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lsnovick
04-07-2009, 02:52 PM
My son has Crohns Disease at 5 years old. The doctor wants to put him on some strong medicine, but I just don't want to do it! I went to a Alternative Medicine clinic who seemed like a quack. He was working on positive and negative energy by pressing on my hand and my son's head. He put him on probiotics and some anti-virus medicine (all natural.) Anyone get this to work?

DrFidelius
04-07-2009, 03:12 PM
What kind of "strong medicine" does your real doctor want to prescribe, and why are you resistant to it?

What is it about the "doctor" you feel to be a quack that makes you think his treatment would be any better?

(Added- I am not aware of any "all-natural" anti-virus medicines. Did he give you a name?)

lsnovick
04-07-2009, 03:21 PM
Imuran is the one they want to put him on right now. The other choice was Remicade. I just can't do either of those to him. Imuran has side effects on his liver. None of these drugs have been proven on a 5 year old child. Everything the alternative medicine gave him is from a plant and has no side effects. How can I argue with that? I have taken dairy and gluten out of his life already. I am just willing to try anything natural vs. harsh medicine for a little body.

Really Not All That Bright
04-07-2009, 03:28 PM
Everything the alternative medicine gave him is from a plant and has no side effects. How can I argue with that?
Well, possibly because it won't work?

Find out what the alternative medicine guy wants to do and compare it with the results here: http://www.crohns.net/Miva/education/articles/Probiotics_in_the_Treatment_of_Crohns_Disease.shtml

Marley23
04-07-2009, 03:31 PM
Everything the alternative medicine gave him is from a plant and has no side effects. How can I argue with that?
There's no such thing as "no side effects." (For that matter I don't know what "energy" is.) A drug may have mild side effects, but if it has no potential side effects, that means it doesn't do anything. And plant vs. drug is irrelevant - a chemical is a chemical regardless of where it comes from. I think you're being fed a line of B.S. by a quack, as you suspect, because I hope a doctor would not try that kind of garbage. Crohn's is an intestinal disorder, and to be polite, it's unlikely that pressing on a child's head is going to fix any problems with his gastrointestinal tract.

scr4
04-07-2009, 03:31 PM
Everything the alternative medicine gave him is from a plant and has no side effects.
Everything has side effects, and many plants are poisonous. If the "medicine" was not labeled with a list of possible side effects, that's because it is not an FDA-approved drug.

elfkin477
04-07-2009, 03:38 PM
Everything the alternative medicine gave him is from a plant and has no side effects. How can I argue with that? You could argue with that by knowing that a lot of non-alternative medicines are also made from plants? There are poisons made from plants (foxglove, nightshade etc), so why would you assume things made from plants would necessarily have no ill effects? :confused:

Ferret Herder
04-07-2009, 03:41 PM
Plenty of medications are derived from plants, too. A strong chemotherapy medication, tamoxifen, is from a plant. So are aspirin, digoxin, penicillin (well, a mold), and others. They all have potentially serious side effects, especially if not taken as directed, but a big bonus is that they've undergone a lot of FDA-regulated testing. The FDA isn't perfect, but it's better than basically nothing, which is the level of regulation of many herbal preparations. Some can be highly dangerous (http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/food/diet-nutrition/dangerous-supplements/dangerous-supplements-504/12-supplements-to-avoid/index.htm) and cause harm including organ failure and even death.

Please don't underestimate Crohn's disease. A coworker's husband has it, and requires surgery to remove a small portion of his bowel. If you're concerned, consider taking your son for a second opinion to another medical doctor, instead of settling on something that just sounds comforting to you but may not help the discomfort, pain, or health of your child.

Qadgop the Mercotan
04-07-2009, 03:52 PM
As noted by Ferret Herder and others, Crohn's disease is a serious disorder that requires serious attention and serious medication. Flare-ups can have devastating consequences if not managed properly.

I have a few patients with Crohn's right now, two on imuran and one on remicade. They all report much better disease control, fewer symptoms, and less pain on these regimens. None has required surgery in the last few years on these regimens either.

I too have a child with a chronic illness which shortens lifespans. And thanks to potent modern medicines, her chances of living longer are increased, due to the use of these meds, despite their risks and side-effects. The benefits outweigh the risks for her.

If competent specialists in pediatric gastro-enterology tell you that the benefits of such meds as imuran and remicade outweigh the risks for your child, you should listen with all due attention, and be careful about finding someone who tells you what you want to hear.

QtM, MD and parent.

BrandonR
04-07-2009, 04:50 PM
Imuran is the one they want to put him on right now. The other choice was Remicade. I just can't do either of those to him. Imuran has side effects on his liver. None of these drugs have been proven on a 5 year old child. Everything the alternative medicine gave him is from a plant and has no side effects. How can I argue with that? I have taken dairy and gluten out of his life already. I am just willing to try anything natural vs. harsh medicine for a little body.

