Texans first, Americans second?

[Qadgop the Mercotan]

The Mrs. and I were recently staying at a resort where we encountered another couple, who within minutes of meeting anyone new, quickly made sure that it was known that they were Texans (an odd behavior I'd previously only noted in Harvard grads).

While that was somewhat odd, what struck the two of us, and most of the other folks we talked to later about it, was their assertion that they were Texans first, and Americans second.

When queried about what this actually meant, they both elaborated that in their minds, the good of Texas was more important than the good of the country as a whole, that Texas had a legal right to secede from the union, and that they thought that the need for secession was becoming greater and greater as of late. They based this last assertion on how Texas would be sucked down by the current recession unless they left the union.

When it was pointed out that secession hadn't worked too well in the past, they insisted that the Texas National Guard would quickly demonstrate their loyalty to the State of Texas rather than the US by moving to help liberate the state, and that citizens of Texas would quickly enlist to do battle against any US forces sent in to prevent secession.

About this point, my basic philosophy of "don't engage the crazy persons in rational discussion" kicked in, and I tried to move on to other topics, like "aren't the clouds pretty? (I was told they are prettier in Texas)" and "I've a headache, I think I'll go lie down now (Texans don't need to lie down when they have headaches)".

I initially chalked all this up to being the eccentric opinions of a couple of extreme loons, such as each state or region has. But when I related this tale to friends who'd lived in Texas for over 4 years, they replied that this sort of attitude was really quite mainstream there. Perhaps not majority opinion, but loudly voiced by at least probably 15-20% of the population, and quietly felt by probably another 20-25%.

Further queries directed at other folks that had lived in Texas at one time or another mirrored that analysis.

So what's the real deal? Is this a mindset held by many mainstream residents of the Lone Star State? Lynn Bodoni, other Texas dopers, can you provide some more informed opinions about this? I always knew Texans were 'different', but are they really that different?

[samclem]

I can't wait for elucidator to read this one.

[Captain Carrot]

When queried about what this actually meant, they both elaborated that in their minds, the good of Texas was more important than the good of the country as a whole, that Texas had a legal right to secede from the union, and that they thought that the need for secession was becoming greater and greater as of late. They based this last assertion on how Texas would be sucked down by the current recession unless they left the union.

When it was pointed out that secession hadn't worked too well in the past, they insisted that the Texas National Guard would quickly demonstrate their loyalty to the State of Texas rather than the US by moving to help liberate the state, and that citizens of Texas would quickly enlist to do battle against any US forces sent in to prevent secession.Is it just me, or is this actually, literally, anti-American?

[whiterabbit]

Those people do sound more than a bit loony, but then I spent ten years in Texas growing up and yep, Texans do seem to view themselves differently than people elsewhere. Personally I put it down to those ten years of independence -- relative independence, anyway, since I think most of that time was just getting the paperwork for statehood in order but don't tell any Texans I said so. :)

I like Texas, but once getting away and looking back, it's more than a little weird sometimes.

[rpinrd]

Interesting. I've lived in Texas for about 15 years and I have NEVER heard this expressed seriously. Yes, many native Texans do seem to think that Texas is probably the greatest state in the Union, but to seriously express a secession plan complete with fully developed opinions about the Nat'l Guard's reaction - never. Granted, my experience has been limited to urban Houston and Dallas. I'm sure that you can find this type of attitude in the state, but I have yet to encounter it.

Frankly, the suggestion that as many as 45% of Texans are closet secessionists is somewhat insulting. For anyone else who weighs in, I'd be interested to hear where in the state these attitudes were encountered.

[whiterabbit]

I want to clarify -- I never heard anybody actually saying Texas should secede. But there's something about the way Texans think of Texas that I haven't encountered in any other state -- and I'm talking California, Georgia, Louisiana, Maryland, and now Idaho. I don't know how to describe it, except that perhaps back when the US was formed people felt similarly territorial about their states, before people started packing up and moving all the time the way we do these days.

[Koxinga]

I've read of some extremists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Texas_(group)) but I've never personally encountered anyone who would take them seriously. I imagine they're on par with latter-day "secessionist" movements mentioned in the "See Also" section of the linked article (Alaskan Independence Party, Second Vermont Republic). IOW, whackoes with too much time on their hands. Never, ever have I met someone who claimed to be a patriotic Texan while at the same time being anti-US.

I do introduce myself sometimes as from "Texas -- you know, in the US" -- or at least I did until GWB got too embarassing in national office.

OTOH, "SECEDE!" (http://www.texasflagman.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=21) bumper stickers still seem to be popular on the roads. As well as "Native Texan" (http://www.texasterritories.com/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=M13X01) and "I wasn't born here but I got here as fast as I could!" (http://patriciadebney.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/767gtotx2.jpg)

I guess you could say that the grain of the idea is there, usually to be referred to in a half-joking way, not seriously for now.

[phouka]

I grew up in San Antonio and lived north of Dallas for more than ten years, and I never met a person who held that strong of an opinion regarding the sanctity of Texas.

Oh, sure, there's a lot of joking about it, some posturing, and some ego strokes. You can find pasta shaped like the state, for heaven's sake. But the two you talked to were total loons, and most Texans would find them tiresome, to say the least.

[Todderbob]

I think your opinion is biased. And that just because a war was fought, and won, by the Union doesn't mean it's right.

There is nothing prohibiting Secession in the Constitution of the United States. The illegality of secession was only established by Texas v. White in 1869.

My view is simple - Self determination is key. While I don't think that any state has reasonable cause for secession, they should not be prevented from doing so. It violated the principles that founded this country and the principles of Self-Determination that this country agreed to (and had a major part in forming,) in the United Nations Charter.

[Wiggie]

You realize the vast majority of the people who express these opinions are expressing them with their tongues in their cheeks, correct?

I'm sure it's annoying, but so is constantly hearing "In Ohio we have <insert favorite restaurant, grocery store, etc.>. Why aren't there any here?" Or "In New Jersey we usually do it like <insert some sort of regional behavior>. It's so weird the way you do it here." Or "Why don't they sell <insert favorite regional food or brand> here? That's all they sell in Michigan." Or my favorite - "No one here knows how to drive in snow!" (Hint - it's not snow, dumbass, it's ice, and judging from the national news clips every winter, y'all don't do any better on ice...or snow for that matter!)

People can be annoying no matter where they're from. I can't imagine why you've fixated on those yahoos.

[Qadgop the Mercotan]

You realize the vast majority of the people who express these opinions are expressing them with their tongues in their cheeks, correct?

I'm sure it's annoying, but so is constantly hearing "In Ohio we have <insert favorite restaurant, grocery store, etc.>. Why aren't there any here?" Or "In New Jersey we usually do it like <insert some sort of regional behavior>. It's so weird the way you do it here." Or "Why don't they sell <insert favorite regional food or brand> here? That's all they sell in Michigan." Or my favorite - "No one here knows how to drive in snow!" (Hint - it's not snow, dumbass, it's ice, and judging from the national news clips every winter, y'all don't do any better on ice...or snow for that matter!)

People can be annoying no matter where they're from. I can't imagine why you've fixated on those yahoos.
We overlapped with them at the resort for 5 days. They returned to this theme constantly. That's a long time to keep up a 'tongue in cheek' schtick. And I'm a pretty good judge of BS, frankly.

And I'm certainly not fixated on them. I mention them here only because I was told by others that this attitude is more common in Texas than in other states. So I asked for input from others. Fighting ignorance, y'know?

[2ply]

I think your opinion is biased. And that just because a war was fought, and won, by the Union doesn't mean it's right.


Mad you have to pay people to work on your plantation?

[ShelliBean]

In the very few times I've visited the lovely state of Texas I noted that if there is one thing Texans are really fucking serious about, it is being from Texas. There is a huge amount of state pride there and there is nothing necessarily wrong with that.

But still, nothing as extreme as those people. That's just loony.

[Qadgop the Mercotan]

I think your opinion is biased.
My opinion? I do not yet hold an opinion about whether or not their assertions are mainstream in Texas. That's why I inquired here.

[Todderbob]

Mad you have to pay people to work on your plantation?That's cute. Because I'm for the rights of secession, I'm obviously for slavery, too. :rolleyes:

One can be for something, in principle, that another group supports, and not share the entirety of their world view.

If you look into the civil war, slavery was only one of the issues, although the main one by many definitions.


I do not now, nor have I ever, owned a plantation. Nor has anyone in my family, as far as I know. I'm also a northern boy, and was raised North of the Mason-Dixon line.

[Todderbob]

My opinion? I do not yet hold an opinion about whether or not their assertions are mainstream in Texas. That's why I inquired here.My mistake, I meant your premise, that secession hadn't worked out well in the past. Although you are correct, that doesn't necessarily mean it was the "correct" outcome.

While I'm staunchly pro-rights (anti-slavery, thank you 2ply), part of that is self-determination.

[Koxinga]

Speaking as a Texan, Todderbob, I don't consider your hobby horse to be a welcome addition to this thread. Injecting your civil war revisionism is off-topic, not least because most Texans in my experience draw a pretty clear distinction between Texas on the one hand and the down-home-in-Dixie "South" on the other.

Not to say that slavery isn't an ugly component of Texan history for its part, though. For instance, I believe it's a topic of some debate among historians to what extent the Texians of 1836 were fighting abolitionist Mexico for their "rights" to own slaves.

But one way or another, it's our history, get it? Not some Song of the South gimcrackery.

[2ply]

Because I'm for the rights of secession, I'm obviously for slavery, too.


Well, as long as you are upfront about your views...


If you look into the civil war, slavery was only one of the issues, although the main one by many definitions.


I am aware of the Civil War.

[Dangerosa]

I've met those people! So either this is a stunning coincidence or that opinion is held by more than one pair of Texans.

(I haven't had enough conversations with enough Texans to say whether than opinion is mainstream.)

[2ply]

The only experience I have in Texas was spending around a combined 8 hours in the Houston Airport. Based on this experience, I found the native Texans to be as much American as I but also very proud of their space faring technology.

[Todderbob]

Speaking as a Texan, Todderbob, I don't consider your hobby horse to be a welcome addition to this thread. Injecting your civil war revisionism is off-topic, not least because most Texans in my experience draw a pretty clear distinction between Texas on the one hand and the down-home-in-Dixie "South" on the other.

Not to say that slavery isn't an ugly component of Texan history for its part, though. For instance, I believe it's a topic of some debate among historians to what extent the Texians of 1836 were fighting abolitionist Mexico for their "rights" to own slaves.

But one way or another, it's our history, get it? Not some Song of the South gimcrackery.My point was not at all civil war revisionism. I'm not really sure where you got that from. My point was only to state that simply because secessions haven't worked in the past, doesn't mean that they're inherently wrong. Slavery was only mentioned after 2ply, not so cleverly, implied that I was for it.

[Sam Lowry]

I grew up in San Antonio and lived north of Dallas for more than ten years, and I never met a person who held that strong of an opinion regarding the sanctity of Texas.

Oh, sure, there's a lot of joking about it, some posturing, and some ego strokes. You can find pasta shaped like the state, for heaven's sake. But the two you talked to were total loons, and most Texans would find them tiresome, to say the least.

As someone who's lived her entire life in Texas (Wichita Falls, College Station, and Houston to be specific), I agree with this. There's people who joke about stuff like how Texas should be it's own country again, but would be horrified if there was a serious movement for seccession. I've never met anyone who seriously thought that Texas should be "liberated" from America; I'm not too surprised that there are a few people who think that, but it's nowhere near close to 15%.

Many Texans are unusually proud of being Texan, but not to the extent of being anti-American.

