Grammar question: are / is

[SlickRoenick]

Helping my friend write personal statements for law school and this particular sentence is holding up the process:
I see a career in law as the ultimate opportunity for continuous learning. Besides all of the cases, regulations, and statutes there [are / is] an infinite number of books, seminars, databases, and journals discussing the law.

I think it should be "is" since the object is "number" with "of books" being the prepositional phrase. However, there is a list that follows which kind of throws off that idea of singular versus plural use of verbs.

Which would be more proper?

[fachverwirrt]

I think "is" is technically correct, but you might be better off with a re-write to avoid the question entirely. It's sort of an awkward sentence. It's also inaccurate, since there is, in fact, not an infinite number of books, seminars, databases, and journals discussing the law. Law is a pretty precise discipline, and I don't think making hyperbolic statements in one's personal statement is a very good start.

[SlickRoenick]

What about saying "...a nigh infinite..." instead? :D

[panache45]

I agree, even the fastest reader would be challenged by an infinite number of books, etc.

[Runs With Scissors]

Helping my friend write personal statements for law school and this particular sentence is holding up the process:


I think it should be "is" since the object is "number" with "of books" being the prepositional phrase. However, there is a list that follows which kind of throws off that idea of singular versus plural use of verbs.

Which would be more proper?

The subject is "there" so it's "is."

[Polycarp]

"A large number of enemy troops is shooting at us." Unless you're Pogo Possum, you'd never say that as a native speaker of English. Same thing applies here: "There [form of to be]...." constructions have the number of the verb governed by what comes next. And phrases such as "a large number" are structurally singular but plural in meaning, and will normally govern a plural verb.

The subject is "there" so it's "is."

"There" is an adverb, used idiomatically here. "Blue were her eyes, and red her lips..." is, like "There is/are..." constructions, an inversion where subject follows verb. "Blue" is not the subject, "eyes" is.

[BlakeTyner]

Subjects don't always have to come before the verb. A rewrite of the sentence illustrates that it was one of those inversions originally:

A number of books, seminars, databases, and journals discussing the law are there, [along with] all of the cases.

Edit: Beaten by Polycarp. Must...type...faster!

[Zoe]

I totally agree. The sentence should be rewritten. It is BS. A career in law is not particularly the ultimate opportunity for continuous learning. Any field can provide that. For this particular student perhaps it is an "intriguing" opportunity for continuous learning.

Technically "is" is correct, but awkward.

Your friend could just leave off the beginning of the sentence and work with the last part to make it better.

[Muffin]

"Is" is correct. While you're at it, put a comma after statutes. Better yet, rewrite the sentence, for it is awkward. Best yet, revise the content, for it sounds over-hyped and lacks depth. Think about what a law school would hope its graduates would do in their careers.

[Scarlett67]

Additionally, "There is/are" often flags a weak construction. In this case (considering sentence structure only, and not the merits of the concept), you could simply say, "Many books discuss . . ."

1. Use an active verb.
2. Get rid of extraneous words.
3. Tighten up the sentence.
4. Profit!

(Bit of a sore spot tonight . . . I'm editing a book written by an author who never uses one word where six will do. :rolleyes:)

[corkboard]

Leave off the 2nd sentence entirely. It's redundant, doesn't add anything of substance, and also, it's redundant.

[Rand Rover]

That whole quote is kinda :dubious:. Maybe try to re-word somehow or just scrap it. The second sentence in particular is weird--the writer is telling people at a law school that there are lots of books that discuss the law. They already know that. The sentence should instead say something about your friend (i.e., at the easiest level that "I like that" there are lots of books discussing the law, or something).

[Frylock]

I totally agree. The sentence should be rewritten. It is BS. A career in law is not particularly the ultimate opportunity for continuous learning. Any field can provide that. For this particular student perhaps it is an "intriguing" opportunity for continuous learning.
.

Moreover, the Law School doesn't care about your "continuous learning."

Also, "continuous learning" is reminiscent of "continued education" which I think connotes an aimless dallying. Not a good connotation to put into an essay like this.

-FrL-

[guizot]

I agree with the above feedback, but I'd just like to point out how useless it is when a professor or English teacher writes nothing other than the word "awkward" in the margin of a paper (or "vague"). This doesn't help in any way, and a developing writer who wrote the sentence in the first place isn't going to suddenly see how to improve the writing because of the word "awkward" or "vague" in the margin, however awkward or vague the writing actually is. These comments are usually just the refuge of a reader (usually a TA) who is not well-trained in teaching writing and is burdened with a lot of papers to read in a very short period of time, but feels obligated to justify a grade with at least some sort of criticism.

It's much more helpful (and this should be in the draft stage, when there is the opportunity to rewrite) to pose questions that guide the developing writer to rephrase the writing with the audience's (not just the reader's) thoughts in mind. As an example for the first sentence in the OP, I would pose something like this: "What exactly does 'ultimate' mean for you? How would you describe the opportunity to study law and its benefits more specifically with regard to your personal goals? With this in mind, change the following sentence so that you continue this line of thought, using 'I' as the subject."

[Sparky812]

The answer to your question is that "is" is proper since "infinite number" is singular.

To echo everyone else's concern, I would remove the second part of the question or rewrite the sentence, not only is it redundant, but it is false! There is definitely a vast amount of material available for continuous learning but it is still finite not infinite.

[Chefguy]

Basic rule of grammar: if you can't figure out the subject/verb agreement, the sentence needs to be rewritten.

[Exapno Mapcase]

Infinite number is obviously not singular. It is plural. As has been stated, no proper English speaker would use "is" in that sentence.

It's true that sentences can be rewritten to remove awkwardness. This one should. That's not an excuse to get the sentence wrong in any form it happens to reside in. Most sentences by most writers are awkward. They still need to be correct.

A number are. Unless you are using number literally, as in "a number is used in arithmetic to represent objects," any ordinary writer would be hard-pressed to find examples of number used in common English as a singular.

This is not a matter of style and so subject to opinion, as these questions usually are. "Is" is wrong. Flatly and unequivocally.

[pulykamell]

It's definitely "are" for the reasons above, and also because "is" just sounds so horribly wrong to my ears. Who talks like that? Anyhow, here's a source. (http://grammartips.homestead.com/number.html) It includes the following tip from Fowler:


When the word number itself is itself the subject it is a safe rule to treat it as singular when it has a definite article and as plural when it has an indefinite. The number of people present was large, but A large number of people were present. In Before the conclave begins in a fortnight's time a number of details has to be settled the singular is clearly wrong; it is the details that have to be settled, not the number; a number of details is a composite subject equivalent to numerous details.


The cite goes on to further say that this is not an instance of American vs. UK usage (as some collective noun constructions are), citing the Prentice Hall Handbook for Writers which contains the following: "The expression the number takes a singular verb, but a number takes a plural verb."

[BlakeTyner]

A number are. Unless you are using number literally, as in "a number is used in arithmetic to represent objects," any ordinary writer would be hard-pressed to find examples of number used in common English as a singular.

This is not a matter of style and so subject to opinion, as these questions usually are. "Is" is wrong. Flatly and unequivocally.


Quoted for truth.

"A number of soldiers are heading to Afghanistan."

Subjects do not present in a prepositional phrase, so "of soldiers" can be struck through. Number/are.

Vis-a-vis writing "awkward" in the margin:

I'm guilty of that, but I always try to suggest a better construction. The problem, as the poster notes, is that we have about 100 papers to grade several times through the course of the semester, and though I'd love to be able to write long comments, it just can't be done.

My solution is to make a note, and then when I pass the papers back, I call each student individually to my desk, show them their rubric/grade, and then walk through the paper with them, explaining my notes and answering any questions. They then have the ability to revise and resubmit for a higher grade. Not a perfect solution, but an acceptable compromise.

[Sparky812]

Infinite number is obviously not singular. It is plural. As has been stated, no proper English speaker would use "is" in that sentence.

It's true that sentences can be rewritten to remove awkwardness. This one should. That's not an excuse to get the sentence wrong in any form it happens to reside in. Most sentences by most writers are awkward. They still need to be correct.

A number are. Unless you are using number literally, as in "a number is used in arithmetic to represent objects," any ordinary writer would be hard-pressed to find examples of number used in common English as a singular.

This is not a matter of style and so subject to opinion, as these questions usually are. "Is" is wrong. Flatly and unequivocally.

