Should Obama salute military people? [Archive]

Squink

02-11-2009, 08:48 AM

Longstanding tradition requires members of the military to salute the president. The practice of presidents returning that salute is more recent — Ronald Reagan started it in 1981.
Reagan’s decision raised eyebrows at the time. Dwight Eisenhower, a former five-star general, did not return military salutes while president. Nor had other presidents
John Kline, then Reagan’s military aide and now a Minnesota congressman, advised him that it went against military protocol for presidents to return salutes.Reagan is dead, let this particular idiocy die with him. (http://blogs.reuters.com/frontrow/2008/12/24/to-salute-or-not-to-salute-thats-obamas-question/)

BarnOwl

02-11-2009, 08:59 AM

Curiously you didn't feel the need to ask this question a month ago about the CIC...

You think I'm a Bushie? :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D
Au contraire!

What's more, I am a big Obama booster.

I used to grind my teeth whenever I saw W's snappy
military salutes. But I chose to abide by GD rules and
refrain from political pronouncements.

furt

02-11-2009, 09:02 AM

On the merits, I'm indifferent.

Politically, this is a hornet's nest Obama is thankfully wise enough to avoid.

BarnOwl

02-11-2009, 09:07 AM

On the merits, I'm indifferent.

Politically, this is a hornet's nest Obama is thankfully wise enough to avoid.

You're probably right.

The GOP would howl if Obama didn't salute.

spifflog

02-11-2009, 09:10 AM

In the US, military personnel salute the civilian leadership. If said leadership doesn't salute back, they're gonna look kinda like jerks.

Where did you get that?!?!?

The only civilian that we salute in the President. That gets debated periodically, but most don't have heart ache with that.

I've seen SecDef greeted by military officers, and I've not seen then salute even him.

spifflog

02-11-2009, 09:12 AM

You think I'm a Bushie? :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D
Au contraire!

What's more, I am a big Obama booster.

I used to grind my teeth whenever I saw W's snappy
military salutes. But I chose to abide by GD rules and
refrain from political pronouncements.

I'm pretty middle of the road when it comes to Bush, but at least he could salute. Your boy Clinton though, clearly didin't want to salute and it showed!

Giles

02-11-2009, 09:14 AM

The GOP would howl if Obama didn't salute.
Perhaps they would. However, the current POTUS (like most of his precedessors) is not a member of the military, and never has been: he is a civilian, even though he is Commander in Chief, and so should not salute.

BarnOwl

02-11-2009, 09:15 AM

Where did you get that?!?!?

The only civilian that we salute in the President. That gets debated periodically, but most don't have heart ache with that.

I've seen SecDef greeted by military officers, and I've not seen then salute even him.

And if not saluting was good enough for Ike...

Here's an ex-military guy who stopped returning salutes because he knew it was
inappropriate as a civilian.

askeptic

02-11-2009, 09:20 AM

This is one of those Catch-22 things. Some people are going to say he should not do it. If he doesn't do it THOSE SAME PEOPLE are going to say "OMG he disrespected the soldiers, they saluted him and he didn't return it."

Reagan started it a quarter of a century ago. I see good reasons why the president should do it and good reasons why he shouldn't. I say Obama and the country have more important things to worry about and he should spend time worrying about those things rather than this thing.

Mr. Moto

02-11-2009, 09:26 AM

And if not saluting was good enough for Ike...

Here's an ex-military guy who stopped returning salutes because he knew it was
inappropriate as a civilian.

I don't think that he ever returned salutes as president. He sure did as an active duty Army officer. And let's be clear about what a returned salute means - it is an acknowledgment of respect given and a return of it.

Now, custom dictates that military personnel salute the president because he is commander-in-chief. Now, Reagan had once been active duty Army, though in a rear-echelon support job in California. He thought that a salute rendered ought to be returned for the reasons I gave above and started to do so. Presidents since him have continued to do this.

I don't mind it, myself, but I don't think the world turns on it either.

BarnOwl

02-11-2009, 09:31 AM

I don't think that he ever returned salutes as president. He sure did as an active duty Army officer. And let's be clear about what a returned salute means - it is an acknowledgment of respect given and a return of it.

Now, custom dictates that military personnel salute the president because he is commander-in-chief. Now, Reagan had once been active duty Army, though in a rear-echelon support job in California. He thought that a salute rendered ought to be returned for the reasons I gave above and started to do so. Presidents since him have continued to do this.

I don't mind it, myself, but I don't think the world turns on it either.

Agreed. It's a small matter.

I think both sides have had their say, and request the mods to close this thread

brownie55

02-11-2009, 09:40 AM

I don't think that he ever returned salutes as president. He sure did as an active duty Army officer. And let's be clear about what a returned salute means - it is an acknowledgment of respect given and a return of it.

Now, custom dictates that military personnel salute the president because he is commander-in-chief. Now, Reagan had once been active duty Army, though in a rear-echelon support job in California. He thought that a salute rendered ought to be returned for the reasons I gave above and started to do so. Presidents since him have continued to do this.

I don't mind it, myself, but I don't think the world turns on it either.

