Shouting Matches or worse at work: how common?

[El_Kabong]

I currently work in an office environment with about 15 people on the property, most of them college-educated professional or technical staff. For the past year, I've had a supervisor who has managed to provoke one or more persons at the office into bitter screaming matches with him at least once per month. No physical violence yet, but two fairly good employees have quit (one just yesterday) and three or four others have said they are strongly considering getting out.

A lot of this seems to come from the fact that the guy in question has several mannerisms that seem to drive people absolutely mad: 1) he tends to speak to people in a way that suggests to them that he believes they know nothing about their jobs, even if they've been in their position for years; 2) he routinely and loudly browbeats people who he has an issue with in front of other workers; 3) he tends to barge into other offices like Kramer bursting into Jerry Seinfeld's apartment and begins speaking to someone even if he can see they are on the phone or talking to someone else; 4) on the frequent occasions when a disagreement erupts he will begin talking over the other person, going on and on until the other person either walks away or explodes in rage. Unfortunately, upper management hasn't really come to grips with how corrosive the atmosphere has become here, mainly because they don't have to routinely deal with the supervisor on a personal basis. He does have some organizational skills, and that's good enough, apparently. I'll also mention that although he tends to drive me up the wall as much as anyone else, I've never felt like there was any point in reacting to his baiting behavior, and have mostly managed to remain civil even in disagreement.

My main question is, how common is it to have this sort of constant turmoil in a workplace? I used to work on drilling rigs, and I've seen plenty of anger expressed in that environment, but for the past 15 years I've worked in office settings or at home for this company and one other, and I can't recall ever seeing it this bad.

[freckafree]

I have never worked in such an environment. I've worked in one where the hostility and mutual loathing was almost palpable, but it was never expressed in the way you've described.

Your supervisor's behavior is clearly disruptive and counterproductive. Is there some way to work through HR channels to bring it to the attention of his supervisors?

[Isamu]

I don't know how common it is, but it sounds horrible. Get a voice recorder and tape everything.

[Boyo Jim]

I've never worked in an environment like that. The only time I've ever witnessed it was in fast food joints, watching some employees cream at others. Oddly enough, I saw it often at Popeyes, even in different stores. Seems to be part of their training.

[El_Kabong]

Your supervisor's behavior is clearly disruptive and counterproductive. Is there some way to work through HR channels to bring it to the attention of his supervisors?

Your first sentence expresses, in almost precisely the same words, a point that I have been trying to make within company channels for several months. There may be recourse eventually through HR, but the handicap to this point is that little of his more egregious behavior has been documented. This will have to change. Going through line management seems to be a non-starter unless he gets caught sacrificing chickens or something. His two direct supervisors (up to VP level) are somewhat combative Type As who, while considerably more reasonable to deal with, tend to just see him as a desirably 'tough' manager.

Anyway, early response seems to indicate that this is nowhere near normal, as I suspected. I'll wait for a few others to weigh in.

[Beware of Doug]

I've never worked in an environment like that. The only time I've ever witnessed it was in fast food joints, watching some employees cream at others.The yelling is bad, but that's just disgusting.

Hope they kept it out of the food.

[Cunctator]

It sounds ghastly. I've never experienced anything like that.

I wonder whether the departing employees are making it clear in exit interviews that this particular supervisor is such a bastard?

[Muffin]

1) he tends to speak to people in a way that suggests to them that he believes they know nothing about their jobs, even if they've been in their position for years; 2) he routinely and loudly browbeats people who he has an issue with in front of other workers; 3) he tends to barge into other offices like Kramer bursting into Jerry Seinfeld's apartment and begins speaking to someone even if he can see they are on the phone or talking to someone else; 4) on the frequent occasions when a disagreement erupts he will begin talking over the other person, going on and on until the other person either walks away or explodes in rage.Sooner or later, an employee will quit and then sue for constructive dismissal. The company is at risk by continuing to employ such a manager now that it is well aware of the problem.

[Driver8]

It is not clear whether these 15 people represent most of the company, or just a small division within the company. If the former I suggest you have your resume ready, even if you don't want to leave. It does not sound like a company that will survive. They are at a huge disadvantage over companies whose employees do not have to deal with that nonsense.

[BrassyPhrase]

I work for a company that many here think is the worst of the worst.

But I'll tell you this--that kind of behavior is not allowed or encouraged. And one phone call to the supervisor of the person doing it would be addressed very quickly.

