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Lacunae Quell
03-29-2009, 02:47 AM
before i rant, and yes, there will be ranting, i would first like to thank God for leading me to this website because it has been far too long since i last posted in a forum.

I will get to the topic of this thread after the introduction... i do want to talk about who killed Jesus... but i must go over some other things first...

if you would like to skip the introduction and get straight to the topic (although i deeply implore you to read ALL of the introduction), press CTRL+F and type (or copy and paste) "Get to the Point" in the search box and... well... that will get you to the point.

...one last note before the introduction... these are simply the things i have chosen to believe. if you have not made the choice to believe some or all of the things i believe, or you have chosen NOT to believe anything pertaining, that is YOUR choice. it will not make me think any less of you as a human and i want to be your friend all the same. i like people. i love people. even people i don't know. yes, just because they're people. just because they're another human life and i should love them. i love how there are over 6 billion UNIQUELY INDIVIDUAL human lives. it amazes me. i believe while there are some people who are horrible people, there isn't any reason not to love them. i might not like what you do, but i know i may do things that you don't like. the point is i want to respect a human life, even if it doesn't deserve respect, because i know my life doesn't deserve respect... but some horrible people have turned into loving and caring people and vice versa. i look back at things in my past and see a horrible person... but i know that i have made the choice to never do those things again. there are things in my life, as of this moment, that in the future i will look back on as horrible things i will never do again (such as smoking cigarettes... such a cliché, i know).

random interesting fact... saying something is a cliché is cliché.

...that accented 'e' brings me great joy. ALT+0233 for anyone interested.



p.s. i quote the Bible. i find it very quotable. i am not trying to preach. i am typing the way i perceive reality. call me crazy but... am i not allowed to perceive reality the way i choose? i don't desire to harm anyone. live and let live.



...and now it's time for the...



Introduction:

i must warn you before you read any further... i type long posts (i'm sure you've noticed by now if you've read this far). i would constantly be criticized by people in the last forums i posted in because of the length of my posts (partly the reason i left that forum and have had nothing to do with forums until now). if you do not like to read, if i begin to offend you, or if you just don't find what i'm typing interesting, please stop reading immediately and please, please, PLEASE don't complain about the length of my posts. you do not have to read this if you do not want to... and from personal observation, if you complain about the length of a post, people will either worship you and follow your lead or they will think you are lazy and ignorant and not desiring to read the thoughts, beliefs, or opinions of another human being. Criticizing the length of my posts does not discourage me. it only irritates me. i have a lot on my mind and it is very satisfying and soothing for me to type. As i have told many other people... i do not type my posts to please you. i type my posts for my own pleasure and for the pleasure of those who enjoy reading what i post. some will find it hard to believe that people could possibly enjoy reading what i type... but i have had positive feedback as well as negative... i like both.


if you have any questions about the things i type, or would like to intelligibly debate something i have typed... please... i love a challenge. know this... i am stubborn... and until i choose to change the way i think or believe, i will continue to think and believe the things i do.

i am not stupid... but i can be VERY foolish.

i like to debate with other humans. it brings me great joy. i like to type. this also brings me great joy. i find it much easier to type my thoughts than to speak them. i do not have a "backspace" for my mouth. i like being able to take my time with what i'm trying to convey to others. i tend to overuse the ellipsis... but as strange as it may sound, the ellipsis brings me great joy... don't ask...

...

i believe God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit ARE. i believe Those three entities work together as One and as One are the highest of all deities, entities, powers, principalities, spirits, gods, and so forth and so on, etc., etc.. i do not just believe. i know, as truth, that They exist. However, i am not a traditional Christian. i was raised Baptist, went to a Baptist school, was transferred to a Mennonite school, have been to churches of many different religions (Catholic, Pentecostal, Mennonite, CoC, Baptist, Lutheran, Methodist, and non-denominational, just to name the ones i can think of). i believe some religions are closer to the truth than others, but all religions have truths, and no religion is the absolute truth. i am not a religious person but i am very spiritual. i strongly believe that the Book of Mormon and the Qur'an are the Words of God as well as the Holy Bible. i believe the Holy Bible has been corrupted over time by evil and wicked men, but i believe the way we have the Holy Bible is the way God wants us to have it. It is filled with many truths. Bible simply means 'a collection of books'. So quite literally, the Holy Bible is a collection of books intended to make one holy and godly. "Make every effort to be holy... without holiness, no one will see the Lord"--Hebrews 12:14. Holy means 'to be set apart', amongst other definitions. When Holy is used to describe God, it means 'flawless' or 'perfect'. When holy is used to describe one's actions or lifestyle, it means 'separated' or 'set apart from'. therefore, those who are attempting to be holy for God Almighty take it upon themselves to do all they can to separate themselves from the things that will separate them from having an intimate (not sexually intimate, mind you) relationship with God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit.

i am not offended by "cuss" words. to me they are just words. i use them, but try to do so when i'm alone or with people who aren't offended by them. the ultimate curse would be "God Damn", because you are requesting God to damn something, and that's a pretty hefty curse... i try not to say that but sometimes i do say it. i think it more than i say it. i do find myself using too many foul words and only try to use them tastefully or for emphasis.

i am not perfect, nor will i ever claim to be. i do not think i am better than anyone, nor do i think anyone is better than me. i believe i have a better relationship with God than some people and i believe that some people have a better relationship with God than i do. i believe God desires a relationship with all men who desire a relationship with Him. i strive to be holy, but often fall short of my goals and God's expectations. i believe i will overcome the things in my life that i feel separate me from a perfect relationship with God, but no one can have a perfect relationship with God until after God's judgment of mankind. i desire to be holy and i want to do what is right in the eyes of God for His glory, and nothing more. He has promised me a reward and if all i have to do is believe and practice what i believe, then, by golly... i want to believe. The promise of Eternal Life is enough to make me want to believe. i love life. it's beautiful... and if i can have a perfect life for all eternity, i want it... and because it is promised to me, i will have it.

When i say "man" or "mankind", unless i note otherwise, i am referring to both men and women alike.

i do not judge people. i judge their actions and i have every right to do so. It is my duty to protect myself from harmful influences that others can have upon me, and it is not wrong to judge people in that sense, but i should be able to control myself to the point where i don't let what others do influence me. God alone is the judge of a man's immortal soul, and God alone has the power to give life and to take it, eternally speaking. i will not point my finger at anyone and say "you're going to burn in Hell". That is not my position or decision to make. That is up to the individual and ultimately God. Those who have put their faith in Jesus Christ and those who practice living the life of love and holiness Jesus taught us to live are given a free pass into Heaven, regardless. "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved"--Romans 10:9. yes, it is that simple... if you believe. although you must PRACTICE what you PREACH. "Faith without works is DEAD"--James 2:20 and "You will know them by their fruits"--Matthew 7:16

Through my personal life experiences, and through the evidences that i have gathered through my own free will of thoughts and judgments, as well as the written and/or spoken thoughts of others from past to present, i have come to the conclusion that there CANNOT not be God. God is Love. i have also come to the conclusion that God, being Love, would not create a world and allow so many bad things to happen without a plan of Salvation. i have chosen to follow His plan of Salvation, which is faith that He sent mankind a redeemer, Jesus the Christ, born of the virgin Mary, and raised and fathered by Joseph. This faith also believes as truth that Jesus lived a sinless life, something no other man had done before or would do after... EVER. Jesus did absolutely NOTHING wrong in the eyes of God. Jesus was found without blemish in the eyes of God. Because Jesus accomplished living a sinless life for the glory of God the Father, when Jesus died, and on the third day after He was buried, was resurrected from death through the power of God, Jesus conquered Death and Hell, and became as God, but did not take the throne of God. In Genesis 41:40, the Pharaoh says to Joseph "Thou shalt be over my house, and according unto thy word shall all my people be ruled: only in the throne will I be greater than thou". This is the best verse to describe the rule of Jesus. Jesus sits at the right hand of God. Jesus never outright claimed to be God. Jesus said "I and the Father are One". This is how God and Jesus (and Holy Spirit) are One. The Three work together as One.

These are the things i truly believe, without doubt. Most everything else i believe can change given the right facts or right amount time... but through the will of God, i cannot change my mind about the Holy Trinity. Through His love, mercy, grace and forgiveness i will forever believe in the Holy Trinity, and i will forever believe that They rule supreme, and there is NO power greater than God.

i believe creation took billions of years and i believe evolution was a process of creation. i DO NOT believe man evolved directly from ape, or any sort of animal. Man was created of the Earth.

i believe Heaven and Hell are eternal rewards, and will be given to each soul after the Day of Judgment, which will be the day God completely separates evil from good for all eternity, and each will continue their own separate way for all time.

i believe in symbolism and i believe it is a powerful tool.

with 'nuff said... i will now get to the topic of this thread. Who killed Jesus? i read the article of the same topic... and i found it rather interesting and accurate. It brought to mind a sermon i once listened to and i wanted to share it with those who have read or possibly will read, and maybe even those who inspired and wrote the "Who Killed Jesus" article.

(This actually won't be as long as my introduction, but i felt the insatiable need to type what i believe so those who read can know me on a more personal basis)


!?...Get to the Point...?!


Who Killed Jesus?

1. I killed Jesus, because He died for MY sins.
2. You Killed Jesus, because He died for YOUR sins (whether you believe or not).
3. The Jews killed Jesus, because they asked for it.
4. The Romans killed Jesus, because they let it happen.
5. Judas killed Jesus, because he betrayed Him.
6. Pilate killed Jesus, because he condemned Him.
7. God killed Jesus, because He sent Jesus to die for the sins of mankind.

...that is the gist of the pastor's sermon.

however, i honestly cannot remember if i heard this from that pastor... but...!

8. No one killed Jesus.

Jesus laid down His own life. No one took Jesus' life from Him. Jesus GAVE His life for ALL of mankind. Jesus knew what God wanted and what prophecy spoke of the Messiah. Jesus was commanded by God to live a sinless life and to die, sinless, for the sins of ALL men. Jesus lived His life for that moment... not to be killed mercilessly... but to freely offer His own perfect life in exchange for the imperfect lives of EACH and EVERY single man who ever had lived, who was living, and who would live.

John 3:16--"For God so loved the world that He GAVE His only begotten Son...".

John 15:13--"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man LAY DOWN his life for his friends".

Romans 5:8--"God demonstrates His own love... that while we were still sinners, Christ died FOR us".

Romans 5:10--"For if when we were ENEMIES of God we were reconciled to Him through the death of His Son...".

I John 3:16--"By this we know love, because He LAID DOWN HIS LIFE for us".

I John 4:8--"...God is love"


well... that's that. i'm sure i'll be browsing through the message boards and jumping into conversations at some point and time... and i'm sure eventually i'll create another thread... but i hope for the time being this has interested and informed anyone who reads this... whether you believe in these things or not... i hope this thread has tickled your imagination and/or provoked some thought.




<3, 2, & xXxXx



-LQ

Argent Towers
03-29-2009, 02:51 AM
Give up...nobody here cares about this. You're wasting your time.

DMC
03-29-2009, 03:00 AM
Lacunas Quell, I can't tell if this is a debate or if it's simply witnessing. While both are perfectly acceptable in this forum, it is nice to know which of those is the intention, before deciding whether to respond.

Care to fill us in?

MOIDALIZE
03-29-2009, 03:05 AM
9. Mel Gibson killed Jesus, in order to generate mad box office receipts by depicting His death in excruciatingly graphic detail.

Lacunae Quell
03-29-2009, 03:38 AM
this is why i encourage people to take the excruciating time to read ALL of my post. not just skim through it...

Give up...nobody here cares about this. You're wasting your time.

Dear Mr/Mrs/Ms Towers,

if you had read my post i believe you would have noticed that i made it perfectly clear the only reason i am typing said post is for my own personal satisfaction. this was not typed for you.

...and fyi... some people do care. please do not tell me no one cares. what you have said is criticism, and while i can tolerate criticism, i find what you said to be no different than calling someone a liar. therefore i find your reply pointless... and i don't care what you have to say if you're going to spit out one-liners like that.

I can't tell if this is a debate or if it's simply witnessing. While both are perfectly acceptable in this forum, it is nice to know which of those is the intention, before deciding whether to respond.

Care to fill us in?

my intentions are simply to type my thoughts. if you would like to debate these things with me, please feel free to do so. i was commanded to be a witness... and even though i don't go out on the streets and annoy people with gospel tracts, i feel i should still be a witness to the things that i believe to be true, and that's why i annoy people in online forums. i really don't try to annoy anyone, although i know for a fact i do annoy some... but i try to make my intentions clear so they don't have to feel like i'm attacking or judging anyone or telling someone they are going to hell. i truly believe i have eternal life through Jesus Christ... and it's my duty as a Christian to do what i can to get the word out that eternal life is granted to anyone who chooses to believe and who lives a life of love. my intentions aren't to witness... but to be a witness.

i want people to know it's ok to believe these things and it's ok if you don't (the Bible says to choose a side, and not be in the middle... God hates those who are lukewarm more than those who hate Him--Revelation 3:15-16). it's getting to a point in this time and age of our world where Christians are treated like they were when they were persecuted by the Romans, but people still need to know that there is a loving Creator who has prepared an eternal life, and all you have to do is believe. if you do not want to believe, i am not forcing it on you. you are free to make your own choices and decisions, but remember this (and this is science)... For every action there is a reaction. ...and for those who believe in Heaven, the more the merrier. the more people who choose to believe in the Love of God and practice it the happier they will be.

i think the absolute main point of this post was because i wanted people to get to know me so maybe i can get to know people. so i want to be up front and honest with anyone who may read this i like making online friends (and enemies, although i prefer friends). i just want anyone who reads this to know that while i believe in God, and believe in Heaven, and believe i'm going... i am not perfect as i am. i'm still a sinner and will be until the day i die... but when i die i know my journey will not end... and it's comforting to know that i believe my immortal soul is in the hands of not only God of the universe... but the God of Love. the God who IS Love.

Lacunae Quell
03-29-2009, 03:40 AM
9. Mel Gibson killed Jesus, in order to generate mad box office receipts by depicting His death in excruciatingly graphic detail.

haha. that's great.

sorry... this is probably considered an inappropriate post... but i had to give him/her credit for that one.

casdave
03-29-2009, 03:40 AM
To use a borrowed phrase from 'The Angelic Upstarts'

Who Killed Jesus?
Did you kill Jesus?
Who killed Jesus Christ?
Who killed Jesus
Did you kill Jesus
Who killed Jesus
POLICE KILLED JESUS CHRIST!!


MUUUUURRRRRRDDERRRRRRRRRR




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqbsW5hE8v8

Sage Rat
03-29-2009, 03:44 AM
A few points:

1) The first letter of a sentence is capitalized.
2) The letter 'i' is capitalized when you are using it as the personal pronoun.
3) Less sugar on your cereal.
4) Presuming any intelligence on Jesus' part, dying at the time he did seems to have assured the world that his word would never directly make it to text, so that seems rather poor judgement. Instead, his word came to us in majority--theoretically--via Paul, who we have to assume learned everything Jesus would have wanted written when he was visited by the resurrected Jesus. Of course the Pauline tradition is largely to blame (even if Paul himself is not) for the persecution of the Jews all the way up to and including the WWII. This seems to lend particular credence to the idea that God and Jesus believed the Jewish people to be to blame.

But in real world terms, Jesus was most likely a cult leader of the same vein as David Koresh and really everyone in the general vicinity except for his followers was most likely more than happy to have him offed. In the sense that one is to be blamed for what one brought on himself, I'd have to agree that Jesus killed himself.

Argent Towers
03-29-2009, 03:47 AM
My intentions are simply to type my thoughts. This post is for my own personal satisfaction, not for you. Nobody here is going to accept Jesus based on the testimony of someone who can't be bothered to hit the Shift key at the beginning of the sentence. If the OP feels called to spread his religion, he seriously needs to work on writing more skillfully. (Hint - you can accomplish more with brevity than with lengthy rambling.)

Der Trihs
03-29-2009, 03:49 AM
Who Killed Jesus? Tribune Mustard . . . in the Temple . . . with a gladius ?

Grumman
03-29-2009, 04:01 AM
You could have just written this:
Jesus GAVE His life for ALL of mankind.
and saved yourself thousands of words.

I still disagree, though.

Lacunae Quell
03-29-2009, 04:20 AM
A few points:

1) The first letter of a sentence is capitalized.
2) The letter 'i' is capitalized when you are using it as the personal pronoun.
3) Less sugar on your cereal.
4) Presuming any intelligence on Jesus' part, dying at the time he did seems to have assured the world that his word would never directly make it to text, so that seems rather poor judgement. Instead, his word came to us in majority--theoretically--via Paul, who we have to assume learned everything Jesus would have wanted written when he was visited by the resurrected Jesus. Of course the Pauline tradition is largely to blame (even if Paul himself is not) for the persecution of the Jews all the way up to and including the WWII. This seems to lend particular credence to the idea that God and Jesus believed the Jewish people to be to blame.

But in real world terms, Jesus was most likely a cult leader of the same vein as David Koresh and really everyone in the general vicinity except for his followers was most likely more than happy to have him offed. In the sense that one is to be blamed for what one brought on himself, I'd have to agree that Jesus killed himself.

1.) i realize this. however i did not realize i was going to be graded on the way i choose to type. If it would please you, I will start doing things you're way... if i actually cared. please don't treat me like a child. if this was for school or was job related... there would be perfect grammar and NO ellipses. ...well... very limited use...

2.) I know(that one was for you). i just choose not to capitalize it.

3.) i bet you couldn't even tell me the last time i ate cereal. although the last time i did eat cereal it was Golden Grahams crumbled on top of Snickers ice cream. it was really good.

4.) Jesus' timing was perfect. who are you? Father Time? if you know how things should happen then maybe you should control time. not only can the word of God enlighten and make holy, it can also corrupt. Not everyone understands what God says. Taken from wikianswers... "Hitler's references to providence and God and the ritualistic pageantry of Nazism were more than likely pagan than Christian". and also taken from wikianswers is a youth hymn that was sung... it went a little something like this...

We follow not Christ, but Horst Wessel,

Away with incense and Holy Water,

The Church can go hang for all we care,

The Swastika brings salvation on Earth.

a couple more quotes from wikianswers...

"Although Hitler referred to Christ as a 'fighter', this is in line with the view of the 'German Christians' of Christ as a 'warrior' (!). This is completely out of step with Christian teachings. To cap it all, Hitler and his movement proclaimed that 'might is right'. I don't see any case for regarding him as having espoused Christian beliefs. Odd scraps of some vague belief in 'higher forces' is at best residual Christianity - or superstition".

and...

"The exact religion of Hitler, only Hitler will know. As far as his public religion is concerned: " I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator." - Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 2. Hitler said it again at a Nazi Christmas celebration in 1926: "Christ was the greatest early fighter in the battle against the world enemy, the Jews ... The work that Christ started but could not finish, I -- Adolf Hitler -- will conclude."

Hitler seems rather confused about the message of Christ. Christ came to conquer death, and Christians do not believe that their Lord failed at His task. Christ also came to be an example of love.


what is something that happens in a lot of cults? they end with mass death. Koresh's camp went down fighting... they were attempting to kill people. how is this Christlike? how many people did Jesus' disciples kill? and when "...one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear"--Matt.26:51... what did Jesus say about that? "Then said Jesus unto him, Put up thy sword ... for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels to defend me?"--Matt.26:52-53. then what did Jesus do? "And he touched his ear, and healed him"--Luke 22:51. Jesus was a lover not a fighter. Jesus wanted to help people. Jesus didn't come in this world to condemn, but to give the gift of eternal life.

I admit, there are three perfectly acceptable ways for a person to view Jesus Christ. CS Lewis said Jesus was either a "Liar, Lunatic, or Lord". I have chosen to believe He is Lord... i can find no reason to believe He was a liar or a lunatic.

Lacunae Quell
03-29-2009, 04:35 AM
My intentions are simply to type my thoughts. This post is for my own personal satisfaction, not for you. Nobody here is going to accept Jesus based on the testimony of someone who can't be bothered to hit the Shift key at the beginning of the sentence. If the OP feels called to spread his religion, he seriously needs to work on writing more skillfully. (Hint - you can accomplish more with brevity than with lengthy rambling.)

i bet Shakespeare heard that one a lot.

perhaps you could be right... in the mouth of fools is a multitude of words... then again... i'm not using my mouth to type. if idle hands are the Devil's playground, i guess it's good i'm keeping my hands busy.

I... ENJOY... TYPING.

I... DO NOT... CARE... IF MY... POSTS... ARE LONG WINDED.

PLEASE... GET OFF... OF... I... T.

i never attacked you. i don't see why you find it necessary to attack me.

...and you know what else? if people are seriously going to judge my testimony on the way i choose to type my sentences and use punctuation and grammar... then so be it. that's one of the most ignorant statements i've heard from anyone in quite sometime. so i'm a lazy typist. it's not like this is going to be published and marketed and make me a million dollars. i capitalize proper nouns... except 'I'... but i like the way a lowercase 'i' looks. it's more me than I is.

so... efF U!

iF i WanTeD to TYpE lIkE ThiS i WouLD Do Ii AlL tHe tiMe aND tHeRE IS nOThIng YoU cOUlD dO ABoUt iT.

if you haven't noticed... i treat my posts like entertainment. i'm not just trying to converse or debate or argue or witness. i like to spice things up. i like to get a lot of details in at once. i like to add dry humor. i like the way i type and use words and i am satisfied with it.

Argent Towers
03-29-2009, 04:46 AM
OK, if you want to write like you don't give a shit, then go to another board where the people are idiots. Here, you're going to be expected to type properly and to have concise arguments instead of just ranting and rambling. Also, I don't think you have a very good understanding of what "dry humor" is.

Weston
03-29-2009, 05:07 AM
I... ENJOY... TYPING.

I... DO NOT... CARE... IF MY... POSTS... ARE LONG WINDED.

PLEASE... GET OFF... OF... I... T.



Look, listen. You're obviously making a case for something, right? I mean, that's why you posted your unreadable screed on a message board rather than your own personal blog. You want to persuade people. Well, I can tell you that you'll never, ever, persuade anyone of anything if you keep posting the way you're doing.

Fact is, inattention to spelling, grammar, and capitalisation, in a written medium, are clear indications that the author is either stupid or crazy. Or both. Now, I don't know you. You may be a genius. All I can tell is that you're coming across very differently. I mean, imagine if you were in a bookshop and you picked up a book full of huge paragraphs with massive run-on sentences and virtually no capitalisation. You'd probably put it straight back without getting to the end of the first page. And the fact is that you'd likely be right to do so because it probably would have been written by someone stupid, or crazy. Or both.

Bottom line: If you don't care enough to format your posts properly, no-one else will care enough to read them. And that'll be your fault, not anybody else's. And considering we're on a message board, that rather defeats the object of you being here. If you just love typing so much then get a blog. Hell, just open up an MSWord document and go nuts. I don't care. Just please don't post here until you can be bothered to make your posts fit to read. At the end of the day, it's just the courteous thing to do.

Der Trihs
03-29-2009, 06:57 AM
so... efF U!

iF i WanTeD to TYpE lIkE ThiS i WouLD Do Ii AlL tHe tiMe aND tHeRE IS nOThIng YoU cOUlD dO ABoUt iT.Actually, this board has an ignore function, so people CAN do something about it if they choose.

kanicbird
03-29-2009, 07:01 AM
I don't recall the scriptures saying He was actually killed, but He died as His work was finished. A soldier was assigned a task of delivering a death blow, but Jesus already left. It is true that the cross would eventually cause death, but for that matter being conceived and born would eventually lead to death also (with some notiable exceptions, Enoch, Elijha).

NineToTheSky
03-29-2009, 07:12 AM
I don't recall the scriptures saying He was actually killed, but He died as His work was finished. A soldier was assigned a task of delivering a death blow, but Jesus already left. It is true that the cross would eventually cause death, but for that matter being conceived and born would eventually lead to death also.

I think it was Benjamin Franklin who said 'In this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes', but I think a distinction should be drawn between the certainty of eventual death, and the actual instigator who caused the imminent death.

By your beliefs, I would have thought it was the sins of mankind that did for him. But, perhaps, God is responsible for our sins, so all roads lead to, and from, the mighty one.

glee
03-29-2009, 07:46 AM
Welcome to the StraightDope. :)

Here you will find a well-educated group of posters with a great deal of knowledge between them. (Have a look at various posts to see this.)

As others have said, all we know about you is what you type and how you type it.
So when you ramble, make unsupported assertions, fail to proof-read your posts and treat us like we are a bunch of fools who need to lectured ... then you should not be surprised we don't take you or your 'arguments' seriously. :smack:

Let's have a look at your initial post:

before i rant, and yes, there will be ranting, i would first like to thank God for leading me to this website because it has been far too long since i last posted in a forum.


God did a poor job in leading you here and not warning you about ranting. We like an informed discussion. Our motto is 'Fighting ignorance"!


I will get to the topic of this thread after the introduction... i do want to talk about who killed Jesus... but i must go over some other things first...


Why? :confused:


.. i look back at things in my past and see a horrible person... but i know that i have made the choice to never do those things again. there are things in my life, as of this moment, that in the future i will look back on as horrible things i will never do again (such as smoking cigarettes... such a cliché, i know).


Yes, that's a cliché.


random interesting fact... saying something is a cliché is cliché.


Following your last sentence: it's not random and it's not interesting. :rolleyes:


p.s. i quote the Bible. i find it very quotable. i am not trying to preach.


You are preaching.


i must warn you before you read any further... i type long posts (i'm sure you've noticed by now if you've read this far). i would constantly be criticized by people in the last forums i posted in because of the length of my posts (partly the reason i left that forum and have had nothing to do with forums until now).


Have you ever wondered why you were constantly criticised?


please, please, PLEASE don't complain about the length of my posts. you do not have to read this if you do not want to... and from personal observation, if you complain about the length of a post, people will either worship you and follow your lead or they will think you are lazy and ignorant and not desiring to read the thoughts, beliefs, or opinions of another human being.


Your posts are too long.
From personal observation, complaining about the length of a post (because it is incoherent) shows the complainer has useful standards.


i type my posts for my own pleasure and for the pleasure of those who enjoy reading what i post.


Educated people will not derive pleasure from badly written posts.


know this... i am stubborn... and until i choose to change the way i think or believe, i will continue to think and believe the things i do.


Yes, that's the definition of stubborn. :smack:
So that could have been left out of your post.


i am not stupid... but i can be VERY foolish.


And that is ironic.


i like to debate with other humans.


But do they like to debate with you?
If not, have you considered why?


i believe creation took billions of years and i believe evolution was a process of creation. i DO NOT believe man evolved directly from ape, or any sort of animal. Man was created of the Earth.


This is scary.

Nobody believes 'man evolved directly from ape'.

If you can't even get this right, then how are we to trust you on anything?


with 'nuff said... i will now get to the topic of this thread. Who killed Jesus?


Sadly I've lost interest because of all the problems above.
I hope you'll look at my points and try to understand what a poor impression you gave of yourself with this first post.

Please feel free to comment on my points, as I enjoy a good debate.

FriarTed
03-29-2009, 08:08 AM
Tribune Mustard . . . in the Temple . . . with a gladius ?

DAMMIT! That was good!

Revenant Threshold
03-29-2009, 08:59 AM
I've a question; what does "Lacunas Quell" mean?

ianzin
03-29-2009, 09:11 AM
Kanicbird, please say hi to Lacunas Quell.

Lacunas Quell, please say hi to Kanicbird.

Truly, you two were made for each other. If you could just please correspond with each other from now on, rather than posting here, in my opinion you would be doing us all (and each other) a favour.

Lacunas, in the early stages of this relationship you will have to get used to the fact that according to his own words and reasoning, Kanicbird is "a satanic demon intent on spreading nonsense".

(Note to Mods: this is neither an insult of Kanicbird nor a case of 'flaming' him. It is a fact according to Kanicbird's own words and reasoning. See an earlier post containing all the links that prove this is the case. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10942298&postcount=103)

Kanicbird has also asserted that "Truths are above facts". I have asked him about three times whether this is a fact (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10944414&postcount=75) but so far he hasn't answered this simple question.

Lacunae Quell
03-29-2009, 09:14 AM
OK, if you want to write like you don't give a shit, then go to another board where the people are idiots. Here, you're going to be expected to type properly and to have concise arguments instead of just ranting and rambling. Also, I don't think you have a very good understanding of what "dry humor" is.

wtf dude? seriously...?

i think you have this thread confused with another one. this is not the petty argument thread. i put up with petty arguments a lot in my ex-forums... it got old fast. sure i had a few good laughs at the people trying to make me feel stupid... but i know i'm not stupid. i'm very learned. i was learned well in skool. huked on fonicks werked 4 me!

i'm not an idiot and i don't appreciate you insinuating that i am one. why does it matter how i type? does the way i type change the meaning of the words or fail to get my point across? does it make me any less intelligent? i don't think so... i think it shows i'm a little lazy... but it's also the way i type. it's my style. i like to do things outside of the norm. are you so desperate to get in the last word and have the last laugh that you're willing to pick on me about such a petty thing? next you'll probably start crackin' jokes about my momma.

i am the creator of this thread. i created this thread... please do not tell me how to type or not to rant and ramble. if you actually read what i type you will notice it is not rambling... and it's not even so much a rant. i believe i type very clearly and i believe i get my points across very well... most of the time. i have been ranting with you... but you provoked me to do so because you just won't drop the fact that i don't feel like stretching either little finger to either shift key on either side of my stupid keyboard. GOSH! please drop it already... if you haven't noticed i will continue to reply to your childish accusations of grammatical incompetence (because i am well aware of when to use capital letters, i just choose not to)... and all my posts will likely be several paragraphs long. i'm sorry my thoughts are so complex that i can't fit them into one sentence or paragraph... i really am. i just don't know when to quit. i'm like the Energizer Bunny of typing... i just keep going, and going, and going, and going, and going, and i'm telling you now this is going to go on for a long time, and going, and going, and going, and going, and going, and going, and going, and going, and going, and going, and i wasn't kidding, and going, and going, and going, and going, and going, and going, and going, and going, and going, and going.

i'm sure if i started typing like a little girl hopped up on adderall and ran all my sentences together and started picking on people about stupid things while drinking a yoo-hoo on a sunday morning in an online forum that i stumbled across hoping i'd find people who didn't act so childish about the thoughts and opinions and beliefs of others that maybe just maybe tomorrow i can get lunch at arby's cause that's what i was thinking but maybe i'll just go to the library and play in the playground in the sandbox and hope that i don't cut myself on a piece of broken glass or a heroin needle because that would be really really bad and then i'd probably start rambling like a little girl hopped up on adderall and run all my sentences together and start picking on people about stupid things while drinking a yoo-hoo on a sunday morning in an online forum trying to get the point across to a certain individual that I KNOW WHAT RAMBLING AND RANTING IS AND I HAVE NOT DONE SO UNTIL NOW!

you, my towering friend, are the ranter and i do not appreciate you coming into the thread i created and ranting about the way i choose to type.

i also don't appreciate you telling me what i do or do not understand. i know what dry humor is and i believe at times i use it quite well. i was taught that if you don't know the meaning of a word or phrase or expression, to look it up. that's what i do. my vocabulary expands by about a word or two each month(in case you didn't catch it, that was dry humor).

does anyone, besides Argent Towers, have a problem with the way i choose to type? if i get enough posts by midnight on the second Tuesday of next week, i just might start using the shift key.

