Is a synagogue the church for me?

[Tracy Lord]

I grew up in a liberal, middle-class Reform Presbyterian Church (USA) congregation in Portland, OR. I moved to London in 2006, and since then I've been looking for a church/congregation with the same laid-back, friendly, chatty, socially liberal, scholarly, grounded but not regressive feel.

Anglicanism isn't doing it for me (I've investigated high-high and low-low churches and a few in between), and the few Presbyterian churches I've found here have been of the ranting socially-conservative John Knox variety.

So I thought a synagogue might have what I'm looking for in a congregation. The holy texts are familiar enough that I think I won't feel completely lost. In fact, in my opinion, the Torah is more feminist than the New Testament, and (warning: broad brush) I can't remember meeting a self-righteous socially conservative Jew. I dated a Jewish guy in high school, and all his family celebrations felt very familiar in the way the community interacted. I googled around and found the New London Synagogue (http://www.newlondon.org.uk/), which is in my neck of the woods, and I am planning to visit tomorrow morning. I like this bit from their website:

We are traditional in practice and non-judgmental in outlook.

and I've been reading their rabbi's blog (http://rabbionanarrowbridge.blogspot.com/) and like it (as well as the fact that their rabbi has a blog in the first place!). Also, on the website, they have pictures of last year's Purim party in which one small child is dressed up like Batman. Which is clearly the sign of a congregation who knows how to worship (Purim is obviously the best holy day of the entire Abrahamic calendar, and I will confess to being anxious to get my foot in the door with some worship group before it comes around this year.)

Is this cultural appropriation? I mean, I have, at the moment, no intention of converting to Judaism. I just want to find a congregation where I can worship in the way that feels 'right' to me, and the attitude and culture are more important than the scriptural specifics.

Also, I'm nervous about attending a service for a religion I don't have much experience with, and doing the wrong thing/not knowing when to do the right thing/all that scary ritual business.

[Tracy Lord]

(Yes, I'm aware that I might not get very many knowledgeable answers on the Sabbath! :p)

[kanicbird]

IMHO if your heart is in seeking God then follow it.

[Tracy Lord]

Well, yes, I think I've got to that part, I'm just haggling with The Big Guy on the specifics.

[kanicbird]

Well, yes, I think I've got to that part, I'm just haggling with The Big Guy on the specifics.
If you felt like you knew Jesus personally, as you would know a brother I'd advise otherwise but God instructs us to 'Come let us reason together' (Is 1:18), and the only thing we have to reason with Him is His Word, so here is His instructions:

But if from there you seek the LORD your God, you will find him if you look for him with all your heart and with all your soul.
If you are doing that then you are doing exactly what He tells you to do, the path for you may go through Judaism, is did for Saul/Paul.

[twickster]

Is this cultural appropriation? I mean, I have, at the moment, no intention of converting to Judaism. I just want to find a congregation where I can worship in the way that feels 'right' to me, and the attitude and culture are more important than the scriptural specifics.
(Where I'm coming from in my answer: don't belong to a church, or in my case meeting, since I was raised Quaker -- culturally Christian, but barely. Don't accept the divinity of Christ. Do believe in some kind of higher power, but what that means is theologically pretty idiosyncratic.

Plus I have a PhD in sociology of religion, which is about how religions operate as groups.)

I think it would be seriously inappropriate. There's a fundamental difference between Christianity and Judaism, and that difference is where they stand on the divinity of Jesus of Nazareth. If you continue to consider yourself a Christian, you shouldn't be worshipping with Jews as your primary congregation.

[Mr. Moto]

Don't they have Methodist churches over there? You might want to check on that. It might be closer to your worldview.

I worshiped at a United Methodist church for years, before my own religious journey brought me back to Catholicism.

[Tracy Lord]

Plus I have a PhD in sociology of religion, which is about how religions operate as groups.

!!! Do you mind if I pester you a little more? This is exactly what I'm trying to figure out for myself.

To me, the important part of religious observance is the community. I could not care less about who is divine, or divinely inspired, or whatever, as long as the fundamental message is "be nice to each other, and help people who are poor or oppressed or otherwise unable to help themselves".

I consider myself a Christian because my family has been Presbyterian for 300 years, I met many of my closest schoolfriends and my first boyfriend at my church, and I know most of the hymns and they have emotional resonance with me, but I am seriously unconcerned with Jesus' divinity. My desire for and attraction to a religious congregation is exclusively cultural (as in, I want a regular group celebration of "God is great and wants us to help and love each other" to be part of my life).

I am concerned with how a group uses its holy text to direct everyday life and in politics, and I've been seeking a religious community that is committed to social progressiveness and liberalism.

Mr Moto, I haven't looked much into Methodism, no! I remember liking what they had to say about classism and (IIRC) labor unions. I'll investigate. Thanks!

[carlotta]

non-Jew, ostensibly Catholic, erstwhile religion major here.

You sound more like a match for a Unitarian or a Quaker congregation to me. Both are very much about community, almost always socially progressive, and are very much about each person having their own religious journey and relationship with God. In a Unitarian church especially you will find a group of people pulled from many different backgrounds and at many different places on their spiritual journeys.

You might find the synagogue you've mentioned a welcoming place. But most of the people there will come from a Jewish background and to a certain extent, though they may not be excluding, you will be an outsider.

[ratatoskK]

Here's another vote for Unitarian or one of the liberal Protestant sects (Congragationalist, Quaker, etc...) where you'd probably fit in better.

[twickster]

Yeah, my first thought was Unitarian also -- I don't know if they have UU (Unitarian/Universalist) churches in the UK, though. There are a slew of different brands of Methodism, some of which are significantly more conservative than others, so tread carefully there.

Yes, community is absolutely fundamental to religion, as opposed to spirituality -- but that community is premised on shared beliefs. If you don't share the beliefs, you're not really part of the community.

[NinjaChick]

If I found out that someone was regularly attending a flavor of religious services, but did not consider themselves not intended to convert to that flavor, I'd kind of...wonder. I wouldn't say I personally have a problem with it, because to me personally it's all a bit ridiculous to begin with, but I probably would wonder what your motives truly were.