I'm not a Wally apologist--I've had some horrible managers in the past. But no, hell no, and never would I put up with that stuff.

[El_Kabong]

It is not clear whether these 15 people represent most of the company, or just a small division within the company. If the former I suggest you have your resume ready, even if you don't want to leave. It does not sound like a company that will survive. They are at a huge disadvantage over companies whose employees do not have to deal with that nonsense.

It's a district office of a European-based, privately held firm with about 5000 employees worldwide.

[Phlosphr]

He sounds absolutely atrocious and above all unprofessional. I have never worked with such a person, but I am the type of person if I were treated by this individual even once like you describe I would stand up and have a firm yet professional talk with him to make sure he sis not speak to me in that way ever again. I am a human being who does nto need to get treated like that, and if this man was doing it I would quickly and professionally bring it to his attention. If he had the ability to fire me and did so because I stood up to him, I would make it clear the dept. of labor would be hearing from me.

In psychological terms his behavior sounds like patho-adolescence. He never grew up, because had he, he would not trat others the way you describe.

[Harmonious Discord]

I worked the same place as that guy. It took years but he cut his own neck off eventually one knife stroke at a time. He is also prone to do the same thing with management when things don't go his way.

[Lo-Slung Denim]

The Spring after I graduated, while I waited for my Criminal Records Bureau disclosure to come through so I start working in a psychiatric unit, I temped for a small organisation in the public sector. Maybe 12 or 15 employees. I was in an office, on a bank of desks with 3 other people; two women and one man - the man worked part-time. Our boss was over in the corner behind a screen.

One day due a restructuring of the company that didn't affect me as a temp, the boss offered Woman A a promotion above Woman B. A and B were great mates, went to the gym together, ate breakfast together, socialised at weekends, but they fell out over this and it was nasty.

B refused to talk to A. They used to get me to pass messages on to one another. The boss took them in to a room to mediate, and B stormed out shouting and screaming. She threatened to leave if A took the promotion. It went out for weeks.

In the end, A never took the promotion. How mean of B to bully her out of furthering herself!

When my CRB came through and I gave my week's notice, the boss offered me a permanent job. It would pay £17.5k to the £14.5k I was going to. I badly needed the money, but I badly needed my sanity and I said no way in hell.

I have never seen such unprofessional behaviour since that. Never. I left that place four years ago and I am extremely happy I didn't value money over peace of mind.

[Dung Beetle]

About once a year, around here. Once it was two co-workers talking politics, a couple of times it was people who came for parentage testing and seemed to think they were on the Jerry Springer show, and once a couple of doctors(!) made a scene. I wasn’t at work that day, damn it.

[Zsofia]

There's a lot of screaming at my job, but it's between the patrons, not between the staff! (Actually, a patron almost got into a fistfight with me on Wednesday. I could have taken the son of a bitch.)

[emmaliminal]

The single only time I ever heard anyone even raise their voice at my office, it resulted in the en-loudened person being demoted. It was rather a scandal. And she was raising her voice in a closed-door meeting among people at the same level, not at anyone she supervised. I really can't imagine the kind of behavior you describe being permissible once, let alone routinely, especially the browbeating. I wouldn't put up with it.

[Malthus]

Such a thing only happened once in all my years of working in an office.

I work as an associate lawyer in a large law firm. I often work with two partners who are also friends. They each have an administrative assistant who sit side by side outside their offices, which are next to each other.

Assistant A worked for Lawyer X, whose practice was mainly large deals of a sort that did not require much in the way of secretarial work - keeping up the filing and the like - because it dealt mostly in Lawyer X talking on the phone with various people; in contrast, Assistant B worked for Lawyer Y, whose practice consisted of hundreds of little files - requiring endless secretarial work. Physically they were very different. Assistant A was an attractive younger woman - always cheerful and happy. Assistant B was a dour older woman, very much focused on work (at which she was very, very good). Assistant A was blonde, Scandianvian in ethnicity, and her primary duty was to answer the phone and deal with clients - she spoke perfect, lightly accented English; Assistant B was an older Chinese lady, a fairly recent immigrant, who had little client contact (her accent made this difficult) but who was a master at filing, word processing, etc.

The problem was that Assistant B begain to intensely resent Assistant A. To an extent she had a point - she worked a lot harder, was better at it, but got paid the same. But it was more about personality issues. She felt that both lawyers were more friendly with Assistant A (which was I think true) and she felt left out. She took it out in egregious rudeness towards Assistant A, who after a while begain to respond in kind - making for a poisionous atmosphere all around.

