What were diapers like in medieval times?

[meenie7]

Okay, I have a story set in a quasi-medieval period (sort of that "fantasy" sort of setting, with magic, but no electricity, etc.), and one of the main characters is a baby. So, I was wondering, what did they do for diapers back then? How did you wash them out well enough, when there weren't washing machines or running water? Do I want to know or will I be scarred for life? :)

Thanks for any help. :)

[Kalhoun]

Not sure about diapers, but there was no such thing as a disposable sanitary napkin when my grandmother was young. You used cloth, folded up to the desired thickness, and you washed them out in a tub of boiling water and hung them in the basement to dry.:eek:

[even sven]

I imagine a lot of the time they just did without- It's really not as bad as it seems. Babies can be semi potty trained very young, and chances are that people back in the day spent a lot of time outdoors and the babies could just go wherever without causing any problems.

Incidently, you can still buy re-usable menstral clothes, such as Lunapads (http://www.lunapads.com/). Now and then when it's not a DivaCup day I'll use one, and I don't really find it any grosser than disposable pads.

[rainy]

Purely anecdotal, but like sven said, when it matters babies can be taught to relieve themselves sort of on command. I know a fellow whose wife is from China. She tells tales of children in the poor rural areas being trained to relieve themselves on command from their mothers, so they don't soil themselves and her. How this is accomplished, I dunno. But she commented that it is possible as earliy as like a year old. You might google something and find this method codified so you could pull something away on the basics.

-rainy

[bordelond]

How did you wash them out well enough, when there weren't washing machines or running water?
Short answer: no one batted an eye at skid marks on used diapers. Tolerance for general "dirtiness" of all types was trememdously higher back then than it is today.

[Nava]

What do you mean, "no running water"? Diapers were washed in the same running water as everything else... down at the river! "No water faucets" is a different problem :)

In Spain the most common cloth during the Middle Ages was flax (normally old rags). My middle brother stilll wore cotton diapers (washed by hand), the youngest one already got disposables. We got potty trained before age two. Giovanni Guareschi mentions toddlers in rural settings (1940s-1960s) wearing dresses with the back pinned up so they could go whenever they needed to; before that, cloth diapers.

Women used the same for menstruation.

[Broomstick]

I've heard that such items as shredded bark, dried moss or peat, or other such absorbent stuff was used by various people without the benefit of Pampers disposables. I'd think wool or cotton, but I'd think those would be too valuable used in cloth to be treated as disposable diaper material. Wonder if Medieval peasants would use such things?

[What Exit?]

The History of Diapers - Disposable & Cloth (http://www.diaperjungle.com/history-of-diapers.html) (Brief)

[stargazer]

Purely anecdotal, but like sven said, when it matters babies can be taught to relieve themselves sort of on command. I know a fellow whose wife is from China. She tells tales of children in the poor rural areas being trained to relieve themselves on command from their mothers, so they don't soil themselves and her. How this is accomplished, I dunno. But she commented that it is possible as earliy as like a year old. You might google something and find this method codified so you could pull something away on the basics.

-rainy

It's called "elimination communication (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elimination_communication)" (at least in the U.S., anyway). Advocates say you can start using it basically immediately after the child is born. (I chose to stick with diapers, thanks.)

[Maastricht]

Toddler clothes used to have a slit on the baby's bottom. Whenever the baby squatted down, the slit would open and poop (hopefully) fall through.

Also practiced in Africa are baby enema's. Mom squirts a jet of water in baby's bum, waits a bit, and baby empties himself. Most moms get quite practices at this, and can squirt a jet of water very precise and powerful through their teeth.

[clayton_e]

Wait.. she has to use her mouth to squirt the water in?

I'd assume, unless she's got cheeks that can provide Super Soaker strength blasts of water, she'd have to be pretty much touching the baby's anus, right?

[Lemur866]

It's called "elimination communication (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elimination_communication)" (at least in the U.S., anyway). Advocates say you can start using it basically immediately after the child is born. (I chose to stick with diapers, thanks.)

Yeah, it's more training the parents--whoops, I mean mother--to notice when the kid has to eliminate rather than training the kid. When the baby is about to eliminate you pull them out and hold them over an appropriate recepticle. This only really works when you've got the baby attached to you constantly.