I know Judaism traditionally is not terribly easy to convert to - you can't just show up and get dunked and bam you're a Jew - but I haven't a clue if that's relevant at all. I also know that there sometimes is some friction between 'mainstream' Judaism and messianic Judaism, so I imagine that could potentially be seen as an issue.

I personally, based solely on my experiences, would not consider Judaism to be particularly compatible in any way with modern feminism, but that's just my two cents. It's also my opinion that while there are progressive ideas to be found in many non-Orthodox congregations, they don't come from the Old Testament (which - again, my opinion - is little more than some distressingly insane stories about an angry god, then a whole lot of rules, then some more insane stories, all of which are taken together to express the idea that if you do not follow the rules [and maybe even if you do, cf Job] God will wreck your shit), but secondary sources, so to speak.

If you want to celebrate Purim, I personally have no problem, but I can kind of understand why some people would. I think Judaism, not surprisingly, tends to have a somewhat cautious approach to outsiders in general; it's not a religion that proselytizes and outsiders taking an interest hasn't always worked out so great in the past.

Then again, I'm a heathen who thinks that while some organized religion is more tolerable than others they're all pretty awful, so my opinion might not be worth the pixels it's written in. So. What I would recommend is...go talk to the rabbi. I've heard they don't bite, and obviously the head of the congregation is the only one who can tell you if you'd really be welcome for your purposes.

[Mk VII]

Judaism is not a proselytizing religion, and does not, on the whole, want or seek converts from something else.

[kanicbird]

Well, yes, I think I've got to that part, I'm just haggling with The Big Guy on the specifics.

Reading your later post it seems like you are not really seeking God as much as fellowship of like minded people. Religion is a way of going about this, if this 'off label' use upsets God more then other ways I'm not sure even if it upsets Him. On one hand you may meet people who bring you to Him, OTOH you may discourage people truly seeking God by your intentions of not seeking God, but fellowship.

God weighs the heart. If the desire that is in your heart is to help God's people, and you believe finding fellowship is required then that God can use (which seems may be the case), if you are using it for self service purposes such as finding romantic relationships or social acceptability, that God is less likely to use in a positive matter IMHO.

I think you and Him have to sit down and try to find what your heart is trying to accomplish.

[Mr. Moto]

I am concerned with how a group uses its holy text to direct everyday life and in politics, and I've been seeking a religious community that is committed to social progressiveness and liberalism.

Mr Moto, I haven't looked much into Methodism, no! I remember liking what they had to say about classism and (IIRC) labor unions. I'll investigate. Thanks!

Right. Forgive me for saying this, but I think you are approaching this in the worst possible way. You are putting your political values first and looking for a religion that can justify them, rather than trying to find a faith that fits your beliefs about the nature of God and his relationship with the universe.

Now, you can continue your quest for a liberal club with included prayer circle, or you can just find a church and work the political in other ways - like Southern Baptist Bill Clinton or Roman Catholic Nancy Pelosi or Morman Harry Reid.

[Rand Rover]

In fact, in my opinion, the Torah is more feminist than the New Testament,
:dubious:

and (warning: broad brush) I can't remember meeting a self-righteous socially conservative Jew.
Plenty of orthodox Jews are self-righteous and kind of obnoxious. I mean, they believe that there is one god, and that one god chose the Jews alone from among all of the world's peoples to be "The Chosen People"TM. Doesn't get more self-righteous than that.

[Randy Seltzer]

A practical concern: the services will be conducted largely in Hebrew. Would you be okay with not having any idea what's going on for most of the time? Also, seating for men and women is divided up during services. Would your feminist sensibilities be offended by a requirement that you stay in the balcony during worship?

Your idea seems wacky, but if you're really into it, I would recommend a less orthodox synagogue. The one you've chosen seems to be a part of the Masorti movement, a splinter movement of Jewish Conservatism (which is between Orthodox and Reform). I have no idea of the religious climate in Anglo Jewry, but if you were in the U.S., I'd recommend you check out a Reform synagogue, or a Reconstructionist synagogue, where a large proportion of the service would be conducted in English, and you would see female rabbis. If you were really lucky, you might be able to find a Humanistic Jewish synagogue, which basically throws the religious aspect out the window and just focuses on the cultural aspect.

[Shayna]

When I was in my confirmation year, we went on a weekend retreat with the rabbi. One of the days was spent being separated into 7 different groups, with each group given a set of "beliefs" they were to do the exercises under. For instance, one group was assigned the "G-d is an omnipotent, omnipresent being who created the universe and all things in it" model. Another group was told to do their exercises as if G-d was more of an abstract that existed in the hearts and minds of individuals, somewhat like a conscience. Another group was assigned the "agnostic" label, and so on.

Throughout the day we did things like, "list the Jewish holidays in order of importance as to how the G-d (or non-G-d) our group was assigned would rank them". "Draw a picture of what your G-d would look like if he (or she) could be depicted". I don't recall all the exercises, but you get the drift.

At the end of the day the rabbi asked us if anyone could tell him what the point of the day's exercises had been. Almost everyone in the room thought we were doing a "comparative religions" study. Lo and behold, we were studying Judaism in all (or many) of its forms and fashions. The object lesson was, Judaism doesn't have a "creed". There's nothing you have to "believe" to be a Jew. Our particular congregation held several different styles of Shabbat services on a rotating basis for just that reason, including one that never mentioned the word G-d.

Every congregation is going to be and feel different, though, even to an established Jew. There are synagogues that I feel so out of place in, I couldn't do more than attend an event as an invitee, such as a wedding or other ritual, and that includes both the ultra-Orthodox and the ultra-Reform.

The bottom line is, the Jewish congregation may very well turn out to be where you feel most comfortable, in spite of any differences of opinion you may have about G-d. It could, however, be as uncomfortable for you as the reform synagogue that didn't allow its congregants to even wear tallit (the traditional prayer shawl) in the sanctuary was to me.