[lobotomyboy63]

I've lived in Texas for about 20 years. I've heard the "Texas can secede" bit from my brother (who has also lived here about 20 years). He wasn't advocating it but that he said it was technically true and he'd run into a few of its proponents. I've known a few people who probably secretly felt that way but didn't say so.

First I lived in El Paso, which other Texans have said "isn't really part of Texas." It's so far west, in the desert, overwhelmingly Hispanic, and its heart belongs to Mexico City, not D.C. Historically it was a convenient place to cross the Rio Grande, hence El Paso del Norte; today it seems like bump in the road without much to recommend it in the way of natural resources or anything else.

I dated a Hispanic woman over there who said she was a Texan, not a "wetback." Some make the distinction of having family ties that go way back; they're not Johnny-Come-Latelys, which they feel gives them more status. I thought it was ironic because she said when she lived in East Texas (Tyler area) they thought she was a Johnny-Come-Lately and wouldn't give her the time of day, and it really hurt her.

I haven't toured them extensively, but a lot of Texas towns seem bland. I've been to Midland-Odessa, which seemed dirty. I saw Lubbock, which rolls up its sidewalks at 9:00 PM. I also visited San Antonio...I did visit the Alamo once and left feeling that the Mexicans had some legitimate complaints. I didn't mention these to anyone, however. Some say the rodeo there is big time. I dinno: none of which were exciting. I've heard that Amarillo is pretty blah and I haven't heard anybody gush about Wichita Falls or Corpus Christi. I would guess the people in the OP hailed from one of those places and felt the need to be proud of something.:D

I've also been to Houston and Austin. Houston is big and there's stuff to do there but dayum the traffic...and it smelled bad when I was there. Austin is the place all Texans seem to want to live because UT/A makes it happenin', Bohemian, all that. I live in DFW, and if you're willing to crawl through the traffic, there's plenty going on. Supposedly a really low figure (10%?) of the people living in Dallas were born in Dallas---the rest are from somewhere else. So you won't get much of the secession attitude around here.

Among Texans it's probably about which city is the best.

Found this:

http://www.countrystyletx.com/articles/062/062_01.aspx

Supporting this view is language in the original Texas Constitution of 1836, which was repeated in the post-Reconstruction Texas Constutiton of 1876, declaring that, “(The people) have at all times the inalienable right to alter their government in such manner as they might think proper.”

A U.S. Supreme Court decision rendered in 1869 seems to obviate these persistent claims to sovereignty. Commenting on its 5-3 decision on Texas v. White, Chief Justice Salmon Chase stated that the Union is “composed of indestructable states,” and established on behalf of the high court of the land that secession is illegal.

[Shakes]

I think this Toutube link is appropiate: (Warning be prepared to piss your pants)

Real Men of Genius
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4PHV6NdCWE

As a Texan; I can say this commercial is pretty much spot on.

[stanger]

All I can do is speak from experience.

I have lived in San Antonio all my life - 55 years now. I have know plenty of people who are proud of Texas and being Texans, but no more so that I see other people from other states and countries show pride in their homeland. I have never run across the rabid Texans that I occasionally see mentioned here in the Dope.

I think a lot of people in other states expect Texans to act or be different. I remember meeting some people from the New England area sometime in the 1970s who asked me if we really had to shake the rattlesnakes out of our boots in the morning.

When I traveled to Atlanta for the Olympics several years ago, I had quite a few people ask me if I felt out of place there. I told them, no, I didn't think it much different at all. The way the people talked, how friendly they were, the heat and humidity - all made me feel right at home.

Just like other states, we have our share of fanatics that think Texas, or some aspect of it, is the best their is. Ever try to compare colleges with an Aggie?

I tend to think that a lot of these more radical Texans tend to escape the state now and then, and go about preaching the Texas gospel to others who are unfortunate to cross their path. Just ignore them. They always come back home again. We ignore them too.

[Bridget Burke]

My point was not at all civil war revisionism. I'm not really sure where you got that from. My point was only to state that simply because secessions haven't worked in the past, doesn't mean that they're inherently wrong. Slavery was only mentioned after 2ply, not so cleverly, implied that I was for it.`

But you're obviously not a Texan, so your opinion on this thread doesn't count!

Re the OP: I've lived here most of my life & have noticed quite a bit of Lone Star Chauvinism. However, the people QtheM met were expressing a minority opinion.

[BrassyPhrase]

I think this youtube link is appropriate: (Warning be prepared to piss your pants)

Real Men of Genius
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4PHV6NdCWE

As a Texan; I can say this commercial is pretty much spot on.

That one has always cracked me up because it is perfect!

I moved to the Houston burbs when I was nine from Kentucky. (I've said it before--my family runs the gamut from hillbilly ALL the way to redneck.)

I've basically lived in that area of Texas since. I really enjoy Texas. There are some aspects of it I don't like, but no other place feels like home.

That said, when I got to go Australia a few years ago, Aussies would ask "where are you from?" I knew it was obvious we were Americans, so my family and I would say "Texas."

And it was fun...they all knew some mate that had been in Texas.

I have also in chatting, apologized for being from Texas "Btw, sorry, I never voted for him."

[Unregistered Bull]

I dated a Hispanic woman over there who said she was a Texan, not a "wetback." Some make the distinction of having family ties that go way back; they're not Johnny-Come-Latelys, which they feel gives them more status. I thought it was ironic because she said when she lived in East Texas (Tyler area) they thought she was a Johnny-Come-Lately and wouldn't give her the time of day, and it really hurt her.

Tejanos are Native Texans. Their own culture and music separate from Johnny-Come-Latelys. At one time, most of Anglo Texas wouldn't have given her the time of day. Texas was an extremely bigoted place where Texas Rangers even participated in an ethnic cleansing of sorts against non-immigrant, US Citizen, Texas Hispanics in the Rio Grande Valley at the turn of the century. Official and unofficial discrimination against the group was extremely prevalent until the1960s and 1970s.

[Ruken]

There is a pledge of allegiance to Texas, which is recited sometimes. I'm not sure where though. I never heard it when I was in El Paso, but EP isn't a very Texasey place. Anyone know how common it is to recite the TX PoA? Compared to other states, assuming they even have one? I found it odd that it even existed, but maybe they're common.

[lobotomyboy63]

The Texas Capitol bldg is 14 feet taller than the US Capitol:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_State_Capitol

The San Jacinto Monument is also about 14 feet taller than the Washington Monument:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Jacinto_Monument

Prolly not a co inky dink.

[Muffin]

Paging LouisB.

[Koxinga]

There is a pledge of allegiance to Texas, which is recited sometimes. I'm not sure where though. I never heard it when I was in El Paso, but EP isn't a very Texasey place. Anyone know how common it is to recite the TX PoA? Compared to other states, assuming they even have one? I found it odd that it even existed, but maybe they're common.

I was aware that there was a Texas PoA, but never learned it nor was required to recite it.

We were taught the Texas state song (http://www.tsl.state.tx.us/ref/abouttx/statesong.html), "Texas, Our Texas"* in third grade music class. Also spent a year in eighth grade on Texas history, but I understand kids in other states have similar classes as well.

*Of course, the real state song is "The Eyes of Texas" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Eyes_of_Texas), but some folks tend to disagree for some reason.

[Audrey Levins]

As a native Texan I've heard people joke about our "right to secede" etc., but I've never heard anybody discuss it seriously.

The thing about Texans is that if they travel out of the country and they are asked where they are from, they will say Texas. Not America. Even the tourism board's slogan is "Texas: It's Like a Whole Other Country." We are taught Texas history in school; you find the state flag everywhere. (IIRC Texas is the only state that can fly its state flag at the same height as the American flag, and/or fly it by itself, without the American flag.)

I could go on.

The thing is, I can see how this looks to outsiders, but I don't think most Texans take it seriously. It's like being loyal to your school; chances are good you're going to be most fanatical about it to someone from another school. Sure we're proud of being Texans, but the two people in the OP are just crazy. Everybody has their fair share of crazies; they are far from the norm.

[lobotomyboy63]

There is a pledge of allegiance to Texas, which is recited sometimes. I'm not sure where though. I never heard it when I was in El Paso, but EP isn't a very Texasey place. Anyone know how common it is to recite the TX PoA? Compared to other states, assuming they even have one? I found it odd that it even existed, but maybe they're common.

Like the state flower, state bird, etc. they're probably on the books somewhere. When I was in about 8th grade, our history teacher made us sing the state song.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illinois_(state_song)

Funny, I remember the opening being: "1818 saw your founding Illinois, Illinois...."

Anyway, there's a boatload of them:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:United_States_state_songs

It turns out that the Illinois State Capitol is taller than most:

With a total ground height of 361 feet (110 m), the Illinois capitol is the tallest non-skyscraper capitol, even exceeding the height of the United States Capitol in Washington, DC. The only state capitols taller than it are the non-classical designs found in Louisiana and Nebraska, which opted for more modern buildings for their current capitols.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illinois_State_Capitol

So neener! :D

[Attack from the 3rd dimension]

Some Newfoundlanders have a similar 'Newfoundland first, Canada second' outlook, and argue that the island would have been better off staying a Republic or separate Dominion rather than joining Canada. They often point to Iceland as a model of how they could have gone it alone, and point to dodgy results in the vote to join the Confederation of Canada. If you meet these people, they will also point out how they are Newfoundlanders, not Canadians.

I mention this just to demonstrate that Texas is not the only place with this phenomenon.

[Koxinga]

Some Newfoundlanders have a similar 'Newfoundland first, Canada second' outlook, and argue that the island would have been better off staying a Republic or separate Dominion rather than joining Canada. They often point to Iceland as a model of how they could have gone it alone, and point to dodgy results in the vote to join the Confederation of Canada. If you meet these people, they will also point out how they are Newfoundlanders, not Canadians.

I mention this just to demonstrate that Texas is not the only place with this phenomenon.

What about people from Quebec? Not stirring a hornet's nest, genuinely curious.

[Sunrazor]

This isn't really an unknown phenomenon throughout the western U.S. Dreams of secession exist in almost every state west of the Mississippi; when I was younger I spent several creative writing classes sketching out a novel about that very thing (I still have several hundred pages of manuscript). My research led me to believe that a Western secession would splinter because Texas and California had briefly been republics.

Not that all Texans are like this. We have several friends who live or grew up in Texas, and they are all loyal American citizens who think their home state is the finest our nation has to offer. I'd say the couple Qadgop met was posing a little and probably hadn't traveled outside their native land all that much. All of the Texans I know are much more gracious.

[Captain Carrot]

(IIRC Texas is the only state that can fly its state flag at the same height as the American flag, and/or fly it by itself, without the American flag.)

Any state's flag can fly by itself, but definitely not at the same height.

[Tully Mars]

... other Texas dopers, can you provide some more informed opinions about this? I always knew Texans were 'different', but are they really that different?
No, not really. Texas is pretty unique geographically, but people are people just about everywhere you go.

Since most of Texas of it is rural, you'll meet quiet a few rugged individualists with a self-reliance mindset. I would venture that the same is true in most western states.

Texas also has a fairly unique history and it is taught with enthusiasm (and a little bias) in the school systems. Proabaly moreso than in most states.

I would suspect that most people who become obnoxious about their Texasness are feeling a bit 'unsophisticated' in their surroundings and are over-compensating.

[Hunter Hawk]

A few years ago, I was in the Newark airport walking toward one of the restrooms when a couple of guys came walking out. One was angrily declaiming to the other, "Man, everything's bigger in Texas! Even the bathrooms are bigger in Texas!"


Those Texans take their state pride seriously...

