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BlakeTyner
02-22-2009, 11:57 AM
I just attended my first Catholic mass yesterday (a funeral) and the reception lunch afterwards. Something I, and the other protestants in the room, are curious about is the recitation of the Lord's Prayer. There were several times it was said, and without fail the final line "for thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever and ever" was omitted.

Pretty simple question. Why?

I didn't feel like it was the appropriate occasion to ask while there.

Mahaloth
02-22-2009, 12:01 PM
The little tag at the end may not have been in the original text, so many translations and churches omit it.

Read Here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lord%27s_Prayer#.22For_thine_is_the_kingdom.2C_and_the_power.2C_and_the_glory.2C_for_ever_and_ev er._Amen_.22)

BlakeTyner
02-22-2009, 12:05 PM
Asked and answered in record time. Thanks, Mahaloth. Somehow I thought it would be more complicated than that.

Malacandra
02-22-2009, 01:49 PM
It's not just Roman Catholics. The Protestant Book of Common Prayer sometimes includes and sometimes omits "For thine is the kingdom... for ever and ever". My experience as a chorister is my cite. :)

RedRosesForMe
02-22-2009, 02:00 PM
I remember saying it at Mass, and after the last official Catholic line, the priest would say a few words about what, I don't remember, and then we'd finish with "the kingdom, the power, and the glory are yours for ever and ever. Amen"

Any other Catholics remember this?

Julius Henry
02-22-2009, 02:05 PM
I remember saying it at Mass, and after the last official Catholic line, the priest would say a few words about what, I don't remember, and then we'd finish with "the kingdom, the power, and the glory are yours for ever and ever. Amen"

Any other Catholics remember this?

That was true back in the '70s, the last time I attended mass. Can't say about now, though.

astorian
02-22-2009, 02:08 PM
Well, look at the original text of the Gospel of Luke, Chapter 11.

That's where the Lord's Prayer comes from. Do you see that last line?

This is one instance where the Catholics are the fundamentalists, sticking to Scripture, while the Protestants are adding their own text!

Cunctator
02-22-2009, 03:23 PM
I remember saying it at Mass, and after the last official Catholic line, the priest would say a few words about what, I don't remember, and then we'd finish with "the kingdom, the power, and the glory are yours for ever and ever. Amen"

Any other Catholics remember this?From the current order of mass:COMMUNION RITE

Lord's Prayer:

Priest: Let us pray with confidence to the Father in the words our Savior gave us.
or Jesus taught us to call God our Father, and so we have the courage to say:
or Let us ask our Father to forgive our sins and to bring us to forgive those who sin against us.
or Let us pray for the coming of the kingdom as Jesus taught us.

All: Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name;
thy kingdom come; thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread;
and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us;
and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.

Priest: Deliver us, Lord, from every evil, and grant us peace in our day. In your mercy keep us free from sin and protect us from all anxiety as we wait in joyful hope for the coming of our Savior, Jesus Christ.
All: For the kingdom, the power, and the glory are yours, now and forever.

JohnT
02-22-2009, 05:24 PM
I just attended my first Catholic mass yesterday (a funeral) and the reception lunch afterwards. Something I, and the other protestants in the room, are curious about is the recitation of the Lord's Prayer. There were several times it was said, and without fail the final line "for thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever and ever" was omitted.

Pretty simple question. Why?

I didn't feel like it was the appropriate occasion to ask while there.

Huh. Every Catholic Church I've gone to in my life has used that line. And I'm Catholic, and I've been to a fair number of churches. I went to a new one this morning and, yup, the line was there. And the Lord's Prayer is said only once during Mass (though you mentioned a reception as well, so I assume it was said there as well).

ETA: Oh, you're talking about a funeral. The order of Mass might be a bit different, with the prayer being said multiple times.

Regardless, the Priest has some say in how the mass is performed. Perhaps it's just not a line he cared for?

JRDelirious
02-22-2009, 05:33 PM
AFAIK, every Western Latin Mass uses the line in the mentioned format and it's not celebrant's choice. But then again, Funeral Masses do change the order of things; or else may be that you were at a Catholic Funeral Service, as opposed to the full-blown Mass.

