Battlestar Galactica 4.19 - "Someone to Watch Over Me" (spoilers)

[Cervaise]

Spoiler policy: If you want to discuss a plot point from an upcoming episode, something you know is going to happen because it's been revealed in interviews or some other canon source, including the preview for the following week, put it in a spoiler box, and label the box so we can decide for ourselves whether or not it's something we want to know (example here (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10733845&postcount=5)). If you're simply speculating about what might happen in an upcoming episode, or if you're discussing something that has already aired in the episode (not including the preview), there's no need for a spoiler box.

This week's episode title: "Someone to Watch Over Me." Written by David Weddle & Bradley Thompson; directed by Michael Nankin. On this basis alone, the episode should be a good one: Weddle & Thompson are among the show's strongest scripters ("Act of Contrition," "The Hand of God," "Scar," "Downloaded," "Exodus 1 & 2," "Revelations," and many more), and several cast members have said that Nankin is their favorite director.

Regarding episode numbering, see comment here (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10701777&postcount=1). Note also that on the scifi/battlestar site, this is officially episode 419, despite what's found on other sites.

Sci-Fi's preview for the episode (http://video.scifi.com/player/?id=1030602). Also, from Canada's Space network, a not-so-different preview (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wA19wDFcyuM). Spoilers in both.

Links to previous threads:

4.13 - "Sometimes a Great Notion" (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=502093) (in which the discovery of the ruined Earth has serious repercussions for the fleet, and various people melt down and give up: Roslin burns her scriptures, Adama begs Tigh to kill him, and Dee shoots herself, among others; the Penultimate Four experience flashbacks while on Earth, and realize that they lived there two millennia ago; Starbuck finds her own corpse in the wreckage of her viper, and Leoben wigs out; and Ellen Tigh is revealed as the Final Cylon)

4.14 - "A Disquiet Follows My Soul" (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=503219) (in which Adama presses the fleet to tolerate the Cylons and adopt their technology, causing resentment to grow in the fleet, including among Colonial officers, chiefly Gaeta, who begins plotting resistance efforts with Zarek, while Baltar stokes negativity of his own; Tyrol discovers he's not the father of his child; and Roslin finally joins Adama in his bunk)

4.15 - "The Oath" (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=504321) (in which mutiny explodes, led by Zarek and Gaeta; all known Cylons on Galactica, except Tyrol, are confined in the brig; and Tyrol helps Roslin and Baltar flee the battlestar, with the assistance of Adama and Tigh, who have escaped their own captors, and who choose to stay behind to defend their ship)

4.16 - "Blood on the Scales" (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=505354) (in which the mutineers target Adama for execution; Roslin and Baltar escape to the basestar; Zarek has the Quorum liquidated; Adama, aided by Starbuck, Apollo, and Tyrol, retakes his ship, though Anders is badly injured; and Zarek and Gaeta eat a firing squad's bullets for their crimes)

4.17 - "No Exit" (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=506397) (in which Cavil secretly resurrects final-Cylon Ellen Tigh, and Anders unexpectedly begins recovering final-five memories due to his brain injury, both of which storylines result in a metric frakload of backstory (http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/episodes/episodes.php?seas=4&ep=417&act=1) being shoveled into the audience's lap; in other developments: Roslin recruits Lee to help her hold together the remaining tatters of government; Boomer spirits Ellen off Cavil's basestar; and Tyrol convinces Adm. Adama to allow a Cylon-tech fix to Galactica's overstressed frame)

4.18 - "Deadlock" (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=507409) (in which final cylon Ellen Tigh returns to the fleet, and has a jealous freakout over Saul-and-Caprica's pending pop tart, which drives her to cast the tiebreaking cylon vote in favor of a cylon withdrawal; Adama is losing control of his own ship due to an implied shortage of Marines; Baltar pushes his cult to stand up to local thugs, who are operating with impunity because of the aforementioned shortage, and who laugh at the cult's effort to resist; Adama stares at his ship's skeleton a lot, before deciding to arm Baltar's cult; Caprica Six suffers a miscarriage; and Anders might be waking up)

And thus do we barrel toward our finale.

[carnivorousplant]

I've been meaning to ask, how does it come to pass that the final five just happen to meet up on Galactica? That strikes me as somewhat toaster ex machina. :)

[simster]

I've been meaning to ask, how does it come to pass that the final five just happen to meet up on Galactica? That strikes me as somewhat toaster ex machina. :)

Tory nor Anders were not part of Galactica until after Galactica was the last remaining battlestar - when you've only got 30-40 ships left, and they all hang around Galactica - its not a stretch for them to "end up there" one way or another.

Tigh was, Ellen made it there due to Tigh. Tyrol was also part of the crew.

What's a stretch is that those particular implimentations managed to survive the attacks, etc, well enough to make it there.

I can suppose much like the time Anders _almost_ got shot by a Raider, that also explains his survival on Caprica - but clearly they want us to believe the second incident had meaning that the earlier ones didn't.

[Lightray]

Cavil no doubt knew where Tigh was, and could've easily arranged for Tyrol to end up the same place. It is certainly likely that Cavil got Ellen into the fleet, given the circumstances of her original appearance there. And Cavil came back to the fleet with Anders when Starbuck rescued them, so it seems likely he'd been keeping track of Anders on Caprica, as well.

Where Tory came from is a bit of a mystery, though, since we don't really know anything of her backstory on the Colonies.

edit: ninja Simster snuck in, but Ellen didn't make it into the fleet because of Tigh. They had separated before the miniseries, she was waiting for him to return (from Aerilon? to Aerilon?) to see if they could reconcile... then she mysteriously showed up in the fleet, having no memory of how she got there.

That was the point of the callback to her arrival, last episode, from when Adama had originally retrieved her after being discovered in the fleet, and brought her back to Galactica in a raptor. And then everyone thought she was a Cylon plant (both, in the show, and all over the frackin' internets).

My prediction for tonite's episode (spoilers ahead):
We get to learn what the frack is up with Kara. The "actor who can play piano" they were looking to hire will probably be her father.

That won't turn out to be Daniel.

It will probably turn out to be another of the "head beings" who are in the place "between life and death" -- same as the Head Leoben who invited her to explore "between life and death" way back in "Maelstrom".

I don't think her reincarnation was at all Cylon-related, but entirely arranged by the "head beings".
I'm interested to see if I'm right, though.

[simster]

Cavil no doubt knew where Tigh was, and could've easily arranged for Tyrol to end up the same place. It is certainly likely that Cavil got Ellen into the fleet, given the circumstances of her original appearance there. And Cavil came back to the fleet with Anders when Starbuck rescued them, so it seems likely he'd been keeping track of Anders on Caprica, as well.

Where Tory came from is a bit of a mystery, though, since we don't really know anything of her backstory on the Colonies.

edit: ninja Simster snuck in, but Ellen didn't make it into the fleet because of Tigh. They had separated before the miniseries, she was waiting for him to return (from Aerilon? to Aerilon?) to see if they could reconcile... then she mysteriously showed up in the fleet, having no memory of how she got there.

That was the point of the callback to her arrival, last episode, from when Adama had originally retrieved her after being discovered in the fleet, and brought her back to Galactica in a raptor. And then everyone thought she was a Cylon plant (both, in the show, and all over the frackin' internets).

My prediction for tonite's episode (spoilers ahead):
We get to learn what the frack is up with Kara. The "actor who can play piano" they were looking to hire will probably be her father.

That won't turn out to be Daniel.

It will probably turn out to be another of the "head beings" who are in the place "between life and death" -- same as the Head Leoben who invited her to explore "between life and death" way back in "Maelstrom".

I don't think her reincarnation was at all Cylon-related, but entirely arranged by the "head beings".
I'm interested to see if I'm right, though.

You're right that she didn't make it to the fleet because of Tigh - but she was specifically allowed/welcomed on board Galactica due to her relationship with him.

Tonite should be good... I'll bet your right.

[carnivorousplant]

What does it mean, Head Beings? The unknown guy behind the green curtain?

[Lightray]

This is all discussion-terminology stuff, so I'm not spoilering it for this part:

"Head Beings", or as the Battlestar wiki calls them "Virtual Beings", are terms to refer to the characters who include: the Six who appears to Baltar, the Baltar who appeared to Caprica, the Baltar who appeared to Baltar, the Leoben who appeared to Kara (in "Maelstrom"), the Elosha who appeared to Laura (while the basestar was jumping), presumably the messengers who appeared to the Final Five on Earth, and possibly the beings who appeared in D'Anna's visions.

D'Anna talked about there being something "between life and death" and the Leoben vision that talked to Kara in "Maelstrom" invited her to explore "between life and death". So whatever they are, that apparently has something to do with it.

Fan theories abound, varying from reimaged Ship of Lights people (like "John" from the original series), to Lords of Kobol or posthumans, to angels.

Unfortunately, since the show has never named them, no one knows what to call the damn things when talking about them. "Head Six" seems to be the most common descriptor, hence "Head Beings".

[simster]

This is all discussion-terminology stuff, so I'm not spoilering it for this part:

"Head Beings", or as the Battlestar wiki calls them "Virtual Beings", are terms to refer to the characters who include: the Six who appears to Baltar, the Baltar who appeared to Caprica, the Baltar who appeared to Baltar, the Leoben who appeared to Kara (in "Maelstrom"), the Elosha who appeared to Laura (while the basestar was jumping), presumably the messengers who appeared to the Final Five on Earth, and possibly the beings who appeared in D'Anna's visions.

D'Anna talked about there being something "between life and death" and the Leoben vision that talked to Kara in "Maelstrom" invited her to explore "between life and death". So whatever they are, that apparently has something to do with it.

Fan theories abound, varying from reimaged Ship of Lights people (like "John" from the original series), to Lords of Kobol or posthumans, to angels.

Unfortunately, since the show has never named them, no one knows what to call the damn things when talking about them. "Head Six" seems to be the most common descriptor, hence "Head Beings".

I like the idea that they might be 'beings' with thier own agenda(s) - instead of just hallucinations, which is how I always took them - They can obviously take on whatever look 'works' with the persons current mental state or needs.

I thought in one of the early interviews, Head Six was specifically called a hallucination (aka 'not real')....

[Oakminster]

Maybe I'm overly optimistic, but it seems to me this show has a tendancy to follow up a weak episode with at least a good one. Last week was pretty bad. Maybe not "Black Market" or "The Woman King" (think that was the title...the one with Helo trying to deal with refugees) level bad, but close. This week ought to be better. Maybe some action...some non-senior citizen frakkin...and other good stuff.

Bonus points if they let Caprica 6 rip Ellen's head off or something.

Question: Does Tyrol know who killed Callie? Would he particularly care?

[levdrakon]

My prediction for tonite's episode (spoilers ahead):
We get to learn what the frack is up with Kara. The "actor who can play piano" they were looking to hire will probably be her father.

That won't turn out to be Daniel.

It will probably turn out to be another of the "head beings" who are in the place "between life and death" -- same as the Head Leoben who invited her to explore "between life and death" way back in "Maelstrom".

I don't think her reincarnation was at all Cylon-related, but entirely arranged by the "head beings".Regarding that,

Last week when Starbuck asks the bartender "where'd you get a piano" he looked at her kind of funny. At first I figured it's just because she's not well liked these days, but I wonder if there is even a piano there.

[Oakminster]

Regarding that,

Last week when Starbuck asks the bartender "where'd you get a piano" he looked at her kind of funny. At first I figured it's just because she's not well liked these days, but I wonder if there is even a piano there.


Speculation based on previous spoiler:

Wouldn't it be cool if the piano playing actor happened to be Billy Joel?

Just me? Oh. Nevermind then.

[simster]

Speculation based on previous spoiler:

Wouldn't it be cool if the piano playing actor happened to be Billy Joel?

Just me? Oh. Nevermind then.


Sing us a song...... wouldn't bother me any.

[ElvisL1ves]

Unfortunately, since the show has never named them, no one knows what to call the damn things when talking about them. "Head Six" seems to be the most common descriptor, hence "Head Beings".Unless Anders' reference to "angels" meant them, not the "Beings of Light" or heavenly emissaries from the Lords of Kobol or the One True Cylon God.

Question: Does Tyrol know who killed Callie?Nobody else does. Would he particularly care? He'd understand it had to be done to keep him alive, not just the other 3. He might be miffed over not being consulted first, though. But a good frak from his old GF might get him over that, too.


carnivorousplant, that wasn't deus ex toaster, that was part of The Plan. Whose plan exactly, we'll soon know.

[ElvisL1ves]

Sing us a song...... wouldn't bother me any.
If the PC guy could show up as a brain surgeon, anything's possible.

[levdrakon]

Question: Does Tyrol know who killed Callie? Would he particularly care?I thought Callie was presumed to be a slightly eye-raising suicide, but I don't think anyone knows. Tyrol does know Tory was present, and I wouldn't be surprised if he has mild back of the brain suspicions.

Would he care? I think so. At least there go Tory's chances for nookie from him.

[Bob55]

If the final 5 could resurrect, could they not have made copies of themselves too? Maybe the ones they sent to the 12 colonies were just copies. Maybe their goal is to get cylons and humans to coexist, so they are orchestrating this entire thing. Starbuck resurrecting could have been their doing, maybe she's the daughter of Daniel, or the final 5 can also resurrect humans. This would be in agreement with the theory that on Kobol there was a war between humans (who later became humanoid cylons) who could resurrect and those who could not.

[carnivorousplant]

carnivorousplant, that wasn't deus ex toaster, that was part of The Plan.

Darn it, I worked so hard on that phrase, too.