[Goodle]

Having been to a few third world countries young children usually just walk around without any bottoms on. When they have to go they just squat where they are. I would assume things were the same in medieval times.

[StuffLikeThatThere]

Babies were going without diapers in the early 1900s in the US. My husband's aunt was born around the turn of the century (she's now deceased) and she told stories of walking up to someone's porch and seeing little baby turds lying there. When babies were young and it was warm, you put them in dresses and let them roam around outside. And didn't worry too much about when they pooped.

Yeah, it squicks us out, but we're kind of wimpy these days. :)

[Kolga]

It's called "elimination communication (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elimination_communication)" (at least in the U.S., anyway). Advocates say you can start using it basically immediately after the child is born. (I chose to stick with diapers, thanks.)

Yeah, it's more training the parents--whoops, I mean mother--to notice when the kid has to eliminate rather than training the kid. When the baby is about to eliminate you pull them out and hold them over an appropriate recepticle. This only really works when you've got the baby attached to you constantly.

Yea, I and my friends describe it as yet another attempt to force women to be completely and solely focused on their babies to the exclusion of absolutely everything else in their lives. And to create more work for modern women.

[Bookkeeper]

Medieval Diapering (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diapering) :)

[meenie7]

Gah! Seems like I'll have to use some artistic liberty...most of the story consists of the main girl and the little baby having a long adventure together, where she's not sitting around the house staring at him, waiting for him to poop, so he needs some sort of diaper.

Also...skid marks, ewww :P

[Kimstu]

Also...skid marks, ewww :P

Are you sure you've got the stomach for writing a quasi-historical novel in a medieval setting? :dubious: :) There were a LOT grosser aspects of medieval domestic life than poop stains on washed and reused diapers. (Frinstance, fleas, lice, re-used bathwater and open sewers, just to name a few off the top of my head.)

[Lemur866]

Gah! Seems like I'll have to use some artistic liberty...most of the story consists of the main girl and the little baby having a long adventure together, where she's not sitting around the house staring at him, waiting for him to poop, so he needs some sort of diaper.

Also...skid marks, ewww :P

If the baby is a toddler, then the dress mentioned above is the best solution. No diaper needed, the baby just poops and pees whenever the mood strikes. Occasionally the baby butt gets cleaned.

[meenie7]

Are you sure you've got the stomach for writing a quasi-historical novel in a medieval setting? :dubious: :) There were a LOT grosser aspects of medieval domestic life than poop stains on washed and reused diapers. (Frinstance, fleas, lice, re-used bathwater and open sewers, just to name a few off the top of my head.)

Well, it's not really quasi-historical...I'm working out how much has to be chalked up to magic to make it not too gross to appeal to kids. I hate to avoid the toileting issue entirely, because that makes it look like I didn't think about it, like he just doesn't poop or something, heh.

I hate having to do lots of magical handwaving. I like history but, sorry, poop stains are disgusting. :P

[What Exit?]

Well, it's not really quasi-historical...I'm working out how much has to be chalked up to magic to make it not too gross to appeal to kids. I hate to avoid the toileting issue entirely, because that makes it look like I didn't think about it, like he just doesn't poop or something, heh.

I hate having to do lots of magical handwaving. I like history but, sorry, poop stains are disgusting. :P

So can you include a magic diaper/nappie from a strange great aunt?

[meenie7]

If the baby is a toddler, then the dress mentioned above is the best solution. No diaper needed, the baby just poops and pees whenever the mood strikes. Occasionally the baby butt gets cleaned.

The baby is newborn to six months old in the story, and he's a boy, so a dress is out. :)

[meenie7]

So can you include a magic diaper/nappie from a strange great aunt?

I could, I guess. :) At the moment, I have the "mommy" character (a teenage girl -- shock, horror :P) making disposable diapers by magic, then making them disappear when they're dirty. But that's...very magic-y. I don't want one of those societies where everything is possible through magic, so there's no struggle or anything.

[sailor]

Kai dang ku (http://images.google.com/images?um=1&hl=en&safe=off&q=kaidangku)

[rainy]

The baby is newborn to six months old in the story, and he's a boy, so a dress is out. :)

Actually my oldest brother, who is 58, is pictured as a baby in a dress. This whole pants for babies is pretty new.

