How has Zionism become the new world "evil"?

[Querent]

:( So why am I suddenly hearing all this crap about "Zionism is racism", "Zionism is to Jews what Nazism was to Germans"?

Is the Arab/Islamist propaganda so good, or is antisemitism growing again with the downturn of world economy or is this another sign of the dumbing down syndrome???

[Der Trihs]

:( So why am I suddenly hearing all this crap about "Zionism is racism", "Zionism is to Jews what Nazism was to Germans"?You're paying more attention ? Ranting about evil "Zionists" has been around a long time.

[Alessan]

My dad was at a protest in New Haven, CT in 1970 for the release of Bobby Seale. An SDS representative came on stage (this was a well-organized protest) and instead of dealing with the matter at hand, started railing against Israel and the fascist racist Zionist pigs.

The next person to speak was Abbie Hoffman. He stood up, gave the SDS spokescritter an incredulous look, and said, "Speaking as a racist fascist Zionist pig, what the fuck did that have to do with Bobby Seale?"

In conclusion: Abbie Hoffman rocked.

[The Second Stone]

:( So why am I suddenly hearing all this crap about "Zionism is racism", "Zionism is to Jews what Nazism was to Germans"?

Is the Arab/Islamist propaganda so good, or is antisemitism growing again with the downturn of world economy or is this another sign of the dumbing down syndrome???

You haven't eliminated the possibilities. Turns out more and more people are thinking that Zionism hasn't worked out as promised and is less than desirable. I used to be a firm supporter of Israel, but frankly now believe their cause to be misguided and inescapably racist.

[Mosier]

I don't think it's the "new" world evil. People have been protesting Israel in a big way since before it was Israel. Every time things heat up there, the issue of whether Israel has a right to exist comes back into conversation. This isn't necessarily a racist issue at the core, but lots of people of different cultures all seem to think the place belongs to them.

[BigBertha]

:( So why am I suddenly hearing all this crap about "Zionism is racism", "Zionism is to Jews what Nazism was to Germans"?

Is the Arab/Islamist propaganda so good, or is antisemitism growing again with the downturn of world economy or is this another sign of the dumbing down syndrome???
Have you been reading Texe Marrs? Seriously, the guy has been raving about the Jews controlling the U.S. for a long time.
In answer to the second question-probably all of the above.
Tamara+, Zionist

[BigBertha]

In conclusion: Abbie Hoffman rocked.
true

[Lantern]

:( So why am I suddenly hearing all this crap about "Zionism is racism", "Zionism is to Jews what Nazism was to Germans"?

Is the Arab/Islamist propaganda so good, or is antisemitism growing again with the downturn of world economy or is this another sign of the dumbing down syndrome???

Where exactly are you hearing this? Antisemitism is way outside the mainstream in the Western world today. Outside the Muslim world it's not particularly widespread either. In the US, Islamophobia and anti-Arab bigotry are far more common and virulent than anti-Semitism. The "Barack Obama is a Muslism" canards and the widespread perception that this was a problem for him is a good example of this.

[Sophistry and Illusion]

I would say that "Zionism is racism" reflects the dumbing-down of discourse to precisely the same degree as "Anti-Zionism is anti-semitism" does.

[Dr. Crap]

Antisemitism is way outside the mainstream in the Western world today.
How much weight are you giving 'way'? It's not exactly anathema (http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?ReportID=262). A politician could more easily get away with anti-Muslim rhetoric but as far as virulence goes, anti-Jewish hate-crimes top the latest FBI list (http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/hc2007/table_01.htm) for religiously motivated incidents.

:( So why am I suddenly hearing all this crap about "Zionism is racism", "Zionism is to Jews what Nazism was to Germans"?

Is the Arab/Islamist propaganda so good, or is antisemitism growing again with the downturn of world economy or is this another sign of the dumbing down syndrome??? Can't it be all three? You've probably been made aware of this sentiment because of the recent Durban Review Conference (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/apr/24/durban-racism-conference-ahmadinejad). It's politically expedient in many countries, including western ones.

[FriarTed]

Have you been reading Texe Marrs? Seriously, the guy has been raving about the Jews controlling the U.S. for a long time.
In answer to the second question-probably all of the above.
Tamara+, Zionist

Marrs IS however an anomaly in that he's a Christian far-right conservative who is openly anti-Zionist, and also anti-Christian-supporter-of-Israel (Billy Graham, Pat Robertson & Jerry Falwell are all Zionist-Illuminati agents & probably Luciferian Masons to boot!)

[C K Dexter Haven]

It's always easier to toss around catchy slogans than it is to deal with serious issues.
"Zionism is racism. Pro-life (meaning that to oppose them is to be anti-life.) Tax-and-spend liberals. Stupid Pollacks. Inscrutable Chinks." The list goes on and on.

Agreed, Israel has problems. These problems don't stem from the Israelis being racist so much as from facing enemies who want to destroy them and their state, dating back to the 1940s. And many of the people who suffer from that situation are innocents, caught in the middle. This is a complex issue, and not one that will be solved by claiming that all Arabs are terrorists or that all Zionists are racists. Any more than the race problems still facing the US will be solved by name-calling or oversimplifying complex issues.