I'd agree with you if the military saluted while out of uniform. Since they don't, it is not apporpriate for the president to return the salute while in civilian clothes. If we get him one of those Banana Republic Generalissimo outfits, then hell yeah, he should snap away.

spifflog

02-11-2009, 09:42 AM

I agree that Obama is in damned if he does, damned if he doesn't territory.

As a military guy, I'd prefer that he return the salute, but most aren't hard over either way. Having said that that when I see a senior military officer in civilian clothes and I salute him because I'm in uniform, they NEVER salute back.

Lanzy

02-11-2009, 09:43 AM

I've seen civilians salute, it looks silly and its wrong, but I never felt the need to tell them that.

Diogenes the Cynic

02-11-2009, 09:51 AM

I'm pretty middle of the road when it comes to Bush, but at least he could salute. Your boy Clinton though, clearly didin't want to salute and it showed!
Clinton saluted. He got criticized by the right for doing it too. It's a no win situation for any Democrat because either choice is spun as contempt for the military by the right.

Personally, I think that if George Washington didn't think there was any need to return a salute, then there's no need for any other CIC to do it. It was a lame thing for Reagan to start (especially since he spent his own "military service" making VD training films on a Hollywood backlot), but now it's just become accepted as normal protocol. I doubt anyone's going to end it.

spifflog

02-11-2009, 09:57 AM

I agree that it will never end. I'm as patrotic as the next guy, but that $1.98 American flag pin (that I think Nixon started) drives me nuts. But Omama took flack for not having that during the election as I recall, so he's screwed either way.

I know that Clinton saluted. My comment was that he looked very uncomfortable doing it.

Paul in Qatar

02-11-2009, 10:00 AM

It is curious how often this comes up. I enjoy US AM talk radio, but rarely have a chance to listen to it. I do remember someone calling (let's say Rush) to say how upset he was the Clinton who never served in the military returned the salute of a Marine someplace. Fast forward a few years and I heard a caller saying how proud he felt when Bush returned the salute of a Marine someplace.

For me, as an old soldier, returning a salute is the most automatic, natural thing in the world.

02-11-2009, 10:17 AM

Personally, I think that if George Washington didn't think there was any need to return a salute, then there's no need for any other CIC to do it. It was a lame thing for Reagan to start (especially since he spent his own "military service" making VD training films on a Hollywood backlot), but now it's just become accepted as normal protocol. I doubt anyone's going to end it.

George Washington felt the need to keep slaves...should we continue that practice too because he felt it was appropriate?

I think this is a minor matter to quibble about. Myself, I'm going to leave it up to Obama...whatever HE thinks is appropriate is pretty much good enough for me wrt saluting the troops.

-XT

ElvisL1ves

02-11-2009, 10:18 AM

If we get him one of those Banana Republic Generalissimo outfits, then hell yeah, he should snap away.
Like the Army version Bush modeled at the "Thanksgiving in Baghdad" photo op, or the Navy flightsuit version from "Mission Accomplished"? I thought those had been ridiculed sufficiently never to appear again.

There's a version he only wore on Air Force One, more of a robe really, that was shown on the NatGeo special about the airplane.

Yes, I do recall the outrage from the Ditto Set about the "draft dodger" Clinton presuming to salute our honorable military personnel, and perhaps having to be coached how.

BTW, Clinton and Obama are both lefties. Does handedness influence the "crispness" of a salute?

Superfluous Parentheses

02-11-2009, 10:21 AM

I never noticed that US presidents did salute. It sounds like a strange thing to do, since they're explicitly not part of the military.

Simplicio

02-11-2009, 10:22 AM

Where did you get that?!?!?

The only civilian that we salute in the President. That gets debated periodically, but most don't have heart ache with that.

I've seen SecDef greeted by military officers, and I've not seen then salute even him.

I've seen both Gates and Rumsfeld saluted,and both men return the salute:

example (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.defendamerica.mil/images/photos/apr2003/essays/pi043003a1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.defendamerica.mil/photoessays/apr2003/p043003a1.html&usg=__2AIkleiy4RuqWNa4nlFTw-m4gBw=&h=342&w=500&sz=36&hl=en&start=19&um=1&tbnid=1VVwVAScg5kjBM:&tbnh=89&tbnw=130&prev=/images%3Fq%3D%2522secretary%2Bof%2Bdefense%2522%2Bsalute%26start%3D18%26ndsp%3D18%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den %26sa%3DN)

other exmaple (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0cqHe5g9sy8ak/610x.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.daylife.com/photo/0cqHe5g9sy8ak&usg=__QKA_3rUYgO2IykIFdG73IeDfCvs=&h=437&w=610&sz=75&hl=en&start=59&um=1&tbnid=jPpqWyI4iOtNYM:&tbnh=97&tbnw=136&prev=/images%3Fq%3D%2522secretary%2Bof%2Bdefense%2522%2Bsalute%26start%3D54%26ndsp%3D18%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den %26sa%3DN)

kaylasdad99

02-11-2009, 10:30 AM

Clinton saluted. He got criticized by the right for doing it too. It's a no win situation for any Democrat because either choice is spun as contempt for the military by the right.A very astute observation, although I think it's phrased too narrowly. What the right spins as contempt for the military is being a Democrat.

spifflog

02-11-2009, 10:43 AM

I've seen both Gates and Rumsfeld saluted,and both men return the salute:

I stand corrected.