[Moirai]

Kai dang ku (http://images.google.com/images?um=1&hl=en&safe=off&q=kaidangku)

Many kaidangku are quite baggy, so you don't notice right away that they are split. When my grandparents were visiting China, my grandma was taking a picture of a cute toddler, when he abruptly squatted. Great vacation shot! ;)

[Lissla Lissar]

Yeah. Until the early twentieth century, both boys and girls wore dresses until age two or three.

[meenie7]

Kai dang ku (http://images.google.com/images?um=1&hl=en&safe=off&q=kaidangku)

I think baby ass in a story meant for kids is...a little too real.

Not to mention that the idea of people just letting their kids randomly shit everywhere like naughty dogs is really, really gross. :P

Why does reality have to be so icky in this case? :(

[rainy]

Let me ask you this; if your story was set in modern times, would you devote any pages to changing a disposable diaper?

I suspect not, unless it somehow lent itself to moving the plot along. For example, if while in the restroom the mother met an important character, or ducking into the restroom to change a diaper confused someone following our protagonist into thinking she had already left.

So why would you devote any more time to it in a quasi-historical / not-really-historical novel. I can understand touching on it in passing if you wanted to educate the reader. There is actually a passage in one of Jean Auel's novels where a female character carrying a baby holds it out so it can pee (I think) as they are walking along. I think Auel is trying to communicate some of the lifestyle of the time period. But Auel's level of detail is determental to her storyline in a lot of cases. YMMV.

[meenie7]

Well, I was thinking about it more as, there would be occasional references/glimpses of a diaper, and I wanted to make it a reasonable diaper for the era -- made of leaves, bark, skins, whatever people used. I didn't expect to hear that the whole world used to be a minefield of baby shit. :(

[jayjay]

I didn't expect to hear that the whole world used to be a minefield of baby shit. :(

What makes you think it was just baby shit?

[meenie7]

What makes you think it was just baby shit?

I don't. This just contributes to the general shittiness. :)

And unlike, say, horses, who are just animals and can't help pooping in the street, babies are humans, cared for by other humans, and I had thought that some care would have been taken, that's all.

[Freudian Slit]

What makes you think it was just baby shit?

There was spit up, too, right?

I don't. This just contributes to the general shittiness. :)

And unlike, say, horses, who are just animals and can't help pooping in the street, babies are humans, cared for by other humans, and I had thought that some care would have been taken, that's all.

I think that was them taking care. It was just a lot more effort back then.

[Colibri]

What makes you think it was just baby shit?

Yeah, when people rode horses everywhere, and cows and pigs roamed freely about, baby shit was pretty inconsequential.

[WhyNot]

The baby is newborn to six months old in the story, and he's a boy, so a dress is out. :) A dress on a boy infant is WAY more historically accurate than a magic disposable diaper, y'know...

Well, I was thinking about it more as, there would be occasional references/glimpses of a diaper, and I wanted to make it a reasonable diaper for the era -- made of leaves, bark, skins, whatever people used. I didn't expect to hear that the whole world used to be a minefield of baby shit. :(
If you're dealing with a fantasy realm (as you are, if there's magic), then make it whatever you like. The easiest thing for today's young readers to visualize will be a cloth, wrapped and tucked or tied to stay shut. That's certainly within the realm of Stuff People Used Once Upon A Time.

If she's traveling and doesn't want to wash it regularly, she'd pack the cloth itself with something more disposable, like leaves or shredded twigs or wool gathered from fences or thornbushes along the path she's walking. Anything not too stiff that can be contained and kept in place by a cloth and then discarded when wet or poopy. Chances are very good that someone who's traveling is going to be improvising each day, not stopping off at Ye Oldde Walgreene's for the same diapering option all the time.

[meenie7]

If you're dealing with a fantasy realm (as you are, if there's magic), then make it whatever you like. The easiest thing for today's young readers to visualize will be a cloth, wrapped and tucked or tied to stay shut. That's certainly within the realm of Stuff People Used Once Upon A Time.

If she's traveling and doesn't want to wash it regularly, she'd pack the cloth itself with something more disposable, like leaves or shredded twigs or wool gathered from fences or thornbushes along the path she's walking. Anything not too stiff that can be contained and kept in place by a cloth and then discarded when wet or poopy. Chances are very good that someone who's traveling is going to be improvising each day, not stopping off at Ye Oldde Walgreene's for the same diapering option all the time.