Weston
03-29-2009, 09:41 AM
does anyone, besides Argent Towers, have a problem with the way i choose to type?


Yes. Four other posters in this thread have criticised your writing style. Not including me. One other poster has suggested you might get on well with kanicbird, which is just another way of saying you're a nutcase. Virtually nobody has focussed on the meat of your OP and, the way this thread is going, nobody ever will...because of the way you type.

At some boards, you can get away with a cavalier disregard for the rules of composition. On this one, you can't. That's just the culture here and there's not a damn thing you can do to change it. People appreciate tidy, well written, posts. My typing sucks and my first couple of posts were filled with spelling and grammar errors. Once I wised up (without it needing to be pointed out to me, I might add), I just started running my posts through a spellchecker first and, whaddayaknow? They're much better, neater, and more readable, even for me.

Stick with this counterproductive posting style if you like, but don't expect anyone to take you seriously.

NineToTheSky
03-29-2009, 09:52 AM
Originally Posted by Lacunas Quell
does anyone, besides Argent Towers, have a problem with the way i choose to type?
Count me in. Some people are suited some boards. Some are not. If you want people to take you seriously here, you will have to comply with the conventions of this board. If you don't want to, fair enough, but you'll soon find you're talking to yourself.

Lacunae Quell
03-29-2009, 10:04 AM
Look, listen. You're obviously making a case for something, right? I mean, that's why you posted your unreadable screed on a message board rather than your own personal blog. You want to persuade people. Well, I can tell you that you'll never, ever, persuade anyone of anything if you keep posting the way you're doing.

Fact is, inattention to spelling, grammar, and capitalisation, in a written medium, are clear indications that the author is either stupid or crazy. Or both. Now, I don't know you. You may be a genius. All I can tell is that you're coming across very differently. I mean, imagine if you were in a bookshop and you picked up a book full of huge paragraphs with massive run-on sentences and virtually no capitalisation. You'd probably put it straight back without getting to the end of the first page. And the fact is that you'd likely be right to do so because it probably would have been written by someone stupid, or crazy. Or both.

Bottom line: If you don't care enough to format your posts properly, no-one else will care enough to read them. And that'll be your fault, not anybody else's. And considering we're on a message board, that rather defeats the object of you being here. If you just love typing so much then get a blog. Hell, just open up an MSWord document and go nuts. I don't care. Just please don't post here until you can be bothered to make your posts fit to read. At the end of the day, it's just the courteous thing to do.

I have every right to post in this forum. That is why this forum is here. If you don't want to read my posts, please, don't even click on a thread that I have created. No one is forcing you to come in here. DO NOT tell me what I can, cannot, will or will not do.

It is so very pathetic, that instead of anyone actually trying to debate or argue, that you all pick on me for such a petty thing. Please present me with the facts that, and I quote, "inattention to spelling, grammar, and capitalisation, in a written medium, are clear indications that the author is either stupid or crazy". Fact is, that IS NOT even a fact. That is your assumption. I am neither stupid nor crazy. Even if I were crazy, and I wrote a book without proper capitalization, someone would like it. Just because several of you have teamed up against me and my habit of not using the shift key when I should doesn't mean everyone is with you. I guarantee you of that. All you people are trying to do is get under my skin because you don't agree with what I believe to be true, so you are picking on me. It's sad, really. I feel like the new geeky smart kid in second grade getting bullied on the playground by all the bigger, tougher, more popular students. I know perfectly well how to type properly and I try my absolute best to use an assortment of colorful words and proper grammar. I love words and grammar. I just don't find it necessarily imperative to use capitalization just because people complain about it.... but from now on, if it would please the people, I will use proper capitalization... just so you all will drop it. Of course, now the people will probably start picking on my love of the ellipsis... those bastards...

...

I would go over what you posted and point out several grammatical errors and a punctuation error that I noticed... but I have no desire to make a person feel stupid or foolish. If you correct your errors in another post I just might agree with what you said. That's a lie. I won't agree with what you said because what you said is bunk and not fact.

You all are being very critical towards me. You're not even treating me like I am a human being with feelings. You have just stated that you believe I am crazy or stupid... or both. How is that right? If I were the kind of person who was easily offended (and believe you me, those people piss me off more than anything), I would report the way I am being treated. I, however, am not a cry baby like some people, and I can defend myself because I have confidence.

I am quite capable of proper spelling and grammar, so don't get on me about that. I am also perfectly capable of proper capitalization, I just choose not to do so. It is not a crime to not use the shift key... and I GUARANTEE you that you're little "fact" is nothing more than fictitious garbage intended to insult and/or offend me. That's why I Googled your fact and that's why I'm laughing at you.

If someone really wants to read my posts, capitalization won't matter. Someone will read my posts and someone will appreciate it. That is a fact... because this is a world full of people and not all of them are cretins. Some people will enjoy the way I present my points and arguments. I've had compliments from people. Some people are actually amused with the way I type and what I type about... and some people genuinely appreciate the stand I take for what I believe in.

...or is it because I quote the Bible? I know that in forums, if you talk about Jesus, you might as well have the plague, because people will avoid reading your posts at all costs, yet find petty things to pick on you about. I know from experience. I've been through this kind of thing before.

There... was that courteous enough for his/her highness? Is there anything else I can do for you? Anything at all? Maybe give you a foot rub? Perhaps wipe your bottom? Would you care for a Hot Pocket?

By the way... this will be the only post where I use proper capitalization. If it bothers you SO much, then please feel free to f'ck off.

Argent Towers
03-29-2009, 10:07 AM
i also don't appreciate you telling me what i do or do not understand. i know what dry humor is and i believe at times i use it quite well. i was taught that if you don't know the meaning of a word or phrase or expression, to look it up. that's what i do. my vocabulary expands by about a word or two each month(in case you didn't catch it, that was dry humor).

No, you do not understand what dry humor is. No, you do not use it quite well. If I were you I would just stop now and save face; if you keep this up, I guarantee you won't enjoy the result of it.

Lacunae Quell
03-29-2009, 10:18 AM
I don't recall the scriptures saying He was actually killed, but He died as His work was finished. A soldier was assigned a task of delivering a death blow, but Jesus already left. It is true that the cross would eventually cause death, but for that matter being conceived and born would eventually lead to death also (with some notiable exceptions, Enoch, Elijha).

Already I can tell that this is a person who in some way appreciates my post or who would like to strike up a conversation. This person did not say one cruel thing about the way I typed and this person properly capitalizes the third-person and possessive pronoun when referring to Christ. This person has respect.


Jesus did die when His work was finished and a soldier DID deliver the death blow. The soldiers would usually use their spears to break the legs of the crucified so the crucified could no longer push themselves up to breathe. However, the soldier noticed that Jesus had already stopped breathing, and instead of breaking his leg, the soldier drove his spear into Jesus' side. This was to fulfill prophecy. Thus in the offering of the Lamb of God was fulfilled the law of the Passover, "They shall leave none of it unto the morning, nor break any bone of it: according to all the ordinances of the Passover they shall keep it." Num. 9:12 There are also other scriptures, one in Matthew 4:6 that says "And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone". That was Satan tempting Jesus to prove that what the prophecies said about God protecting Jesus' bones so that none would ever be broken were true. A perfect sacrifice was required. A broken bone would have been considered a blemish on a sacrificial lamb. Jesus was found without blemish before God.

I truly believe that had Jesus not laid down His own life, He would have lived forever. Sin is the cause of Death. Since Jesus was without sin, there would be no natural way for Him to die. Sin had no power over Him. The only reason He died is because He laid down His life for His friends and enemies.

Weston
03-29-2009, 10:22 AM
I feel like the new geeky smart kid in second grade getting bullied on the playground by all the bigger, tougher, more popular students.


Well that's regrettable. By and large, people here are generally very nice. Spend a little time in the MPSIMS forum and you'll see plenty of the same people in this thread cracking jokes, or helping others out with their problems with compassion, or sometimes doing both simultaneously. You seem to have gotten off on the wrong foot in this thread, but I know for certain that absolutely nobody will hold it against you in future threads provided you take certain simple steps to make your posts a little more readable.


By the way... this will be the only post where I use proper capitalization. If it bothers you SO much, then please feel free to f'ck off.


It is also the only post that I (and probably most people) will read all the way through. Look, we're just telling you the way things are on this site. You can either fight it, and be ignored, or chill out and go with the flow. And nobody wants to take the first option. It's up to you, man.

Revenant Threshold
03-29-2009, 10:29 AM
Already I can tell that this is a person who in some way appreciates my post or who would like to strike up a conversation. This person did not say one cruel thing about the way I typed and this person properly capitalizes the third-person and possessive pronoun when referring to Christ. This person has respect. While i'm not particularly intereted in getting into the whole grammatical dogpile that seems to be forming - I don't think it's particularly proper to capatalize the third-person when it comes to Jesus. Names, yes, as with God, but using "He" and "Him" to refer to Jesus (or God) generally isn't the norm outside of believers. And even including some.

I'm pointing this out not to say you're wrong, but just to say that when I refer to Jesus or God as he or him I don't do it out of a lack of respect, just out of a lack of belief. So when I do so, it's not intended to give offense or to be insulting, and that, in general, I don't think not using He or Him is an indication of lack of respect. Besides, those truly intending to show their lack of respect are usually a bit clearer about doing so than through grammar. ;)

Weston
03-29-2009, 10:30 AM
Jesus did die when His work was finished and a soldier DID deliver the death blow. The soldiers would usually use their spears to break the legs of the crucified so the crucified could no longer push themselves up to breathe. However, the soldier noticed that Jesus had already stopped breathing, and instead of breaking his leg, the soldier drove his spear into Jesus' side. This was to fulfill prophecy.


I have a quick question about this. Are there any books apart from the Bible which recount this soldier's actions? As I understand it, the gospels were written 70-100 years after Jesus' death and were written by members of his 2nd or 3rd generation of followers who had a vested interest in aligning Jesus' life story as closely as possible to Old Testament prophecy. Without independent corroboration of the soldier's actions, do we have any way of knowing that John (who, as I recall, is the only gospel writer to mention this incident) didn't just invent this detail to make his tract more persuasive to non-Christians? Or, less controversially, do we have any way of knowing that this detail didn't spontaneously arise over numerous retellings of the crucifixion story as it was passed from generation to generation before finally being committed to paper?

FriarTed
03-29-2009, 10:46 AM
Lacunas, there are decaffeinated brands that are just as tasty. You may want to try them.

Strinka
03-29-2009, 11:10 AM
Jesus did die when His work was finished and a soldier DID deliver the death blow. The soldiers would usually use their spears to break the legs of the crucified so the crucified could no longer push themselves up to breathe. However, the soldier noticed that Jesus had already stopped breathing, and instead of breaking his leg, the soldier drove his spear into Jesus' side. This was to fulfill prophecy. Thus in the offering of the Lamb of God was fulfilled the law of the Passover, "They shall leave none of it unto the morning, nor break any bone of it: according to all the ordinances of the Passover they shall keep it." Num. 9:12 There are also other scriptures, one in Matthew 4:6 that says "And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone". That was Satan tempting Jesus to prove that what the prophecies said about God protecting Jesus' bones so that none would ever be broken were true. A perfect sacrifice was required. A broken bone would have been considered a blemish on a sacrificial lamb. Jesus was found without blemish before God.

Funny thing, in the Iliad, it prophecies that if Achilles doesn't go to Troy, he'll live a long, unremarkable life, but if he does go to Troy, he'll die there, but have a glorious life and be remembered forever. Then, he went to Troy, died there, and is still remembered to this day. The prophecy was fulfilled!

tomndebb
03-29-2009, 11:22 AM
if you had read my post i believe you would have noticed that i made it perfectly clear the only reason i am typing said post is for my own personal satisfaction. this was not typed for you. This is fine, as far as it goes, except that this is the forum for debate and witnessing.
If you are not submitting a thesis for debate
and
you are not attempting to witness for some Great Truth you believe you have found,
you really do not have any business postng to this forum.i iF i WanTeD to TYpE lIkE ThiS i WouLD Do Ii AlL tHe tiMe aND tHeRE IS nOThIng YoU cOUlD dO ABoUt iT.Well, in my particular case, there are several things that I can do about it.
wtf dude? seriously...?

i think you have this thread confused with another one. this is not the petty argument thread. i put up with petty arguments a lot in my ex-forums... it got old fast. sure i had a few good laughs at the people trying to make me feel stupid... but i know i'm not stupid. i'm very learned. i was learned well in skool. huked on fonicks werked 4 me!

i'm not an idiot and i don't appreciate you insinuating that i am one. You have contradicted yourself. You claim to be posting only for your own enjoyment and now you claim that this is not the petty argument thread. Yet it is exactly that. When you post disjointed and largely incoherent ramblings, using an irritating style, in a forum dedicated to arguing, it is pretty much a guaranteed outcome that you will encounter petty arguments. You have posted no grand thesis to be debated, so the only thing left is petty argumentation.
I have every right to post in this forum. That is why this forum is here. If you don't want to read my posts, please, don't even click on a thread that I have created. No one is forcing you to come in here. DO NOT tell me what I can, cannot, will or will not do.
. . .
By the way... this will be the only post where I use proper capitalization. If it bothers you SO much, then please feel free to f'ck off.There are a few rules in this forum, however. One is to limit attacks to challenging statements while refraining from direct attacks on other posters. You will, therefore, refrain from telling anyone to fuck off in the future.

= = =

That said, to EVERYONE ELSE, Lacunas Quell makes a correct observation in the last quote: no one is compelled to respond to this stuff.

Given the nature of this board, I realize that some number of you cannot resist picking at scabs or probing broken teeth with your tongues, but do recognize, up front, that you are all just playing the same game he is and don't come back posting, (or reporting), in indignation when he does not change his style or go away.

[ /Moderating ]

ianzin
03-29-2009, 11:30 AM
If it bothers you SO much, then please feel free to f'ck off. Thank you for demonstrating your full capacity for thoughtful and intelligent discussion, civilised debate and fair reasoning.

You and Kanicbird are just made for each other.

Weston
03-29-2009, 11:35 AM
Guys, LQ has modified his posting style in the last couple of posts. Why don't we just start over?

BigBertha
03-29-2009, 11:37 AM
I'm waiting for him to say Gotcha Ya.

kanicbird
03-29-2009, 11:49 AM
Jesus did die when His work was finished and a soldier DID deliver the death blow.
The scriptures say He was already dead, so how could a soldier deliver a death blow to a already dead body, one that the Spirit had left. I's true that the soldier intended to inflict a death blow, but could only release blood and water from the corpse.

The other points I am in agreement of.


I truly believe that had Jesus not laid down His own life, He would have lived forever. Sin is the cause of Death. Since Jesus was without sin, there would be no natural way for Him to die. Sin had no power over Him. The only reason He died is because He laid down His life for His friends and enemies.

My take on it is He died because we sinned, as we are made in a way that Jesus has to love us so intensely, to the point that He would be willing to die to get us back.

Principalities and powers (demons), operating both spiritually, and through people tried to contain Jesus (and His message), trying to trap Him, without much success at first as the Father was protecting Him because Jesus was following the Holy Spirit. Finally they were able to do so on the cross. Jesus was unable to physically move, most likely would have great difficulty talking, and surrounded by those who mocked Him, though his physical needs were being met - though in great torment, such as offered a drink when He thirsted. It could be said that the cross is a form of ongoing torment, not execution. The execution is another step. Trapped in this way there was no escape except through death.


This death happened interesting enough because He allowed a single devil in the flesh (Judas Iscariot) into his 'house' knowingly and breaking bread with the enemy. Jesus offered His body and blood to the 11 + one devil. IMHO the motivation for allowing a devil in was judged by God, and Jesus found blameless as His intention was salvation, as opposed to give into temptation as God looks at the heart. By allowing this single devil in Jesus accepted death (again IMHO).

Snow Pea
03-29-2009, 12:18 PM
Why does the OP think anyone here is interested in his ramblings?

Little Nemo
03-29-2009, 12:26 PM
Hello, Lacunas. Welcome to the board. You're going to find some hostility here because, obviously, this is not a new topic. Other people have witnessed their faith here before so there's an attitude of "we're going to go through this again?". Keep in mind that virtually everyone is aware that Jesus died on the cross so you're not telling anyone something they didn't already know. What I presume you're trying to do is convince people of the meaning of that act.

The writing style isn't helping your case. One of the conventions of this board is we like people to make the effort to write their posts well, including using proper capitalization, spelling, and punctuation.

And try to trim things down a bit. Don't feel the need to put everything into a single post. Figure out what your main point is and post that. If you put too much into a single post, that main point can be lost in the crowd of words. You can always come back in future posts and add in other ideas as the thread grows.

Snnipe 70E
03-29-2009, 12:56 PM
This is funny.

All these people who are "really smart" read the op's post and ignore it because it is to long.

They explain how wrong he is multiply times and ask him not to waste their time by posting. but they read and post and spend their time. their are a lot of threads that I just skim because I do not want to waste my time with, I do not post and post because someone is wasting my time. If it is a waste I laugh or shake my head and go on.

Got go now time for church.

Lacunae Quell
03-29-2009, 02:02 PM
before i start with this reply i would like to slap myself in the head... *smack*... I was suddenly reminded by the red like under Lacunas that the plural of Lacuna is Lacunae (and no i didn't have to right click and see the correct spelling...). let's all just pretend i thought i typed the 'e' but didn't notice i typed an 's'. I'm not ashamed or afraid to own up to my mistakes. I may be intelligent, but I'm still human, and as far as I'm concerned ALL humans make mistakes. It's human nature.

I would greatly appreciate if someone would inform me on how to get it fixed. I remember reading, while signing up, that to change your user name you have to contact the administration... or something like that. I don't know I wasn't paying attention.

v.v

Welcome to the StraightDope. :)

Here you will find a well-educated group of posters with a great deal of knowledge between them. (Have a look at various posts to see this.)

I have my doubts about that statement. I believe I am one of the most intelligent persons alive(Lacunas is proof of that fo'shizzle, lol), and who are you to say I am not? Go ahead. Call me a liar ;). I might not be as "educated" as some people... but I'm intelligent nonetheless. There may very well be some brilliant and well educated posters with a great deal of knowledge... but not everyone has a great deal of wisdom and most certainly, as I have noticed from the first reply to my post, not everyone shows a great deal of understanding.

As others have said, all we know about you is what you type and how you type it.
So when you ramble, make unsupported assertions, fail to proof-read your posts and treat us like we are a bunch of fools who need to lectured ... then you should not be surprised we don't take you or your 'arguments' seriously.

Believe me. I proof read my posts(just not my user names). I probably read my posts more than everyone else who reads my posts combined. I'm a very conceited and self-conscious person. I also am not the one who initiated the lectures. I believe those who can't understand what I type or refuse to read what I type because I intentionally don't use proper capitalization are the one's who started the lecturing and foolish insinuating. Please note, that for your viewing pleasure, I have decide to tediously capitalize all that is in need of capitalization.


Let's have a look at your initial post:

Please, Glee... let's do.




Originally Posted by Lacunas Quell
before i rant, and yes, there will be ranting, i would first like to thank God for leading me to this website because it has been far too long since i last posted in a forum


God did a poor job in leading you here and not warning you about ranting. We like an informed discussion. Our motto is 'Fighting ignorance"!

I am informed about my discussion. As a Christian, my sole source of information regarding anything I discuss would obviously and logically be the Holy Bible, or any text related to the Holy Bible. I believe the Holy Bible is full of truth and that those truths apply to ALL mankind. Who are you to call me a liar? Even more so, who are you to say God is a liar? It is written "Let God's word be true and every man be found a liar". Does that make me a liar? I'm a man and the Bible says all men are to be found liars! OH NO! I'm caught! Good thing I get my information from the Word of God. FYI... God doesn't do a poor job at anything.

It also seems like this website is the cause of more ignorance than the destruction of.




Originally Posted by Lacunas Quell
I will get to the topic of this thread after the introduction... i do want to talk about who killed Jesus... but i must go over some other things first...


Why?

Because I would like for people to attempt to and have the opportunity to understand me as a person and I feel it is important to state these things because I'm just that kind of person, ok? I want to relate to people and/or I want people to relate with me. That was my way of doing so. Forgive me if I don't exhibit proper internet etiquette. Honestly, I could care less about internet etiquette. I can't believe people expect etiquette in a virtual world. It's silly, but because I want people to read what I have to say without thinking I'm a nutcase... God forbid they should have any understanding of my wanting to be a unique individual that does things my own way.




Originally Posted by Lacunas Quell
.. i look back at things in my past and see a horrible person... but i know that i have made the choice to never do those things again. there are things in my life, as of this moment, that in the future i will look back on as horrible things i will never do again (such as smoking cigarettes... such a cliché, i know).

Yes, that's a cliché.

Why, yes! Yes it is. Doesn't mean I don't accept it as the truth, though.




Originally Posted by Lacunas Quell View Post
random interesting fact... saying something is a cliché is cliché.

Following your last sentence: it's not random and it's not interesting.

The fact you don't find it interesting is your own personal opinion. Others may have found that statement interesting or humorous, as it was intended to be humorous. Let me ask you this, Nostradamus... were you expecting me to say it? Well then I guess it was pretty darn random for you.




Originally Posted by Lacunas Quell View Post
p.s. i quote the Bible. i find it very quotable. i am not trying to preach.

You are preaching.

I don't believe I am. It is not my intention to preach. I am stating what I believe as the truth. I do not feel as if I'm giving a sermon, nor do I feel as if I am advocating or verbally supporting anyone reading my posts in an insisting, urging, or inciting manner. I am just typing what I perceive as fact and truth. I have yet to encourage anyone to believe what I believe nor have I condemned anyone who does not believe. However, because most of the replies to my post have been petty attempts at discrediting me because I was choosing not to capitalize, well... I don't know what any of you believe.



Originally Posted by Lacunas Quell
i must warn you before you read any further... i type long posts (i'm sure you've noticed by now if you've read this far). i would constantly be criticized by people in the last forums i posted in because of the length of my posts (partly the reason i left that forum and have had nothing to do with forums until now).

Have you ever wondered why you were constantly criticised?

Not for one moment have I ever wondered why I am constantly criticized. I've known the reason all along. Ignorance. Certain people are ignorant, especially when it comes to understanding the Word of God.

It looks like, with myself included, ignorance is still right at home on StraightDope. ...great job fighting it, guys!




Originally Posted by Lacunas Quell
please, please, PLEASE don't complain about the length of my posts. you do not have to read this if you do not want to... and from personal observation, if you complain about the length of a post, people will either worship you and follow your lead or they will think you are lazy and ignorant and not desiring to read the thoughts, beliefs, or opinions of another human being.

Your posts are too long.
From personal observation, complaining about the length of a post (because it is incoherent) shows the complainer has useful standards.

My posts are not incoherent. My posts are quite coherent to those with some understanding, a little bit of Biblical knowledge, and a desire for wisdom. I admit I can be a bit redundant... but I believe the things I type are perfectly coherent.




Originally Posted by Lacunas Quell
i type my posts for my own pleasure and for the pleasure of those who enjoy reading what i post.


Educated people will not derive pleasure from badly written posts.

Because educated people think too highly of their selves. They are puffed up with knowledge and educated people tend to have the bad habit of thinking they are better than others just because they are or are more educated. I probably know more about the Bible than most everyone, if not everyone, who has replied to this thread. I have also probably attended more Bible Studies than most everyone, if not everyone, who has participated in this thread. Therefore, I am more educated when it comes to the Bible and the Word of God, yet I don't think that makes me better than you. I won't tread in unfamiliar waters. You won't find me discussing nonlinear dynamics or the fact that protons have mass... sheesh... i didn't even know protons were Catholic! (yes, for those of you wondering, I have played fallout 3 and that is exactly where i heard that joke).




Originally Posted by Lacunas Quell
know this... i am stubborn... and until i choose to change the way i think or believe, i will continue to think and believe the things i do.

[QUOTE=glee;10983425]Yes, that's the definition of stubborn.
So that could have been left out of your post.

Well it wasn't. I didn't know I would be talking with super geniuses when typing that. I didn't know half of you were going to be English and Language professors. Had I know... I would've... probably still said it. deal with it. If it bothers you that I am redundant... then I... really don't care. I can't please everyone. I'm not trying to impress anyone here. I'm not that desperate for an ego trip... like some educated people I have recently met. Trust me on this one though... it is definitely SWIY. Are acronyms frowned upon here at SD? I seriously hope not... LOL... or else I'll be ROTFLMAO because I just can't seem to do anything right in the PUBLIC, FREE, PLACE TO WITNESS (if I must), and if I assume correctly SD (that stands for StraightDope, btw) is most awesomely headquartered in the good ol' U.S. of MUTHA'FIZZUCKIN'FREEDOM'o'MUTHA'FIZZUCKIN'SPEECH A., baby! oops... there i go with my redundancy again. oops... I didn't capitalize that last 'i'... shame on me. I guess that's just an average redundant high school drop out with a dry sense of humor (or no sense of humor) for ya.




Originally Posted by Lacunas Quell
i am not stupid... but i can be VERY foolish.

And that is ironic.

so are flightless birds and flying fish.

...but you wanna know something really ironic? Irony.




Originally Posted by Lacunas Quell
i like to debate with other humans.

But do they like to debate with you?
If not, have you considered why?

Some do. Especially those who take the time to debate with me instead of going out of their way to be so repetitively condescending. I don't mind subtle condescension... because it's not as apparent as regular condescension. When it's subtle it's like... someone is just slightly hinting that they don't think you're as intelligent or educated as they are, and it doesn't hurt as much because 90% of the time, the condescended will be unaware they are being condescended by the condescending. You're rather openly condescending towards me. Have i mentioned how redundant i am? OOPS! I forgot to capitalize two 'is' that time. I'm also rather forgetful. hmmm... is 'is' the plural of 'i'...?


Originally Posted by Lacunas Quell
i believe creation took billions of years and i believe evolution was a process of creation. i DO NOT believe man evolved directly from ape, or any sort of animal. Man was created of the Earth. [EDIT] And man was created in the image of the Holy Trinity.


This is scary.

Nobody believes 'man evolved directly from ape'.

If you can't even get this right, then how are we to trust you on anything?

Oh, believe me, my friend... MANY people believe that man is the descendant of a primate, and that is what I meant, and I believe you know what I meant. Man was created in the image of God... not in the image of a simian anthropoid. IMPO, humankind bears absolutely NO resemblance to primates... c'mon! Fo'shizzle? If no one believes man is a descendant of a great ape, or a great ape-like creature, please explain why great apes and humans are grouped together in the hominid family, and why "Some researchers go so far as to include chimpanzees and gorillas in the genus Homo along with humans".http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hominidae#Taxonomic_history

For those of you who wish to be associated with, and ancestors of, dook-flinging animals, be my guest. I, however, have been created in the image of God, and therefore He has called me to be a god and to be godly, and so I desire to be.

Who said I expected you to trust me? Trust is earned, not given. You will see, given the time, Lord willing, that nothing I say is misleading, or intended to mislead one away from the truth. If you choose not to trust me, that doesn't mean you're in the wrong, and it doesn't make me a liar. I'm just putting the information on the table for those interested.




Originally Posted by Lacunas Quell
with 'nuff said... i will now get to the topic of this thread. Who killed Jesus?


Sadly I've lost interest because of all the problems above.
I hope you'll look at my points and try to understand what a poor impression you gave of yourself with this first post.

I don't believe you were even interested to begin with. Your only desire in participating in this thread seems to be an attempt to appear more educated. I notice you also don't tread in the waters you aren't familiar with. Smart move... in fact... I've noticed no one of has questioned or argued with anything I said about God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit. Which strikes me as odd, because I know I haven't stumbled across a forum full of people who believe in the Holy Trinity, yet treat fellow believers like ignorant fools... or have I? I'll be the first of any of you to admit that I am ignorant and I am a fool and because I admit that of myself, I can freely and accurately distinguish ignorance and foolishness... and let me just wrap this up by stating that I don't believe I'm the only ignorant fool in this thread who is ranting.

Please feel free to comment on my points, as I enjoy a good debate.



so you enjoy a good debate, eh? I hope I have debated to your liking, though I hardly consider this a debate. Do you think you're any good at debating? are you a master debater? haha... i bet you are. it takes one to know one. oops... my bad... this is for all the 'is' i failed to capitalize... I*

...and this is for any other letter I failed to capitalize... ABCDEFGH_JKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ*

Voyager
03-29-2009, 02:23 PM
Who killed Jesus? I must fess up, we Jews did it. Didn't mean to - it was a Pesach part that got out of hand. You know, too much Mogen David, not enough matzo.

The person who did it paid, though. He served 12 years in Unleavenedworth.

Snow Pea
03-29-2009, 02:46 PM
Folks, this guys obviously has mental problems, along with the most obnoxious superiority complex I've ever seen.

Ain't wasting any more time with the idiot.

Der Trihs
03-29-2009, 02:51 PM
I am informed about my discussion. As a Christian, my sole source of information regarding anything I discuss would obviously and logically be the Holy Bible, or any text related to the Holy Bible. I believe the Holy Bible is full of truth and that those truths apply to ALL mankind. It's a collection of primitive mythology, and that's all. It's not especially profound, and it isn't particularly truthful. Admitting that it's your "sole source of information regarding anything I discuss" is an admission of extreme ignorance.

FYI... God doesn't do a poor job at anything.He does fail pretty badly at existing.

Oh, believe me, my friend... MANY people believe that man is the descendant of a primate, and that is what I meant, and I believe you know what I meant. Man was created in the image of God... not in the image of a simian anthropoid. IMPO, humankind bears absolutely NO resemblance to primates... c'mon! Fo'shizzle?We ARE primates, like it or not. Even if all the evidence for evolution is a Satanic Conspiracy and we were created, we were created as primates. Our anatomy and our genetics are those of a primate.

That being said, the evidence for evolution in general, and of humans descending from apes specifically, is overwhelming. You don't like it ? Too bad; reality is not a matter of opinion.

Pushkin
03-29-2009, 02:52 PM
9. Mel Gibson killed Jesus, in order to generate mad box office receipts by depicting His death in excruciatingly graphic detail.

#10. Kyle, so Jesus could take a glaive to William Donohue.

Lacunae Quell
03-29-2009, 03:00 PM
I have a quick question about this. Are there any books apart from the Bible which recount this soldier's actions? As I understand it, the gospels were written 70-100 years after Jesus' death and were written by members of his 2nd or 3rd generation of followers who had a vested interest in aligning Jesus' life story as closely as possible to Old Testament prophecy. Without independent corroboration of the soldier's actions, do we have any way of knowing that John (who, as I recall, is the only gospel writer to mention this incident) didn't just invent this detail to make his tract more persuasive to non-Christians? Or, less controversially, do we have any way of knowing that this detail didn't spontaneously arise over numerous retellings of the crucifixion story as it was passed from generation to generation before finally being committed to paper?

What would any of the authors of the Bible have gained through lying? What would it profit them, and why would they find it necessary to state something that wasn't true? If John truly believe in God and followed the teachings of Jesus Christ, how would John benefit from lying about Jesus Christ, especially if John believed he would be spending eternity with Jesus?