While the Gates salute is in a ceremony, which I really don't count (in those things, your mother could be saluted), I'm surprised at the Rumsfeld salute. As a military aid to a very senior navy civilian, I've seen him travel with SecDef frequently, and I've not seen either saluted.

I'll amend. NORMALLY, the only civilian to get saluted is the President.

Mr. Moto

02-11-2009, 12:06 PM

I seem to recall that the criticism Clinton got was for a sloppy and casual salute - he tightened it up over the years.

Diogenes the Cynic

02-11-2009, 12:12 PM

Tom Tildrum

02-11-2009, 04:26 PM

No, it was for saluting at all. I remember it clearly. They also critiqued his execution, but that was an additional attack, not the central one. I remember Limbaugh saying it was ok for Reagan and Bush I to have returned salutes because they'd been in the military, but that Clinton had no right because he was a civilian.

There were also rumors (http://www.snopes.com/politics/clintons/salute.asp), debunked by Snopes, that the military was declining to salute Clinton.

Ají de Gallina

02-11-2009, 04:42 PM

How do you acknowledge, as a civilian, a military salute? Handshake/hugg/kiss/bow/nod would not do if saluting a large number of soldiers. Maybe he could shake hands with the top guy.

Of course, a military salute kid of feels like a non-Catholic saluting the Pope by kissing his ring. I'm sure there are rules for that.

That's what your chief protocol-guy gets paid for. Ask him.

BarnOwl

02-11-2009, 04:50 PM

How do you acknowledge, as a civilian, a military salute? Handshake/hugg/kiss/bow/nod would not do if saluting a large number of soldiers. Maybe he could shake hands with the top guy.

Rank isn't important.

The President is forever getting off and on planes and every time there's at least one military man to salute or not.

I say stop, but like the sensible Dopers above, I ralize this is hardly worth his consideration right now. Too much important stuff is going on right now.

02-11-2009, 04:57 PM

I think it comes down to the personal idiosyncrasies of each President. Each of them has to decide what they feel is most appropriate for them. I'm perfectly happy letting Obama decide whatever he thinks is best on this subject. When some of you 'dopers who are opposed are elected to the President I'll be happy to leave that decision in your hands as well. ;)

-XT

Revenant Threshold

02-11-2009, 06:24 PM

And let's be clear about what a returned salute means - it is an acknowledgment of respect given and a return of it. These are politicians we're talking about. It likely has as much to do with public perception than it does about respect. Beyond that, i'd argue there's a case to be made that the saluting of a President is a sign of respect for the office, not the person who happens to occupy it, and that even talking about the differences between Presidents and criticism thereof suggests we tend to think it's the person saluting back - which to me seems rather a mistake.

Bryan Ekers

02-11-2009, 06:59 PM

Can't this just be left to the discretion of the President? Does everything have to be analyzed?

Squink

02-11-2009, 07:34 PM

Can't this just be left to the discretion of the President? Does everything have to be analyzed?Probably. Still, I like the way US code deals with the President on flag related issues:TITLE 4 > CHAPTER 1 > § 10 (http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode04/usc_sec_04_00000010----000-.html)

§ 10. Modification of rules and customs by President

Any rule or custom pertaining to the display of the flag of the United States of America, set forth herein, may be altered, modified, or repealed, or additional rules with respect thereto may be prescribed, by the Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces of the United States, whenever he deems it to be appropriate or desirable; and any such alteration or additional rule shall be set forth in a proclamation.It's nice to know that Obama doesn't have to wear one of those flag pins, if he doesn't want to.

nameless

02-11-2009, 08:23 PM

How do you acknowledge, as a civilian, a military salute?I think we all know the answer to this. Terrorist fist jab.

Mr. Moto

02-11-2009, 08:31 PM

Beyond that, i'd argue there's a case to be made that the saluting of a President is a sign of respect for the office, not the person who happens to occupy it, and that even talking about the differences between Presidents and criticism thereof suggests we tend to think it's the person saluting back - which to me seems rather a mistake.

That's true regardless of whether the president is involved in the salute though - do you think enlisted personnel respect personally all the officers they salute? Or the officers all of the enlisted personnel or junior officers whose salutes they return?

At all times it is a mark of institutional respect, and as such it has its place.

Spiny Norman

02-11-2009, 10:38 PM

How do you acknowledge, as a civilian, a military salute? Handshake/hugg/kiss/bow/nod would not do if saluting a large number of soldiers. Maybe he could shake hands with the top guy.

In my salad days, the correct response for someone higher ranking but out of uniform would be to straighten up, look the saluter in the eye and end the exchange by smartly looking away. Probably too subtle.