Thanks. I never thought of there being wool on fences but I guess there would be when there are sheep about.

I think I will allow her magic cleaning spells, since I'm taking away the magical Pampers spell. And it would just be too confusing to have the baby in a dress (this story is being written with an eye to it having a visual component) so we will have to make a small exception and give him a little medieval onesie. :)

[KGS]

What makes you think it was just baby shit? Indeed, not just baby shit, but people shit. Indoor plumbing, public toilets, and personal hygiene in general are all very recent innovations. The Palace of Versailles, for example, was original built without bathrooms; nobles and servants alike would use the staircases, gardens, and other places to pee and poop, if they didn't have access to a chamberpot (which were often emptied by tossing the contents out the nearest window.) From here (http://209.85.173.132/search?q=cache:3GEogNCKwEUJ:www.gardenvisit.com/history_theory/library_online_ebooks/ml_gothein_history_garden_art_design/versailles_louis_xvi_marie_antoinette+versailles+stairs+urinate&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=us):
One thinks of Versailles as the grandest palace in Europe must also have been it most luxurious. ‘In actuality Versailles was a vast cesspool, reeking of filth and befouled with ordure…The odor clung to clothes,wigs, even undergarments. Worst of all, beggars, servants, and aristocratic visitors alike used the stairs, the corridors, any out-of-the-way place to relieve themselves….“I shall never get over the dirt of this country,” Horace Walpole grumbled, and he had travelled extensively. The approach to Versailles, the English agreed, was magnificent, along wide roads shaded with stately trees. But the squalor inside was unspeakable.’ (C Erickson, To the scaffold the life of Marie Antoinette Robson Books 2000 p. 114 ) The courtyards were also foul: ‘The passages, the court yards, the wings and the corridors were full of urine and fecal matter. The park, the gardens and the chateau made one retch with their bad smell’ (André Castelot, Queen of France: A Biograpby of Marie Antoinette, trans. Denise Folliot (New York, 1957), p. 83).

[WhyNot]

Thanks. I never thought of there being wool on fences but I guess there would be when there are sheep about.
Yes, actually, tons! I was surprised how much wool was stuck on the rough stone walls when I was walking around in Ireland. I managed to easily gather a handful just aimlessly. If I'd been intent on it, I'm sure I could have picked up enough in an hour to pack a few nappies.

Now, I don't know what the legal situation (then or now) would be - it might get her into trouble with whomever had legal ownership of that wool. Could be the sheep's owner, or the shepherd, or a local poor widow with gleaning rights. If it'd be useful for your story, I'm sure there would have been some time and place where picking the wool out of the bushes would get you into trouble with the locals. At least, were it in a story like yours, I'd not question it.

[Nava]

Well, it's not really quasi-historical...I'm working out how much has to be chalked up to magic to make it not too gross to appeal to kids. I hate to avoid the toileting issue entirely, because that makes it look like I didn't think about it, like he just doesn't poop or something, heh.

Does anybody remember a novel where characters poop or pee? Other than the aforementioned description in a Guareschi short story... I don't think I've got much. The few times anything like that is mentioned, it's either with the intent to show the reader how "primitive" the people Our Valiant Hero is now with are (for example, Our Valiant Hero asks for the outhouse and gets directed to a ditch), or to provide a chance for someone to approach Our Valiant Hero on his way to the outhouse (rather than in the crowded inn, you never see someone going to the outhouse in a farm, only at inns).

[Nava]

A stanza from a classic Spanish Christmas Carol:

La Virgen lava pañales
y los tiende en el romero
los pajarillos le cantan
y el agua se va riendo.

Our Lady washes diapers
hangs them on the rosemary bushes
the birds sing to her
the water leaves laughing.

For the people who wrote that and who've sung it for centuries, cloth diapers that got washed daily were nothing squicky.


(Out of time, sorry)

[mmmiiikkkeee]

Actually my oldest brother, who is 58, is pictured as a baby in a dress. This whole pants for babies is pretty new.


I'm a 31 year-old male. I can show you pictures of ME in a dress (but I won't)... I was born in a big city but my mom was basically born on a trapline in the woods.