1.) it was common practice for the Romans to break the legs of the crucified to speed the death of the crucified.

2.) a man of God does not believe that lying can be of any benefit to bringing glory to the name of God. lying is considered a sin, sin does NOT glorify God. Revelation 21:8 states that "...ALL liars will have their place in the lake of fire...". I realize early Christians did not have the New Testament as we have it today, but nonetheless early Christians were still taught that lying was sin. That was taught BEFORE Christianity even existed in the Old Testament.

3.) Historians routinely cite Herodotus as a key source of information. He wrote from 488 B.C. to 428 B.C. and the earliest copy of his work comes from 900 A.D. (1,300 years later). There are only eight known copies of his work.

By contrast, the New Testament of the Bible (with all its information about Jesus) was written between 40 A.D. and 100 A.D. The earliest known copy is from 130 A.D. and there are 5,000 known copies in Greek, 10,000 in Latin and 9,300 in other languages(taken fromhttp://www.allaboutjesuschrist.org/historical-and-scientific-proof-of-jesus-faq.htm).

4.) Faith is the greatest factor. "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see"--Hebrews 11:1.

5.) If God could speak light into existence, and be incarnated into flesh, why would there be any doubt that He could deliver the truth of the events of the life and death of Jesus with the New Testament even though it was written 70-100 years after the death of Christ? "For with God nothing shall be impossible"--Luke 1:37.

6.) There is also quite a bit of non-Christian text that mentions Jesus. The one I will mention is Tacitus' Annals, and it says:

"But not all the relief that could come from man, not all the bounties that the prince could bestow, nor all the atonements which could be presented to the gods, availed to relieve Nero from the infamy of being believed to have ordered the conflagration, the fire of Rome. Hence to suppress the rumor, he falsely charged with the guilt, and punished Christians, who were hated for their enormities. Christus, the founder of the name, was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius: but the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time broke out again, not only through Judea, where the mischief originated, but through the city of Rome also, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their center and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind"(taken fromhttp://www.tektonics.org/jesusexist/tacitus.html).

The Romans were extremely anti-Christ. Why would they even mention Him, and confess that He was put to death by Ponius Pilate if Jesus Christ wasn't crucified? Now this certainly doesn't prove the actions of any individual soldier... but the point I'm attempting to make is that if anti-Christians didn't deny the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, why would any one who claimed to serve and love Jesus Christ lie about the events which took place during His crucifixion?

Fear Itself
03-29-2009, 03:09 PM
CS Lewis said Jesus was either a "Liar, Lunatic, or Lord". I have chosen to believe He is Lord... i can find no reason to believe He was a liar or a lunatic.This implies that your beliefs are based upon reason, not faith. If you beliefs were based on faith alone, it would be unnecessary for you to have a reason for what you believe; faith requires no proof, so a reason is redundant. So I can only conclude that your faith is weak, and requires additional support for you to maintain your belief; that is why you need a reason to to believe Jesus is lord. If you had faith as small as a mustard seed, you would need no reason.
I believe the Holy Bible is full of truth and that those truths apply to ALL mankind. Who are you to call me a liar? You may not be a liar, but you are mistaken.

GIGObuster
03-29-2009, 03:13 PM
I believe I am one of the most intelligent persons alive(Lacunas is proof of that fo'shizzle, lol), and who are you to say I am not? Go ahead.
Well, just not being aware of the difference of human and apes descending from a common ancestor from humans descending from the apes is enough evidence to show that you are an ignorant.

To me one big test of the intelligence of others will show in their capacity to also noticing and acknowledging and dealing with contradictory evidence.

So, do you know the difference? (no, showing what some researches think is only going away from the consensus).

Looking at the reply to glee I can see that you only want to deal with beliefs and not what the evidence and the majority of researchers are currently reporting on how human evolution and biblical research are taking place. Your reply to glee was just made also of veiled insults. Doing a proper debate is clearly the last of your intentions.


BTW the Romans killed Jesus. And then by destroying Jerusalem they unwillingly were a factor in making Christians to become a separate group from Jews.

GIGObuster
03-29-2009, 03:18 PM
What would any of the authors of the Bible have gained through lying? What would it profit them, and why would they find it necessary to state something that wasn't true? If John truly believe in God and followed the teachings of Jesus Christ, how would John benefit from lying about Jesus Christ, especially if John believed he would be spending eternity with Jesus?

John to other apostles:

"Hey fellas!! The gentiles are eating this up!!! Forget the Jews!

:) (I'm only 1/2 kidding IMHO)

Q.E.D.
03-29-2009, 03:25 PM
What would any of the authors of the Bible have gained through lying? What would it profit them, and why would they find it necessary to state something that wasn't true?

Why don't you ask Stephen King?

Attack from the 3rd dimension
03-29-2009, 03:30 PM
We have multiple breakaway boards now. Is there any way to get kanicbird and Lacunas Quell to form another one?

I nominate The Pernicious Superstition Board, after the Tacitus quote above.

cerberus
03-29-2009, 03:32 PM
Under the usual mythology, Jesus' death was necessary. If I recall correctly, the Roman Empire killed Jesus by crucifying him. But regardless of actually killed him, it was necessary - the Pharisees and Judas were necessary to force the sacrifice. How would it have played out if the response to Jesus had been ... meh? What if Pilate had said to the Pharisees: meh, get over it, I will not kill this man?

And would God please Bless the OP with capital letters and punctuation?

Lacunae Quell
03-29-2009, 03:34 PM
Why does the OP think anyone here is interested in his ramblings?

assuming I'm the OP, i would like to speak in the defense of said "ramblings".

If all who posted thought that I was just rambling, I don't believe this thread would be receiving certain attention. Not all the reply posts have been insulting. Some people ask great serious questions and actually appear interested. I believe those who ask the serious questions realize that, although I may be eccentric and quite a bit obnoxious, I am seriously attempting to witness what I believe to be the truth. I'm not just babbling incoherently, nor am I making things up off the top of my head and blurting them onto the computer screen. I didn't come here not knowing what I was getting myself in to. I was well aware that if I stated my beliefs it would raise questions, and people would expect answers. If I was just a ranting rambler without a coherent knowledge of what I was typing about... do you think I would've stuck around this long?

Jesus the Christ
03-29-2009, 03:41 PM
wtf dude? seriously...?

i think you have this thread confused with another one. this is not the petty argument thread. i put up with petty arguments a lot in my ex-forums... it got old fast. sure i had a few good laughs at the people trying to make me feel stupid... but i know i'm not stupid. i'm very learned. i was learned well in skool. huked on fonicks werked 4 me!

i'm not an idiot and i don't appreciate you insinuating that i am one. why does it matter how i type? does the way i type change the meaning of the words or fail to get my point across? does it make me any less intelligent? i don't think so... i think it shows i'm a little lazy... but it's also the way i type. it's my style. i like to do things outside of the norm. are you so desperate to get in the last word and have the last laugh that you're willing to pick on me about such a petty thing? next you'll probably start crackin' jokes about my momma.

i am the creator of this thread. i created this thread... please do not tell me how to type or not to rant and ramble. if you actually read what i type you will notice it is not rambling... and it's not even so much a rant. i believe i type very clearly and i believe i get my points across very well... most of the time.

does anyone, besides Argent Towers, have a problem with the way i choose to type? if i get enough posts by midnight on the second Tuesday of next week, i just might start using the shift key.

I taught my followers that being well spoken and polite, you do not speak as one of them . Your manner of speaking means far more than than the details of the story to many.

GIGObuster
03-29-2009, 03:45 PM
assuming I'm the OP, i would like to speak in the defense of said "ramblings".

If all who posted thought that I was just rambling, I don't believe this thread would be receiving certain attention.
We are all rubberneckers when we see a wreck on the road. It does not mean that the attention was gained for a good reason.

Not all the reply posts have been insulting. Some people ask great serious questions and actually appear interested.
After a few checks in the rear view mirror, even we lose interest on a wreck.

I believe those who ask the serious questions realize that, although I may be eccentric and quite a bit obnoxious, I am seriously attempting to witness what I believe to be the truth. I'm not just babbling incoherently, nor am I making things up off the top of my head and blurting them onto the computer screen. I didn't come here not knowing what I was getting myself in to. I was well aware that if I stated my beliefs it would raise questions, and people would expect answers. If I was just a ranting rambler without a coherent knowledge of what I was typing about... do you think I would've stuck around this long?
Just a few months? Or just for the day the thread has been here? Either way I do not think you are aware of what really means to "stuck around this long".

On edit: I see that even Jesus is upset for the wreck of the original post. :p

Colibri
03-29-2009, 03:46 PM
Who killed Jesus? I must fess up, we Jews did it. Didn't mean to - it was a Pesach part that got out of hand. You know, too much Mogen David, not enough matzo.

The person who did it paid, though. He served 12 years in Unleavenedworth.

Lenny Bruce:

We Jews killed Christ. And if he comes back,we'll kill him again.

along with the most obnoxious superiority complex I've ever seen.


You haven't been posting here very long, have you? :)

Der Trihs
03-29-2009, 03:51 PM
Lenny Bruce:
We Jews killed Christ. And if he comes back,we'll kill him again.
That line reminds me of this one :

A guy says, "I hate Jews," and I said, "Why?" He goes, "Because they killed my God." They believe that. If I believed that the Jews killed my God, I'd worship the Jews, 'cause shit, there's some badasses on that team, man.

Bryan Ekers
03-29-2009, 04:12 PM
Killed or not, I assume Jesus would be dead anyway, because it was a long long time ago.

Der Trihs
03-29-2009, 04:18 PM
Killed or not, I assume Jesus would be dead anyway, because it was a long long time ago.Well, if he rose from the dead, he's clearly either a zombie or a vampire. So there's no telling how long he could last. So he'd only be technically dead.

Attack from the 3rd dimension
03-29-2009, 04:19 PM
assuming I'm the OP, i would like to speak in the defense of said "ramblings".

If all who posted thought that I was just rambling, I don't believe this thread would be receiving certain attention. Not all the reply posts have been insulting. Some people ask great serious questions and actually appear interested. I believe those who ask the serious questions realize that, although I may be eccentric and quite a bit obnoxious, I am seriously attempting to witness what I believe to be the truth. I'm not just babbling incoherently, nor am I making things up off the top of my head and blurting them onto the computer screen. I didn't come here not knowing what I was getting myself in to. I was well aware that if I stated my beliefs it would raise questions, and people would expect answers.

Look! Capitalization! Excellent, and the post is not chapter length.

You are the OP. Stating that you yourself are obnoxious may not be the best way to witness. The very long comments with minimal punctuation and capitalization do tend to give the reader the impression that you are "blurting them onto the computer screen", so it's nice that you're taking the extra time to edit [Cue embarrassing typographical error.]


If I was just a ranting rambler without a coherent knowledge of what I was typing about... do you think I would've stuck around this long?

Um...you joined yesterday. I wouldn't like to suggest that you're a sock or anything, although it did cross my mind when I read Snnipe 70E's typographically challenged support of your position. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you mean.

kanicbird
03-29-2009, 04:25 PM
Well, if he rose from the dead, he's clearly either a zombie or a vampire. So there's no telling how long he could last. So he'd only be technically dead.

DT, why are you posting this as AFAIK you believe in God, zombies or vampires don't exist at all? What is the basis of your knowledge on these subjects?

MOIDALIZE
03-29-2009, 04:29 PM
Well, if he rose from the dead, he's clearly either a zombie or a vampire. So there's no telling how long he could last. So he'd only be technically dead.

Sounds like He's eligible for TARP funds.

Der Trihs
03-29-2009, 04:37 PM
DT, why are you posting this as AFAIK you believe in God, zombies or vampires don't exist at all? What is the basis of your knowledge on these subjects? I have just as much evidence for Jesus being a vampire as you do for your beliefs.

Musicat
03-29-2009, 04:40 PM
What would any of the authors of the Bible have gained through lying? What would it profit them, and why would they find it necessary to state something that wasn't true? If John truly believe in God and followed the teachings of Jesus Christ, how would John benefit from lying about Jesus Christ, especially if John believed he would be spending eternity with Jesus?People make shit up, dude. The more they believe in something, the more shit they feel they must make up. It's a very human quality, and it's totally unrelated to "truth".

Lacunae Quell
03-29-2009, 04:44 PM
Originally Posted by Lacunas Quell
if you had read my post i believe you would have noticed that i made it perfectly clear the only reason i am typing said post is for my own personal satisfaction. this was not typed for you

This is fine, as far as it goes, except that this is the forum for debate and witnessing. If you are not submitting a thesis for debate and you are not attempting to witness for some Great Truth you believe you have found, you really do not have any business postng to this forum.

I encourage debate and I receive personal satisfaction in typing to be a witness. I am not typing this so others can receive satisfaction from my work. If I am going out of my way to answer the reply posts, even the pointless one, I must be attempting to witness for the great Truth in which i believe, and therefore have every right to post.



Originally Posted by Lacunas Quell
i iF i WanTeD to TYpE lIkE ThiS i WouLD Do Ii AlL tHe tiMe aND tHeRE IS nOThIng YoU cOUlD dO ABoUt iT.


Well, in my particular case, there are several things that I can do about it.

I believe without doubt that you could, although I don't believe you would have a reasonable cause unless I really did type like that all the time... because it is annoying and I realize that. I was simply proving the point that how I type is my choice, and it's unfair to judge my character and personality because I choose type differently. It's almost like never picking the short fat kid to play kickball... sure he's fat, probably can't run fast... but that fat li'l' f'ck'r can kick the shizznit out of the ball, but because no one ever gave him a chance, no one will get to know what a great kickball player he is. That analogy was in NO way meant to hurt or harm anyone who is overweight or who may suffer with a weight problem... simply stating the point that just because someone is different doesn't make them any less of a person.

I really hope you don't ban me or mute me or what have you. I do, however, have a HUGE favor to ask. Can you change my user name for me? I forgot that Lacunas is not the plural form of Lacuna, and I would greatly appreciate if you could change the 's' in Lacunas to an 'e' to make it Lacunae. When you have time, or feel like it... or... think about it... but please? It's really bugging me. I would just create another account but I do remember reading that wasn't recommended and to ask a mod for help with changing a user name.




Originally Posted by Lacunas Quell
wtf dude? seriously...?

i think you have this thread confused with another one. this is not the petty argument thread. i put up with petty arguments a lot in my ex-forums... it got old fast. sure i had a few good laughs at the people trying to make me feel stupid... but i know i'm not stupid. i'm very learned. i was learned well in skool. huked on fonicks werked 4 me!

i'm not an idiot and i don't appreciate you insinuating that i am one.


You have contradicted yourself. You claim to be posting only for your own enjoyment and now you claim that this is not the petty argument thread. Yet it is exactly that. When you post disjointed and largely incoherent ramblings, using an irritating style, in a forum dedicated to arguing, it is pretty much a guaranteed outcome that you will encounter petty arguments. You have posted no grand thesis to be debated, so the only thing left is petty argumentation.

It was never my intention to start this thread for petty arguing. The title is not "The petty argument thread--please pick on me and allow me to defend myself". When people insult my intelligence I believe I have a right to digress from the topic and defend myself. I do not find my style of typing irritating. It is meant to be taken lightheartedly and without any hard feelings. I do, however, get irritated and will intentionally type in an irritating manner if I feel mocked. That's just the way I react towards things, but I do my absolute best not to insult or say anything hateful or hurtful. I have no intention or desire to hurt anyone's feelings. My grand thesis is my first post. Please take note of the first reply and how I responded and how that person replied to my response. The first post was meant to be discouraging, and strongly implied that absolutely no one would be interested in this thread. Not only was this person wrong, because some people have shown an interest in this post, but this person was not attempting, in anyway, to discuss my post any further. This is why I stated that I type for my own satisfaction, because I know not everyone will appreciate or participate in further discussion. Therefore this thread is not for those who want to pick on me, or start petty arguments (which I find an insatiable need to get involved with because this thread is sort of kind of like my turf, and I don't appreciate being disrespected on my turf... I haven't even been to any other threads because I've been so involved in this one, and when I do get a chance to participate in another thread it will not be to start petty argument about someone's choice of topic or the way they type), but this thread is for those who are interested in religious banter and as an opportunity for me to do as I've been commanded by God and to " ...Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature".



Originally Posted by Lacunas Quell
I have every right to post in this forum. That is why this forum is here. If you don't want to read my posts, please, don't even click on a thread that I have created. No one is forcing you to come in here. DO NOT tell me what I can, cannot, will or will not do.
. . .
By the way... this will be the only post where I use proper capitalization. If it bothers you SO much, then please feel free to f'ck off.


There are a few rules in this forum, however. One is to limit attacks to challenging statements while refraining from direct attacks on other posters. You will, therefore, refrain from telling anyone to fuck off in the future.

I understand the forum rules, and I respect the rules. In my defense, and I'm not trying to be an @$$ or jerk about this... but... I did not directly tell this person to f'ck off. I implied that if they are so bothered by me, then they have every God giving free-will right to f'ck off. I did not tell this person to f'ck off. If this person desired to f'ck off, it wouldn't bother me, and I would not try to refrain them from f'ckin' off because they made the decision to "f'ck off", not because I said they had to or because I demanded it. In no way was I demanding or implying that I wanted this person to f'ck off, nor was I encouraging them to do so. Simply stating that they have my permission not to feel obligated to continue to post off topic in the thread i created, and it wouldn't hurt my feelings if they wanted to "f'ck off".

One other thing, and like I said, I'm not trying be an @$$ or challenge authority in anyway, I am simply trying to make my intentions and thought processes understood. I didn't necessarily tell anyone to "fuck" off. f'ck could be several other words besides "fuck"... i.e. Flock, Flick, Fleck, Frick, and/or Flack. I don't believe it would have been considered a direct attack if i told him to flack off. I would then be telling the person to whom I said "Flack off" to, that they are free to publicize or promote off whatever they so please. So in that case, I was asking this person to stay and publicize or promote their ideas freely. I have no desire whatsoever to attack a person directly... not even in the BBQ pit.

However, if you still feel I was directly attacking this person, I am sorry, and I will be more careful with my wording.

= = =

That said, to EVERYONE ELSE, Lacunas Quell makes a correct observation in the last quote: no one is compelled to respond to this stuff.

Given the nature of this board, I realize that some number of you cannot resist picking at scabs or probing broken teeth with your tongues, but do recognize, up front, that you are all just playing the same game he is and don't come back posting, (or reporting), in indignation when he does not change his style or go away.

[ /Moderating ]

I was not playing any game, at any time. Games are for fun. It was not fun defending myself against people who attacked me and my intelligence AND then have the nerve to report (just an assumption that I was reported by someone) me for defending myself. I don't want to report anyone for anything and while I strongly believe I had every right to report a couple people, I did not, because I don't want people to get in trouble for something so, so, so, SO, SO SO SO, futile.

thank you for moderating... and please try to remember to fix my name when you can, or at least give me the info on what to do to get it changed to Lacunae. I'm still a newb here, and this is a much different setup than the last forums I posted in.

Lacunae Quell
03-29-2009, 04:51 PM
Originally Posted by Lacunas Quell
If it bothers you SO much, then please feel free to f'ck off.

Thank you for demonstrating your full capacity for thoughtful and intelligent discussion, civilised debate and fair reasoning.

You and Kanicbird are just made for each other.

I would gladly demonstrate my ability to hold intelligent discussion with those who give me the chance. If the person whom I said that to was attempting to have an intelligent conversation with me, I know, without doubt, that I would NOT have said that to this person.

p.s. I am not trying to tell this person that. I am simply providing what I said in an earlier post for documentation and to lessen the chance of someone being all like "WTF!?" with confusion... much like I am about said Kanicbird.

Voyager
03-29-2009, 04:55 PM
Lenny Bruce:


One of those bits had it that we killed him because he didn't want to be a doctor. It happened in the basement, during a party.

The inspiration for my bit, but Bruce didn't do Unleavenedworth.

glee
03-29-2009, 04:56 PM
Welcome to the StraightDope.
Here you will find a well-educated group of posters with a great deal of knowledge between them. (Have a look at various posts to see this.)



I have my doubts about that statement. I believe I am one of the most intelligent persons alive(Lacunas is proof of that fo'shizzle, lol), and who are you to say I am not? Go ahead. Call me a liar ;). I might not be as "educated" as some people... but I'm intelligent nonetheless. There may very well be some brilliant and well educated posters with a great deal of knowledge... but not everyone has a great deal of wisdom and most certainly, as I have noticed from the first reply to my post, not everyone shows a great deal of understanding.


The proof of that statement is (as I said) in the posts on this messageboard.
Interestingly my statement says nothing about your intellectual prowess, yet you obviously think it does.
So you need to work on your comprehension.


Oh, believe me, my friend... MANY people believe that man is the descendant of a primate, and that is what I meant, and I believe you know what I meant.


Who are these MANY people? :confused:
Fundamentalists believe God created man about 6000 years ago.
Scientists have proof that man and apes share a common ancestor.


Man was created in the image of God... not in the image of a simian anthropoid. IMPO, humankind bears absolutely NO resemblance to primates... c'mon! Fo'shizzle?


Perhaps you should look at the genes, rather than the facial resemblance.


If no one believes man is a descendant of a great ape, or a great ape-like creature, please explain why great apes and humans are grouped together in the hominid family, and why "Some researchers go so far as to include chimpanzees and gorillas in the genus Homo along with humans".http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hominidae#Taxonomic_history


Because they share a common ancestor.
Sheesh - where did you get the idea that man was descended from apes?
Why do you think that sharing a genus means one is descended from the other?

Voyager
03-29-2009, 05:00 PM
Well, if he rose from the dead, he's clearly either a zombie or a vampire. So there's no telling how long he could last. So he'd only be technically dead.

Buffy the Deity Slayer. I'd watch that.

ToeJam
03-29-2009, 05:05 PM
LQ- contact tubadiva if you want to get your name changed.

ianzin
03-29-2009, 06:01 PM
I would gladly demonstrate my ability to hold intelligent discussion with those who give me the chance. When do you intend to start? This is a two page thread already, and we haven't seen any sign of anything even distantly related to intelligent discussion.

Besides, before we can have an intelligent discussion about any of this, we have to agree what rules are in play. If we don't agree the rules, it's like two guys with a deck of cards, and one thinks the game is blackjack while the other thinks it is poker... not going to be much of a game, is it?

So, first of all, are we to base the discussion using valid logical reasoning and arguments based on empirical, independently verifiable evidence?

If not, what other rules do you suggest we base the discussion on?

If so, then it is self-evidently the case that there is no significance to your question unless Jesus was the son of an entity called God. This too is evidently a moot point unless there is an entity called God. So, first things first, please present your evidence or reasoning supporting the contention that there is an entity called God who/which has the characteristics that you ascribe to him or to it.

After all, if you want to have an intelligent discussion, we have to deal with first things first.

Locrian
03-29-2009, 06:06 PM
Lucanus, one great thing about this debate forum is we don't care about your life story, we only care about your debate. Yes, I think you're witnessing, not a problem, but what's to debate?

Try this one on for size: Jesus never existed. He is a myth. The bible, Qur'an and Mormon book of fantasy is exactly that, fantasy, maybe mixed with a little hint on what fellow man has in store for politics.

First I need you to prove to me he actually existed WITHOUT quoting from the foolish examples you have deemed "the word of god." Even if you can, please explain why this god sent his only son to be not just murdered, but destroyed through methods we've only seen since the "Saw" movies. Couldn't this god have just changed the rules?
"Fuck original sin!", says god, and we all live happily ever after.

Or, even if he DID exist, couldn't he have learned to read? I DO know history shows us
(not tells us, but SHOWS us) that there were plenty of signs on walls telling sun-bleached idiots, like your Jesus, that speaking of other gods will lead to their own death. This one fact tells me Jesus was a large and uneducated idiot. Why should I follow one of the dumbest men-- or creations of god-- as an example?

One thing that led me to investigate and believe that god is a crock of shit is exactly what you are going through right now. You were told the answers are all in here-- the bible-- yet, you found none. Congratulations. This is a good thing. So, you start asking and investigating other religious folk and get the same nonsense. You watch the news, see the violence.... if you keep investigating, you'll eventually find salvation...

... when you throw the fucking holy books away.

I wish you my best on your quest.

Locrian
03-29-2009, 06:22 PM
I truly believe that had Jesus not laid down His own life, He would have lived forever. Sin is the cause of Death. Since Jesus was without sin, there would be no natural way for Him to die. Sin had no power over Him. The only reason He died is because He laid down His life for His friends and enemies.

Okay, here's the FIRST post you TYPED instead of TALKED. Here's something we can debate.

You believe that Jesus might've lived forever. Sin is the cause of death. Sin had no power over Jesus. From these beliefs you claim to have, I can only take it you got this from what you call Holy Scripture. You are assuming from a source which CAN NOT BE VERIFIED FOR AUTHENTICITY that Jesus was without sin.

Now, don't quote something that can easily be debated (the bible, etc.), but tell me this one thing: Why is god such an asshole to create sin in the first place?

Locrian
03-29-2009, 06:58 PM
What would any of the authors of the Bible have gained through lying? What would it profit them, and why would they find it necessary to state something that wasn't true? If John truly believe in God and followed the teachings of Jesus Christ, how would John benefit from lying about Jesus Christ, especially if John believed he would be spending eternity with Jesus?

I can think of a thousand reasons, LQ. First, POWER.

Have you seen Apocalypto? Shitty Gibson film, yes, but one thing that strikes me as being truly religious is when the elders (executors of slaves) ask the sky if these human sacrifices have been enough? The eclipse happens and the executor tells his many, many minioins "God is satisfied." They cheer and let the rest go.

Why do I think this is religious? Because we already know that the elders have studied the stars and KNOW when any eclipse-- solar, lunar, what have you-- WILL HAPPEN!
The POWER OF KNOWLEDGE-- something YOUR god supposedly tried to keep us from getting at the fig tree in Genesis-- is true power.

Religion and the story of a higher power is just that. Most humans are gullible. Some are not. Those that are willing to believe something without proof are simply... dumb.
If I killed your best friend and I did it "because god told me to", wouldn't you at least guess schizophrenia before thinking I was telling the truth about god talking to me?

Two questions for you: One, how old do you think the planet Earth is?
Two, hasn't there been at least one, small, almost insignificant event in your life to question faith? (Remember, faith requires no logic, reason or knowledge.)

tomndebb
03-29-2009, 07:12 PM
and please try to remember to fix my name when you can, or at least give me the info on what to do to get it changed to Lacunae. I'm still a newb here, and this is a much different setup than the last forums I posted in.E-mail an administrator--TubaDiva (tubadiva@aol.com ) and SkipMagic (sdmb@skipmagic.net ) are frequent targets of such requests--telling that person you messed up your name when you entered it, and request the correction.

= = =

As to the rest of your rationalizations and attempts at justification for your posting: don't bother. I have attempted to point out a few realities of this board on the off chance that you actually wish to participate. As long as you do not engage in prohibited behavior, you will be permitted to post, but your defenses and justifications are specious and you would do better to save your typing time for those who wish to engage you rather than those of us whose duty compels us to read it.

[ /Modding ]

Lacunae Quell
03-29-2009, 07:23 PM
The scriptures say He was already dead, so how could a soldier deliver a death blow to a already dead body, one that the Spirit had left. I's true that the soldier intended to inflict a death blow, but could only release blood and water from the corpse.

The other points I am in agreement of.

According to some people, Jesus could have been lying and faking His death for all the Romans knew, since Christians are so notorious for faking and lying about things... According to the word of God, however, this was to fulfill a prophecy that Jesus' bones would not be broken and that they would look upon the one whom they pierced. The soldiers were also simply doing their job. They may have watched Jesus give up the Ghost... but they were conducting a professional execution... they made sure to stick the proverbial fork in Him 'cause He was done(that isn't meant to be disrespectful to my Lord and Saviour. He suffered and died on that cross for me).

The reason for the soldiers sticking Jesus with the spear and seeing the water and blood pour out is as follows...

"For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced".--John 19:36-37

and furthermore... the Scriptures state that...

"But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water"--John 19:34

"This is the One who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood. It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth"--1 John 5:6.

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one"--1 John 5:7

"the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement"--1 John 5:8

the Water, Blood, and Spirit were symbolic of the Holy Trinity. How? Well... How does Genesis start? "In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth, and the Earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep. (here it is) And the Spirit of God moved across the face of the (yup, you know it) WATER. Jesus was God incarnate... God in the flesh... and what is something the Bible says cannot enter into Heaven? the flesh and the BLOOD. Jesus was the Blood. Then the Spirit was when Jesus died and gave up the Ghost. Jesus no longer was flesh and blood when died. He became a SPIRIT.


(this would be a nice time to note that in the opening post I stated that symbolism is a powerful tool... 100% of prophecy and much of the scriptures in the Holy Bible are symbolism). A more secular and primitive way of observing symbolism (and a little rabbit trail just for $#!ts 'n' giggles) is the four elements, Earth, Air, Water, and Fire... if you think about it... those four elements make up each human body. Our bodies are something like 60% water if I am remembering correctly, the Bible says man was created from the dust of the Earth and science agrees that many elements found in our body are also found in the earth (i.e. calcium, iron, potassium, etc.), we breath the Air to take in oxygen (the Bible refers to this as the Breathe of God)... and now I know someone who reads this will be thinking "good luck with the Fire, humans have no fire in them". The fire is the Spirit or Soul of man... the essence of his/her being. IMPO, this fire resides in the depths of the heart. Have you ever been so sad, or in so much pain, or felt so happy that you felt it in your heart? I believe each man has a burning fire of passion and desire in his/her heart. I honestly don't know if this is the same type of... but there is also plasma in our blood. Fire and Lightning are both forms of plasma. like I just said though... I don't know if it's the same type of plasma because I never thought of that until just now, so I haven't researched it. I'm sure it's different. but... still a pretty interesting coincidence.






My take on it is He died because we sinned, as we are made in a way that Jesus has to love us so intensely, to the point that He would be willing to die to get us back.

I agree with this. Jesus was sent specifically by the Father to die for the sins of mankind. In Jesus' most passionate moment of prayer he said "My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass away from me. Yet, not as I will, but as you will" and "My Father, if it is not possible for this to pass away except I drink it, then let your will be done." --Matthew 26:39 and Matthew 26:42, respectively. Jesus knew what was going down and He said to the Father (my paraphrase) "Daddy, I'm really getting kind of nervous about taking on the sins of ALL men, if it is possible, could we just forget all about this and think of a Plan B and get someone else to do it? But Dad I don't want to do things my way... I want to do things your way"... and then He goes and wakes up His sleepy disciples, scolds them for falling asleep on Him during His time of sorrow... then goes back and prays to God some more saying (paraphrase) "Daddy, it doesn't seem like anyone else could take on this burden except me, so Let's do things the way You planned". That is when Jesus knew for certain He was to die because of the sins that I've committed, the sins that you've committed, and the sins of every other person who ever has lived, was living at that time, and ever would live in the future.

Principalities and powers (demons), operating both spiritually, and through people tried to contain Jesus (and His message), trying to trap Him, without much success at first as the Father was protecting Him because Jesus was following the Holy Spirit. Finally they were able to do so on the cross. Jesus was unable to physically move, most likely would have great difficulty talking, and surrounded by those who mocked Him, though his physical needs were being met - though in great torment, such as offered a drink when He thirsted. It could be said that the cross is a form of ongoing torment, not execution. The execution is another step. Trapped in this way there was no escape except through death.