Things got bizzare. Assistant B begain to get I think a trifle paranoid that Assistant A was actively messing with her work, deliberately putting stuff in the wrong files when her back was turned (for all I know it may have been true). Assistant B begain to spread rumours that Assistant A was having an affair with Lawyer X (likewise, but not really anyone's business). Assistant A began to spread rumours that Assistant B was crazy. This sort of escalated over weeks ...

The two lawyers got together and decided that the best solution would be for Lawyer Y to move down the hall so the two Assistants would not have to sit next to each other.

Of course moving a whole office is lots of administrative work, which fell mostly on Assistant B. She did not take this as accomodation, but rather as a sort of punishment, adding resentment (at this point both lawyers were aware that HR was demanding that one or both assistants be let go - they had been repeatedly lectured about getting along, behaving professionally, etc. but at this point they hated each other like poision - the move was designed to avoid this, as both lawyers wanted to keep assistants; neither was really able to deal with the situation). The very day the move was to be complete, the two Assistants got into a knock-down, pushing, shoving, hair-pulling, screaming fight. This was the last straw and both were fired. Assistant B attempted to charge Assistant A with assault, claiming she started it by making a crude remark and running her chair backwards to pin Assistant B against the files; the cops came & questioned everyone, but as far as I know it came to nothing.

Honestly if I heard that one had stalked and killed the other, I would not have been very surprised.

[KneadToKnow]

I worked for a heating and plumbing contractor one summer in college, and that's the only place I've ever encountered anything like yelling and screaming at work. One guy, I think his name was Phil, would periodically* just blow up and stomp off the job site, cursing at anyone who crossed his path, claiming he was quitting and going to go fishing. Usually on a Thursday. Monday he'd be back at work.


*I learned later. Seeing it happen in person really freaked me out until I found out it was a semi-common occurrence, which freaked me out even more but in a different way.

[dangermom]

That's incredibly unprofessional, awful behavior. No way should it be tolerated.

The only job I've had that came close was at a large, family-owned fabric store. The owner had just about retired and his daughter had pretty much taken over the place by the time I was there. Every so often she would take someone into her office and scream and rant at them over some minor mistake. It was incredibly horrible, the more so because her office was right behind the main counter and all the customers could hear. I got out of there as fast as I could, as did almost everyone else, so she wasn't much good at hanging on to good employees. To this day, she is the example of unprofessionalism and bad management in my head.

[El_Kabong]

I received a communication today from someone at the head office that indicates a corporate-level smackdown may be coming for the supervisor with poor impulse control. Probably won't know for sure until late next week, however. Regardless, I'll be discussing the need for documenting any future issues of this type with our local HR rep. Thanks to everyone for their comments.

[emmaliminal]

Here's hoping you'll keep us posted, if only for the vicarious frisson!

[El_Kabong]

Here's hoping you'll keep us posted, if only for the vicarious frisson!

You bet!

[madmonk28]

I've had some pretty horrible office jobs, but never anything like that. Usually it's just the passive aggresive crap.

[BaneSidhe]

About once every couple of months, one of the engineers in our office blows his stack at his boss, and usually over stupid shit. He really HATES this woman---in fact he seems to really despise any woman who has a position of authority---and it only got worse a couple months back when he was taken off a permit and given another one. The permit he'd been working on [and from what I was told, totally fucking it up] was given to one of the new engineers and I guess he's doing quite well with it, which pissed this guy off.

Well, I guess in last month's staff meeting, he went bananas over some little trifling thing that he had nothing to do with, and it scared everyone half to death. Of course, what scares people the most is this guy has PTSD big time, and is just waiting for him to explode.

Of course, Upper Management did nothing. That's state gubment for you folks.

[ivylass]

I have worked at my job for eleven years. I think I have overheard one or two screaming matches, max.

Someone needs to get the boss involved yesterday. This is unacceptable behavior and is costing your company good people.

[Stratocaster]

Yeesh. That would NEVER be tolerated where I work, since you asked. Someone who routinely enrages others in the manner you describe is a world-class, unprofessional prick. I hope the smackdown is decisive.

[RickJay]

About once every couple of months, one of the engineers in our office blows his stack at his boss, and usually over stupid shit. He really HATES this woman---in fact he seems to really despise any woman who has a position of authority---and it only got worse a couple months back when he was taken off a permit and given another one.
In my experience, a remarkably high percentage of big time workplace blowups are guys who despise women freaking out when one seems threatening to his status.