[Aspidistra]

Does anybody remember a novel where characters poop or pee? Other than the aforementioned description in a Guareschi short story... I don't think I've got much. The few times anything like that is mentioned, it's either with the intent to show the reader how "primitive" the people Our Valiant Hero is now with are (for example, Our Valiant Hero asks for the outhouse and gets directed to a ditch), or to provide a chance for someone to approach Our Valiant Hero on his way to the outhouse (rather than in the crowded inn, you never see someone going to the outhouse in a farm, only at inns).

Actually, the premise of the OP made me think of a similar scenario in a novel - Dave Duncan's Seventh Sword (http://www.daveduncan.com/ss/index.html) trilogy. One of the hero's companions on his Great Quest is a baby around 6 months, who pees all over the hero at first meeting.

Apart from that the baby does pretty much nothing during the entire course of the series, and is entirely irrelevant to the plot. However, given that his mother has been enslaved into prostitution, it's highly realistic that he exists. Great story, BTW

[even sven]

Not to mention that the idea of people just letting their kids randomly shit everywhere like naughty dogs is really, really gross. :P(

To be fair, they think our practice of letting a baby stew in it's own shit is really gross. And they point out the health consequences- diaper rash, UTIs, etc.

Also note that babies generally don't "randomly shit anywhere." Their caregivers (in China, it's nearly always a grandmother) are very attuned to the kid's responses and needs. In urban settings, most of the time they manage to get the kid over a toilet, basin, or in a pinch a plastic bag. In extremely rural settings- like what you may find in medieval times- adults did their business pretty much out in the open some ways from the house, too. We didn't start worrying too much about sewage until we started urbanizing.

[sailor]

What makes you think it was just baby shit? Look at this documentary about life in medieval England (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grbSQ6O6kbs). There's shit everywhere. - Who's that?
- I dunno. Must be a king.
- Why?
- He doesn't have shit all over him.

[Scougs]

I'm reminded of the film Willow, which deals with a baby travelling in a quasi-medieval fantasy setting.

There's a line something like "You will look after her, won't you? Here's her milk... and her changing rags...."

So, it doesn't dwell on the subject, but for a brief moment the viewer is reminded that they didn't exactly have Pampers on hand, and rags would have to be used (and presumably washed).

[meenie7]

Okay, a question:

Their caregivers (in China, it's nearly always a grandmother) are very attuned to the kid's responses and needs.

Why is it usually a grandmother? Why doesn't the mom take care of the kid? Or do you mean that the grandma watches the kid while the mom is at work, instead of day care? (which makes total sense, if she's available to do it.)

Also...in China, the whole split pants thing is done in "urbanized" areas, isn't it, not just in the middle of rural farmland? Even if they're not pooping, amend my statement to "peeing in the street like a naughty dog" and it still stands. If a kid gets diaper rash, that only affects the kid. Peeing in the street affects the experience of everyone who has to use that street, the majority of whom had no hand or choice in making a kid, and some of whom probably don't even like kids. A dog is just an animal, but people and the caretakers of people should be held to a higher standard, I would think. Do you know how they defend that aspect of it? I'm curious.

[jayjay]

Do you know how they defend that aspect of it? I'm curious.

What's to defend? Everyone they know does it. The only people squawking are hoity-toity foreigners that they never actually see or speak to. That would be like asking "How do the Americans defend nuclear families when it's obvious that all generations should live together and take care of each other?"

[even sven]

I am not Chinese, and I haven't lived here too long.

In my understanding, in general parents live with their children, especially if there is an infant in the house. In my host-family, the sets of grandparents switched off, living with my host parents for a few weeks at a time. The grandparents will act as primary caregiver and do most of the housekeeping (cooking, etc.) so that the parents can continue their busy lives. Of course the mothers will continue to care for the baby before and after work, but the grandparents do most of the real work. On any Chinese street, day or night, you'll see hundreds of grandmothers fussing over infants. In general, it seems to work. The old people continue to be useful, get provided for, and seem to really enjoy being around the grandkids. The parents get to focus on their careers without putting off childbearing as late as we do. And the children get tons (maybe too much) attention.