I agree with you about this too and would like to explain a little more in detail what went down. A crucifixion was not only an excruciatingly painful means of torment and execution, but also was considered the most humiliating death, and furthermore it is written in Deuteronomy 21:23 "His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God;)" and is explained in Galatians 3:13 that "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree". Jesus wasn't hanged on a tree with leaves... but c'mon... we all know where the wood for the cross came from... wood comes from, yuppers, trees. This is why Jesus said to God "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me"? God cannot look upon sin and the moment Jesus was hung on the cross He became a curse and took upon the sins of all mankind and God could no longer look upon Jesus and protect Him. This is when the demons and powers of darkness and principalities were able to take hold of Jesus, and because Jesus took on the sins of ALL men, Jesus' Spirit was taken down to the depths of the Earth (aka Hades) by those evil spirits of darkness Matthew 12:40 "For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth". For those three days and nights He witnessed to those who had passed away under the old law and were trapped in Hades because of the old law and He took the keys of death and Hades upon His resurrection... "I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades"--Revelation 1:18.


This death happened interesting enough because He allowed a single devil in the flesh (Judas Iscariot) into his 'house' knowingly and breaking bread with the enemy. Jesus offered His body and blood to the 11 + one devil. IMHO the motivation for allowing a devil in was judged by God, and Jesus found blameless as His intention was salvation, as opposed to give into temptation as God looks at the heart. By allowing this single devil in Jesus accepted death (again IMHO).

I partially agree with you here, but i don't completely understand your POV here. Jesus willing and knowingly broke bread with a Satan, and Jesus knew very well that Judas Iscariot would betray the Son of Man. However, this is not Jesus allowing a devil to overpower Him and I don't believe this was Jesus accepting death, because Jesus accepted to drink from the cup of death as He prayed in the garden. Jesus loved Judas Iscariot all the same... and Jesus was giving Judas an opportunity to repent. Let's check out that account real quick...

Matthew 26:20-25

20 Now when the evening was come, he sat down with the twelve.
21 And as they did eat, he said, Verily I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.
22 And they were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I?
23 And he answered and said, He that dippeth his hand with me in the dish, the same shall betray me.
24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.
25 Then Judas, which betrayed him, answered and said, Master, is it I? He said unto him, Thou hast said.

Jesus knew Judas Iscariot was the one who was going to betray Him. However, Judas didn't expect that Jesus knew it was him... read verse 22-25 again... in verse 22 all the disciples began asking if it was one them. In verse 23 Jesus says "it is He who dippeth his hand with me in the dish. Well, they were all supping with Jesus, so Jesus never said exactly which disciple would betray Him.

In verse 24 Jesus said (paraphrased) "I will continue on with the same plans as before, but I pity the man who betrays me...". Finally, in verse 25 Judas, who knew he had already made plans and accepted money to betray Jesus asks "Master, is it I"? to which Jesus replied (paraphrased) "You are the one who has said so"(meaning Judas already made the decision in his heart to betray his Lord). Jesus was hinting to Judas that He knew Judas would betray Him, and Jesus warned Judas that the man who betrayed Him would wish he had never been born. Jesus was giving Judas and opportunity to repent, but because Judas had completely lost sight of God's plan, he could not repent because of the power Satan had over him.

Because Judas was ignorant of God's plan, Judas went through with the betrayal thinking it was to protect Jesus' life. Judas didn't know they were going to kill Jesus, in fact, Judas didn't even know it was Jesus' destiny to die for the sins of men (He couldn't grasp it when Jesus foretold His death to His disciples). Judas believed Jesus was trying to restore the kingdom of Jerusalem in this life. Judas wasn't aware that Jesus was sent to conquer death.

After Judas officially betrayed Jesus in the garden (and then the other disciples knew it was Judas)... "...Judas, His betrayer, seeing that He had been condemned, was remorseful and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, saying, "I have sinned by betraying innocent blood." And they said, "What is that to us? You see to it!" Then he threw down the pieces of silver in the temple and departed, and went and hanged himself"--Matthew 27:3-5

Judas was so overwhelmed with guilt for condemning his Lord and King to death that he killed himself by hanging himself from a tree. Let us recall what was discussed earlier "Cursed is he who hangs from a tree" and what Jesus said at the supper "it would have been better if the betrayer had never been born".

Judas Iscariot wasn't the only disciple Jesus rebuked as a devil. Mark 8:33 says "But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men". This is why I believe that Jesus didn't accept death when supping with a devil, but was giving a friend whom was possessed by Satan one last chance at repentance. Judas was looking forward to the "riches of the Kingdom" that Jesus had spoken of... but Judas thought it was worldly riches, and was ultimately blinded to the will and plan of God by his greed and desire for worldly riches.

p.s. I was informally introduced with you earlier. I wasn't aware I was talking to you. Hello! I hear we have a lot in common... I think we should collaborate. HAHA... perhaps we should discuss preparing weekly sermons and/or Bible studies... pffft... I bet these people would be absolutely THRILLED to participate in something like that.

Guinastasia
03-29-2009, 07:32 PM
Bob Marley killed the Son-but he didn't kill the Father.

Lacunae Quell
03-29-2009, 07:53 PM
Hello, Lacunas. Welcome to the board. You're going to find some hostility here because, obviously, this is not a new topic. Other people have witnessed their faith here before so there's an attitude of "we're going to go through this again?". Keep in mind that virtually everyone is aware that Jesus died on the cross so you're not telling anyone something they didn't already know. What I presume you're trying to do is convince people of the meaning of that act.

The writing style isn't helping your case. One of the conventions of this board is we like people to make the effort to write their posts well, including using proper capitalization, spelling, and punctuation.

And try to trim things down a bit. Don't feel the need to put everything into a single post. Figure out what your main point is and post that. If you put too much into a single post, that main point can be lost in the crowd of words. You can always come back in future posts and add in other ideas as the thread grows.

Hello, Li'l' Nemo!

Thank you so much for the warm welcome without the hostility like I received from some of the others. I also appreciate the tips about how to communicate with the people on this forum. This is only the second forum group i have ever participated in, and the first one wasn't so demanding... but I assume the people here may be a little more mature and older.

I was almost positive I wouldn't be bringing up anything new... but I can assure you, if you read my posts you will see that God has blessed me with a unique way of presenting His Gospel that not many people have done here before. Like I said in the original post... I'm not a traditional Christian. I don't want to preach... I want to teach. I want my mind to be challenged by others and I want to challenge the minds of others.

I'm deeply sorry that I have long posts. I truly feel the need to say all I say, because I try my absolute best to leave no room for error. Try as I may it is nearly impossible for me to trim things down. I can see being turned off by a large amount of reading, but I know some people will read through my entire posts, and it is for those people I am typing. I type for those who will appreciate it and think on it. Reading is a wonderful thing, and I don't believe I am the worlds greatest typist or writer, but I also don't believe I'm as bad as certain people make me out to be. They are just complainers with nothing better to do than complain about how much time I'm wasting, but as I told the people in the first forums I was involved in, I'm doing this for that one person who will take the time to read and will soak up the things I type, because they have the desire to learn the Word of God, and I have the desire to teach it (as well as learn more... I learned things today that I never knew). Even if no one reads my posts, I still benefit from typing them... it's a win win situation for me.

I'm not so much here to convict as I am to reach out to those who have a desire to learn or discuss these things. I'm not here to make non-believers believers... I'm here to encourage the believers to continue to believe and to sharpen our minds with the knowledge and wisdom of God by conversing with each other.

I'm quite positive I already have "enemies", but I also know I already have friends.

Thank you again so much for the kind welcome and the helpful tips. I will try my absolute best to trim these puppies down... but no promises. Once my fingers start typing they don't seem to be able to stop.

Locrian
03-29-2009, 07:56 PM
From your reply to kanicbird (post #77), it appears you would rather vent about what you believe with those who already agree with you. If you were looking to give us your OP and wait for all of us to say something like, "Where has this guy BEEN! I feel so relieved! My life now has PURPOSE!", then lookup "debate."

From your responses to glee, he/she was just being nice, you flinched.

I would also like to point out that even kanicbird has his own opinions, so even a believer might surprise you too...

Can't wait to hear your responses to my posts.

Locrian
03-29-2009, 07:59 PM
Hello, Li'l' Nemo!

Thank you so much for the warm welcome without the hostility like I received from some of the others. I also appreciate the tips about how to communicate with the people on this forum. This is only the second forum group i have ever participated in, and the first one wasn't so demanding... but I assume the people here may be a little more mature and older.

I was almost positive I wouldn't be bringing up anything new... but I can assure you, if you read my posts you will see that God has blessed me with a unique way of presenting His Gospel that not many people have done here before. Like I said in the original post... I'm not a traditional Christian. I don't want to preach... I want to teach. I want my mind to be challenged by others and I want to challenge the minds of others.

I'm deeply sorry that I have long posts. I truly feel the need to say all I say, because I try my absolute best to leave no room for error. Try as I may it is nearly impossible for me to trim things down. I can see being turned off by a large amount of reading, but I know some people will read through my entire posts, and it is for those people I am typing. I type for those who will appreciate it and think on it. Reading is a wonderful thing, and I don't believe I am the worlds greatest typist or writer, but I also don't believe I'm as bad as certain people make me out to be. They are just complainers with nothing better to do than complain about how much time I'm wasting, but as I told the people in the first forums I was involved in, I'm doing this for that one person who will take the time to read and will soak up the things I type, because they have the desire to learn the Word of God, and I have the desire to teach it (as well as learn more... I learned things today that I never knew). Even if no one reads my posts, I still benefit from typing them... it's a win win situation for me.

I'm not so much here to convict as I am to reach out to those who have a desire to learn or discuss these things. I'm not here to make non-believers believers... I'm here to encourage the believers to continue to believe and to sharpen our minds with the knowledge and wisdom of God by conversing with each other.

I'm quite positive I already have "enemies", but I also know I already have friends.

Thank you again so much for the kind welcome and the helpful tips. I will try my absolute best to trim these puppies down... but no promises. Once my fingers start typing they don't seem to be able to stop.

"Jesus wept." is the shortest quote in the silly bible. When you write like that, more are likely to read. :)

Animastryfe
03-29-2009, 08:11 PM
Look, listen. You're obviously making a case for something, right? I mean, that's why you posted your unreadable screed on a message board rather than your own personal blog. You want to persuade people. Well, I can tell you that you'll never, ever, persuade anyone of anything if you keep posting the way you're doing.

Fact is, inattention to spelling, grammar, and capitalisation, in a written medium, are clear indications that the author is either stupid or crazy. Or both. Now, I don't know you. You may be a genius. All I can tell is that you're coming across very differently. I mean, imagine if you were in a bookshop and you picked up a book full of huge paragraphs with massive run-on sentences and virtually no capitalisation. You'd probably put it straight back without getting to the end of the first page. And the fact is that you'd likely be right to do so because it probably would have been written by someone stupid, or crazy. Or both.

Bottom line: If you don't care enough to format your posts properly, no-one else will care enough to read them. And that'll be your fault, not anybody else's. And considering we're on a message board, that rather defeats the object of you being here. If you just love typing so much then get a blog. Hell, just open up an MSWord document and go nuts. I don't care. Just please don't post here until you can be bothered to make your posts fit to read. At the end of the day, it's just the courteous thing to do.

Because we're both guests, I shall have to ask this here:

Do you mind if I save your post somewhere and use it (with credit given) when I encounter posts like the OP's on other message boards? Your post is one of the best of its type that I have seen in recent memory, and it's general enough to apply to the majority of unreadable posts out there.

DocCathode
03-29-2009, 08:20 PM
I believe Kanicbird killed Jesus. After traveling to Gethsemane in a Tardis, he crucified the carpenter in order to validate his world view.

Lacunae Quell
03-29-2009, 08:31 PM
It's a collection of primitive mythology, and that's all. It's not especially profound, and it isn't particularly truthful. Admitting that it's your "sole source of information regarding anything I discuss" is an admission of extreme ignorance.

in your opinion! ...but I guess since you choose not to believe in God and the Word of God that your opinion is all you have... pity.

He does fail pretty badly at existing.

all I have to say to that is... just wait... as It is written "Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord"... just wait and see.

We ARE primates, like it or not. Even if all the evidence for evolution is a Satanic Conspiracy and we were created, we were created as primates. Our anatomy and our genetics are those of a primate.

That being said, the evidence for evolution in general, and of humans descending from apes specifically, is overwhelming. You don't like it ? Too bad; reality is not a matter of opinion.

You and I obviously don't have the same first parents. I'm sorry to burst your bubble of "scientific fact", son, but I am a descendant of Adam and Eve. I don't doubt that some men were evolved from primates and multiplied throughout the Earth... but, I'm not one of those men. My first parents were created in the image and likeness of the Holy Trinity and first father was created from the dust of the ground and first mother was created from his rib. OH! this is a great opportunity for me to mention the fact I believe in EBEs... that's Extraterrestrial Biological Entities, for those who weren't aware. Laugh and shake your head if you will... but tell me, since you are obviously more intelligent than I, what creatures dwell in the seas of Neptune? What is the name of the lonely yellow star which rests on the edge of the universe? While we're on the subject of stars, what is the EXACT total of heavenly bodies? I will eagerly be waiting your answers.

obviously, Der, you've never tripped on LSD and experienced everything you recognized as reality crumble right beneath your feet, dropping you into a bottomless spiraling pit. Don't sit there and tell me how I've experienced life. I'm sure I've got experiences on you that you may never experience, but vice versa... and not all my experiences were with mind altering substances. DO NOT EVER TELL ANYONE WHAT THEY HAVE OR HAVE NOT EXPERIENCED! you don't know me at all, friend. All you know is what I choose to reveal in what I type. You see ignorance when you read what I type, I see foolishness and hopelessness on top of ignorance when I read what you type. I am sure you are an intelligent Human specimen... but to tell me what reality id, when you yourself aren't fully aware, is rather presumptuous. Reality is a different experience for each human. Reality is life, my friend, and some people just don't get life.

Oh... and isn't it a fact that the best science is experience? I'm still but an infant in the course of eternity, but I know where I come from and I know where I am going. How dare you tell me otherwise! How dare you!

Bryan Ekers
03-29-2009, 08:31 PM
But who shot the deputy?

DocCathode
03-29-2009, 08:37 PM
Laugh and shake your head if you will...


Can do!

obviously, Der, you've never tripped on LSD and experienced everything you recognized as reality crumble right beneath your feet, dropping you into a bottomless spiraling pit.

So you've done a bunch of acid. That explains so much.

Der Trihs
03-29-2009, 08:53 PM
in your opinion! ...but I guess since you choose not to believe in God and the Word of God that your opinion is all you have... pity. Oh, I have more than that. Such as all the scientific facts and historical records that contradict the Bible. The Bible's fiction, whether you like it or not. Not even very entertaining fiction, in my opinion.

all I have to say to that is... just wait... as It is written "Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord"... just wait and see.No, YOU'LL wait. I have better things to do than wait for an impossibility. And I wouldn't "confess" that anyone or anything is "lord". Not without something on the order of torture, at least.

You and I obviously don't have the same first parents. I'm sorry to burst your bubble of "scientific fact", son, but I am a descendant of Adam and Eve.No, you aren't. They never existed.

I don't doubt that some men were evolved from primates and multiplied throughout the Earth... but, I'm not one of those men. Hmmm. And those men who evolved from animals, who you no doubt think inferior, wouldn't happen to be those with a different skin color or nationality ? Or those that disagree with you ?

OH! this is a great opportunity for me to mention the fact I believe in EBEs... that's Extraterrestrial Biological Entities, for those who weren't aware. Laugh and shake your head if you will... but tell me, since you are obviously more intelligent than I, what creatures dwell in the seas of Neptune? What is the name of the lonely yellow star which rests on the edge of the universe? While we're on the subject of stars, what is the EXACT total of heavenly bodies? I will eagerly be waiting your answers.Neptune is unlikely to have life. There is no edge to the universe. And the latter is an unknown but large number.

obviously, Der, you've never tripped on LSD and experienced everything you recognized as reality crumble right beneath your feet, dropping you into a bottomless spiraling pit.No; and I haven't hit my head on concrete until I couldn't stand up either. I somehow doubt my brain is worse off for the lack of either experience.

Reality is a different experience for each human. No. Reality is what it is. It's the same for everyone.

I'm still but an infant in the course of eternity, but I know where I come from and I know where I am going. How dare you tell me otherwise! How dare you!* Yawn * There's nothing "daring" about pointing out in this thread that there is no God and there is no afterlife. That's what all the evidence shows, like it or not. You want to know where you are going ? Assuming immortality isn't cracked by science relatively soon, you'll die, and you'll be nonexistent. That's all.

Locrian
03-29-2009, 09:04 PM
in your opinion! ...but I guess since you choose not to believe in God and the Word of God that your opinion is all you have... pity.



all I have to say to that is... just wait... as It is written "Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord"... just wait and see.



You and I obviously don't have the same first parents. I'm sorry to burst your bubble of "scientific fact", son, but I am a descendant of Adam and Eve. I don't doubt that some men were evolved from primates and multiplied throughout the Earth... but, I'm not one of those men. My first parents were created in the image and likeness of the Holy Trinity and first father was created from the dust of the ground and first mother was created from his rib. OH! this is a great opportunity for me to mention the fact I believe in EBEs... that's Extraterrestrial Biological Entities, for those who weren't aware. Laugh and shake your head if you will... but tell me, since you are obviously more intelligent than I, what creatures dwell in the seas of Neptune? What is the name of the lonely yellow star which rests on the edge of the universe? While we're on the subject of stars, what is the EXACT total of heavenly bodies? I will eagerly be waiting your answers.

obviously, Der, you've never tripped on LSD and experienced everything you recognized as reality crumble right beneath your feet, dropping you into a bottomless spiraling pit. Don't sit there and tell me how I've experienced life. I'm sure I've got experiences on you that you may never experience, but vice versa... and not all my experiences were with mind altering substances. DO NOT EVER TELL ANYONE WHAT THEY HAVE OR HAVE NOT EXPERIENCED! you don't know me at all, friend. All you know is what I choose to reveal in what I type. You see ignorance when you read what I type, I see foolishness and hopelessness on top of ignorance when I read what you type. I am sure you are an intelligent Human specimen... but to tell me what reality id, when you yourself aren't fully aware, is rather presumptuous. Reality is a different experience for each human. Reality is life, my friend, and some people just don't get life.

Oh... and isn't it a fact that the best science is experience? I'm still but an infant in the course of eternity, but I know where I come from and I know where I am going. How dare you tell me otherwise! How dare you!

Yay! We finally get to the debate!

LQ, how a debate is done, you pose that you are a descendant of Adam & Eve.
Adam & Eve is a fable. You have to prove that Adam & Eve existed before you can say you are a descendant of them. Please provide a cite that proves they exist, AND NO IT CANNOT BE THE BIBLE.

I'm guessing you aren't Asian. If Adam & Eve are the original bloodline for everyone,
how did all those millions of Asians acquire a dual epicanthic fold on they're eyelids?

If you are white like a southern bible-basher, you probably didn't come from Adam & eve either. You'd most likely look like an Egyptian. Dark eyes, have you?

Der Trihs
03-29-2009, 09:11 PM
I'm guessing you aren't Asian. If Adam & Eve are the original bloodline for everyone,
how did all those millions of Asians acquire a dual epicanthic fold on they're eyelids?Perhaps he thinks that they are one of those other, lesser groups of people that evolved from animals instead of being made in God's image like him.

Lacunae Quell
03-29-2009, 09:14 PM
Originally Posted by Lacunas Quell
CS Lewis said Jesus was either a "Liar, Lunatic, or Lord". I have chosen to believe He is Lord... i can find no reason to believe He was a liar or a lunatic.

This implies that your beliefs are based upon reason, not faith. If you beliefs were based on faith alone, it would be unnecessary for you to have a reason for what you believe; faith requires no proof, so a reason is redundant. So I can only conclude that your faith is weak, and requires additional support for you to maintain your belief; that is why you need a reason to to believe Jesus is lord. If you had faith as small as a mustard seed, you would need no reason.

Our minds are tools of reasoning. With our minds we make choices based on what we believe will result in the best outcome for ourselves and those we care for and love. My ability of reasoning and my faith do not cancel one or the other, or each other out. "Faith is the substance of things hoped for. The evidence of things not seen". I have reasoned with myself and come to the conclusion that Jesus Christ is Historical fact, because men have written about Him and not all were Christian.

I have used reasoning to determine that there is absolutely NO reason to believe Jesus was a liar, because liars go to hell, Jesus would have been a hypocrite... and people were willing to die for Jesus... if people were willing to die for Jesus He was either the greatest conman who ever lived, or He practiced truth and showed the truth to people, and set them free. If Jesus was simply a lunatic, He wouldn't have been crucified... He would've simply been whipped and sent along His way to live in seclusion. Therefore my ability to reason leaves me with no other choice but to confess He is Lord.

Now that I have come to my CONCLUSION of Jesus Christ, I no longer need to reason, because I now believe, without doubt and through faith, that Jesus Christ is Lord, died for my sins and was resurrected from the dead. My faith is what I am hoping for... the things I can't see but know will come to me because they have been promised, and I no longer have to reason with myself to believe in God because once I made my choice, I was given the down payment. Like I told Der... don't tell me what I have or have not experienced. Have you ever experienced the down payment you receive upon being born again? I have and I still have it, and it will be with me for all eternity. I cannot tell you what the down payment is exactly. But it's worth it. It's a kind of peace and comfort... and that's about all I can say... sorry. While I don't have anything to hide or keep secret, you wouldn't believe me if I told you. Just like you doubt my faith. It would be futile to tell you anything more.


You may not be a liar, but you are mistaken.

Says who? You... about... 10 other people on this website and maybe 20 on another website? Compared to the 500+ Christians I have been around in my life do you really think telling me I am mistaken is going to make me jump out of my chair and say "By Golly! All this wasted time having faith in Christ and hoping for eternal life... I could have been having promiscuous sex with beautiful girls and doing any drug of my choice and living life however I want... I was so mistaken"? I think not my friend because not only have I lived that life but I know what I've experienced in life, and for you to tell me otherwise is presumptuous.

You know what I've noticed about Christians and anti-Christs? Christians want to share their Joy and Happiness and Faith and Truth and Eternity with everyone and anyone! Anti-Christs would love nothing more than to rob those people of their Joy and Happiness and Faith and Truth and Eternity. I'm telling you though... you can't convince me or deceive me into believing my faith is vain. It is because of the people who believe that strengthen my faith, and it is because of the people who believe not which strengthen my faith even more.

so if your ultimate goal was to try and trip me up in my OWN words, words that I am well aware I am typing and words that you try to twist me up in to make me look foolish, I'll have you know that it's kiddie stuff that only non-believers get a kick out of. Because non-believers can't understand what a true born again believer experiences by putting their faith in Christ because you continuously try to rob it from those who have it and you attempt to rip up their hopes and faith right in front of their eyes instead of accepting the gift when it is offered to you. You have to learn that for someone who truly believes, that stuff doesn't work. Ever heard the saying "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em"? I seriously hope you start considering joining... you CANNOT beat us. If God is for us, what or who could possibly be against us?

thank you.

=]

p.s. thank you so much for inspiring my next thread!

Locrian
03-29-2009, 09:14 PM
Perhaps he thinks that they are one of those other, lesser groups of people that evolved from animals instead of being made in God's image like him.

Most likely. We'll be hearing "they are descendants of Godzilla!":D

Serioulsly, LQ, Adam & Eve have all these sons, grandsons, great-grandsons...
Where were the women that gave brith to them? Who'd they fuck?

Der Trihs
03-29-2009, 09:38 PM
CS Lewis said Jesus was either a "Liar, Lunatic, or Lord". I have chosen to believe He is Lord... i can find no reason to believe He was a liar or a lunatic.The fact that he talked about how an invisible man in the sky was his daddy might be a clue.

My ability of reasoning and my faith do not cancel one or the other, or each other out. Yes, they do. Faith and reason are opposites and enemies. For example :

I have used reasoning to determine that there is absolutely NO reason to believe Jesus was a liar, because liars go to hell, Jesus would have been a hypocrite... and people were willing to die for Jesus... if people were willing to die for Jesus He was either the greatest conman who ever lived, or He practiced truth and showed the truth to people, and set them free. If Jesus was simply a lunatic, He wouldn't have been crucified... He would've simply been whipped and sent along His way to live in seclusion. Therefore my ability to reason leaves me with no other choice but to confess He is Lord. Complete nonsense. Jesus didn't do anything more impressive than any number of other con men/lunatics. Plenty of people have died for the lies of others, for example, not just for Jesus's lies. Nor is there any reason to think that the Romans wouldn't crucify a lunatic if they felt like it.

Now that I have come to my CONCLUSION of Jesus Christ, I no longer need to reason, because I now believe, without doubt and through faith, that Jesus Christ is Lord, died for my sins and was resurrected from the dead.You never started reasoning. You just decided it was so, you just declared your impossible fantasy to be true and that was that. That's what faith is; the substitution of fantasy for facts and reason.

Like I told Der... don't tell me what I have or have not experienced. Have you ever experienced the down payment you receive upon being born again? I have and I still have it, and it will be with me for all eternity. I cannot tell you what the down payment is exactly. But it's worth it. It's a kind of peace and comfort... and that's about all I can say... sorry. In other words, your delusion makes you feel good. And you don't care, or are incapable of caring if it's true or not. You don't care that it's utterly baseless.

While I don't have anything to hide or keep secret, you wouldn't believe me if I told you. Just like you doubt my faith. It would be futile to tell you anything more. In other words, you want yes men. You can't reveal the "truth" to anyone who doesn't already agree with you. That's one of the many problems with believing utter nonsense; it doesn't survive the presence of skeptics very well.

Says who? You... about... 10 other people on this website and maybe 20 on another website? Compared to the 500+ Christians I have been around in my life do you really think telling me I am mistaken is going to make me jump out of my chair and say "By Golly! All this wasted time having faith in Christ and hoping for eternal life... I could have been having promiscuous sex with beautiful girls and doing any drug of my choice and living life however I want... I was so mistaken"? No, I don't think you and your fellow believers are capable of responding to facts or reason. Nothing will convince you, no matter how obviously wrong you are.

And I notice you just had to falsely equate being an unbeliever with being a promiscuous drug user.

You know what I've noticed about Christians and anti-Christs? Christians want to share their Joy and Happiness and Faith and Truth and Eternity with everyone and anyone! Quite often at the point of a sword or gun, historically. Christians want to spread their religion, because spreading itself at humanity's expense is what Christianity does. It's a disease, the psychological version of a virus or parasite.

Anti-Christs would love nothing more than to rob those people of their Joy and Happiness and Faith and Truth and Eternity. Ah, again with the "Unbelievers are evil !" bit. We can't possibly just think you are WRONG. We have to be driven by malice.

Because non-believers can't understand what a true born again believer experiences by putting their faith in Christ because you continuously try to rob it from those who have it and you attempt to rip up their hopes and faith right in front of their eyes instead of accepting the gift when it is offered to you. You have to learn that for someone who truly believes, that stuff doesn't work. Ever heard the saying "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em"? I seriously hope you start considering joining... you CANNOT beat us. If God is for us, what or who could possibly be against us?Reality. Truth. Sanity.

Guinastasia
03-29-2009, 09:39 PM
But who shot the deputy?


Judas?

Fear Itself
03-29-2009, 09:40 PM
I seriously hope you start considering joining... you CANNOT beat us. What is the one sin your lord says is unforgivable?

Guinastasia
03-29-2009, 09:48 PM
Most likely. We'll be hearing "they are descendants of Godzilla!":D

Serioulsly, LQ, Adam & Eve have all these sons, grandsons, great-grandsons...
Where were the women that gave brith to them? Who'd they fuck?

I'm a descendent of Adam and Steve...

Bryan Ekers
03-29-2009, 09:49 PM
Judas?

That bastard.....

Lacunae Quell
03-29-2009, 09:51 PM
Lacunas Quell
I believe I am one of the most intelligent persons alive(Lacunas is proof of that fo'shizzle, lol), and who are you to say I am not? Go ahead.

Well, just not being aware of the difference of human and apes descending from a common ancestor from humans descending from the apes is enough evidence to show that you are an ignorant.

To me one big test of the intelligence of others will show in their capacity to also noticing and acknowledging and dealing with contradictory evidence.

So, do you know the difference? (no, showing what some researches think is only going away from the consensus).

Looking at the reply to glee I can see that you only want to deal with beliefs and not what the evidence and the majority of researchers are currently reporting on how human evolution and biblical research are taking place. Your reply to glee was just made also of veiled insults. Doing a proper debate is clearly the last of your intentions.


BTW the Romans killed Jesus. And then by destroying Jerusalem they unwillingly were a factor in making Christians to become a separate group from Jews.

I never stated I didn't believe men evolved from a primate ancestor, because I do. There is Scientific fact, and who am I to argue with Scientific fact? I do, however, believe I am a descendant of Adam and Eve, the first man and first woman, created in the image of the Holy Trinity. Who are you to argue with God? Who are you to argue against the faith of another person? Foolish, hopeless, and ignorant?

If I believe in Evolution and Creation, two of the biggest contradictions mankind has ever debated, that must either make me really stupid or very intelligent. I don't think it makes me either. I believe what I believe. Do you really believe life has no purpose? Do you really believe we don't have a Creator with a plan? I can't believe how little a percentage of fact of our infinite universe Science proves, yet how much people put their faith in Science over a Creator. Tell me, how much does man know about the universe through Scientific fact? I'll tell you how much God knows about the universe. Everything.

I don't care what your pathetic Scientific evidence proves, because I know there are things it has YET to prove. Scientific fact will never figure out the way the mind and brain works. It has still not been proven with Scientific fact the exact way the chemicals in our brain works, yet our brains continue to function and our lives go on without knowing... sure there are theories and some facts and what have you, but a theory is only as good as an opinion, and facts are only worth what people are willing to believe. I know, as a fact, that Jesus Christ is alive and well. I know as a fact that Jesus Christ is sitting at the right hand of the Father, making intercessions for every human soul. I know for a fact, yet that fact is worthless to you. Just as your Scientific facts are worthless to me, because Scientific fact IS NOT what grants me the gift of waking up in the mornings to live another day.

You and Glee have no desire to debate... your only desire is to win and/or look more intelligent. I hate to break it to you... but... you can't win. You can look intelligent and yap all day about Scientific fact for all I care... but when a little girl with a diagnosed brain tumor goes back to the hospital, only to have her head scanned to reveal that what once was a tumor the size of a grapefruit has completely vanished without a trace... I would like to see your precious Scientific facts explain that. Of course, you would never hear about something like that on the news... because Scientific fact can't explain it... and God only knows that Scientific fact is the ultimate and absolute truth. Gotta newsflash for you... God created Science. What few Scientific facts man does know was knowledge granted to men through the Will of God. You ought to be thanking God for creating science and facts since you love it so much. I won't deny a Scientific fact... but when it comes between choosing Scientific "fact" and what God says... I'm sorry... I have to choose the Creator over the creation. With God ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE. With Scientific fact... all that is possible is what you can prove.

