Stupid Equestrian Pharmaceutical Tricks

[cerberus]

Per here (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2009092550_apusdeadpolohorses.html)

Stupid polo team can't legally bring allegedly safe supplement into the US.

See, the stuff is not approved for use by the USFDA.

Said stupid, fucking polo team has a compounded version allegedly safe supplement compounded by a US pharmacy.

Said pharmacy gets it wrong:


A Florida pharmacy that mixed the medication said Thursday that an internal review found "the strength of an ingredient in the medication was incorrect." Jennifer Beckett, chief operating officer for Franck's Pharmacy in Ocala, Fla., would not say whether the incorrect amount was specified in the order that came from a Florida veterinarian.


The treated horses die.

If the stuff is safe, why hasn't the FDA approved it? Is it not safe? Has the FDA not evaluated it yet? Have the makers applied for approval?

If the "strengths of an ingredient" were that incorrect, wouldn't QA/QC protocols detect that?

The stuff is meant for "exhausted horses" - the horses are generally exhausted for good reason - let the fuckers rest, hydrate them. They're not machines, dammit.

If the team was cheating by using an unapproved supplement, fuck them too.

Fuckity fucking dead horses fucking fucked-up compounded meds fucking sleazy cheating team.

[friedo]

Look on the bright side. The price of glue has plummeted.

[Zabali_Clawbane]

<snip>

If the team was cheating by using an unapproved supplement, fuck them too.

Fuckity fucking dead horses fucking fucked-up compounded meds fucking sleazy cheating team.

I don't know why a compound of vitamins and minerals wouldn't be approved, but that is apparently want it is. Not steroids or the like. I'd hardly call making sure your horses get vitamins and minerals so they can perform at peak "cheating". That'd be like calling track stars cheaters for drinking Gatorade, or Quick Kick back in the day. :dubious: You lose a lot of minerals via sweating, you know?

[Zabali_Clawbane]

This is what I meant by Quickick (http://www.sportskids.com/superstore/Hockey/Sports+Medicine_Health+Drinks/p/423071.html). Apparently they said teams cannot use it for Cross Country now (in Kansas at least, last I'd heard) because not every team could afford it. Coach bought it for us out of his own pocket.

[j666]

I don't know why a compound of vitamins and minerals wouldn't be approved, ...
Well, the ingredients in this compound apparently killed a lot of horses ...

The article does not indicate the drug, or supplement, was refused FDA approval. It's possible that approval has never been sought; drug manufacturing regulations are still not fully harmonized. The demand may not be great enough for the drug company to go to the expense of seeking FDA approval.

My equine biology is a bit shaky [read: non-existent], but:
1. B vitamin are water soluble and easily filtered and excreted; it would probably take a compound error of using the vitamin as the filler ... a very expensive mistake
2. Sodium, potassium, and calcium are the minerals very important in the function of muscle, such as the heart; the relative levels of each are very important; screwing that up could cause a heart attack, particularly in a stressed animal
3. The FDA may not care about compounding pharmacies, but the USP does.
4. People dealing with drugs generally use metric units, so this shouldn't be a metric v. 'English' units issue.

If I find any more specific chemical details, I'll post.

[horsetech]

I was a little surprised by this selenium-containing concoction, although I shouldn't be surprised by the snake-oil/placebo "remedies" used by the old-timers in equestrian sports.

I am not a vet.

1. Selenium is an essential micronutrient; deficiency can occur in regions of the U.S. where the soil, and thus grasses and hays, are lacking, and can cause neuromuscular problems. However, there is a pretty narrow range for the desired levels, and it is easy to overdo supplementation and cause toxicity, even using oral supplements. It is not uncommon to do blood tests if you think a horse is showing signs of deficiency, since too much is as bad as too little. Also, it is available as an oral supplement, so I'm not sure why they felt the need to inject it.
2. OK, B12 I've heard of, but likely unnecessary.
3. Potassium and magnesium? Maybe it's just me, but I just don't see the logic of randomly giving horses certain electrolytes, but not others (sodium, chloride, calcium?), once a week. The body is pretty good at regulating these things, as long as you give them access to a mineral block and clean water. Giving electrolytes once a week seems like it would hardly do any good, as the kidneys excrete excess potassium, etc. If they really think that the polo ponies were getting so dehydrated they couldn't maintain electrolyte status with a handful of a commercial oral supplement in their feed, why not give a balanced electrolyte solution, such as Lactated Ringer's, IV on nights the horses were really beat?