[levdrakon]

If the final 5 could resurrect, could they not have made copies of themselves too? Maybe the ones they sent to the 12 colonies were just copies. Maybe their goal is to get cylons and humans to coexist, so they are orchestrating this entire thing. Starbuck resurrecting could have been their doing, maybe she's the daughter of Daniel, or the final 5 can also resurrect humans. This would be in agreement with the theory that on Kobol there was a war between humans (who later became humanoid cylons) who could resurrect and those who could not.That, or someone from the original "our" pre-Kobol earth is around, orchestrating things.

When the 13th Tribe (re)settled earth, did they ever say what state they found it in when they got there?

[Oakminster]

As far as I know, there's never been much detail about how...or even when (our time) the 13th Tribe settled Earth. Anders was apparently in a cover band, or at least played "All Along the Watchtower" on a guitar, but for all we know, the Cylons may have done the "Kill all Humans" thing when they got there...or they could have been the original inhabitants.

I'm inclined to agree with those speculating that there is some as yet unseen entity involved. Dunno if/how that entity is related to the Head People. Head 6 seems to be evil...or at least Chaotic Neutral (for AD&D fans). I don't remember Head Baltar being especially evil. Wonder if there are different factions of Head People....

[carnivorousplant]

Starting now.

[Oakminster]

Show starts-------NOW.

[Oakminster]

Nice plot twist there. After seeing the preview, I assumed it was the Fleet that wanted to airlock Boomer. Shout out to the collborator episodes.

[MacTech]

Nice to see the integrated CAP crew....

Looks like the "Magical Cylon Jell-O" fix is just a stopgap measure, the ol' bucket's got terminal bone cancer..... maybe the "dying leader" is the Galactica, esp. since the MCJ-O is alive....

Looks like Boomer's in deep dren with her fellow meatbags, she's gotta pay for supporting the Cavilcade after all...

[MacTech]

Heh, "Felgercarb" toothpaste, nice shout-out to TOS Galactica... ;)

[carnivorousplant]

Heh, "Felgercarb" toothpaste, nice shout-out to TOS Galactica... ;)

HOw so? I never watched the damn thing. :)

[MacTech]

"Felgercarb" was another Galacticaverse profanity, I believe it's Colonial for "Daggitexcrement"

[Oakminster]

Liked the Chief/Boomer scene. Kinda reminded me of The Good, The Bad, & The Ugly gunfight scene in the way it was shot.

Gotta wonder how Cottle is smoking filtered smokes. Figured he was rolling his own.

[carnivorousplant]

Starbuck is flirting. Sort of like Klingon females throwing furniture.

[MacTech]

Starbuck is flirting. Sort of like Klingon females throwing furniture.

so the piano player should be ducking then....

So far, yet another talky episode <yawn>

Needs more 'splodey stuff.....

[carnivorousplant]

Can't we blow something up now?

[carnivorousplant]

Simulpost, however you spell it.

[Oakminster]

Can't we blow something up now?

Yes please. We know Starbuck wants frakked. Need 'splosions.

Also, I don't like girly Starbuck. She's hard. She should be shown that way.

[MacTech]

This will probably be another talky episode all the way through (talky eps are cheap)

they're probably saving our 'splodey stuff for the Final Two or the Final Episode (where it's revealed the whole frakkin' thing was nothing more than a fever dream of Boxey)

Frakkit, I want more 'splodey stuff!

[carnivorousplant]

Also, I don't like girly Starbuck. .

That is just a clever ruse to lull her enemies into a false sense of confidence.

[Darth Sensitive]

Chief :eek:

[MacTech]

ooh!, !StalkerChief!, creeeepy, maybe he'll try to download Boomer's memories into Generic Number Eight #4247....

<Piano player> KSS, KSSSHHH, No Kara.......I *AM* your Father!

[carnivorousplant]

WTF is going on with the Boomers?

[alphaboi867]

What's Chief's plan? There's nowhere for him and Boomer to go (other than back to Cavil) and every other Cylon can recognize her as Boomer on sight.

[MacTech]

D'oh, I forgot, Downloading no worky right now, as they don't have any backup hardware to perform Archive and Installs into new meatbag chassis.....

....silly robots, you really should know better

[Oakminster]

Hmm...masochistic masturbating Boomerbots?

Wonder if Chief just bought himself an airlock ride. The other cylons woulda grokked the switch anyway...not sure what his plan was. Boomer is still evil...which surprised nobody but Chief...

[carnivorousplant]

She's only mostly dead...

[Darth Sensitive]

Drugging Hera maybe?

And the phantom pianist disappeared off the watchtower.

Spooky!

[MacTech]

<chills> Watchtower!.....

Kara, I *AM* your Father!....

Chief and Boomer are getting seriously creepy, betcha Hera was stored in that handy Carry-On luggage....

[alphaboi867]

OK, which one of us was the first to call Daniel as Starbuck's papa?

[carnivorousplant]

I hate kids in sci fi shows anyway.

[Archergal]

'Splodey

[MaddyStrut]

Boomer, you bitch!

[MacTech]

And we have our 'Splodey!

We're getting seriously dark here

[MacTech]

OK, which one of us was the first to call Daniel as Starbuck's papa?

Me, in this thread, in post #36

[carnivorousplant]

Well, that was exciting.
Does the Chief remind anyone else of Ernest Borgnie, however you spell it?

[Darth Sensitive]

The whole distorting space thing is a pretty cool side effect of jumping.

But retracting the flightpod wouldn't have stopped her jumping and would have hurt the ship worse?

[alphaboi867]

Me, in this thread, in post #36

I meant including past threads (ie since we first learned of Daniel 7).

[Lightray]

Man, this one was brutal.

Guess we know now why Boomer had to come back, eh?

OK, which one of us was the first to call Daniel as Starbuck's papa?
How the frack do you get that from this episode? All we know is that Kara or Kara's father is "plugged into" the same thing that Hera is.

[MacTech]

Okay, I'm making a pre-emptive call here.....

Before the end of the series, the Rebel BaseStar will be re-Og-ened (like christened, but cooler... ;) ) "Galactica" and will become the flagship of the RTF, as well as the symbol of Cylon-Human integration

The Cavilcade will show up, and the show will end with the BaseStar Galactica and the Cavilcade exchanging full-out weapons fire as the show fades to black, the series will not have a conventional ending, we will leave the show open-ended with the BaseStar Galactica and the Cavilcade continuing their battles

[carnivorousplant]

as the show fades to black, the series will not have a conventional ending, we will leave the show open-ended with the BaseStar Galactica and the Cavilcade continuing their battles

I can live with that. Beats "We are all Cylons, Happy, Happy, Joy Joy!" :rolleyes:

[Mahaloth]

Wow.

That was a great episode. I'm in awe.

[Archergal]

Yeah, I don't see a happy ending coming.

[Oakminster]

I like to react before reading what others thought about the conclusion. I'll go back and see what everbody said when this is posted.

40 minutes of slow build, 20 minutes of HOLYFRAK!

Chief is done. I figure he'll go the Colonial equivalent of Bud Dwyer next week. Boomer played him like a fiddle. He knows it, and that ain't the kind of thing he can live with...

I think Rosilyn just died. Boomer's dead. Hera's dead. Prolly lost several redshirts.

Don't think Galactica is gonna blow...not yet anyway.

Starbuck has to be some flavor of cylon, I think. That was "All Along the Watchtower" she finally pecked out, with Hera's help, right?

Ellen Tigh is all over the frakking place. Pyscho bitch last week, semi sane this week.

Piano man also smokes filtertips. Guess he has Cottle' hookup.

Was that a bag of weed just hanging mysteriously near the Final Five bar table?

Starbuck really loves Anders? I did not think she was capable of love.

Assignng a ding for semi-aware Athena being bound such that she could not make any noise while her husband is frakking Boomer. A groan, tossing and turning...throwing her body at the door...something.

Think we're gonna be getting a little more mystical than I expected.

Buckle up, folks. It's gonna be a hell of a ride from here on out.

I give the episode an B+ overall. The end of the episode really compensated for the dragging ass pace of the start and middle.

[Lightray]

Athena pretty obviously had a concussion of some sort -- blood dribbling out her nose (and ears?), blurry vision, staggering around when she finally gets out much later -- not so much a good sign.

I'm glad that Karl, at least, didn't instantly clue to the fact that Boomer wasn't Athena. I'm a bit surprised that Hera didn't pick up, given Boomer's past experience trying to care for her on the basestar.

I actually think Boomer was being sincere in what she said to the Chief. I just think that John Cavil has her all mind-fracked to heck, as he needed her for his Xanatos Gambit to... steal Hera for leverage on the Final Five, maybe?

Boomer is fracked, either way, of course. Madame Airlock and Helo + Athena will be on her six. Toasted toaster, she is.

Don't think Laura is dead, but suspect she will be in sickbay for her extended dying scene next episode (as previewed in her Elosha visions).

And, yeah, Kara loves Sam. And Lee. And Bill Adama, for that matter. Always has. Problem is... she's fracked up, and her love has bad consequences. As is always the case in getting involved with the crazy.

Also: I think the slow pace of the beginning was needed to set up the dawning horror that was the ending of this episode. I suspect that's why last episode was such a break in the momentum buildup, to make this work better. Maybe Moore will comment in his podcast.

[carnivorousplant]

I give the episode an B+ overall.
Ron Moore sleeps well at night. :)

[Oakminster]

How the frack do you get that from this episode? All we know is that Kara or Kara's father is "plugged into" the same thing that Hera is.

I'm not sure Piano Man was really there. Did anybody else see him besides Starbuck? Could he be a Head People?

[carnivorousplant]

I'm watching Six on Burn Notice. Evile.

[Oakminster]

Boomer is fracked, either way, of course. Madame Airlock and Helo + Athena will be on her six. Toasted toaster, she is.



You think Boomer lived through that? Barring Cavil casting a 5th level cleric spell, with no known res tech available...either she pulls a Starbuck and gets a shiny new raptor, or she's crunchy bread crumbs and scattered circuits....I think.

Yeah...major mind frakking this week. This is gonna be a gooooood BSG thread.

[Lightray]

I'm not sure Piano Man was really there. Did anybody else see him besides Starbuck? Could he be a Head People?
Piano Guy was not really there.

There was a clue last episode, when Kara asked the bartender when he got a piano, and he gave her a funny look.

No one else interacted with Piano Guy this episode.

And then, once Tory, Ellen, and Saul came up and accosted Kara -- Piano Guy was suddenly out of the shot, when she'd been looking right at him immediately before that.

Also, I think that his sheet music may have been gone, leaving only Hera's.

Edit: and, yeah, Boomer and Hera will have lived through that. Not only because it is necessary for the plot, but because all that happened to the Raptor was it got banged up and picked up some spin. The damage happened to Galactica from the aftermath of the Raptor's jump.

Go back and look at when the breakway tyllium ship jumped out from under a Raptor trying to land on it -- the jump caused the adjacent Raptor to tumble away.

[Oakminster]

Ron Moore sleeps well at night. :)

I had it at A-...thus the "an"...but I changed the grade when I gave a ding for "which Ellen this week?" and failed to change "an" to "a"....

[MacTech]

<snip>Chief is done. I figure he'll go the Colonial equivalent of Bud Dwyer next week. Boomer played him like a fiddle. He knows it, and that ain't the kind of thing he can live with...

Agreed, now there's nothing to tie him to the Galactica, he can go over to the Basestar, he's going over in disgrace though

I think Rosilyn just died. Boomer's dead. Hera's dead. Prolly lost several redshirts.
Not sure on Rosilin, but yeah, Boomer and Hera are ....toast.... (sorry, sorry...) and of course when *don't* you lose redshirts, that's what they're made for...


Don't think Galactica is gonna blow...not yet anyway.
She's only Mostly Dead, mortally wounded, serious structural integrity breaches, and they probably have had a major setback to their jump ability, but at some point, she'll have a catastrophic failure that they don't have the resources to repair

Starbuck has to be some flavor of cylon, I think. That was "All Along the Watchtower" she finally pecked out, with Hera's help, right?
Yes, that was "Watchtower" from the Season 3 ep "Crossroads"

Think we're gonna be getting a little more mystical than I expected.
Dear Og I hope *not*, too much metaphysical crap already

Buckle up, folks. It's gonna be a hell of a ride from here on out.

I give the episode an B+ overall. The end of the episode really compensated for the dragging ass pace of the start and middle.
Agreed, it started slow and boring, extending to the middle only to have a multi-shocker ending, they made it talky enough to start boring the audience, then hits us with a major whammy

[Oakminster]

Piano Guy was not really there.

There was a clue last episode, when Kara asked the bartender when he got a piano, and he gave her a funny look.



Hmmm...now that you mention it...Piano Man didn't smoke until Starbuck mentioned the smell of tobacco on her father's breath.

[Lightray]

I actually wondered if Kara knew what was up with Piano Guy -- and just wouldn't admit it to herself -- when the only thing she took from Helo was that tape of her father's music.

Which, presumably, had the song he'd been composing which she liked. This show can be subtle enough to do stuff like that.

[billfish678]

The feldercarb toothpaste bit made the many hours of watching this and the original series all worth it :)

[carnivorousplant]

Hmmm...now that you mention it...Piano Man didn't smoke until Starbuck mentioned the smell of tobacco on her father's breath.

I'll watch it again tomorrow. I don't believe Ron Moore and Crowd are that sophisticated.

[Lightray]

Hrm... read elsewhere speculation that the song which Kara accuses Piano Guy of plagerizing was this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHp9oZPqs8E).

Which I didn't catch, but which would be awesome.

[billfish678]

If the PC guy could show up as a brain surgeon, anything's possible.

That certainly explains the ressurections not going quite right...if only they had macs....