Only you will know for sure, and you can only find out by attending a few services and perhaps talking to the rabbi.

By the way: It is not necessary for a person to formally convert to Judaism in order to adopt any or all beliefs and practices of Judaism. In Judaism, such people are referred to as righteous gentiles (see, for example the character of Job). There are various groups that have adopted Jewish customs and practices. For example, in Russia, the Subbotniks have adopted most aspects of Judaism without formal conversion to Judaism. . .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ger_tzedek

I wish you all the best in finding a comfortable home to worship in, wherever that may be.

[elmwood]

Judaism is not a proselytizing religion, and does not, on the whole, want or seek converts from something else.

Somewhat true, but many web sites for reform congregations will have information about conversion.

FWIW, my path to Judaism took many years, even though half of my family (Dad's side) is Jewish. I was raised Lutheran, drifted towards Unitarian Universalism, checked out a service at a reform synagogue several years afterward, and felt like I was finally "home", spiritually speaking.

After moving from Cleveland to Austin, practicing has become something of a challenge. I can't afford to live anywhere near Austin's small-ish Jewish community, and Friday services start shortly after work; I've got to start leaving work on Friday early if I want to make it to that night's service at the area's reform congregations. In most smaller metropolitan areas, Jews will be clustered in one or two neighborhoods, where most Jewish institutions will be located. Live outside of those areas, and it's as if you're part of the "diaspora of the diaspora".

[suranyi]

:dubious:


Plenty of orthodox Jews are self-righteous and kind of obnoxious. I mean, they believe that there is one god, and that one god chose the Jews alone from among all of the world's peoples to be "The Chosen People"TM. Doesn't get more self-righteous than that.

I think that's a little misleading as to what the term "The Chosen People" means, at least to Jews. You'll probably have to wait till after the Sabbath for a more full explanation from the experts, but the Jews were chosen in the sense that extra obligations were imposed upon them.

Ed

[Czarcasm]

Moving thread from IMHO to Great Debates.

[Sage Rat]

Just an IMHO answer, but I think it would be pretty ackward to stay Christian and worship at a Jewish synagogue. Think of it in terms of a Scientologist asking the Pope to do a brain audit for him or a Mormon asking a you to bless his underwear with an appropriate prayer from the Book of Mormon.

Christianity may look upon Judaism as a backwards-compatible option, but to Jews, Christianity is a cult started by a confidence man or madman. It would be rather awkward to have someone in their place of worship who's going around following the words of this ancient lying charlatan.

So pretty much you need to either convert to Judaism, or you need to find a church that follows what you believe.

[Dangerosa]

Yeah, my first thought was Unitarian also -- I don't know if they have UU (Unitarian/Universalist) churches in the UK, though. There are a slew of different brands of Methodism, some of which are significantly more conservative than others, so tread carefully there.


http://www.unitarian.org.uk/

Being Unitarians and not part of the UUA, they have slightly different principals. And they are Unitarians, not Unitarian Universalists. But for someone thinking about going to a synagogue but not converting to Judaism, the distinction probably isn't important.

[DocCathode]

Plenty of orthodox Jews are self-righteous and kind of obnoxious. I mean, they believe that there is one god, and that one god chose the Jews alone from among all of the world's peoples to be "The Chosen People"TM. Doesn't get more self-righteous than that.

One of my favorite Jewish folktales is that G-d held a mountain over the Jews while asking 'Do you want to be my people?'.

Ninja Chick 'messianic Jews' are not Jews. You can take my word for it or you can wait till sundown when the Industrial Strength Jews of the SDMB will back me up with Torah and Talmud cites. Judaism does believe in a messiah. Jesus of Nazareth does not qualify as that messiah (check Maimonides list of Things You Must Do To Be The Messiah).

Tracy Lord I advise you to keep looking. You will probably not have much trouble finding a synagogue to welcome you. But as has been said, you will be an outsider. Again, your position on a certain carpenter shall mark you as not truly belonging. I advise you to ask the many Christians of the SDMB what branch of Christianity you would best fit with.

[foolsguinea]

OK. :deep breath: You're not a Christian.

That is, you seem indifferent to the idea of the divinity of Yeshua. You're looking for a this-worldly religion with fellowship ranked high, & eschatology ranked low. The criticisms here of a Christian trying to worship as a Christian (:rolleyes: @ Sage Rat) don't apply to you.

The "righteous Gentile" path may be right for you. Give it a shot.

[Iolanthe]

Is this cultural appropriation? I mean, I have, at the moment, no intention of converting to Judaism. I just want to find a congregation where I can worship in the way that feels 'right' to me, and the attitude and culture are more important than the scriptural specifics.

Also, I'm nervous about attending a service for a religion I don't have much experience with, and doing the wrong thing/not knowing when to do the right thing/all that scary ritual business.First off, what I'm saying is true for American Judaism. I'd check with a Brit for British Judaism, and an Israeli for Israeli issues, etc, etc. The most important thing you'd need to do is...don't proselytize for Christianity. In any way, shape, or form (don't worry, I don't get the sense at all that this is your intent.) Other than that?

If you came to my shul, I would think you were a little weird, but I'd be rather charmed. Honestly, I'd probably also assume that you were there to start the conversion process, but no one at a Conservative, Reform, or Reconstructionist shul is going to hassle you if you say you aren't. (They'll just be confused.) Again, that's assuming you weren't there to proselytize. If you do, the responses won't be friendly, and they won't be polite.

There's a lot of Hebrew at Conservative services (forget Ortho - you'd be completely lost.) If you sat next to me, I'd be very happy to sit with you and point to where we were. You shouldn't have any trouble finding help, just lean over and say that you could use some assistance. They'll probably assume that you're there for whatever kid's Bar or Bat Mitzvah is going on that weekend.