[whiterabbit]

I wish I remembered more from my 7th grade Texas history class -- it was a full year, and Texas has plenty of interesting history. Not always pretty, but interesting. I should look for some books. I do remember the teacher being a sweet woman who though her class was far more important than it really was. And we didn't get US history until 8th grade. Texas came first.

I don't want to live there again, though, the climate would kill me.

[Glazer]

Why at the end of the "Real Men of Genius" commercial do they show a march on the Georgia state capital protesting the new state flag?

[The Flying Dutchman]

Texas is an awesome state. I spent a week there several years ago. I can understand the pride and the hyperbole that goes with it.



Some Newfoundlanders have a similar 'Newfoundland first, Canada second' outlook, and argue that the island would have been better off staying a Republic or separate Dominion rather than joining Canada. They often point to Iceland as a model of how they could have gone it alone, and point to dodgy results in the vote to join the Confederation of Canada. If you meet these people, they will also point out how they are Newfoundlanders, not Canadians.

I mention this just to demonstrate that Texas is not the only place with this phenomenon.

True, and that goes for Quebec, Manitoba, Alberta and BC. Provincial politics and provincial identification is big in these provinces. I don't know enough about the others.

Except Ontario, where I was raised for 25 years up until 75. Never heard of the term Ontarion back then. We were Canadians period. I think it is because we pretty well ran the whole country.

[Tangent]

Texan here, from the DFW area and with relatives all across the state.

Yes, we have a lot of state pride. It's a big place, and a lot of people who don't live in the cities probably don't meet a lot of people from other states. We have an awful lot of small towns here. Yet there is a lot of variety in the state's culture and geography. You can travel a good ways and see a lot of different things without ever leaving the state. So there are some reasons why we identify strongly with being from here. If I were traveling abroad and someone asked where I was from, I probably would say first that I was from Texas. It doesn't make me any less proud of being a US citizen. I think most people would have already guessed that I was an American.

No, Texans do not seriously entertain the idea of seceding from the US. I've only ever heard it referred to in a joking manner. The people QtM talked to sound like ignorant idiots. Every state has them. Texas has more people than most states, so maybe we have more idiots, too. It's a percentage thing.

There are a lot of Texans in the military. In my experience, they are all proud to serve the country--the entire United States. I attended Texas A&M University, a school extremely proud of its military heritage. I never heard any "Texas first, the US second" attitude there with regard to military service. That would not have gone over well at all down there.


Regarding the pledge (http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~rjensen/freelance/attack64.htm):
The Legislature passed, and Gov. Rick Perry [in 2003] signed into law, a bill ordering all school districts to require students to pledge allegiance to the U.S. and Texas flags once during each school day,

First, let me say that I agree with the author of the cited article that this requirement is fucking stupid (my words). In fact, just a couple of years ago the Texas pledge was revised to ADD the words, "under God." I am a public high school teacher and at my school each morning the US and the Texas pledges are led over the PA system, followed by a moment of silence. There may be other districts and schools that don't follow this requirement--I don't know of any enforcement policy by the state. In my school, I don't believe there are any teachers who force their students to comply, though in my classroom the majority of students do stand and recite the pledges. They've been doing it for years, so it is kind of ingrained in them. We didn't do it when I was a student, and I feel that requiring rote recitations of a pledge (even ignoring the religious indoctrination) is detestable.

[Jettboy]

I'm a Texan, a proud son of Fort Worth. Texas is a sometimes hilarious, sometimes scary, always unique place; it's the only place that's ever really felt like 'home'. Currently living in Florida, I consider myself a Texan 'in exile'.

I have met a few secessionists, hardcore Republic of Texas militia types, that took all of that shit seriously. Most 'normal' Texans just repeat the "Seceed!" stuff as a gag.

[Muffin]

Except Ontario, where I was raised for 25 years up until 75. Never heard of the term Ontarion back then. We were Canadians period. I think it is because we pretty well ran the whole country.I take it that you resided in southern Ontario.

Many folks in north-western Ontario are serious about either becoming a separate province, or signing on with Manitoba.

[Muffin]

Quebec? That's a very real separation movement, in which every few years they vote on it and tally at just under half. A lot of thought has been put into how to handle the separation (e.g. soverign or soverign but associated).

[2ply]

The thing about Texans is that if they travel out of the country and they are asked where they are from, they will say Texas. Not America. Even the tourism board's slogan is "Texas: It's Like a Whole Other Country." We are taught Texas history in school; you find the state flag everywhere. (IIRC Texas is the only state that can fly its state flag at the same height as the American flag, and/or fly it by itself, without the American flag.)

Snopes says that's a myth (http://www.snopes.com/history/american/texasflag.asp). I suppose you could fly the Texas flag as the same height as the US flag in the sense that this is a free country and no one is going to lock you up for it, but the Texas flag doesn't get any special treatment in the flag code.

Texans going abroad and telling people their are form Texas works because Texas is one of the few states a foreigner could probably identity. Californians could do the same thing, I betcha. When I went abroad I had to explain that Michigan was up by Canada, if anyone asks which state I was from.

[Lynn Bodoni]

I think that I'm an American first, and a Texan a very close second. However, I don't like football or country music, so to many people I'm not a true Texan. :D

The thing about Texas, and for that matter many of the Western states, is that it was settled (by white people) by people who were not happy with wherever they were from. They thought that the grass was greener in Texas. It's not. In fact, I will state as a fact that the grass in the Fort Worth region of Texas is NEVER as green as it is in the Springfield area of Missouri. However, having said that, I vastly prefer Fort Worth, or any part of Texas, over any part of just about any other state. To get back to my point, Texas was settled by white people who didn't like the back East regions, and thought that they were too civilized. We still get people coming to live in Texas because they are looking for a more self-reliant lifestyle. And then they're surprised that being a Texan doesn't mean that you automatically get issued a six-shooter, a ranch, and a herd of longhorns. :dubious:

IME, most Texans are proud of being Texans, prouder than other states' residents are of being citizens of their respective states. I think that we have some reasons to be proud of our state, but I also think that we have reasons to be ashamed of our state. Again, to many people, I am not a true Texan.

I wouldn't call the "Texas first and US second" mindset really mainstream, but I certainly wouldn't call it a very small minority of Texans, either. It's not rare, but the people who believe that are so vocal about it that they tend to stick in the mind.

Oh, and not only do we have Texas shaped pasta, but we have Texas shaped bricks/pavers.

[The Flying Dutchman]

I take it that you resided in southern Ontario.

Many folks in north-western Ontario are serious about either becoming a separate province, or signing on with Manitoba.

Good point. I spent several years(75 to 78) in the central time zone of northwestern Ontario(back then it was half a year on TB time and the other half on Winnipeg time) doing most of our business with Winnipeg and hearing a lot of resentment towards Toronto which appeared to be a million miles away.

[ExTank]

I grew up in San Antonio and lived north of Dallas for more than ten years, and I never met a person who held that strong of an opinion regarding the sanctity of Texas.

Oh, sure, there's a lot of joking about it, some posturing, and some ego strokes. You can find pasta shaped like the state, for heaven's sake. But the two you talked to were total loons, and most Texans would find them tiresome, to say the least.

I lived in and around Dallas for 12 years myself, and agree with phouka.

IME, where this attitude existed at all (and never to the degree expressed in the OP) you were apt to run into it mostly in more rural areas.

[Contrapuntal]

The Austin Lounge Lizards weigh in. (http://www.guntheranderson.com/v/data/stupidte.htm)


One more stupid song about Texas
For miles and miles it rambles on
Biggest egos, biggest hair, biggest liars anywhere
Let's sing another stupid Texas song


By God we're so darn proud to be from Texas - yahoo!
Even of our pride we're proud and we're proud of that pride, too
Our pride about our home state is the proudest pride indeed
And we're proud to be Americans, until we can secede

[dalej42]

I also lived in Dallas for a few years. I didn't really see too much of the Texas pride thing. But, I did notice some quirks.

1. You see the Texas flag everywhere. I don't see the Arizona flag anywhere besides state government buildings. But, every car dealer seems to have a gigantic Texas state flag.

2. Beer bottles often have "True to Texas" or something else like that printed on the label.

3. A lot of truck commercials will say their trucks are built Texas tough.

[The Batman]

I used to live in Texas and I never saw that kind of behavior. From my experience Texans are very loyal to the state but not to the point of wanting to secede from the country if things didn't go their way. Tucking your tail and running from the economy doesn't seem very Texan anyway.

I think these kinds of folks are found all over the country. In California I knew a lot of people that looked down on just about every other state; to them California - and especially San Diego - is the pinnacle of western civilization.

[BlakeTyner]

A lot of what I was going to say has already been said upthread, but I'll hit the high points.

I'd say that it's true that your run-of-the-mill Texan is extremely proud of the state and his place in it. I've never been to another state where the state flag was flown with the frequency that it is in Texas. Add to that the propensity for decorating our houses and yards with lone stars, and it's fairly easy to see.

As for me personally, I always identify myself as being from Texas as opposed to the United States. I've been thinking about it, and I can't really say that I'm a Texan first and an American second, but the two are at the very least equal. Like someone else said, I'd rather live anywhere in Texas than anywhere else. I happen to love the Piney Woods where I'm from, but I could handle the plains of North Texas, the scrub of Central Texas, the mesas...hell, even the grit of the Permian basin.

Having said that...if you take a gander at my location you'll notice that I'm only 25-30 miles from the Louisiana state line, and there is a distinctive coonass influence in our food, culture, etc. I'd say that the folks from Louisiana are just as loony about their state, to the extent that a lot of them despise Texas. The Acadian culture is probably "deeper" than many others in the U.S. Lots of us sound like we're speaking a foreign language, but those cats actually DO.

Folks from Arkansas (again, right up the road) tend to kind of recognize the reputation (undeserved, really) of their state and keep quiet. Okies, like some of my coonass neighbors, hate Texas. My guess is because it tends to overshadow them.

I can't really explain it. When we go to Shreveport for shopping or whatever, there is this indescribable sense of relief and pride when crossing back over the state line. It's like, "whew, I'm home." I mean sure, there are logical points I could cite, such as the lack of a state income tax, our very nice concealed handgun license law, lots of money/infrastructure...but that's all secondary to just being in this state of mind.

[lobotomyboy63]

IME, where this attitude existed at all (and never to the degree expressed in the OP) you were apt to run into it mostly in more rural areas.

Which, geographically, is most of Texas. 2nd only to California in population, but 2nd only to Alaska in area. Texas has about 80 people per square mile, ranked 26th. A Texan might proudly proclaim that we're denser than about half the states. You can interpret that as you like. :D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_population_density

[Chronos]

This attitude isn't at all unique to Texas. Plenty of folks in other states think that Texas should secede, too.

Seriously, though, Montanans have a touch of this attitude, too (you're not a real Montanan unless your great-grandfather was born and buried here), but they (I don't say "we" because by that standard, I'm not a "real Montanan") don't seem to be as rigid about it. A Montanan will still regard someone from Wyoming or Idaho or Alaska, or even some place like Vermont, as "one of us". It's just "Californians" who are regarded as a problem (though admittedly, "Californians" encompasses a lot more than just California).

[robby]

I'm a native-born Texan. All of my family is there. After college, though, I joined the Navy, which sent me all over the U.S. I maintained Texas legal residency my whole time in the Navy (10+ years), with Texas license plates on my car, a Texas driver's license, and voting in Texas elections by absentee ballot.

However, since my last duty station was in New England, and my wife is from here, I ended up settling down in Connecticut.

As the OP mentioned, I do tend to mention to acquaintances when I meet them that I'm originally from Texas. I'm proud of my home state, and I think it makes me kind of unique here in New England. My office cube has Texas paraphernalia (e.g paper weights, coffee mugs), for instance.

That being said, I find the attitudes expressed by the people the OP met to be very unusual. As a U.S. Navy officer, I took an oath swearing to support and defend the Constitution of the United States. My first loyalty has always been to the U.S. as a whole.

I'm proud of Texas like I'm proud of the university I attended or a local sports team. Texans definitely talk big, but for most, it is just posturing.

If some nutjobs in the Texas state legislature ever seriously tried to secede, I don't think very many Texans would support them, nor would the Texas National Guard. Putting state loyalty above national loyalty is so 19th century.

[Koxinga]

Having said that...if you take a gander at my location you'll notice that I'm only 25-30 miles from the Louisiana state line, and there is a distinctive coonass influence in our food, culture, etc. I'd say that the folks from Louisiana are just as loony about their state, to the extent that a lot of them despise Texas. The Acadian culture is probably "deeper" than many others in the U.S. Lots of us sound like we're speaking a foreign language, but those cats actually DO.

Ah, I tend to forget about East Texas sometimes. . . and Louisiana, boy howdy, you know Mexico isn't the only third world country on our borders. BTW, what's a "coonass"? I know it isn't what I'm thinking, but is it all Louisianans or a certain subculture?


By God we're so darn proud to be from Texas - yahoo!
Even of our pride we're proud and we're proud of that pride, too
Our pride about our home state is the proudest pride indeed
And we're proud to be Americans, until we can secede.

That song kind of makes me proud, you know? :D Not just of Texas but of Austin . . . I'm getting homesick.

[Contrapuntal]

That song kind of makes me proud, you know? :D Not just of Texas but of Austin . . . I'm getting homesick.Well, if Texas does secede from us, it can pry Austin from my cold, dead fingers. We're keeping Austin.

[Attack from the 3rd dimension]

Texas is an awesome state. I spent a week there several years ago. I can understand the pride and the hyperbole that goes with it.





True, and that goes for Quebec, Manitoba, Alberta and BC. Provincial politics and provincial identification is big in these provinces. I don't know enough about the others.

Except Ontario, where I was raised for 25 years up until 75. Never heard of the term Ontarion back then. We were Canadians period. I think it is because we pretty well ran the whole country.

I mention Newfoundland versus the other provinces for several reasons:
1) I lived a long time in Newfoundland, and after living in the US and regarding Canada as a homogenous land of pleasant people "just like us" (tm) I was surprised by the knee jerk separatism of Newfoundland. In particular, they are like Texas in that they joined up voluntarily.

2) Quebec was conquered by Britain, and forced to join up. They have had a legitimate beef which is well known. I felt Quebec is perhaps more like the states of the former CSA. I have known a few Quebecoise who are separatists, and I think they are at best unrealistic in their goals.

3) I now live out west (BC) and haven't seen much of the fabled western separatism. I will keep an eye out though.

[Qadgop the Mercotan]

Thanks for the input, all. It seems that while Texas is different, it ain't that different.
Well, if Texas does secede from us, it can pry Austin from my cold, dead fingers. We're keeping Austin.
I'm glad you mentioned Austin. It reminded me that this couple was dead against Austin and anything/anyone from there. They spoke of it as disdainfully as McCarthyites spoke of Moscow. And they made no bones about how the "wrong sort of people" lived there.

[fifty-six]

I grew up in Texas. I spent well over 20 years there. I have lived briefly in several other states till moving to Alaska for the last almost 12 years.

Even though I have only been back to Texas twice in the last 12 years I still feel Texan.

Funny thing is I am more proud to be an Alaskan much more. I love Alaska the way George Bush loves Texas. "It is just Awesome" Funnier still I sometimes feel a big ol'twinge of guilt about that. And usually it doesn't take long for someone to know I use to be from Texas. It is ingrained. I just cant seem to turn my back on the state completely. When I go back it fits like a good boot. Damn fine state Texas is. And forgive me Texas, really, but you ain't got shit on Alaska.

Wow! That felt like i just stabbed my self in the heart.

Alaskan First
Texan Second
American Third

That felt a bit better

[Koxinga]

Thanks for the input, all. It seems that while Texas is different, it ain't that different.

I'm glad you mentioned Austin. It reminded me that this couple was dead against Austin and anything/anyone from there. They spoke of it as disdainfully as McCarthyites spoke of Moscow. And they made no bones about how the "wrong sort of people" lived there.

Well, there you go. No further proof of insanity needed.

Sounds like they were a very vocal sort in many respects.

[Muffin]

Someone should mention to those two folks that Canada is annexing Austin.

[LouisB]

I was born in Dallas in 1940 and lived in Texas until 1964. I began grade school in 1946 and I remember a LOT of Texas is best indoctrination. I remember Texas history being taught as if nothing worthwhile ever took place there until the first White people came along. I remember a place where racism was commonplace and I remember a pervasive air of potential violence. I remember a place where conformance to local standards was not only expected but required. I remember a place where lip-service to religion was common while actions were usually the direct opposite. I remember a place where questioning of local values was viewed with horror and I do remember a lot of people who exhibited the kind of behavior mentioned by the OP*. Basically, I remember a place populated by people who thought they were special just by virtue of being born there; the truth was that their forebears probably ran out of money in Texas and just stayed there instead of moving further west. I couldn't stand the place and leaving there was the best thing I ever did. (I know I've made noises off and on about returning to Texas, but I've since realized that I would be foolish to do so.)

On the other hand, Texas is a place where many/most of the residents are basically warm and friendly but they manage to elect some of the most moronic politicians who ever lived and who have passed more insane laws, I believe, than most states.

*I've often thought that people who are overly boastful of being Texans secretly know what a restrictive place it is but lack the will or means to leave.

[BlakeTyner]

Ah, I tend to forget about East Texas sometimes. . . and Louisiana, boy howdy, you know Mexico isn't the only third world country on our borders. BTW, what's a "coonass"? I know it isn't what I'm thinking, but is it all Louisianans or a certain subculture?


Interestingly, the term has a wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coonass

However, I didn't look at it before I used that term in my post, and only now found out that it can be considered an ethnic slur, which I didn't mean to connote. The folks I know who have always used the term wore it as a badge of honor. Nevertheless, my apologies for using what amounts to a racist-type term at the Dope. Not my intention.

I suppose the way I thought it was used was to describe a certain subculture of Louisiana. Generally Acadiana, but probably it extends a bit further than that. The folks that speak a mis-mash of French and English, eat whatever they can pull out of the swamp, and are viciously proud of their heritage.

Though I'm not one of 'em, and we tend to look at them a bit sideways, I feel some measure of kinship with them. Maybe because we're so close geographically, maybe because they're truly proud of where they come from.

Vis-a-vis Austin -- I think most folks from outside that area view it as something of a Texas anomaly; it is a refuge of blue amidst the red sea (which, I reckon, is what makes it attractive to a goodly sum of Dopers.) I see Austin as quirky-kooky in that Haight-Ashbury sort of way. I've been there, but I'm probably influenced more by "Slacker" than my own visits.

Forgot to mention in my original reply that the OP's story is, to me, also out of the ordinary. While we talk a big game, I don't know anyone who seriously would want to secede from the Union.

[unclviny]

I was born in Houston (in 1965) and have never moved, years ago I was walking back across the footbridge in El Paso when the Immigration guy asked my nationality and I responded "Texan".

I work in north Louisiana (Mansfield) and spend a lot of time here and other places but Texas is "home" (I have a Texas shaped Texas flag patch on my sleeve right now).

I have been to plenty of places that were great for visiting
(northern California is really pretty, southern Utah was very nice, New Plymouth, New Zealand was a truly amazing experience, northwest Colorado in the winter was very scenic)
but I've never seen a place I wanted to live in.

I have travelled a good bit and I always tell folks I'm a Texan when they ask where I'm from, a big, booming "Howdy" parts folks like the Red sea and always gets me GREAT service!

The pride-thing gets a little strange sometimes but it is understandable given our state's history (my favorite story was that we rented out the Texas Navy).

"come and take it" (the Texan attitude at it's best)
Unclviny

[ChrisBooth12]

I have family that lives in Austin and tells me of people like this. She does not think Texas is anything special but the people there swear by it saying how its the best and most beautiful state in the nation. Her daughter was born there and claims by it to. Her mom can't see the beauty that Texans see. Texas as beautiful...ok

Besides we all know California is the best. I mean c'mon! Best looking women. Hollywood, Silicon Valley, Homboldt County! The most diversity!

Really thought everybody loves there own state Texans just do it in a different way then other people not that they do it more

[Hypnagogic Jerk]

What about people from Quebec? Not stirring a hornet's nest, genuinely curious.
I definitely consider myself a Quebecer before considering myself a Canadian. And that's probably the case with a large number of Quebecers, likely a majority. Some already mentioned our active independence movement, but a good number of federalists (opponents of independence) do consider themselves Quebecers first as well. (Though they may also be more likely to see themselves as "French-Canadians" rather than "Quebecers" -- if they're francophones that is.)

This is to be expected when we mostly speak a different language from the rest of the country, leading to us having our own home-grown cultural referents that are virtually unknown in the rest of Canada, while not knowing all that much about their own culture either. Other provinces do have their own regional identities, and their own interpretations of Canadian history, but in our case the rest of Canada doesn't know or care about what we're doing, and we don't really know what they're doing either.

[Attack from the 3rd dimension]

I definitely consider myself a Quebecer before considering myself a Canadian. And that's probably the case with a large number of Quebecers, likely a majority. Some already mentioned our active independence movement, but a good number of federalists (opponents of independence) do consider themselves Quebecers first as well. (Though they may also be more likely to see themselves as "French-Canadians" rather than "Quebecers" -- if they're francophones that is.)

This is to be expected when we mostly speak a different language from the rest of the country, leading to us having our own home-grown cultural referents that are virtually unknown in the rest of Canada, while not knowing all that much about their own culture either. Other provinces do have their own regional identities, and their own interpretations of Canadian history, but in our case the rest of Canada doesn't know or care about what we're doing, and we don't really know what they're doing either.

Curiously, we do care. We also try to know.

[Little Plastic Ninja]

I'm not quite a native Texan, but I've lived here for my whole adult life. On purpose, too. :p

Texas pride is interesting stuff. We know our schools are not the best and our politics are not the most civilized. We know that our landscapes are not the prettiest, even though a great green hill speckled all over with bluebonnets is a sight to make the heart ache.

Still, we do have a rich history and a well-deserved reputation for being stubborn, proud, independent, tough, and friendly. In some ways we're like Borogravia in Monstrous Regiment: "They're not the most beautiful mountains, but they're OUR mountains!"

Many Texans really hate being called on this and will thoroughly and dogmatically defend their home state. I am very guilty of this: I get very defensive when my state is characterized as an ignorant backwater. The people who say this mostly have never been here or have not been here in, say, forty years. There's ballet and theater and museums and art in Houston and Austin and Dallas. There is even (or was, twelve years ago) a surprising burgeoning little artist community in Corpus Christi, the city that time forgot somewhere in 1974.

I love it here and I'm proud of being a Texan. I get teased for it by my Canadian friends and I tease right back: just like I wear cowboy boots and a cowboy hat and ride a horse to work every day, they live in igloos and drink moose milk.

We have a damn weird sense of humor. My father, native Texan and avowed coonass, was made an Admiral in the Texas Navy when he retired from the US Navy. He was made so by then-Governor George Bush. I believe part of his commission is permission to take the USS Texas (http://www.usstexasbb35.com/) out for a spin whenever he wants to. :D I often relate, with my usual perverse pride, the story of how the Democrats of the Texas House of Representatives escaped the state under cover of night to avoid a vote to gerrymander their districts. It's a ridiculous-but-true story that sounds more like a Coen Brothers movie than reality (for that matter, by the way, No Country For Old Men has as perfect a rendering of small town Texas as I've ever seen).

But Texas separatists? They exist but they're pretty rare and get filed under the same mental heading as UFOlogists for most of us -- relatively harmless, most of the time, and kind of off.

Oh, and a lot has changed in the last forty years. I learned a good deal about pre-Western civilizations in Texas history. I do remember hearing some interesting stories about the Carancahua, for example.

[Hypnagogic Jerk]

Curiously, we do care. We also try to know.
Well, remember that most of what we produce is in French, a language most of you learned in school but do not remember much about other than what you see on cereal boxes. ;) Also, many things we produce would not get nearly the same reception in the rest of Canada, where people do not know anything about the cultural background.

The existence of "two solitudes" is a near-inescapable consequence of the demographic makeup of Canada. This doesn't mean we shouldn't strive to understand where other people are coming from.

[kjckjc]

The thing about Texas, and for that matter many of the Western states, is that it was settled (by white people) by people who were not happy with wherever they were from.

Actually, so was my home state of MA. But instead of a covered wagon, they took a boat. :D

[Darth Sensitive]

even though a great green hill speckled all over with bluebonnets is a sight to make the heart ache.

:( Awww. I miss home :( Need to find an excuse to head south come bluebonnet season.

And I'm from just outside of Dallas, proud to be Texan, and think those people were putting it on a bit, but also were a bit out there.

Who wouldn't be proud of a state that has 4 seasons (Summer, Football, chilly and windy, and spring football), the best state flag out there, the Alamo, the Dallas Cowboys, the right to self divide into 5 smaller states (at one point in time anyway), bluebonnets, Austin City Limits and I'm sure there's something nice to say about Fort Worth and Houston, but I can't think of anything :D.

I'm going to school in Oklahoma, and it's nice, but it ain't nothing compared to Texas. Crossin the Red River just feels better.

[lawoot]

My favorite "texas" moment in film:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QltlctqfY4E

[Bridget Burke]

I was born in Dallas in 1940 and lived in Texas until 1964. I began grade school in 1946 and I remember a LOT of Texas is best indoctrination. I remember Texas history being taught as if nothing worthwhile ever took place there until the first White people came along. I remember a place where racism was commonplace and I remember a pervasive air of potential violence. I remember a place where conformance to local standards was not only expected but required. I remember a place where lip-service to religion was common while actions were usually the direct opposite. I remember a place where questioning of local values was viewed with horror and I do remember a lot of people who exhibited the kind of behavior mentioned by the OP*. Basically, I remember a place populated by people who thought they were special just by virtue of being born there; the truth was that their forebears probably ran out of money in Texas and just stayed there instead of moving further west. I couldn't stand the place and leaving there was the best thing I ever did. (I know I've made noises off and on about returning to Texas, but I've since realized that I would be foolish to do so.)

On the other hand, Texas is a place where many/most of the residents are basically warm and friendly but they manage to elect some of the most moronic politicians who ever lived and who have passed more insane laws, I believe, than most states.

*I've often thought that people who are overly boastful of being Texans secretly know what a restrictive place it is but lack the will or means to leave.

A lot has changed here since 1964. Speaking of moronic politicians--you now live in Florida?

[WordMan]

Texas pride comes through. As a native Californian, I can see where we have our own cockiness, but it seems more in Texas.

While some folks have mentioned football and the Cowboys in particular, I am surprised that no one has focused on that. The Cowboys since Jerry Jones took over have been a big media circus and now they are a joke - and since Texas places a lot of weight on football, I wonder if that contributes to the national POV on Texas Pride. They did great in the first-gen Jones era with The Triplets (Aikman, Smith, Irvin) even though Irvin was a rock-head. But now they just come across as completely into themselves and trying to get attention but without much substance to back them up.

Frankly, between that and the way that Bushie has come across - again, like the Cowboys lately, all hat and no cattle - I can see where Texas pride, when it does manifest on a national scale, has been getting slammed a bit. Oh, and add to that the "Jessica Simpson as a Dallas Blonde" part of it, too (she was featured as the ultimate Dallas Blonde in a Texas magazine while I was staying there a few months ago...) - again, not the best representative for having substance to go with the style...

So I have always noticed Texas Pride, it was fun when the 49'ers and Cowboys were both high-quality rivals, but right now it seems like Texas Pride isn't at that place right now in the national spotlight...

[RickJay]

I take it that you resided in southern Ontario.

Many folks in north-western Ontario are serious about either becoming a separate province, or signing on with Manitoba.
All nine of them. See ya later! ;)

In seriousness, though, in southern Ontario, it is certainly true that people don't really think of themselves as Ontarians; they think of themselves as Canadians. Some parts of the media try to whip up Ontarian, anti-Canadian sentiment, and fail. There's a strong Toronto identity in Toronto, and a strong not-from-Toronto identity outside it.

Some places just don't have much of a regional identity, and identify themselves more with country or city. Residents of New York City don't tend to identify with their state; they're Americans, and New Yorkers with reference to the city. Provincial identity is certainly extremely strong in Quebec, strong in Alberta or Newfoundland, weak in Ontario. State identity is much stronger in Texas than in California. Different strokes, right?

[lieu]

Qadgop, I know people like what you describe do exist because I've heard others make mention of them too but honestly, in my 30 something years of living in Texas, I've never come across such boneheadedness in person. Yes, most if not all of us have a lot of pride in the state and I think rightfully so. There's a lot of friendly, industrious, hard-workin' and hard livin' folks here and, with many, making their aquaintance is quite enjoyable. There's always going to be some asshole though that derives his worth and self respect through some completely disarticulated rationale.

BTW, did the hotel recs in San Antonio work out for you and did you get to see some of the natural wonders in that part of the state? I certainly hope that overall your stay was a very pleasant one.

[lobotomyboy63]

While some folks have mentioned football and the Cowboys in particular, I am surprised that no one has focused on that. The Cowboys since Jerry Jones took over have been a big media circus and now they are a joke - and since Texas places a lot of weight on football, I wonder if that contributes to the national POV on Texas Pride. They did great in the first-gen Jones era with The Triplets (Aikman, Smith, Irvin) even though Irvin was a rock-head. But now they just come across as completely into themselves and trying to get attention but without much substance to back them up.



When I moved to DFW, I turned on the TV one Saturday morning. There was a football highlights show and I was half-watching it while on the phone. Ah, there's Texas Stadium, home of the belurved Boys. 50 yard field goal.

Um. Wait. I don't know these teams. This is...Saturday morning...? Not pro. College? No.... High school. Some high school teams play at Texas Stadium? I don't know if that was in the middle geographically or if it was a big game, but sure enough.

The highlight reels are high in production values. They merit play on local TV stations on Saturday morning. I can fully believe "Friday Night Lights" is accurate for places like Permian in Odessa.

A woman I know was telling me about her boy (9) who loves baseball. She said she just couldn't afford it. The school expects the team to go to all sorts of camps if they really want to be on the team. Maybe they aren't required, but when all the other gung-ho parents put their kids through all that, his skill level and conditioning are bound to lag behind.

If that's how they feel about baseball, I can only imagine the demands they make for football. How else do you explain 50 yard field goals in high school?

[Darth Sensitive]

When I moved to DFW, I turned on the TV one Saturday morning. There was a football highlights show and I was half-watching it while on the phone. Ah, there's Texas Stadium, home of the belurved Boys. 50 yard field goal.

Um. Wait. I don't know these teams. This is...Saturday morning...? Not pro. College? No.... High school. Some high school teams play at Texas Stadium? I don't know if that was in the middle geographically or if it was a big game, but sure enough.

The highlight reels are high in production values. They merit play on local TV stations on Saturday morning. I can fully believe "Friday Night Lights" is accurate for places like Permian in Odessa.

A woman I know was telling me about her boy (9) who loves baseball. She said she just couldn't afford it. The school expects the team to go to all sorts of camps if they really want to be on the team. Maybe they aren't required, but when all the other gung-ho parents put their kids through all that, his skill level and conditioning are bound to lag behind.

If that's how they feel about baseball, I can only imagine the demands they make for football. How else do you explain 50 yard field goals in high school?

Most likely the playoffs. They a set of games in the opening week generally (Tom Landry Classic), then generally rent it out for playoff games in November / December. My school had a few out there and it's pretty sweet (except for a couple of blown calls :mad: that kept us out of State). Last year, they sold out the stadium for a second round playoff matchup between the two reigning champs.

And to hit 50 yard field goals, you get a soccer star, put him in pads, get some wind at his back, and have everything else work well :D

[UncleRojelio]

As a native Austinite, I'd rank myself as:

1) Austinite
2) Texan
3) American

Not to the point of secession mind you (although I did have a Secede (http://www.texassecede.com/faq.asp) bumper sticker on my car in high school (speaking of bumper stickers, those "I wasn't born in Texas but I got here as fast as I could" ones truely piss me off. What makes you think we want you here?)). When traveling and asked where I'm from I just say Austin.

[Koxinga]

While some folks have mentioned football and the Cowboys in particular, I am surprised that no one has focused on that. The Cowboys since Jerry Jones took over have been a big media circus and now they are a joke - and since Texas places a lot of weight on football, I wonder if that contributes to the national POV on Texas Pride. They did great in the first-gen Jones era with The Triplets (Aikman, Smith, Irvin) even though Irvin was a rock-head. But now they just come across as completely into themselves and trying to get attention but without much substance to back them up . . . Oh, and add to that the "Jessica Simpson as a Dallas Blonde" part of it, too (she was featured as the ultimate Dallas Blonde in a Texas magazine while I was staying there a few months ago...) - again, not the best representative for having substance to go with the style...

You seem to be fixated with Dallas. Fuck Dallas. :p

Also, could we give that phrase "all hat and no cattle" a rest? I have never heard that coming from a Texan in all my life.

[lobotomyboy63]

Most likely the playoffs. They a set of games in the opening week generally (Tom Landry Classic), then generally rent it out for playoff games in November / December. My school had a few out there and it's pretty sweet (except for a couple of blown calls :mad: that kept us out of State). Last year, they sold out the stadium for a second round playoff matchup between the two reigning champs.

And to hit 50 yard field goals, you get a soccer star, put him in pads, get some wind at his back, and have everything else work well :D

Wow. Wikipedia says it holds 65,675. Sold out for a high school game....

[Clothahump]

...snip...

So what's the real deal? Is this a mindset held by many mainstream residents of the Lone Star State? Lynn Bodoni, other Texas dopers, can you provide some more informed opinions about this? I always knew Texans were 'different', but are they really that different?

Qadgop, I think you got your chain yanked a little.

I'm a native Texan. Born and raised in Houston, lived in several foreign countries (Australia, Singapore, Indonesia, the People's Republic of Austin, etc.) (BTW, that's a little local humor about Austin :D), and I have to admit I'm proud to be a Texan. Yeah, we're the biggest and the bestest and all that hoohah, but the truth is that we have a very unique history and we're proud of it.

Are we going to secede? Well, we tried that once and it didn't work, so I don't think it's a viable option. We sure do like to joke with folks about it, though. I've run some tall tales on people about the possibility of Texas secession and thoroughly enjoyed doing it.

Bottom line is that we're just folks like everyone else.

[WordMan]

You seem to be fixated with Dallas. Fuck Dallas. :p
Ah - there you go. Got it.

Also, could we give that phrase "all hat and no cattle" a rest? I have never heard that coming from a Texan in all my life.

Not lovin' my post, eh? The phrase seemed appropriate given the point I was trying to make, used by Texans themselves or not...

[Darth Sensitive]

Wow. Wikipedia says it holds 65,675. Sold out for a high school game....

Official attendance is lower, but the lots weren't open enough, and people were still entering at official stat time at the start of the second half. Those in the know say capacity. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCeT-QYF750

[pravnik]

I'm glad you mentioned Austin. It reminded me that this couple was dead against Austin and anything/anyone from there. They spoke of it as disdainfully as McCarthyites spoke of Moscow. And they made no bones about how the "wrong sort of people" lived there.Mystery solved. They were Aggies.

Seriously, they were either yanking your chain or nuts, or both. The only people who seriously talk about Texas' "right to secede" are those "Republic of Texas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Texas_(group))" loons.

[Ruken]

Mystery solved. They were Aggies.

Seriously, they were either yanking your chain or nuts, or both. The only people who seriously talk about Texas' "right to secede" are those "Republic of Texas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Texas_(group))" loons.Aggies could warrant a few threads on their own. Interesting folks, some of them.

[Qadgop the Mercotan]

Qadgop, I think you got your chain yanked a little.
As noted earlier, I don't think so. My BS meter is pretty good, given my profession.

They kept up this schtick for 5 days, while drunk, drunker, hung over, and less drunk.

They never mentioned college football, or colleges either. They took pride in that they had dragged themselves up from the primordial ooze and felt that others should be able to do the same. They lived near Odessa, and complained that every time they drilled for water, they hit oil. They did declare that, like all real Texans, they were libertarians.

[Acsenray]

It seems to me that pretty much all the "facts" offered to propose a factual difference between Texas and other states don't hold up to close examination. The issue seems to be that Texas pride is not based on any factual uniqueness, but rather a societal or cultural attitude that is applied to such "facts."

[pravnik]

They kept up this schtick for 5 days, while drunk, drunker, hung over, and less drunk.

They never mentioned college football, or colleges either. They took pride in that they had dragged themselves up from the primordial ooze and felt that others should be able to do the same. They lived near Odessa, and complained that every time they drilled for water, they hit oil. They did declare that, like all real Texans, they were libertarians.Clearly, they were delusional and insane from the rigors of life near Odessa. The behavior you describe are classic manifestations of the illness we refer to as Texolalia, the inability to shut up about Texas, even around other Texans. In an emergency, symptoms may be temporarily allieviated with the oral administration of 300 cc's of Lone Star beer and a redirection of the conversation towards the relative strengths and weaknesses of Jimmy Johnson and Tom Landry.

[LouisB]

A lot has changed here since 1964. Speaking of moronic politicians--you now live in Florida?When I am engaged in Texas bashing, I try to always be specific regarding the time period in which my opinions were formed. When you say that things have changed in Texas since 1964, am I to assume they have changed for the better? If so, that lends credence to my opinions of the place since those opinions date back to the time in question. In any case, I have so many bad memories of the place that I will not be returning there.

I live in Florida for reasons that have nothing to do with politics or politicians.

[Dr. Woo]

There is a pledge of allegiance to Texas, which is recited sometimes. I'm not sure where though. I never heard it when I was in El Paso, but EP isn't a very Texasey place. Anyone know how common it is to recite the TX PoA? Compared to other states, assuming they even have one? I found it odd that it even existed, but maybe they're common.
I came in here to mention that. My sister, who lives in Austin, had to get pissy with the school to excuse my nephews from reciting the pledge of allegiance* to Texas. Apparently it's not all that hard to get the kids excused, but I may be underestimating my sister's capacity for pissy.

I was wondering the same thing: do other states even have pledges of allegiance?

* Sisty says her childrens' allegiance are to their family and their country, period.

[Psiharis]

I was born in California and didn't come to Texas until I was 4 (and then left again when I was 10), but I still feel like it's home. It's also the one place I've spent the most consecutive years in my life, but that's another story...

Yes, there is indeed a pledge of allegiance to the Texas flag, and I remember it to this day. I grew up reciting it every morning in school in an affluent Houston suburb. It was recited before the US Pledge of Allegiance. I went through a phase where I decided I didn't like Texas very much and would silently mouth 'California' (a state I did not remember at all and grew to loathe when we moved back there), but it was never a big deal, just a tradition. Texas likes tradition.

There is Texas-shaped pasta (which makes the best tuna noodle casserole), the hotels have Texas-shaped waffle irons at their continental breakfasts, and I knew a lot of people who skipped caucusing during the primaries to go to the rodeo instead. This includes my liberal, gay hairdresser. :)

I've lived in a lot of places and Texas really is unique, but 'serious' secessionists are a rare breed. Having grown up around and later worked with oil field roughnecks, who are about as Texan as you can get without riding a horse to work, I think many of them agree that in theory Texas should have been allowed to secede -- but on the other hand, acknowledge the wisdom that the first thing to do when you find yerself at the bottom of a hole is to stop digging. A little recreational outrage at the way things went does not preclude the sheepish admission that it probably worked out for the best.

I think you would have an easier time finding crazy independence-obsessed Quebecois than Texans any day.

[Lynn Bodoni]

I knew a lot of people who skipped caucusing during the primaries to go to the rodeo instead. This includes my liberal, gay hairdresser. Oh, there's quite a gay cowboy subculture going on here. Some of the gays like cowboys, and some of the cowboys are gay. There's also (or at least, there was) a completely gay rodeo, from what I've read.

[Koxinga]

Oh, there's quite a gay cowboy subculture going on here. Some of the gays like cowboys, and some of the cowboys are gay. There's also (or at least, there was) a completely gay rodeo, from what I've read.

In my adolescent years, I would also have described most cowboys and rodeos as "completely gay".

[Yarster]

Having attended the University of Texas at Austin for business school and had the pleasure of living in Austin for two years...having lived in California the whole rest of my life...the state pride is very obvious.

In our marketing classes, I remember people joking that the three easiest ways to sell anything in the state was 1) throw a 'my' in front of it ('My HEB (market)' and 'My Wallmart' were huge) 2) put a state of Texas outline around your corporate logo and most important of all 3) imply that you are a bad Texan if you don't buy the company's products.

Strategies two and three above were used to heavily pitch Shiner Bock beer, which I've never seen anyone drinking outside of Texas (which I'm sure will now result in several people in Guam chiming in to tell me how that's ALL they drink):rolleyes:

[rbroome]

The Mrs. and I were recently staying at a resort where we encountered another couple, who within minutes of meeting anyone new, quickly made sure that it was known that they were Texans (an odd behavior I'd previously only noted in Harvard grads).

While that was somewhat odd, what struck the two of us, and most of the other folks we talked to later about it, was their assertion that they were Texans first, and Americans second.

I can't explain why-I have been in Texas before and it looks just like any other flat/dry/hot spot on the globe I have been-but I know a very accomplished Air Force pilot who proudly tells people that he made sure there was a pan of genuine Texas dirt underneath the bed of his wife when she gave birth so that his children could be born in Texas. Texas certainly does have a certain mystique. A lot like living in California.
So, no accounting for tastes.

[Raguleader]

Ever try to compare colleges with an Aggie?

Why would you want to? All of the other colleges are dumb.:D

Austin is the place all Texans seem to want to live because UT/A makes it happenin', Bohemian, all that.

Minor nitpick: UTA is located just outside of Dallas (University of Texas Arlington, AKA "University of Texas... ALMOST!"). The Austin campus is just plain old UT (or, if you're an Aggie, it is "t.u.")

We did the Pledge to the Texas Flag when I was in high school. I would just quietly stand there without saying anything. Was never given any problems because of it. Basically my stance was that you shouldn't pledge allegiance to a state, only to a country.

Those guys who make a serious argument for Texan independence are about as sharp as a sack of wet mice.

[foolsguinea]

Yes, Texan is an ethnicity, & a proud one, to a great degree. There are (a very few) Texans who self-identify as such 'round here, in Missouri. Not everyone who lives in Texas feels that way, of course.

I've not encountered that kind of feeling about Missouri. We sort of make jokes about coming from or living in "Misery," but not much more than that, in my experience. That said, I live by the border of the state, there may be different feelings in Columbia or somewhere.

Actually, I don't remember people in Dallas being "Texan more than American," either, & it's near the border. Something to that?

[foolsguinea]

This attitude isn't at all unique to Texas. Plenty of folks in other states think that Texas should secede, too.Hee!Seriously, though, Montanans have a touch of this attitude, too (you're not a real Montanan unless your great-grandfather was born and buried here), but they (I don't say "we" because by that standard, I'm not a "real Montanan") don't seem to be as rigid about it. A Montanan will still regard someone from Wyoming or Idaho or Alaska, or even some place like Vermont, as "one of us". It's just "Californians" who are regarded as a problem (though admittedly, "Californians" encompasses a lot more than just California).Oh, twelve years ago, I was visiting family in Wyoming, & noticed Wyomingites who spoke scornfully of "Greenies," referring to Coloradans (who apparently had green license plates). A sort of irritation at the people from larger cities who'd come in on vacation.

Then again, I get called "city kid" by people from the rural counties around my town, & then feel like a hick when I go to--well, anywhere larger than Springfield....

[Ruken]

Hee!Oh, twelve years ago, I was visiting family in Wyoming, & noticed Wyomingites who spoke scornfully of "Greenies," referring to Coloradans (who apparently had green license plates). A sort of irritation at the people from larger cities who'd come in on vacation.In El Paso we used to curse those damned "yellow plates", that is, cars with plates from NM or "Fronteriza Chihuahua"*. "What do they give you if you fail the driving exam in NM? A yellow plate!" (Yes we were SO CLEVER :rolleyes: :D) We shouldn't have complained; these folks were coming over to spend money! Good for the economy. It's not like El Paso drivers were amazing. They too drove slow in their favorite lane, just not as slow.

*"Frunchies". Just for border regions only. This is different from a plate in the interior of Chihuahua. I'm not sure exactly how it works.

[Raguleader]

Actually, I don't remember people in Dallas being "Texan more than American," either, & it's near the border. Something to that?

Dallas is something like two hours from the border. While that's not much of a drive for us Texans, I think back East that effectivel takes you through all of New England :D

When I went to college, a joke in my dorm was that Dallas was a "Bastion of Yankee Northernness" or something along those lines. The RA on my floor was from Dallas, and after losing some sort of bet, was made to shave the chin of his beard off and go to class with an Antebellum 'stache and muttonchops combo. As fast as his beard grew, the effect lasted until around lunch that day. :rolleyes:

Dallas does seem to have a somewhat less "Texan" culture than other cities (notably nearby Fort Worth, nicknamed "Cow Town" for its overwhelming Texasosity at times). I've been told that Houston can have the most aggressive Texans, and Austin is where we keep most of the hippies and politicians. :p

[lizardling]

Dallas does seem to have a somewhat less "Texan" culture than other cities (notably nearby Fort Worth, nicknamed "Cow Town" for its overwhelming Texasosity at times). I've been told that Houston can have the most aggressive Texans, and Austin is where we keep most of the hippies and politicians. :p

This. I grew up in the Metroplex, and I can more than vouch for the "less Texan" feel of Dallas. :dubious: :D

Regarding Shiner Bock, don't forget Bluebell ice cream. *snif*

The subject of where I come from doesn't come up much, but when it does, I will say "I'm from Texas-but-didn't-vote-for-him". (hell, I still have a grudge dating from when Shrub got himself voted governor.)

[elmwood]

In El Paso we used to curse those damned "yellow plates", that is, cars with plates from NM or "Fronteriza Chihuahua"*. "What do they give you if you fail the driving exam in NM? A yellow plate!" (Yes we were SO CLEVER :rolleyes: :D) .

As they said in Albuquerque ... poor Las Cruces. So far from heaven, so close to El Paso. :D

[lobotomyboy63]

This. I grew up in the Metroplex, and I can more than vouch for the "less Texan" feel of Dallas. :dubious: :D

Ignorance, like a vampire, tends to disintegrate in sunlight. Your very use of the term "Metroplex" (and capitalized no less)...well, little acorn, I think that proves the point. Get away from the rural areas.

The subject of where I come from doesn't come up much, but when it does, I will say "I'm from Texas-but-didn't-vote-for-him". (hell, I still have a grudge dating from when Shrub got himself voted governor.)

The bumper sticker, of course, is "I wasn't born in Texas but I got here as fast as I could." We need a retort. "I wasn't born in Texas, but the jobs are here. What are you going to do?"

Seriously, if you dopers had to move to DFW, you'd be fine. Podunk, TX OTOH, maybe not.

[msmith537]

One of my college buddies married a woman from Texas. So the whole lot of us flew out there for the weding. The couple seated next to us kept going on about Austin this and Austin that.

"Oh I declare Austin is my favorite city ever! I don't think there is any city on God's green Earth anything like Austin! It's the greatest city ever! Austin! Austin! Austin! Where did you say ya'll from?"

"New York City"


...and hilarity ensues.

[Clothahump]

As noted earlier, I don't think so. My BS meter is pretty good, given my profession.

They kept up this schtick for 5 days, while drunk, drunker, hung over, and less drunk.

They never mentioned college football, or colleges either. They took pride in that they had dragged themselves up from the primordial ooze and felt that others should be able to do the same. They lived near Odessa, and complained that every time they drilled for water, they hit oil. They did declare that, like all real Texans, they were libertarians.

Well, amigo, all I can say is that there are assholes in every group. If they genuinely were from Texas and acted that way, then I apologize on behalf of the rest of us.

[Koxinga]

One of my college buddies married a woman from Texas. So the whole lot of us flew out there for the weding. The couple seated next to us kept going on about Austin this and Austin that.

"Oh I declare Austin is my favorite city ever! I don't think there is any city on God's green Earth anything like Austin! It's the greatest city ever! Austin! Austin! Austin! Where did you say ya'll from?"

"New York City"


...and hilarity ensues.

I don't get it. :confused:

[msmith537]

I don't get it. :confused:

This is how New Yorkers see the rest of the US. (http://strangemaps.wordpress.com/2007/02/07/72-the-world-as-seen-from-new-yorks-9th-avenue/)

Basically you have a room full of blow-hard Texans and smart-ass New Yorkers all thinking they are from the greatest place on Earth.

[lizardling]

Ignorance, like a vampire, tends to disintegrate in sunlight. Your very use of the term "Metroplex" (and capitalized no less)...well, little acorn, I think that proves the point. Get away from the rural areas.

I see I should probably have used the tongue-in-cheek smiley there. Ah well, lesson learned.

And I resemble your implication of a vegetative lineage; I'm a proud member of Squamata Lacertilia, I'll have you know. *snif*

[InLucemEdita]

I was north of Dallas for 5 very long years 2002 - 2007.

I taught undergrads and grads...but in the undergrad courses the subject of Texas secession came up several times. I guffawed the first time I heard it thinking the student was pulling my chain. The dead-pan looks from the entire student body told me I was wrong.

They swear they have the right to secede.
And they are serious about it.

The attitude is that they are not seriously angling for it at the moment, mind you, but don't fuck with them too much or they'll just go ahead and do it.

What the Texans in this thread don't realize is that even if you don't seriously think you're going to do it...joking about it is fucking bizarre. NOBODY else jokes about seceding from the Union. It is NOT funny. It's about as funny as joking about killing your grandma. Yuk, yuk...come on I'm just kidding...you don't really think I'm actually going to kill the old bat do you?...but you know I read that it would actually be legal if I did...yuk, yuk, yuk.

Personally I think Texas seceding would be about the best thing that could happen to the Union. The average IQ in the US would immediately rise about 8 points once those outliers were removed from the distribution. We could fuck with them militarily for a while, then turn them over to the Mexicans for a truly enjoyable Texas-sized ass-stomping.

[Tangent]

I was north of Dallas for 5 very long years 2002 - 2007.

Well, bless your heart.



And good riddance.

[InLucemEdita]

Well, bless your heart.

Do you know how tired that one is...probably not...still think it's funny don't cha?

So clever...

[Tangent]

Here's another:

Don't get your panties in a wad.

[InLucemEdita]

Here's another:

Don't get your panties in a wad.

Well...I certainly can't compete with that. You win.
You've bested me. Congratulations.

[Koxinga]

I was north of Dallas for 5 very long years 2002 - 2007.

[paraphrased: whine whine whine, boo hoo hoo]

I believe you're from Virginia, aren't you? Dude, are you for real?

ETA, not that there's anything wrong with being from Virginia, but boo hooing about a secessionist attitude while residing in the spearhead of the frakkin' Confederacy? Gotta be a joke, unless it's serious and one of those "lady doth protest too much" things . . .

[Tangent]

Well...I certainly can't compete with that. You win.
You've bested me. Congratulations.

It was unsurprisingly easy.

Seriously, as myself and many other Texans in this thread have pointed out, almost NOBODY in Texas takes that secessionist stuff seriously. The often misrepresented bit about Texas being admitted to the US with a provision allowing it to be split into five states somehow got twisted long ago into a "right to secede" myth that 7th grade coaches Texas history teachers loved to spread. Maybe--unfortunately--some people do believe it, but I've never known anyone to advocate it or to really spend much time at all thinking about it one way or the other. I don't believe your claim that an entire class full of college students had an attitude about it. Maybe they didn't like their instructor and they were giving him shit?

Trust me, you are taking it far more seriously than any Texan I've ever known. And equating a stupid joke about our state seceding (which basically amounts to the tourism tagline "It's like a whole other country" or to put it more simply, "We're different than y'all!") to someone joking about killing their grandmother? What the fuck? Those two things are not even remotely alike.

And you think getting rid of Texas would be good for the US? That's idiotic. I imagine if you could rank the "importance" of the states to the well-being of the nation as a whole, from an economic standpoint at the least, Texas would be among the top few.

Hey, I don't always look at Texas through rose-colored glasses. There are a lot of things about the place that I wish I could snap my fingers and change. But Texas bashing is such a tired and misplaced form of aggression that I felt the need to respond.

[msmith537]

I heard Texas once had the ability to split itself into five separate states. That's pretty fucking cool living in a state that can break apart and attack you like Voltron!

[Czarcasm]

Moving penis-size contest from IMHO to Great Debates.

[Captain Carrot]

I believe you're from Virginia, aren't you? Dude, are you for real?

ETA, not that there's anything wrong with being from Virginia, but boo hooing about a secessionist attitude while residing in the spearhead of the frakkin' Confederacy? Gotta be a joke, unless it's serious and one of those "lady doth protest too much" things . . .

Unless it's Northern Virginia, which is basically a completely different state.

[Frylock]

Snopes says that's a myth (http://www.snopes.com/history/american/texasflag.asp).

Holy crap! In my experience, this myth is "common knowledge" here in Texas!

Lately I've pulled the old "Actually, according to the Internet..." on my Mother in Law. I've been trying to refrain since I'm sure it got annoying, but this... this is big!

And boy will it piss her off. ;)

-FrL-

[BrainGlutton]

:mad: Texas wants to secede?! By Og, we'll . . . we'll . . .

Hmmmmmm . . .

(Psssst! Do you guys think you could talk Oklahoma into going with you?)

[Clothahump]

I heard Texas once had the ability to split itself into five separate states. That's pretty fucking cool living in a state that can break apart and attack you like Voltron!

We used to, but there was really no chance of it ever happening. As Mr. Snopes points out:

Although the provisions of the Texas Annexation document allowing for the creation of four additional states are popularly regarded as a unique curiosity today, they were largely superfluous. Article IV, Section 3 of the U.S. Constitution already specifically provided for the formation of new states through the junction or division of existing states:

New states may be admitted by the Congress into this union; but no new states shall be formed or erected within the jurisdiction of any other state; nor any state be formed by the junction of two or more states, or parts of states, without the consent of the legislatures of the states concerned as well as of the Congress.


And Mr. Snopes also lays to rest the concept of Texas having the right to secede:

Another Texas-related legend holds that the Texans negotiated an annexation treaty which reserved to them the right to secede from the Union without the consent of the U.S. Congress, but the terms of Texas' annexation contain no such provision.

http://www.snopes.com/history/american/texas.asp


However, suppose that Texas could secede. What would happen if we did?


1. NASA is just south of Houston, Texas . We will control the space industry.

2. We refine over 85% of the gasoline in the United States .

3. Defense Industry–we have over 65% of it. The term “Don’t mess
with Texas ,” will take on a whole new meaning.

4. Oil - we can supply all the oil that the Republic of Texas will
need for the next 300 years. Yankee states? Sorry about that.

5. Natural Gas - again we have all we need and it’s too bad about
those Northern States. John Kerry will have to figure out a way to
keep them warm….

6. Computer Industry - we currently lead the nation in producing
computer chips and communications–small companies like Texas
Instruments, Dell Computer, EDS, Raytheon, National Semiconductor,
Motorola, Intel, AMD, Atmel, Applied Materials, Ball Miconductor,
Dallas Semiconductor, Delphi , Nortel, Alcatel, etc, etc. The list
goes on and on.

7. Medical Care - We have the largest research centers for cancer
research, the best burn centers and the top trauma units in the world,
as well as other large health centers. Dallas has some of the best
hospitals in the United States .

8. We have enough colleges to keep us going: University of Texas ,
Texas A&M, Texas Tech, Rice, SMU, University of Houston , Baylor, UNT
( University of North Texas ), Texas Women’s University, etc. Ivy
grows better in the South anyway.

9. We have a ready supply of workers. We could just open the border
when we need some more.

10. We have essential control of the paper industry, plastics, insurance, etc.

11. In case of a foreign invasion, we have the Texas National Guard
and the Texas Air National Guard. We don’t have an Army, but since
everybody down here has at least six rifles and a pile of ammo, we can
raise an Army in 24 hours if we need one. If the situation really
gets bad, we can always call the Department of Public Safety and ask
them to send over Chuck Norris and a couple of Texas Rangers.

12. We are totally self-sufficient in beef, poultry, hogs, and several
types of grain, fruit and vegetables, and let’s not forget seafood
from the Gulf. Also, everybody down here knows how to cook them so
that they taste good. Don’t need any food.

This just names a few of the items that will keep the Republic of
Texas in good shape. There isn’t a thing out there that we need and
don’t have.

Now to the rest of the United States:

Since you won’t have the refineries to get gas for your cars, only the
President will be able to drive around in his big 9 mpg SUV.
The rest of the United States will have to walk or ride bikes.

You won’t have any TV as the Space Center in Houston will cut off
satellite communications.

You won’t have any natural gas to heat your homes, but since Algore
has predicted global warming, you will not need the gas as long as you
survive the 2000 years it will take to get enough heat from Global
Warming.


:D:D

[Ensign Edison]

I liked my visit there, but after reading this thread, I never, ever, ever want to see the word Texas again. Beyond losing all meaning, the word has mutated into some kind of Lovecraftian god of tentacles and strange jagged teeth in my mind*. Which isn't fair, because it's a nice place.

*And the word 'secede' is rapidly becoming its snickering, ratty little sidekick.

[InLucemEdita]

I believe you're from Virginia, aren't you? Dude, are you for real?

ETA, not that there's anything wrong with being from Virginia, but boo hooing about a secessionist attitude while residing in the spearhead of the frakkin' Confederacy? Gotta be a joke, unless it's serious and one of those "lady doth protest too much" things . . .

See that's just it...you'd expect to hear talk of secession this close to Richmond if you're going to hear it anywhere...but never...not once has it ever come up. Nor has anyone in Wisconsin, Illinois, North Carolina, Maryland, California, or Massachusetts ever mentioned the topic while I lived in those states.

In contrast, it is pervasive enough in Texas that nearly everyone posting in this thread has heard of it in one form or another, and it is pervasive enough that Snopes has to debunk it. The people in the OP were not just crazy fringe people. The belief in the legal right of Texas to secede is WIDELY held among Texans. The belief that they are actually going to do it sometime soon...not so much.

And I wouldn't say I'm from Virginia, but I live here now, and like it quite a lot.

As an aside, when I was moving from Texas to Virginia, three different Texans asked me why I would want to move to The North. That was topped only by the Texan who responded, "Virginia, huh? Well, it might be a nice place to visit, but I'd never want to live in New England."

[Acsenray]

I believe you're from Virginia, aren't you? Dude, are you for real?

ETA, not that there's anything wrong with being from Virginia, but boo hooing about a secessionist attitude while residing in the spearhead of the frakkin' Confederacy? Gotta be a joke, unless it's serious and one of those "lady doth protest too much" things . . .

Virginia has gotten over it. I don't know a single Virginian who waxes nostalgic about secession or the Confederacy.

[sqweels]

John Kerry will have to figure out a way to
keep them warm….

’t have any natural gas to heat your homes, but since Algore
has predicted global warming...

'S funny, I don't remember John Kerry or Al Gore joking about how they want Texas to secede or otherwise sniping at Texas.

[foolsguinea]

(Psssst! Do you guys think you could talk Oklahoma into going with you?)I pre-emptively ask for asylum from a secessionist TX/OK. I was born in Tulsa, but consider myself a Missourian.

[foolsguinea]

However, suppose that Texas could secede. What would happen if we did?

1. NASA is just south of Houston, Texas . We will control the space industry.

2. We refine over 85% of the gasoline in the United States .

3. Defense Industry–we have over 65% of it. The term “Don’t mess
with Texas ,” will take on a whole new meaning.

4. Oil - we can supply all the oil that the Republic of Texas will
need for the next 300 years. Yankee states? Sorry about that.

5. Natural Gas - again we have all we need[...]

6. Computer Industry - we currently lead the nation in producing
computer chips and communications–small companies like Texas
Instruments, Dell Computer, EDS, Raytheon, National Semiconductor,
Motorola, Intel, AMD, Atmel, Applied Materials, Ball Miconductor,
Dallas Semiconductor, Delphi , Nortel, Alcatel, etc, etc. The list
goes on and on.

7. Medical Care - We have the largest research centers for cancer
research, the best burn centers and the top trauma units in the world,
as well as other large health centers. Dallas has some of the best
hospitals in the United States .

8. We have enough colleges to keep us going: University of Texas ,
Texas A&M, Texas Tech, Rice, SMU, University of Houston , Baylor, UNT
( University of North Texas ), Texas Women’s University, etc. Ivy
grows better in the South anyway.Rice is tiny. Will it expand?9. We have a ready supply of workers. We could just open the border
when we need some more.

10. We have essential control of the paper industry, plastics, insurance, etc.

11. In case of a foreign invasion, we have the Texas National Guard
and the Texas Air National Guard. We don’t have an Army, but [...]

12. We are totally self-sufficient in beef, poultry, hogs, and several
types of grain, fruit and vegetables[...] Don’t need any food.

[...]

You won’t have any TV as the Space Center in Houston will cut off
satellite communications.Yeah, like we couldn't just change where we base our space & defense agencies. :rolleyes:

Most of your list is assuming an unusually closed border for any state, let alone one with huge wilderness border & coastline.

[Koxinga]

Rice is tiny. Will it expand?

Of course it will (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puffed_rice).






come on, expect me to leave a straight line like that alone?

[Raguleader]

Rice is tiny. Will it expand?

Sure, just put it in some water.

[msmith537]

Holy crap! In my experience, this myth is "common knowledge" here in Texas!


In my experience a lot of things that are "common knowledge" in Texas are actually considered "pretty dumb" elsewhere in the country.

[Burton]

http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/BillLookup/History.aspx?LegSess=81R&Bill=HCR50

I'll be in Houston over the week end. If I see any secessionists I'll report back.

[Burton]

http://www.texassecede.com/faq.asp

[TV time]

I married into a family of Texans, so I am familiar with the theory of the Texas Centered Universe.

It is especially true since I am from Colorado which many Texans feel is a colony of Texas. (It often surprises Texans that we don't agree with this belief).

Everytime one of my in-laws goes on and on about the importance, brilliance, beauty, size, etc. of Texas, I just recall the old chestnut that goes, "If I owned Hell and Texas, I'd rent out Texas and live in Hell."

(OK, OK, that specifically refers to West Texas - but it is still part of Texas)

[pravnik]

http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/BillLookup/History.aspx?LegSess=81R&Bill=HCR50Looks like some "State Soveriegnty" legislation pushers; the weird "texassecede" site links to some Lew Rockwell and Thomas Di Lorenzo "up with the Tenth Amendment and State Sovereignty, down with Lincoln" websites as well. Very odd guys, but definitely not limited to Texas. Similar or identical bills have been introduced in at least nine or ten other states.

Washington (http://apps.leg.wa.gov/billinfo/summary.aspx?year=2009&bill=4009)
New Hampshire (http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/legislation/2009/HCR0006.html)
Arizona (http://www.azleg.gov/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/legtext/49leg/1r/bills/hcr2024p.htm)
Montana (http://data.opi.mt.gov/bills/2009/billhtml/HB0246.htm)
Michigan (http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(rlnjqf35ywosjfy1d1ktia45))/mileg.aspx?page=GetObject&objectname=2009-HCR-0004)
Missouri (http://www.house.mo.gov/content.aspx?info=/bills091/bills/HR212.HTM)
Oklahoma (http://axiomamuse.wordpress.com/2009/01/07/state-legislator-charles-key-wants-to-limit-federal-power/)
California (http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/93-94/bill/sen/sb_0001-0050/sjr_44_bill_940829_chaptered)
Georgia (http://www.legis.state.ga.us/legis/1995_96/leg/fulltext/sr308.htm)

Some State Sovereignty websites claim that Arkansas, Colorado, Idaho, Indiana, Alaska, Kansas, Alabama, Nevada, Maine and Pennsylvania all have legislators saying they're going to introduce the same bill.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

I lived in Fort Worth for a few years in the 1980's...never heard that secessionist vibe being expressed. Nor did I particularly like living there, either. Too crowded and too hot.

And too many wannabe cowboys.

[pravnik]

I lived in Fort Worth for a few years in the 1980's...never heard that secessionist vibe being expressed. Nor did I particularly like living there, either. Too crowded and too hot.Lucky you weren't in Houston. :)

[Raguleader]

Lucky you weren't in Houston. :)

Crowded, hot, and humid? :D

[pravnik]

Crowded, hot, and humid? :DAnd that's on a good day. :D I loved living in Houston, though. I might have been the only one who did.

[Raguleader]

And that's on a good day. :D I loved living in Houston, though. I might have been the only one who did.

I loved living near Houston myself. :D

[Burton]

Looks like some "State Soveriegnty" legislation pushers; the weird "texassecede" site links to some Lew Rockwell and Thomas Di Lorenzo "up with the Tenth Amendment and State Sovereignty, down with Lincoln" websites as well. Very odd guys, but definitely not limited to Texas. Similar or identical bills have been introduced in at least nine or ten other states.

Washington (http://apps.leg.wa.gov/billinfo/summary.aspx?year=2009&bill=4009)
New Hampshire (http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/legislation/2009/HCR0006.html)
Arizona (http://www.azleg.gov/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/legtext/49leg/1r/bills/hcr2024p.htm)
Montana (http://data.opi.mt.gov/bills/2009/billhtml/HB0246.htm)
Michigan (http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(rlnjqf35ywosjfy1d1ktia45))/mileg.aspx?page=GetObject&objectname=2009-HCR-0004)
Missouri (http://www.house.mo.gov/content.aspx?info=/bills091/bills/HR212.HTM)
Oklahoma (http://axiomamuse.wordpress.com/2009/01/07/state-legislator-charles-key-wants-to-limit-federal-power/)
California (http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/93-94/bill/sen/sb_0001-0050/sjr_44_bill_940829_chaptered)
Georgia (http://www.legis.state.ga.us/legis/1995_96/leg/fulltext/sr308.htm)

Some State Sovereignty websites claim that Arkansas, Colorado, Idaho, Indiana, Alaska, Kansas, Alabama, Nevada, Maine and Pennsylvania all have legislators saying they're going to introduce the same bill.

No doubt. I heard some woman caller on C-Span this morning call for revolution, she was from the South somewhere.

[pravnik]

No doubt. I heard some woman caller on C-Span this morning call for revolution, she was from the South somewhere.Appropriate Onion article: South Postpones Rising Again For Yet Another Year (http://www.theonion.com/content/node/28559)

[I Love Me, Vol. I]

Well....... I, for one, admire the dogged persistence of Texas patriots like the ones mentioned by the OP.

As they say down there:

If at first y'all don't secede, try, try again!*












* My own little brain came up with that allllll by myself but I'd be surprised if it hasn't been thought of before. It's probably on a bumper sticker somewhere.

[pravnik]

Hey now, no secession jokes. That's, like, worse than killing Hitler's grandma, or something.

[Raguleader]

I see the thread title, and I keep thinking:

Texans first, Americans second, women and children can fend for themselves! :D

[Bryan Ekers]

I think this Toutube link is appropiate: (Warning be prepared to piss your pants)

Real Men of Genius
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4PHV6NdCWE

As a Texan; I can say this commercial is pretty much spot on.

It's amusing, but the other 49 states are not all smaller than Texas, though I can understand why a Texan would have this particular blind spot.

[Jackmannii]

I lived in the Houston area for five years and never heard the Texas independence stuff taken seriously, even among my redneck neighbors. The few who really believed in the Republic of Texas stuff were mostly in jail on tax evasion charges.

Growing up in Staten Island, N.Y., there was serious sentiment for secession (Islanders even voted in favor of it some years after I left), but that was not a case of "Staten Island first, the U.S. second", but rather "Screw all you other NYC boroughs who get better service than we do".

[Dan Norder]

Is there any other state that even comes close to the attitude expressed in "It's hard to be humble when you're from Texas"?

(And that should really be "It's hard to spell humble when you're from Texas.")

[Jackmannii]

Is there any other state that even comes close to the attitude expressed in "It's hard to be humble when you're from Texas"?

(And that should really be "It's hard to spell humble when you're from Texas.")It's certainly possible to be a Humble Texan. (http://www.cityofhumble.com/)

[E-Sabbath]

Well, I know one _city_ that does. The City.

[kaylasdad99]

Well, I know one _city_ that does. The City.I presume that the antecedent to this post is this:Is there any other state that even comes close to the attitude expressed in "It's hard to be humble when you're from Texas"?So, are you talking about San Francisco? I've never noticed anything particularly arrogant about them. Well, barring the fact that they refer to themselves as The City.

[E-Sabbath]

San Francisco? The City?
No, no. THE CITY.
http://www.phables.com/archive/20060224.html