[Prox]

The Chief is screwed. No way they don't connect Boomer's escape to him, and no way do they believe he didn't have anything to do with snatching Hera. He really should've went with Boomer. I don't think the Cylons will forgive him for losing Hera.

Starbuck's dad's song being "All Along the Watchtower" looks like pretty strong proof that he's Daniel. I guess Anders programed that one.

[MacTech]

*IF* it turns out that Starbuck is actually a Cylon/Human hybrid and actually predates Hera, it may explain not only her "resurrection", but how she was, for a while, the "best <fill in the blank> in the fleet" in seasons 1 and 2

on rewatching the ep, it looks like the news of Hera's and Boomer's death have been greatly exaggerated, Boomer's raptor jumped away after hitting Galactica's hull....

Frakkin' hit-and-run Toasters, she didn't even have the decency to stop and exchange insurance info, bet she'll have trouble getting her ToasterCare insurance policy renewed....

[Bob55]

Well if the series does go to hell, on the one hand I'll understand it since the theme of the show has pretty much been about human misery, but on the other I probably would not buy the DVDs. I know that seems cheap, but after 4 seasons I want at least something to end well, and it all to have meaning. A lot of this show was about destiny, purpose, and an overall plan, and if it ended badly I'm not sure I could go along with it.

So maybe they considered this when they wrote the final episodes...or maybe they'll go the artistic "everybody dies" route, but I really hope not. Sometimes it's ok to go the conventional happy ending route.

[MacTech]

So maybe they considered this when they wrote the final episodes...or maybe they'll go the artistic "everybody dies" route, but I really hope not. Sometimes it's ok to go the conventional happy ending route.

Since when has the re-imagined BSG ever had a "happy" ending?, TPTB love to have the characters wallow in misery, heck, the series started with the total thermonuclear genocide of the Human race and went downwards from there...

'aint no happy endings in the BSG-Verse....

...and that's why I like it, I hate sci-fi series that take place in a squeaky clean utopia where everyone gets along and there are magical unicorns and bunnies and targs (yes, I'm looking at *YOU* ST-TNG) or shows with liberal use of the "Reset Button" (TNG and Voy)

Give me Babylon 5, Farscape, re-imagined BSG, Doctor Who, Torchwood, heck, even Lexx, over the formulaic happy-happy-joy-joy world of the Roddenberryverse

[Oakminster]

Well...one issue raised early on was whether humanity deserves to survive. Maybe the answer is no. I could live with that.

[Lightray]

*IF* it turns out that Starbuck is actually a Cylon/Human hybrid and actually predates Hera, it may explain not only her "resurrection", but how she was, for a while, the "best <fill in the blank> in the fleet" in seasons 1 and 2
But that is the problem with this hypothesis: it explains neither of these.

Kara's return was nothing at all like the Cylon resurrections we've seen. She showed up out of nowhere in a spooky new Viper with no memories of how she got there, while her body meanwhile got teleported lightyears from someplace different, to Earth. Cylon tech doesn't do that stuff.

And Hera is showing no signs of being "the best damn" anything in the fleet. She draws pictures, and has visions. Kara draws pictures. So does Ellen. And in this fleet, if you're not having visions you have to realize that you're a secondary character and not long for this world, anyway.

Furthermore, I have faith that the writers have once again set up a too-obvious-though-it-looks-clever fakeout, as they have been wont to do before.

[Rich Mann]

Well...one issue raised early on was whether humanity deserves to survive. Maybe the answer is no. I could live with that.

Wait...if humanity doesn't survive...and you live...OH MY GODS--you're a frackin' Cylon!!!

Marines! Airlock this toaster!

[Cervaise]

Boomer played him like a fiddle.Actually, she played him like a piano. :) My viewing companion and I watched the episode twice, back to back, and the deliberate thematic resonance was unmistakable. The episode certainly has a talky beginning and a slow-burn build, but on second watch, everything hangs together, and you can see how carefully the script has been constructed.

And it's also remarkable to think back two episodes, when we were guessing that Cavil was playing Boomer, manipulating her sympathies by having her sit in on the interrogation, intending for her to help Ellen escape to the fleet, for purposes then unknown; when actually, now, it turns out that Cavil was playing Ellen, giving her a plausible reason to believe Boomer wanted to return to the fleet for non-nefarious purposes. You can imagine the scene with Cavil: "Okay, Boomer, here's the deal. I'm going to bring you in while I grill Ellen. You'll pretend to start having doubts, and when we're ready you'll act like you've lost faith in me and are betraying me. As soon as you get back to the fleet, grab Hera at your first opportunity and get back here. Got it? Good." Heck of a reversal; I don't think anybody saw it coming.

Now the only question is: Why does Cavil want Hera?

[jackdavinci]

OK, which one of us was the first to call Daniel as Starbuck's papa?

I think multiple people jumped on that after two seconds. But I don't think that was at all suggested by this episode. At best, Papa had some connection to the magical final five supernova music.

I'm not sure Piano Man was really there. Did anybody else see him besides Starbuck? Could he be a Head People?

Seems like he disappeared with his music when the final five showed up. Hmmm but the piano was still there...

You think Boomer lived through that?

Why wouldn't she? The raptor was spinning out of control so she FTLd right before she was going to crash into the ship. The BSG was damaged by the spatial rift, but there's no reason the raptor would be injured by it's own rift.

Hmmm...now that you mention it...Piano Man didn't smoke until Starbuck mentioned the smell of tobacco on her father's breath.

True, but he had a lit cigarette in the ashtray from the first scene.

Am I the only one who thinks Boomer might have been at least a little sincere? She may have had a mission to steal Hera, but she probably does love the Chief. And hey it's even possible she stole Hera as a hostage and not as her mission.

What was up with the empty house at the end? Was it just symbolic? Or does it mean that Boomer was lying? If she truly loved the Chief, would they still have been able to project together even though she has jumped away?

I'm wondering where the other rebels are. Has the entire cylon fleet been destroyed except for the rebel and the Cavil basestars?

This episode was somewhat of a tease. The teasers made us think that we might get some real Starbuck answers and not just some odd clues.

Is Laura dead? Interesting that her fate is somehow tied to Hera's.

Also interesting a few episodes ago - Sharon freaked out previously and killed one of the sixes for getting near Hera, but then during the mutiny she lets Caprica Six, who is the actual six that was interested in Hera, babysit.

[HMS Irruncible]

Hrm... read elsewhere speculation that the song which Kara accuses Piano Guy of plagerizing was this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHp9oZPqs8E).In my opinion he was poaching off Clair de Lune (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfSV_k3MhCw) like a motherfuck for most of the episode.

[ElvisL1ves]

Kara's father was named Dreilide. It was on the cover art of the tape she had.

Boomer may have a bun in the toaster, courtesy of Helo. That scene had to be for a purpose.

Speaking of purposes, there had to be one for Tigh mentioning seeing the dead Liam's eyes open. Sam's eyes are open now too. Yes, they frakkin' did it. :(

But a time-killing episode all the same. Yes, we already knew Starbuck's in torment wondering who she is. We already knew Hera has mystical mind powers. We already knew Cavil knew that and wanted to control her. The only revelation was Boomer's (and every Cylon's?) power of neuroimaging telepathy, whateverthefrak she called it.

Chief may not be done with Galactica, but he's chastened. Men are never too old to think with the wrong head.

[HMS Irruncible]

The only revelation was Boomer's (and every Cylon's?) power of neuroimaging telepathy, whateverthefrak she called it.
Projection. We already knew about that too; Actual Six explained it to Baltar when he first went on the Basestar.

[ElvisL1ves]

Okay, not even that then.

Boomer is far more frakked than Chief or anyone else now, btw. She screwed Cavil by taking Ellen away from him, now the fleet wants her dead. Plus, only the fleet can recover resurrection technology now - if she's with Cavil, she's as doomed as he is; it's just a matter of time. But, this way the fleet only has to hide from him long enough to outlive him.

No amnesty for even the lowest-rank mutineers, huh? Not yet, at least. Seesm too harsh, under the circumstances.

Next week: "Islanded in a Stream of Stars", then the closing multipart "Daybreak". That sounds optimistic, and therefore inappropriate.

[ElvisL1ves]

And it's also remarkable to think back two episodes, when we were guessing that Cavil was playing Boomer, manipulating her sympathies by having her sit in on the interrogationOr, simply, as Ellen told Boomer, he likes having an audience to show off to. That seems closer to what we've seen of him emotionally, anyway.

Now the only question is: Why does Cavil want Hera?She has mad powerz. He likes power. He wants to control hers. It doesn't have to be any deeper than that.

Did Piano Man make anyone else think of Vic Damone in the holodeck?

[HMS Irruncible]

Boomer is far more frakked than Chief or anyone else now, btw. She screwed Cavil by taking Ellen away from him, now the fleet wants her dead. Plus, only the fleet can recover resurrection technology now - if she's with Cavil, she's as doomed as he is; it's just a matter of time. But, this way the fleet only has to hide from him long enough to outlive him.
I forecast Hera will be a bargaining chip for Cavil to gain what he wants. I presume that what he wants is the whole Resurrection research team working for him at gunpoint.

No amnesty for even the lowest-rank mutineers, huh? Not yet, at least. Seesm too harsh, under the circumstances.
I don't think they said no amnesty for anyone at all... it was mentioned only that they lost some pilots, which I would expect. Fighter pilots are all officers, and the positions they hold are especially security-sensitive as well as highly symbolic. Plus, they can afford to space mutinous pilots since they gained some heavy Raider crews after the Cylon integration question was settled.

[MaddyStrut]

My guess is Cavil wants Hera for leverage. Being everyone's hope for the future, she's really the most powerful bargaining chip he could have now that earth and resurrection are gone.

I suspect the rebel cylon admiration of the final five is going to drop after this, and they'll no longer do things like leave the decision on whether or not to leave the fleet up to the final five. Listening to them has led to Six's lost baby (in their eyes, not in mine) and Boomer escaping with Hera.

Not sure what was up with Cheif's projection at the end. My guess is it was a manifestation of his sense of betrayal and loss. Rather than projecting a happy, family life, he projected a scene of abandonment.

Man this episode played on my heart strings. I was all set up to feel sympathy for Boomer and root for her escape. Then, when she did, it just smashed me! This show manipulates me like Silly Putty!

I don't think the show is going to end totally dark or totally happy-happy-joy-joy. I suspect it will end with some bright spots and a future for the human and cylon races. However, I don't think all characters will end up in a good place. Some will likely have very tragic ends that leave me sobbing like a little girl who lost her puppy. But it can't be all bad for everyone... unless Ron Moore wants to put us all on Prozac!

[HMS Irruncible]

I think Boomer has to go down Gaeta-style, maybe with an extra teaspoonful of redemption and sympathy.

[carnivorousplant]

But it can't be all bad for everyone... unless Ron Moore wants to put us all on Prozac!

I rather suspect that he does. :)

[Hellestal]

Everything, absolutely everything, was in place this episode. Even the smallest details. When Starbuck is givng the briefing and she says that Six has the color assignments and recognition signals, the Six in the front row raises her hand to inform the hyoo-mons that it's her and not one of the identical-looking blonds in the back. Such a little thing. Three seconds that show they're already adapting to working together.

God, I love that.

[Zakalwe]

Yeah, I caught that too. It was a great little moment.

Did anyone else think that Hera's drawing was a star chart and not music?

[Lumpy]

We're nearly at the end of the series and we still don't know just who or what is behind it all. Clearly there is someone or something other than humans, toaster Cylons, Earth Cylons and second-generation meatbag Cylons. I don't think Starbuck's father was Daniel simply because none of the second generation Cylons seem to be clued into the Watchtower music. I think he's yet another country heard from.

Also, we still have to find out why Baltar, of all presumably non-Cylon people, has been shadowed by a daemon all this time. And just what the frakin' opera house is all about. I'm gonna' be pissed if it turns out that millennia of human history and untold suffering and destruction, has all been so that the Lords of Kobol can recruit ONE new member- Hera.

[Mahaloth]

I have two things everyone should take a look at.

First, there is an interview with the writers of the episode, which the Tribune has done weekly.

Interview with the Writers of "Someone to Watch Over Me" (http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2009/02/battlestar-galactica-starbuck-boomer-someone-to-watch-over-me-.html#more)


Secondly, and even more important/interesting, is Bear McCreary's Blog about the entire production of this episode. Instead of merely commenting on the score, he writes about the production, which he was intimately involved on(because of the musical focus of it).

Bear McCreary's Blog (http://www.bearmccreary.com/blog/?p=1597)

Both are really interesting and add a lot to the episode. I was not surprised they originally tried to have Slick played by Bear, but am disappointed it didn't work.

[HMS Irruncible]

What's this some people have mentioned about Liam's eyes being open at some point? Liam is a dead fetus, when/how did we see this? Ultrasound?

[carnivorousplant]

Liam is a dead fetus, when/how did we see this? Ultrasound?Cottle had to remove the body...is abort the correct term when the fetus is dead?...and Tighe said he saw the body. I don't know if it was developed enough to have open eyes or not. I'm a BSG fan, not a doctor!

[Rubystreak]

Boomer is far more frakked than Chief or anyone else now, btw. She screwed Cavil by taking Ellen away from him, now the fleet wants her dead.

She didn't screw Cavil. The whole thing was a set up. Cavil sacrificed possession of Ellen to get Hera. I'm sure she'll be welcomed back to the Cavilcade with open arms.

[Ice Cream Man]

What I thought was interesting and possibly symbolic is that the dots/notes that Hera handed to Kara had 13 dots, the last of which was not coloured in like the rest. Symbolizing the 12 cylon models we know/have met and the one (Daniel) remaining?