BTW! Jesus wasn't killed or murdered by anyone. He laid down His life, freely giving His life. No one took Jesus' life. Why? How do I know? Because Jesus is alive. If anyone took His life Jesus would be dead. But Jesus is alive!

He lives, He lives, Christ Jesus lives today! He walks with me and talks with me along life's narrow way. He lives! He lives! Salvation to impart. You ask me how I know He lives? He lives within my heart.

=)

peace and love, friend.

GIGObuster
03-29-2009, 09:57 PM
I can't help but hear the voice of Mojo Jojo from the Power Puff Girls when he replies.

DocCathode
03-29-2009, 09:58 PM
I'm a descendent of Adam and Steve...

To quote from The Parking Lot Is Full

"The fall was about sex. God never forgave the human race for choosing hetersoexuality."

GIGObuster
03-29-2009, 10:06 PM
I hate to break it to you... but... you can't win. You can look intelligent and yap all day about Scientific fact for all I care... but when a little girl with a diagnosed brain tumor goes back to the hospital, only to have her head scanned to reveal that what once was a tumor the size of a grapefruit has completely vanished without a trace... I would like to see your precious Scientific facts explain that.

Piffle, there is even a name for that, spontaneous cancer remission, it is rare, but there is no reason to assign that to a deity.

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/Cancer/miracles.html

Der Trihs
03-29-2009, 10:08 PM
I do, however, believe I am a descendant of Adam and Eve, the first man and first woman, created in the image of the Holy Trinity. Who are you to argue with God? Someone who is real, and therefore superior to God. And judging from the myths about him, even if he was real I'm morally superior to him, by far. As are most people.

Who are you to argue against the faith of another person? Foolish, hopeless, and ignorant?No, I'm someone who regards faith as being either foolish or insane, and certainly not worth respect.

Do you really believe life has no purpose? Do you really believe we don't have a Creator with a plan? We have whatever purpose we choose to give ourselves. There's no rational reason to believe in a creator, and if one did exist I have no desire to follow any "Plan".

I can't believe how little a percentage of fact of our infinite universe Science proves, yet how much people put their faith in Science over a Creator. Tell me, how much does man know about the universe through Scientific fact? I'll tell you how much God knows about the universe. Everything.And do you have any evidence that there is a God, much less that he knows everything ? Of course not.

I put my trust in science over God and religion because science is real, and it works. God is a delusion, and religion is reliably wrong.

I don't care what your pathetic Scientific evidence proves, because I know there are things it has YET to prove. As opposed to religion, which has yet to prove anything at all ?

Scientific fact will never figure out the way the mind and brain works. It has still not been proven with Scientific fact the exact way the chemicals in our brain works, yet our brains continue to function and our lives go on without knowing... sure there are theories and some facts and what have you, but a theory is only as good as an opinion, and facts are only worth what people are willing to believe. A theory isn't "only as good as an opinion". And facts aren't "only worth what people are willing to believe". And there's no reason to think that the mind and brain are some unsolvable problem. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

I know, as a fact, that Jesus Christ is alive and well. I know as a fact that Jesus Christ is sitting at the right hand of the Father, making intercessions for every human soul. I know for a fact, yet that fact is worthless to you.Because it's not a fact. It's just an empty claim.

You can look intelligent and yap all day about Scientific fact for all I care... but when a little girl with a diagnosed brain tumor goes back to the hospital, only to have her head scanned to reveal that what once was a tumor the size of a grapefruit has completely vanished without a trace... I would like to see your precious Scientific facts explain that. Easy; her own body destroyed the tumor.

Of course, you would never hear about something like that on the news... because Scientific fact can't explain it... and God only knows that Scientific fact is the ultimate and absolute truth. Actually, you hear that sort of thing on the news, if it's someone well known enough for the news to care. And the news is heavily biased FOR religion, not against it. As for truth; science is the best tool for discovering truth humanity has. As opposed to religion, which is a tool for denying truth, and is relentlessly wrong.

Gotta newsflash for you... God created Science. What few Scientific facts man does know was knowledge granted to men through the Will of God. You ought to be thanking God for creating science and facts since you love it so much. :rolleyes: God didn't create science, we did. God didn't create anything; he's just a primitive fantasy.

BTW! Jesus wasn't killed or murdered by anyone. He laid down His life, freely giving His life. No one took Jesus' life. Why? How do I know? Because Jesus is alive. If anyone took His life Jesus would be dead. But Jesus is alive! Assuming he ever actually existed, he's long, long dead.

He lives, He lives, Christ Jesus lives today! He walks with me and talks with me along life's narrow way. He lives! He lives! Salvation to impart. You ask me how I know He lives? He lives within my heart.In other words, he's your imaginary friend. Do you have a security blanket and suck your thumb too ?

Lacunae Quell
03-29-2009, 10:09 PM
I taught my followers that being well spoken and polite, you do not speak as one of them . Your manner of speaking means far more than than the details of the story to many.

Jesus... I... I...

...well. I guess if you really are Jesus you would know what your word says. In fact, when it comes to being angry about people disrespecting the Heavenly Father, you know first hand that your Word teaches to "be angry and sin not"--Ephesians 4:26. I was aware I was being angry with some people, but I didn't not realize I was sinning against them as well. I know you will forgive me though, because you love me, and you know from experience about how hard it is to control emotion and actions when you get angry... remember the time when your Father's House was made into a den of thieves? Remember all the money tables you flipped over? Remember all the commotion you caused? Yet you didn't sin in your moment of anger and rage. You, Jesus Christ, are truly worthy of admiration and are truly worth believing in. thank you, Lord Jesus, for dying for my sins and preparing an eternal life for me and my family and friends to spend with you!



p.s. that message was for the real Jesus, kid. I hope you had fun playing your little game of conviction. it didn't work but... it was an amusing attempt for a non-believer to try to bring guilt upon a believer. oh... and how do I know that you're a non-believer? the user name gave it away... oooh.... yeahh... sorry... better luck with someone who is ignorant.

uhm... by the way. how old are you? I honestly hope you're younger than 12... 'cause it would be kind of pathetic if you were any older and doing this. I believe a lack of maturity reveals so much ignorance in a person.

DocCathode
03-29-2009, 10:14 PM
In other words, he's your imaginary friend. Do you have a security blanket and suck your thumb too ?

Not my thumb no.

Der Trihs
03-29-2009, 10:16 PM
Not my thumb no.That can't be good for your back.

Marley23
03-29-2009, 10:18 PM
but when a little girl with a diagnosed brain tumor goes back to the hospital, only to have her head scanned to reveal that what once was a tumor the size of a grapefruit has completely vanished without a trace...
And the rest of the time, where the tumor kills its victim? What then? God just likes to keep people guessing, I suppose, keeping his miracles indistinguishable from statistical noise because he's got a great sense of humor and insists that faith be completely unjustified because then it's even more faithfully delicious? What a crock.

Strinka
03-29-2009, 10:22 PM
Lacunas Quell
I believe I am one of the most intelligent persons alive(Lacunas is proof of that fo'shizzle, lol), and who are you to say I am not? Go ahead.



I never stated I didn't believe men evolved from a primate ancestor, because I do. There is Scientific fact, and who am I to argue with Scientific fact? I do, however, believe I am a descendant of Adam and Eve, the first man and first woman, created in the image of the Holy Trinity. Who are you to argue with God? Who are you to argue against the faith of another person? Foolish, hopeless, and ignorant?

If I believe in Evolution and Creation, two of the biggest contradictions mankind has ever debated, that must either make me really stupid or very intelligent. I don't think it makes me either. I believe what I believe. Do you really believe life has no purpose? Do you really believe we don't have a Creator with a plan? I can't believe how little a percentage of fact of our infinite universe Science proves, yet how much people put their faith in Science over a Creator. Tell me, how much does man know about the universe through Scientific fact? I'll tell you how much God knows about the universe. Everything.

I don't care what your pathetic Scientific evidence proves, because I know there are things it has YET to prove. Scientific fact will never figure out the way the mind and brain works. It has still not been proven with Scientific fact the exact way the chemicals in our brain works, yet our brains continue to function and our lives go on without knowing... sure there are theories and some facts and what have you, but a theory is only as good as an opinion, and facts are only worth what people are willing to believe. I know, as a fact, that Jesus Christ is alive and well. I know as a fact that Jesus Christ is sitting at the right hand of the Father, making intercessions for every human soul. I know for a fact, yet that fact is worthless to you. Just as your Scientific facts are worthless to me, because Scientific fact IS NOT what grants me the gift of waking up in the mornings to live another day.

You and Glee have no desire to debate... your only desire is to win and/or look more intelligent. I hate to break it to you... but... you can't win. You can look intelligent and yap all day about Scientific fact for all I care... but when a little girl with a diagnosed brain tumor goes back to the hospital, only to have her head scanned to reveal that what once was a tumor the size of a grapefruit has completely vanished without a trace... I would like to see your precious Scientific facts explain that. Of course, you would never hear about something like that on the news... because Scientific fact can't explain it... and God only knows that Scientific fact is the ultimate and absolute truth. Gotta newsflash for you... God created Science. What few Scientific facts man does know was knowledge granted to men through the Will of God. You ought to be thanking God for creating science and facts since you love it so much. I won't deny a Scientific fact... but when it comes between choosing Scientific "fact" and what God says... I'm sorry... I have to choose the Creator over the creation. With God ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE. With Scientific fact... all that is possible is what you can prove.

BTW! Jesus wasn't killed or murdered by anyone. He laid down His life, freely giving His life. No one took Jesus' life. Why? How do I know? Because Jesus is alive. If anyone took His life Jesus would be dead. But Jesus is alive!

He lives, He lives, Christ Jesus lives today! He walks with me and talks with me along life's narrow way. He lives! He lives! Salvation to impart. You ask me how I know He lives? He lives within my heart.

=)

peace and love, friend.

No, no, no! Zeus lives. After all, either Homer was lying, crazy, or right. He never said anything crazy (nothing like virgin birth or changing humans into animals or anything like that), and he said obviously good things like "Don't kidnap other people's wives", and he clearly wouldn't have said those things if he was lying. So, the Greek gods exist. In fact, exactly the same reasoning can be applied to Mohammed, Joseph Smith, and pretty much every other religious prophet. Keep in mind, most of us here don't consider the Bible as any better authority than the Iliad or Gilgamesh.

So, what's so great about faith? It's gives you certainty. But what if what you're so certain about is wrong? Clearly, people who go on faith can be wrong; people who believed in the Greek gods were apparently wrong, weren't they? I mean, either they were wrong, or you are. So clearly, faith leads some people down the wrong path. How do you know you're not one of them?

The only way I can think of is to, well, check. See if what your faith tells you corresponds with the real world. That would be science. Maybe you trust your faith more than science, but what's the last tangible thing faith gave you? Science gives us cars, airplanes, television, computers... Faith has given us, what? Lack of use of condoms? So, science hasn't discovered everything yet, and probably never will. Some is better than none. What your omniscient creator says doesn't really matter unless it could be verified.

How do you know that science will never figure out how the mind works? We haven't figured it out yet, so we never will? And we've already made enormous amounts of progress in that area. If we had no idea how the brain worked, we wouldn't be able to make drugs that help mental disorders. Ask my dad, Prozac is great for his depression.

Why do you think your god exists, but these ones (http://ancienthistory.about.com/library/bl/bl_myth_gods_index.htm) don't?

Locrian
03-29-2009, 10:27 PM
I can't help but hear the voice of Mojo Jojo from the Power Puff Girls when he replies.

Ha! Me too! Him and Manson.

LQ, you gonna answer my posts yet? You have all the answers already,
INCLUDING your OP asking us who killed christ.

tomndebb
03-29-2009, 10:29 PM
uhm... by the way. how old are you? I honestly hope you're younger than 12... 'cause it would be kind of pathetic if you were any older and doing this. I believe a lack of maturity reveals so much ignorance in a person.Leaving aside the obvious irony, you might want to dial back on the personal insults before I demonstrate the amazing powers that I do have.

[ /Moderating ]

Locrian
03-29-2009, 10:32 PM
Jesus... I... I...

...well. I guess if you really are Jesus you would know what your word says. In fact, when it comes to being angry about people disrespecting the Heavenly Father, you know first hand that your Word teaches to "be angry and sin not"--Ephesians 4:26. I was aware I was being angry with some people, but I didn't not realize I was sinning against them as well. I know you will forgive me though, because you love me, and you know from experience about how hard it is to control emotion and actions when you get angry... remember the time when your Father's House was made into a den of thieves? Remember all the money tables you flipped over? Remember all the commotion you caused? Yet you didn't sin in your moment of anger and rage. You, Jesus Christ, are truly worthy of admiration and are truly worth believing in. thank you, Lord Jesus, for dying for my sins and preparing an eternal life for me and my family and friends to spend with you!



p.s. that message was for the real Jesus, kid. I hope you had fun playing your little game of conviction. it didn't work but... it was an amusing attempt for a non-believer to try to bring guilt upon a believer. oh... and how do I know that you're a non-believer? the user name gave it away... oooh.... yeahh... sorry... better luck with someone who is ignorant.

uhm... by the way. how old are you? I honestly hope you're younger than 12... 'cause it would be kind of pathetic if you were any older and doing this. I believe a lack of maturity reveals so much ignorance in a person.

Speaking of being 12, ain't you a-sinnin' being up past curfew?

And, Jesus, you sinned like a flipping baby at the Temple! Who are you to tell us how to behave? Learn to read, by the way.

Lacunae Quell
03-29-2009, 10:36 PM
We are all rubberneckers when we see a wreck on the road. It does not mean that the attention was gained for a good reason.

hmmm... that statement says a lot about you "rubberneckers". Instead of doing something to help better the situation you just stand around and watch and get in the way of the people actually trying to help and you just make the situation much, much worse. Hey... you said it, not me.


After a few checks in the rear view mirror, even we lose interest on a wreck.

that's because you don't value a human life. you just want to see their brains splattered over the asphalt so you can sigh a sigh of relief that it was them and not you.

*sigh*.


Just a few months? Or just for the day the thread has been here? Either way I do not think you are aware of what really means to "stuck around this long".

lol. let's see who can stick this out the longest. I'm sure you may have been on this website for a while, assassinated innocent religious threads that were created for good conversation, and watched people cave in under the pressure of unnecessarily rude comments made about their intelligence because they believe in the Holy Trinity, or at least a force greater than Scientific fact... but i'm telling you now... I've seen intelligent conversation regarding the topic, and it certainly wasn't a contribution from you.

yup. Yessir. This has been my first day on StraightDope. oh hey wait... I thought StraightDope fought ignorance? then why do so many people post ignorant replies, not backed with any of their precious "scientific fact" when it comes to debating God? Scientific fact hasn't, can't, and won't prove the existence if God... but then again it hasn't, can't and sure won't prove that He doesn't exist.

On edit: I see that even Jesus is upset for the wreck of the original post. :p

oh yeah? so tell me... how is your personal relationship with Jesus? I hope it's good... because honestly... *whispers* that wasn't really Jesus, that was an impostor! I know the voice of my Heavenly Father and that didn't sound like my Jesus at all. Good thing I let you know before he fooled you anymore, huh?

xD

this is actually getting pretty fun. I realize that I can bust balls without being rude or insulting! this has made a 180 degree turn... I was irritated with posts like this... but I actually have fun with them now. please notice how my replies are getting shorter! by jove!!!! I'm learning!

DocCathode
03-29-2009, 10:39 PM
Who are you to argue with God?

That's one of the features I love about Judaism. Any human being is qualified to argue with God. According to Jewish Folklore, it's even possible to win the argument.

By Jove!

Swearing by other gods now?

Der Trihs
03-29-2009, 10:47 PM
Scientific fact hasn't, can't, and won't prove the existence if God... but then again it hasn't, can't and sure won't prove that He doesn't exist. To the extent that it can, it has; many of the claimed feats of God violate physical law, and there's no evidence that they ever happened.

And it's not the job of the skeptics to prove you wrong; it's yours to provide poof - or even just evidence - that you are right. Why should I take your baseless claims any more seriously than the millions of other baseless claims that contradict yours ? As others have said, why should we believe in God and not Zeus, or Thor, or Tezcatlipoca, or Geb, or Anu, or Agni ?

Voyager
03-29-2009, 10:50 PM
Lacunas Quell
I believe I am one of the most intelligent persons alive(Lacunas is proof of that fo'shizzle, lol), and who are you to say I am not? Go ahead.

As someone scientifically trained, I can state that this hypothesis has been falsified with the evidence presented in the course of this experiment. (Which seems somewhat similar to the MST3K experiments conducted by the Mads.)



I never stated I didn't believe men evolved from a primate ancestor, because I do. There is Scientific fact, and who am I to argue with Scientific fact? I do, however, believe I am a descendant of Adam and Eve, the first man and first woman, created in the image of the Holy Trinity. Who are you to argue with God? Who are you to argue against the faith of another person? Foolish, hopeless, and ignorant?

But you are arguing against the faith of the Moslem, Jew, and Hindu. A bit hypocritical, wot? And your arms too short to argue with science.

If I believe in Evolution and Creation, two of the biggest contradictions mankind has ever debated, that must either make me really stupid or very intelligent. I don't think it makes me either. I believe what I believe. Do you really believe life has no purpose? Do you really believe we don't have a Creator with a plan? I can't believe how little a percentage of fact of our infinite universe Science proves, yet how much people put their faith in Science over a Creator. Tell me, how much does man know about the universe through Scientific fact? I'll tell you how much God knows about the universe. Everything.

I don't have to believe in evolution. The evidence is there, the predictions it made have been verified. On the other hand, the big Jesus prediction about returning hasn't panned out too well, eh?

I don't care what your pathetic Scientific evidence proves, because I know there are things it has YET to prove. Scientific fact will never figure out the way the mind and brain works. It has still not been proven with Scientific fact the exact way the chemicals in our brain works, yet our brains continue to function and our lives go on without knowing...

For one thing, you are totally ignorant about science. Science makes no claim to know or to have proven everything. There is a body of stuff which has convincing explanations (no proofs) and a big body of unknowns. However, we have a good idea of the structure of the brain, and the electrical and chemical explanations for things like mental illness. Your Jesus had - demons. If he had a connection to god, he might have known there are no demons.

sure there are theories and some facts and what have you, but a theory is only as good as an opinion, and facts are only worth what people are willing to believe.

Put your Bible down, head to the science section of the library, and try to learn something, okay? Facts are verified through reproducible experiments, and have nothing to do with belief. Your confusion about this explains your unwillingness to examine the possibility your beliefs might be wrong.

GIGObuster
03-29-2009, 10:52 PM
Do you really believe life has no purpose? Do you really believe we don't have a Creator with a plan?
I believe that life has the purpose of looking for other sites to go and to continue. The earth is only an speck of dust and it is clear to me that we are not the end result of the creation, but only one of the steps.

It seems to me that once writing was invented religion lost the chance to progress with society by embedding ideas like slavery into their message when suddenly what it was supposed to be traditions were frozen by writing.

Oral tradition could afford the holy men of the past a chance to change the faith slowly and with very little fuss, the problem with the Abrahamic religions has been IMHO that unfortunately they decided to freeze that natural change.

So we got then a Genesis that was frozen when at the time two creation traditions (or more) were being told.

Then later even the New Testament suffered this fate when many noticed that the end was not near so they had to write down the new testament, so Judas then had to die twice and in different circumstances.

But getting back to the plan 9 from outer space :), I have news from you, the Apocalypse was allowed into the bible as just an allegory when the time came to add it to the new testament. It came very close on being declared apocryphal because the history was no longer operational as Nixon would say. (The church was then taking over Rome so they could not be the beast, got that?)

As Jonah found out, what would you do when God just decided to change plans as we have seen? You are just being upset by a gourd that has withered. If god exists he is clearly not the one from the bible.

Der Trihs
03-29-2009, 10:56 PM
I can't help but hear the voice of Mojo Jojo from the Power Puff Girls when he replies.

And your arms too short to argue with science.And now I have this image of Lacunas Quell as Mojo Jojo, flailing helplessly at Professor Utonium ( standing in as Science ), as the Professor holds him off with a palm to Mojo Jojo's forehead.

Lacunae Quell
03-29-2009, 11:13 PM
Look! Capitalization! Excellent, and the post is not chapter length.

You are the OP. Stating that you yourself are obnoxious may not be the best way to witness. The very long comments with minimal punctuation and capitalization do tend to give the reader the impression that you are "blurting them onto the computer screen", so it's nice that you're taking the extra time to edit [Cue embarrassing typographical error.]

Thank you!

You know what? The people reading this who believe as I do don't feel the same about me as you. I know from experience how the religious and non-religious people perceive me in forums. Sure... there are more people who think I'm ignorant, uneducated, and stupid... but when it comes to the few people whose opinion about me might actually matter to me, they see someone taking a stand for what he believes in, the see him using the knowledge of what I believe and putting it to proper use, and they see a bunch of arrogant people get beat down with Biblical fact because they don't [I[have[/I] any "scientific fact" to refute the Bible with. All those people have is "oh uhm... I was alive between 70-150 A.D. and I hung out with the people who wrote the Bible and dude, they're nothing but a bunch of liars... trust me".

...seriously. I have yet seen ANYONE claiming "scientific fact" as their ultimate truth use any of this "scientific fact" or provide links or information to where I could research this elusive "scientific fact" for myself.

so... I guarantee you that the people I am intending to impress are impressed with me. I'm not trying to toot my own horn here... I'm just letting you know that while yes, not everyone is impressed with me, who even said I was here to impress anyone? Do you really think I give two sh!ts about impressing anyone? I really don't. I only started using the shift key so people would stfu about it. The only people who even would complain about such a pointless thing aren't even the people I want to talk to. I've enjoyed the two posts I've shared with Kanicbird more than all the other posts combined. Kanic is the kind of person I'm here to talk to. I just don't want to ignore anyone's post, and in the one day since I've been on this website, I've only gotten to page two because of all the time I spend telling you people off for making absurd and ignorant remarks. I created my account early yesterday morning... and I've been up since 1:15 p.m... this PAST SATURDAY. I've almost been up for 36 hours had this account for about 24 hours now, and for all the people who said that no one would care about what I had to say. You were wrong. You all are the biggest hypocrites, with the exception of two, three, maybe four people. You continue to read my posts... you continue to reply to them... and you continue to get a response from me... and quite frankly, I'm prepared to go another 12 hours without sleep just to reply to people like my good ol' buddy 3rdDimension here... just so I can tell you, one more time, and in fact i'd better spell it out for you this time.

I a-m n-o-t t-r-y-i-n-g t-o i-m-p-r-e-s-s A-N-Y-O-N-E!!!!!

I am trying to prove that you can keep hurling your insults, you can keep attempting to bring me down, you can keep telling me my faith is in vain, you can continue to nag and bitch and complain about the way i like to type... but you know what!? I'm gonna prove to you I can take it. After all... you all just keep hurling words at me. That's all. You don't hit me up with fact, you rarely hit me up with personal opinions or beliefs, and you most certainly do the only thing that makes you look ignorant and that is to continue to come to my posts with nothing good to say.

I was about to delete all this and just stop replying to people. from now on I will only be replying to the people whom I have had good conversation with and I'm going to stop wasting my time having petty arguments with people who can act VERY immature.

I think what I really want right now is sleep.



Um...you joined yesterday. I wouldn't like to suggest that you're a sock or anything, although it did cross my mind when I read Snnipe 70E's typographically challenged support of your position. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you mean.

Yeah... I joined yesterday... and I wanted to watch Snnipe scramble to fix his typographical errors... Because I really didn't care, I haven't checked to see what he fixed, but he did it. AND I DON'T CARE.

Marley23
03-29-2009, 11:16 PM
I a-m n-o-t t-r-y-i-n-g t-o i-m-p-r-e-s-s A-N-Y-O-N-E!!!!!
Mission accomplished.

DocCathode
03-29-2009, 11:18 PM
... but when it comes to the few people whose opinion about me might actually matter to me, they see someone taking a stand for what he believes in, the see him using the knowledge of what I believe and putting it to proper use, and they see a bunch of arrogant people get beat down with Biblical fact because they don't [I[have[/I] any "scientific fact" to refute the Bible with. .

As a Jew, a follower of the God Of Abraham- I see somebody who knows nothing of science, isn't communicating well, and is having his ass handed to him by the other side of the debate.

tomndebb
03-29-2009, 11:20 PM
Speaking of being 12, ain't you a-sinnin' being up past curfew?
You, too, may leave the personal sniping for The BBQ Pit.

[ /Moderating ]

ianzin
03-29-2009, 11:28 PM
Hi Lacunas. I asked you a simple question (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10984669&postcount=72). You keep asserting that you are intelligent. If so, it shouldn't be too hard for you to answer a simple question.

GIGObuster
03-29-2009, 11:31 PM
I think he is getting the impression that I'm replying just for him.

Science is just a part of it, history is another, cites are available for what I have mentioned regarding the bible.

So far it is clear that you are willing to ignore on purpose that science knows about spontaneous cancer remissions, but you are happy to tell others that that is not possible. I'm just happy to point that to all others. After all, some could read your rants and possibly think they could be worth something.

And you really do not want to agree with kanickbird unless you also agree that it is the fault of the unborn if they turn into a stillbirth.

Locrian
03-29-2009, 11:32 PM
You, too, may leave the personal sniping for The BBQ Pit.

[ /Moderating ]
Understood, TnD, I was only hoping to finally get a response from the poor kid.

He's been beyond sarcastic in all of his other responses though... You've warned him, too, so I hope he will comply to that, but let's let this keep going. Talk about "LOL"!

Lacunae Quell
03-29-2009, 11:43 PM
The proof of that statement is (as I said) in the posts on this messageboard.
Interestingly my statement says nothing about your intellectual prowess, yet you obviously think it does.
So you need to work on your comprehension.



Who are these MANY people? :confused:
Fundamentalists believe God created man about 6000 years ago.
Scientists have proof that man and apes share a common ancestor.



Perhaps you should look at the genes, rather than the facial resemblance.



Because they share a common ancestor.
Sheesh - where did you get the idea that man was descended from apes?
Why do you think that sharing a genus means one is descended from the other?

perhaps you should prove to me how the similarities in the genes between humans and great apes proves human and ape evolved from a common ancestor... and even more importantly, maybe you should mention the fact that there are crucial gaps and differences in great ape and human genes! Just because something is similar doesn't mean it is the same or came from a common ancestor.

looks like the hardcore Jesus Freak is going to be the first person to use scientific evidence. And you would think that those who support it so dearly would have been bombarding us with Scientific fact... at least I haven't seen anyone use their "scientific proof" or "evidence" or "fact". So I will use it for you... and you will see your ignorance, and you will continue to deny the truth and your ignorance.

To map the chimp genome, researchers used DNA from the blood of a male common chimpanzee (Pan troglodytes) named Clint, who lived at the Yerkes National Primate Research Center in Atlanta. Clint died last year from heart failure at the relatively young age of 24.

A comparison of Clint's genetic blueprints with that of the human genome shows that our closest living relatives share 96 percent of our DNA. The number of genetic differences between humans and chimps is ten times smaller than that between mice and rats.

Scientists also discovered that some classes of genes are changing unusually quickly in both humans and chimpanzees, as compared with other mammals. These classes include genes involved in the perception of sound, transmission of nerve signals, and the production of sperm.

Despite the similarities in human and chimp genomes, the scientists identified some 40 million differences among the three billion DNA molecules, or nucleotides, in each genome.

The vast majority of those differences are not biologically significant, but researchers were able to identify a couple thousand differences that are potentially important to the evolution of the human lineage.

Time to bust out the Qur'an...

Allah Almighty Said: "We will soon show them Our signs in the Universe and inside their selves, until it will become quite clear to them that it is the truth. Is it not sufficient as regards your Lord that He is a witness over all things? (The Noble Quran, 41:53)"

"O mankind! reverence your Guardian-Lord, who created you from a single person, created, of like nature, His mate, and from them twain scattered (like seeds) countless men and women;- reverence God, through whom ye demand your mutual (rights), and (reverence) the wombs (That bore you): for God ever watches over you. (The Noble Quran, 4:1)"

Say: "Shall I point out to you something much worse than this, (as judged) by the treatment it received from God? those who incurred the curse of God and His wrath, those of whom some He transformed into apes and swine, those who worshipped evil;- these are (many times) worse in rank, and far more astray from the even path!" (The Noble Quran, 5:60)"

"When in their insolence they transgressed (all) prohibitions, We said to them: "Be ye apes, despised and rejected." (The Noble Quran, 7:166)

"And well ye knew those amongst you who transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath: We said to them: "Be ye apes, despised and rejected." (The Noble Quran, 2:65)"

God Almighty created my parents in His likeness from the dust and the rib of His creation. We got something in common though... I also believe God created pigs and apes, and with God, nothing is impossible, so it is QUITE POSSIBLE that He allowed certain stubborn beasts to evolve into even more stubborn humans.

just a theory. But hey... it's supported by your precious "scientific evidence".

DNA information and Qur'an passages were taken fromhttp://www.answering-christianity.org/dna_of_humans_pigs_monkeys_is_similar.htm

GIGObuster
03-29-2009, 11:54 PM
perhaps you should prove to me how the similarities in the genes between humans and great apes proves human and ape evolved from a common ancestor... and even more importantly, maybe you should mention the fact that there are crucial gaps and differences in great ape and human genes! Just because something is similar doesn't mean it is the same or came from a common ancestor.

looks like the hardcore Jesus Freak is going to be the first person to use scientific evidence. And you would think that those who support it so dearly would have been bombarding us with Scientific fact... at least I haven't seen anyone use their "scientific proof" or "evidence" or "fact". So I will use it for you... and you will see your ignorance, and you will continue to deny the truth and your ignorance.

To map the chimp genome, researchers used DNA from the blood of a male common chimpanzee (Pan troglodytes) named Clint, who lived at the Yerkes National Primate Research Center in Atlanta. Clint died last year from heart failure at the relatively young age of 24.

A comparison of Clint's genetic blueprints with that of the human genome shows that our closest living relatives share 96 percent of our DNA. The number of genetic differences between humans and chimps is ten times smaller than that between mice and rats.


http://sciencestage.com/v/714/man-and-ape-the-small-difference.html
humans and chimpanzees do not look much alike. Yet their genetic make-up (genome) differs by only 1.3 percent. Geneticists, however, have known for quite a while already that this is not what really counts: In order to ascertain the actual differences between both species, the translation of the genetic make-up in the building of proteins must be considered. That this is also possible is a new development, since the genetic make-up of our closest living relatives has only recently been identified in its entirety.Researchers at the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Leipzig examined the activity of around 21,000 genes in the heart, liver, kidneys, testicles and brain of both species. The result: Of all organs, the difference between humans and chimpanzees is the smallest in the brain - at least with regard to the structure and activity of the genes.
You are missing on purpose that the bigger differences we have to mice and rats than from the apes is evidence that then the mice separated at an early date from the common ancestor that we also shared with them.

All life has a common ancestor, DNA shows that.

GIGObuster
03-29-2009, 11:59 PM
God Almighty created my parents in His likeness from the dust and the rib of His creation. We got something in common though... I also believe God created pigs and apes, and with God, nothing is impossible, so it is QUITE POSSIBLE that He allowed certain stubborn beasts to evolve into even more stubborn humans.

There is no evidence for this. Evolution made apes and humans, there is no evidence that then some apes turned into humans.