Have you considered how likely it is the plant has "no side effects" because it's not doing anything? In all actuality, it could have a worse side effect in delaying real medical treatment. And you're right to think your alternative healer is a quack. Anyone pushing on someone talking and positive and negative energy has no business practicing medicine (or in this case, pretending to). I understand the desire to be natural but all-natural is rarely the answer when it comes to serious illnesses. Good luck and I hope you speak again with real medical professionals and stay away from the quacks.

crazyjoe
04-07-2009, 04:51 PM
I suffer from Ulcerative Colitis, which is a disease with a lot of similarities to Crohn's, and a lot of the treatments that work for one will work for the other. I have done Imuran, and I have done Remicaid, and right now I am currently on both along with finshing off a course of prednisone because my stupid body just seems to love to go all ape shit and attack itself.

From what I have learned, Imuran has potential side effects on the liver, but if monitored properly (regular blood tests) the risks are minimal. Who knows what the ever loving hell this "naturopath" is going to give your son. Who knows if he even knows how to monitor for side effects on the liver?

Given the choice I would prefer Remicaid or another biologic, Humira, to Imuran, which has a broader suppressive effect on your immune system, but really this is something up to your doctor, as those biologics ave a much shorter history in the market.

Please, consider the words of QtM and understand that the longer the disease is out of control, the more damage it does. For me, according to the docs, if it gets too bad they can always just remove my colon (beleive me, it's not something I look forward to) and that will "cure" the disease. That option isn't available for a Crohn's sufferer, so the more it spreads the worse it is going to be.

Really Not All That Bright
04-07-2009, 04:53 PM
Internal bleeding is a common complication of Crohn's disease, and this can be dangerous if left untreated. An herbal way to treat bleeding however, is the use of Cayenne. Simple cayenne pepper such as what you use to flavor meals at the dinner table will stop external and internal bleeding. Cayenne is an herb also known as Capsicum, and it can be purchased in capsule form at almost any drug, herb, or natural health store.
I'm not touching the rest of your post- if it works for you, fine.

However, cayenne (capsicum frutens) is a vasodilator. It doesn't stop bleeding, it increases it.

crazyjoe
04-07-2009, 05:01 PM
jakesteele has provided you with a post full of misinformation which I strongly encourage you to discount heavily.

A common theme for people embracing natural remedies is that current drugs treat only the symptoms, and do not cure the problem. So what is jakesteele's post full of? Natural remedies which treat symptoms -- and you have to keep taking them, or the symptoms come back. If they cured the problem, you could stop taking them once you were all healed up, right? Willow is the unrefined form of both 4-ASA drugs like aspirin, and 5-ASA drugs like Asacol, Colazol, Lialda, Apriso, and other generic meslamines which are used to treat UC and other inflammatory bowel diseases. Aloe Vera has natural anesthetic and anti-inflammatory effects, but as anyone with a sunburn can tell you, it doesn't cure sunburn, that is only something your body does with time. AV gel simply provides some releif from the suffering.

DrFidelius
04-07-2009, 06:34 PM
One of the biggest lessons to learn is to not take medical advice from a random group of strangers on the Internet.

Qadgop the Mercotan
04-07-2009, 06:34 PM
jakesteele, speaking as a physician, your prescribed treatment for Crohn's and its complications is a recipe for death. Cayenne for hemorrhage? Please. Laxatives for intestinal obstruction? That's a recipe for a surgical emergency. Garlic for infectious peritonitis? Unconscienable.

Your advice in this thread is not only wrong, but dangerous.

aruvqan
04-07-2009, 07:42 PM
Imuran is the one they want to put him on right now. The other choice was Remicade. I just can't do either of those to him. Imuran has side effects on his liver. None of these drugs have been proven on a 5 year old child. Everything the alternative medicine gave him is from a plant and has no side effects. How can I argue with that? I have taken dairy and gluten out of his life already. I am just willing to try anything natural vs. harsh medicine for a little body.

From a plant. May I quote Socrates ... I drank *what*?

Hemlock is from a plant, and Id rather not consume it, thanks. Foxglove is a very pretty plant, and will kill you quite nicely. datura is a plant, and can cause serious hallucinations and death. Some mushrooms, though fungus rather than chlorophyll bearing plant are incredibly toxic .....

Yet - digitalis is an extract of foxglove, and will keep a cardiac patient alive. Scopalamine is a valuable medication that comes from datura, so how about giving modern medication a chance? The main issue with 'natural' meds is in the extraction and dosing. Often the manufacture is substandard and the quality and strength of the medication can vary wildly. Just because it is synthesized does not mean it is dangerous.

As to teh side effects issue,

Datura[scopalamine, atropine]All Datura plants contain tropane alkaloids such as scopolamine, hyoscyamine, and atropine, primarily in their seeds and flowers. Because of the presence of these substances, Datura has been used for centuries in some cultures as a poison and hallucinogen.[3][2] There can easily be a 5:1 variation in toxins from plant to plant, and a given plant's toxicity depends on its age, where it is growing, and local weather conditions. These wide variations make Datura exceptionally hazardous to use as a drug. In traditional cultures, users needed to have a great deal of experience and detailed plant knowledge so that no harm resulted from using it.[2] Such knowledge is not available in modern cultures, so many unfortunate incidents result from ingesting Datura. In the 1990s and 2000s, the United States media contained stories of adolescents and young adults dying or becoming seriously ill from intentionally ingesting Datura.[4] [5] There are also several reports in the medical literature of deaths from Datura stramonium and Datura ferox intoxication. [6][7][8] Children are especially vulnerable to atropine poisoning and they more likely to have a fatal prognosis.[9][10] In some parts of Europe and India, Datura has been a popular poison for suicide and murder. From 1950-1965, the State Chemical Laboratories in Agra investigated 2,778 deaths that were caused by ingesting Datura.[2]

Foxglove [digitalis] The entire plant is toxic (including the roots and seeds), although the leaves of the upper stem are particularly potent, with just a nibble being enough to potentially cause death. Early symptoms of ingestion include nausea, vomiting, anorexia, diarrhea, abdominal pain, wild hallucinations, delirium, and severe headache. Depending on the severity of the toxicosis the victim may later suffer irregular and slow pulse, tremors, various cerebral disturbances, especially of a visual nature (unusual colour visions with objects appearing yellowish to green, and blue halos around lights), convulsions, and deadly disturbances of the heart. For a case description, see the paper by Lacassie.[4]

Exapno Mapcase
04-07-2009, 08:01 PM
Isnovick, half of your instincts are correct. Anyone who babbles on about "energy" in the context of medicine is a quack. No qualifiers. Run, do not walk, from anything that has to do with this person. And whatever he gave you is not all-natural. Did you walk into his back yard and graze it off a stalk? The only thing that "all-natural" means in this context is "no quality control." Anything of any potency could be in that "medicine" and neither he nor you would ever know it. (Check the studies on "all-natural medicines" to see how much they vary from the supposed contents.) All-natural is the worst possible descriptor for a medicine. I want my medicine as artificial - and as pure and controlled and known - as humanly imaginable.

Alternative medicines may work as placebos for conditions that aren't very serious or that go away naturally. They are totally ineffective against serious body illnesses like the one your son has.

Please, at the very least check out another real doctor to see if the advice concurs with the first real doctor.

Broomstick
04-07-2009, 08:56 PM
My son has Crohns Disease at 5 years old.
My condolences - it can be very frightening to find out your child has a serious medical condition.

The doctor wants to put him on some strong medicine, but I just don't want to do it!
Well, I can certainly understand that. You probably want everything to be all better with a healthy child who doesn't need any medical care whatsoever. Your reaction is understandable.

However, the reality is your child has been diagnosed with a serious, potentially very serious, medical condition. The good news is that there is treatment available and with proper care your son could grow up healthy and strong and live a long, wonderful life. The bad news is that this is going to take a little more work for him than for someone who doesn't have Crohn's Disease.

I went to a Alternative Medicine clinic who seemed like a quack. He was working on positive and negative energy by pressing on my hand and my son's head. He put him on probiotics and some anti-virus medicine (all natural.) Anyone get this to work?
Your instincts are correct - the alternative medicine guy is a quack. Do not go back to him.

Imuran is the one they want to put him on right now. The other choice was Remicade.
Yes, those are very serious medications, and not to be taken on a whim. On the other hand, they are also very commonly used to treat Crohn's Disease.

I just can't do either of those to him.
I believe those are your emotions talking. Naturally, as a parent you will be emotional about your son. You want to protect him from harm, either disease or medication side effects.

However, do consider that NOT using strong drugs in this situation may be worse than risky side effects. Crohn's can be extremely serious, too. Some of the "side effects" of untreated Crohn's can be pretty nasty, too.

Imuran has side effects on his liver.
It MIGHT have side effects on the liver - it doesn't always have those side effects. Monitoring of liver function is customary when Imuran is used, and precisely because there is a risk. I emphasize again, though, that liver problems are NOT a certainty on Imuran.

None of these drugs have been proven on a 5 year old child.
That's because testing drugs on children is generally seen as unethical. However, other children have taken Imuran for serious problems and thus there IS some practical experience out there, particularly among doctors treating Crohn's Disease.

Everything the alternative medicine gave him is from a plant and has no side effects. How can I argue with that?
It's bullshit. EVERYTHING has side effects in great enough quantities. If it's strong enough to help you it's strong enough to hurt you if misused. He's telling you what you WANT to hear, not what you NEED to hear.

I have taken dairy and gluten out of his life already. I am just willing to try anything natural vs. harsh medicine for a little body.
Did you remove dairy and gluten because of doctor's orders, or symptoms, or because Mr. Alternative said to do this? One of the complications of Crohn's is malnutrition which, needless to say, can be extremely serious for a child. I would hesitate to eliminate foods from his diet unless told to by a doctor or unless doing so is customary in treating Crohn's.

So you think the medicine for Crohn's is harsh? Please educate yourself about the disease - perhaps one of our MD's could steer you towards a reputable source. The consequences of NOT treating Crohn' are also very harsh. I know it's difficult to consider strong medicines for your child, but in this case it may be necessary in order to maintain his long term health. I urge you to consult with a reputable medical doctor with expertise in treating Crohn's, even better if you can find one with experience in treating children. This disease is manageable, but managing may, indeed, require potent pharmaceuticals.

Really Not All That Bright
04-07-2009, 09:35 PM
Did you remove dairy and gluten because of doctor's orders, or symptoms, or because Mr. Alternative said to do this? One of the complications of Crohn's is malnutrition which, needless to say, can be extremely serious for a child. I would hesitate to eliminate foods from his diet unless told to by a doctor or unless doing so is customary in treating Crohn's.

This is an excellent point. Successfully treating his Crohn's won't do him much good if you give him Rickett's in the process.

samclem
04-07-2009, 09:46 PM
jakesteele, speaking as a physician, your prescribed treatment for Crohn's and its complications is a recipe for death. Cayenne for hemorrhage? Please. Laxatives for intestinal obstruction? That's a recipe for a surgical emergency. Garlic for infectious peritonitis? Unconscienable.

Your advice in this thread is not only wrong, but dangerous.

Moderator Note.

The post above of jakesteele has been moved to a place on the server where it's unaccessable to users. It was not deleted, but it's so full of misinformation and potentially dangerous, that a few of us mods decided that it's better off not in the thread. This is a very unusual circumstance, not done lightly. I"m sorry if following the thread is made more difficult.

samclem Moderator, General Questions

Really Not All That Bright
04-07-2009, 10:08 PM
Er... why not just delete it then?

samclem
04-07-2009, 10:28 PM
Er... why not just delete it then?
The policy of the owner's of the Board for the last 5+ years has been to move posts rather than delete them.

Helen's Eidolon
04-07-2009, 10:48 PM
I was all set to come in here and say that live Acidophilus bacteria has been proven to reduce the frequency and severity of yeast infections.

But Crohn's? If I was diagnosed with it, I'd be putting the yogurt back on the shelf and heading to the real doctors immediately.

DrDeth
04-07-2009, 10:51 PM
Probiotics work for certain things. They help build a healthy immune system, especially in your "gut" and they help with a number of digestive disorders. They are very helpful after taking a strong course of antibiotics. I never heard of them being used for Crohns Disease, so I tried some research on-line.

http://gut.bmj.com/cgi/content/abstract/51/3/405
"Ineffectiveness of probiotics in preventing recurrence after curative resection for Crohn's disease: a randomised controlled trial with Lactobacillus GG

C Prantera, M L Scribano, G Falasco, A Andreoli and C Luzi

Division of Gastroenterology, Azienda Ospedaliera S Camillo-Forlanini, Rome, Italy

ABSTRACT

Background and aims: Experimental studies have shown that luminal bacteria may be involved in Crohn's disease. Probiotics are a possible alternative to antibiotics. The aim of this randomised placebo controlled study was to determine if Lactobacillus GG, given by mouth for one year, could prevent Crohn's recurrent lesions after surgery or to reduce their severity.

.....

Conclusions: Lactobacillus GG seems neither to prevent endoscopic recurrence at one year nor reduce the severity of recurrent lesions."

http://www.jpgn.org/pt/re/jpgn/abstract.00005176-200010000-00024.htm;jsessionid=JcPZRZCtskDwTjWgpQ1rNp5m7c9pNJmV1GnS1WG3RmQPgt2Gk6qg!285259918!181195628!8091!-1

"Background: Lactobacillus GG is a safe probiotic bacterium known to transiently colonize the human intestine. It has been found to be useful in treatment of several gastrointestinal conditions characterized by increased gut permeability. In the current study, the efficacy of Lactobacillus GG was investigated in children with Crohn's disease.

...

Results: There was a significant improvement in clinical activity 1 week after starting Lactobacillus GG, which was sustained throughout the study period. Median pediatric Crohn's disease activity index scores at 4 weeks were 73% lower than baseline. Intestinal permeability improved in an almost parallel fashion.

Conclusions: Findings in this pilot study show that Lactobacillus GG may improve gut barrier function and clinical status in children with mildly to moderately active, stable Crohn's disease. Randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trials are warranted for a final assessment of the efficacy of Lactobacillus GG in Crohn's disease."