Truly, avoid the Orthodox shuls. Chasidic, modern Ortho, doesn't matter. They won't hassle you to convert, but they will give you more problems for being there, and as a feminist, they'll give you agita. Careful with the Conservative shul you pick if try one. I looked at the website you linked to. It sounds lovely, but don't go to the service in the main sanctuary - go to the one upstairs. You want a fully egalitarian service. Most Conservative shuls are fully egalitarian, but not all of them are. Where you might run into problems though, is if you try to take a leadership position. Bluntly put, I don't think you'd get one. That may not matter to you. And I'm not sure how tenable a Conservative place would be in the long term. Unless you stuck to Fri nights only, you'd have a 3 hour Sat morning service that you mostly didn't understand. I can't think that would help you spiritually. Unless you want to learn liturgical Hebrew, which doesn't seem worth it.

I think you'd be much better off with a Reform shul or a Reconstructionist shul. I don't know anything about the latter, but you should have no trouble at all with a Reform place. They are used to reaching out to non-Jews to get them to participate, namely the spouses in intermarried couples. (They don't just randomly reach out to non-Jews, of course.) I sang in a Reform choir with non-Jewish woman who was very active in raising her Jewish kids in the temple. She never converted, and absolutely no one gave a damn. (Bear in mind though, her kids would not have been considered Jewish in a Conservative or Orthodox shul.)

And to echo other posters, you might be just as happy or happier in a Unitarian or Quaker church. They sound like lovely places, with strong social justice themes. And you could take leadership positions there - run for Church President, teach Sunday School, etc. Don't bother with a Messianic Jewish church - that isn't real Judaism.

[Sage Rat]

That is, you seem indifferent to the idea of the divinity of Yeshua. You're looking for a this-worldly religion with fellowship ranked high, & eschatology ranked low. The criticisms here of a Christian trying to worship as a Christian (:rolleyes: @ Sage Rat) don't apply to you.

I did see that she didn't believe in the divinity of Jesus. But at the same time she was saying that she wants to remain Presbyterian, to practice a faith based on the Golden Rule, and to be able to keep on using all the psalms and songs she already knows. That's Christianity. "Secularist Christianity" or something perhaps, but still something that would be based on a few thousand years of teachings that originated with Jesus.

[DocCathode]

The "righteous Gentile" path may be right for you. Give it a shot.

I don't think 'righteous Gentile' is the phrase you are looking for. Any non Jew who is basically their brother's keeper is a righteous gentile- Gandhi, Martin Luther King, Schindler, King Christian II of Denmark, etc.

I believe what you mean is Noahide. Basically, G-d gave Noah 7 commandments. Judaism says that any gentile who who believes that there is one G-d, but for some reason does not want to convert fully to Judaism (it is a very hard and long process), may pronounce themselves a Noahide and live life by those seven commandments.

The commandments are

not to deny G-d

not to blaspheme G-d

not to murder

Not to engage in sexual immorality

not to steal

not to eat a limb torn from a living animal

To set up courts to enforce these laws.


If you're a Christian who no longer believes in the divinity of Christ, becoming a Noahide may be for you.

[baronsabato]

I would suggest checking out the [URL="http://www.urc.org.uk/"]United Reformed ChurchURL] in England. Liberal/moderate Presbyterians, Congregationalists, and mainline Churches of Christ combined to form the URC, which is perhaps why you're having problems finding a suitably liberal Presbyterian congregation.

I actually would not recommend a Quaker congregation, unless you've had experience with unprogrammed (i.e. silent) worship, which can be unsettling for folks who aren't used to it already.

[twickster]

http://www.unitarian.org.uk/

Being Unitarians and not part of the UUA, they have slightly different principals. And they are Unitarians, not Unitarian Universalists. But for someone thinking about going to a synagogue but not converting to Judaism, the distinction probably isn't important.

I'm guessing the principles are different as well. ;)

[Dangerosa]

I'm guessing the principles are different as well. ;)

Yeah, those too.....

[Captain Amazing]

Where you might run into problems though, is if you try to take a leadership position. Bluntly put, I don't think you'd get one.

Forget about a leadership position, I don't think she's going to find any Conservative/Masorti syanagogue that's going to let a non-Jew, especially one that has no intentions of converting, even become a member.

[LavenderBlue]

:dubious:


Plenty of orthodox Jews are self-righteous and kind of obnoxious. I mean, they believe that there is one god, and that one god chose the Jews alone from among all of the world's peoples to be "The Chosen People"TM. Doesn't get more self-righteous than that.

That phrase does not even remotely mean what you apparently unfortunately think it means. Chosen People generally means chosen to receive the torah not (as anti-Semites would have it) chose to be above other peoples.

[Rand Rover]

That phrase does not even remotely mean what you apparently unfortunately think it means. Chosen People generally means chosen to receive the torah not (as anti-Semites would have it) chose to be above other peoples.

So keep fighting my ignorance--what does "chosen to receive the Torah" mean exactly?

[Locrian]

If you can't decide, there's always macramé!

[Sage Rat]

So keep fighting my ignorance--what does "chosen to receive the Torah" mean exactly?

Judaism doesn't have a chokehold on believing oneself to be of a chosen people (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_religion). It is however one of the few popularly practiced ethnic religions in the modern world.

[DSeid]

Tracy, I am still confused about what you are looking for.

The issue is obviously not that you want to pray with those who fit with your theological beliefs and perspectives as the differences between Judaism and Christianity are fundamental ones.

The issue is not that you want to be where the prayers, tunes, and service are familiar and comfortable to you as even the amount of Hebrew in a Reform congregation and the tunes and structure will be foreign to you.

It seems that you are instead looking for a community that shares your interests in finding meaning in the Bible/Torah in a more abstract way (you'd like hearing and discussing the week's Dvar Torah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah_study#D.27var_Torah) I suspect), and a commitment to social justice (Tikkun Olam).

Now it is true that many Reform Congregations in America at least have many non-Jews in attendance - a result the large number of interfaith families that participate - but even there I must wonder if a non-Jew unattached to a Jewish significant other and uninterested in conversion will be embraced as part of the community.

Maybe a there is an interfaith group committed to social action that might be a better fit?