Sorry but in this case any proper English speaker would find you flatly and equivocally wrong!
Although, it describes plurality, the word 'infinite' is singular, as is the word 'number'. The term "infinite number" is singular and describes one number, albeit of infinite proportions, but it is still only one number,
And that number is?

....wait for it ...get it?...aha...infinity.

Try substituting a finite number instead of an "infinite number" and you'll see.

Granted, the sentence is so badly written that I think the "IS vs. ARE" debate is the least of its problems.:)

[pulykamell]

Sorry but in this case any proper English speaker would find you flatly and equivocally wrong!

Disagree, but first, would you agree that "There are a number of books" is correct?

[Sparky812]

Disagree, but first, would you agree that "There are a number of books" is correct?

Yes, and that one number is infinite.

[pulykamell]

Yes, and that one number is infinite.

I would argue "an infinite number" is plural in the same way "a number" is. Idiomatically, "is" in the sentence in the OP sounds horribly wrong to my ears. Searching for "there are an infinite number" vs" "there is an infinite number" seems to confirm that "there are" is the more natural construction.

Note that Fowler gives "a large number of people were present" as an example. How is this any different than "an infinite number of people"? Infinity is not a number. Try "a limitless number of people." Would you agree this should take a plural verb?

[ClintPhoenix]

The whole paragraph should be deleted. Too boring. You need to keep the readers' attention. As Frylock said, the readers don't care about continuous learning. When I wrote my personal statement for law school, I tried to tell an interesting story about what led me to quit my career in IT and go to law school instead. Try to tell an engaging story.

A friend of mine recently told me that his whole personal statement hinged on the first sentence. His was, "My interest in law began with my involvement in the largest criminal investigation in Canadian history..." Attention grabbing - yes?

My feeling is that they want to know your emotions, your tragedies that you have overcome, your triumphs - basically what makes your character.

Maybe American schools are different (if that's where your friend is applying), but I doubt it.

Sorry for the hijack away from the is/are discussion.

[guizot]

My solution is to make a note, and then when I pass the papers back, I call each student individually to my desk, show them their rubric/grade, and then walk through the paper with them, explaining my notes and answering any questions. They then have the ability to revise and resubmit for a higher grade. Not a perfect solution, but an acceptable compromise.I would say that's a great solution, considering what usually happens. Writing--in any field of study--is a progressive, social act. It's not about one person, alone, conjuring up something on the spot, without any give and take.

[Sparky812]

I would argue "an infinite number" is plural in the same way "a number" is. Idiomatically, "is" in the sentence in the OP sounds horribly wrong to my ears. Searching for "there are an infinite number" vs" "there is an infinite number" seems to confirm that "there are" is the more natural construction.

Note that Fowler gives "a large number of people were present" as an example. How is this any different than "an infinite number of people"? Infinity is not a number. Try "a limitless number of people." Would you agree this should take a plural verb?

It depends on what that limitless number is.
FTR, I do agree with you in most cases, but not this one.:D

[pulykamell]

It depends on what that limitless number is.
FTR, I do agree with you in most cases, but not this one.:D

edit: I'm confused by your underlining of "is" in both your previous posts. There's no argument whatsoever over what the agreement there would be. That "number" clearly takes the singular.

It's fine, I just don't see the difference between "there are a large number of" and "there are an infinite number of." In the end, it's usage that really dictates which is right, but I think both usage and Fowler would have my back on this one.

Here's a rather better worded argument for "are" (http://www.reddit.com/r/math/comments/7g5jv/there_are_an_infinite_number_of_even_primes/c06lhqk) in this specific instance.

That said, I'm not quite willing to say "is" is unequivocally wrong. "Are" simply sounds better and more natural to me.

[Exapno Mapcase]

The technical meaning of infinite is "endless." Infinity is not a number.

So what? The real question is how infinite is used in standard, everyday English. There are two main usages. One is "extremely large," "huge bunches," or "lots and lots." The infinite reaches of outer space. The infinite possibilities of the human mind. The other is "indescribably large" or "boundless." The infinite richness of Bach's music. The first sense is a plural, the second sense is a singular. Both are metaphorical extensions of the technical term of infinite as endless. Both work as intensifiers. Intensifiers are often redundant and seldom literal. They serve to, well, intensity the condition to convey the importance that that an unmodified noun can't achieve by itself. Large. Very large. Extremely large. Humongously large. Infinitely large. A metric shitload.

Number has a similar connotation in everyday English. It is not used for a single object but a collection of them. An infinite number is not a literal term, but its connotation is easily understandable as "the exceptional size of the collection."

Words do not have intrinsic meanings. They have meanings in context. The context of this sentence is to emphasize the overwhelming quantity of objects dealing with the law. There are an infinite number of them.

Saying that infinite is singular and that number is singular and that infinite number is therefore singular is triply wrong. It ignores usage and connotation and context.

pulykamell cited Fowler earlier. Here's a similar statement from Partridge:
In "a large number of the garrison were prostrate with sickness" and "There are a large number of things that I desire to say," number is now felt not as a collective noun but as a component of a compound numeral. ... a large number having plural force, so that the verb is is the plural.

[gigi]

It's also inaccurate, since there is, in fact, not an infinite number of books, seminars, databases, and journals discussing the law.Yes, it should be:

There is literally an infinite number of books, seminars, databases, and journals discussing the law.


;)

[Sparky812]

Ok, so you are saying there are not an infinite number of books, seminars, databases, and journals discussing the law?
Doesn't sound right to me...



Saying that infinite is singular and that number is singular and that infinite number is therefore singular is triply wrong. It ignores usage and connotation and context.

Wrong... it is exactly in context with the intent oth the author.
"Infinite" is singular as it is an adjective modifying the singular noun "number".

In this context, "infinite" is being used to mean "extremely large" and number is being used as "a total sum". Both singular.

So by substitution...
There is an extremely large sum of books, seminars, databases, and journals discussing the law.
There is no doubt that this is the exact meaning the author intends.
Therefore, case closed, context, connotation, and all!

BTW, no proper English speaker would use "triply wrong" in that sentence. Flatly and unequivocally.

[Liberal]

Is. Number is singular.

[Frylock]

There are a number of things wrong with the reasoning that says "a number of" is singular.

Is there anything grammatically wrong with this post?

-FrL-

[Hellestal]

Is. Number is singular.Not necessarily relevant.There are many places where the rule of simple agreement is not followed.

<snip>

[W]ith collectives the override is optional, whereas in the number-transparent construction it is obligatory. As the examples show, this committee can take either a singular or a plural verb, whereas a number of spots requires a plural verb.I'm snipping a bit, of course. Those examples don't relate to a dummy "there" construction, so it's possible that speakers might have a touch more latitude to use a singular verb in that particular case. But There are an infinite number of books is certainly grammatically correct, and it would in fact be grammatically incorrect to say *A number of spots has appeared (an example taken straight from the book).

[Exapno Mapcase]

Wrong... it is exactly in context with the intent oth the author.
"Infinite" is singular as it is an adjective modifying the singular noun "number".

In this context, "infinite" is being used to mean "extremely large" and number is being used as "a total sum". Both singular.

So by substitution...
There is an extremely large sum of books, seminars, databases, and journals discussing the law.
There is no doubt that this is the exact meaning the author intends.
Therefore, case closed, context, connotation, and all!


It occurs to me that this thread is an interesting example of why "appeal to authority" is not the bugaboo that some people make it out to be. "Because Big Name X says so" may be insufficient in and of itself. "Because Big Name X says so, here is the reasoning, here are examples, and here are other Big Names who also say the same thing, and by the way there are no examples of Big Names saying the opposite," is as close to certitude as a non-factual answer can ever be. It would be impossible to function in life without using those criteria as guidelines.

In this thread we have several posters who've demonstrated their knowledge in a zillion older threads on language, along with cites to the two major usage authorities of the 20th century, all of whom say, using a variety of examples and explanations, that infinite number is a plural.

On the other side we have Sparky812, who asserts, without examples, explanations, or citations, that infinite number is a singular.

Nobody is going to come down out of the sky and proclaim that one side is right and the other is wrong. You have to decide for yourselves which authority is correct.

A microcosm of life itself. :)

[BlakeTyner]

Just wanted to pop back in and add that The Little Brown Compact Style Manual has this to say on page 218:

When the subject "number" is preceded by "the," it takes a singular verb:

"The number of mortgage applications is rising."

When the subject "number" is preceded by "a," it takes a plural verb:

"A number of people are applying for mortgages."

Emphasis added, of course.