4. Giving potassium IV is not something to be taken lightly -- pushing it too fast can cause heart arrhythmias and other problems.

Unfortunately, a lot of practices in the horse world seem to be based more on superstition and placebo effect than modern, evidence-backed medicine.

[Dag Otto]

Look on the bright side. The price of glue has plummeted.

No kidding. Horses. Dead.

Who fucking cares?

[t-bonham@scc.net]

If the "strengths of an ingredient" were that incorrectNow this part of your rant is pretty silly. There are dozens of medicines, both human & equine, that are a safe, effective medicine at one concentration and deadly at another concentration.

My mother was made very sick by a doctor prescribing insulin pills at 5 when she should have said 0.5 concentration. 2-4 aspirin is a normal dose for a headache, but 40 aspirin will probably kill you. People get sick, even die, from overdoses of sleeping pills.

[Lynn Bodoni]

My mother was made very sick by a doctor prescribing insulin pills at 5 when she should have said 0.5 concentration. <nitpick> I think that you meant to say oral antidiabetic pills. Insulin cannot be taken in pills, it must be injected or inhaled. Insulin given by mouth will be broken down in the digestive system, doing the patient no good at all. Right now, the only option for US diabetics who need insulin is to inject it, as the inhaled version was only available for a matter of months. Believe me, if I didn't HAVE to inject myself to get my insulin, I wouldn't.</nitpick>

I'm sorry that your mother was misprescribed, having low blood sugar is dangerous and no fun at all.

[Hello Again]

Biodyl has never sought approval, which is why it is not approved. If I had to guess why they haven't ought approval, its because there are many similar products available in the U.S. market. Potassium, Magnesium, and b-12 are a combination very associated with "calming" supplements because deficiencies in these nutrients affect the nervous system in a way that makes the horse reactive to stimuli. (note that if your horse does not have a deficiency, the supplement does *nothing*).

[Sailboat]

I don't know why a compound of vitamins and minerals wouldn't be approved

Possibly because it can kill them? Just a guess.

[Hello Again]

Possibly because it can kill them? Just a guess.
How bout you read my post?

Not approved because it never sought approval.

[Long Time First Time]

Speaking as a equine veterinarian here: The final answer will no doubt come out before long. By reading the ingredients in the compounded supplement that have been published, I'd say it was the Selenium that killed them.

Selenium has what is called a narrow therapeutic window - which means there isn't a lot of difference between a necessary amount and a toxic amount. None of the other ingredients (at least those listed) do. A big overdose of selenium would be very bad news

FWIW - I just took care of a 5# goat kid who received enough selenium to treat a #150 calf. It died too.

The fall out from this will be between whether the compounding pharmacy mixed it up wrong, or whether the prescribing veterinarian miscalculated the dose. The veterinarian is out in the wilderness on his or her own if a law suit is the result. If something is given that isn't labeled for that use or is compounded, it's all on the vet. if things go wrong. There's nobody at the pharmacy who is gong to call ahd say, "hey, this dose looks a little high to me." Hopefully this will have a chilling effect on the use of compounded substances by veterinarians - something they do all the time.

The real shame of all of this is that this vitamin supplement was not really needed by these horses. Any more than somebody NEEDS to take a One-A-Day before running a marathon. I'm sure the trainers are completely married to the idea that their horses are highly-tuned athletes that need every bit of supplement crap somebody is willing to sell them, but horses can do just fine without this stuff if they are fed a good quality diet.

[Skald the Rhymer]

No kidding. Horses. Dead.