That said, my guess is that your local temple is one of Britain's Liberal Judaism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_Judaism_(United_Kingdom)) congregations and those are more progressive than even most US Reform ones. Maybe you should make an appointment with their Rabbi and see how he reacts to your interest?

[Hello Again]

So keep fighting my ignorance--what does "chosen to receive the Torah" mean exactly?

The Torah sets out a set of laws, rules, and obligations for ethical living. Jews have chosen to take on these obligations, along with the law from whence they sprang. Non Jews are not expected to accept the law or the obligations.

Jewfaq to the rescue once again (http://www.jewfaq.org/gentiles.htm)

Because of our acceptance of Torah, Jews have a special status in the eyes of G-d, but we lose that special status when we abandon Torah. Furthermore, the blessings that we received from G-d by accepting the Torah come with a high price: Jews have a greater responsibility than non-Jews. While non-Jews are only obligated to obey the seven commandments given to Noah, Jews are responsible for fulfilling the 613 mitzvot in the Torah, thus G-d will punish Jews for doing things that would not be a sin for non-Jews.

[Malthus]

So keep fighting my ignorance--what does "chosen to receive the Torah" mean exactly?

Essentially, Jews are "chosen" - to obey a lot of rules not applicable to non-Jews.

In Judaism, being Jewish doesn't make you any better than a non-Jew. You just have more obligations.

A non-Jew (in Judaism) who is a "noahide" - that is, obeys the very basic 7 Noahide laws (such stuff as "don't steal" and "don't murder") - is just as righteous as the most observant Jew.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Laws_of_Noah

You may well ask, then, why *be* a Jew? Unlike in Christianity, being Jewish isn't a pre-requisite for any sort of salvation, and no guarantee of being ranked higher by God than a non-Jew.

Actually, that's a good question. :D But then, Judaism isn't a prostheletizing religion.

That "chosen people" business is massively misunderstood by many.

[Rand Rover]

OK, fine. Maybe I was wrong to describe Jews as "self-righteous," but I still think it is odd to believe that the one god in the whole universe singled out your people for special obligations. If not self-righteous, that's at least self-centered or jingoistic or something.

Also, don't Jews believe that the Messiah will be Jewish (I'm pretty sure that's correct). Do Jews believe that the Messiah will bring benefits to those who aren't Jews (i.e., Gentiles who observe the Noahide laws, others?)? If both of the above are correct, then Jews get a fairly nice reward for being saddled with additional obligations--i.e., the guy that comes to save the world is one of them.

Finally, I also believe that plenty of members of other religious groups are similarly self-centered, so don't think I'm singling out Jews.

[Malthus]

OK, fine. Maybe I was wrong to describe Jews as "self-righteous," but I still think it is odd to believe that the one god in the whole universe singled out your people for special obligations. If not self-righteous, that's at least self-centered or jingoistic or something.

Also, don't Jews believe that the Messiah will be Jewish (I'm pretty sure that's correct). Do Jews believe that the Messiah will bring benefits to those who aren't Jews (i.e., Gentiles who observe the Noahide laws, others?)? If both of the above are correct, then Jews get a fairly nice reward for being saddled with additional obligations--i.e., the guy that comes to save the world is one of them.

Finally, I also believe that plenty of members of other religious groups are similarly self-centered, so don't think I'm singling out Jews.

There isn't any united Jewish view on the messiah. Many Jews (Reform, Reconstructionist) do not believe in the existence of an actual messiah in the future.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_messianism

Others, such as Conservative Jews, leave the question quite open. This is from the official Conservative Movement statement of principals:

Since no one can say for certain what will happen in the Messianic era each of us is free to fashion personal speculation. Some of us accept these speculations are literally true, while others understand them as elaborate metaphors... For the world community we dream of an age when warfare will be abolished, when justice and compassion will be axioms of all, as it is said in Isaiah 11: "...the land shall be filled with the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea."

Some Jews believe in Tikkun Olam - meaning, in essence, to perfect yourself (ethically) so as to serve as an example to others, thereby helping them to perfect themselves:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tikkun_olam

There are obvious parallels between the notions of Tikkun Olam and messianism - the notion of a "utopian age", for example, either through a single entity (the messiah) or through ethical perfection.

In summary, it is not always obvious that being Jewish gives one much of a "bonus" through messianic speculation, given that large numbers of Jews either (a) do not believe in a messiah at all; (b) state that the messiah may simply be a metaphor for a utopian age; or (c) believe that this utopian age will come about, not through a "messiah", but through ethical perfection and example.

[Dinsdale]

When we were researching potential churches to attend/join, we checked out a synagogue. Really liked so much of what they had to say, and really enjoyed our discussion with "Rabbi Bob." But what queered the deal was when he answered our question that as liberal as they might be, belief in a god was pretty much required! :p

[DSeid]

When we were researching potential churches to attend/join, we checked out a synagogue. Really liked so much of what they had to say, and really enjoyed our discussion with "Rabbi Bob." But what queered the deal was when he answered our question that as liberal as they might be, belief in a god was pretty much required! :p

Not for the Jewish members. :) (I've suspected several rabbis as closet atheists even.)

Malthus, that's a different take (not saying wrong mind you) on Tikkun Olam from what I've always thought of it as - I've thought of it as the call for social action - sort of like the world was given to us "as is" and trying to make it more perfect is not the job of God but ours. Sort of like a skilled surgeon having his residents close up the case.

The Jewish concept of the Messiah is very different than the Christian one. But yeah, he is to be of the Davidic line and is to restore the Kingdom of Israel and bring peace. Generally a minor concept as is afterlife for that matter. What you do here and now for its own sake is the usual emphasis.

[Rand Rover]

Well, the concept of "the Chosen People" has a lot more facets than I thought. Thanks for fighting my ignorance everyone.

Lest anyone think I am an anti-Semite, I just want to state for the record that I'm an atheist and fairly anti-religion, so I've got piles of :dubious: and :rolleyes: for all religious groups that claim specialness, not just Jews (to the extent they even claim specialness, which I realize is complicated).

[panache45]

For the record: I was raised Jewish (Reform), through high school, and I don't recall even one discussion of a Messiah . . . nor of an afterlife, for that matter. It's just not a big deal, except for people who have nothing better to think about.

[Randy Seltzer]

OK, fine. Maybe I was wrong to describe Jews as "self-righteous," but I still think ...Just a general hint: you'll usually be wrong, or at least off-base, to describe [group] as [adjective] unless [adjective] is, literally, a defining characteristic of [group].Lest anyone think I am an anti-Semite, I just want to state for the record that I'm an atheist and fairly anti-religion, so I've got piles of :dubious: and :rolleyes: for all religious groups that claim specialness, not just Jews (to the extent they even claim specialness, which I realize is complicated).It's been pointed out above, but Judaism is more than just a religion. It's also an ethnicity, and to some small extent, a race. Most antisemitism is targeted more towards the non-religious element of the class. When you paint Jews with a broad brush, people will presume more about you than if you painted, say, Protestants with a broad brush.

[GameHat]

I did see that she didn't believe in the divinity of Jesus. But at the same time she was saying that she wants to remain Presbyterian, to practice a faith based on the Golden Rule, and to be able to keep on using all the psalms and songs she already knows. That's Christianity.

No, it is not.


The issue is obviously not that you want to pray with those who fit with your theological beliefs and perspectives as the differences between Judaism and Christianity are fundamental ones.

Yes.

Look, if what a person wants is a religious community that feels like a cultural fit, good for them. Personally, I would be extremely troubled by the whole "switch faiths to find a community I like". Christianity and Judaism each make certain fundamental claims that are mutually exclusive. Sure, they share an historical background to a point and sure there's a lot in common with them - but they can't both be completely true, because they disagree on some pretty serious things.

If what you want is to worship in a comfortable place, no problem. Pick the temple/synagogue/mosque you like. But if you take the religion seriously, well, you should probably start with the religion you believe is true and then find a community from there. And if you don't find any of them true, hell, start your own or just join a book club or something.

[Rand Rover]

Just a general hint: you'll usually be wrong, or at least off-base, to describe [group] as [adjective] unless [adjective] is, literally, a defining characteristic of [group].
Just a general remark to your general hint: I was indeed positing that self-righteousness was a defining characteristic of all religious Jews qua religious Jews (and I have now reduced "self-righteousness" to "self-centeredness" or something as discussed above).

It's been pointed out above, but Judaism is more than just a religion. It's also an ethnicity, and to some small extent, a race. Most antisemitism is targeted more towards the non-religious element of the class. When you paint Jews with a broad brush, people will presume more about you than if you painted, say, Protestants with a broad brush.

Of course I am aware of that about Judaism. When I am talking about Judaism the religion, I would expect people who are not complete idiots to realize that I am talking about Jews qua religious Jews and not Jews qua ethnic Jews. If someone is born ethnically Jewish and is now a Mormon, then nothing I've written in this thread applies to them.

Anyone stupid enough to "presume" something about me based on this thread can go on presuming; the opinions of the mentally addled don't hurt be a bit.

[DSeid]

Randy

1) Rand's initial claim "Plenty of orthodox Jews are self-righteous and kind of obnoxious" is not untrue. Plenty are and plenty are not. As a general rule any highly insular observant group will contain a sizable number of self-righteous individuals ... be they Christians, Muslims, Hindus, or Jews. It happens.

2) He has also been very good about admitting his statements slightly over broad brush and open to a better understanding of what "Chosen" means in the Jewish context.

[Malthus]

Not for the Jewish members. :) (I've suspected several rabbis as closet atheists even.)

Malthus, that's a different take (not saying wrong mind you) on Tikkun Olam from what I've always thought of it as - I've thought of it as the call for social action - sort of like the world was given to us "as is" and trying to make it more perfect is not the job of God but ours. Sort of like a skilled surgeon having his residents close up the case.

The Jewish concept of the Messiah is very different than the Christian one. But yeah, he is to be of the Davidic line and is to restore the Kingdom of Israel and bring peace. Generally a minor concept as is afterlife for that matter. What you do here and now for its own sake is the usual emphasis.

Same concept, different degree of utopianism. For some, Tikkun Olam is just social action; for others, a way to literally inspire the utopian society into being.

But yeah, it bears mentioning that (unlike many forms of Christianity) in most varieties of Judaism the afterlife and messianism are both fairly minor notions, about which Jews are by no means all agreed - the major emphasis in Judaism is on day-to-day living.

[Malthus]

Well, the concept of "the Chosen People" has a lot more facets than I thought. Thanks for fighting my ignorance everyone.

Lest anyone think I am an anti-Semite, I just want to state for the record that I'm an atheist and fairly anti-religion, so I've got piles of :dubious: and :rolleyes: for all religious groups that claim specialness, not just Jews (to the extent they even claim specialness, which I realize is complicated).

No worries. :)

The "chosen people" thing is much misunderstood, and that is hardly your fault - as you will see from the link below, at least one variety of Judaism (Reconstructionist) has at one point rejected it, precicely because it has the potential to be misunderstood as a form of ethnocentrism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews_as_a_chosen_people#Criticism_of_chosenness:_Reconstructionist_Judaism

Reconstructionist Judaism rejects the concept of chosenness. Its founder, Rabbi Mordecai Kaplan, said that the idea that God chose the Jewish people leads to racist beliefs among Jews, and thus must be excised from Jewish theology. This rejection of chosenness is made explicit in the movement's siddurim (prayer books).

For example, the original blessing recited before reading from the Torah from contains the phrase "asher bahar banu mikol ha’amim"; "Praised are you Lord our God, ruler of the Universe, who has chosen us from among all peoples by giving us the Torah." The Reconstructionist version is rewritten as "asher kervanu la’avodato", "Praised are you Lord our God, ruler of the Universe, who has drawn us to your service by giving us the Torah."