[Rand Rover]

I would say that "Zionism is racism" reflects the dumbing-down of discourse to precisely the same degree as "Anti-Zionism is anti-semitism" does.

Amen and amen. I think it is ridiculous that a group of people believe that an incorporeal entity granted them the inalienable right to occupy a piece of land. That doesn't mean I think that Jews as a race are inferior to any other race.

[Rand Rover]

This is a complex issue

. . . with a very simple genesis: the belief that "god said it's my land so fuck everybody else," which is patently stupid and not worty of respect.

[Alessan]

. . . with a very simple genesis: the belief that "god said it's my land so fuck everybody else," which is patently stupid and not worty of respect.

Except that Zionism was devised - and implemented successfully - by agnostic and atheist intellectuals, and not, as any reasonably educated person would know, by the religious-minded. It had much more to do with late-19th Century European nationalism (which also led to the unifications of Germany and Italy and the lifting of Turkish rule from the Balkans) than with any God. "Religious Zionism," the subset that the ignorant confuse with mainstream, Zionism, largely arose after 1967.

[Simplicio]

Except that Zionism was devised - and implemented successfully - by agnostic and atheist intellectuals, and not, as any reasonably educated person would know, by the religious-minded. It had much more to do with late-19th Century European nationalism (which also led to the unifications of Germany and Italy and the lifting of Turkish rule from the Balkans) than with any God. "Religious Zionism," the subset that the ignorant confuse with mainstream, Zionism, largely arose after 1967.

And on the other side, the early anti-zionist Arabs who tried to force the Jews out of Palestine were largely motivated by pan-arabic nationalism rather then religion.

Not that religion is a non-factor, especially now. But it hardly deserves the bulk of the blame.

[tomndebb]

I suspect that the direct answer to the OP is in Dr Crap's post. Anyone hearing "more" about issues of "Zionism" has probbly caught recent reports that the U.S., U.K. and numerous other countries intend to boycott the UN conference in Geneva intended to follow up on the issues of racism. The Durban conference was hijacked by the "anti-Zionist" zealots in 2001, leading to the U.S. and numerous other countries walking out before it ended. The missino statement set for Geneva gave lip service to avoiding the same problem, but then turned right around and set an agenda that was pretty much a list of meetings to condemn Israel.

Hence, a number of countries that chose to not sit on a kangaroo court of condemnation decided to boycott Geneva, leading to a number of discussions, in the news, about Zionism.

[tomndebb]

Rand Rover, do not hijack this thread with appeals to imaginary events, please.


[ /Modding ]

[Jackmannii]

Is the Arab/Islamist propaganda so good, or is antisemitism growing again with the downturn of world economy or is this another sign of the dumbing down syndrome???All of these come into play to some extent, but as mentioned in connection with the UN (see previous link), railings against Zionism are meant to take the heat off the worst human rights offenders:

"the countries that endorsed the (anti-racism, pro-human rights agenda) include some of the worst violators of human rights, with murder of opponents, suppression of women and homosexuals, slavery and savage punishments."

[BrainGlutton]

Here's a practical reason: Zionism does not directly harm anyone but the Palestinians and, on odd occasions, the Lebanese. But it complicates things for everyone. The "Arab street" is constantly exercised over it, and it gives government leaders around the Islamic world a rally-round-the-flag point whenever they feel like being aggressive or oppressive, and of course is also a propaganda point for jihadist terrorists. And, of course, all non-Islamic states have to take that into account in their relations with Israel and with the Islamic world, and it's just one big long massive unending migraine headache. If the Israeli-Palestinian situation were finally resolved, whether by a one-state or a two-state solution, that would be a good thing for everybody. Therefore, the Israelis can't fairly claim the whole situation is their internal business and theirs alone; all the world, willy-nilly, has a stake in it.

[Alessan]

No-one's denying that a conflict exists between Israel and its neighbors. It's just that instead of defining it in nebluous ideological terms, it would behoove the world to treat it as just another dispute between various peoples located in a certain region.

[BrainGlutton]

No-one's denying that a conflict exists between Israel and its neighbors. It's just that instead of defining it in nebluous ideological terms, it would behoove the world to treat it as just another dispute between various peoples located in a certain region.

But, it isn't. It should be that, but in practice it is an intractable point of conflict between the Islamic world and the Western word.

The problem -- part of the problem -- is that Muslims think of Israel/Palestine/Canaan as "Islamic land," because it was once, and it is essential to their worldview that once territory has become part of Dar-al-Islam it must never again come under infidel rule. I wouldn't be surprised if some of them aren't still smarting over the loss of Spain.

[Alessan]

But, it isn't. It should be that, but in practice it is an intractable point of conflict between the Islamic world and the Western word.


One of many.


And no, they haven't forgotten Spain. Read Edward Said for some pining for al-Andalus.

[Rune]

What meaning has Zionism today? It appears that after the creation of the modern state of Israel Zionism is a dated movement almost empty of meaning. And certainly not worthy of all the attention some people are giving it, like suddenly getting all upset about luddites railing against looms.