Yeah, babies do end up peeing on the ground pretty often. Chinese regard the ground a bit different than Americans. For example, during meal (even in a home or a mid-range restaurant) it's expected to throw bones, peanut shells, etc. on the ground. It will be cleaned up later. Nobody worries about it. Baby pee isn't seen as too big of a problem. And then there is the infamous (and pretty gross) spitting. On the other hand, there are people working 24/7 sweeping the streets and the street washing machines come by every morning. And you ever, ever wear your shoes inside, since they've been on the dirty street. It's just a really different view of what is "clean" space and what is "dirty" space.

[Moirai]

meenie7, do you mind me asking how old you are? You seem very young from your posts in this thread, and a bit lacking in knowledge of the world outside your immediate area, either in the past or the present.

No offense, it just sounds like a lack of a decent worldview, and that might be because you're young.

[clairobscur]

What makes you think it was just baby shit?

There wouldn't have been a lot of poop lying around. Like animal manure, human dejections were collected and used as fertilizer. People might not have been clean, but they weren't wasteful.

[Lemur866]

If you have to take care of an infant you get over your aversion to the various fluids and substances that babies excrete, or you put the baby in a basket on the church steps. You deal with poop and pee and spit-up all day every day, and it goes everywhere. And you just shrug your shoulders and clean it up.

One more thing...if this baby is six months old, what is it eating? There wasn't any formula in medieval times, and cow's milk or goat's milk won'tsubstitute. Either the baby's mother nurses the baby, or another lactating woman nurses the baby, or the baby dies.

[Freudian Slit]

Indeed, not just baby shit, but people shit. Indoor plumbing, public toilets, and personal hygiene in general are all very recent innovations. The Palace of Versailles, for example, was original built without bathrooms; nobles and servants alike would use the staircases, gardens, and other places to pee and poop, if they didn't have access to a chamberpot (which were often emptied by tossing the contents out the nearest window.)

Why am I suddenly reminded of Blackadder II?

"Well, what we're talking about in, erm, privy terms is the very latest in front-wall, fresh-air orifices, combined with a wide-capacity gutter installation below."
"You mean you crap out a window?"
"Yes."
"Oh, good. We'll take it, I can't stand those dirty indoor things."

[Le Ministre de l'au-delà]

You may find Terry Jones' Medieval Lives (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_Jones'_Medieval_Lives) interesting, particularly the first episode about the peasant. One of the things he mentions is that all food had to be boiled for at least two hours because the fields were fertilized with fresh human excrement and therefore a fantastic source of e-coli bacteria (not that they knew about bacteria, mind, just that they knew the lettuce would make you sick if it wasn't boiled. Is this the distant source of British desire to boil everything until it's brown? Hmm...)

[WhyNot]

One more thing...if this baby is six months old, what is it eating? There wasn't any formula in medieval times, and cow's milk or goat's milk won'tsubstitute. Either the baby's mother nurses the baby, or another lactating woman nurses the baby, or the baby dies.

Goat's milk is a perfectly fine substitute milk for a 6 month old. A six week old and it's a little more dicey, although it was (is) still done when there was no breastmilk to be had. Goat milk is better, nutrient percentage wise, than cow's milk, actually. The balance of fats to proteins to sugars is closer to human milk than cow's milk is.

At 6 months, technically, the baby can digest solids. Might not be the healthiest baby on the block, but babies weren't expected to be terribly healthy in those days anyhow. ("Those days" being post-agriculture, pre-industrial.) To feed solids, the caregiver will either have to chop foods up very fine (a bitch of a job before food processors) or simply chew up the food, spit it into her hand, and feed the baby pre-chewed mush.

Sorry, did I just blow the OP's mind? I won't mention nibbling on the baby's fingernails to trim them, then.

[Freudian Slit]

Sorry, did I just blow the OP's mind? I won't mention nibbling on the baby's fingernails to trim them, then.

Or biting off the umbilical cord?

Still, for nails, wouldn't they just break if they got long enough? Or are babies inactive enough that they don't?

[meenie7]

meenie7, do you mind me asking how old you are? You seem very young from your posts in this thread, and a bit lacking in knowledge of the world outside your immediate area, either in the past or the present.

No offense, it just sounds like a lack of a decent worldview, and that might be because you're young.

I'm 29.

I think you guys are getting the wrong impression, anyway. I know the middle ages were gross and everything was dirty. I really like history and I'm not ignorant...but it's not naive to say that poop everywhere is gross, even if it was true.