Anyway, it doesn't happen at my current workplace. If someone - of any rank - went apeshit, they might be given one warning, and it would be the sort of warning that got written up and all that. Maybe - to be honest I suspect you'd get a package and an invitation not to allow the door to strike your posterior during your exit.

[Kalhoun]

Hostile work environment. Tell the boss that if he doesn't fix it, you will. Fuck people like that. There are laws against this kind of thing. Your situation may be actionable, but you'd need to contact a lawyer to find out for sure.

Does anyone ever stand up to this asshole?

[Lucky 13]

A few months ago, a worker (whom I will call Myrtle) was transferred to the cubicle next to mine. Now, there are a lot of people I work with who have unusual habits, myself included, but Myrtle was more unusual than most. She didn't seem to do much of anything - mostly she sat at her desk and made collages which she hung on the inside and outside of her cubicle walls. She also had a stuffed animal that she constantly moved around, sometimes atop the filing cabinet, other times on the cubicle wall adjoining mine. Myrtle did not like anyone looking her in the eye and would say so. At one point, she accused the worker in the cubicle across from her of giving her dirty looks even though the lady in question had not even glanced her way. She also threatened our unit clerk. She barely spoke to me, which I considered a good thing. When she did, I was careful to be as polite to her as possible.
One day, I heard Myrtle had a confrontation with some guy (worker or customer, I never found out which) and slapped him on the face. I was very careful not to talk to her after that for fear of setting her off. A few days later, I missed work. When I returned, Myrtle wasn't there. It seems the day before, she had had a meltdown. She had been talking to herself, mostly threats about other people in her ethnic group. She walked into the lunchroom, slammed the door, and shouted about how people of other nationalities in her ethnic group should die. Apparently, it was bad enough that the mental health people had to be called to escort her out - she had a mental illness which required medication, which she had not been taking IIRC. She never did come back for her stuff. When we emptied her cubicle out to make room for another employee, we found piles of office supplies she had been hoarding, which were originally issued for all of us to share.

[fuffle]

In my experience, this sort thing, while not common, is not exactly uncommon. My last boss used to storm into my office with no warning and start yelling about how I'm incompetent and why can't I get my job done right. The problem would always turn out to be something like she couldn't find a file because I was working on a particular project like she asked me to (but forgot). Never apologized. She only started backing down when, after about three years of this, I started getting back in her face. I went to HR, who said "there's no rule against being a bad supervisor."

My sweetie has a boss for years who owned the company and so did whatever he damn well pleased. I think boss really thrived on hostility and loved him some conflict. Once boss provoked a screaming argument with said sweetie and it escalated to the point where boss said, "the only reason you don't reach across this desk right now and deck me is because you're a fucking pussy."

Lots of my friends have similar stories to report. "Hostile work environment" is a joke. IMHO.

[New Beginning]

I went to HR, who said "there's no rule against being a bad supervisor."

This attitude boggles my mind. What sort of company was it? Why would people at a company not care if the employees weren't doing their jobs well (and treating each other well)?

[fuffle]

It was a state university. They assured me that, had boss insulted me or treated me poorly on the basis of my being part of a protected class, they would be all over that. They also pointed out that "hostile work environment" applies ONLY to issues regarding protected class.

As to why they don't care, I asked something similar, and they said, "we don't like to get involved in disputes between employees."

[Kyla]

I worked for a mortgage brokerage when I was 22 and had a coworker like that. First of all, no one except me, the other processor, and our boss actually worked for the company. All of the brokers were technically self-employed. It was also an extremely casual office (people wore shorts and flip flops to work). The resulting atmosphere was usually lively and fun, but if someone got out of hand, there wasn't a lot to control them.

This one broker, a guy named Elliot, was a total asshole. First of all, he was Jewish and then he found out I was Jewish, so he thought we were kindred spirits or something and would often share his views on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict - which I found repugnant - with me. His brusque and rude manner annoyed everyone.

The kicker was when we had our Christmas party. We could invite a guest, which was assumed to be an SO, but I didn't have one, so I invited my best friend to come along. (In retrospect this is kind of weird, but I had never been to an office Christmas party before and it seemed like a good idea at the time.) Elliot - who was well into his forties, and did I mention he was an asshole? - took a shine to her and hit on her the whole time. She finally just brushed him off and started ignoring his advances.