In the mid-1980s the Reconstructionist movement issued its Platform on Reconstructionism. It states that the idea of chosenness is "morally untenable", because anyone who has such beliefs "implies the superiority of the elect community and the rejection of others."[14]

Not all Reconstructionists accept this view. The newest siddur of the movement, Kol Haneshamah, includes the traditional blessings as an option, and some modern Reconstructionist writers have opined that the traditional formulation is not racist, and should be embraced.[15]

An original prayer book by Reconstructionist feminist poet Marcia Falk, The Book of Blessings has been widely accepted by both Reform and Reconstructionist Jews. Falk rejects all concepts relating to hierarchy or distinction; she sees any distinction as leading to the acceptance of other kinds of distinctions, and thus leading to prejudice. She writes that as a politically liberal feminist, she must reject distinctions made between men and women, homosexuals and heterosexuals, Jews and non-Jews, and to some extent even distinctions between the Sabbath and the other six days of the week. She thus rejects idea of chosenness as unethical. She also rejects Jewish theology in general, and instead holds to a form of religious humanism. Falk writes:

The idea of Israel as God's chosen people...is a key concept in rabbinic Judaism. Yet it is particularly problematic for many Jews today, in that it seems to fly in the face of monotheistic belief that all humanity is created in the divine image - and hence, all humanity is equally loved and valued by God...I find it difficult to conceive of a feminist Judaism that would incorporate it in its teaching: the valuing of one people over and above others is all to analogous to the privileging of one sex over another."[16]

Reconstructionist author Judith Plaskow also criticises the idea of chosenness, for many of the same reasons as Falk. A politically liberal lesbian, Plaskow rejects most distinctions made between men and women, homosexuals and heterosexuals, and Jews and non-Jews. In contrast to Falk, Plaskow does not reject all concepts of differences as inherently leading to unethical beliefs, and holds to a more classical form of Jewish theism than Falk.

A number of responses to these views have been made by Reform and Conservative Jews; they hold that these criticisms are against teachings that do not exist within liberal forms of Judaism, and which are rare in Orthodox Judaism (outside certain Haredi communities, such as Chabad). A separate criticism stems from the very existence of feminist forms of Judaism in all denominations of Judaism, which do not have a problem with the concepts of chosenness.

[twickster]

Anyone else curious about what the OP is thinking at this point?

[DocCathode]

I'm as curious as Kipling's elephant.

[Tracy Lord]

I was laid up with food poisoning this weekend, so didn't get to stick my nose into any services, but next weekend I plan to visit both a much more Reform-looking synagogue (http://www.alyth.org.uk/) and my local Unitarian church to see how they feel, and chat with the leaders and congregation members.

I feel I should repeat that I have no strong feelings on Mr. of Nazareth, except that people who go around telling other people to be nice to each other are A-OK, and that the only certain theological conviction I have is "there is probably a God, and they love us and want us to love and help one another". I decided to start looking at Judaism in the first place because, when I was growing up, most of the stories that resonated with me were in the Hebrew Bible (Ruth, Esther, Jael, Daniel), while the ones that I disagreed with and distanced me were in the New Testament (Paul).

I would suggest checking out the United Reformed Church (http://www.urc.org.uk/) in England. Liberal/moderate Presbyterians, Congregationalists, and mainline Churches of Christ combined to form the URC, which is perhaps why you're having problems finding a suitably liberal Presbyterian congregation.

The URC was one of the first churches I looked at over here, actually, because, like you said, it sucked up the UK Reform Presbyterian Church a while ago, but the teetotalism turned me off.

Right. Forgive me for saying this, but I think you are approaching this in the worst possible way. You are putting your political values first and looking for a religion that can justify them, rather than trying to find a faith that fits your beliefs about the nature of God and his relationship with the universe.

I'm a bit confused by this, as I feel like I am trying to find a faith (or place of worship) that fits my beliefs about God &c, which are, "love and actions based on love are mandatory, and actions/good works are the most important part". I got my political and social values from my church and my church community, and I'm now trying to continue along that path.

Tracy, I am still confused about what you are looking for.

<snip>

It seems that you are instead looking for a community that shares your interests in finding meaning in the Bible/Torah in a more abstract way (you'd like hearing and discussing the week's Dvar Torah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah_study#D.27var_Torah) I suspect), and a commitment to social justice (Tikkun Olam).

Probably because I'm a bit confused about what I'm looking for as well! The bit I've quoted seems right, though.

Shayna, I really appreciate the story you told in your post -- it made me think a lot.

If you can't decide, there's always macramé!

:D THERE'S HOPE YET.

I don't think I'll have anything more to say until I've checked out the services this weekend, but if anyone has more thoughts, I'm happy to hear them.

[Tracy Lord]

Right, on Saturday morning I went to the Reform-est synagogue I could find (http://www.alyth.org.uk) in north London, and then on Sunday I tried out a Unitarian chapel in Hampstead (http://www.rosslynhillchapel.com).

Synagogue
Firstly, I totally should have done more research to find out what you're supposed to do, because it sort of started out feeling as if I'd accidentally stepped into an anxiety dream, where the pages were all the wrong way around and everyone else knew the words but me. I was petrified that someone would turn around and try to speak to me, like the guy at the door did:

GREETER: Shalom Shabbat!
ME: ...Hi!

And the bit where they brought the Torah out was terrifying, because everybody else was touching it in different ways (prayer book corners? prayer shawls? fingertips? WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO DO HERE), so I turned to the guy beside me, who had shuffled in twenty minutes late with a young woman.

ME: Uh, okay, I don't know what to do?
GUY: I don't know either! I'm Catholic! I came with my fiancee!

But on the plus side, the prayer books were really accessible once you got past the right-to-left issue, with English translations and phonetic version of the Hebrew all on the same page, so you could follow along really easily. And all the service leaders, three of which were women, were really cheerful and had sharp shawls. The head rabbi giggled through one particular section of the scripture that was very precise about some historical contract work that had taken place on the Temple, which was charming.