Revenant Threshold

02-12-2009, 12:56 PM

That's true regardless of whether the president is involved in the salute though - do you think enlisted personnel respect personally all the officers they salute? Or the officers all of the enlisted personnel or junior officers whose salutes they return?

At all times it is a mark of institutional respect, and as such it has its place. Yes, but my point is that while in those cases, there are regulations covering the actions of both parties to the saluting, only one party must adhere to them when it comes to a service member and the President. In the former cases, it is a mark of institutional respect, and so is handled institutionally. In the latter, it is likewise the case of respect for not the man but the Commander in Chief, yet the decision lies with the man and not with the office. It's not the rules which decide how the President responds, but the guy standing there in a suit.

Shodan

02-12-2009, 02:45 PM

For me, as an old soldier, returning a salute is the most automatic, natural thing in the world.Perhaps so. Neither Clinton nor Obama are old soldiers.

Regards,
Shodan

BarnOwl

02-12-2009, 03:53 PM

Perhaps so. Neither Clinton nor Obama are old soldiers.

Regards,
Shodan

Agreed. But would you say W is?

Mr. Moto

02-12-2009, 04:03 PM

Agreed. But would you say W is?

Leaving aside the question of his later service, it is a fact that he was on full time duty for about two years while learning to fly his plane. He was a commissioned officer at the time - and would have done a lot of saluting then and afterward in drills.

Elendil's Heir

02-12-2009, 04:04 PM

The President is a civilian and is not wearing a uniform, although he is the CINC. I'd prefer he just nod briskly, smile and keep moving. But Reagan having started the custom, it's not likely to end soon. Whoever is brave enough to stop doing it would be blasted for "disrespecting the troops." Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

The then national security advisor, Tony Lake, once coached President Clinton in how to correctly salute. See about halfway down this page: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/clinton/interviews/lake.html

Elendil's Heir

01-27-2013, 11:24 PM

BrainGlutton

01-27-2013, 11:28 PM

In the US, military personnel salute the civilian leadership. If said leadership doesn't salute back, they're gonna look kinda like jerks.

Eisenhower never did. As a career Army officer, he understood very well that as POTUS he was a civilian, and civilians do not salute.

pool

01-27-2013, 11:32 PM

I just got out of the Army, if I had seen Obama while I was in uniform I would salute him because he was my commander in chief even though I don't like Obama, but I wouldn't feel that offended if he didn't salute back of course it might be awkward if I held it lol.

Lord Feldon

01-28-2013, 12:01 AM

Dwight Eisenhower, a former five-star general, did not return military salutes while president.

But he did salute as he stepped on to the Royal Yacht Britannia in 1959. At about 2:15 in this video. (http://www.cbc.ca/archives/categories/economy-business/transport/the-st-lawrence-seaway-gateway-to-the-world/queen-elizabeth-officially-opens-the-st-lawrence-seaway.html) He put his hat on to do it and then took it right back off.

Der Trihs

01-28-2013, 12:36 AM

The GOP would howl if Obama didn't salute.When wouldn't they howl?

emoticorpse

01-28-2013, 01:22 AM

Why shouldn't he salute military personnel?

Czarcasm

01-28-2013, 06:39 AM

If it was proper for W to salute that one time because he used to in the military, then was in improper all the other times he didn't? I don't recall any rules, written or otherwise, concerning former military personnel saluting active duty military personnel, so the only two choices are:
1. Any president, whether or not they were formerly in the military, that salutes active duty military is doing something wrong, or
2. Any president that salutes active duty military personnel is honoring them for their service.

Monty

01-28-2013, 06:46 AM

Czarcasm

01-28-2013, 06:57 AM

The President isn't saluting military personnel to honor them for their service. He's returing their salute to him. Step 1: Military member salutes his Commander-in-Chief. Step 2: CINC returns the salute.True. Are there cases where the President was saluted in such a manner, and he didn't return the salute?

Monty

01-28-2013, 07:27 AM

True. Are there cases where the President was saluted in such a manner, and he didn't return the salute?

I'd be extremely surprised if there weren't any instances of the President not returning a salute. It's common enough for military officers to not return a salute for a number of reasons.

Now that I've gotten that out of the way, as a former military man mysself, I have to say saluting is one of the dumber things the military's come up with. I can see it for ceremonies, but to require it all the time is just silly.

Telemark

01-28-2013, 07:33 AM

True. Are there cases where the President was saluted in such a manner, and he didn't return the salute?
It sounds like all Presidents before Reagan didn't return the salute (although it appears a bit inconsistent at times). The military salutes, civilians don't.

lance strongarm

01-28-2013, 07:37 AM

I just came across this home movie of JFK in late 1963, saluting an Army noncom as the President boarded his helicopter. Start at 5:15; the salute comes at 5:37: http://www.jfklibrary.org/Asset-Viewer/Archives/JFKPPP-23.aspx

JFK was in the military before he became president though. That might make a difference. (Edit: As I see another poster has already noted).