Lacunae Quell
03-30-2009, 12:00 AM
* Yawn * There's nothing "daring" about pointing out in this thread that there is no God and there is no afterlife. That's what all the evidence shows, like it or not. You want to know where you are going ? Assuming immortality isn't cracked by science relatively soon, you'll die, and you'll be nonexistent. That's all.

i would like you to present that evidence.

Blake
03-30-2009, 12:25 AM
... there is no evidence that then some apes turned into humans.

Umm, yeah, there is. Lots of it.

I don't think you meant what you just posted

GIGObuster
03-30-2009, 12:35 AM
Umm, yeah, there is. Lots of it.

I don't think you meant what you just posted

:confused:

Do you understand what common ancestor means? A descendant can not then become an ancestor of a different branch.

ianzin
03-30-2009, 12:51 AM
i would like you to present that evidence. While we're on the subject of what we'd like, I like you to answer the question (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10984669&postcount=72) I asked you way back on post #72. It's not a trick question, it does not contains a hidden premise, and it's fairly simple to answer.

Alessan
03-30-2009, 12:56 AM
:confused:

Do you understand what common ancestor means? A descendant can not then become an ancestor of a different branch.

Technically speaking, the common ancestor of both chimpanzees and humans - two species of ape - was also an ape, now extinct.

GIGObuster
03-30-2009, 12:57 AM
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/faq/cat03.html

4. Could apes ever evolve into some other humanlike creature?

It is possible that in many millions of years present day apes could evolve into some other humanlike species. It is, however, very improbable. First of all, humans did not evolve from any of the species we know as apes today. At some point 5 to 8 million years ago, the common ancestor of humans and modern apes diverged to form the two separate lineages we know today. The species at the end of these lineages are a result of a very specific combination of selection pressures and genetic mutations over millions of years. This same combination is highly unlikely to occur ever again.

FinnAgain
03-30-2009, 01:01 AM
GIGO: no, he's right. Your statement about ancestors and descendants is just... weird, and somewhat of a non sequitor
.
The evolution of hominids (all of which were apes of one sort or another and which included Homo ) occurred from a common ancestor. The group of hominids branched out, giving us the modern humans and great apes. As such, there is a massive amount of evidence that, yes, apes did indeed turn into humans. And other branches turned into chimps, gorillas, orangutans, etc... Hominidae split into Ponginae and Homininae. Homininae, in turn, split into Hominini (humans), Panini (chimps) and Gorillini (gorillas).

All of them, however, branched off from the Hominidae line, which were higher primates. Likewise, Hominidae branched off from another common ancestor when it split with Hylobatidae (lower primates).

But, all of these groupings were apes.

If you meant to say that modern great apes didn't turn into humans, you'd be 100% correct. But saying that humans did not evolve from apes is 100% incorrect. We did. So did modern great apes. It's just that our evolutionary branching brought us in different directions.

You are conflating "any species of ape we know today" with "apes".
And you are wrong.

GIGObuster
03-30-2009, 01:07 AM
Technically speaking, the common ancestor of both chimpanzees and humans - two species of ape - was also an ape, now extinct.
Technically, but in the context of this discussion Lacunas Quell is not talking about that, and it is not common to call that ancestor an ape, but I have seen the term "common ape ancestor" being used.

FinnAgain
03-30-2009, 01:10 AM
it is not common to call that ancestor an ape

I have never heard Hominidae or their immediate progenitors referred to as anything, at all, other than apes.

Cite that, in scientific terminology, Hominidae or their immediate progenitors are not considered to be apes?

I will grant that our OP is probably using it in a different, non-scientific context. And, especially with his reference to "pigs and apes"... as other posters have pointed out his claims that they evolved into less-cool humans than he is are highly, highly suspect. And quite distributing in their implications.

The Second Stone
03-30-2009, 01:13 AM
this is why i encourage people to take the excruciating time to read ALL of my post. not just skim through it...



Why should I bother to read something as badly written as your post? But in addition to being badly written, it is just long and boring and repetitive. Why don't you just state your point that God loves us and we shouldn't have put him to death. See, it is really simple. And I only look like I am one-tenth as loony as you.

God gave you the ability to write. Write clearly and concisely, or you are wasting your talents and making people turn away from God with your crappy writing. There are believers like me trying to read your writing, and I just cannot stand your writing.

GIGObuster
03-30-2009, 01:16 AM
If you meant to say that modern great apes didn't turn into humans, you'd be 100% correct. But saying that humans did not evolve from apes is 100% incorrect. We did. So did modern great apes. It's just that our evolutionary branching brought us in different directions.

You are conflating "any species of ape we know today" with "apes".
And you are wrong.
I did indeed meant to say that great apes didn't turn into humans, I knew I should not had humored Lacunas Quell.

However, I would think that just calling the common ancestor an ape also can lead to confusion. I would think that there are more qualifiers that just that, but then I'm happy to go with "common ape ancestor" provided Lacunas Quell acknowledges that we did not evolve from the great apes or even Chimps.

Blake
03-30-2009, 01:17 AM
:confused:

Do you understand what common ancestor means? A descendant can not then become an ancestor of a different branch.


Wrong, and wrong.

Your statement that "there is no evidence that then some apes turned into humans" is just plain wrong. It is indisputable that some apes turned into humans.

Moreover large numbers of scientists believe that some apes became humans and some remained apes, and that some of those that remained apes became ancestors of other human lineages at a later date (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiregional_hypothesis).

IOW the ape descendant of the original ape-human split later became an ancestor of a different branch of humanity.

In fact this was the majority scientific viewpoint within my lifetime andit is still the view held by a large minority of scientsits. It's not real fair critisicing Lacunas Quell for believing something that majority of evolutionary biologists believed, and that large numbers still do believe.

mutantmoose
03-30-2009, 01:20 AM
What can humans have come from other than some ape-like creature?

All the ape-like creatures obviously came from some common ancestor that was large, bipedal, lumbering.

We didn't suddenly spring out of a newt. Obviously we had ape-like ancestors.

Alessan
03-30-2009, 01:21 AM
I will grant that our OP is probably using it in a different, non-scientific context. And, especially with his reference to "pigs and apes"... as other posters have pointed out his claims that they evolved into less-cool humans than he is are highly, highly suspect. And quite distributing in their implications.

It is, isn't it? We know who that phrase usually refers to.

Blake
03-30-2009, 01:21 AM
I did indeed meant to say that great apes didn't turn into humans

And that is equally wrong. Great apes indisputably did turn into humans. H. erectus was great ape. H. habilis was a great ape. A. afarensis was a great ape. All are direct human ancestors. All are great apes.

Blake
03-30-2009, 01:24 AM
It is, isn't it? We know who that phrase usually refers to.

Nerds?;)

GIGObuster
03-30-2009, 01:24 AM
I have never heard Hominidae or their immediate progenitors referred to as anything, at all, other than apes.

Cite that, in scientific terminology, Hominidae or their immediate progenitors are not considered to be apes?
Well, PBS (and I have to assume the scientists interviewed for the program also) are supporting me here.

I will grant that our OP is probably using it in a different, non-scientific context. And, especially with his reference to "pigs and apes"... as other posters have pointed out his claims that they evolved into less-cool humans than he is are highly, highly suspect. And quite distributing in their implications.
Once again I was pointing out the silliness of the say so of the OP, so since it is not very important for the discussion I accept "common ape ancestor"

Blake
03-30-2009, 01:28 AM
Well, PBS (and I have to assume the scientists interviewed for the program also) are supporting me here.

No, they aren't. Not in any way.

Once again I was pointing out the silliness of the say so of the OP...[/qupte]

So although it's correct it's OK to call it silly based on a misrepresenation of the facts?

Not valid, and not very honest either.

[quote]... so since it is not very important for the discussion I accept "common ape ancestor"

Which makes your position even more wrong.

GIGObuster
03-30-2009, 01:29 AM
And that is equally wrong. Great apes indisputably did turn into humans. H. erectus was great ape. H. habilis was a great ape. A. afarensis was a great ape. All are direct human ancestors. All are great apes.
No that is not the point. Even FinnAgain noticed what the OP is referring to, he (the OP) is definitely not referring to H. habilis or A. afarensis.

FinnAgain
03-30-2009, 01:33 AM
Well, PBS (and I have to assume the scientists interviewed for the program also) are supporting me here.


No, they're not. The bit you quoted only has to do with modern apes. They didn't say that Hominidae wouldn't qualify as apes. Hominidae, in fact, qualify as apes. Including but not limited to the direct ancestors of modern humans.

This (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/270333/Hominidae) is the context in which I heard the term while I was still pre-med, ages ago.


Hominidae
anthropological family

in zoology, one of the two living families of the ape superfamily Hominoidea, the other being the Hylobatidae (gibbons). Hominidae includes the great apes—that is, the orangutans (genus Pongo), gorillas (Gorilla), and chimpanzees and bonobos (Pan)—as well as human beings (Homo). Formerly, humans alone (with their extinct forebears) were placed in Hominidae, and the great apes were placed in a different family, Pongidae. However, morphological and molecular studies now indicate that humans are closely related to chimpanzees, while gorillas are more distant and orangutans more distant still. Since classification schemes aim to depict relationships, it is logical to consider humans and great apes as hominids, that is, members of the same zoological family, Hominidae. Within this family there are considered to be two subfamilies. One (called Ponginae) contains only the orangutans, and the other (Homininae) contains humans and the African great apes. Subfamily Homininae in turn is divided into two “tribes”: Gorillini, for the African great apes and their evolutionary ancestors, and Hominini, for human beings and their ancestors. Following this classification, members of the human tribe, that is, modern human beings and their extinct forebears (e.g., the Neanderthals, Homo erectus, various species of Australopithecus), are frequently referred to as hominins.

It is, isn't it? We know who that phrase usually refers to.

Yep. And that along with his comment about 'more stubborn' beasts evolving into more stubborn not-as-fully-human humans are Christians...
For what it's worth I hope the OP is just communicating horribly and giving an impression that he doesn't mean. But I wouldn't bet on it.

FinnAgain
03-30-2009, 01:40 AM
Er... that should be "as Christians". Not "are Christians".

PBear42
03-30-2009, 01:43 AM
I've skimmed the thread, mainly out of curiosity, because I couldn't for the life of me figure out how the OP merited three pages. I still don't. Really, folks, this one deserves to sink and fade. Winning a battle with a one-armed man brings no glory. Can't ya'll just let it go?

FinnAgain
03-30-2009, 01:44 AM
Obligatory link. (http://xkcd.com/386/)

GIGObuster
03-30-2009, 01:46 AM
No, they aren't. Not in any way.
That was a reply to FinnAgain.

Not valid, and not very honest either.

It would be if I was still insisting on that, However it is not true to say that I was not being honest as it was AFAIK.

BTW you need to notice I'm agreeing with FinnAgain.

Which makes your position even more wrong.
I think you are protesting too much here.

And yes FinnAgain, I stand corrected. The evidence still shows that what I see from the OP is wrong. I do think that he is saying that we also came from the modern apes.

FinnAgain
03-30-2009, 01:50 AM
And yes FinnAgain, I stand corrected. The evidence still shows that what I see from the OP is wrong. I do think he is saying that we also came from the modern apes.

No prob, glad I could help. I really, really loved studying biology back in the day, before I decided I didn't want to go into medicine. I'm not as well versed as some Dopers, but I TA'd for bio courses back then and still try to keep up with the field, at least a little bit.

And yeah... I agree and I do think that the OP is saying that a certain group of people (Blacks? Jews? All non-Christians? Simply people who don't agree with him?) evolved from chimps, or maybe even "pigs and apes", and as such are still more 'beastial', but that people who are like him are cool enough to have been created by God, essentially ex nihilo.

Blake
03-30-2009, 02:08 AM
That was a reply to FinnAgain.

Doesn't matter if its a reply to God himself. It's still wrong in every particular.

It would be if I was still insisting on that, However it is not true to say that I was not being honest as it was AFAIK

So it's honest of you to construct a criticism based on something that you know is factually incorrect is? Interesting interpretation of honesty.

BTW you need to notice I'm agreeing with FinnAgain.
Doesn't matter if you're agreeing with God himself. It's still wrong in every particular.

GIGObuster
03-30-2009, 02:23 AM
No prob, glad I could help. I really, really loved studying biology back in the day, before I decided I didn't want to go into medicine. I'm not as well versed as some Dopers, but I TA'd for bio courses back then and still try to keep up with the field, at least a little bit.

And yeah... I agree and I do think that the OP is saying that a certain group of people (Blacks? Jews? All non-Christians? Simply people who don't agree with him?) evolved from chimps, or maybe even "pigs and apes", and as such are still more 'beastial', but that people who are like him are cool enough to have been created by God, essentially ex nihilo.
Thank you for noticing that, I was really wondering if I was wrong in every particular. Now, if only others could let go..

Der Trihs
03-30-2009, 02:26 AM
There's nothing "daring" about pointing out in this thread that there is no God and there is no afterlife. That's what all the evidence shows, like it or not. You want to know where you are going ? Assuming immortality isn't cracked by science relatively soon, you'll die, and you'll be nonexistent. That's all.i would like you to present that evidence.There's all the physics violating things God is supposed to have done and be; that rules him out, unless you have good evidence he exists. And you have no evidence at all, much less good evidence. And every study of the brain, the effects of brain damage and drugs all point to the brain being the mind. Which means when the brain dies, we do.

And while the evidence presented by science is imperfect ( and always will be ), the evidence for YOUR position is zero. And the track record or faith as a path to truth is one of utter failure. After millennia of unrelenting failure by the believers to be right about any factual question, why should I think you are the one who's right ?

tomndebb
03-30-2009, 06:32 AM
Doesn't matter if its a reply to God himself. It's still wrong in every particular.

So it's honest of you to construct a criticism based on something that you know is factually incorrect is? Interesting interpretation of honesty.

Doesn't matter if you're agreeing with God himself. It's still wrong in every particular.You've made your point, such as it is.

Now let it go.

[ /Moderating ]

kanicbird
03-30-2009, 07:30 AM
.. I don't know if it's the same type of plasma because I never thought of that until just now, so I haven't researched it. I'm sure it's different. but... still a pretty interesting coincidence.

I don't know either, but names mean things and there are spiritual reasons for things like that. Also Jesus came to baptize with fire.

My understanding:
earth+wind = man
fire + wind = demon
earth+fire+wind=nephilum

Water is the life force that comes from God (John 4:13-14) and hell is very dry (Luke 16:24),

Arid places is the places where demons go after they come out of a man (Luke 11:24).



This is when the demons and powers of darkness and principalities were able to take hold of Jesus, and because Jesus took on the sins of ALL men,

This was the result of the actions of Judas, which set the above into non-stoppable motion. At that time it was a done deal spiritually and Satan, the prince of this world' now stands condemned John 16:11 -note statement happened after Judas took the bread but before the arrest, Satan already was condemned.

Jesus clearly stated that only one of the 12 was a devil, and it is made clear that it is Judas. Peter has aspects of his life that is not fully surrendered to God, and as such has given Satan a foothold (Eph 4:27) - which IMHO is pride, which to be able to try to derail Jesus.

Judas was different, in that he was a real fallen angel in the flesh. This scripture I believe speaks to that:

And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.

Judas, a spiritual being was able to be born into the world in physical form. Because when this happens, God keeps them in darkness, as such Judas didn't know he was a demon. Their former knowledge is hidden, but their nature remains. As such Judas had to do the demonic thing and Jesus knew it. By saying it is better that Judas never had been born, means that it would have been better if Judas stayed a spiritual fallen angel then to have been born into the world and be the demon responsible for causing Satan's kingdom to fall, which I would assume would really piss Satan off, which caused such great torment that Judas hanged himself.

Possibly and this is going out on a limb, when Judas came back to hell, his body was torn apart by the demons, releasing the body of Jesus there as well (as Judas took them).

The scriptures speak of other angels in the flesh, such as the ones that dragged Lot out of Sodom. Interestingly enough Lot's wife, who looked back, was turned into a piller of salt, which we think of as a bad thing, but Jesus speaks highly of salt, and it could have been the correct thing to do, look back with compassion on those people.

I believe the false prophetess Jezebel in Rev, along with Queen Jezebel, and others in scripture and people today are also fallen angels in the flesh, some I believe being restored.

p.s. I was informally introduced with you earlier. I wasn't aware I was talking to you. Hello! I hear we have a lot in common... I think we should collaborate. HAHA... perhaps we should discuss preparing weekly sermons and/or Bible studies... pffft... I bet these people would be absolutely THRILLED to participate in something like that.

It has been my experience that God reveals His Word through the Holy Spirit on a personal level, and is the only source of wisdom. Bible studies are good for those in early stages to learn concepts, but is easily distorted and should not be take as a authority.

ianzin
03-30-2009, 09:00 AM
I hear we have a lot in common One thing you both have in common is that your participation in debates on these boards is dishonest. It is dishonest in the sense that you feign to participate in debate and discussion, but when you are asked simple (non-trick) questions not accommodated by your belief systems, you ignore them, slink away and pretend the questions don't exist. You are entitled to do this, of course, and this entitlement is not in dispute. However, when you do so, it shows that you have no intellectual integrity at all, nor any intention of actually participating in an intelligent exchange.

I have asked you, Lacunas, the same simple question (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10984669&postcount=72) three times in this thread, and each time you have chosen to ignore it. So be it.

The same applies to Kanicbird, who has now had multiple opportunities to address this simple question (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10944414&postcount=75) based on his own words, that I asked on the 17th March. So be it.

The rest of us can understand that you both derive some satisfaction, albeit of a pathetic kind, from trying to provoke a reaction and then smugly refusing to address any question that your sick counterfeits of faith and understanding cannot adequately address. This is a shameful form of self-validation, and the rest of could feel sorry that you have none other, if it were not for the hatred and lack of humane values contained in the views you do express.

What a disgrace you are to your own god or gods. Let the record show that you claim to have access to spiritual truths, yet cannot achieve even a semblance of honest discussion.

NineToTheSky
03-30-2009, 09:38 AM
One thing you both have in common is that your participation in debates on these boards is dishonest. It is dishonest in the sense that you feign to participate in debate and discussion, but when you are asked simple (non-trick) questions not accommodated by your belief systems, you ignore them, slink away and pretend the questions don't exist. You are entitled to do this, of course, and this entitlement is not in dispute. However, when you do so, it shows that you have no intellectual integrity at all, nor any intention of actually participating in an intelligent exchange.

I have asked you, Lacunas, the same simple question (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10984669&postcount=72) three times in this thread, and each time you have chosen to ignore it. So be it.

The same applies to Kanicbird, who has now had multiple opportunities to address this simple question (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10944414&postcount=75) based on his own words, that I asked on the 17th March. So be it.

The rest of us can understand that you both derive some satisfaction, albeit of a pathetic kind, from trying to provoke a reaction and then smugly refusing to address any question that your sick counterfeits of faith and understanding cannot adequately address. This is a shameful form of self-validation, and the rest of could feel sorry that you have none other, if it were not for the hatred and lack of humane values contained in the views you do express.

What a disgrace you are to your own god or gods. Let the record show that you claim to have access to spiritual truths, yet cannot achieve even a semblance of honest discussion.

What you asking them to do poses a very interesting question (that actually is worthy of its own thread). I don't think that there is any way in which the actual existence of God can be proved to the satisfaction of a non-believer. I believe in the Purple Man Eating Donkey of Bognor Regis. I know It exists. I have seen It. I have talked to It. I have read about It in the PMEDOBR Book, which has been written by other believers. What more proof do you need? What other proof could I give? What would you accept as proof? You, I presume, believe in love. You can't see it, touch it, hear it or have any concrete evidence of its existence. Many people have written and talked about it, but if I didn't believe in it, how would you prove it to me?

Kanicbird's and Lacunas Quell's inability to respond satisfactorily is because I think, to them, the proof is genuinely self evident. So, I honestly don't think they are trying to be difficult, provocative or dishonest. The question, for them, does not compute.

I hope that they will be along soon to either confirm or deny my supposition.

ianzin
03-30-2009, 10:28 AM
Hi NineToTheSky. My question to Lacunas is not about the existence of god. It's about how this thread is predicated. My question to Kanicbird is not about the existence of god either. It's about an assertion he made about facts and truth.

Revenant Threshold
03-30-2009, 10:33 AM
I'm surprised your question to kanicbird hasn't been answered, ianzin. I often find i'm not entirely convinced of the answers kanicbird gives, let's say, but generally they're pretty forthcoming. Perhaps it's a genuine miss?

NineToTheSky
03-30-2009, 10:42 AM
Hi NineToTheSky. My question to Lacunas is not about the existence of god. It's about how this thread is predicated. My question to Kanicbird is not about the existence of god either. It's about an assertion he made about facts and truth.

(by ianzin) So, first of all, are we to base the discussion using valid logical reasoning and arguments based on empirical, independently verifiable evidence?

If not, what other rules do you suggest we base the discussion on?

If so, then it is self-evidently the case that there is no significance to your question unless Jesus was the son of an entity called God. This too is evidently a moot point unless there is an entity called God. So, first things first, please present your evidence or reasoning supporting the contention that there is an entity called God who/which has the characteristics that you ascribe to him or to it.

Hi yourself :)

Isn't the bit I've bolded asking him to prove the existence of God?

I see what you said to Kanicbird, but I think the question you asked Lacunas Quell applies to him, to an even greater degree.

ianzin
03-30-2009, 10:48 AM
Hi NineToTheSky. In the first instance, the only part Lacunas needs to address is, "So, first of all, are we to base the discussion using valid logical reasoning and arguments based on empirical, independently verifiable evidence?". He hasn't even managed this, despite three opportunities.

We need to get a 'yes' or a 'no' to this question if this debate is to be meaningful. Whatever may or may not follow from his response is a separate issue.

Bryan Ekers
03-30-2009, 10:53 AM
If God exists, let him show himself.


If he already has, let him show himself again. That shouldn't be too hard for him. Lousy lazy God...

NineToTheSky
03-30-2009, 10:57 AM
Hi NineToTheSky. In the first instance, the only part Lacunas needs to address is, "So, first of all, are we to base the discussion using valid logical reasoning and arguments based on empirical, independently verifiable evidence?". He hasn't even managed this, despite three opportunities.

We need to get a 'yes' or a 'no' to this question if this debate is to be meaningful. Whatever may or may not follow from his response is a separate issue.

Yes: I agree. But I would still like to know how they would respond to the second bit, because, as I suggested, I don't think that valid logical reasoning is even necessary for them. As I tried to demonstrate, beliefs are. They transcend evidence etc.

I am playing devil's advocate here (figuratively, guys, figuratively!), so I would really like K & L to speak for themselves.

NineToTheSky
03-30-2009, 11:09 AM
If God exists, let him show himself.


If he already has, let him show himself again. That shouldn't be too hard for him. Lousy lazy God...

In a way, this is the crux of it. He has shown himself to Kanicbird - frequently, if I remember correctly. The fact that you and I haven't seen him/her/it (why should a deity be a man?) is... This is where I'm at a loss. Why haven't you and I seen him? Because if you need to see him to believe, and to believe in him, you have to see him, it gets, as it always seems to, rather circular.

kanicbird
03-30-2009, 11:10 AM
I'm surprised your question to kanicbird hasn't been answered, ianzin. I often find i'm not entirely convinced of the answers kanicbird gives, let's say, but generally they're pretty forthcoming. Perhaps it's a genuine miss?

Hi RT, it was not a genuine miss, but believe the motive behind the asking was to derail the post spiritually and diminish the glory of God. Some here are seeking, some are open to different views. Your questions, and others, are honest and genuine and I try to answer them as I feel lead, and what you do with them is not up to me, I also feel that many questions of yours and others are prompted by God. If one person (lets say yourself) benefits from my reply we both have to benefit equally, as the glory can not go to me for my reply, but to God, who is the one revealing the truth. As such God has used you to help me with my walk with Him.


ianzin's question did not seem prompted by God, and a answer could only confuse the issue, and no benefit could come of it. It was pretty much answered IMHO in my previous post and summed up here: The Word of God is the absolute truth, if the Word is used to ascertain the truth only the Word can be used to challenge.

When I state my case, I can if prompted bring it to the scriptural basis of my post, once at that point, unless someone, can come up with a scriptural based objection there is nothing more that can be said, we are already using the absolute truth. Going backwards to the error that man calls 'facts' serves no purpose but to confuse the issue, and to diminish the Word (Who came in the flesh), who is exalted for ever and ever.

Lacunae Quell
03-30-2009, 11:11 AM
Lucanus, one great thing about this debate forum is we don't care about your life story, we only care about your debate. Yes, I think you're witnessing, not a problem, but what's to debate?

Funny... I don't recall telling my life story. Debate what I'm witnessing.

Try this one on for size: Jesus never existed. He is a myth. The bible, Qur'an and Mormon book of fantasy is exactly that, fantasy, maybe mixed with a little hint on what fellow man has in store for politics.

You see, that doesn't even fit. If Jesus is simply a myth, how come no other mere myth has attained such widespread popularity? If Jesus was a myth, why have there been men and women who have devoted their life to fighting against a myth or dying for a myth? I could understand people thinking the Bible is a fairytale, or the Book of Mormon, but the Qur'an? You do know that the Qur'an is proven to be an original document, right? Since the Qur'an has been written, no one, I repeat, NO ONE has altered or changed or added to or taken from the words of the Qur'an. Word for word it has remained the same over centuries.


First I need you to prove to me he actually existed WITHOUT quoting from the foolish examples you have deemed "the word of god." Even if you can, please explain why this god sent his only son to be not just murdered, but destroyed through methods we've only seen since the "Saw" movies. Couldn't this god have just changed the rules?
"Fuck original sin!", says god, and we all live happily ever after.

If I asked you to prove to me that atoms exist without using "scientific fact", could you do it? I haven't deemed "the Word of God". The Word of God was deemed thousands of years before I was born. If you care so much to know why God sent His only Son to die... read the Bible. God can do anything He desires, but He will not break His own rules. God doesn't cheat.


Or, even if he DID exist, couldn't he have learned to read? I DO know history shows us
(not tells us, but SHOWS us) that there were plenty of signs on walls telling sun-bleached idiots, like your Jesus, that speaking of other gods will lead to their own death. This one fact tells me Jesus was a large and uneducated idiot. Why should I follow one of the dumbest men-- or creations of god-- as an example?

History shows us that, huh? I've never seen it. Please show me. Why do you resort to insulting people I admire? Do you see me insulting your heroes? Back in Jesus' day, if you believed in something so much, and you had an idea, you fought for it to the death. Nowadays with so much freedom of speech, we can hardly grasp what that really means. Do you also believe that Socrates was an idiot? Do you believe those persecuted in the name of science were idiots? They obviously had seen or heard of others put to death for suggesting ideas that went against what the Church believed. So maybe, just maybe, Jesus wasn't ignorant or stupid after all. Maybe Jesus had life changing information that the Churches of His time saw as a threat to society, so they put Him to death.


One thing that led me to investigate and believe that god is a crock of shit is exactly what you are going through right now. You were told the answers are all in here-- the bible-- yet, you found none. Congratulations. This is a good thing. So, you start asking and investigating other religious folk and get the same nonsense. You watch the news, see the violence.... if you keep investigating, you'll eventually find salvation...

... when you throw the fucking holy books away.

I wish you my best on your quest.

I've found ALL the answers I needed in the Bible. I can even quote non-Christian sources that talk about Jesus, even His crucifixion.

Salvation doesn't come from a Holy Book.

I have been investigating these sorts of things for over 8 years now, I have gathered evidence, I have made my decision. See, the thing about you non-believers is that you don't continue investigating, and any proof you DO actually find you throw off as junk because you don't want it to be true.

If scientific fact proved that God and Jesus existed, people like you would find ways to say it was all a mistake and find ways to deny what your science proved was true. That is why your precious scientific fact will never prove the existence of God... because God is no idiot. He knows the hearts of men.

NineToTheSky
03-30-2009, 11:18 AM
Kanicbird and Lacunas Quell:

Are my suppositions in posts 157 and 163 correct?

I am genuinely interested in your views, and my purpose in asking is not to denigrate either of you; all I want is to learn more about other people's viewpoints and beliefs.

Clothahump
03-30-2009, 11:20 AM
Who Killed Jesus?

Jesus is supposed to have been a demigod who existed some 2000 years ago. Please show proof of his existence.

Mind you, I don't want religious twaddle. Show definitive proof from non-religious sources of his existence and confirmation of the miracles he is supposed to have performed.

Thank you.

Grumman
03-30-2009, 11:43 AM
Because if you need to see him to believe, and to believe in him, you have to see him, it gets, as it always seems to, rather circular.
That is not circular logic. That is the same thing ([see God]->[believe]) said twice in slightly different ways. It's only circular logic if you also stated that you must believe in God in order to be able to see God ([belief]->[see God]).

Bryan Ekers
03-30-2009, 11:46 AM
Debate what I'm witnessing.

Sure. And maybe afterward we ask end tables about music.

Lacunae Quell
03-30-2009, 11:48 AM
Yay! We finally get to the debate!

LQ, how a debate is done, you pose that you are a descendant of Adam & Eve.
Adam & Eve is a fable. You have to prove that Adam & Eve existed before you can say you are a descendant of them. Please provide a cite that proves they exist, AND NO IT CANNOT BE THE BIBLE.

Prove they didn't exist. Oh... and where is your missing link? You know... Science still hasn't discovered the common ancestor between the great apes and human... yet you accept as a fact that we have one? Hypocritical much?

I can use the Bible all I want. I can use whatever information I so choose. The only reason simians say a Christian can't use the Bible for any debate is because the simian has absolutely NOTHING to refute the Bible with!! Your scientific fact CANNOT prove the words of the Bible false. That is only a matter of personal opinion.

I'm guessing you aren't Asian. If Adam & Eve are the original bloodline for everyone,
how did all those millions of Asians acquire a dual epicanthic fold on they're eyelids?

No, I'm not Asian. I can't tell you how Asians got that fold. How about you tell me EXACTLY how they got that fold and at what point in their evolution. Truth is that you can't. Nobody knows...

"But why are certain racial features as they are? Oftentimes we simply do not know. Nobody knows, for example, why Orientals have epicanthic eye folds or flatter facial profiles. The thin lips of Caucasoids and most Mongoloids have no known advantages over the full lips of Negroids. Why should middle-aged and older Caucasoid men go bald so much more frequently than the men of other races? Why does the skin of Bushmen wrinkle so heavily in the middle and later years? Or why does the skin of Negroids resist wrinkling so well? These are questions for which we currently possess no answers". (taken fromhttp://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2007)

My best guess to how they got they fold if descendants of Adam and Eve would be some sort of genetic mutation.

"Adam and Eve could have lived forever had it not been for their corruption by sin, and their consequent expulsion from Eden (Genesis 3:1-6). Hence, no harmful genetic traits had emerged at this point that could have been expressed in the children of closely related partners. However, after many generations, and especially after the Noahic Flood (Genesis 6-9), solar and cosmic radiation, chemical and viral mutagens, and DNA replication errors, led to the multiplication of genetic disorders".(taken fromhttp://www.apologeticspress.org/modules.php?name=Read&cat=12&itemid=2181)((original question was "Where did Cain get his wife"?))

If you are white like a southern bible-basher, you probably didn't come from Adam & eve either. You'd most likely look like an Egyptian. Dark eyes, have you?