On Monday, he came into the office, RAGING at the rudeness of my friend. Apparently, she had no right to be there. And she had ignored him! This little rant ended up with him getting in a screaming fight with the boss.

I worked there a couple more months, during which he refused to speak with me (yay!). I heard after I left the job that he was eventually fired - which, in a company where everyone is officially self-employed, is a pretty impressive feat.

[Hockey Monkey]

I work in the car business. There are shouting matches between salespeople and salespeople/managers all. the. time.

[Beware of Doug]

This attitude boggles my mind. What sort of company was it? Why would people at a company not care if the employees weren't doing their jobs well (and treating each other well)?If the employees were supervisors.

Can you picture any HR person, anywhere, saying "There's no rule against being a bad employee"? Hell no! They'd find a rule.

Moral: supervisors can get away with shit the rank & file never could. At this company and, I'm sure, thousands of others.

[rocking chair]

I received a communication today from someone at the head office that indicates a corporate-level smackdown may be coming for the supervisor with poor impulse control. Probably won't know for sure until late next week, however. Regardless, I'll be discussing the need for documenting any future issues of this type with our local HR rep. Thanks to everyone for their comments.

anyone in the office have a video phone? or could y'all get a disposable and get a nice video for the hr people?

[DanBlather]

If the employees were supervisors.

Can you picture any HR person, anywhere, saying "There's no rule against being a bad employee"? Hell no! They'd find a rule.

Moral: supervisors can get away with shit the rank & file never could. At this company and, I'm sure, thousands of others.If you think "supervisors" aren't "rank-and-file" you must a pretty lowly position. In a company like that chances are the "supervisors" (i.e., people we can pay 10% more and then not pay overtime) are being treated even worse.

[Voyager]

If the employees were supervisors.

Can you picture any HR person, anywhere, saying "There's no rule against being a bad employee"? Hell no! They'd find a rule.

Moral: supervisors can get away with shit the rank & file never could. At this company and, I'm sure, thousands of others.

I trust you've never been a supervisor. In my experience, supervisors are held to higher standards than non-supervisors in general.

[Voyager]

I've had some reasonably psycho managers, but they were psycho in quieter ways. I'm not sure if I remember any screaming fits. I have dealt with highly agitated people once or twice, but they were screaming to me, not at me, and about other people. It's very unprofessional.

[Jodi]

Kind of a tangent, but by coincidence, we had someone absolutely lose their shit at work yesterday and storm out. Her supervisor was out for a couple days, so another supervisor (whom she did not happen to like) was asking her if a list of tasks left for her had been accomplished, and she had an absolute meltdown, I mean shrieking and swearing loudly enough to get other people (including me) out of their offices. She informed us, at some volume, that she hates this fucking place and she invites us to all fuck ourselves, etc. The she picked up her two pictures of her son, her coat and purse, and marched out, screaming the whole way.

The woman she was screaming at was completely floored. The woman had worked there almost two years, and in five minutes she kissed her reference goodbye. In my professional life, I've never seen anything like it.

[Icarus]

There is actually a book about this:

The No Asshole Rule (http://www.amazon.com/Asshole-Rule-Civilized-Workplace-Surviving/dp/0446526568/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1238294806&sr=8-1)

From Publishers Weekly
"This meticulously researched book, which grew from a much buzzed-about article in the Harvard Business Review, puts into plain language an undeniable fact: the modern workplace is beset with assholes. Sutton (Weird Ideas that Work), a professor of management science at Stanford University, argues that assholes—those who deliberately make co-workers feel bad about themselves and who focus their aggression on the less powerful—poison the work environment, decrease productivity, induce qualified employees to quit and therefore are detrimental to businesses, regardless of their individual effectiveness. He also makes the solution plain: they have to go."

[Scissorjack]

The only time I've ever witnessed it was in fast food joints, watching some employees cream at others.

Was that every day, or only on bukkake Fridays?

[Katriona]

It's a district office of a European-based, privately held firm with about 5000 employees worldwide.

I was starting to wonder if it was an old boss of mine, but it was a small company of 10-15 people, and as he was the owner, there was no getting rid of him.

[Beware of Doug]

DanBlather and Voyager: Forgive my confusing managers (probably thw word I wanted) with supervisors. (Not that it has much relevance to the topic at hand.)

I agree either ought to be held to higher standards of conduct, but if you've read enough of this type discussion, you'll understand they aren't. Insisting otherwise seems willfully to overlook the problem.