I liked the theology in the sermon a lot, which hammered the social justice, and I like the idea of Rituals You Do Because They're Rituals as part of a worship service, except that these ones were nervewracking because they were so unfamiliar. Also that little voice going "CULTURAL APPROPRIATOR >:(" in my head. I definitely felt like an outsider, but no one was unfriendly or made me feel uncomfortable. (The rabbi made eye contact and smiled at me when I walked in, although I don't know if that's because I was new or because I probably looked terrified.) I did sprint for the door once the service was over, but I plan on going again next week, now that I have an idea of what to expect and do, and talking to somebody.

Basically, the content was absolutely what I am looking for. The form is very strange to me, but I like that it has such a strict form. I think I was too nervous about screwing up to appreciate it, and hopefully next week (I plan to go back) I'll be able to get a better feel for it. I'm also planning to contact the rabbi this week to see what he has to say.

Church
This service also hammered the social justice pretty hard, but with hymnals that turned the right way and a structure I was familiar with. According to the woman I sat next to, the congregation was down about 50% because the annual member's meeting was after the service, which is a kind of committed skiving I appreciate. The neighborhood around the church is very pleasant, and it's right next door to the deli with the secret American-foods back room. There were at least a dozen people in their 20s there, and kids were running around in a very confident and safe way, which made me feel good about the community.

However, the spiritual parts of the service were inoffensive to the point of blandness. I appreciate that there are no absolute do-not-doubt-this beliefs, but that also means that there's no imagery or a really solid feel of history and tradition. I know there is a strong Unitarian tradition, but it doesn't come across: all the hymns we sang were post-1970 and the service felt like it lacked identity and self-confidence.

After looking at what I liked and didn't like at each service, I think "BE NICE TO EACH OTHER RIGHT NOW" is the most important part of a faith for me, rapidly followed by "this earthly world is awesome" and "The Almighty wants everybody to enjoy ourselves". But I like something more to hang onto -- more specifics in the "awesome" and "enjoy ourselves". And a firm holy text that says "HELP THE POOR AND OPPRESSED" and "PARTY NOW". I like structure and I like a religion that requires action.

I felt more comfortable at the Unitarian service, because there was more active outreach to me as a new face, and possibly also because it didn't require anything of me. I will probably go back next week as well.

Man, I am going to have some epically holy weekends until I sort this out.

[Dangerosa]

Unitarian congregations vary a lot from congregation to congregations. Ours is large (about 600 member families and probably twice that who aren't members). We also have a strong musical tradition that includes having a full time music director. He has the choir - and sometimes the congregation - do everything from Beatles songs to Gregorian Chant (in Latin). We do tend to have a lot of spiritual parts of our service - a Day of the Dead celebration where the congregation is invited to light candles - hundreds of candles - in memory of those that have died. There is nothing that seems like lacking self confidence in the services we have - although sometimes identity is tough.

If you are comfortable there, you might want to give it a few more weeks. Some weeks our service is bland, other weeks it rocks. Our minister is on sabbatical right now, so from week to week we vary a lot - and even when she is there, she only speaks about half time with the times she doesn't speak varying in quality. If after a few weeks you are still looking for something more spiritual, talk to the members there, they may say that the congregation a little farther out of the way has a reputation for a more spiritual service.

[Eureka]

I agree with Dangerosa--although I've never attended a Unitarian service.

But I've attended a number of services in United Methodist churches which were generally aimed at a "blended" service, meaninng a blend of traditional and contemporary music (and style and liturgical elements). While there have been exceptions, in many cases it's not so much that any particular service will have both an obnoxiously upbeat contemporary Praise chorus and something written by Martin Luther (or Charles Wesley), but that over the course of time we sing some traditional hymns and some Praise choruses.

Of course, if having at least some traditional hymns is highly important to you, talk to the minister or to someone in the congregation and find out whether any given Sunday is typical. Maybe they do believe that the way to attract people is through blandness and contemporary music.

But if you speak to the minister (or even the members of the congregation) and explain what you are looking for, they may be able to direct you to a church which better meets your needs.

***
I will opt out of making suggestions with respect to the synagoague, on the grounds of REALLY being unqualified to do so, but I suspect that in a lot of ways the way to handle it is much the same as the way I would encourage you to handle my church--sure, maybe they aren't urging their members to knock on doors and make disciples--but if you are quiet, respectful, curious and open-minded, I'm not sure why they'd be bothered by you.

[Shayna]

After looking at what I liked and didn't like at each service, I think "BE NICE TO EACH OTHER RIGHT NOW" is the most important part of a faith for me, rapidly followed by "this earthly world is awesome" and "The Almighty wants everybody to enjoy ourselves". But I like something more to hang onto -- more specifics in the "awesome" and "enjoy ourselves". And a firm holy text that says "HELP THE POOR AND OPPRESSED" and "PARTY NOW". I like structure and I like a religion that requires action.Heh. If that's what you're looking for, you ought to love Judaism. My boss has a saying about all the Jewish holidays (well, most -- the High Holy days are exempt from this): They tried to kill us. We won. LET'S EAT! :D

Purim is a great one for this.

In the twelfth month, which is the month of Adar, on its thirteenth day ... on the day that the enemies of the Jews were expected to prevail over them, it was turned about: the Jews prevailed over their adversaries. - Esther 9:1

And they gained relief on the fourteenth, making it a day of feasting and gladness. - Esther 9:17

[Mordecai instructed them] to observe them as days of feasting and gladness, and sending delicacies to one another, and gifts to the poor. - Esther 9:22

. . .

According to the Talmud, a person is required to drink until he cannot tell the difference between "cursed be Haman" and "blessed be Mordecai," though opinions differ as to exactly how drunk that is. And of course we have a blast building our sukkah in the Fall. Every year we have more and more people over, because when they hear and see what fun it is, everyone wants to come!

Our sukkah building, 2006 (http://www.amschwartz.net/jillandthomas/Sukkah2006.html)
Our sukkah building, 2007 (http://www.amschwartz.net/jillandthomas/Sukkah2007.html)

We had 13 people for 2008!

And thanks for your kind words about my previous post. I'm very glad that it was helpful to you in some way.

Good luck stormin' the castle!