Giles

01-28-2013, 08:01 AM

But he did salute as he stepped on to the Royal Yacht Britannia in 1959. At about 2:15 in this video. (http://www.cbc.ca/archives/categories/economy-business/transport/the-st-lawrence-seaway-gateway-to-the-world/queen-elizabeth-officially-opens-the-st-lawrence-seaway.html) He put his hat on to do it and then took it right back off.
In this case, the president was returning a salute on a foreign naval vessel. Would he have done the same when boarding a ship of the U.S. Navy?

Czarcasm

01-28-2013, 08:05 AM

JFK was in the military before he became president though. That might make a difference. (Edit: As I see another poster has already noted).Once again, there is no rule(or even custom) for former military personnel to salute current military personnel.

lance strongarm

01-28-2013, 08:27 AM

Once again, there is no rule(or even custom) for former military personnel to salute current military personnel.

No, rule, but JFK apparently invented a custom.

For the record, I don't think presidents should salute regardless of their military background.

Sitnam

01-28-2013, 08:32 AM

nm...

Elendil's Heir

01-28-2013, 08:49 AM

In this case, the president was returning a salute on a foreign naval vessel. Would he have done the same when boarding a ship of the U.S. Navy?

Yes, I think so. Some would, at least; ISTR FDR would doff his hat when boarding a U.S. warship.

robby

01-28-2013, 09:55 AM

It's a tricky situation. While the POTUS is the CINC, he is a civilian who is not actually in the military. In addition, he's not in uniform.

Nevertheless, he's going to look like a jerk if he doesn't acknowledge salutes in some manner, and the tradition seems to have stuck that he return the salute. IMHO, this is ridiculous, because again, the POTUS is not in the military and is not in uniform.

For example, U.S. Navy regulations state that when an officer is saluted and they are either in civilian clothes, or in uniform but uncovered (i.e. no hat), or their hands are occupied, the salute should be acknowledged with eye contact, a nod, and a greeting, but the salute is not returned.

Other services (such as the U.S. Army and Air Force), do salute when indoors and uncovered, so Navy personnel are advised to do the same when in mixed company to avoid looking "ill-mannered or disrespectful." However, Navy personnel do not generally salute when out of uniform or indoors and uncovered.

In short, then, I believe that the POTUS should acknowledge salutes with a nod and a greeting, but not being in the military or in uniform, should NOT actually themselves salute. However, at this point, it's probably going to take another ex-military POTUS (like Eisenhower) to reverse this practice.

Czarcasm

01-28-2013, 10:02 AM

Frankly, if you are in our military and the President Of The United States salutes you, and you are actually offended by this, you are the one with the problem.

Bricker

01-28-2013, 10:11 AM

Other services (such as the U.S. Army and Air Force), do salute when indoors and uncovered, so Navy personnel are advised to do the same when in mixed company to avoid looking "ill-mannered or disrespectful." However, Navy personnel do not generally salute when out of uniform or indoors and uncovered.

Er.... Soldiers do not generally salute indoors, except in limited circumstances, such as reporting to an officer or when under arms, as a guard.

US Army Field Manual 7-21-13(4) clearly states:

4-14. Salutes are not required when:

- Indoors, unless reporting to an officer or when on duty as a guard.
- A prisoner.
- Saluting is obviously inappropriate. In any case not covered by specific instructions, render the salute.
- Either the senior or the subordinate is wearing civilian clothes.

Bryan Ekers

01-28-2013, 11:07 AM

I stand by my post of four years ago - if the Prez wants to return a salute, let him. If he doesn't want to, shaddap about it. It should be 100% no question at his discretion and if you want to criticize him for saluting or not saluting, you should get a life, and if you listen to opposing politicians who clearly are kicking up a fuss just so they can criticize the Prez, you should get a new brain because your current one is obviously not working.

lance strongarm

01-28-2013, 11:40 AM

Bryan Ekers

01-28-2013, 12:13 PM

Really Not All That Bright

01-28-2013, 12:16 PM

If officers don't salute in civilian clothing I don't see why the POTUS would. On the other hand, I don't see why anyone should care if he does.

BobLibDem

01-28-2013, 12:19 PM

I think if you're commander in chief, you have plenty of more significant things to worry about than returning salutes. It should be up to him whether he does nothing, returns a salute, blows a kiss, flips the bird, or cocks his leg and farts.

DrDeth

01-28-2013, 12:29 PM

Even older thread on this issue:

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/archive/index.php/t-345373.html

Bryan Ekers

01-28-2013, 12:38 PM

cocks his leg and farts.

Ah, the LBJ salute....

lance strongarm

01-28-2013, 12:38 PM

I don't care what it's about. The mere act of raising your right hand and touching your forehead with it is not the exclusive purview of the military. If an organization (or a cult, for that matter) wanted to encourage it or similar among its membership, I fail to see the problem for them or for the President of the United States.

To me, it implies that the president is a member of the military, despite the clear intention of the Constitution to have a civilian command it. Should he wear a uniform and goose step around too?

Bryan Ekers

01-28-2013, 12:50 PM

I don't see what laws he'd be violating if he did, and I don't see the implication that a salute makes someone a member of the military.

Being able to zip commies....that's what makes someone a member of the military.

lance strongarm

01-28-2013, 01:02 PM

I don't see what laws he'd be violating if he did, and I don't see the implication that a salute makes someone a member of the military.

Didn't say that. I just don't like the militarization of a civilian office, that's all.

robby

01-28-2013, 01:11 PM

Er.... Soldiers do not generally salute indoors, except in limited circumstances, such as reporting to an officer or when under arms, as a guard.My point was simply that there are circumstances in which Army personnel do indeed salute indoors, even if uncovered. In contrast, Navy personnel do not do this.

The only circumstances in which Navy personnel salute indoors is: (1) when covered and under arms, or (2) when in mixed company with other services when they salute, and when the failure to salute might lead to misunderstanding or embarrassment.

Bryan Ekers

01-28-2013, 01:47 PM

Didn't say that. I just don't like the militarization of a civilian office, that's all.

Saluting doesn't do this, though, unless it's your contention that only the military can (or should) salute, which will come as a surprise to civilians who put their hands over their hearts or remove their hats or tip their caps or whatever, as circumstances prompt them. Is standing for the national anthem a "salute" ?

So, is raising your right hand and touching your forehead under military copyright, or are civilians allowed to do it, too?

lance strongarm

01-28-2013, 01:51 PM

Saluting doesn't do this, though, unless it's your contention that only the military can (or should) salute, which will come as a surprise to civilians who put their hands over their hearts or remove their hats or tip their caps or whatever, as circumstances prompt them. Is standing for the national anthem a "salute" ?

No, a salute is a salute, and saluting the military is a military salute.

So, is raising your right hand and touching your forehead under military copyright, or are civilians allowed to do it, too?

Again, do you think the president should wear a uniform? Or march around?

Certain things are appropriate, others are not.

Monty

01-28-2013, 01:53 PM

To me, it implies that the president is a member of the military, despite the clear intention of the Constitution to have a civilian command it. Should he wear a uniform and goose step around too?

That post would have a point if, in fact, the US military did happen to march using the so-called goose-step. As the US military doesn't use that particular style of marching, your post is pointless.

Monty

01-28-2013, 01:55 PM

Didn't say that. I just don't like the militarization of a civilian office, that's all.

Actually, you did. You specifically said that to you, the President rendering a salute implies he's a member of the military. And just for fun, check the Constitution. He's the Commander-in-Chief of the military. He just doesn't happen to be a uniformed member.

lance strongarm

01-28-2013, 02:02 PM

Actually, you did. You specifically said that to you, the President rendering a salute implies he's a member of the military.

Ah. I meant it implies he is, yet he isn't. It's an incongruity.

And just for fun, check the Constitution. He's the Commander-in-Chief of the military. He just doesn't happen to be a uniformed member.

Yes, he is, but he's still a civilian. He is NOT a member of the military by any definition.

Bryan Ekers

01-28-2013, 02:03 PM

No, a salute is a salute, and saluting the military is a military salute.

So has CNN become militarized, then? (http://www.cnn.com/exchange/blogs/salute/index.html)

Again, do you think the president should wear a uniform? Or march around?

I have no problem with it, though I bet what would happen is his political opponents claiming he was mocking the military rather than trying to become part of it.

It's of no relevance that I can see, beyond a weak attempt at a slippery slope argument and if I may respond in kind - do you want to regulate all aspects of the president's behaviour, 24 hours a day, the way he walks and talks and gestures and eats and drinks and uses the bathroom?

Certain things are appropriate, others are not.

Well, in this case, I'm okay with his deciding that on his own. The salute itself is a mere ceremonial gesture, a vestigial remnant of raising one's visor in order to be recognized, and it only has whatever significance we choose to give it.

lance strongarm

01-28-2013, 02:15 PM

So has CNN become militarized, then? (http://www.cnn.com/exchange/blogs/salute/index.html)

I can't decide if you really think this is relevant.

You know that "salute" has more meanings than making a gesture with the hand.

I have no problem with it, though I bet what would happen is his political opponents claiming he was mocking the military rather than trying to become part of it.

I would have a very big problem with it. Our president is supposed to be a civilian. Our constitution is designed to protect us from being ruled by the military.

It's of no relevance that I can see, beyond a weak attempt at a slippery slope argument and if I may respond in kind - do you want to regulate all aspects of the president's behaviour, 24 hours a day, the way he walks and talks and gestures and eats and drinks and uses the bathroom?

Wow, talk about a slippery slope argument!

I don't want to regulate anything. He decides whether to salute.

Like I said, some things are appropriate and some are not - you can't get further from the slippery slope argument than that.

Well, in this case, I'm okay with his deciding that on his own. The salute itself is a mere ceremonial gesture, a vestigial remnant of raising one's visor in order to be recognized, and it only has whatever significance we choose to give it.[/QUOTE]

Bryan Ekers

01-28-2013, 02:32 PM

I can't decide if you really think this is relevant.

Hey, if a salute is a salute, and saluting the military is a military salute, CNN's website where they "Salute to Troops" must mean CNN is military, right?

You know that "salute" has more meanings than making a gesture with the hand.