Also, in reply to the formula thing, she makes formula with magic, too. She has to...the baby isn't hers (in fact, he isn't anyone's -- he's a person with an adult mind who's been made a baby by a magic spell gone wrong) and he doesn't have teeth so he needs something to drink.

WhyNot -- hee hee. My mind is...a little amazed that anyone survived eating ABC food like that, but not blown, yet. :)

[Lemur866]

To feed solids, the caregiver will either have to chop foods up very fine (a bitch of a job before food processors) or simply chew up the food, spit it into her hand, and feed the baby pre-chewed mush.

Why bother with the hand? You chew up the food, kiss the baby on the mouth and push the food in with your tongue.

[Lemur866]

I'm 29.

I think you guys are getting the wrong impression, anyway. I know the middle ages were gross and everything was dirty. I really like history and I'm not ignorant...but it's not naive to say that poop everywhere is gross, even if it was true.

Another nitpick! Poop from a typical healthy breast fed baby isn't gross. Yes, I'm seriously claiming that my baby's shit didn't stink---it kind of smelled like yogurt or buttered popcorn.

Until she started eating solid foods. After that, it was like a toxic waste dump crawled up her ass and died.

[meenie7]

even sven, thank you for your informative answer :) If you look at that way -- that there's an assumption that the ground is really dirty and so you don't track it in the house, etc. -- it makes more sense. (I knew it was traditional to take off your shoes before you go in the house there, but now I know why, in part. :))

It's nice to have a perspective from someone like you, from the U.S., looking at foreign cultures. I hope I get the chance to travel someday outside the U.S. (Sadly, I've never been able to afford it, even though I want to.)

[Freudian Slit]

I'd always read that baby poop doesn't stink for the first few weeks (so the parents don't kill it out of disgust before they get attached?) and then it gets bad. Hmmm. This is a really good reason to breast feed if what you're saying is true, Lemur!

[WhyNot]

Still, for nails, wouldn't they just break if they got long enough? Or are babies inactive enough that they don't? The biggest problem with long nails on a baby is that they're sharp. They scratch their little faces with them, and then you've got infection vectors. To be honest, the nibble-off-their-nails thing isn't a Ye Olden Days thing. Mothering boards are full of that particular piece of advice to modern moms afraid of cutting off their kids' fingertips with nail clippers. I did it with my first kid. (I'd had more practice with nail clippers and an education that babies aren't that fragile by the time I had my second kid.) But I don't remember the last time I cut my daughter's toenails. They do just seem to break off when they need to. Or they're really slow growing...

Why bother with the hand? You chew up the food, kiss the baby on the mouth and push the food in with your tongue. I guess you could, but I'd be worried about choking the baby like that. My fingers give me more control over the speed and texture of things going in and coming back out.


(Hmm...I wonder if this is going to post right...I'm not seeing the last few posts when I preview, and I can't seem to quote Lemur's post automatically. I sense the database is about to take a nosedive again...)

[What Exit?]

From what I can recall that was basically true for my kids as my wife breast fed them. I don't honestly recall all that well though.

[meenie7]

Another nitpick! Poop from a typical healthy breast fed baby isn't gross. Yes, I'm seriously claiming that my baby's shit didn't stink---it kind of smelled like yogurt or buttered popcorn.

Really? That's interesting. I know that a breast-fed baby's poop is very runny, and I think I'd heard that it wasn't so bad in smell -- but the person I was talking to was talking about it in contrast to formula-fed baby poop, which they claimed smelled like something dreamed up by Satan. :)

[Nava]

Also, in reply to the formula thing, she makes formula with magic, too. She has to...the baby isn't hers (in fact, he isn't anyone's -- he's a person with an adult mind who's been made a baby by a magic spell gone wrong) and he doesn't have teeth so he needs something to drink.

But why? Does she do this when she finds an available source of milk (say, she stops at an inn where they have goats)?

I can understand having to pull the "oh noes there must be a magical source" when you don't have another one, but it's way too much of a deus ex-machina when you use it for things like diapers or milk substitutes. People did such things as travel with a goat or, if they could afford a horse, a mare that had foaled and either lost the foal or it could be fed by a different mare. They used almond milk or chufas milk, both obtained by marinating the nuts in water (so it's something portable, you can stick the nuts in a skin with water and let it stew - sorry, I don't know what are chufas called in English).