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/114026690/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0
Background: Seventy percent of Crohn's disease (CD) patients exhibit anastomotic recurrence within 1 year after ileo-caecal surgery. Recent clinical trials suggest the beneficial use of probiotics in the control of intestinal inflammation in pouchitis and ulcerative colitis. This study is a multicenter clinical trial evaluating the efficacy of an oral administration of the probiotic LA1 on early postoperative endoscopic recurrence of CD.
....
Conclusion: Oral administration of the probiotic LA1 in patients with CD failed to prevent early endoscopic recurrence at 12 weeks after ileo-caecal resection.
(Inflamm Bowel Dis 2007)"

Based on these it would seem that Probiotics may possibly be a small part of an overall treatment plan. I'd discuss this with the REAL Doctor, and see what he says. My WAG is that he'd agree that they could be a possible adjunct , but not a treatment in of itself.

Markxxx
04-07-2009, 11:13 PM
There are lots of doctors who are willing to try alternative meds along with standard meds.

You should be getting second, third and forth opinons. Don't forget Osteopathic Physicans as well.

I have found the best bets if your skiddish are research hospitals and/or teaching hospitals.

Search online for other parents with the same condition and ask them what they've been through. Unfortunately with meds sometimes you don't get a perfect answer, all you get is the least problematic.

jakesteele
04-08-2009, 12:37 AM
I'm not touching the rest of your post- if it works for you, fine.

However, cayenne (capsicum frutens) is a vasodilator. It doesn't stop bleeding, it increases it.

At first blush it seems contradictory but, ironically, it is used for certain types of ulcers, peptic, I believe. What I have doe is give the guy some other people's experiences with the same condition.

Just to clarify, my experience is that it is always best to start off as least invasively as possible but ultimately you've got to do what you've got to do. If the situation calls for the big guns immediately, then do it. Always be under a doctors care and run everything by him first. There are some herbs that can have an adverse effect if taken with regular meds, such as St. John's Wort with Welbutrin...don't do it.

I got into herbs and nutrition years ago and have had some great results from a number of alternative treatments in lieu conventional treatments. Just remember, doctors are your friends, they're not you Gods.

jakesteele
04-08-2009, 12:45 AM
jakesteele has provided you with a post full of misinformation which I strongly encourage you to discount heavily.

A common theme for people embracing natural remedies is that current drugs treat only the symptoms, and do not cure the problem. So what is jakesteele's post full of? Natural remedies which treat symptoms -- and you have to keep taking them, or the symptoms come back. If they cured the problem, you could stop taking them once you were all healed up, right? Willow is the unrefined form of both 4-ASA drugs like aspirin, and 5-ASA drugs like Asacol, Colazol, Lialda, Apriso, and other generic meslamines which are used to treat UC and other inflammatory bowel diseases. Aloe Vera has natural anesthetic and anti-inflammatory effects, but as anyone with a sunburn can tell you, it doesn't cure sunburn, that is only something your body does with time. AV gel simply provides some releif from the suffering.

No, that's not always the case. A lot of medicines only treat the symptoms and never cure, i.e., blood pressure. It all depends on the situation and the malady. I take large dosages of Ecinacea (sp) with zinc whenever somebody around me starts getting a cold or the flu. It either totally prevents it or ameliorates it to a remarkable degree.

Remember, the man asked for input based on a consideration that maybe there was something he could try on his son that would be effective without being as invasive. Certain herbal remedies work for certain maladies to certain degrees of effectiveness. Simple as that.

Fantome
04-08-2009, 12:54 AM
Just to clarify, my experience is that it is always best to start off as least invasively as possible but ultimately you've got to do what you've got to do.
That's good advice...if you're helping someone fix their computer or something else that's not life threatening. Otherwise it's best to let the medical professionals inform you of what the best choices for you are. Do you think they go for the more invasive procedures when it's not necessary? Do you think an herbalist is qualified to tell the OP what's best for his son's serious condition?


Just remember, doctors are your friends, they're not you Gods.
Your point?

Fantome
04-08-2009, 01:01 AM
I take large dosages of Ecinacea (sp) with zinc whenever somebody around me starts getting a cold or the flu. It either totally prevents it or ameliorates it to a remarkable degree.
That's a lot less dangerous than the irresponsible advice you copy and pasted earlier. Home remedies for Colds and Crohn's disease are apples and oranges.

Certain herbal remedies work for certain maladies to certain degrees of effectiveness. Simple as that.
And a qualified doctor pointed out in this thread that the herbal remedies you posted were dangerous, could cause death and other life threatening conditions. Simple as that.

Rick
04-08-2009, 01:10 AM
I'm not touching the rest of your post- if it works for you, fine.

However, cayenne (capsicum frutens) is a vasodilator. It doesn't stop bleeding, it increases it.

At first blush it seems contradictory but, ironically, it is used for certain types of ulcers, peptic, I believe. What I have doe is give the guy some other people's experiences with the same condition.
Capsicum on an ulcer? :eek:
What next, rock salt for bleeding hemorrhoids?
I'm gonna need one hell of a cite to believe that capsicum is good for ulcers.

Fantome
04-08-2009, 01:38 AM
Capsicum on an ulcer? :eek:
What next, rock salt for bleeding hemorrhoids?
I'm gonna need one hell of a cite to believe that capsicum is good for ulcers.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16621751

I'm not advocating it's use without a medical professional's okay, but there does seem to be some reputable evidence that capsaicin could be helpful for ulcers.

Anaglyph
04-08-2009, 02:30 AM
Remicade (Infliximab (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infliximab)) is an antibody (a part of the immune system), which specifically blocks a particular signaling path in inflammation. It is used to bring the acute inflammation under control.

Broomstick
04-08-2009, 08:19 AM
I take large dosages of Ecinacea (sp) with zinc whenever somebody around me starts getting a cold or the flu. It either totally prevents it or ameliorates it to a remarkable degree.
On the other hand, every time I've take echinacea my allergies have gone into overdrive. Either I'm allergic to purple coneflower, or when it "stimulates" my immune system it also stimulates the malfunctioning part of it. So, needless to say, I avoid echinacea. Even a bad cold is less miserable that what echinacea does to me.

Which just illustrates the point that people are different, there is no treatment without potential side effects, and herbal remedies can have consequences. Which is why the OP's son needs to be under the care of a doctor with expertise in pediatric Crohn's disease.

jakesteele
04-08-2009, 10:16 AM
That's good advice...if you're helping someone fix their computer or something else that's not life threatening. Otherwise it's best to let the medical professionals inform you of what the best choices for you are. Do you think they go for the more invasive procedures when it's not necessary? Do you think an herbalist is qualified to tell the OP what's best for his son's serious condition?


Your point?

Yes, there are times when doctors will go for the more invasive procedures that are not necessarily called for. For instance, a friend of mine has gotten a prostate cancer scare recently and has been to four different doctors and has gotten four different opinions as to how to proceed. The least invasive is to take strong antibiotics and take a wait-and-see approach to a minor biopsy to a more agressive biopsy to going in right now and getting radioactive isotopes implanted. Same exact psychical malady, four different approaches.

If you have insomnia you will hear a full range of approaches; valerian root tea, OTC benadryl, trazadone/serequel, ambien, benzos. All of those work to varying degrees in varying cases but some start you off light and work up and others bring out the big guns right away.

jakesteele
04-08-2009, 10:42 AM
On the other hand, every time I've take echinacea my allergies have gone into overdrive. Either I'm allergic to purple coneflower, or when it "stimulates" my immune system it also stimulates the malfunctioning part of it. So, needless to say, I avoid echinacea. Even a bad cold is less miserable that what echinacea does to me.

Which just illustrates the point that people are different, there is no treatment without potential side effects, and herbal remedies can have consequences. Which is why the OP's son needs to be under the care of a doctor with expertise in pediatric Crohn's disease.


I couldn't agree with you more. Different substances will often do different things to different people, depending on their nervous system. Nothing in life is without potential side effects, including life itself. Just because something is classified as an herb does not exempt it from this rule. Technically, tobacco is an herb, poppy plants etc. are herbs (plants with medicinal qualities). As in all things related to your most precious of all assesets, health, always do what you do under a professional's care, but bear in mind that second and even third opinions are a tool you have control of.

bouv
04-08-2009, 02:19 PM
I take large dosages of Ecinacea (sp) with zinc whenever somebody around me starts getting a cold or the flu. It either totally prevents it or ameliorates it to a remarkable degree.


I don't want to get into a big debate here, but that's mostly confirmation bias on your part. No controlled clinical study has shown echinacea to have any effect on anything whatsoever.

Zinc, IIRC, does have some efficacy, but it's not that great.

jakesteele
04-08-2009, 06:42 PM
I don't want to get into a big debate here, but that's mostly confirmation bias on your part. No controlled clinical study has shown echinacea to have any effect on anything whatsoever.

Zinc, IIRC, does have some efficacy, but it's not that great.

And if you extrapolate outwards from your confirmation bias, what you are saying is that anybody, at anytime, ever, in the history of man who 'percieves' that something like Echinacea is actually effective before a definitive test comes along, that they are confirmationally biasing and mood-making and that the power of the mind is so great that it can actually overcome real sickness's and diseases. I've been doing this for years along with ginseng and have literally not gotten sick for 30 yrs. or more unless I don't take it or am late taking is at the first signs in others. So you're saying I've been mood making all of these years, innocently self-deceiving myself, right?

If my mood-making works so well on flu/colds then by extension it should do the same for cancer, right?

You really should try some of these things for yourself and see what works and what doesn't.

Marley23
04-08-2009, 06:47 PM
I've been doing this for years along with ginseng and have literally not gotten sick for 30 yrs. or more unless I don't take it or am late taking is at the first signs in others.
That sounds very much like confirmation bias, actually, since you've admitted you do get sick if you don't take echinacea soon enough.

DrDeth
04-08-2009, 06:49 PM
No controlled clinical study has shown echinacea to have any effect on anything whatsoever. .


http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T27-3V2N10N-V&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=9467d37a0e97ba82c639e35e5cdb82e0
"Thus, extracts of Echinacea purpurea and Panax ginseng enhance cellular immune function of PBMC both from normal individuals and patients with depressed cellular immunity."

http://archfami.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/7/6/541
"Conclusion In this study a prophylactic effect of the investigated echinacea extracts could not be shown. However, based on the results of this and 2 other studies, one could speculate that there might be an effect of echinacea products in the order of magnitude of 10% to 20% relative risk reduction. Future studies with much larger sample sizes would be needed to prove this effect. "

http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jf990677%2B

http://annals.highwire.org/cgi/content/abstract/136/1/42

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T7P-3SK95BJ-2&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=8348c1999ff5afe0af70db5490e4ec3a
"These results demonstrate the immune stimulatory ability of the unpurified fresh pressed juice of Echinacea purpurea and offer some insight into the nature of the resulting immune response as compared to endotoxin."

jakesteele
04-08-2009, 09:31 PM
That sounds very much like confirmation bias, actually, since you've admitted you do get sick if you don't take echinacea soon enough.

Or, it could be just what I've said...It works, simple as that.

I've got a great one for you from my own personal experience. Ever since high school I've had an inflammaroty/ulcerous condition on the right side of my stomach. A couple of times I had to get medical intervention for it when it flared up into full blown ulcers. Most of the time it is not a debilitating pain, just an annoyance and an knawing, throbbing pain. So, years ago I started taking Cat's Claw, which was touted as the South American Ginseng. I was taking it for all the things that ginseng is supposed to do; strength immune system, energy, etc. So that is where my confirmation bias was headed. After the first day my ulcerous condition began to abate. No biggie, the pain would come and go in waves and cycles, heavily influenced by things like booze, cigs, coffee, hot spices, etc. I didn't even give it a thought. When the bottle of CC ran out, the pain came back. Still no biggie, it was a pattern that had repeated itself hundreds of times in my life. I bought another bottle for the ginseng bias confirmation and the pain went away.

All of this got me wondering so I researched CC and found that one of its major characteristics was a powerful astringent agent. I experimented with taking large amounts throughout the day chased down with a big glass of aloe vera juice. Worked like a charm. As soon as I feel a wave coming on I take large amounts of both and the boo boo goes away. I can feel it healing by the itching that often times accompanies the healing process.

Now, to stress my point, I was taking something for one purpose with all my subconscious biases heading in the direction of ginseng affects when lo and behold, out of the blue, comes a totally unexpected effect that I actually did not correlate to the CC at first.

If you have standard ulcers and you take my recipe, I will guarantee you will feel relief. I've turned on maybe 30-40 people to this and all are happy as clams at high tide.

Moral of the story: just because something doesn't compute on your computer doesn't necessarily mean it ain't real. Get out there and do some footwork and discover for yourself.

Really Not All That Bright
04-08-2009, 10:09 PM
Moral of the story: just because something doesn't compute on your computer doesn't necessarily mean it ain't real. Get out there and do some footwork and discover for yourself.
No, but if something fails to compute on 4,000 peoples' computers, it ain't real.

bouv
04-09-2009, 12:37 AM
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T27-3V2N10N-V&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=9467d37a0e97ba82c639e35e5cdb82e0
"Thus, extracts of Echinacea purpurea and Panax ginseng enhance cellular immune function of PBMC both from normal individuals and patients with depressed cellular immunity."

http://archfami.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/7/6/541
"Conclusion In this study a prophylactic effect of the investigated echinacea extracts could not be shown. However, based on the results of this and 2 other studies, one could speculate that there might be an effect of echinacea products in the order of magnitude of 10% to 20% relative risk reduction. Future studies with much larger sample sizes would be needed to prove this effect. "

http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jf990677%2B

http://annals.highwire.org/cgi/content/abstract/136/1/42

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T7P-3SK95BJ-2&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=8348c1999ff5afe0af70db5490e4ec3a
"These results demonstrate the immune stimulatory ability of the unpurified fresh pressed juice of Echinacea purpurea and offer some insight into the nature of the resulting immune response as compared to endotoxin."

Sorry, I should have no said no legitimate clinical study. Half of those studies admit that no significant results were found. From your own cites:
Echinacea may be helpful in the treatment or prevention of upper respiratory tract infections, but trial data are not fully convincing.


In this study a prophylactic effect of the investigated echinacea extracts could not be shown. However, based on the results of this and 2 other studies, one could speculate that there might be an effect of echinacea products in the order of magnitude of 10% to 20% relative risk reduction. Future studies with much larger sample sizes would be needed to prove this effect.

Oh, there might be a 10% to 20% reduction, even though it couldn't be shown?


Another is merely claiming it has anti-oxidant properties and stops free radicals...that it may do, but the jury is still out on whether anti-oxidants really are as awesome as believed, and if you can even get all the anti-oxidents these foods/extracts claim to have by eating them.

And the two that claimed to have good results were in vitro studies, so big whoop-dee-do. You can't do an in vitro study and then just turn around and claim it will work exactly as it did like that in the human body. Hey, guess what, I can cure HIV infections in an in vitro experiment if I wanted to, so I guess I should become a millionaire for making the cure to HIV/AIDS?

bouv
04-09-2009, 12:45 AM
I've been doing this for years along with ginseng and have literally not gotten sick for 30 yrs. or more unless I don't take it or am late taking is at the first signs in others. So you're saying I've been mood making all of these years, innocently self-deceiving myself, right?


I've never really heard the term "mood-making," before, but I take it to mean some sort of "mind over matter" type of thing? Then no, that is not what I am saying at all, though I will agree with you that you are self-deceiving yourself to a degree.

Confirmation bias is when you (usually unconsciously) remember when something worked in your favor (you took the herb and didn't get sick,) and ignore/explain away the times it didn't (oh, I didn't take the herb soon enough, so I got sick.)

There's a reason every single herbal supplement has the disclaimer "This claims have not been evaluated by the FDA. The product is not intended to treat, cure, or prevent any disease." It's because they know they can't do shit, and if they ever did TRY to get approval from the FDA to say they can legitimately cure or prevent a cold, they would get a big letter back saying "your studies didn't prove a damn thing, keep that disclaimer on there."

But hey, if you want to waste your money on useless things, be my guest. No skin off my back.

jakesteele
04-09-2009, 05:04 AM
No, but if something fails to compute on 4,000 peoples' computers, it ain't real.

That would depend on what type of datat was inputed, who inputed it, why did they input it and how much or how little did they input.

jakesteele
04-09-2009, 05:40 AM
I've never really heard the term "mood-making," before, but I take it to mean some sort of "mind over matter" type of thing? Then no, that is not what I am saying at all, though I will agree with you that you are self-deceiving yourself to a degree.

Confirmation bias is when you (usually unconsciously) remember when something worked in your favor (you took the herb and didn't get sick,) and ignore/explain away the times it didn't (oh, I didn't take the herb soon enough, so I got sick.)

There's a reason every single herbal supplement has the disclaimer "This claims have not been evaluated by the FDA. The product is not intended to treat, cure, or prevent any disease." It's because they know they can't do shit, and if they ever did TRY to get approval from the FDA to say they can legitimately cure or prevent a cold, they would get a big letter back saying "your studies didn't prove a damn thing, keep that disclaimer on there."

But hey, if you want to waste your money on useless things, be my guest. No skin off my back.

If it ever gets to the point of 'skin off your back' let me know, I'll send you an herbal recipe for an herbal poultice that will fix you right up. :D

Here's another part of that story that pertains to the point I am making. One time I got really bad from too much booze, cigs, aspirin, coffee etc. and went to an internal med guy. He scoped me and said my stomack looked like a Viet Nam battle field after a mortar attack. He said he wasn't going to mess around, he was going to give me what he called 'the atomic bomb' of ulcer medication...Prilosec (before it was OTC). He said he could only prescribe it for 60 days because it caused tumors in lab rats.:eek: I told him I was also going to take my CC, aloe, and some new stuff called DGL(licorice root extract) which helps heal ulcers and coat the stomach lining to make it stronger. The doctor rolls his eyes in his head and says, "If you was the placebo effect, fine, it won't hurt you." So anyway, I get off the Prilosec in 7 days due to the effectivness of the herbal regime and don't go see the guy until another two years have gone by. Guess what he adviced me to do? Have you guessed yet? Well, I'll tell you. The pompus fuck had the audacity to tell me this: "Well, Mr. Houston, us Internal Med guys have been recommending to our patients that they take this marvelous compound called DGL, it's a licorice root extract that heals, sooths and coats the stomach lining."

When I heard him say this, my jaw dropped and I ripped into him telling him how I had told him that two yrs. previously and he had condescendingly poo hooed me and because I had taught him something that he now used as a standard protocol, without crediting the source, I was going to charge him exactly what this office visit cost as my teaching fee for him was. I walked out of the office, never looked back and never received a bill. To the best of my knowledge, DGL has not been approved by the FDA. Neither has cannabis for glaucoma or chemotherapy.

An herb is nothing but a plant with medicinal qualities. The cigs/coffee some people on this site consume daily are herbs that have very powerful mind altering, mood changing effects and have not been approved by the FDA but they work.

People of yore didn't just walk around the country side grabbing random bushes, leaves, twigs and bark and say, "Me take this for tummy, Me take this for hemroids." There was a reason they took what they took for the reason they took it. It was the best they had to work with until modern science came on the scene.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dgl

samclem
04-09-2009, 07:58 AM
Moderator Note:

Since we're in General Questions, I think this one has gone as far, if not farther, than possible.

If anyone wishes to open another thread debating points raised, feel free.

Closed. samclem Moderator, General Questions.