[Rand Rover]

Rand Rover, do not hijack this thread with appeals to imaginary events, please.


[ /Modding ]

What the hell are you talking about? Atheist intellectuals may have gotten the ball rolling on Zionism, but to treat a mention of the religious element as a hijack is insane.

[Alessan]

What meaning has Zionism today? It appears that after the creation of the modern state of Israel Zionism is a dated movement almost empty of meaning. And certainly not worthy of all the attention some people are giving it, like suddenly getting all upset about luddites railing against looms.

Well, to most Israelis, Zionism is pretty much identical to what other nations call "patriotism." To non-Israelis, it means support of Israel. But classic, old-school Zionist ideology is pretty much over, mainly because unlike most ideologies, it was sucessful. They set out to found a country, and they founded a country.

[Querent]

Well this has been fun....
No, seriously, I suppose the issue has come up in meetings, at dinner, with new acquaintances and it's been mind-blowing how much I've heard the same stuff repeated from so-called "intelligent" people.

I've been to Egypt, Jordan, Israel, and would have loved to have been able to visit other countries in the region. What I did notice was that there didn't seem to be lots of church and synagogue activity in the first two countries, but lots of every religion under the sun in the last. And nowhere did I see any type of democracy similar to what we have in North America except in Israel, where in their Knesset, there were Arab reps who seemed to really have a legitimate voice.

But no, I've not been reading Texx Marrs, but thanks for bringing him to my attention. Just sounds like the bigoted type of conspiracy lover I like to avoid.

I suppose Durban brought out a lot of issues, but right before Durban I suppose I found too many people I thought should know better looking for the proverbial victim, and my questions here have borne some fruitful answers. And about the reference to the validity of Zionism today: isn't the current charter of Hamas and the current climate reasons enough to keep the concept alive to make sure a people, (I don't think I'd call Jews a race but a religious entity) survives as one bastion of free speech, free press, and a link from ancient to modern thought and action all in one unique country.

[tomndebb]

What the hell are you talking about? Atheist intellectuals may have gotten the ball rolling on Zionism, but to treat a mention of the religious element as a hijack is insane.You did not treat it as a "mention of a religious element," you pretended that that was the whole of the movement when the reality is the that people who actually believe that they are entitled the land because God gave it to them is a tiny minority that is actually ridiculed by most Israelis.

[mutantmoose]

This is the document in question, the outcome of the Durban Review Conference.

I started reading it but got bored, it goes on too long. What's the bit that people objected to?

http://www.un.org/durbanreview2009/pdf/Durban_Review_outcome_document_En.pdf

[Dissonance]

You're paying more attention ? Ranting about evil "Zionists" has been around a long time.This is pretty much the reason. The Protocols of the Elders of Zion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion) has been around since the late 19th century. ZOG (Zionist Occupation Government) has been the bugaboo of extremist racist groups in the US like The Order and the Aryan Nations since the mid-70s at least. The existence of the militia movement came to media attention after the Oklahoma City bombing when McVeigh was linked to them, these militias conspiratorial enemy is usually the NWO or ZOG. Either way, a conspiracy to create a single government world run by the Jews, or the Freemasons, or the Rothschild’s, or whatever, with Zionism and a Jewish conspiracy figuring into it at one point.

[Argent Towers]

Nowadays it seems like there's a weird intersection of far-left ideology and "ZOG"-type "anti-Zionist" conspiracy theory stuff. The Jeff Rense (www.rense.com) show is a good example of what I mean.

[tomndebb]

This is the document in question, the outcome of the Durban Review Conference.

I started reading it but got bored, it goes on too long. What's the bit that people objected to?

http://www.un.org/durbanreview2009/pdf/Durban_Review_outcome_document_En.pdfNo one actually objected to that document, per se. The initial draft of the 2001 Darwin Conference statement included several paragraphs such as [The World Conference recognizes with deep concern the increase of racist practices of Zionism and anti-Semitism in various parts of the world, as well as the emergence of racial and violent movements based on racism and discriminatory ideas, in particular, the Zionist movement which is based on racial superiority;]After the U.S. walked out of that conference, those sections were deleted.
In the run up to the Geneva conference, there were a number of claims by various Arab states, plus Iran, that the "issue" of "Zionism" still had to be addressed in this conference. In addition, a number of anti-semitic statements had been included in the regional meetings that preceded the conference. At that point, the U.S. and several other countries declined to participate. When Iran's Ahmadinejad spoke at the Geneva Conference, he made a pointr of claiming that Iserael was founded on racism, prompting a number of countries' representatives to walk out.

[mutantmoose]

Is a boycott the right way to go then?

It's par for the course to have widely differing views at a UN conference with lots of posturing beforehand. That's the whole point of the UN - to bring together all the countries in the world despite the fact that they don't agree with each other (or even hate each other).

Walking out during the Iran speech makes more sense - conveys disapproval without having to miss all the rest of the conference. This point is underlined if the actual document that came out at the end contained nothing that would prevent the US being a signatory to it (if they were there).