[Lemur866]

Apparently chufa is called "tigernut" in english, but I've never heard of it before.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chufa

[meenie7]

But why? Does she do this when she finds an available source of milk (say, she stops at an inn where they have goats)?

I can understand having to pull the "oh noes there must be a magical source" when you don't have another one, but it's way too much of a deus ex-machina when you use it for things like diapers or milk substitutes. People did such things as travel with a goat or, if they could afford a horse, a mare that had foaled and either lost the foal or it could be fed by a different mare. They used almond milk or chufas milk, both obtained by marinating the nuts in water (so it's something portable, you can stick the nuts in a skin with water and let it stew - sorry, I don't know what are chufas called in English).

Travelling with a goat or horse is not practical in their case (they do most of the travel by flying broom) but nuts in a water skin would be totally doable. I didn't know that's how you made almond milk (I thought it was really, really pureed almonds...)

You're right about the magic though...that's why I asked about the diapers, I didn't want it to be too "magic everything!" where there is no tension...

[jayjay]

How does magic work in this world? If she can just "make" formula by magic, what's the limiting factor that keeps her from just shrinking a goat down to fit in her pocket and then unshrinking it when it's time for the baby to eat? What are the limitations on the broom that she can't find an inn that has a nanny goat for milk each night? Is it just that we're not hearing the whole spec of magic in the story world that it seems pretty random and difficult to find an excuse NOT to deus ex machina?

Edited to add: I think part of what's bugging me about it is that there's way too much of a modern worldview going on with this main character. Nappies? Formula? It almost sounds more like a "modern girl magically lost in a fantasy world" trope.

[Freudian Slit]

The biggest problem with long nails on a baby is that they're sharp. They scratch their little faces with them, and then you've got infection vectors. To be honest, the nibble-off-their-nails thing isn't a Ye Olden Days thing. Mothering boards are full of that particular piece of advice to modern moms afraid of cutting off their kids' fingertips with nail clippers. I did it with my first kid. (I'd had more practice with nail clippers and an education that babies aren't that fragile by the time I had my second kid.) But I don't remember the last time I cut my daughter's toenails. They do just seem to break off when they need to. Or they're really slow growing...

Ohhh. The more you know!

Can't the answer to anything we don't know just be, "Uh, a wizard did it"?

[meenie7]

How does magic work in this world? If she can just "make" formula by magic, what's the limiting factor that keeps her from just shrinking a goat down to fit in her pocket and then unshrinking it when it's time for the baby to eat? What are the limitations on the broom that she can't find an inn that has a nanny goat for milk each night? Is it just that we're not hearing the whole spec of magic in the story world that it seems pretty random and difficult to find an excuse NOT to deus ex machina?

Edited to add: I think part of what's bugging me about it is that there's way too much of a modern worldview going on with this main character. Nappies? Formula? It almost sounds more like a "modern girl magically lost in a fantasy world" trope.

Well, to take the last point first, I am a modern girl, after all. I'm trying to get some better understanding of the way things were back then, to decide how to make the little details more real, in a way that's not too disgusting for a modern audience.

As for the magic, the young witch is limited by the fact that she's not very good at magic -- small effects like making formula appear are possible but hard, and she makes a lot of mistakes. Something like making a mini-goat would be far beyond her abilities. (At one point, when trying to make the first diaper for the baby, she almost burns him, then turns his hair green.) The non-magical alternatives people have offered here will be very useful, I think.

[medstar]

I was wondering--when do babies start noticing that their diapers are full and smelly and they want them changed? Is it soon after birth or around six months of age? Are any babies nonchalant about a dirty diaper or do they want to be changed NOW! I don't have much experience with babies after all.

[stargazer]

My 18-month-old son doesn't care at all if his diaper needs changing. Doesn't matter if it's wet or dirty, he doesn't seem to notice. What surprises us is that he doesn't even seem to notice the smell of a dirty diaper! Once we smell it, it's off to the changing table, but he will play happily until we nab him. He's never cared about the state of his diaper, as far as we could tell.

I believe this varies from baby to baby, though -- a friend has a baby who can't stand for her diaper to be wet. I figure they'll potty train muuuuuch earlier than we will.