But it is true that for most Catholics the version with the closing call-and-response doxology is heard only in formal Mass, and when it is used in "lay" prayer, for instance after each decade of a Rosary, it is NOT included.

Apparently at some point in between the codification of the Gospels and the Reformation, some confusion arose as to whether that line was part of the original scripture, or inserted afterwards by some scribe, so it sort of comes and goes in the various translations. It's sort of the way that "so help me God" comes to be expected to be part of official civil oaths.

JohnT
02-22-2009, 05:53 PM
AFAIK, every Western Latin Mass uses the line in the mentioned format and it's not celebrant's choice. But then again, Funeral Masses do change the order of things; or else may be that you were at a Catholic Funeral Service, as opposed to the full-blown Mass.

You're probably (like, 99.9% probably) right, but I do remember one memorable service where the Priest forgot, of all things, the Apostles Creed.

In his defense, he was very young and it could've been his first Mass.

Gbro
02-22-2009, 06:57 PM
I am a Catholic, however I am not a Roman Catholic.
I was brought up in the RCC, and therefore remember the lords prayer as you call it well.
I would wonder why this wasn't recited during service in the Christian(Catholic) Missionary Alliance Church.
Then at 0200hrs one night in the prayer room while praying and struggling with this prayer as you say,:smack::smack::smack: I get it, while reading the Gospel of Luke, Chapter 11, This is an "Outline of how to pray to the father" Not a prayer in itself.
Father in Heaven, Thank you for everything I have and all you have done for me and my family. We do everything to Glorify you Father, for you alone are the holy one. Thank you for the giving of your one and only son Jesus who died for us and is risen up to heaven and seated at your right hand.
Father, I am a sinner, and confess the transgressions I have done. I try to lead a life that is pleasing to you father, but we are sinners and fall so many times in thought word and deed.
Father please give me the courage to help lead others to you through your son, our savior. Lord as I interact with those on the internet, may I do so with love for them even when it is so hard to do that at times when such terrible words are used to rebuke you and your son. Father I know that it is the evil one who dominates these forums but that only makes the work here more important. Father please help we through your Holy Spirit as I pray for all the members and guests who come to this forum that can be so enjoyable and knowledgeable.
Please Lord protect us from the evil one as we recreate here, I pray this to you Father through your son our Savior Jesus, Amen
I put the quote tags around this sample of how I pray the prayers Jesus instructed us to pray in Luke chapter 11

Always for the Lord,
Greg

Yorikke
02-22-2009, 07:02 PM
I just attended my first Catholic mass yesterday (a funeral) and the reception lunch afterwards. Something I, and the other protestants in the room, are curious about is the recitation of the Lord's Prayer. There were several times it was said, and without fail the final line "for thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever and ever" was omitted.

Pretty simple question. Why?

I didn't feel like it was the appropriate occasion to ask while there.

Not having read any other posts but the OP...

I was brought up Catholic. Once, in about 5th grade, we had a non-catholic sudent. She was scheduled to read the lord's prayer. Before she read it, the nun teacher explained that the extra words at the end were just something extra that some non-catholics add.

In other words, I guess catholics don't say it. I know I never did...

Joe

BlakeTyner
02-22-2009, 07:03 PM
I'm not sure whether they called it a funeral service or a mass. It was fairly long...longer than any protestant funeral I've ever been to. They did several call-and-respond prayers (one I recall had the people refrain "Lord, hear our prayer.") They also did the holy water, incense, communion, etc.

What's interesting is that in the program, the Lord's prayer was arranged much as RedRosesForMe remembers, with the people reciting with the priest until the last part, where there were, IIRC, three or so sentences that the priest was supposed to say, then the people finished the "for thine is..." line.

However, it was omitted entirely. Got to "but deliver us from evil" and then on to the next part of the program.

Regardless, an interesting discussion. Thanks for the input everyone!

UDS
02-22-2009, 07:05 PM
The doxology is included in the Catholic mass, but as ponted out above it comes a short time after the Lord's prayer, with an intervening prayer by the priest, and it is not regarded as part of the Lord's Prayer; i.e. we don't think we're saying the Lord's Prayer with an interruption by the priest, we think we're finishing the Lord's Prayer, then the priest says a prayer, then we say a doxology. In the Catholic tradition the doxology is not used in conjunction with the Lord's prayer in any context outside mass. I was quite surprised, in my late teens, to discover that Protestants appended it directly to the Lord's Prayer, and regarded it as part of the Lord's Prayer.

Yorikke
02-22-2009, 07:05 PM
Huh. Every Catholic Church I've gone to in my life has used that line. And I'm Catholic, and I've been to a fair number of churches. I went to a new one this morning and, yup, the line was there. And the Lord's Prayer is said only once during Mass (though you mentioned a reception as well, so I assume it was said there as well).

ETA: Oh, you're talking about a funeral. The order of Mass might be a bit different, with the prayer being said multiple times.



Well, I dunno. In no mass ceremonies, nor in class recitations, did I ever hear the line in question. Catholic church/school in NJ, from birth (73) until about 1989, when I Atheized.

Joe

Bijou Drains
02-22-2009, 07:07 PM
I never heard it from 65 to around 82 as a Catholic. I was at a Catholic wedding in June and they left it off and my wife asked me why it was not part of the LP.

BlakeTyner
02-22-2009, 07:12 PM
I am a Catholic, however I am not a Roman Catholic.
I was brought up in the RCC, and therefore remember the lords prayer as you call it well.
I would wonder why this wasn't recited during service in the Christian(Catholic) Missionary Alliance Church.
Then at 0200hrs one night in the prayer room while praying and struggling with this prayer as you say,:smack::smack::smack: I get it, while reading the Gospel of Luke, Chapter 11, This is an "Outline of how to pray to the father" Not a prayer in itself.

I put the quote tags around this sample of how I pray the prayers Jesus instructed us to pray in Luke chapter 11

Always for the Lord,
Greg

Yes, it's certainly an example of HOW to pray, not in and of itself something for recitation. However, it's the only one I ever say word-for-word, not for empty by-rote prayer, but because it is arranged so beautifully. However, you're quite right that it's intended as an example of how to pray.

DanBlather
02-22-2009, 07:31 PM
This caused a problem for me when I was younger. In my public school they would start by leading us in reciting the Lord's prayer outloud. The teacher and most of the students were Roman Catholic and ommitted that phrase. I would continue and be looked at oddly. It was either that or not say it and think I was going to hell. That is why I am so anti-school prayer.

Chronos
02-22-2009, 08:01 PM
Quoth JohnT:You're probably (like, 99.9% probably) right, but I do remember one memorable service where the Priest forgot, of all things, the Apostles Creed.First of all, a nitpick, but you mean the Nicene Creed, not the Apostles' Creed. The Apostles' Creed is a shorter and less theologically-detailed version which is pretty much only recited as part of the Rosary (by Catholics, at least). But even at that, the Nicene Creed is sometimes replaced by the reiteration of the baptismal vows (especially if there's a baptism at that particular mass), and I've known at least one priest who, for reasons of his own, chooses to omit it (I've never gotten around to asking him why).

Northern Piper
02-22-2009, 08:36 PM
According to this summary of the Order of the Mass (http://catholic-resources.org/ChurchDocs/Mass.htm), the Apostles' Creed can be used in place of the Nicene Creed:Profession of Faith:

[On Sundays and solemnities, the Nicene Creed is normally recited by everyone after the homily. The Apostles' Creed may be used instead, esp. in celebrations of Masses with children]

Is that not correct?

tomndebb
02-22-2009, 08:45 PM
According to this summary of the Order of the Mass (http://catholic-resources.org/ChurchDocs/Mass.htm), the Apostles' Creed can be used in place of the Nicene Creed:

Is that not correct?It has been fine for just over five years. A general permission to substitute the Apostles' Creed in place of the Nicene Creed, particluarly during Lent and the Easter Season, was included in the 2003 Roman Missal. (Prior to that, it was not the prescribed prayer, but it wouldn't get you thrown out of the church.)

Cunctator
02-22-2009, 09:05 PM
The only problem with the Apostles' Creed, in my experience, is that people don't know it very well. They're much more familar with the Nicene Creed. So when the Apostles' Creed is substituted at mass, there's just a lot of embarrassed mumbling.