Do you know that making a gesture with the hand can have different meanings to different people in different contexts, even if it's the same gesture?

I would have a very big problem with it. Our president is supposed to be a civilian. Our constitution is designed to protect us from being ruled by the military.

The president putting on a uniform and marching around doesn't mean you're being ruled by the military.

If he's about to declare martial law, though....

Wow, talk about a slippery slope argument!

I don't want to regulate anything. He decides whether to salute.

Well, okay then.... my work here is done.

Like I said, some things are appropriate and some are not - you can't get further from the slippery slope argument than that.

Heh, really? Just don't use the wrong fork at dinner. That's how wars start.

Monty

01-28-2013, 02:32 PM

I would have a very big problem with it. Our president is supposed to be a civilian. Our constitution is designed to protect us from being ruled by the military.

Exactly how does the President returning a salute to a military member indicate the military is ruling the country?

Really Not All That Bright

01-28-2013, 02:36 PM

A returned salute implies that the returner is a member of the military, perhaps.

lance strongarm

01-28-2013, 02:42 PM

Hey, if a salute is a salute, and saluting the military is a military salute, CNN's website where they "Salute to Troops" must mean CNN is military, right?

Yeah, I'm done with this conversation.

lance strongarm

01-28-2013, 02:43 PM

Exactly how does the President returning a salute to a military member indicate the military is ruling the country?

It doesn't. What it does is "militarize" ever so slightly, what is supposed to be a firmly civilian office. That's all.

lance strongarm

01-28-2013, 02:45 PM

A returned salute implies that the returner is a member of the military, perhaps.

Yes. I can see how a returned salute might be appropriate. At that point, he's commander-in-chief.

Bryan Ekers

01-28-2013, 02:46 PM

Yeah, Monty, a slight militarization is all it takes, then BAM! - fascism.

Or you could just say that when a military member in uniform salutes, it's a military salute, and when a president salutes, it's a presidential salute, and beyond that they have nothing in common.

Monty

01-28-2013, 02:50 PM

It doesn't. What it does is "militarize" ever so slightly, what is supposed to be a firmly civilian office. That's all.

No, it doesn't. It no more "militarizes" (whatever that might mean) the office of the presidency than this act (http://ushistoryrphs.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/jfk-jr.jpg) made that individual a member of a military ruling the US.

lance strongarm

01-28-2013, 03:08 PM

No, it doesn't. It no more "militarizes" (whatever that might mean) the office of the presidency than this act (http://ushistoryrphs.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/jfk-jr.jpg) made that individual a member of a military ruling the US.

Yes, it does. I think the more you act like the military, the more you militarize. And to militarize doesn't mean you become a member of the military.

Bryan Ekers

01-28-2013, 03:12 PM

Well, I sure hope the person in Monty's picture didn't end up in the Air Force.

Elendil's Heir

01-28-2013, 03:25 PM

Even older thread on this issue:

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/archive/index.php/t-345373.html

No, I started that thread, and it's a different issue. Take another look.

Monty

01-28-2013, 03:34 PM

Yes, it does. I think the more you act like the military, the more you militarize. And to militarize doesn't mean you become a member of the military.

So, what you're now saying is that you misspoke in an earlier post?

Trinopus

01-28-2013, 05:28 PM

. . . So, is raising your right hand and touching your forehead under military copyright, or are civilians allowed to do it, too?

Very good question! What should happen when a well-meaning civilian, perhaps a bumpkin fresh off the turnip truck, sees a Marine in uniform, say at the airport, and out of a misguided sense of pure respect, salutes him? (Poorly.)

Is the civilian committing a civil offense, similar to the "stolen valor" law where it would be a crime for him to wear his grand-daddy's campaign ribbons? Okay, obviously not. It's clearly a "freedom of speech" thing. Maybe it isn't appropriate, but is it really "wrong?"

What should the Marine do? He shouldn't return the salute...but is it wrong for him to acknowledge it? Maybe he could lift his hand in a loose gesture emblematic or evocative of a salute? Or does he cold-shoulder the civvy, a classic cut direct? Is anything wrong with a smile and a nod?

This reminds me of the schedule of rules for displaying the flag. They're "rules" but they aren't "laws." I don't go to jail for leaving Old Glory out in the rain, or even dragging it in the mud. But I shouldn't.

The problem is, in a free country, "Shouldn't" doesn't really have much meaning. We shouldn't go name-calling in the SDMB BBQ Pit...but, boy howdy, we sure do!

Learjeff

01-28-2013, 05:43 PM

My military experience is slim (4 years in the Navy high school -- yeah, really), and while I agree with the general rule that civilians don't salute, the CINC is a pretty special case (and the same rules could apply to SecDef and other saluted civilians).

IMHO, it makes sense to acknowledge a salute.

The fact that there isn't a rule makes it a bit uncomfortable to the saluting military person, since they have to guess whether to hold for the acknowledgement or not. But in practice this is no different than low-levels saluting admirals, who can't be bothered to return every salute as he walks the opposite way of hundreds of soldiers/seamen/airmen. I doubt the President usually returns a salute each time he boards AF1, for example -- and the saluting person knows he'll pass and then he can release.

But at a public affair, and when being saluted not just by one corpsman, but by the whole corps, it makes sense to make a clear acknowledgement. I agree with Reagan's decision, and it shouldn't matter one whit whether the Pres had served or not. The Pres is not being saluted because of what he was, but because of what he IS, and should reply in kind. However, it does behoove the Pres to know the protocol and get it reasonably right.

BTW, I don't know how it is in other services, but in the Navy one doesn't salute unless one is covered (wearing a cap). If that's the case, Bush goofed in the link above (about Reagan). But I'd still forgive him: he's the Pres, who never wears a military cap, and he can make the rules.

Learjeff

01-28-2013, 05:48 PM

True. Are there cases where the President was saluted in such a manner, and he didn't return the salute?As I said, this happens all the time with higher officers -- starting at say, Army Lieutenant Colonal, or Navy Commander. High enough that the majority have to salute you in passing, but your arm would wear out if you returned each one. Of course, the level where this starts to happen depends on the circumstances. It would be quite different in the Pentagon versus on a Navy destroyer.

Bryan Ekers

01-28-2013, 06:02 PM

Very good question! What should happen when a well-meaning civilian, perhaps a bumpkin fresh off the turnip truck, sees a Marine in uniform, say at the airport, and out of a misguided sense of pure respect, salutes him? (Poorly.)

I've been saluted by civilians when I'm in uniform. I'll be cordial about it (I do my best to always be cordial to the public when in uniform - this one time I even helped an old lady carry her groceries) if the intent is well-meaning, but... no, I'm not going to snap a salute back at them. Maybe a salute-ish raising of my hand... more like a wave, really.

I expect a U.S. Marine would do the same, or at least I've never heard of a case where a marine went all psycho on some civilian for saluting him. If the civvy's bein' a jerk and/or is drunk, sure, give 'im the cold shoulder.

The problem is, in a free country, "Shouldn't" doesn't really have much meaning. We shouldn't go name-calling in the SDMB BBQ Pit...but, boy howdy, we sure do!

We shouldn't name-call in the Pit? What the fucking fuck kinda fucked up shit is that?

Monty

01-28-2013, 07:18 PM

But at a public affair, and when being saluted not just by one corpsman, but by the whole corps, it makes sense to make a clear acknowledgement.

A member of the Marine Corps is a Marine. A Corpsman is a member of the Hospital Corps.

Trinopus

01-28-2013, 09:29 PM

. . . but... no, I'm not going to snap a salute back at them. Maybe a salute-ish raising of my hand... more like a wave, really.

That makes sense, and is a comfortable compromise.

We shouldn't name-call in the Pit? What the fucking fuck kinda fucked up shit is that?

Grin! My upbringing at my grandmother's knee slipped through. Miss Manners would have loved her! You're right, of course: there is a proper place for everything, including cussin'!

(And lima beans...)

Bryan Ekers

01-28-2013, 10:03 PM

That makes sense, and is a comfortable compromise.

Sure, for me, the guy who is not the president or anything.

lance strongarm

01-29-2013, 08:23 AM

So, what you're now saying is that you misspoke in an earlier post?

No, just wasn't precise enough.

Bryan Ekers

01-29-2013, 01:25 PM

No, just wasn't precise enough.

This is no time for imprecision! We're talking about presidential hand gestures!! What if Obama reads on the internet that lance strongarm is okay with imprecision and gets careless?! He could reach out to shake the Bulgarian ambassador's hand, miss, and push the button that starts World War III! And you'll be all like "oh no, why did I say it was okay to be imprecise?!" but it's too late because you and everyone you care about is a radioactive puddle of goo!

STOP GAMBLING WITH OUR FREEDOM!

lance strongarm

01-29-2013, 01:39 PM

This is no time for imprecision! We're talking about presidential hand gestures!! What if Obama reads on the internet that lance strongarm is okay with imprecision and gets careless?! He could reach out to shake the Bulgarian ambassador's hand, miss, and push the button that starts World War III! And you'll be all like "oh no, why did I say it was okay to be imprecise?!" but it's too late because you and everyone you care about is a radioactive puddle of goo!

STOP GAMBLING WITH OUR FREEDOM!

You really need to get a better hobby than this.

Bryan Ekers

01-29-2013, 01:48 PM

Hey, I answered the question seriously when the thread was opened four years ago. Now I'm on vacation.

Elendil's Heir

01-29-2013, 09:54 PM

Send us a postcard!

Trinopus

01-29-2013, 11:15 PM

Sure, for me, the guy who is not the president or anything.

That was as far as I was taking it.

I figure there isn't any right answer for the President. People who don't like him won't like whatever he does. If he salutes, he's violating strict military protocol; if he doesn't salute, he's showing disrespect for the troops.

(It reminds me of the primary election season, when Herman Cain wouldn't answer a question, because he didn't know what Obama was going to say on the same issue, and he didn't dare take the chance that Obama might say the same thing he said!)