Who fucking cares?

I care. I possess the ability to feel empathy for beings outside my species.

(Which is not to say I'm gonna stop hunting.)

[Smeghead]

Speaking as a equine veterinarian here:

Only here...

[Notassmartasithought]

Don't know if this is a hijack (of course it could be), but does anyone remember the Dick Francis novel where selenium was used to cause birth defects in horses? I'd always read that Francis and his son did very good research for the novels, and Francis is one of the great English jockeys.

So what's the scoop on selenium and horses?

[Notassmartasithought]

Oh, and by the way, whose lawyer do you want to be in this thing?

[Hello Again]

Don't know if this is a hijack (of course it could be), but does anyone remember the Dick Francis novel where selenium was used to cause birth defects in horses? I'd always read that Francis and his son did very good research for the novels, and Francis is one of the great English jockeys.

So what's the scoop on selenium and horses?

Depending on what's in the soil (if grazing)/what the horse eats, it is possible for a horse to be deficient in selenium and require supplementation. Foals do need some selenium to develop properly in utero, but it is a heavy metal and I don't know that horses are really different than people in terms of the danger to fetus from high levels of heavy metal (vets, please correct me, if nec'y)

It is also possible for a horse to get selenium poisoning from chronic exposure causing all sorts of nasty effects (for example, the hoof falling off the foot, ugh!).

[Really Not All That Bright]

Why would a vitamin supplement require FDA approval at all?

[Nametag]

Don't know if this is a hijack (of course it could be), but does anyone remember the Dick Francis novel where selenium was used to cause birth defects in horses? I'd always read that Francis and his son did very good research for the novels, and Francis is one of the great English jockeys.

So what's the scoop on selenium and horses?
Yes, it was called "Banker." However, the book was a trifle speculative; while known to cause birth defects in birds, selenium has not been shown to cause birth defects in humans or in other mammals. Very high amounts of selenium have caused decreased sperm counts, increased abnormal sperm, changes in the female reproductive cycle in rats, and changes in the menstrual cycle in monkeys. The relevance of the reproductive effects of selenium exposure in animals studied to potential reproductive effects in humans is not known.

(Information from the Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry, Department of Health and Human Services)

[Attack from the 3rd dimension]

I care. I possess the ability to feel empathy for beings outside my species.

(Which is not to say I'm gonna stop hunting.)


You're hunting horses?

Murderer.












:D I kid. Is joke from 'Skald is a murderer / Mutantmoose is an idiot' thread. I like Skald. Please don't use time machine to kill my grandparents.

[EddyTeddyFreddy]

Selenium supplementation in horses is a matter requiring careful attention. Too little in the diet (http://www.buzzle.com/articles/selenium-deficiency-in-your-horse.html), and the animal can suffer a number of nasty consequences, up to and including death:
Selenium plays an essential role in maintaining a healthy body, including the immune system. Horses with selenium deficiency may show severe muscle cramping, sweating, rapid pulse, brown urine and stiffness, according to Dr. Macarena Sanz, WSU resident veterinarian in equine medicine. According to Dr. Sanz, a horse with severe selenium deficiency can appear in a few different ways. He may be reluctant to walk and sore to the touch. Or he may appear normal but refuses to chew and swallow.

Selenium-deficient horses can experience compromised immune systems or nutritional muscular dystrophy where the muscles break down. "When the heart is affected, the prognosis is very poor," she said. Additionally, foals with selenium deficiency can be either weak at birth or normal at first, then unable to stand or nurse.

The reason foals may be affected is because the broodmare mare transfers selenium to the foal during pregnancy and then again through milk when the foal nurses
The amount of selenium in the soil available for forage plants to uptake varies from insufficient for a horse's nutritional needs all the way over to toxic. When selenium is deficient it can be supplemented in the horse's feed, but there's a narrow range of safety.