[TooSchoolforCool]

Why did people get the impression that Boomer died and that her ship was destroyed? I didn't, and as far as I can tell, the humans on Gallactica were under the impression that she and Hera were safely on their way to Cavil, having wreaked mega-havoc.

[Lightray]

Am I the only one who thinks Boomer might have been at least a little sincere? She may have had a mission to steal Hera, but she probably does love the Chief. And hey it's even possible she stole Hera as a hostage and not as her mission.
Oh, no. I think Boomer was being sincere to the Chief. I think she really did feel the way she said she felt.

I also think it is not going to make one whit of a difference, now.
But a time-killing episode all the same. Yes, we already knew Starbuck's in torment wondering who she is. We already knew Hera has mystical mind powers. We already knew Cavil knew that and wanted to control her. The only revelation was Boomer's (and every Cylon's?) power of neuroimaging telepathy, whateverthefrak she called it.
Man, what?

The point of this episode was that it completely changed the status-quo. John Cavil now has Hera. Galen Tyrol is mindfracked beyond belief. Athena, Helo, Laura, and probably most of the rebel Cylons are going to be freaked the hell out.

And, the big revelation that you seem to think is necessary to each episode now: Starbuck is plugged into whatever it was that activated the Final Five. Up till now, we've only had people assuming that was the case, and proceeding as though it were established fact.

[Ad Astra]

Speaking of purposes, there had to be one for Tigh mentioning seeing the dead Liam's eyes open. Sam's eyes are open now too. Yes, they frakkin' did it.

I could be wrong, but I got the impression that Tigh was talking about going in to see Sam, rather than Liam's eyes being open. I'd have to go back and watch the scene again to make sure though.

[Lightray]

Yes, Saul was talking about Liam's eyes being open -- hence Ellen hissing at Galen and Tory about what he was going through with his son having just died.

And, Sam's eyes were only open in the first scene in the sickbay. When Kara goes back to see him, his eyes are closed again. Red herring.


Also forgot to mention: anyone notice that Laura turned out to be right about Boomer? When did she get to be such an expert on Boomer? She didn't really interact with her any before Adama got shot, and Boomer got Cally'd.

[Rubystreak]

A question comes to mind: if Boomer is pregnant from her liaison with Helo, does that contradict the idea that the parents have to be in love for a Cylon to conceive? I wonder if this will even happen, or if we will ever get an answer about why Athena has had the only successful hybrid baby (that we know of), but I'm curious and I hope it's addressed before the show ends.

[Cervaise]

Secondly, and even more important/interesting, is Bear McCreary's Blog about the entire production of this episode. Instead of merely commenting on the score, he writes about the production, which he was intimately involved on(because of the musical focus of it).

Bear McCreary's Blog (http://www.bearmccreary.com/blog/?p=1597)This is absolutely fascinating and well worth reading. It adds a lot to what the show's creators were thinking about and trying to do with the episode.

There's also one interesting throwaway detail in the second part:<Director Michael> Nankin showed me these specific scenes in the script he wanted music for and I played them out in my mind, performing score that I thought would be useful in the cutting room. It was strange, to "score" scenes that hadn’t been edited (or in some cases, even shot) yet. Supervising editor and associate producer Andy Seklir was also on set, so I was able to discuss these pieces with him as well.

I performed solo piano versions of "Roslin and Adama," Tyrol’s Theme and Starbuck’s Theme and anything else I thought might come in handy. (And since you’re wondering, the entire Roslin and Adama subplot was cut out of the episode, so I hope you can see these scenes on the DVD set.)Wonder what was going on there.

[Oakminster]

After sleeping on it:

1) How much time has passed since the last episode? Starbuck's Cag briefing seemed to imply that they'd been doing the same routine for weeks, but Ellen said something about how Tigh just lost his son.

2) The Rebel Cylons now have a seat on the council (or whatever they call it).

3) Did Caprica Six survive the miscarriage? Nothing was said about her, and I don't think she was the Six talking to Lee, Rosilyn, Adama, et al.

4) If Piano Man was a projection/manifestation/something of Starbuck's father, it would explain her soft girly behavior around him---and why she didn't frak him.

5) Chief is guilty of assault & battery of a random 8, jailbreak, and could be charged with conspiracy to commit kidnapping, accessory to attempted murder, and Capital Gullibility.

6) WTF is up with Rosilyn telling Chief "you're dismissed"? He's not military, neither is she.

7) Looks like "how did Boomer find the fleet" is going to be left as a gaping plothole.

[Cervaise]

Oh, and I don't think Boomer frakked Helo because she wanted to get pregnant or because the writers wanted us to think about her maybe getting pregnant. I think Boomer frakked Helo because of jealousy: Athena succeeded in achieving virtually everything Boomer started out pursuing, but totally lost her chance at getting -- a loving man, the trust of Adama, a child, everything. Boomer is lashing out at, and trying to damage, the things Athena holds precious.

[Rubystreak]

Oh, and I don't think Boomer frakked Helo because she wanted to get pregnant or because the writers wanted us to think about her maybe getting pregnant. I think Boomer frakked Helo because of jealousy: Athena succeeded in achieving virtually everything Boomer started out pursuing, but totally lost her chance at getting -- a loving man, the trust of Adama, a child, everything. Boomer is lashing out at, and trying to damage, the things Athena holds precious.

I agree with this completely, and would add that I think Boomer is kinda evil, and enjoys frakking with people. My musing about the possibility of pregnancy is based on curiosity about this Cylon belief that love is necessary for conception, and whether or not that will ever be addressed and proven or debunked before the series ends.

[Frazzled]

7) Looks like "how did Boomer find the fleet" is going to be left as a gaping plothole.

I don't think this is a plothole. Throughout the series we have seen that the Cylons have some ability to track the fleet. That Boomer was able to find the fleet makes me wonder if John knows exactly where they are and is tracking them from a distance to see where they are going before revealing his hand. He likely told Boomer exactly where to go.

[Oakminster]

Oh, and I don't think Boomer frakked Helo because she wanted to get pregnant or because the writers wanted us to think about her maybe getting pregnant. I think Boomer frakked Helo because of jealousy: Athena succeeded in achieving virtually everything Boomer started out pursuing, but totally lost her chance at getting -- a loving man, the trust of Adama, a child, everything. Boomer is lashing out at, and trying to damage, the things Athena holds precious.

My take on it is she frakked him because she was posing as Athena. Athena certainly would have wanted a goodbye frak before a lengthy away mission. Had she resisted, it might have made him suspicious...or he might have looked in the closet/locker thing where she stashed Athena.

[Oakminster]

Beware the dreaded consecutive post!

What are we supposed to believe about the Watchtower song:

Bob Dylan was a space/time traveling bard and also Starbuck's dad?

Dylan was a cylon who wrote great music but couldn't sing?

"Dylan did not write All Along the Watchtower" as a shout out to debunked controversy about Blowing in the Wind?

Two composers on opposite sides of the galaxy wrote the same song?

[gallows fodder]

My take on it is she frakked him because she was posing as Athena. Athena certainly would have wanted a goodbye frak before a lengthy away mission. Had she resisted, it might have made him suspicious...or he might have looked in the closet/locker thing where she stashed Athena.
I agree. I don't think she deliberately planned to hook up with Helo or was happy about it (maliciously or not / ecstatic moans aside) -- there were a couple of moments during their conversation when she turned her face away from him and she clearly was not smiling. I think if sex with Helo been a deliberate ruse, Boomer-as-Athena would have acted completely enthusiastic, and Grace Park wouldn't have made those acting choices.

The shot of Kara's face when the camera reveals the piano player was in her head will go down as one of the more heartbreaking images of this show. That made me tear up. (Though it was nice to watch this show with my mother, who was a Days of Our Lives addict back when Roark Critchelow played Mike Horton and was the object of my mother's crush. :))

[carnivorousplant]

Two composers on opposite sides of the galaxy wrote the same song?

According to the Bear Macready blog, it isn't All Along the Watchtower.

[levdrakon]

I'm disappointed with Helo. Never mind that Athena should at least be cutting her hair a bit differently by now, but Helo & Athena must have worked out their own personal style of lovemaking. Ellen knew instantly Tigh had frakked someone else, and Helo should have known instantly "Athena" wasn't doing all the special little things they always do. I know *I'd* be able to tell my long-term lover was performing differently, and not whispering those secret little things they normally do.

Boomer is definitely jealous of everything Athena has achieved, but she could have wanted a shot at a baby too. Helo apparently has super-sperm and is the only known human male who can successfully make a kid. Maybe she figures it's the human who has to feel genuine love.

I vote the Raptor made a successful jump. It was a cool revelation about the danger of jumping too close to another ship, but one would wonder now why Raiders weren't jumping directly into Galactica back before they lost rez-tech.

Last week I was wondering how Cavil was going to get the FF together and convince them to help him without destroying the fleet. Now we know. Except the FF still don't have all their memories.

Starbuck said they've been flying these patrols for weeks, but they still haven't confirmed they've left earth's system yet, right? They're sending out Raptors as planet hunters. I wonder why they also aren't sending out Raiders as planet hunters?

About Six having the color assignments and recognition signals. Her raising her hand was a nice touch but uh... "SIX??" Sorry, but the Sixs should have callsigns and name tapes on their uniforms now. It does no frakking good to call a bunch of pilots "Six." Confuuuuusion.

[Priam]

It seems like people are making the unjustified (and indeed increasingly difficult) assumption that this Earth's history is in any way eventually meant to coalesce with our Earth history. Since the discovery of Earth, I've come to view this as a superficially similar but deeply different universe. It makes a lot of the leaps (how are we Cylons? Is this meant to be our past or future? How did Bob Dylan turn into a Cylon?) utterly unnecessary. Yes some of the stylistic choices seem glaringly annoying even then, but they no longer offer a canonical problem.

[Mahaloth]

Two composers on opposite sides of the galaxy wrote the same song?

In one of the Tribune interviews, they stated that they had originally had a scene showing Anders writing the song on Earth. More than anything, it's just catchy and a connection to Earth.

According to the Bear Macready blog, it isn't All Along the Watchtower.

I think he meant the instrumental section Kara was playing when the final five came over. He took All Along the Watchtower and added a ton to make that scene. It is All Along the Watchtower, though; just listen to it at the end of Season 3's OST.

[MaddyStrut]

Oh, and I don't think Boomer frakked Helo because she wanted to get pregnant or because the writers wanted us to think about her maybe getting pregnant. I think Boomer frakked Helo because of jealousy: Athena succeeded in achieving virtually everything Boomer started out pursuing, but totally lost her chance at getting -- a loving man, the trust of Adama, a child, everything. Boomer is lashing out at, and trying to damage, the things Athena holds precious.

Yup. I'm another who thinks this is the reason Boomer frakked Helo. In the beginning, she was resisting. Then she grabbed at Helo to kiss him like she was grabbing a chance to get revenge on Athena. The look she had when she pushed him away and then went towards him was just greedy. I do think she loves Tyrol, but she definitely wanted that revenge frak with Helo.

Sucks to be Athena or Helo right now. First Boomer beats the crap out of Athena, then she fraks Helo, then steals their child! That's one hell of a bitch slap!

[levdrakon]

6) WTF is up with Rosilyn telling Chief "you're dismissed"? He's not military, neither is she.That wasn't a military thing, it was a President thing, and the rebel Cylons are now subject to the Colonial government, AFAICT. It's her prerogative to dismiss anyone from her office.

[Oakminster]

That wasn't a military thing, it was a President thing, and the rebel Cylons are now subject to the Colonial government, AFAICT. It's her prerogative to dismiss anyone from her office.

I disagree. "You're dismissed" is specifically a military thing. A civilian would say something more like "We're finished here" or "You can leave now" or "Get out of my office".

[Alessan]

I don't think this is a plothole. Throughout the series we have seen that the Cylons have some ability to track the fleet. That Boomer was able to find the fleet makes me wonder if John knows exactly where they are and is tracking them from a distance to see where they are going before revealing his hand. He likely told Boomer exactly where to go.

Isn't the fleet still orbiting Earth? I don't remember them jumping.

If they are, Ellen Tigh certainly knows where Earth is.

[Baldwin]

What I thought was interesting and possibly symbolic is that the dots/notes that Hera handed to Kara had 13 dots, the last of which was not coloured in like the rest. Symbolizing the 12 cylon models we know/have met and the one (Daniel) remaining?Good catch. I didn't get that, but I did call it as soon as Hera handed over the drawing (that it was musical notation, and would be the rhythm section to "All Along the Watchtower").

Before we watched, my girlfriend asked, "Think they'll explain anything?"

I said, "Well, if it helps, the episode title is Fuck it, everybody's a Cylon."

[Baldwin]

Isn't the fleet still orbiting Earth? I don't remember them jumping.

If they are, Ellen Tigh certainly knows where Earth is.Yeah, we've talked about that, but I don't remember anything making it clear that they're no longer in the vicinity of Earth.

And, we don't know for sure if "Earth" is Earth. (Except that, if the song we've heard really is what it sounds like, then the Final Five, in their previous lives 2,000 years earlier, lived on near-future Earth, inhabited by Cylons who arrived by spaceship rather than humans who evolved there. Which is moronic. I don't know.)

[Merijeek]

I can live with that. Beats "We are all Cylons, Happy, Happy, Joy Joy!" :rolleyes:

And my prediction is no matter the ending you'll still find a way to whine about it.

I'm not sure Piano Man was really there. Did anybody else see him besides Starbuck? Could he be a Head People?

I replayed it and checked. Kara and Piano Man are having their duet, she gets her big sappy smile at him, then Tigh grabs her and spins her around. Piano man is nowhere to be seen.

But I don't see why everyone is saying Boomer and Hera are dead. Boomer jumped - something unfortunate may have happened as a result (ie. not idea situation for a jump), but we have no reason to believe it results in instant death or anything.

And as for closing the flight pods, maybe there's something (EM fields?) that keep the FTL from working from inside (or to inside) a big ship. Otherwise, who needs guns? Just send suicide ships jumping into the reactors of enemy ships.

Seems like he disappeared with his music when the final five showed up. Hmmm but the piano was still there...

Yeah, the piano can't be imaginary. Starbuck had to be playing SOMETHING for the 3/5ths to hear their song.

She didn't screw Cavil. The whole thing was a set up. Cavil sacrificed possession of Ellen to get Hera. I'm sure she'll be welcomed back to the Cavilcade with open arms.

Another one of those that's so blatant once we get to the end of the episode I don't see how anyone could possibly not clearly see that it's exactly what's going on.

7) Looks like "how did Boomer find the fleet" is going to be left as a gaping plothole.

Feel free to give one reason to even suspect that Cavil doesn't know where the fleet is.

-Joe

[levdrakon]

I disagree. "You're dismissed" is specifically a military thing. A civilian would say something more like "We're finished here" or "You can leave now" or "Get out of my office".Well, Tyrol is military, so she may have chosen her words so he would understand precisely that she meant "we're done, shut up."

[Merijeek]

Well, Tyrol is military, so she may have chosen her words so he would understand precisely that she meant "we're done, shut up."

What's military speak for "I told you so, you dumbass"?

-Joe

[levdrakon]

What's military speak for "I told you so, you dumbass"?

-JoeIn this case it might be, "open the airlock." Or, possibly, "fire! Open the airlock."

[billfish678]

What's military speak for "I told you so, you dumbass"?

-Joe


You were right all along, SIR !

[Rubystreak]

Another one of those that's so blatant once we get to the end of the episode I don't see how anyone could possibly not clearly see that it's exactly what's going on.

It doesn't hurt that Ellen said as much towards the end of the episode. Even she realized in retrospect that she and Boomer got away all too easily.

[alphaboi867]

...5) Chief is guilty of assault & battery of a random 8, jailbreak, and could be charged with conspiracy to commit kidnapping, accessory to attempted murder, and Capital Gullibility...

You left out murder and treason. He killed one of the 8s putting goo on the hull and switched her corpse with Boomer during a blackout. To the guards it looks like she's sleeping.

6) WTF is up with Rosilyn telling Chief "you're dismissed"? He's not military, neither is she...[/QUOTE]

Didn't Adama reinstate Tyrol or is he basically a civilian contractor? As for Roslin, she's nominally the commander-in-chief.

[Oakminster]

Feel free to give one reason to even suspect that Cavil doesn't know where the fleet is.

-Joe

The last known position of the fleet for Cavil would have been at the Resurection Hub. Unless he has some previously undisclosed means of tracking them, they could be anywhere. The leak in the fuel system they were using to track the fleet was repaired some time ago. Cavil knew the fleet was searching for Earth, but there's been nothing to indicate he knows where Earth is. From Earth, the fleet could have gone anywhere---note I am in the "fleet is no longer at Earth" camp.

[Oakminster]

You left out murder and treason. He killed one of the 8s putting goo on the hull and switched her corpse with Boomer during a blackout. To the guards it looks like she's sleeping.

<snip>

Didn't Adama reinstate Tyrol or is he basically a civilian contractor? As for Roslin, she's nominally the commander-in-chief.

I don't think he killed that 8. She has a lump on her noggin, but I think she's still alive. My understanding is that Tyrol was working as a civilian contractor...but his status hasn't really been clarified.

[Merijeek]

The last known position of the fleet for Cavil would have been at the Resurection Hub. Unless he has some previously undisclosed means of tracking them, they could be anywhere. The leak in the fuel system they were using to track the fleet was repaired some time ago. Cavil knew the fleet was searching for Earth, but there's been nothing to indicate he knows where Earth is. From Earth, the fleet could have gone anywhere---note I am in the "fleet is no longer at Earth" camp.

Pegasus followed the Cylon fleet that was tracking Galactica. I'm assuming that the Cylons didn't have a fuel leak. There is no reason to believe that Cavil doesn't know where they are.

As a matter of fact, we have evidence that Cavil knows where they are since Boomer went straight there. It took her less than two days to accomplish.

So, seems to me there's more evidence that Cavil knows where they are than evidence that he doesn't.

-Joe

[Baldwin]

You left out murder and treason. He killed one of the 8s putting goo on the hull and switched her corpse with Boomer during a blackout. To the guards it looks like she's sleeping.Oddly enough, I think you're right. I looked at it again, and the 8 in the bunk in the brig does look kinda dead.

Not only that, it was specifically a big crescent wrench (spanner to you Brits) that Tyrol picked up to use on her -- just like Zarek used when he took the first life lost in the mutiny. There are so many kinds of betrayal in this show.

[Baldwin]

Pegasus followed the Cylon fleet that was tracking Galactica. I'm assuming that the Cylons didn't have a fuel leak. There is no reason to believe that Cavil doesn't know where they are.

As a matter of fact, we have evidence that Cavil knows where they are since Boomer went straight there. It took her less than two days to accomplish.

So, seems to me there's more evidence that Cavil knows where they are than evidence that he doesn't.

-JoeUnless we get more information, it sounds like a circular argument:

How did Boomer find the fleet? That's a plot hole.

No, it isn't -- we know that Cavil knows where the fleet is.

How do we know that?

Well, he sent Boomer, didn't he?

Now, if he does know exactly where they are, why hasn't he attacked? I'd guess it's because of the loss of the Resurrection Hub. Cavil doesn't want to get permanently dead.

[levdrakon]

Okay, so Cavil has some secret means of always knowing where the fleet is. Is it he, and he alone who has this secret tracking ability? Because if I'm a rebel Cylon on the run for my life I'm pulling Adama aside and saying "uh, I really need to tell you something."

The rebels would still know it was Cavil who always was able to find the fleet, somehow.

It makes more sense that:


Cavil can't track the fleet
Ellen knows where earth is
Ellen told Boomer
Now Boomer knows
They're still in the solar system
Now Cavil knows


Cavil *could* already know where earth is though, as he may have had access to Ellen's memories when she rezzed. Threatening to open her brain was just part of the "snatch Hera" plan, once he realized at some point he'll have to stop torturing the FF and rebuild rez-tech.

[Merijeek]

Now, if he does know exactly where they are, why hasn't he attacked? I'd guess it's because of the loss of the Resurrection Hub. Cavil doesn't want to get permanently dead.

He doesn't want to die. We've seen that the Cylons didn't have the insanely overwhelming force that they seemed to early on. I don't think they have overwhelming force (what, six or seven baseships at once at New Caprica, two of those were destroyed and then they had a civil war), and while they MIGHT win, for the first time in their "lives" they have to consider the possibility of actually dying in a fight.

Depending on what he actually wants from Hera (probably resurrection tech, but we don't know that for sure yet) he might not have wanted to blow her up as well.

-Joe

[carnivorousplant]

And my prediction is no matter the ending you'll still find a way to whine about it.


Are we in the pit? :)

[alphaboi867]

...And Hera is showing no signs of being "the best damn" anything in the fleet...

She's only three.

[Oakminster]

She's only three.

So she should kill her first bear any time now....
:D

[Merijeek]

Really, what all was Starbuck the "best damn" at? Being a fighter pilot and marksmanship.

Marksmanship in the cockpit should be a good crossover skill, so the fact that she's the best shot in the cockpit makes it likely she'll be the best shot out of one, too.

I know it's a long-running joke, but at what else is she "best in the fleet"?

-Joe

[carnivorousplant]

at what else is she "best in the fleet"?



Poker, drinking, and smacking superior officers come to mind. :)

[HMS Irruncible]

And, the big revelation that you seem to think is necessary to each episode now: Starbuck is plugged into whatever it was that activated the Final Five.
Actually, I don't think so. The tune Starbuck was plinking out was from notation written by Hera, IIRC. She certainly did seem to have a virtual Cylon experience, but then again so does Baltar. Maybe Baltar's her half-brother?

[levdrakon]

I think Starbuck was best strategist in the fleet during the tyllium episode. ;)

[HMS Irruncible]

6) WTF is up with Rosilyn telling Chief "you're dismissed"? He's not military, neither is she.
I thought he was reinstated by Adama. Not sure about constitutional law in this show, but a commander-in-chief normally would be considered the head of the military and thus entitled to give such orders. Anyway, what else would Roslyn say when she's tired of Tyrol's bleating? "Get the fuck out of my face?" It makes sense that she would just say "dismissed."

[levdrakon]

I thought he was reinstated by Adama. Not sure about constitutional law in this show, but a commander-in-chief normally would be considered the head of the military and thus entitled to give such orders. Anyway, what else would Roslyn say when she's tired of Tyrol's bleating? "Get the fuck out of my face?" It makes sense that she would just say "dismissed."I rewatched, and she did say "we're done here Chief" in Civilianese first. He was in uniform and wearing rank. When he didn't leave she said "you're dismissed." I'm sure she was putting it in military terms for him.

[vandal]

Okay, I've lost track of one of the Sharons.

I know Boomer is the one who shot Adama and just kidnapped Hera.

I know Athena is the one with Helo and who also just got pounded by Boomer.

But who's the Sharon that was working on the hull and got whacked in the head by Tyrol?

[Prox]

Just a random 8 from the Basestar.

I don't think Athena had any plans to frak Helo and even tried to get out of it before deciding she couldn't without raising his suspicion. Hard to say how into it she was; I don't really remember her being jealous of Athen's relationship with Helo before. I'm curious if Athena will hold it against Helo, but I don't think there's really enough time left to dwell on it.

I don't think there's any reason to believe the fleet is still at Earth. The Cylons have had at least two different ways of tracking the fleet; I don't see any reason why Cavil couldn't figure out another way, especially when there's a whole bunch of Cylon tech in the fleet now.

[carnivorousplant]

The Cylons have had at least two different ways of tracking the fleet; I don't see any reason why Cavil couldn't figure out another way, especially when there's a whole bunch of Cylon tech in the fleet now.
Is there any phenomenon in BSG that travels faster than light? I recall the Cylons saw Baltar's nuke go off some years later, but I don't recall how they were following them after they jumped in the first episode or so.

[levdrakon]

I don't think there's any reason to believe the fleet is still at Earth. The Cylons have had at least two different ways of tracking the fleet; I don't see any reason why Cavil couldn't figure out another way, especially when there's a whole bunch of Cylon tech in the fleet now.Conversely, if they jumped because Cavil can track them, they would definitely have shown us Cavil jumping in. Cavil may well know where they are, but if so he's holding back because that's not the plan at the moment.

Also, they're making a big deal out of how many jumps Galactica has left in her, and I think they're saving those on purpose for the finale, or at least until Cavil shows up.

[simster]

Everyone's assuming that Cavill would immediately jump to the fleet and start hammering at them.... He could very well know where they are and just be staying distant.

As others have pointed out, now that death is on the line, he thinks twice before starting a landwar in asia, or matching witts with a caprican.

If Hera is indeed special, he would also want her out of harms way (or atleast with him for leverage) when he does decide to jump in.

I have no issue with the idea that Cavill knows where they are, regaurdles of them being in Earth's solar system or not.

Is there any phenomenon in BSG that travels faster than light? I recall the Cylons saw Baltar's nuke go off some years later, but I don't recall how they were following them after they jumped in the first episode or so.

If memory serves, they stated that the blast was 1 year prior to thier arrival at New Caprica, so 1 light year, I guess.

I like that for the most part, they have tried to have a pretty accurate timeline for the show...

[Lumpy]

Also, they're making a big deal out of how many jumps Galactica has left in her, and I think they're saving those on purpose for the finale, or at least until Cavil shows up.preview spoiler: Dayum, it doesn't look like the Old Girl will make it to the finale!

[Lightray]

Actually, I don't think so. The tune Starbuck was plinking out was from notation written by Hera, IIRC. She certainly did seem to have a virtual Cylon experience, but then again so does Baltar. Maybe Baltar's her half-brother?
Kara told Saul that the tune she had been playing was one that her father had taught her. Kara was just as surprised that Hera had written down the tune, too.

Hera is plugged in, too. But we've known that since her mommy blew away Natalie. (BTW... what was the name of the new delegate Six that Lee congratulated? missed that)

Is there any phenomenon in BSG that travels faster than light? I recall the Cylons saw Baltar's nuke go off some years later, but I don't recall how they were following them after they jumped in the first episode or so.
Since the Hub had to be involved, and Rez Ships were required to extend its range, it would seem that resurrection occurs faster than lightspeed could account for.

And it's a little hazy, but Kara's body getting back to Earth from the Maelstrom planet before the fleet got there may also have occurred FTL.

[anu-la1979]

Sonja is Quorum Six.

[levdrakon]

preview spoiler: Dayum, it doesn't look like the Old Girl will make it to the finale!I haven't seen the preview yet. I was just thinking a few things:


Galactica only has a few jumps left. That old bird is not going to be mothballed. Oh, no. She's going out in glory.

They showed us how bad a close FTL jump is.

Cavil is coming with a Basestar. Hmmm. Wonder what a Galactica-sized FTL jump into that would do?


anu-la1979: Sonja is the new delegate on the Quorum of Ships' Captains. Does that make her captain of the Basestar?

[anu-la1979]

Okay, I'm making a pre-emptive call here.....

Before the end of the series, the Rebel BaseStar will be re-Og-ened (like christened, but cooler... ;) ) "Galactica" and will become the flagship of the RTF, as well as the symbol of Cylon-Human integration

The Cavilcade will show up, and the show will end with the BaseStar Galactica and the Cavilcade exchanging full-out weapons fire as the show fades to black, the series will not have a conventional ending, we will leave the show open-ended with the BaseStar Galactica and the Cavilcade continuing their battles

I really hope not, if only for the reason that it would be a straight up cribbing of the Sopranos. There's being inspired by the writing in another series and there's not being original enough to come up with your own fantastically crazy ending. I'd pretty much hate a world where every series ended as people waking up from a dream (Newhart) or with no resolution (Sopranos). It's cool once, not as interesting the fifth time over.

[anu-la1979]

I haven't seen the preview yet. I was just thinking a few things:

anu-la1979: Sonja is the new delegate on the Quorum of Ships' Captains. Does that make her captain of the Basestar?

I have no idea, I was just responding to Lightray asking her name. I taped the episode and I think I remember Lee saying something like "Congratulations on your election as the Cylon rep" or something.

[Lightray]

Yeah, thanks.

Sonja? Red Sonja, no doubt, because of Tricia's (in)famous little red dresses? Oy, with the in-joke names, already.

[TooSchoolforCool]

SciFi's "recap" narration episode also notes, very non-subtly, that the "piano man is gone" after Tigh accosts Starbuck. And implies that Boomer made it out alive, just causing lots of damage in the process.

[carnivorousplant]

Is the famous Canadian preview available?

[Acsenray]

Beware the dreaded consecutive post!

What are we supposed to believe about the Watchtower song:

Bob Dylan was a space/time traveling bard and also Starbuck's dad?

Dylan was a cylon who wrote great music but couldn't sing?

"Dylan did not write All Along the Watchtower" as a shout out to debunked controversy about Blowing in the Wind?

Two composers on opposite sides of the galaxy wrote the same song?

This is a red herring. There is no secret message about Bob Dylan. There is never going to be an explanation. Just like they won't explain about how the Colonials speak English in a form that is less than 500 years old in accents that are recognizable to us?

[carnivorousplant]

Just like they won't explain about how the Colonials speak English in a form that is less than 500 years old in accents that are recognizable to us?

Come now, Sir, you nit pick to the extreme. That is Poetic License. :)

[Acsenray]

I really hope not, if only for the reason that it would be a straight up cribbing of the Sopranos. There's being inspired by the writing in another series and there's not being original enough to come up with your own fantastically crazy ending. I'd pretty much hate a world where every series ended as people waking up from a dream (Newhart) or with no resolution (Sopranos). It's cool once, not as interesting the fifth time over.

Sopranos wasn't unresolved. In any case, it's only cribbing of Sopranos if it ends with a sudden long blackout.

[Acsenray]

Come now, Sir, you nit pick to the extreme. That is Poetic License. :)

That's my point. It's a mistake to try to wank continuity between reality and the story. That's not the point of the story. Does anyone wank the clocks in Julius Caesar? That's just the way it is. This is literature, not fantasy.

[levdrakon]

Seriously, how did Starbuck come by a HUMVEE? Why do they have a song from our earth? Really, some similarities can be let go.

[carnivorousplant]

That's my point. It's a mistake to try to wank continuity between reality and the story.
Still, I wish they had used Robert Johnson's Me and the Devil Blues instead of All Along the Watchtower. :)

[Baldwin]

Galactica, the ship, really is a character in the story; it'll be sad to see her go out. It's common for officers and crewmen to have a sentimental attachment to the vessels they served on -- but imagine if that ship were your home for years on end, keeping you alive in the vastness of space.

A 50-year-old ship, about to be mothballed as a museum at the time of the Cylon attack; now think of her slugging it out with Baseships to protect the remnants of humanity, taking damage time and again, slamming down into the atmosphere on New Caprica . . . . a lot of the human (and Cylon) characters have been ignoble and disappointing, but not Galactica.

[carnivorousplant]

Really, some similarities can be let go.
Well, they whack the corners of sheets of paper. How far would you take that? Object to the phone cords on Galactica being curled? The Humvee was a little much, but better than a flying Delorean, however you spell it. :)

[Oakminster]

This is a red herring. There is no secret message about Bob Dylan. There is never going to be an explanation. Just like they won't explain about how the Colonials speak English in a form that is less than 500 years old in accents that are recognizable to us?

I have a problem with that. Yeah, I know, fuck me and my problem, but still, if the song doesn't matter, then it should be some generic tune composed for the show. Since they used a song recognizable to us, they owe us an explanation that makes some kind of sense.

[Lightray]

I have a problem with that. Yeah, I know, fuck me and my problem, but still, if the song doesn't matter, then it should be some generic tune composed for the show. Since they used a song recognizable to us, they owe us an explanation that makes some kind of sense.
Baz Luhrman explained that he used familiar songs for Moulin Rouge! because they were instantly recognizable to his audience. The mood of the film was reinforced when they began singing "Your Song", because everyone was familiar with it -- he wanted the cultural baggage to work for the film.

Even though it makes no sense, in-setting, for "Your Song" or "Roxanne" to be in 18th century Paris.

Everybody recognizes "All Along the Watchtower". Oddly enough, BSG required a song that the Final Five would find maddeningly recognizable.

[carnivorousplant]

Since they used a song recognizable to us, they owe us an explanation that makes some kind of sense.
You make a very good point, but I fear Ron Moore chose All Along the Watchtower for the same reason I would choose Me and the Devil Blues, because he thought it was cool.

[carnivorousplant]

BSG required a song that the Final Five would find maddeningly recognizable.

Well dammit, I didn't recognize it maddeningly or otherwise until tonight when I played my "Best of Hendrix" CD, edited the DVR to a DVD and heard the beginning chord or riff or whatever the hell it is several times. :)

[Lightray]

So... you've been frustrated by that fracking song that you keep hearing over and over and don't understand why... and now, suddenly, you recognized that it was familiar. Is that it?

[anu-la1979]

Sopranos wasn't unresolved. In any case, it's only cribbing of Sopranos if it ends with a sudden long blackout.

You're right. I must have imagined all the controversy.

[Oakminster]

You make a very good point, but I fear Ron Moore chose All Along the Watchtower for the same reason I would choose Me and the Devil Blues, because he thought it was cool.

Coulda been worse. He could have used Mr. Roboto....
:D

[melodyharmonius]

So, I googled "Dreilide" and general consensus says it means "third eye." Interesting.

Hera was in the storage container - maybe if they get jettisoned - she could still survive? Especially since she's sleeping and would therefore require less air? I dunno.

Wouldn't Hera recognizer her own mom? Unless she knew that it had to be? I know, I know - Boomer used to babysit her. But remember, she wasn't happy about it.

The way Hera was drawing the circle of dots reminded me of a circle of 5ths - musical note structuring tool. At least, the way it was arced made it look like the start of a circle to me - the paper she went back to after giving Starbuck her special drawing.

I was pissed off Helo didn't recognize his wife - but then again - Tyrol recognized Boomer, not the others - and Tyrol being Cylon could differentiate.

Anyway - really enjoyed the episode.

[elmwood]

I think at the least ...

* They'll find a habitable planet.
* Adama will go down with the ship.
* Lots of humans will die.

[MeanJoe]

elmwood,

Yeah, I've been curious with all the speculation so far about Galactica going out guns-a-blazin' at the Cavilcade no one has mentioned the obvious conclusion - the Captain (Admiral in this case) goes down with his ship. If the Galactica is going out in a blaze of glory, Bill Adama is going with her!

MeanJoe

[Mahaloth]

I think at the least ...

* They'll find a habitable planet.
* Adama will go down with the ship.
* Lots of humans will die.

And Laura will die first, giving Bill someone to think about as Galactica "rams" Cavil(or whatever).

By the way, for the two-part, 3 hour finale, we are really going to need two threads for Battlestar. We'll need a talkback one and a "live" one that has live spoilers for those viewing.

[ElvisL1ves]

Various thoughts ...

The mutiny might have caused Roslin and Adama to declare martial law among the civvies. She might be CIC now, except that Adama is really giving the operational orders.

Watchtower was apparently the song Sam was performing in an Earth coffeehouse during that attack. It might be stuck in the Five's heads now because it was in all their heads when they died that time.

Boomer's jump did cause the CAP Raptor to crash into Galactica's side. The ship seems to have survived only because the jump was external. Adama's order to retract the pods seemed to have been out of a judgment that "she wouldn't frakkin' dare".

Helo might have succeeded in knocking Boomer up because he really was in love with the woman he really thought he was frakking. Boomer did it because she had to in order to keep up the disguise . Maybe the Cylons don't really have to love back to make it work?

All the devious, sinister, convoluted plans some of you (and very creatively too, Cervaise) about the Hera plot is just unnecessary. It was just Boomer trying to save her own hide, and exposing her own lack of a strong sense of self. Look: She joined Cavil because he swayed her into embracing her own Cylonity, and he gave her definition of it at a time when she lacked it. She left him when she realized what a petulant child he really is, vaguely expecting to reconcile with the fleet. When she found out she was definitely going to be executed if she stayed with them, that left her only chance at survival as rejoining Cavil. To keep him from killing her, she needed something to use as a peace offering. The location of the immobilized fleet would be nice, but the one remaining Pop Tart with all her superpowerz might be needed too - but there's no need to think Cavil knows a damn thing about what she was doing, and only partly because she was improvising.

[ElvisL1ves]

By the way, for the two-part, 3 hour finale, we are really going to need two threads for Battlestar. We'll need a talkback one and a "live" one that has live spoilers for those viewing.
Fine, whatever, as long as there are only 3 more weeks of inane posturing about the Spoiler Rules of the Week. Frakkin' hell, people ...

[ElvisL1ves]

Okay, I've lost track of one of the Sharons.
...
I know Athena ... just got pounded by Boomer
Yes, that's losing track all right. But wouldn't that still be fun to see? :D

[ElvisL1ves]

Also forgot to mention: anyone notice that Laura turned out to be right about Boomer? When did she get to be such an expert on Boomer? Laura is an expert on women. ;)

[carnivorousplant]

Coulda been worse. He could have used Mr. Roboto....


We are indeed fortunate. :)

[Rubystreak]

but there's no need to think Cavil knows a damn thing about what she was doing, and only partly because she was improvising.

Except for the ease with which she and Ellen escaped. Ellen mentioned it herself. Cavil wouldn't be likely to let those two slip through his fingers. He let them go. I believe that was the implication of the episode. He obviously has a lot of faith in Boomer, and might be the only person in the universe who should.

[ElvisL1ves]

Could be. But I thought he was just so full of himself, and so sure that he had Boomer's mind under his complete control, that it simply didn't register with him that she was doublecrossing him until too late.

[Lumpy]

I was pissed off Helo didn't recognize his wife - but then again - Tyrol recognized Boomer, not the others - and Tyrol being Cylon could differentiate.Oh come on, how long have the soaps been doing the "unwitting sex with the evil twin" thing? :D

I bet now they're wishing they'd picked Galactica to be the battlestar sacrificed at New Caprica instead of Pegasus.

[Acsenray]

You're right. I must have imagined all the controversy.

Well, there's a big "controversy" in the popular media every time Robin or Superman "dies" too. As David Chase said, all the clues are there. Tony was killed. That's why everything went black. There's a great video on YouTube that goes through the scene shot by shot to explain it.

[Acsenray]

I have a problem with that. Yeah, I know, fuck me and my problem, but still, if the song doesn't matter, then it should be some generic tune composed for the show. Since they used a song recognizable to us, they owe us an explanation that makes some kind of sense.

Does a playwright owe you an explanation as to why the rooms in a stage play have no ceiling and are missing a wall?

[Bob55]

And Laura will die first, giving Bill someone to think about as Galactica "rams" Cavil(or whatever).

I'm wondering if now Galactica will jump into Cavil's battlestar, since we saw how much damage it can cause this episode. Now that would be a way to go out!

[Oakminster]

Does a playwright owe you an explanation as to why the rooms in a stage play have no ceiling and are missing a wall?

Totally different situation...the set is generally not designed by the playwright. You're mixing technical production issues with storyline. By that logic, Ron Moore would have to explain why the cameras are able to capture the scenes we see. That song has been interwoven with the storyline, and needs to be explained.

[carnivorousplant]

That song has been interwoven with the storyline, and needs to be explained.
I have to disagree with you. I think it's a dumb choice because I don't see how it relates to the storyline, but they haven't used the lyrics. I don't think they intend to associate the lyrics with the storyline. It's just what Moore was listening to over some expensive Scotch late one night. :)

[Merijeek]

And why aren't they using fake names for things? I want microns as both a unit of distance and a unit of time! That's the way real SF should work!

-Joe

[Acsenray]

Totally different situation...the set is generally not designed by the playwright. You're mixing technical production issues with storyline. By that logic, Ron Moore would have to explain why the cameras are able to capture the scenes we see. That song has been interwoven with the storyline, and needs to be explained.

In that case, I go back to my first question. How is it they are speaking nearly exactly the same dialect of English as we are?

How is it they worship gods with names from our own history?

How is it they eat foods that we can recognize? Wouldn't the plant and animal life on their planets be different?

How is it that a couple of episodes ago I saw Adama writing with a pen that looks exactly like one I got from Staples a while back?

Do you expect explanations for all this stuff? None of it is any different from "All Along the Watchtower."

How is it that Starbuck was playing a freaking piano? It's very unlikely that they would come up with an instrument exactly like ours.

What if they had come up with a completely new and original Final Five Cylon song and then released a recording of that song on Itunes? Would they have to explain how a song that was demonstrably written by a real person and available in a commercial recording was heard on the show? A new composition is absolutely no different from a 40-year-old composition in this context.

[Rubystreak]

acsenray, I think you're missing the point of the objection. I would like to know if the BSG universe is supposed to take place in ours or not. It's not clear and it would be nice to know. If it is our universe, then Bob Dylan wrote "All Along the Watchtower." It's rather incongruent for them to say that Sam Anders wrote it. Now, if it's in an alternate reality, maybe I could understand it, though I agree it might have made more sense for the song to be an original composition. "All Along the Watchtower" has plenty of baggage that comes along with it, associations for those of us who've known it for years as a Dylan song. Trying to disassociate the song from what we know of it already seems like a lot of work to make the song to just to make it recognizable. I'm sure Bear McCready is more than up to the task of making up an original song that we'd recognize as the Final Five Wake Up Song. That makes me think they picked "Watchtower" for a reason, and I'd like to know what it is. If it wasn't picked for a reason, that would be disappointing.

[HMS Irruncible]

The implication to me of what's going on is that the series takes place in our universe. We humans who dwell on Earth are the 13th tribe, having forgotten all our origins from Kobol except what survived as Greek mythology. At some point in the near future, we'll rediscover those origins and start researching them. Someone on the resurrection team will be in a classic rock cover band. They all die in the Cylon holocaust somewhere in the year 2100-ish.

Nah, still doesn't work, if for no other reason than we'd have to ignore evolution and assume humanity arose from the ancient Greeks, who were descended from the 13th-tribe asylees from Kobol.

[jackdavinci]

I have to disagree with you. I think it's a dumb choice because I don't see how it relates to the storyline, but they haven't used the lyrics. I don't think they intend to associate the lyrics with the storyline. It's just what Moore was listening to over some expensive Scotch late one night. :)

They did use the lyrics. Both in the song itself and with the characters themselves saying some of the lines. In the original episode - not this week's. It's just another example of "all this has happened before and will happen again". It's already been shown that Ellen is convinced they are all being manipulated by some outside force, which is also related to the music. Anders wrote the song, but this outside force probably "inspired" him with a similar song to the same force that "inspired" Dylan. It's no weirder than all the other stuff they have that is Earth similar.

[carnivorousplant]

They did use the lyrics.
Then I stand corrected. Which episode? I'd like to watch it again since I missed something.

[Acsenray]

I would like to know if the BSG universe is supposed to take place in ours or not.

Does Hamlet take place in our universe? What about The Lord of the Rings? What about Beowulf?

My bet is that you're not going to get an answer to the question. It's not the kind of question that serious literature bothers with.

And what if they do say that it takes place in our universe? What about the fact that there are several things in the show that are demonstrably impossible in real life? Then what? You're still left with irreconcilable inconsistencies.

[Icerigger]

A link to a video containing filming from the last episode.

http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=d79179566bc18b53af924764f9977b1de04e75f6e8ebb871

[Oakminster]

Then I stand corrected. Which episode? I'd like to watch it again since I missed something.

It's the one where the "Dylan 4" woke up. I think Tigh says "There must be some kinda way outta here", Anders and Chief quote other lines...maybe even Tory gets one.

[Lumpy]

Does Hamlet take place in our universe? What about The Lord of the Rings? What about Beowulf?FWIW, I had considered starting a thread asking if Tolkien intended for his cosmology to include the Christian Incarnation, or if it's an "alternate theology" universe.

[carnivorousplant]

I think Tigh says "There must be some kinda way outta here",
I remember that, but it's not like they were singing the lyrics. Not "Battlestar galactica, the Musical." :)

[Oakminster]

In that case, I go back to my first question. How is it they are speaking nearly exactly the same dialect of English as we are?

How is it they worship gods with names from our own history?

How is it they eat foods that we can recognize? Wouldn't the plant and animal life on their planets be different?

How is it that a couple of episodes ago I saw Adama writing with a pen that looks exactly like one I got from Staples a while back?

Do you expect explanations for all this stuff? None of it is any different from "All Along the Watchtower."



I see all of those things as being different. Broadcast a show in ancient Greek, and your ratings will be lower than PBS against Monday Night Football. Klingons and Vorlons also speak English...most of the time. Think some Klingon to Klingon conversations got subtitles.

The common gods tie in with the notion of Earth/human history, but do not specifically have to be "our" universe. A pen is a pen...it's a functional design that could logically have been developed elsewhere along similar lines. Same as the vehicles seen on New Caprica. They have toothpaste, too...apparently Feldergarb Toothpaste comes in tubes much like ours does. The piano was not a Steinway, the trucks were not Fords, the pen was not a Bic. Those are all generic equivalents of functional items.

But a specific, recognizable song that we all know..that's different. It is not a generic equivalent...it's "All Along the Watchtower" as written by Bob Dylan, and sorta like it was performed by Jimi Hendrix.

[Acsenray]

Broadcast a show in ancient Greek, and your ratings will be lower than PBS against Monday Night Football.

But this justification is independent of your analysis. If you need to continuity-wank the song, then you need to continuity-wank the English.

You know, they could have taken pains to assure us that the characters don't actually know English and that we are viewing a "translated" record, but they didn't, because in the end, the purpose of drama and literature is not continuity.

A pen is a pen...it's a functional design that could logically have been developed elsewhere along similar lines.

But it is not solely functional. I recognized the pen because of its non-functional characteristics.

The piano was not a Steinway

There was no brand-name visible, but it was too much like a real piano for there to be any believable possibility of independent creation.

the trucks were not Fords

Again, the non-functional characteristics of some of the vehicles make them undeniably the same as vehicles we have, obviating any reaosnable possibility of coincidence.

Those are all generic equivalents of functional items.

They all have functional and non-functional characteristics. In that respect, they are just like a song.

But a specific, recognizable song that we all know..that's different. It is not a generic equivalent...it's "All Along the Watchtower" as written by Bob Dylan, and sorta like it was performed by Jimi Hendrix.

What's the difference between a new song and an old, popular song? If you had heard the soundtrack before you ever watched the show, would it trouble you that you the song was recognizable? Just pretend that Bob Dylan wrote this song for this show then. Does that help?

[GuanoLad]

But don't the cylons originate from our Earth? Isn't that what this season has been revealing?

[Oakminster]

Just pretend that Bob Dylan wrote this song for this show then. Does that help?

Only if Kara Thrace is really Kara Dylan.

[carnivorousplant]

Only if Kara Thrace is really Kara Dylan.

Kara Zimmerman. :)

[Acsenray]

Only if Kara Thrace is really Kara Dylan.

If Bear McCreary had written an original composition, would you be insisting that she be his daughter?

[simster]

I believe there was an interview early on that addressed some of this - IIRC, it basicaly stated that they chose some elements (Hummers, Handguns, etc...) to be more/less our time equivalant for several reasons -

1.) Its a bunch cheaper to use a Hummer where you want a "all terrain wheeled vehicle" instead of trying to create a new fantasictal version of it.

2.) It kept things reasonably grounded - yes, these people have advanced technologies, but fundementally, they are just like "us" - dealing with similar things that we deal with - keeps the sci-fi sci-fi, but allows an audience that usually dislikes sci-fi things they can latch on to.

As for the names of the Gods/Lords of Kobol, whatever - I think the same thing applies - yes, there may very well be a tie to our own history or there may not be - but it still keeps the stories grounded, you dont have casual viewers asking things like - "Who was the goddess of war again, was that thksingling or sebsatcitally?" As much as I like the works of Tolkien, all the "made up" names made it hard to follow - not so much because they were made up, but because many didn't follow names I was familiar with. Ask yourself sometime how we got from "the name that must not be spoken" to YHWH to Yahweh to Jehovah - it keeps the legend/myth/story grounded for the audience.

So, I can accept all of the choices without having to look for anything special - they chose that song because it had some meaning - and that meaning happens to be that Anders was playing it the day the music died.

[Rubystreak]

If Bear McCreary had written an original composition, would you be insisting that she be his daughter?

You do see a distinction between an original composition, with no baggage, and a Bob Dylan song, decades old, with which we all already have associations? The song already exists. Saying Sam Anders wrote it is jarring and takes me out of the BSG reality the way an original song would not.

[Lightray]

But don't the cylons originate from our Earth? Isn't that what this season has been revealing?
Yes. But this season has also revealed that the Cylons had arrived to our Earth ~2000 years before "now" (show-time "now").

Also: podcast (http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/downloads/podcast.php) is up.

[Oakminster]

If Bear McCreary had written an original composition, would you be insisting that she be his daughter?

Of course not. If they'd used an original composition, there's no storyline reason Kara's dad, or Anders, couldn't have written it. Papa Thrace or Anders did not write All Along the Watchtower. Dylan did. Therefore, if the song exists in BSGverse, Dylan and history mostly as we know it should exist as well. This means that the events we're shown have to have occurred at some unknown point after 1967....and that the song remained popular whenever the Cylons found/conquered Earth.

[jormundgondir]

I disagree. "You're dismissed" is specifically a military thing. A civilian would say something more like "We're finished here" or "You can leave now" or "Get out of my office".

I actually thought that was great: my interpretation was "ah so there's some use in having been a school teacher!" It felt like a vice principal coolly sending a bad kid away from the Office.

[Baldwin]

Coulda been worse. He could have used Mr. Roboto....
:DTigh: Domo arigato . . .

Tyrol: Mr. Roboto?

Anders: Domo?

Torry: Domo?

Tigh: What the frak does that mean?

[Baldwin]

Of course not. If they'd used an original composition, there's no storyline reason Kara's dad, or Anders, couldn't have written it. Papa Thrace or Anders did not write All Along the Watchtower. Dylan did. Therefore, if the song exists in BSGverse, Dylan and history mostly as we know it should exist as well. This means that the events we're shown have to have occurred at some unknown point after 1967....and that the song remained popular whenever the Cylons found/conquered Earth.It's almost impossible to make that make sense -- and I've been trying.

We'll probably have to accept the song as a translation from a comparable Cylon ditty, just like we accept the spoken and written language used by the characters in general. (Did the 12 Colonial planets each have their own language, but with everybody also speaking a common language? There should at least be different accents. Too late now, but it would have been cool if they'd come up with consistent accents for the different Colonial worlds, so that when we heard somebody, we'd know where they were from. On the other hand, as Lee Adama was talking about last week, their planets of origin have become irrelevant.)

With the headcount given at the beginning of each episode, I used to wonder if it 30,000-something people would be genetically diverse enough to create a whole new human population -- but then I read that there's evidence our species (or a recent precursor) was once down to just a couple of thousand individuals.

(The survivor count is humans-only, right? Did it go down after Tigh, Tyrol, Tory and Anders discovered they were Cylons?)

[carnivorousplant]

With the headcount given at the beginning of each episode, I used to wonder if it 30,000-something people would be genetically diverse enough to create a whole new human population -- but then I read that there's evidence our species (or a recent precursor) was once down to just a couple of thousand individuals.



Could they preserve technology? Given that they find a habitable planet and get rid of the Cavilcade, I don't believe they could even build a bulldozer to clear the land to build a nuclear power plant to generate the energy for the factory to build semiconductors.

[simster]

Could they preserve technology? Given that they find a habitable planet and get rid of the Cavilcade, I don't believe they could even build a bulldozer to clear the land to build a nuclear power plant to generate the energy for the factory to build semiconductors.

They have plenty of power generating ship enignes - the Cylon's have plenty of technology to share, while they wont immediately be what they were, its not a stretch to think they can rebuild/maintain quite a bit of it.

[Merijeek]

You do see a distinction between an original composition, with no baggage, and a Bob Dylan song, decades old, with which we all already have associations? The song already exists. Saying Sam Anders wrote it is jarring and takes me out of the BSG reality the way an original song would not.

Where did we see that Sam wrote it?

-Joe

[carnivorousplant]

They have plenty of power generating ship enignes - the Cylon's have plenty of technology to share, while they wont immediately be what they were, its not a stretch to think they can rebuild/maintain quite a bit of it.

Can the Cylons make toothpaste? :)

Maybe the Cylons can help them. I've always felt the survivors would degenerate into a bronze age society, hence our Greek gods.

[Acsenray]

With the headcount given at the beginning of each episode, I used to wonder if it 30,000-something people would be genetically diverse enough to create a whole new human population -- but then I read that there's evidence our species (or a recent precursor) was once down to just a couple of thousand individuals.

And I think there are more recent examples of isolated populations beginning with small numbers of individuals. I'm no expert in this area though, and I can't recall any specifics.

You do see a distinction between an original composition, with no baggage, and a Bob Dylan song, decades old, with which we all already have associations? The song already exists. Saying Sam Anders wrote it is jarring and takes me out of the BSG reality the way an original song would not.

It's part of the suspension of disbelief, just the same as it is with having a space-going vessel with Earth-like gravity, just the same as it is with having people in some unknown place and time speaking perfectly idiomatic contemporary English, just the same as it is knowing that you aren't watching an actual Admiral Adama, but an actor named Olmos portraying the role, just the same as it is knowing that most of the music was written by a real person, Bear McCreary, and not a fictional person in the story.

There is no difference between a song that you've heard before and a song that you haven't heard before. In both cases, the song exists in the real world, independent of the events in the story.

Of course not. If they'd used an original composition, there's no storyline reason Kara's dad, or Anders, couldn't have written it.

All fiction is contrary to reality. They can say that Anders wrote it simply by stating the fact. It's the same whether the song was composed by Bob Dylan or Bear McCreary.

Papa Thrace or Anders did not write All Along the Watchtower. Dylan did.

Not if they don't say that Dylan wrote it.

This means that the events we're shown have to have occurred at some unknown point after 1967....and that the song remained popular whenever the Cylons found/conquered Earth.

And if Bear McCreary wrote a new song for use in the series in 2008, then --

Papa Thrace or Anders did not write X. Bear McCreary Did. This means that the evens we're shown have to have occurred at some unknown point after 2008....and that the song remained popular whenever the Cylons found/conquered Earth.

[Critical1]

Rubystreak
you do realize there is literal metric tons of evidence supporting our evolution here on earth and absolutely zero to even suggest that we flew here on space ships.

of course its not meant to be here in our universe.

[Oakminster]

And if Bear McCreary wrote a new song for use in the series in 2008, then --

Papa Thrace or Anders did not write X. Bear McCreary Did. This means that the evens we're shown have to have occurred at some unknown point after 2008....and that the song remained popular whenever the Cylons found/conquered Earth.

No. Bear is comparable to a writer for the show. We all know that anything that happens onscreen is because the writers wrote it, and the director choose various technical means to bring those words to life. We suspend our disbelief to accept that the characters say and feel what they appear to say and feel. The characters do not acknowledge and/or react to the poundy drums or other elements of the score, so those elements don't break the illusion. Certain characters have acknowledged and reacted to All Along the Watchtower. Therefore, that specific element of our world also exists in their world. It needs to be explained in a way that ties in with other elements of the story.

[Acsenray]

And you know what? Bob Dylan gets royalties from NBC Universal for the use of his composition. He's just like a writer for the show.

[carnivorousplant]

And you know what? Bob Dylan gets royalties from NBC Universal for the use of his composition. He's just like a writer for the show.

Would a musician who can explain things to non musicians explain how this Macready person can say that the music used on the show is not All Along the Watchtower?

[Lumpy]

Regarding small populations and genetics: thirty thousand would be at the knife-edge of genetic viability if the population stayed at that size. This has happened in the Pacific where isolated groups of islanders simply didn't have enough room or resources to expand. However it's plenty big for a founders group if succeeding generations can increase; I've seen suggestions that ~1 million might be the minimum size for maintaining a population indefinitely.

We now return to your regularly scheduled thread

[Rubystreak]

Rubystreak
you do realize there is literal metric tons of evidence supporting our evolution here on earth and absolutely zero to even suggest that we flew here on space ships.

of course its not meant to be here in our universe.

No, I had no idea. I thought we flew here in shiny metal cans. Thank god you were here to remind me about evolution.

:rolleyes:

No need for condescension. I assumed that BSG was meant to be in the far future with a shared history with us, evidenced by the renewed worship of the Greek gods. I don't know if that's true or not. It's not clear to me, and I don't think you've got enough evidence to assume you're right and I'm wrong. You certainly don't have any reason to insult my intelligence by reminding me that we didn't fly here on spaceships.

It's part of the suspension of disbelief, just the same as it is with having a space-going vessel with Earth-like gravity, just the same as it is with having people in some unknown place and time speaking perfectly idiomatic contemporary English, just the same as it is knowing that you aren't watching an actual Admiral Adama, but an actor named Olmos portraying the role, just the same as it is knowing that most of the music was written by a real person, Bear McCreary, and not a fictional person in the story.

Ditto to you about condescension. You can argue all you want, but it still bothers me. Using a Bob Dylan song and attributing it to Sam Anders breaks my willing suspension of disbelief in a way that Admiral Adama using a pen and speaking English does not. (I thought Anders was given credit for writing it in the ep where the Final Five talk about their memories of Earth, and Tory said he wrote it for a girl he loved.) There is a real, qualitative difference between using a pen and speaking English, and attributing a well-known song to one of your characters, or removing its authorship from the known author. If it doesn't bother you, that's great. You can't argue someone out of not liking something. I'm not sure if you realize that, but there it is.

[Acsenray]

You can not like anything you want. I'm just telling you that the writers don't owe you an explanation that would make fictional facts consistent with real facts.

[Rubystreak]

You can not like anything you want. I'm just telling you that the writers don't owe you an explanation that would make fictional facts consistent with real facts.

Where did you get the idea that I thought Ron Moore "owed" me anything? He can do whatever he wants, and I can think what I want of his decisions. I think it's stupid, lazy writing if it doesn't have an explanation. I'm sure he doesn't give a damn. But I'm not discussing this with Ron Moore, am I? I'm discussing it on a message board, where we discuss our opinions. That's mine, and it's just as valid as yours, something that doesn't really come across in your posts. That is all.

[Oakminster]

You can not like anything you want. I'm just telling you that the writers don't owe you an explanation that would make fictional facts consistent with real facts.

You holding that opinion does not make it so. You accuse me of fanwanking. You're doing the same thing, in the opposite direction.

[Critical1]

No, I had no idea. I thought we flew here in shiny metal cans. Thank god you were here to remind me about evolution.

:rolleyes:

No need for condescension. I assumed that BSG was meant to be in the far future with a shared history with us, evidenced by the renewed worship of the Greek gods. I don't know if that's true or not. It's not clear to me, and I don't think you've got enough evidence to assume you're right and I'm wrong. You certainly don't have any reason to insult my intelligence by reminding me that we didn't fly here on spaceships.


I wasnt trying to be condescending, although I can see it being read that way. At best this is an alternate reality.

as for their choice in music, tv/movies have been using music to capture or project a mood since they began, using a popular tune is done because of its track record. there is no mystery here why they chose that particular song. I get the feeling you are reading way to much into that choice.

[Rubystreak]

You holding that opinion does not make it so. You accuse me of fanwanking. You're doing the same thing, in the opposite direction.

Especially when it makes you say things like:

There is no difference between a song that you've heard before and a song that you haven't heard before.

..eeeeexcept that one I've heard before because Bob Dylan wrote it in 1967, and one is a song I've never heard because it was expressly written for the purpose of the show, and can be given any meaning the writers wish, since it did not previously have any associations outside the show. Believing that "All Along the Watchtower" is a song written by a Cylon does require suspension of disbelief. It strains mine, it doesn't strain acsenray's. Groovy. None of us knows if it will be addressed or not, so maybe this whole discussion is moot. I hope so.

I wasnt trying to be condescending, although I can see it being read that way. At best this is an alternate reality.

as for their choice in music, tv/movies have been using music to capture or project a mood since they began, using a popular tune is done because of its track record. there is no mystery here why they chose that particular song. I get the feeling you are reading way to much into that choice.

Maybe it's an alternate reality, maybe it'll be explained. We don't know. In TV/movies, usually songs are not reassigned to authors other than their real authors. It's weird. I'm not reading anything into it, it just bugs me, OK?

[Baldwin]

I wonder how many ships in the fleet are capable of landing on an Earth-type planet. We know Colonial One is; can't remember if we saw any other ships on the ground on New Caprica.

[ElvisL1ves]

Raptors and Vipers can land, too.

[Baldwin]

Raptors and Vipers can land, too.Yeah, but I was thinking about the ships with industrial capacity. At least some of the ships definitely look like they're not suitable for entering an atmosphere.

[simster]

Yeah, but I was thinking about the ships with industrial capacity. At least some of the ships definitely look like they're not suitable for entering an atmosphere.

We saw a number of ships on the ground - don't remember the details.

[Lightray]

I wonder how many ships in the fleet are capable of landing on an Earth-type planet. We know Colonial One is; can't remember if we saw any other ships on the ground on New Caprica.
Quite a few are capable of landing. That was the point of Athena going undercover on New Caprica to swipe the launch keys from the Cylons so that the rest of the fleet could escape.

There are also a sizeable number unable to make planetfall -- those were the ships that had been in orbit at New Caprica, and jumped away with Galactica and Pegasus. Presumably they'd include things like the tyllium ship and the botanical cruiser.

[simster]

Quite a few are capable of landing. That was the point of Athena going undercover on New Caprica to swipe the launch keys from the Cylons so that the rest of the fleet could escape.

There are also a sizeable number unable to make planetfall -- those were the ships that had been in orbit at New Caprica, and jumped away with Galactica and Pegasus. Presumably they'd include things like the tyllium ship and the botanical cruiser.

I'm thinking Galactica herself could land - once - and she ain't gonna relaunch if she does.

[Lumpy]

We also saw these big landers that accompanied the raptors entering Earth's atmosphere.

I don't know if Galactica can emergency land or not. She's a huge ship and I don't know if she's designed to take her entire weight on her ventral side. And now she's riddled with stress fractures- if she could land she'd crumple into wreckage.

One thing that muddies the question is that the RTF seemed to be able to hover in Ragnarok's upper atmosphere. But in the great New Caprica bug-out, we clearly saw some ships using thrusters to lift off the ground. So I don't know if any of the ships not designed to land could settle to the ground or not. (It's a sure bet that one ship with the rotating ring can't!)

[Acsenray]

Where did you get the idea that I thought Ron Moore "owed" me anything?

The word "owe" was used by Oakminster.

[AndyPolley]

I'm pretty sure the Final Fivers said that Anders merely sang the song for someone he loved. I don't recall him getting any credit for writing it.

I find the ongoing Watchtower discussion facinating. I'm not ticked off or anything, but I'm on Rubystreak's side on this. By RDM's admission, the song was a deliberate choice that would make us ask questions. Those questions deserve to be addressed and hopefully answered. I can live with it Bob Dylan didn't write the song (or even exist) in the Galactica-verse, but I'm not satisfied with it just being a song choice on the level of McCreary writing an original song for the show. Bob Dylan (his royalities aside) is not a writer for the show. This crosses a line that pens and Hummers and corded phones don't.

Roslin's use of the phrase "Pound of Flesh" in Season 2's "The Captain's Hand" took me out of the show too. I'm going to have to live with the fact that Moore & Co. aren't going to neatly explain a Shakespeare quote in this universe. Especially since it was just one line. Considering the weight of Watchtower and it's value in the overall mythology of the show, I'm hoping for more than that.

BTW, How does Joe's bar work? Does anyone 'pay' for a drink. Does Joe just run stills all day? I'd think that with limited supplies in the fleet, and folks like Kara running around, Joe would be running out of booze on a regular basis. Anyone care to fanwank a story for Joe's bar?

[IvoryTowerDenizen]

Oh, and I don't think Boomer frakked Helo because she wanted to get pregnant or because the writers wanted us to think about her maybe getting pregnant. I think Boomer frakked Helo because of jealousy: Athena succeeded in achieving virtually everything Boomer started out pursuing, but totally lost her chance at getting -- a loving man, the trust of Adama, a child, everything. Boomer is lashing out at, and trying to damage, the things Athena holds precious.

I thin she did it to remove suspicion- she'd have to explain to Helo why she didn't want to... it was easier to frak him and move on.

[billfish678]

BTW, How does Joe's bar work? Does anyone 'pay' for a drink. Does Joe just run stills all day? I'd think that with limited supplies in the fleet, and folks like Kara running around, Joe would be running out of booze on a regular basis. Anyone care to fanwank a story for Joe's bar?

Excessive sewage.

Fermentation.

Profit!

[Corner Case]

So she should kill her first bear any time now...Very nice! Queen of the BSG Frontier

Helo might have succeeded in knocking Boomer up ... Maybe the Cylons don't really have to love back to make it work?Maybe the baby's boot image, made from mommy and daddy, is damaged if love's IRQ is preempted or reassigned?


Does anyone else have shudders after the kidnapping of Hera thinking of the end of the 'V' miniseries? :p

[carnivorousplant]

Does anyone else have shudders after the kidnapping of Hera thinking of the end of the 'V' miniseries? :p

Not until I read your post.
I hate you, now.


:)

[Lightray]

BTW, How does Joe's bar work? Does anyone 'pay' for a drink. Does Joe just run stills all day? I'd think that with limited supplies in the fleet, and folks like Kara running around, Joe would be running out of booze on a regular basis. Anyone care to fanwank a story for Joe's bar?
Wasn't setting up the bar an otherwise-dropped Tyrol plotline from back in Season 3? I know that setting up the still was a Tyrol plotline from back in Season 1.

They have lots of algae now to ferment for rotgut booze. And Saul cleared out all his liquor -- that must've been enough to supply the fleet for a good long while. Even with Kara drinking, too.

[Prox]

How is using "All Along the Watchtower" any different from that Phillip Glass song attributed to Starbuck's father in the Season 2 "Valley of Darkness"? Recognizing that Tigh and co. were reciting Watchtower was one of the most mindfraking moments in the series, and a new song could not come close to having the same impact.

There are many cultural parallels (fashion, literature, Greek gods) between BSG's universe and ours. What is it about Watchtower that's causing such a problem?

Digging through the Battlestar wiki to find the name of the episode with Glass's song, I came across this on Starbuck's dad's page (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Dreilide_Thrace):
The analog for Dreilide Thrace in the Original Series is Chameleon. Chameleons have a third eye called a parietal eye. Kinda cool.

[Prox]

To late to edit, but what's makes it cool is:
So, I googled "Dreilide" and general consensus says it means "third eye." Interesting.

[ElvisL1ves]

Does anyone else have shudders after the kidnapping of Hera thinking of the end of the 'V' miniseries? :pEver since the first mention of hybrid babies, I've been thinking her name would be "Elizabeth Harsesis". It was actually a comedown to find it's just "Hera".

[Quercus]

The Cavilcade will show up, and the show will end with the BaseStar Galactica and the Cavilcade exchanging full-out weapons fire as the show fades to blackI really hope not, if only for the reason that it would be a straight up cribbing of the Sopranos. Funny, I thought that would be a straight up cribbing of Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid

[Baldwin]

Funny, I thought that would be a straight up cribbing of Butch Cassidy and the Sundance KidHow about the end of Cross of Iron? (Maybe we should have a thread about inconclusive and ambiguous movie endings. One of my favorite is The Thing.)

So, three episodes left. Lot of unanswered questions.

[Cervaise]

Roslin's use of the phrase "Pound of Flesh" in Season 2's "The Captain's Hand" took me out of the show too.That didn't bother me until you mentioned it. Hrm.

And I'm the guy who complained when Sisko said "cut to the chase" one time on DS9. Double hrm.