Nope. I'm not a Bible-basher either. However, beside the FACT that not all people who believe in Jesus Christ are white southern Bible bashers, and beside the FACT that some normal looking whities have Native American blood, it doesn't matter what color I am.

Prove they didn't exist. Oh... and where is your missing link? You know... Science still hasn't discovered the common ancestor between the great apes and human... yet you accept as a fact that we have one? Hypocritical much?

Here is something that might help explain how all the races spawned from Adam and Eve...

Most people, when they speak of a “race,” refer to the racial characteristic of skin coloration. For the purpose of the present discussion, I will limit my discussion, for the most part, to the origin of such a characteristic (being careful to do so only in an accommodative sense). In humans, production of the skin coloring agent melanin is controlled by two pairs of genes. We can designate them Aa and Bb, the capital letters representing dominant genes and the small letters recessive genes. A and B, being dominant, produce melanin very well; being recessive, a and b produce melanin to a lesser degree.

Gary Parker, in his book, Creation: The Facts of Life (1980, pp. 77-81), has observed that if Adam and Eve were both AABB, they could have produced only children with the darkest coloration possible, and they themselves likewise would have been dark. That, barring genetic mutations (to be discussed later), would have produced a world composed only of dark-skinned people. But, as has been noted already, the Negroid race composes less than 10% of the world’s population, so by a process of elimination, this choice can be ruled out.

If Adam and Eve both had been aabb, they could have had only children that were aabb, that being the lightest coloration possible. Then, the world would contain no other groupings. But it does. So, this option also is ruled out by a process of elimination.

The real question is this: Is there a mechanism by which the racial characteristics which we see today could have originated with one human couple—in the short, few thousand year or so history of the Earth?

The answer is a resounding yes! If Adam and Eve had been “heterozygous” (AaBb; two dominant, two recessive genes), they would have been middle-brown in color. And, from them—in one generation—racial differences could have occurred quite easily. Figure 1 expresses the genetic possibilities that could result if Adam and Eve had been heterozygous. Note that in a single generation, one could expect (theoretically) these colorations to be produced: 1 darkest; 4 dark; 6 medium; 4 light; and 1 lightest.

A person born AABB carries genes for the darkest coloration possible, and since all genes are dominant, has no genes for lightness. If that person married another person who likewise carried all dominant genes, and moved to an area where no intermarriage with people of different colors occurred, the offspring resulting from this marriage then would carry the same dominant genes. These offspring will have “lost” the ability to be “white.” Conversely, if a person who is aabb, and thus the lightest possible, marries another person who likewise carries all recessive genes, and moves into an area where no intermarriage with people of other colors occurs, henceforth this union will produce only offspring of the lightest possible coloration. The offspring so produced will have “lost” the ability to be “black.” They no longer have the genes necessary to produce enough melanin for the black color.

Thus, starting with any two parents who were heterozygous (i.e., middle-brown in color), extreme racial colors (black and white, to name only two examples) could be produced in such a way that races would have permanently different colors. Of course, it also is possible to produce a middle-brown race that will have a fixed middle-brown color. If the original middle-brown parents produce offspring of either AAbb or aaBB, and these offspring marry only others their own color, avoiding intermarriage with those not of their own genetic makeup, their descendants will be a fixed middle-brown color.

(taken fromhttp://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2007)

kanicbird
03-30-2009, 11:51 AM
Kanicbird and Lacunas Quell:

Are my suppositions in posts 157 and 163 correct?

I am genuinely interested in your views, and my purpose in asking is not to denigrate either of you; all I want is to learn more about other people's viewpoints and beliefs.

It's not that it does not compute, I understand the logic of man behind them, but it's as I stated in my above post, once we are using the Word of God and the wisdom of God contained therein, the only thing that can challenge it is the Word of God. Using the wisdom of man is like throwing pebbles at the starship Enterprise to bring it down from orbit.

Lacunae Quell
03-30-2009, 11:53 AM
Perhaps he thinks that they are one of those other, lesser groups of people that evolved from animals instead of being made in God's image like him.

I don't appreciate you insinuating I'm racist. I believe all of mankind, all races, spawned from Adam and Eve. I don't see black or white or Asian or Indian when I look at someone... I see another human being.

NineToTheSky
03-30-2009, 11:57 AM
That is not circular logic. That is the same thing ([see God]->[believe]) said twice in slightly different ways. It's only circular logic if you also stated that you must believe in God in order to be able to see God ([belief]->[see God]).

Hah! you're right. What you've said is what I meant to say.

Lacunae Quell
03-30-2009, 12:04 PM
No, no, no! Zeus lives. After all, either Homer was lying, crazy, or right. He never said anything crazy (nothing like virgin birth or changing humans into animals or anything like that), and he said obviously good things like "Don't kidnap other people's wives", and he clearly wouldn't have said those things if he was lying. So, the Greek gods exist. In fact, exactly the same reasoning can be applied to Mohammed, Joseph Smith, and pretty much every other religious prophet. Keep in mind, most of us here don't consider the Bible as any better authority than the Iliad or Gilgamesh.

So, what's so great about faith? It's gives you certainty. But what if what you're so certain about is wrong? Clearly, people who go on faith can be wrong; people who believed in the Greek gods were apparently wrong, weren't they? I mean, either they were wrong, or you are. So clearly, faith leads some people down the wrong path. How do you know you're not one of them?

The only way I can think of is to, well, check. See if what your faith tells you corresponds with the real world. That would be science. Maybe you trust your faith more than science, but what's the last tangible thing faith gave you? Science gives us cars, airplanes, television, computers... Faith has given us, what? Lack of use of condoms? So, science hasn't discovered everything yet, and probably never will. Some is better than none. What your omniscient creator says doesn't really matter unless it could be verified.

How do you know that science will never figure out how the mind works? We haven't figured it out yet, so we never will? And we've already made enormous amounts of progress in that area. If we had no idea how the brain worked, we wouldn't be able to make drugs that help mental disorders. Ask my dad, Prozac is great for his depression.

Why do you think your god exists, but these ones (http://ancienthistory.about.com/library/bl/bl_myth_gods_index.htm) don't?

Even IF my faith is wrong, and I live a life serving Jesus only to die and find out that after death all consciousness ends and all I become is a rotting corpse in the ground, what did I lose? Now, if my faith holds true (which it does and will), and when I die and after the Day of Judgment, look at what I've gained, and look at what those who denied a faith in Christ lose.

Faith has given me hope. Faith has shown me things that you those lack faith will never, ever, EVER, not in a billion years, see. So if I have seen what tangible evidence faith produces with my own eyes, I'm either lying, crazy, or telling the truth.

I never said I didn't believe in the other gods or goddesses. I said from the beginning that I believe the Holy Trinity is God, and that there is no power greater than they. I might believe in Zeus, but I believe there is One greater than Zeus, and I believe there is none greater than the Holy Trinity.

Marley23
03-30-2009, 12:09 PM
I know there's zero to be gained from discussing this with you, Lacunas Quell, but since it only takes a few seconds-

You know... Science still hasn't discovered the common ancestor between the great apes and human...
The descent there has been very well established. Nobody who knows anything about this would assert there's a missing link out there.
Even IF my faith is wrong, and I live a life serving Jesus only to die and find out that after death all consciousness ends and all I become is a rotting corpse in the ground, what did I lose? Now, if my faith holds true (which it does and will), and when I die and after the Day of Judgment, look at what I've gained, and look at what those who denied a faith in Christ lose.
Nobody here is going to be impressed by Pascal's Wager. It's a ridiculous argument that presumes people can choose what to believe, a proposition I find dubious. And if you don't accept the premise of gods and heavens and hells, there's nothing to lose anyway.

FinnAgain
03-30-2009, 12:19 PM
The descent there has been very well established. Nobody who knows anything about this would assert there's a missing link out there.

Further, we all know by now that when arguing with a creationist (let alone a YEC), that every 'link' we present only allows them to reflexively claim "Ah hah! Look! Now there are two gaps!"

It's generally just best to post the Primer for Erisian Evangelists or Pamphlet 1.


Nobody here is going to be impressed by Pascal's Wager. It's a ridiculous argument that presumes people can choose what to believe, a proposition I find dubious. And if you don't accept the premise of gods and heavens and hells, there's nothing to lose anyway.

It also ignores the fact that the Christians making it are deliberately trying to stack the deck ahead of time. It's easy to pretend that the only options are Jesus and not-Jesus, but that ignores the fact that, say, if Jesus is a myth then Christians are going to be in trouble when the valkyries do not choose them for a life in paradise. Or when their lack of devotion to the gods prohibits them from gaining entrance to the Elysian Fields. Or if Islam is right and Jesus was a prophet, but not the final word on what God wants and Christians have been ignoring the true Word of God for centuries now.

To say nothing of the blinding hate of J.R. "Bob" Dobbs.

ianzin
03-30-2009, 12:26 PM
So, a recap... Kanicbird asserted that truths are above facts (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10944379&postcount=74).

I asked him if this was a fact (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10944414&postcount=75).

He ducked this simple question for two weeks (he has finally admitted this), and has come up with this, the best answer he can offer: ianzin's question did not seem prompted by God, and a answer could only confuse the issue, and no benefit could come of it. It was pretty much answered IMHO in my previous post and summed up here: The Word of God is the absolute truth, if the Word is used to ascertain the truth only the Word can be used to challenge.

When I state my case, I can if prompted bring it to the scriptural basis of my post, once at that point, unless someone, can come up with a scriptural based objection there is nothing more that can be said, we are already using the absolute truth. Going backwards to the error that man calls 'facts' serves no purpose but to confuse the issue, and to diminish the Word (Who came in the flesh), who is exalted for ever and ever.

Some may form the opinion that parts of this are sub-literate and literally meaningless, and parts of it are moronic drivel. What I would point out is that by Kanicbird's own words and reasoning, if what he has written here is a truth (as he defines it), then it is not a fact. This is all that needs to be said.

Still no reply from Lacunas Quell.

NineToTheSky
03-30-2009, 12:35 PM
Apologies for the hijack.

ianzin - you are being called for over here (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=10986793#post10986793).

Lacunae Quell
03-30-2009, 12:40 PM
For cryin' out loud...

When do you intend to start? This is a two page thread already, and we haven't seen any sign of anything even distantly related to intelligent discussion.

I have started. Just because I might not have all my thoughts in order, or because I use the Bible and other Holy texts as a source of information doesn't mean I haven't been having intelligent conversation.

Compare my posts with Kanic to the posts of other people, and you'll see this. I am not a scientist. I believe science exists, but I do not believe science has all the answers. There are things science cannot prove, will not prove, yet science is still considered a god because of what it has done. To put your faith in science is as foolish to me as it is to some people for me to put my faith in God.

Besides, before we can have an intelligent discussion about any of this, we have to agree what rules are in play. If we don't agree the rules, it's like two guys with a deck of cards, and one thinks the game is blackjack while the other thinks it is poker... not going to be much of a game, is it?

I'll start a new thread with a topic of debate, or by all means, you can start one, just let me know about it... but start a new, fresh thread. I realize that there was never an actual topic of debate in this thread, but I have done my best, and answered to the best of my abilities, all the posts I could.


So, first of all, are we to base the discussion using valid logical reasoning and arguments based on empirical, independently verifiable evidence?


If not, what other rules do you suggest we base the discussion on?


Anything goes. People can make stuff up for all I care... I just don't want anyone saying I can't use the Bible (or any other Holy text) as a source of information. If I am claiming to be a Christian, that is my tool, I should have every right to use my tools. If you claim to be a Scientist, use your precious Science, but actually use it... I noticed in this thread that people who support scientific fact rarely even use it. If the do use it, they don't quote their source. I understand some people may have, but it's hard for me to keep up with this nightmare thread.


If so, then it is self-evidently the case that there is no significance to your question unless Jesus was the son of an entity called God. This too is evidently a moot point unless there is an entity called God. So, first things first, please present your evidence or reasoning supporting the contention that there is an entity called God who/which has the characteristics that you ascribe to him or to it.

After all, if you want to have an intelligent discussion, we have to deal with first things first.

Here is my evidence... Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning GOD created the heavens and the earth".

Here is some logical evidence... I'm not the first or only person to believe in God.

This is a little off topic, but will somewhat support my case... You do know about the Vatican Library, yes? You know that NO ONE can enter that library without permission of the pope, yes? There is SO much documentation in the Vatican library that, we as humans, should have access to. The Vatican is wrongly holding knowledge and information from billions of people. There are works in the Vatican library that they DO NOT want us to see because it will change our perception of EVERYTHING we have EVER known.

p.s. I'm strongly against the Catholic religion. It doesn't bother me if you're a devout catholic, my beef is with the leaders of that religion. I do not believe the pope speaks to the Lord Jesus. The Catholic church is in alliance with the forces of evil and darkness. The leaders of the Catholic religion mislead their followers by distorting and withholding truth.

Marley23
03-30-2009, 12:42 PM
It's generally just best to post the Primer for Erisian Evangelists or Pamphlet 1.
If this keeps up I'll probably skip straight to the Turkey Curse.

GIGObuster
03-30-2009, 12:44 PM
Gary Parker, in his book, Creation: The Facts of Life (1980, pp. 77-81), has observed that if Adam and Eve were both AABB, they could have produced only children with the darkest coloration possible, and they themselves likewise would have been dark.
The SAME Gary Parker writer of "Dry Bones" where he attempts to show how fossils come from the great flood? :rolleyes:

Color me unimpressed.

The bible would have mentioned the oddity of different races appearing all of the sudden. Unless you want to bring back the old full of prejudiced chestnut of the mark of Cain being black skin.

FinnAgain
03-30-2009, 12:49 PM
The SAME Gary Parker writer of "Dry Bones" where he attempts to show how fossils come from the great flood?

Ha ha ha, I'm a Prankster God. I am killing me! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qmglGWMsdk)

Bryan Ekers
03-30-2009, 12:50 PM
This is a little off topic, but will somewhat support my case... You do know about the Vatican Library, yes? You know that NO ONE can enter that library without permission of the pope, yes? There is SO much documentation in the Vatican library that, we as humans, should have access to. The Vatican is wrongly holding knowledge and information from billions of people. There are works in the Vatican library that they DO NOT want us to see because it will change our perception of EVERYTHING we have EVER known.

I'm inclined to doubt the Catholics have anything shocking. Can you speculate for us? What do you think is the most mind-blowing bit of information the Vatican has?

Marley23
03-30-2009, 12:53 PM
I'm inclined to doubt the Catholics have anything shocking. Can you speculate for us? What do you think is the most mind-blowing bit of information the Vatican has?
You know, I can accept that people have ridiculous ideas about miracle cures of disease (okay, it offended me a little), or the origins of life, human diversity, the fossil record and a lot of other things, but when they start spouting Da Vinci Code-style craziness, that's much worse.

FinnAgain
03-30-2009, 12:53 PM
I'm inclined to doubt the Catholics have anything shocking. Can you speculate for us? What do you think is the most mind-blowing bit of information the Vatican has?

Jesus... was a Jew!!!

ianzin
03-30-2009, 01:16 PM
Just because I might not have all my thoughts in order, or because I use the Bible and other Holy texts as a source of information doesn't mean I haven't been having intelligent conversation. Yes, it does.

science is still considered a godNo, it isn't. It's considered to be science.

I realize that there was never an actual topic of debate in this thread So why is it in a forum entitled 'Great Debates?'.

but I have done my best You said it.

Anything goes. People can make stuff up for all I care... Then you are in the wrong place. The basic idea around here is to fight ignorance, not spread it around. It's not about making stuff up. It's about sorting the stuff that's true from the stuff that isn't. But I welcome your admission that you simply don't care about this distinction, a point which your other posts have made abudantly clear.

GIGObuster
03-30-2009, 01:23 PM
Here is my evidence... Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning GOD created the heavens and the earth".
The Andromeda Galaxy is approximately 2.5 million light-years away.

It can be faintly seen outside a city. Can you explain why god made more impressive scenery (and early) that the spot where we are right now?

Not to mention that the evidence shows stars (the sun) were created first.

Here is some logical evidence... I'm not the first or only person to believe in God.
Of course, however the evidence shows that Prometheus was giving fire to hominids 250,000 years ago. :)

This is a little off topic, but will somewhat support my case... You do know about the Vatican Library, yes? You know that NO ONE can enter that library without permission of the pope, yes? There is SO much documentation in the Vatican library that, we as humans, should have access to. The Vatican is wrongly holding knowledge and information from billions of people. There are works in the Vatican library that they DO NOT want us to see because it will change our perception of EVERYTHING we have EVER known.

Mostly, lots of bulls :)
http://www.slate.com/id/2176016/
Despite the name, the archives aren't a secret in the hush-hush, classified sense. Instead, the word secret in this case means that the archives are private. To use them, you have to go through an application process and prove that you're a seasoned researcher with a specific project in mind—and specific documents that you're looking for.

p.s. I'm strongly against the Catholic religion. It doesn't bother me if you're a devout catholic, my beef is with the leaders of that religion. I do not believe the pope speaks to the Lord Jesus. The Catholic church is in alliance with the forces of evil and darkness. The leaders of the Catholic religion mislead their followers by distorting and withholding truth.
Good, because it was the early Catholic church that decided to put the book of Revelation in the New Testament.

Now why then later Christians then want to use that book to justify hate against the ones that put the book there in the first place is really weird.

Lacunae Quell
03-30-2009, 01:55 PM
Kanicbird and Lacunas Quell:

Are my suppositions in posts 157 and 163 correct?

I am genuinely interested in your views, and my purpose in asking is not to denigrate either of you; all I want is to learn more about other people's viewpoints and beliefs.

I don't believe your intentions are to criticize us. While others have asked us to prove God exists, they only said that because they know we can't physically prove that. It's not like they're actually expecting us to post a picture of us having with God at the Red Lobster with the caption "Then God said... Let there be butter". I mean... even if I could ask God to manifest Himself before non-believers... anyone who actually was able to look upon God would instantly be vaporized because of His absolute perfection and holiness. Anything we could possibly use as evidence could be proven with science as well... which only makes sense because God created everything including science and physics and math.

I greatly appreciate and respect the amount of respect you are showing and giving to us by treating us like humans. The others have seemed to display an attitude that makes us look like we evolved from apes.

What you asking them to do poses a very interesting question (that actually is worthy of its own thread). I don't think that there is any way in which the actual existence of God can be proved to the satisfaction of a non-believer. I believe in the Purple Man Eating Donkey of Bognor Regis. I know It exists. I have seen It. I have talked to It. I have read about It in the PMEDOBR Book, which has been written by other believers. What more proof do you need? What other proof could I give? What would you accept as proof? You, I presume, believe in love. You can't see it, touch it, hear it or have any concrete evidence of its existence. Many people have written and talked about it, but if I didn't believe in it, how would you prove it to me?

Kanicbird's and Lacunas Quell's inability to respond satisfactorily is because I think, to them, the proof is genuinely self evident. So, I honestly don't think they are trying to be difficult, provocative or dishonest. The question, for them, does not compute.

First and foremost(even though I came back and typed this last)... thank you, Nine. That was well written and well said, and while I do compute what ianzin was asking, I could find no way to answer him/her until after I read your post. With that said...

Kanic and I aren't making a stand for our beliefs just because we simply believe and have faith. We have experienced the Love of God, and that is why we believe and have our faith.

I cannot prove the existence of God to anyone through my own abilities. I can show or tell you why I believe and have faith, but the only way for a non-believer to have their own, satisfying, concrete evidence of the existence of God would be to experience it. That is the one thing they don't want to do, though. To experience it and see proof, you have to believe it, and non-believers simply refuse to believe. How is that a believer's fault?

So if you can't get a satisfying shred of evidence from Kanic or I about the existence of God, don't blame us. Blame yourself. Kanic and I can only do so much and only have so much within our abilities to work with... but at least we're using what we've got.

Marley23
03-30-2009, 02:00 PM
The others have seemed to display an attitude that makes us look like we evolved from apes.
Which you did. So did everybody else you know.
So if you can't get a satisfying shred of evidence from Kanic or I about the existence of God, don't blame us. Blame yourself. Kanic and I can only do so much and only have so much within our abilities to work with... but at least we're using what we've got.
Isn't that kind of a passive-aggressive attitude for a follower of an almighty god to take? I'd never speak about my own deity that way.

Lacunae Quell
03-30-2009, 02:24 PM
And yeah... I agree and I do think that the OP is saying that a certain group of people (Blacks? Jews? All non-Christians? Simply people who don't agree with him?) evolved from chimps, or maybe even "pigs and apes", and as such are still more 'beastial', but that people who are like him are cool enough to have been created by God, essentially ex nihilo.

Why have several of you tried to make me look like I'm racist when I'm not. Are all people who don't agree with me African-American or Jewish? Are you all African-Americans? I doubt it, simply because they are a minority, and I highly doubt that everyone posting except me is a Jewish Negroid anti-Christ. AND NO! I was not being racist by using Negroid. Negro and Negroid are acceptable when not used in a hateful slandering manner or when used historically or scientifically. I was using it in scientific context.

If you choose to believe humans are the descendant of a type of ape-like creature, that is what you choose to believe. I'm not going to attempt to disagree with you because I know that God created all things and I also know that there are a lot, and I do mean A LOT, of different animals that do not exist (ASFAWK) today. However, I believe that God created the first parents from the dust of the Earth and all humans since were a result of them, as the Bible says... however, the creation account in Genesis chapters 1 and 2 are slightly different, and if anyone is interested I will gladly show you verse by verse why I believe that evolution and creation can co-exist, and explain to you my theory of how all of humankind can have both ape-like ancestors AND two first parents and why there is a missing-link.

kanicbird
03-30-2009, 02:30 PM
Isn't that kind of a passive-aggressive attitude for a follower of an almighty god to take? I'd never speak about my own deity that way.
It is God's job to prove himself to the person, in that respect it's not my job, nor Lacunas Quell's. What is my job is doing the task God wants to work through me - including some posts and exchanges, which may or may not bring someone to Him. He decides, if we try to circumvent that it will fail.

God must get the glory.

Fear Itself
03-30-2009, 02:34 PM
God must get the glory.And the blame.

tomndebb
03-30-2009, 02:44 PM
I can use the Bible all I want. I can use whatever information I so choose. The only reason simians say a Christian can't use the Bible for any debate is because the simian has absolutely NOTHING to refute the Bible with!!I have mentioned on two occasions that personal insults are not part of this forum's practice.

This is an official Warning that you are out of line. Stop the insults or find some other board to post.

[ /Moderating ]

GIGObuster
03-30-2009, 02:47 PM
I will gladly show you verse by verse why I believe that evolution and creation can co-exist, and explain to you my theory of how all of humankind can have both ape-like ancestors AND two first parents and why there is a missing-link.
There is really no way to ignore that this peculiar taxonomy does assume that some humans are better than others, and by divine right no less.

kanicbird
03-30-2009, 02:57 PM
There is really no way to ignore that this peculiar taxonomy does assume that some humans are better than others, and by divine right no less.

Depending on what you mean by better, there are differences, not on the person so much but their position of authority which is God ordained. Free or slave, some have a divine right to benefit from the labor of others till the time for God to make the oppressors the oppressed. Also some are 'mighty men', others are divinely anointed. Fallen humanity is full of inequalities.

Lacunae Quell
03-30-2009, 02:58 PM
The SAME Gary Parker writer of "Dry Bones" where he attempts to show how fossils come from the great flood? :rolleyes:

Color me unimpressed.

The bible would have mentioned the oddity of different races appearing all of the sudden. Unless you want to bring back the old full of prejudiced chestnut of the mark of Cain being black skin.

Just because the Bible only mentions Cain, Able, and Seth doesn't mean that Adam and Eve didn't have more children. Obviously Cain and Seth got their wives from somewhere, so quite obviously Adam and Eve had more than 3 children(and yes, Cain was married to his sister).

Sh!t... if you could have unprotected sex for over 800 years, I believe you'd be making lots of babies too. Sex was just as enjoyable then as it is today... and God also commanded them to be fruitful and multiply... in fact, that was God the very first thing God said to Adam and Eve after creating them.

Genesis 1:27-28(paraphrased)

27. God created a creature like Him, man was created in the image of God. God created both the male and the female.

28. Then God blessed them and said to them "Fuck. I promise you'll like it. Do it a lot. Eve, when your stomach starts to bulge, don't be frightened. That's just another man growing inside you. Sure it's gonna hurt like a bitch when something the size of a watermelon squeezes out of something the size of a lemon, but that's why I created sex and made it feel so good. Make lots of men and with them rule over all of My creation.

In response to Cain being black... perhaps he was, but just because he could have been black has nothing to do with why he killed his brother. The Bible doesn't say "And because Cain was black he killed his brother".

The Bible mentions three of Noah's sons that were a different color from one another. In the short time from Adam to Noah (950 years, Noah was born 20 years after Adam died) there were already at least three different skin colors.

Lacunae Quell
03-30-2009, 03:01 PM
I'm inclined to doubt the Catholics have anything shocking. Can you speculate for us? What do you think is the most mind-blowing bit of information the Vatican has?

Perhaps I should rephrase what I meant by the Vatican library. What I meant was the Vatican secret archives which contains 150,000 manuscripts.

Historical and credible documentation of intelligent extraterrestrial life.

Alessan
03-30-2009, 03:05 PM
...and we're down the rabbit hole.

Fear Itself
03-30-2009, 03:07 PM
Historical and credible documentation of intelligent extraterrestrial life.So you have read this secret document?

SteveG1
03-30-2009, 03:07 PM
Tribune Mustard . . . in the Temple . . . with a gladius ?

I just noticed this thread, and already someone beat me to it.

Cool story bro :D

GIGObuster
03-30-2009, 03:07 PM
...and we're down the rabbit hole.

Yep, it is looking worse than what I imagined.

Der Trihs
03-30-2009, 03:12 PM
What you asking them to do poses a very interesting question (that actually is worthy of its own thread). I don't think that there is any way in which the actual existence of God can be proved to the satisfaction of a non-believer. I believe in the Purple Man Eating Donkey of Bognor Regis. I know It exists. I have seen It. I have talked to It. I have read about It in the PMEDOBR Book, which has been written by other believers. What more proof do you need? What other proof could I give? What would you accept as proof? You, I presume, believe in love. You can't see it, touch it, hear it or have any concrete evidence of its existence. Many people have written and talked about it, but if I didn't believe in it, how would you prove it to me?Develop a good enough brain scan to identify the brain activity we experience as love. And at any rate, the standard of proof for a variant of something we know to exist - emotion - is much lower than the standard for a physics breaking entity we have zero evidence is even possible, much less real.

You see, that doesn't even fit. If Jesus is simply a myth, how come no other mere myth has attained such widespread popularity? If Jesus was a myth, why have there been men and women who have devoted their life to fighting against a myth or dying for a myth? I could understand people thinking the Bible is a fairytale, or the Book of Mormon, but the Qur'an? You do know that the Qur'an is proven to be an original document, right? Since the Qur'an has been written, no one, I repeat, NO ONE has altered or changed or added to or taken from the words of the Qur'an. Word for word it has remained the same over centuries.Even if true, that just means it's woefully out of date. And plenty of stupid, evil beliefs ( and yes, I think Christianity is both very stupid, and very evil ) have spread far and wide, and plenty of people have died for them.

If I asked you to prove to me that atoms exist without using "scientific fact", could you do it?Yes. We have pictures, and can manipulate them one by one these days, you know. Not that being a "scientific fact" somehow makes something implausible; rather the opposite. As opposed to religion, which has a track record of being wrong so bad that religious claims can safely be dismissed out of hand. One of the prominent features of religion is that it's always wrong.

I haven't deemed "the Word of God". The Word of God was deemed thousands of years before I was born. If you care so much to know why God sent His only Son to die... read the Bible. God can do anything He desires, but He will not break His own rules. God doesn't cheat. More empty assertions.

Why do you resort to insulting people I admire? Do you see me insulting your heroes?You insult science, which is the closest I have. And I insult your heroes because they were fools and scum.

I have been investigating these sorts of things for over 8 years now, I have gathered evidence, I have made my decision.Garbage; you have no evidence at all.

See, the thing about you non-believers is that you don't continue investigating, and any proof you DO actually find you throw off as junk because you don't want it to be true.

If scientific fact proved that God and Jesus existed, people like you would find ways to say it was all a mistake and find ways to deny what your science proved was true. That is why your precious scientific fact will never prove the existence of God... because God is no idiot. He knows the hearts of men.No; science will never prove the existence of God for the same reason it'll never prove the existence of Sauron; both are fictional. We non-believers don't throw out evidence; we've never had any to throw out.

Perhaps he thinks that they are one of those other, lesser groups of people that evolved from animals instead of being made in God's image like him.I don't appreciate you insinuating I'm racist. I believe all of mankind, all races, spawned from Adam and Eve. I don't see black or white or Asian or Indian when I look at someone... I see another human being.Now you are contradicting yourself; first you say you think that some people evolved, but YOU didn't. Now you say everyone didn't.

I can use the Bible all I want. I can use whatever information I so choose. The only reason simians say a Christian can't use the Bible for any debate is because the simian has absolutely NOTHING to refute the Bible with!! Your scientific fact CANNOT prove the words of the Bible false. Of course it can, as can simple logic. When archaeology shows the events and things claimed in the Bible to be incorrect, or when contradictions are found - that's disproof. Not that it really needs disproving; there's no reason to take the Bible any more seriously than any other book of myths written by ignorant primitives.

Here is some logical evidence... I'm not the first or only person to believe in God. And people have also believed in the inferiority of women, that the Sun orbited the Earth, in spontaneous generation, and in innumerable other errors. Your error is just one more.

While others have asked us to prove God exists, they only said that because they know we can't physically prove that.We say that because we know you have no evidence whatsoever, beyond your unsupported word.

I cannot prove the existence of God to anyone through my own abilities. I can show or tell you why I believe and have faith, but the only way for a non-believer to have their own, satisfying, concrete evidence of the existence of God would be to experience it. That is the one thing they don't want to do, though. To experience it and see proof, you have to believe it, and non-believers simply refuse to believe. How is that a believer's fault?We don't "refuse to believe"; we've never been given any reason to. It's a rather amusing closed system you have there, by the way; the only ones who can see the "proof" are those who already believe. How very convenient.

So if you can't get a satisfying shred of evidence from Kanic or I about the existence of God, don't blame us. Blame yourself. Kanic and I can only do so much and only have so much within our abilities to work with... but at least we're using what we've got.Which is nothing. No, I'll think I'll go on blaming you.

Lobohan
03-30-2009, 03:13 PM
So... space aliens killed Jesus?

Lacunae Quell
03-30-2009, 03:15 PM
And the blame.

Blame for what? I know there are horrible things that happen in the world today, but that was the result of what man has done.

I suppose you believe God should take the blame for global warming because EVERYONE knows that God created the first automobile factory.

Der Trihs
03-30-2009, 03:16 PM
...and we're down the rabbit hole.We STARTED down the rabbit hole. If anything, the claim that the Vatican has evidence of intelligent alien life is far more plausible than his other claims. It doesn't violate the laws of physics, or known scientific facts like God and creationism do. It's just highly, highly unlikely, not impossible.

Jragon
03-30-2009, 03:17 PM
perhaps you should prove to me how the similarities in the genes between humans and great apes proves human and ape evolved from a common ancestor... and even more importantly, maybe you should mention the fact that there are crucial gaps and differences in great ape and human genes! Just because something is similar doesn't mean it is the same or came from a common ancestor.

looks like the hardcore Jesus Freak is going to be the first person to use scientific evidence. And you would think that those who support it so dearly would have been bombarding us with Scientific fact... at least I haven't seen anyone use their "scientific proof" or "evidence" or "fact". So I will use it for you... and you will see your ignorance, and you will continue to deny the truth and your ignorance.

To map the chimp genome, researchers used DNA from the blood of a male common chimpanzee (Pan troglodytes) named Clint, who lived at the Yerkes National Primate Research Center in Atlanta. Clint died last year from heart failure at the relatively young age of 24.

A comparison of Clint's genetic blueprints with that of the human genome shows that our closest living relatives share 96 percent of our DNA. The number of genetic differences between humans and chimps is ten times smaller than that between mice and rats.

Scientists also discovered that some classes of genes are changing unusually quickly in both humans and chimpanzees, as compared with other mammals. These classes include genes involved in the perception of sound, transmission of nerve signals, and the production of sperm.

Despite the similarities in human and chimp genomes, the scientists identified some 40 million differences among the three billion DNA molecules, or nucleotides, in each genome.

The vast majority of those differences are not biologically significant, but researchers were able to identify a couple thousand differences that are potentially important to the evolution of the human lineage.

Are you a political statistician? Because you just made 96 percent sound like a really small number.

You seem to be walking in limbo in between evolution and creation, and not in the way you think you are. You're using the 96% figure to prove that humans didn't descend from apes and yet acknowledge some can. What if he was one of those that did evolve? Why would an independently created human have anywhere close to a 96% match? Also, why is it that we haven't found any glorious master race humans that only share, say, 50% gene matches to the rest of the species? You'd think an entire subset, majority or minority, that descended from a completely different line would be somewhat hard to miss. Also, you say you're directly descended form Adam and Eve, if these humans are otherwise indistinguishable how do you know you don't have a little monkey in you? Maybe your mom is an Adamite and your dad is an Apekin.

You should look into Hox genes, they account for a lot of the differences as well as a lot of the similarities. Have you noticed nearly all creatures are bilateral, laid out head to tail, and have a strikingly similar basic nervous system? That's because we've been recycling the same genes since we, as a species, were still worms, in fact even though it's missing a lot of genes (arms, legs, etc) there are a lot of matching patterns that one can easily interpret as saying "head goes here, make it symmetrical, throw the nervous system down the middle of the back" etc. If you really want to be weirded out go get a picture of a mouse embryo, a fly embryo, an elephant embryo, and a human embryo and put them next to each other. For added fun throw them up in the air 52 pickup style and see if you can tell which is which afterwords.

I'm not an evolutionary biologist so I can't speak for some things, but what I generally understand is all you really need is a basic blueprint for an arm and you can make a staggering amount of different arms just based on Hox genes, which basically just tell what to develop when and how much, if I understand it correctly you can also make similar things, like webbed feet instead of normal feet (or even an extra foot) without actually changing the actual foot gene (much, webbing probably needs a little), just the Hox gene that says what foot grows when, how much, how developed the muscles will be and so on. Your blueprint is surprisingly object oriented (to use a programming term), your genetic code doesn't contain two arms, it contains code for a specific arm and a gene in a completely different place that says when to create two of said arm. You can change both of your arms by changing the arm gene, or screw up one or grow and extra one by changing the Hox gene related to arm development.

Where was that lecture on evolution going? Well, pretty much that 96% doesn't account for much difference when you understand that most of the differences are basically akin to different instruction manuals with your Legos. We look a lot different than apes yet share the same basic model, and almost identical (if not completely) arm genes/hair genes etc. We essentially ARE the same creature, your Mom's womb just threw you together in a different order with different priorities on appendage development accounting for the lack of hair, smaller arms, etc. So either God was using an SDK or we have some shared lineage.

If you want more information on Hox genes see if you can catch National Geographic's How to Build a Better Being. It does a pretty good job of explaining Hox genes (aka "Toolkit genes") in layman terms, it's actually where I got a lot of this information for this post. If you don't accept the possibility that we can be descended from worms it may be a little difficult to swallow, but pay attention to the diagrams and pictures and you may see some fairly convincing similarities that may put it in perspective.

To those who understand Evo Devo: I'm not sure if I got all that right and I rambled a bit, so please correct me if I'm wrong on anything, I've always found it interesting but as I've never had any formal instruction on the matter I'm a little fuzzy on some things, so apologies for any inaccuracies.

Lobohan
03-30-2009, 03:19 PM
Blame for what? I know there are horrible things that happen in the world today, but that was the result of what man has done.

I suppose you believe God should take the blame for global warming because EVERYONE knows that God created the first automobile factory.If god did exist, which he doesn't, it would of course be his fault. He (supposedly) made the laws of physics and created the fuel that would dump carbon into the atmosphere. By definition all suffering is his fault because he (supposedly) created the capacity for suffering.

Never mind the fact that you're arguing about the attributes of an imaginary character. Asking if the easter bunny can lay eggs is valid as questioning the details of the Christian god.

Fear Itself
03-30-2009, 03:20 PM
Blame for what? I know there are horrible things that happen in the world today, but that was the result of what man has done. I'm not so pissed about the bad things that happen to good people; shit happens. What I find blameworthy is why do good things happen to bad people? Why does god frequently bless those who reject his commandments? I would think that those who reject god would find themselves in a world of hurt in this world, yet that is not the case. They frequently have the easiest life, and the most outward blessings. So what is up with that?

Marley23
03-30-2009, 03:20 PM
I suppose you believe God should take the blame for global warming because EVERYONE knows that God created the first automobile factory.
In the First Year of Our Ford.

It is God's job to prove himself to the person, in that respect it's not my job, nor Lacunas Quell's.
Lacunas Quell seems to have a different take on that.

SteveG1
03-30-2009, 03:20 PM
That bastard.....

He killed Kenny too????!!!!!!!1111oneoneone

Lacunae Quell
03-30-2009, 03:27 PM
I have mentioned on two occasions that personal insults are not part of this forum's practice.

This is an official Warning that you are out of line. Stop the insults or find some other board to post.

[ /Moderating ]

Again, I'm not challenging your authority, simply defending myself.

If the people I was referring to believe they are evolved from a type of ape, and simian means "of or pertaining to apes", and these people believe they are "of" ape, why should what I said be considered an insult?

Lacunae Quell
03-30-2009, 03:33 PM
I will gladly show you verse by verse why I believe that evolution and creation can co-exist, and explain to you my theory of how all of humankind can have both ape-like ancestors AND two first parents and why there is a missing-link

There is really no way to ignore that this peculiar taxonomy does assume that some humans are better than others, and by divine right no less.

It does not assume some humans are better than others. Adam and Eve were the first humans and from them came all other humans. I'm not saying that you can trace someone's lineage directly back to an ape and the lineage of someone else back to Adam and Eve.

Lacunae Quell
03-30-2009, 03:43 PM
Historical and credible documentation of intelligent extraterrestrial life.

So you have read this secret document?

I have not. I have read that people who do research on E.T.s have requested access to the Vatican secret archives to investigate into the subject and were denied.

Now you're probably thinking "Well that's an absurd request and no wonder they were denied", but really it's not an absurd request at all. If the Vatican knew there was nothing of interest on the subject contained in their secret archives, why would they deny anyone access to investigate? Just because the Vatican knows that there is nothing on the subject so they don't want someone to waste their time investigating? That seems too noble of an act of kindness and consideration even for someone claiming to be a Christian.

SteveG1
03-30-2009, 03:44 PM
Again, I'm not challenging your authority, simply defending myself. Shrug. I generally consider myself to be reasonable literate and moderately well read, but I have no idea just what you are claiming or defending. It's just a gigantic wall of unorganized text with no point to it.

This is a message board. We depend on the text, its content, and how it is written and presented. I am sorry, but your first post and several afterwards are simply impossible to read. Too often, the less a person has to say, the more words he needs to not say it.

Der Trihs
03-30-2009, 03:45 PM
If the Vatican knew there was nothing of interest on the subject contained in their secret archives, why would they deny anyone access to investigate? Because they're the Vatican, not a public library ? How often do they allow outsiders access at all ?

Marley23
03-30-2009, 03:47 PM
Now you're probably thinking "Well that's an absurd request and no wonder they were denied", but really it's not an absurd request at all. If the Vatican knew there was nothing of interest on the subject contained in their secret archives, why would they deny anyone access to investigate?
This kind of logic, for lack of a better term, is found in almost every conspiracy theory known to man. I doubt you'll care, but there it is.

Jragon
03-30-2009, 03:47 PM
I will gladly show you verse by verse why I believe that evolution and creation can co-exist, and explain to you my theory of how all of humankind can have both ape-like ancestors AND two first parents and why there is a missing-link



It does not assume some humans are better than others. Adam and Eve were the first humans and from them came all other humans. I'm not saying that you can trace someone's lineage directly back to an ape and the lineage of someone else back to Adam and Eve.

The main problem here is that you in one breath say there's a "missing link" and in another breath say it's entirely possible SOME humans evolved from apes. You can say both exist, but it seems more like the Middle Ground fallacy rather than an actual belief of yours. Why bother to bring the genetic disparity and the missing link business into it at all if there's a line that's descended from apes? Wouldn't that contradict your OWN claims that there are both those who evolved and those who are created? After all, if there's a missing link and shoddy genetics that's fairly good evidence (in your logic) that we didn't evolve from apes... yet we did... well some of us... but there's a missing link so we didn't... or did we? Kind of, maybe.

I have mentioned on two occasions that personal insults are not part of this forum's practice.

This is an official Warning that you are out of line. Stop the insults or find some other board to post.

[ /Moderating ]

Tomndebb, with respect, I think we're all getting a little sensitive here including the mods. It's obviously your ruling in the end, but as part of the "side" being "attacked" I didn't see much of an insult in that post, he's clearly established he believes there are some humans evolved from monkeys. And while what he wrote may be a tad ARROGANT (assuming the Bible is the perfect resource for instance) he was using simian in a mainly descriptive context. The worst he's said about the "simian" line is we're "stubborn" so far so I don't think that post was meant in an insulting fashion. I saw it more akin to telling a political adversary they're reading bias into an article, which as far as I know hasn't been outlawed here.

Again, your decision, just offering an alternative interpretation since I think we may be getting a little sensitive on both sides and reading ill intent where there is none (or little) and don't want any accidental blowups.

GIGObuster
03-30-2009, 03:53 PM
I will gladly show you verse by verse why I believe that evolution and creation can co-exist, and explain to you my theory of how all of humankind can have both ape-like ancestors AND two first parents and why there is a missing-link

It does not assume some humans are better than others. Adam and Eve were the first humans and from them came all other humans. I'm not saying that you can trace someone's lineage directly back to an ape and the lineage of someone else back to Adam and Eve.
Speaking of the sons of Noah, I have to ask for a cite that they had different skin color.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/neanderthals/mtdna.html
In 1987, three scientists announced in the journal Nature that they had found a common ancestor to us all, a woman who lived in Africa 200,000 years ago. She was given the name "Eve," which was great for capturing attention, though somewhat misleading, as the name at once brought to mind the biblical Eve, and with it the mistaken notion that the ancestor was the first of our species—the woman from whom all humankind descended.

The "Eve" in question was actually the most recent common ancestor through matrilineal descent of all humans living today. That is, all people alive today can trace some of their genetic heritage through their mothers back to this one woman. The scientists hypothesized this ancient woman's existence by looking within the cells of living people and analyzing short loops of genetic code known as mitochondrial DNA, or mtDNA for short. In recent years, scientists have used mtDNA to trace the evolution and migration of human species, including when the common ancestor to modern humans and Neanderthals lived—though there has been considerable debate over the validity and value of the findings.

Not surprisingly, there is currently a heated debate over the value of "mitochondrial Eve"—especially between history-hunting geneticists and some fossil-finding paleoanthropologists. According to these anthropologists, even if we could accurately gauge the age of the ancestor, that knowledge is meaningless because all she really is is the woman whose mtDNA did not die out due to random lineage extinctions. Furthermore, her status as the most recent common ancestor doesn't mean that she and her contemporaries were any different from their ancestors. (Remember, she and all of her contemporaries had their own mitochondrial Eve.)

Perhaps the most valuable finding regarding the "most recent common ancestor" is that she probably lived in Africa—a finding that supports the most popular theories about the worldwide spread of hominids.
Too far IMHO from the places that traditionally are pointed as the place were Adam and Eve moved about.

Speaking of Africa, many bible men put the date of the Flood of Noah's between 2500 BC and 2300 BC.

Right in the middle of the Fifth dynasty of Egypt, Egyptians perversely ignored the flood.

Captain Amazing
03-30-2009, 03:54 PM
Because they're the Vatican, not a public library ? How often do they allow outsiders access at all ?

According to their website, in the 2004-2005 academic year (the most recent year they give figures for), they allowed in "1142 researchers of 49 nationalities (and 1 stateless)".

As their website says "The Archives are open to qualified Researchers from institutions of Higher Education pursuing scientific researches and who have an adequate knowledge of archival research.", but I get the impression that that means more "academic at an accredited university" and less "guy trying to prove UFOs exist".

Locrian
03-30-2009, 03:59 PM
LQ, just to help you get familiar with our debates and how they are better presented, please use the "Search" function on this site. Do a search for "God", you'll get a lot of info.

Here are favorites: Click here (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=508588&highlight=reasons) and here (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=511549).

I'll get to your responses later.

Jragon
03-30-2009, 04:01 PM
According to their website, in the 2004-2005 academic year (the most recent year they give figures for), they allowed in "1142 researchers of 49 nationalities (and 1 stateless)".

As their website says "The Archives are open to qualified Researchers from institutions of Higher Education pursuing scientific researches and who have an adequate knowledge of archival research.", but I get the impression that that means more "academic at an accredited university" and less "guy trying to prove UFOs exist".

What are the protocols in there? Can they wander around so long as they have access or are they restricted to certain sections? Because if they have full access I really do think it's more "keeping out the rabble" than "deliberate calculated obfuscation of the truth." And it would be just as easy to get some letters misrepresenting your intentions and look for the UFO stuff instead of "the history of the Vatican" or whatever you said you were researching.

ETA: That's not to say if the protocols are restrictive they're hiding something, just idle musings.

LQ, just to help you get familiar with our debates and how they are better presented, please use the "Search" function on this site. Do a search for "God", you'll get a lot of info.

Here are favorites: Click here (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=508588&highlight=reasons) and here (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=511549).

I'll get to your responses later.


God is too short (3 letters), the board doesn't index it, Jesus, Religion, or Creationism would be better search terms.

GIGObuster
03-30-2009, 04:06 PM
What are the protocols in there? Can they wander around so long as they have access or are they restricted to certain sections? Because if they have full access I really do think it's more "keeping out the rabble" than "deliberate calculated obfuscation of the truth." And it would be just as easy to get some letters misrepresenting your intentions and look for the UFO stuff instead of "the history of the Vatican" or whatever you said you were researching.

I think that the "qualified Researchers from institutions of Higher Education" requirement is a good filter that would prevent a UFO researcher from getting in.

Locrian
03-30-2009, 04:06 PM
[QUOTE=

God is too short (3 letters), the board doesn't index it, Jesus, Religion, or Creationism would be better search terms.[/QUOTE]

WTF? Yep, you're right. Since it's 300 seconds, can we get a "you may search again" alarm to ring when it's time again? :rolleyes:

YamatoTwinkie
03-30-2009, 04:07 PM
If the Vatican knew there was nothing of interest on the subject contained in their secret archives, why would they deny anyone access to investigate?

Because if they let the ET nutters in, then they'd open the floodgates to the Kennedy assassination nutters, the hollow earth nutters, the moon landing hoax nutters, the "9/11 was an inside job" nutters, the New World Order nutters, the Illuminati nutters, and the mole people nutters. Does the Vatican really want:

A. thousands of these woo-woos pawing through their historical documents?
B. To have their name associated with these people?

Lacunae Quell
03-30-2009, 04:10 PM
I'm not so pissed about the bad things that happen to good people; shit happens. What I find blameworthy is why do good things happen to bad people? Why does god frequently bless those who reject his commandments? I would think that those who reject god would find themselves in a world of hurt in this world, yet that is not the case. They frequently have the easiest life, and the most outward blessings. So what is up with that?

Although God has everything to do with life, He rarely interferes with the natural order of things. The Bible says "There is none good but God". So if there is none good but God, and according to the Bible everyone commits sin (except Jesus), then we're all bad people. For the sake of argument, however, a good person and a bad person can both go to the same college, take the same course, get the same degree, and be equally successful. Or, a good person and a bad person can go to the same college, take the same courses, but the good person has a personal crisis and drops out of school while the bad person goes on to earn a degree, and ten years later the bad person has become more successful then the good person (or vice versa). The point being a lot of "bad" people have a wonderful life because they worked for it.

I've heard that "Earth is the closest an anti-Christ will get to Heaven and the closest a Christan will get to Hell". With that said, it would only seem to make sense that so many "bad" people have a great life. God pities them because He knows they will never choose Him or His plan of salvation, so He allows them to live a "good" life in this life because they chose Hell. God grants men the desires of their heart. God is a loving Father, and like any dad He wants to give His children what they truly deeply want. In some cases, God being a strict and caring Father, will say "No" because He has bigger and better plans for the individual. In some cases, God being the proud Father of His child, will grant special blessing to an individual. In some cases, God being the compassionate and understanding Father, will give special blessing to an individual out of pity. This is the same for "good" and "bad" people, because we're all God's creation, and whether someone believes or not God still loves His creation and wants to show them that love.

Voyager
03-30-2009, 04:11 PM
Blame for what? I know there are horrible things that happen in the world today, but that was the result of what man has done.

Including the tsunami?

I suppose you believe God should take the blame for global warming because EVERYONE knows that God created the first automobile factory.

That is correct. No God, so he can't be blamed. The tsunami came from purely natural forces of course. But if you do believe in God, you might wonder why he saw fit to kill that many people.

Jragon
03-30-2009, 04:12 PM
I think that the "qualified Researchers from institutions of Higher Education" requirement is a good filter that would prevent a UFO researcher from getting in.

Nah, some professors believe some nutty, nutty things (or at the very least being, say, an astrophysicist doesn't automatically make you immune to conspiracy groupthink). I'm sure there's a qualified theological historian out there SOMEWHERE that's both qualified for entry and into UFOs. But in general, I agree.

Fear Itself
03-30-2009, 04:18 PM
I have not. I have read that people who do research on E.T.s have requested access to the Vatican secret archives to investigate into the subject and were denied.

Now you're probably thinking "Well that's an absurd request and no wonder they were denied", but really it's not an absurd request at all. Your crystal ball is a little fuzzy there, Lacunas. I am thinking no such thing. But I am thinking you (nor any UFO researchers) have no idea what is in the Vatican archives, so you are just filling in the blanks from your own over-stimulated imagination, much the way your religion has perpetuated itself all these years. You rush to fill any gaps in human knowledge with fanciful fiction that has no foundation other than, "god told me so".

If the Vatican knew there was nothing of interest on the subject contained in their secret archives, why would they deny anyone access to investigate? Because Christian dogma is a house of cards, and they don't want it exposed for what it is?

Lacunae Quell
03-30-2009, 04:19 PM
In the First Year of Our Ford.

lol. good one.

Originally Posted by kanicbird
It is God's job to prove himself to the person, in that respect it's not my job, nor Lacunas Quell's.
[QUOTE=Marley23;10987729]Lacunas Quell seems to have a different take on that.

Not so much. I believe it is the responsibility of an individual to believe in God through faith, and then God will prove Himself to the person.

If someone has true faith, they don't need God to reveal Himself to them, they believe no matter what. God may test that person's faith, and allow bad things to happen to that person, but when the individual has pure faith in God, He will show Himself to that person. Read the book of Job. The entire book is about this subject. Book of Job (http://www.drbo.org/book/20.htm)

Der Trihs
03-30-2009, 04:21 PM
There's also another point to be made about the archives. If there's anything the Vatican wants kept secret - and I'm sure there is - they could hide it from anyone searching the archives by the simple expedient of not putting it in the archives. So, as far as Lacunas Quell's idea that if they won't let some UFO guy rummage through their stuff, they must be hiding something - if they ARE hiding something like that it's more likely in a locked room marked JANITOR somewhere than in the archives. They are much more likely afraid that he'll make them look bad or damage something.

Fear Itself
03-30-2009, 04:21 PM
If someone has true faith, they don't need God to reveal Himself to them, they believe no matter what. God may test that person's faith, and allow bad things to happen to that person, but when the individual has pure faith in God, He will show Himself to that person. Read the book of Job. The entire book is about this subject. Book of Job (http://www.drbo.org/book/20.htm)So why does god cause good things to happen to bad people?

Der Trihs
03-30-2009, 04:23 PM
If someone has true faith, they don't need God to reveal Himself to them, they believe no matter what. In other words, faith is a pretty word for insanity or foolishness. Faith isn't admirable; it's a defect, a serious one. Faith is the crippling of the mind.

Captain Amazing
03-30-2009, 04:24 PM
What are the protocols in there? Can they wander around so long as they have access or are they restricted to certain sections?

It's not really like that. Documents are sealed (generally) for 75 years, and so assuming the document isn't sealed, the researcher requests the document he or she wants and it's brought to them.

Marley23
03-30-2009, 04:27 PM
lol. good one.
Aldous Huxley's, note mine.
I believe it is the responsibility of an individual to believe in God through faith, and then God will prove Himself to the person.
I think I described this earlier. It's ass-backwards.
God may test that person's faith, and allow bad things to happen to that person, but when the individual has pure faith in God, He will show Himself to that person. Read the book of Job. The entire book is about this subject. Book of Job (http://www.drbo.org/book/20.htm)
I know the story of Job, thanks. God makes a bet with Satan and decides to test a guy's faith by ruining his life and murdering his family. Wonderful, life affirming story about what a great thing it is to have faith in a monster who cares more about proving a point to his "adversary" than the lives of the creations he puportedly loves. I was going to compare this god to Ike Turner and Job to Tina, but that's actually unfair to Ike.

SteveG1
03-30-2009, 04:41 PM
There's also another point to be made about the archives.




If there's anything the Vatican wants kept secret - and I'm sure there is - they could hide it from anyone searching the archives by the simple expedient of not putting it in the archives. So, as far as Lacunas Quell's idea that if they won't let some UFO guy rummage through their stuff, they must be hiding something - if they ARE hiding something like that it's more likely in a locked room marked JANITOR somewhere than in the archives.




They are much more likely afraid that he'll make them look bad or damage something.


See, this is the thing that bothers me about movies where the main theme is about the Evil Scary Guys Who Hide Stuff. If something is really serious, really hot stuff, really will cause an upheaval, then why archive it or hide it? JUST DESTROY IT. I know, that would be too simple and obvious.

Jragon
03-30-2009, 04:42 PM
See, this is the thing that bothers me about movies where the main theme is about the Evil Scary Guys Who Hide Stuff. If something is really serious, really hot stuff, really will cause an upheaval, then why archive it or hide it? JUST DESTROY IT. I know, that would be too simple and obvious.

Maybe they're just packrats? "But I might NEED it sometime!"

Lacunae Quell
03-30-2009, 04:53 PM
The main problem here is that you in one breath say there's a "missing link" and in another breath say it's entirely possible SOME humans evolved from apes. You can say both exist, but it seems more like the Middle Ground fallacy rather than an actual belief of yours. Why bother to bring the genetic disparity and the missing link business into it at all if there's a line that's descended from apes? Wouldn't that contradict your OWN claims that there are both those who evolved and those who are created? After all, if there's a missing link and shoddy genetics that's fairly good evidence (in your logic) that we didn't evolve from apes... yet we did... well some of us... but there's a missing link so we didn't... or did we? Kind of, maybe.

Please allow me to clear this up for you.

Before the creation of man, human spirits were inhabiting the bodies of a highly developed form of ape. These spirits didn't inhabit the body, per say, but the spirits stayed close to their chosen individual. Have you seen or read The Golden Compass. It was a relationship similar to that but not on a personal level. This is why I believe some humans alive today could have evolved from a type of ape. I believe in reincarnation, even though it doesn't matter if you are reincarnated because the life you are living is this one. Who cares if you were Cleopatra in another life? In this life you're just Bob. Deal with it. Be happy with your can of pork and beans and make the best with what you have. Life is the gift, not your wealth or possessions. So because I believe in reincarnation I believe that some who are alive this very day were once the guiding force of a type of ape.

There is a missing link because humans did not evolve directly from an ape ancestor. God created a body for the human spirits and created that body from the dust of the Earth. The human spirits had their own bodies to control, and from Adam and Eve all humankind has been brought forth.

SteveG1
03-30-2009, 04:53 PM
Maybe they're just packrats? "But I might NEED it sometime!"
Vatican Priest 1: Hey take a loot at this!
Vatican Priest 2: Holy ^#^%^& that's some scary stuff.
Vatican Priest 1: Yeah, this could cause the end of civilization, a new Dark Ages, and toss us all out of work.
Vatican Priest 2: I know, but AIN'T IT COOL! :D

The Hamster King
03-30-2009, 04:56 PM
Before the creation of man, human spirits were inhabiting the bodies of a highly developed form of ape. These spirits didn't inhabit the body, per say, but the spirits stayed close to their chosen individual.How far back did this occur? Before these ape-like creatures existed, did human souls hang out with tree shrews? Lizards? Fish?

ianzin
03-30-2009, 04:59 PM
God created a body for the human spirits and created that body from the dust of the Earth. The human spirits had their own bodies to control, and from Adam and Eve all humankind has been brought forth. These assertions are figments of your imagination.

wsbenge
03-30-2009, 05:03 PM
Easy answer. The Sanhedrin killed Jesus.

The Jewish government failed the test, and couldn't recognize divinity.

The government didn't last too long, after that.

Der Trihs
03-30-2009, 05:07 PM
Easy answer. The Sanhedrin killed Jesus.No, the Romans did. Thus the crucifixion - a ROMAN punishment.

The Jewish government failed the test, and couldn't recognize divinity.Since there's no such thing as divinity, and he didn't match the prophecies anyway, that's understandable.

The government didn't last too long, after that.Considering that Jesus got himself crucified, there's no reason to think that allying with him would have made the government last longer.

DocCathode
03-30-2009, 05:22 PM
Kanicbird

Earth + Wind + Fire= a band.

And it's spelled nephilim and pronounced nuh-FEEL-eem. I hear a lot of NEFF-uh-lum but that's just wrong.

The word appears once in all of the OT. "The nephilim were in the earth in those days". I have no idea how often, if at all it appears in the NT. OTTOMH it doesn't appear once in any canon books but only in apocrypha such as the Book Of Enoch.

Lacunae Quell
03-30-2009, 05:25 PM
Because if they let the ET nutters in, then they'd open the floodgates to the Kennedy assassination nutters, the hollow earth nutters, the moon landing hoax nutters, the "9/11 was an inside job" nutters, the New World Order nutters, the Illuminati nutters, and the mole people nutters. Does the Vatican really want:

A. thousands of these woo-woos pawing through their historical documents?
B. To have their name associated with these people?

Hey, that offends me! We have landed on the moon!

Just because I believe in conspiracies doesn't mean I believe all conspiracies. I'm just going to mention the E.T. one because the others are too dangerous to talk about. God is the creator of ALL things... even Extraterrestrial life. However, at this current time in our mental and spiritual evolution, it's better that we don't worry about if they exist or not.

It's certainly not a question of possibility, probability, fact or truth if conspiracies exist. We all know the truth. What we don't know are the lies. Conspirators tell lies that distort the truth, not hide it... that way they can make sure the truth is never known. It doesn't really matter what anyone believes about a conspiracy, because it's all a lie and it's all the truth. Life goes on... let's just try to stay out of other people's business when they don't want us to know about it.

Diogenes the Cynic
03-30-2009, 05:25 PM
Actually, the factual, historical answer is that crucifixion was a Roman method of execution, illegal under Jewish law (and for the sanhedrin to sanction), and the Romans only did it to slaves and to people convicted of crimes against the state. In Judea, specifically, it was used by the Romans only against local insurgents (who were basically perceived as terrorists). The Romans did not crucify people for religious reasons, and didn't give a rat's ass what the Sanhedrin wanted. The high priests at that time danced to Pilate's tune, he didn't dance to theirs.

Moreover, the trial of Jesus, as described by Mark, then copied from Mark by Matthew and Luke, is riddled with so many factual and procedural inaccuracies (including a conviction for something that was not illegal under Jewish law), that it can't be historical. Jesus' trial before the Sanhedrin is a Markan, apologetic fiction designed to shift blame away from the Romans and onto Jewish authority.

Bottom line -- if Jesus was crucified, it was because the Romans wanted him crucified, not the Temple priets, and if the Romans wanted him crucified, it was because the saw him as a political threat or public menace, not for any religious reasons.

The most likely reason Jesus was crucified was for causing a disturbance at the Temple during Passover. This was a very tense time of year for the Romans, who feared riots in the overcrowded city, and who dealt summarily and ruthlessly with anyone who looked like they might be stirring up shit. That's not to necessarily say the Temple authorities didn't help to facilitate his arrest, they may well have done so. They would have been doing it for the most pragmatic of reasons, though. They didn't want riots either, and somebody staging a violent protest in the Temple courtyards was unsettling to everybody. There was nothing religious about it. They would have seen it as getting rid of a potentially dangerous nutcase, not as anything with any theological significance.

DocCathode
03-30-2009, 05:30 PM
Just because I believe in conspiracies doesn't mean I believe all conspiracies. I'm just going to mention the E.T. one because the others are too dangerous to talk about.

How and why are they too dangerous to talk about?

Der Trihs
03-30-2009, 05:33 PM
Just because I believe in conspiracies doesn't mean I believe all conspiracies. I'm just going to mention the E.T. one because the others are too dangerous to talk about. Ah, but unlike the rest of us, superior being that you are, YOU know these deep dark secrets that will get you killed if you speak of them. By ninjas, probably. Or maybe alien shapechangers.

You DO know that X Files wasn't a documentary series ?

Captain Amazing
03-30-2009, 05:39 PM
Actually, the factual, historical answer is that crucifixion was a Roman method of execution, illegal under Jewish law (and for the sanhedrin to sanction), and the Romans only did it to slaves and to people convicted of crimes against the state.

I am nitpicking here a little bit, but both the Hasmoneans and Herodians also crucified....not that either group was scrupulous about their obedience to Jewish law.

Lacunae Quell
03-30-2009, 05:49 PM
Including the tsunami?


That is correct. No God, so he can't be blamed. The tsunami came from purely natural forces of course. But if you do believe in God, you might wonder why he saw fit to kill that many people.

God is.

God didn't kill anyone. God doesn't interfere with nature. IT'S NATURE! It's natural. If God interfered with nature it wouldn't be natural. The tsunami was cause by an earthquake which was caused by the natural shifting of tectonic plates. How is that God's fault? The Earth is like a billion year old house. It's going to creak a little.

"For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs...".--Romans 8:22

All throughout history it was normal for people to hold their god responsible for a natural destruction. They never blamed their god. They believed it was a punishment for something they did wrong.