JohnT
02-22-2009, 11:25 PM
Yeah, it's the Nicene creed.

Regardless, it was obviously a mistake by the Priest. He was fumbling his way through the entire ceremony... the entire church felt sorry for the guy. Like I said, he was really young.

And the line "for the kingdom..." etc was said in the churches I went to when I was a kid (70s-80s). I remember my grandmother a number of times insisting that I didn't have to say it, that it was a form of "Protestant influence" and therefore not really Catholic.

...said the ex-baptist who eloped at the age of 14 to marry her 15 year-old boyfriend. Oh, well: nobody has faith like the converted. :D

installLSC
02-22-2009, 11:36 PM
I checked my old sheet of prayers from my CCD classes in the early 80s. The Lord's Prayer does omit the "for thine.." line. I wish I had the precise cite, but I remember reading sometime that the version of the prayer that we were taught in CCD classes was from the Baltimore Catchetism of 1884, which was written for grade age children. Although it's no longer the formal catchetism, that form has tended to stick around among Catholic education classes.

Zoe
02-23-2009, 01:34 AM
Most Protestant churches at the very end say "...and the glory forever. Amen."

The Anglican churches always seem to say "...and the glory forever and ever. Amen."

The Catholic churches that I've been to stop after "but deliver us from evil." But I've not attended Catholic churches regular except for a while in college long ago.

When "The Lord's Prayer" is sung, it just has the Protestant "forever" at the end." That's in English. I haven't looked at the Latin version.

crazyjoe
02-23-2009, 10:08 AM
Yeah, it's the Nicene creed.

Regardless, it was obviously a mistake by the Priest. He was fumbling his way through the entire ceremony... the entire church felt sorry for the guy. Like I said, he was really young.


I was surprised to find out at my MIL's funeral (where I was one of the lectors and also read the prayers of the faithful) that the creed, in any form, is not recited. I missed my cue, because typically the creed leads into the POF, and the priest had to give me a small hint to get up there and do my thing.

seosamh
02-23-2009, 01:28 PM
I know I am only 49 but I am generally very conservative when it comes to my Catholicism. My jaws remain clamped tight shut at the "kingdom/power/glory" response which Vatican 2 placed conveniently almost adjacent to the end of the Our Father.

Some may say it's petty, but that's how I am.

salinqmind
02-23-2009, 01:33 PM
What about "lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil"? Why would we have to beg Our Father Who Art in Heaven to "lead us not into temptation"? Isn't that the devil's job?

corkboard
02-23-2009, 01:37 PM
From the current order of mass: COMMUNION RITE

Lord's Prayer:

Priest: Let us pray with confidence to the Father in the words our Savior gave us.
or Jesus taught us to call God our Father, and so we have the courage to say:
or Let us ask our Father to forgive our sins and to bring us to forgive those who sin against us.
or Let us pray for the coming of the kingdom as Jesus taught us.

All: Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name;
thy kingdom come; thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread;
and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us;
and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.

Priest: Deliver us, Lord, from every evil, and grant us peace in our day. In your mercy keep us free from sin and protect us from all anxiety as we wait in joyful hope for the coming of our Savior, Jesus Christ.
All: For the kingdom, the power, and the glory are yours, now and forever.


This is how we do it at Mass every week, in just about every church I've ever attended. I'm Roman Catholic.

I'm puzzled why people would leave off the last part. Who cares how it got there, the sentiment is the point, no?

Kappa
02-23-2009, 01:42 PM
It's funny. My wife and I were watching the new Spike Lee movie, "Miracle at St.Anna's" yesterday. There was a scene where the priest was doing the Lord's Prayer with his congregation (just before they were blown away) and he skipped over those lines. I thought that it was strange because I'd never heard it like that before and now, today, I read this. Weird.

BlinkingDuck
02-23-2009, 01:51 PM
I have been an athiest for some time...but was brought up Catholic.

I can STILL remember it as:

Our Father, who art in heaven
Hallowed be thy name
The Kingdom, thy will be done
On Earth as it is in heaven
Give us this day, our daily bread
And forgive us our trespasses
As we forgive those that trespass against us and please
do not deliver us into temptation
but deliver us from evil.

Amen.

Now, I'm not sure how my memory is...and it is possible that is a 'child's version' (as is the act of contrition I remember ) but that is how I remember it.

JRDelirious
02-28-2009, 09:14 PM
What about "lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil"? Why would we have to beg Our Father Who Art in Heaven to "lead us not into temptation"? Isn't that the devil's job?

Artifact of translation. In other languages the phrase is rendered aas the equivalent of "do not let us fall into temptation", but when it was first translated "lead us not into" had a similar sense and made better poetry.


As other people have mentioned, even in formal Masses and services the doxology may or may not be part of the specific order of the day, but it's been around all along.

Polycarp
02-28-2009, 10:01 PM
Quoth JohnT:First of all, a nitpick, but you mean the Nicene Creed, not the Apostles' Creed. The Apostles' Creed is a shorter and less theologically-detailed version which is pretty much only recited as part of the Rosary (by Catholics, at least). But even at that, the Nicene Creed is sometimes replaced by the reiteration of the baptismal vows (especially if there's a baptism at that particular mass), and I've known at least one priest who, for reasons of his own, chooses to omit it (I've never gotten around to asking him why).

The Nicene Creed is not used where the Liturgy of the Word (the part of Mass preceding the Peace and Offertory) is replaced by the Liturgy for Baptism, because the Apostles' Creed is the traditional Baptismal creed.

I think that the Nicene Creed is optional at daily Low Mass and possibly specialized Masses as well. In Anglican Eucharists, which usually parallel Catholic Masses, the Nicene Creed is prescribed for Sundays and Major Feasts, optional at other times (except when the Apostles' Creed is a part of what substitutes for the Liturgy of the Word, as in Morning Prayer+Eucharist or Sundays when Baptism is performed).

The Easter Vigil, by the way, never uses the Nicene Creed, as it includes the annual renewal of vows made at Baptism (and therefore calls for the Apostles' Creed at the pertinent place).

jasonh300
03-01-2009, 01:26 PM
This is how we do it at Mass every week, in just about every church I've ever attended. I'm Roman Catholic.

I'm puzzled why people would leave off the last part. Who cares how it got there, the sentiment is the point, no?

When I was taught the "Our Father" in Catholic school, it ended in "deliver us from evil. Amen.". This is how it is said outside of a Mass, or while praying the Rosary.

I've never seen it left off during a Mass, even at a funeral. The "Deliver us Lord from every evil and grant us peace in our day...", said by the priest, isn't part of the Lord's Prayer, it's the next step in the mass, and then the "For the Kingdom, the power, etc." is the congregation's response to what the priest just said. This doesn't make it any more a part of the Lord's Prayer than the next step ("Lord Jesus Christ, you said to your apostles: I leave you peace, my peace I give you....").

Prayers vary from religion to religion and a non-Catholic might hear familiar bits during different parts of the Catholic Mass, the Lord's Prayer being the one thing that's almost identical through all the Christian religions.

There are minor changes made periodically that accommodate changes in the language. The "thine" and "thou" and "thy" have started to fade since it is archaic language (although they still teach "Our Father who art in heaven...", and "thy kingdom come...". At one point when I was in grade school, I think they must've tried replacing those words with "are" and "your" (it was in a religion textbook), but it didn't take, since most Catholic children know their prayers before they get into Kindergarten and they knew them the way their pre-Vatican-II parents taught them.

20+ years later, I taught my kids their prayers with the same archaic language.

Caveat lector
03-01-2009, 04:18 PM
20+ years later, I taught my kids their prayers with the same archaic language.

Well it just sounds better. Modern language is sometimes good, but it can kill the beauty of things if your not careful.

Cunctator
03-01-2009, 05:35 PM
The Easter Vigil, by the way, never uses the Nicene Creed, as it includes the annual renewal of vows made at Baptism (and therefore calls for the Apostles' Creed at the pertinent place).At the Easter Vigil the renewal of baptismal vows takes the place of the Creed entirely. Neither the Nicene Creed nor the Apostles' Creed is recited/sung.