At this point it appears that Long Time First Time is correct: the polo ponies received ten times the prescribed dose of selenium (http://scienceblogs.com/grrlscientist/2009/04/selenium_overdose_caused_death.php) in the vitamin/electrolyte cocktail injected into them before the match:
A chemist at Franck's Pharmacy in Ocala, Florida added ten times the requested dosage of selenium to the cocktail. It appears this was an error and not the result of foul play.

[snip]

Biodyl [the non-FDA-approved injection being duplicated by the compounding pharmacy] is given to high performance horses several days prior to a race or other strenuous event. According to a Biodyl website, this supplement contains vitamin B12 (cyanacobalamin), adenosine triphosphoric acid (ATP), potassium (potassium aspartate hemihydrate), magnesium (magnesium aspartate tetrahydrate) and selenium (sodium selenite). It is administered either in drinking water or by injection into either the muscles (IM) or a vein (IV).

Anonymous sources told La Nación, the national Argentinian newspaper, that the veterinarian's prescription requested 0.5 mg of sodium selenite per milliliter of the cocktail, but the chemist added 5 mg, or ten times that amount. According to the National Research Council, a single minimal lethal oral dose of sodium selenite in horses is 3.3 mg/kg, but a fatal injected preparation, such as what these horses received, contains a much smaller concentration.

[snip]

Symptoms of selenium poisoning include pulmonary edema, reduced blood pressure, unconsciousness and death -- which are consistent with the symptoms observed in the stricken polo horses.
I've taken the overdose information from a blog rather than a national news site, so take it for what it's worth; official confirmation is probably awaiting government confirmation. But it makes sense.

Here is a good, thorough rundown on selenium (http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/horse-health/2003/May/03/Veterinary-Topics-A-necessary-poison.aspx) as it affects horses.

ETA: My horse gets a selenium supplement because he lives on hay grown in selenium-deficient soil. His grain is supplemented by the mill, but he gets so little (four cups perday) that it's not enough. The dose I top-dress on his feed is carefully figured (in consultation with my vet) to make up the difference without going too far.

[Sailboat]

How bout you read my post?

Not approved because it never sought approval.

Dude, I wasn't answering why this specific item WASN'T approved -- I was answering the larger question "why wouldn't <something so "harmless" as a compound of vitamins and minerals> be approved," the question actually asked. I can't imagine what bee got up your bonnet with the "read my post" crap, since I wasn't replying to you anyway. Have a nice day.

[Ferret Herder]

Dude, I wasn't answering why this specific item WASN'T approved -- I was answering the larger question "why wouldn't <something so "harmless" as a compound of vitamins and minerals> be approved," the question actually asked. I can't imagine what bee got up your bonnet with the "read my post" crap, since I wasn't replying to you anyway. Have a nice day.
But that's not necessarily the case even if they would submit for approval. There are human drugs that have fatal doses extremely close to the effective dose - lithium is one classic example. FDA approval is a long, expensive, and headache-inducing process, and they may not consider it worth the effort to sell their product in the US.

[Hello Again]

But that's not necessarily the case even if they would submit for approval. There are human drugs that have fatal doses extremely close to the effective dose - lithium is one classic example. FDA approval is a long, expensive, and headache-inducing process, and they may not consider it worth the effort to sell their product in the US.
Not for an equine nutritional supplement, or indeed, a human nutritional supplement.
Generally, manufacturers do not need to register their products with FDA nor get FDA approval before producing or selling dietary supplements.
http://www.foodsafety.gov/~dms/supplmnt.html

[Dag Otto]

I care. I possess the ability to feel empathy for beings outside my species.

(Which is not to say I'm gonna stop hunting.)

Don't get me wrong - I don't wish for needless pain or suffering for any animal. But if it's dead, it dead. The OP expressed quite a bit of anger, but it's just a few horses.

[Zabali_Clawbane]

Don't get me wrong - I don't wish for needless pain or suffering for any animal. But if it's dead, it dead. The OP expressed quite a bit of anger, but it's just a few horses.

Well, it's just a few horses that died when they didn't have to die. :( They suffered as they died. :mad: This kind of thing can make some people angry, you know? :dubious: