NFL post-draft thread

[furt]

Just because the other thread is already really long, this is a new thread for grades, etc.



New England had another great draft, stockpiling picks for 2010 to continue the dynasty. A+

Ditto Pittsburgh. Rich get richer.

My Eagles did quite well: Maclin was not my first choice, but I like all the rest of the picks very much. A-

Including Gonzalez, the Falcons did great, too. A sure thing for the Offense, and a whole slew of possibilities for the D.

For some specific predictions:


Louis Murphy will be a better player than Darrius Heyward-Bey.

Percy Harvin will be wasted in Minnesota. He is a complementary player, not a #1 WR. And he has no QB.

Unless they add some FAs, the Colts will regret not taking more/better WRs.

If he stays healthy, Pat White will be one of the two best QBs in this draft. I am quite confident of this. I'd lay money.


Not "wildcat QB," not overall player: Quarterback. He will be better than at least two of the first-round QBs, maybe better than all three.

Despite ESPN's hyping of the Sanchez deal, I think he's heading into a bad situation. First off, it's a team with an iffy receiving corps, though obviously that could change. More fundamentally, it's an old team, because they keep dealing away their draft picks. Finally, the GM is on thin ice. If fired, the head coach will be on thin ice, since the new GM would want to hire his own guy. I see a lot of instablity.

Stafford is overrated, heading to a wasteland, and Detroit didn't improve their o-line; a young QB needs a line more than he needs receivers IMO. There were good OTs on the board in the 2nd round. And Josh Freeman has "Bust" written all over him.

White, in contrast, will get snaps this year as the wildcat QB, and in 2010 he will beat out Henne, taking over a young team that's in year 3 of a Parcells rebuild (but will have low expectations after missing playoffs in 2009).

[Least Original User Name Ever]

I like Pat White as well. I don't know if he'll end up being the best quarterback this year, but there's an outside possibility that he could be. He won't get a fair shake, though. Just ask Doug Flutie.


The Lions' draft was okay. I would have liked to have seen more emphasis on the lines, but I'm coming to grips with it.

[Omniscient]

This Pat White love is utter nonsense. His ceiling is Seneca Wallace. He played in the same type of passing system that Graham Harrell, Timmy Chang and Chris Leak played in, except he had the crutch of a spread option at his disposal to help him avoid sacks, blitzes and 3rd and long situations. The only way White has any career is if an NFL team adopts a full spread offensive system, and that's just not going to happen.

The same people killing Mark Sanchez for being a one-year wonder somehow think Pat White is a viable QB with what amounts to ZERO starts as a drop back QB. He's complete hype. Get over it.

[Sunrazor]

Wait, the local sports guy just said there are still two more rounds. What two more rounds? This is so confusing! Does his mean my Broncos may still draft some defensive linemen?

[Omniscient]

Wait, the local sports guy just said there are still two more rounds. What two more rounds? This is so confusing! Does his mean my Broncos may still draft some defensive linemen?

Find a new station.

[Jules Andre]

I think the Eagles did really well. I thought their last two drafts were pretty good, and I think this one tops them both. Peters (acquired right before the draft and entirely with picks counts as a draft move in my eyes), Maclin, McCoy, and Ingram are all dynamite weapons. This offense could be retooled with explosive young talent in a hurry. From what I'm reading, Ingram was an amazing value in the fifth and should be a terrific pass catching TE.

Not a lot of defensive help, but the Eagles traded for Ellis Hobbs (between DeSean Jackson, Maclin, and Hobbs, I don't remember an Eagles team having this much firepower on special teams) and picked up CB Victor Harris, who is an absolute ball hawk and should make for a really good safety. The Eagles also picked up some extra picks in 2010 to bolster that draft. I'm loving the movement with this team, they really seem to get the overall strategy of continuous retooling without rebuilding.

Overall I don't think the picks after the 5th will end up doing much, none of them seem to be high upside players, which is fine. Perhaps Fokou turns into a good backup, but I don't see anything anywhere else. There is a lot of youth on this team and a ton of potential, especially on offense. I think this was an A draft, for sure.

[A Spoonful of Awesome]

Wait, the local sports guy just said there are still two more rounds. What two more rounds? This is so confusing! Does his mean my Broncos may still draft some defensive linemen?

I am so utterly baffled by McDaniels and company. Without a doubt the biggest weakness our team has is the defensive line which, behind the qb (no comment necessary.. :mad:), is the most important element to a team's success. We had a shot at Orakpo who would make an immediate impact, or we could've traded up and gotten Raji who is going to be an absolute beast and instead we draft... a running back :smack:. Our 7th running back. On a team that has historically done very well with a committee of good middle round backs. Not a single DL in the bunch (unless you count Ayers, who IMO is more a LB). On top of that, we managed to squander away what is sure to be a top-10 pick in next year's (much stronger) draft and any chance at landing a decent qb to get a 2nd rounder in which we picked... a corner. Because cornerback is definitely our most pressing need on D :rolleyes:. I honestly think McDaniels is predicting that his 6th round qb is going to be the next Brady under his tutelage and we'll win all our games by NBA scores.

So. Pissed. Off.

[Hamlet]

I'll quickly comment on a couple things, and then take a longer (probably tedious, boring, and completely wrong) look at the Packers and other teams.

First, I'm not feeling the Patriot draft love that was evident all fucking day on ESPN. They traded down, got a lot of players, and some second round picks for next year. Yippee!!! I think it is a very valid approach, especially if you have a solid team and a great talent evaluation process. But did it deserve the ESPN Hype it got. No. Teams have been doing it for years.

It also goes for the Jet's trade up to get Sanchez. The reason these things get so much hype is because ESPN wants them to so they can sell advertising for the draft stuff. They need something to talk about, something exciting, to fill the time. So when a team trades up early in the first round, or are named the Patriots, they get their asses kissed. Give them something to talk about is the only thing that matters.

I'm probably too hard on the Patriots. I REALLY like the Myron Pryor pick and together with Brace, the Patriots have really solidified their D Line for a long time. But seeing as how they passed on getting Oher, a great number of WR, Sintim, and others, I don't see why anyone would think this draft was great. Chung may be fine, but he's a liability in coverage, Butler is good value, I suppose, but he had 0 ints this year, and that's at a smaller school. He's not an NFL starting cornerback. Vollmer (who I really loved getting in the 5th or later) was an incredible reach (had it been done by anyone but the Patriots, the talking heads would have been lambasting them ala Al Davis and Heyward Bey), Tate is a head case with an injury (don't forget to look at the talent at WR they passed on to trade down), and the rest seem to be nothing more than a bunch of possible backups. I'm not sure where they think the pass rush is going to come from or how they'll cover people, but, hey, they're the Patriots.

All in all, for all the moving, shaking, and trading, I don't see a single impact player in their entire draft. Not one. That's not to say they didn't do a good job of getting capable backups and maybe a starter down the road, for their O and D lines, or that they don't have the luxury of not needing to have a great draft, but there is no way I think this draft was anything better than average, and more likely fits in the "not good" category.

I guess it's too late for these to be "quick thoughts"

[Hamlet]

Going through the OP:

The Steelers draft didn't really impress me either. I like Ziggy Hood, and I think learning from the guys who are there now, he'll develop into a capable starter at DE for them. He may also be able to fill in at NT. I think they got good value trading out of the second and getting more third round picks, only because they got Hood. The players they passed on by trading down were no longer fits for their needs (Gilbert, McGee). But still, they may regret passing on Fletcher and Williams. I really like the Urbik pick, and, if they're lucky, he may develop into a massive RT that they can run behind. But after that, they get a bunch of "Why?"s from me. Mike Wallace, Keenan Lewis, Frank Summers, and the rest are really, to me, a bunch of nobodies. And while Joe Burnett may develop at CB, I see him as Allan Rossum, a guy who returns kicks but not much more. And picking those nobodies left the Steelers with their gaping holes on their O Line, which, to me, is simply astounding (yes, I know they got Shipley. I mean GOOD O Linemen). You're a great team, that competes hard and has the best defense in the country, but your O Line sucks. So you draft two O Linemen, the same number of DT's and CBs as you got.

But, they won the Super Bowl last year, so they don't have any massive needs. But, just as with the Patriots, I still don't see their draft as all that impressive.

Take it as a grain of salt, of course.

[gonzomax]

The Lions QB is Culpepper this year. He is 31 and showed up 30 lbs lighter. Perhaps he will show some gumption and fight for the position. I doubt Stafford is going to be tossed into any games.
Draft ratings are a sport of their own. A guy called in to a sports station and said in the last 20 years ,the lowest the Lion draft had been rated ,(by Sports Illustrated), was C+. Yet we know how well they panned out.

[Least Original User Name Ever]

The Lions QB is Culpepper this year. He is 31 and showed up 30 lbs lighter. Perhaps he will show some gumption and fight for the position. I doubt Stafford is going to be tossed into any games.
Draft ratings are a sport of their own. A guy called in to a sports station and said in the last 20 years ,the lowest the Lion draft had been rated ,(by Sports Illustrated), was C+. Yet we know how well they panned out.

Exactly why I'm so hesitant to give horrible grades to teams that have done very well in the draft and why I'm disinclined to give the Lions anything more than a C. With that being said, I guess quarterback is a position of need, so they filled that. The tight end almost seems more like a blocking tight end than a tight end that can hit the zone seams and make defenses pay. I like the Louis Delmas pick, though.

We'll see how it goes. Maybe the Lions and Patriots will buck their respective trends and have had an unusual draft this year.

[Hamlet]

The Eagles.

You remember Groundhog Day with Bill Murray? Where the same thing happens over and over and over? That's Andy Reid's draft. He picked DeSean Jackson, I mean Jeremy Maclin. Then Brian Westbrook, I mean LeSean McCoy.

My evaluation of the Eagles draft highlights a very interesting point (interesting likely only to me, but hey!) about drafting. I really liked HOW the Eagles drafted, but I didn't always like WHO they drafted (if that makes any sense). The Eagles did a very good job of getting the best players available and for good value. Moving up for Maclin was, to me, a great choice, if you like Maclin. Unfortunately, I don't. But the STRATEGERY of moving up two spots to grab a highly rated guy with great value, is wonderful. It's just that you have to do it for the right guy. (This is the exact same position I'm in with the Packers trading up to get Matthews. A great strategic decision with great value, but is the guy worth it will be the big question). But I'll assume the Eagles know better about Maclin than I do. I also don't like McCoy, I think guys like him very rarely ever develop as Westbrook has. Unless you think lightning can strike twice and turn a scat back into a successful between the tackles runner, it's a questionable call.

The same happens in picking Ingram. I think Celek is a fine pass catching TE and that you don't need another, but Ingram is great value in the 5th. Victor Harris is a fantastic zone DB and, again, incredible value in the 5th. Tupou is a great project OT who could really develop well, and Fokou has a great name. The player I really liked though is Brandon Gibson. He had a great junior year and projected very well in the NFL draft... and then the spread offense came and he lost it. His numbers, and his confidence, took a big hit, and he looked completely average his senior year and in the draft prep stuff. Still, I think he has the skill, ability, size, and mind to compete in the NFL. Though he may not be the best fit in the West Coast Offense, where YAC are huge, he's a good compliment to Maclin and Jackson, and good value when drafted. Keep an eye on him. Maybe.

All in all, I really liked how the Eagles drafted, and some of the guys they did. But judging it depends a ton on what you think of Maclin and McCoy. I don't like them as NFL players, but Reid apparently does. And, again, he knows more than I. If you like them too, I think the Eagles had an outstanding draft.

[Hamlet]

One last thought on the Eagles:

A lot of how this draft went also depends on whether you like Jason Peters and Ellis Hobbs. I don't like Peters for what they gave up, but Hobbes for two 5th rounders was good. Peters, if he returns to 2007 form, will be a great trade.

[MOIDALIZE]

The Browns had an interesting draft. I think if they had been able to get a trade for Braylon Edwards they would have stayed at 5 and taken Raji or Orakpo. Instead they traded down and addressed the biggest disappointments from last season, the O line and the receivers. I was a little irritated that Mangini would come in and scrap an offense that 2 seasons ago was exciting and successful just to bring in "his guys," but now the offense could potentially be pretty good this season, assuming the QB situation gets worked out. I give the Browns a B.

I thought Seattle had a nice draft. They got Curry and Unger, they added another WR, and they snagged Denver's 2010 first round pick.

[Hamlet]

One last thing, Pat White will not be a successful NFL quarterback. He may be more successful than Stafford or Sanchez, but he will not be a successful NFL quarterback. You offered to lay money, furt and I'll take you up on that. It'll be a good four years or so before we know, so name your stakes and timeline and I'm in.

[Duke]

My Steelers didn't need a lot in the draft, and they picked up a few interesting prospects, but nothing much to write home about, so I won't talk about them.

I'll talk about our local Bills instead. Now after they sent Jonathan Peters out on a rail, they're short a tackle. A good tackle. So did they draft any tackles? Nope, they drafted a couple of guards instead, start both of them, and hope they can make one of their current guards a tackle. We'll see if that works. Two rookie guards joining a line that wasn't too great before.

Everyone is so high on Aaron Maybin. I'm a Penn State fan and I watched all of their games last year, and I'm not feeling the love. I'll admit he has the skills but it never seemed like he had the drive. There were too many games where he looked very ordinary, where if he wasn't breaking through early he'd mail it in the rest of the game. I'd love to see him prove me wrong but when JoePa's coaching there's usually a reason why a guy as talented as he seems to be is only a one-year starter.

I like Shawn Nelson to start at tight end next year. A short-yardage passing game will help free up the deep threats the Bills have but can't use as much as needed.

[Really Not All That Bright]

White, in contrast, will get snaps this year as the wildcat QB, and in 2010 he will beat out Henne, taking over a young team that's in year 3 of a Parcells rebuild (but will have low expectations after missing playoffs in 2009).
I think White has the arm and accuracy to be an NFL quarterback. He's certainly no less accurate than Michael Vick. I don't think he'll beat out Henne, though. I see him more in the David Garrard mold- he'll have to ride a lot of pine and probably switch teams at least once before he gets a starting nod.
First, I'm not feeling the Patriot draft love that was evident all fucking day on ESPN. They traded down, got a lot of players, and some second round picks for next year. Yippee!!! I think it is a very valid approach, especially if you have a solid team and a great talent evaluation process. But did it deserve the ESPN Hype it got. No. Teams have been doing it for years.
But only the Patriots do it every year. Love them or hate them (and I hate them), their system is almost flawless.
And while Joe Burnett may develop at CB, I see him as Allan Rossum, a guy who returns kicks but not much more.
You're going to like Burnett a lot more as a cover corner than you will as a returner. He was a good (but not great) college returner, and he played in the MAC and C-USA, where everyone is a step slower. He's just not fast enough to be a big-time NFL return man.

However, he has tremendous instincts and closing speed and he's a sure tackler. He's not going to be able to keep up with Randy Moss on a fly pattern, but he'll be a tremendous zone corner at the NFL level. He would have been perfect for a Tampa 2 team, but I think he'll fit just as well in the Steelers' zone blitz deal. Think of him as your nickelback for the next 5 years, and maybe a legit #2 corner down the road.
You remember Groundhog Day with Bill Murray? Where the same thing happens over and over and over? That's Andy Reid's draft. He picked DeSean Jackson, I mean Jeremy Maclin. Then Brian Westbrook, I mean LeSean McCoy.
I was thinking the same thing about the Raiders. They only had one productive wideout last year- Johnnie Lee Higgins, who's an archetypal slot receiver. So they draft Heyward-Bey, who's... an archetypal slot receiver.

Then I realized that the Iggles did the same thing. Now you've got two really good slot receivers, plus a running back who likes to split out in the slot... I mean, what the hell, Andy Reid? Are you going to run five-wide sets on every play?

I don't know anything about McCoy, but I heard several people call him the second-best back in the draft- and at least you didn't waste a first-round pick on a backup running back, which seems to be the Next Big Thing in the NFL (and is utterly, utterly stupid, IMHO).

Sure, you "need two backs nowadays", as every pundit agrees, but if your first back is a Pro Bowler you can probably go ahead and use your first-round picks on something else. It's not like you're drafting "for the future"; you can pencil in a rookie as your starting running back on Day 1, unlike with other positions.
Exactly why I'm so hesitant to give horrible grades to teams that have done very well in the draft and why I'm disinclined to give the Lions anything more than a C.
I distinctly remember the astonishing heaping of praise they got after the Roy Williams/Kevin Jones draft ('05?). I realized pretty quickly that they got a great draft grade because they had two first-round picks and didn't do anything too stupid with them. By contrast, the Redskins got a bad grade that year because they didn't have any first-round picks.

I'm not happy with the Bucs' draft at all. Spending a first-round pick on a quarterback when you have four already on the roster is stupid. Spending a first round pick on a quarterback who wasn't very good in college is really stupid.

We have far more pressing needs: Will linebacker, under tackle, corner, left tackle, wide receiver... hell, pretty much every position except safety and running back.

I do like the Roy Miller pick- we should have addressed run defense in the first round, but doing it with our second pick (a third-rounder) is the next best thing, I guess. He adds some bulk upfront.

[gonzomax]

Stafford went to the same high school as Bobby Lane did. What more do you need to know? It is fate. Success is assured.

[Least Original User Name Ever]

The '05 draft was a good one for the Lions. Roy Williams and Kevin Jones were good players and were jetissoned for different reasons. I'm down with getting rid of Roy, for he was quickly becoming a malcontent, but not Kevin Jones.

[furt]

He won't get a fair shake, though. Just ask Doug Flutie.We'll have to see, but the Dolphins are saying he's gonna get a shot (http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/football/pro/dolphins/sfl-hyde-dolphins-nfl-draft-042909,0,293111.column).

Not a lot of defensive help, but the Eagles traded for Ellis Hobbs (between DeSean Jackson, Maclin, and Hobbs, I don't remember an Eagles team having this much firepower on special teams) and picked up CB Victor Harris, Who does returns, too. Reno Mahe is just a distant memory...

First, I'm not feeling the Patriot draft love that was evident all fucking day on ESPN. They traded down, got a lot of players, and some second round picks for next year. Yippee!!! I think it is a very valid approach, especially if you have a solid team and a great talent evaluation process. But did it deserve the ESPN Hype it got. No. Teams have been doing it for years.Some teams, some times, but nobody as much or as often. More often, the emphasis is on trading up to get that one big-name top-10 pick.

I don't think they needed any WRs this year. Moss, Galloway and Welker is a pretty good trio. Byrd is a project, but I'll trust Belichick knows what he's doing there.

And while Joe Burnett may develop at CB, I see him as Allan Rossum, a guy who returns kicks but not much more.I'm with RNATB: Burnett will be a quality nickel back and adequate return man.

And picking those nobodies left the Steelers with their gaping holes on their O Line, which, to me, is simply astounding (yes, I know they got Shipley. I mean GOOD O Linemen). You're a great team, that competes hard and has the best defense in the country, but your O Line sucks. So you draft two O Linemen, the same number of DT's and CBs as you got. On reflection, I think you're right here.

My evaluation of the Eagles draft highlights a very interesting point (interesting likely only to me, but hey!) about drafting. I really liked HOW the Eagles drafted, but I didn't always like WHO they drafted (if that makes any sense). The Eagles did a very good job of getting the best players available and for good value. Moving up for Maclin was, to me, a great choice, if you like Maclin. Unfortunately, I don't. But the STRATEGERY of moving up two spots to grab a highly rated guy with great value, is wonderful. It's just that you have to do it for the right guy. (This is the exact same position I'm in with the Packers trading up to get Matthews. A great strategic decision with great value, but is the guy worth it will be the big question). But I see these two as pretty different. The Eagles traded a 5th rounder to move up 2 slots; this has been a pretty regular Reid tactic: stockpile mid-late round picks, and use them to deal up a few spots to snag your guy. If you're wrong about the guy, all you're out is a 5th round pick that might not have made your team anyway.

What the Packers did was very different: they dealt three 2nd and 3rd round picks to move up a whole round. That's a hell of a lot. 2nd and 3rd rounders are guys you expect to make the team and possibly start. If Matthews is a star, it'll be worth it, and he and Raji alone could make this a good draft for them. But if he's not a star, I think it's a bad move. If they'd just kept the 3 picks, they'd probably have gotten at least one OK starter out of it


I also don't like McCoy, I think guys like him very rarely ever develop as Westbrook has. Unless you think lightning can strike twice and turn a scat back into a successful between the tackles runner, it's a questionable call. 5'11", 210 pounds is not a scatback. Looking over the rushing leaders from last year, I see DeAngelo Williams, Thomas Jones, Steve Slaton, Chris Johnson ... Especially since the Eagles aren't going to be running 15 dive plays a game,I'm not worried.

To a certain extent, I agree with RNATB about drafting RB early when you already have one, but:

1) Westbrook is already 30, and has had a lot of injuries. He misses time almost every year.
2) Reid's offense is more complex than most and takes awhile to pick up. AFAICR DeSean Jackson is the only rookie skill player who's ever been a major contributor.
3) They have essentially no other RBs on the roster.




Oh, and Hamlet: you're on with the bet. I'll come back later with the specifics.

[kidchameleon]

If the Cowboys felt like putting all their rookies on the field at once, they'd get a penalty for too many men on the field. I think this is some sort of shot gun approach, hoping to get a few good players with so many picks. I hope it works out, but I doubt we'll see much of these guys in 2009.

[Really Not All That Bright]

To a certain extent, I agree with RNATB about drafting RB early when you already have one, but:

1) Westbrook is already 30, and has had a lot of injuries. He misses time almost every year.
2) Reid's offense is more complex than most and takes awhile to pick up. AFAICR DeSean Jackson is the only rookie skill player who's ever been a major contributor.
3) They have essentially no other RBs on the roster.
I was speaking more generally of the "draft a backup with a 1st-round pick" practice. See Felix Jones, for example. I think using a second rounder is fine, and obviously improving RB depth is a bit more important to Philly than most teams.

[Darth Sensitive]

The tight end almost seems more like a blocking tight end than a tight end that can hit the zone seams and make defenses pay.

He's a great blocker - in today's O'Colly talking about the draft, they talked about him begging with the coaches to send a play his way.

A running play.

He does a good job of sealing and getting down field, and he's can catch and run too, even if his senior season was marred by injury (no TD catches :( c'mon Gundy!)

Beautiful run after catch (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slDfK0WzoOc&feature=related)

[Least Original User Name Ever]

He's a great blocker - in today's O'Colly talking about the draft, they talked about him begging with the coaches to send a play his way.

A running play.

He does a good job of sealing and getting down field, and he's can catch and run too, even if his senior season was marred by injury (no TD catches :( c'mon Gundy!)

Beautiful run after catch (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slDfK0WzoOc&feature=related)

Oh, I know. I've heard a ton about his blocking and I know he's a more than adequate receiver, but I just question that pick at that point. We'll see, though.

[Lord Ashtar]

I was watching the first round with my brother and a buddy of mine, and we cheered when Sanchez went to the Jets, because it meant that Danny Snyder had failed to get him. I think the rest of the Redskins draft was pretty good, but I'm very upset that they have been alienating Jason Campbell so much this offseason. He's as classy as they come, but he's probably seething inside. I expect he'll be playing elsewhere next year. Too bad.

[SenorBeef]

The '05 draft was a good one for the Lions. Roy Williams and Kevin Jones were good players and were jetissoned for different reasons

That was the '04 draft. I remember because Butch Davis, the greatest GM of all time, traded a 2nd round pick to move up one slot to #6 to select Winslow, letting the Lions get Williams at 7, who they were probably going to take at 6 anyway.


So the Browns. In exchange for moving from #5 to #17 they picked up #52 (2nd), DE Kenyan Coleman, QB Brett Ratliff, and S Abram Elam.

I think the Browns probably could've gotten more. I think draft picks are overvalued, I didn't even want the #5 slot (and the contract that it comes with) once Curry was gone, but this seems like a place you can really gouge a team that has their eyes set on a QB high in the first.

I was concerned that these were just Mangini's lackies. He's taken in some old Jets defensive players in free agency and he has a reputation for being a control freak and running a paranoid and secretive franchise. On the other hand, Mangini would know those players better than anyone, so maybe he values them more highly than Rex Ryan.

After a bit of reading, they seem like they weren't just throw ins, but quality players. Coleman was the starting DE on a 3-4 team that was #6 against the rush this year. Elam is a promising safety who made some big plays at the end of last year - we tried to sign him to an RFA offer sheet that was matched, so both teams think well of him. Ratliff is a developmental QB but apparently has shown a lot of promise in preseason action.

Overall, getting 5 players for the #5 pick instead of drafting Raji or Crabtree at the #5 contract is a pretty good deal.

From #17 they traded down 9 spots for a 6th rounder, and then 2 more spots for another 6th rounder. That's not "proper value" but if you're dead set on a guy you know will be available at #21, why not pick up anything you can and get him at a small contract anyway?

However, in the process, they passed up Jeremy Maclin who I thought would've been great value here, and a compliment to Braylon. And it's not as if they didn't feel the need for WRs because they drafted 2 in the second round.

But it seems pretty clear that they were dead set on Alex Mack, center, if they had a late first pick.

At first I wasn't happy - I thought he might be available at our #36 pick. But in retrospect, no way. He's clearly the #1 center prospect and the Bills drafted a center at #28. They'd have taken him. Even if they didn't, after reading some Steelers forums, it seems that their fans thought he was a lock if he lasted to #32, and that he'd be the savior of their O-line. So he definitely wouldn't have been there at #36. Still, a center at #21 must be an elite prospect.

It does shore up a major weakness since Fraley, while he's a classic blue caller hard working type of guy, is clearly past his prime and gets destroyed by competant nose tackles. We definitely needed a center. LT Joe Thomas, LG Eric Steinbach, and C Alex Mack is going to give us the best left-to-center line in the league. Not great value, but it fills a need well.

At #36 we took Brian Robiskie, who has pretty much hit his ceiling in college. His dad is a coach... WR coach and interim head coach, and I hope drafting his son doesn't mean we have to take him back. But it does mean that Robiskie does everything well - sharp route runner, good technique, good hands. But not that physically gifted. Still, he could be a good compliment to Braylon, he could take over the role that Joe Jurevicious served as #2 in 2007.

Still, you have to wonder if we'd be better off with WR Jeremy Maclin and C Unger at those picks instead.

Massaqoui and the rest I haven't read much about yet.

[HongKongFooey]

My Steelers didn't need a lot in the draft, and they picked up a few interesting prospects, but nothing much to write home about, so I won't talk about them.I agree but I'm pretty stoked about Frank Summers. Arians loves to use the FB in the passing game and Carey Davis was just O.K. at it. If Summers can learn to pick up blitzes at the pro level he'll be the starter soon. He won't be a household name or even the next LeRon McClain but he could shore up a spot where we've been lacking since Dan Kreider left. He could also compete with Mendenhall for the short-yardage role now that Russell has been released. If he has any Jerome-like qualities he'll have a nickname too - The Short Bus! :D

[Least Original User Name Ever]

Yep, the one time that Matt Millen ever fleeced anyone. I remember that, Senor Beef. I was vowing that I'd never be a Lions fan if they took "The Warrior".

[Hamlet]

Some teams, some times, but nobody as much or as often. More often, the emphasis is on trading up to get that one big-name top-10 pick.No, the ones you always hear about, the ones that get trumpeted, are the ones that are trade ups to get a one big name. But a majority of the trades are outside of the top 10, and out of the first round entirely. The fact that the Patriots do it is really no big deal to me. But it was more about the coverage of their draft, not the technique itself. As I said, it's a completely valid technique. I just didn't need to here about the genius of the organization's plan 85,000 times.

I'm with RNATB: Burnett will be a quality nickel back and adequate return man.We will see. He's certainly worth a shot in the 5th round.

But I see these two as pretty different. The Eagles traded a 5th rounder to move up 2 slots; this has been a pretty regular Reid tactic: stockpile mid-late round picks, and use them to deal up a few spots to snag your guy. If you're wrong about the guy, all you're out is a 5th round pick that might not have made your team anyway.

What the Packers did was very different: they dealt three 2nd and 3rd round picks to move up a whole round. That's a hell of a lot. 2nd and 3rd rounders are guys you expect to make the team and possibly start. If Matthews is a star, it'll be worth it, and he and Raji alone could make this a good draft for them. But if he's not a star, I think it's a bad move. If they'd just kept the 3 picks, they'd probably have gotten at least one OK starter out of it.It's only a matter of the amount of risk, not the strategy. The Packers had further to move up, so they had to pay more (or overpay more depending on your view). Again, as a strategy, I like moving up to grab someone who is falling and is great value where you trade up to. Both teams did that. The Packers' certainly took more of a risk, but it's the same idea. They weren't interested in Matthews in the teens or up to 22, but at 26, they made their move. And the Eagles weren't going to move up for Maclin to 9 or the teens, but when he fell and the value was there, they pulled the trigger.
5'11", 210 pounds is not a scatback. Looking over the rushing leaders from last year, I see DeAngelo Williams, Thomas Jones, Steve Slaton, Chris Johnson ... Especially since the Eagles aren't going to be running 15 dive plays a game,I'm not worried.Scatback is a state of mind, not a size/weight comparison. The admittedly few bits of McCoy I saw, and the general analysis I heard, was that he bounces stuff outside and doesn't do well between the tackles. Westbrook, however, does do that. He's not a pile mover, but he can hit the holes that open up on the inside or sneak through, McCoy is much more comfortable bounceing things outside. Williams and Jones aren't scatbacks like that, they certainly go up the middle. And Johnson has LenWhale to do he middle of the field carries and succeeds more outside the tackles.

Oh, and Hamlet: you're on with the bet. I'll come back later with the specifics.Maybe something along the lines of number of starts/passer rating type of thing over the years. I see Stafford floundering early (going to the Lions can kill a QB) and Sanchez competing more quickly (what with an O Line of actual real life NFL players), but, in the long run, I don't see White as a successful QB. Let me know what you think.

[Hamlet]

If the Cowboys felt like putting all their rookies on the field at once, they'd get a penalty for too many men on the field. I think this is some sort of shot gun approach, hoping to get a few good players with so many picks. I hope it works out, but I doubt we'll see much of these guys in 2009.The Cowboys shocked me. I really liked their draft last year (granted it was only 6 picks), but this year they seemed content to pick a bunch of guys who won't start. I actually liked their getting Roy Williams, I think he'll help them immensely and was a fine first round pick. But the actual draft, they traded down, gathered picks, and ... well they stunk. Almost every pick was a reach. Jason Williams is more an athlete/situational pass rusher than a 3 down linebacker, Brewster has good size, but not much else and will have to move inside, and McGee is a prospect. I have a huge man-crush on Victor Butler, when I thought he could be gotten in the 6th round. But not in the third. He's got too many questions. I also think the Mike Mickens pick in the 7th was outstanding value. And don't even get me started on drafting a kicker in the 5th round when you already have one of the best young kickers in the league.

It's like they set out to improve their pass rush and secondary, but decided to do it by getting sheer numbers rather than quality. I think Butler, McGee, and Mickins may actually become solid starters, but that's it and not for a few years.

[Hamlet]

PACKERS

As the ongoing draft conversation thread shows, I was all over the board. After a good night's sleep, and TT finally getting Jamon Meredith at 162, I'm absolutely thrilled with the Packers draft.

Here it is:

Round 1, Pick 9 (9) B.J. Raji DT 6'2" 337 Boston College

Raji is a bit of a risk (he missed a year with academic issues and had some marijuana problems in college), but he's got incredibly upside at a position of need for the Packers. His stock improved incredibly after the season, as he did extremely well at the Senior Bowl and combine, but he was still the anchor in a very good BC defense. I really like the pick, and I think he could be a stud.

Round 1, Pick 26 (26) (Trading up for their 2nd and 2 third round picks) Clay Matthews OLB 6'3" 240 Southern Cal

The Packers paid (and paid dearly) to move back into the bottom of the 1st round to grab a guy they just loved. Even though according to the "draft value chart" they overpaid for the pick, you have to consider that they had Matthews ranked much, much higher than 26. I love his hustle, his bloodlines, and his speed, but he's immature and inexperienced. I'm going to trust that TT and the Packers on this one, because the price was really high.

Round 4, Pick 9 (109) T.J. Lang OT 6'4" 316 Eastern Michigan

He's a guy who seemed to be rated a lot higher than I liked him. He's got good size, is strong as a bull, he did well against Larry English when they played, and he's versatile. But I just don't see anything special about the guy. He's like Sitton, Giancomini, Spitz, Barbre, or Preston (who we got in free agency) and the other guys we already have on our roster. He may develop into a solid RT, but doesn't have the skills to be a LT. Still, all the charts say he was good value, the Packers need some help on the O Line, and he's got a good attitude. He'll get a shot, but I honestly don't expect much from him. Hopefully, I'm wrong and we now have our starting RT for a deade. I'm just not seeing it.

Round 5, Pick 9 (145) Quinn Johnson FB 6'1" 246 LSU

Why did we pick him here, when there was better choices, both as players and at positions of need? (Meredith, Scott McKillop, James Casey, Victor Harris). He may very well be an upgrade over our current FBs, but he hasn't caught a lot of balls and averages 2 ypc, both of which knock him down on my list. Still, he's a big, bruising lead blocker with a great mean streak and he should help in short yardage situation. While it is nice to get a starter in the 5th round, I didn't see a whole lot of problems with their current FBs and there were other guys I liked. But, he's a good addition to the team, just not where I would have liked him picked.

Round 5, Pick 26 (162) (Got in trade to move up into the 1st round) Jamon Meredith OT 6'5" 304 South Carolina

I LOVED this draft. If I could marry this pick, I would. Meredith seriously underacheived as a senior, but he has the size, skills, quickness, and intelligence to be a successful Left Tackle, which puts him miles ahead of the rest of the draft picks available there. I thought he was well worth a third round pick, so to (finally) get him in the 5th was great value. I think he has a very high ceiling (starting LTs in the NFL aren't easy to find, let alone in the 5th round) and, even if he can't cut it as a LT, he can work at any other position on the O Line. He's an improvement on any backup on the roster already.

Round 6, Pick 9 (182) Jarius Wynn DE 6'3" 275 Georgia

Big meh. I suppose, based on how he ended the season, he has some upside, but he's too small (for now) for a DE in a 3-4 and has little to no production against top teams. Practice squad guy at best. Give him a few years and maybe, but doubt it. I would have much rathered grabbing a blocking TE (Bear Pascoe), a speedy RB (Cedric Peerman), or a big body (Myron Pryor) to solidify the needs of the team rather than a huge project.

Round 6, Pick 14 (187) Brandon Underwood CB 6'1" 198 Cincinnati

Another wasted pick. He's a classic athlete fuckup who doesn't get it. But, if he does, he could develop into a solid dime/backup. I don't think he has the head to play in the NFL, nor does he hit hard enough to be a solid Safety. All the guys I listed above should have been considered instead.

Round 7, Pick 9 (218) Brad Jones OLB 6'3" 232 Colorado

I like his measurables, and it is a position of need so I like it. He's fast, and may very well develop into a solid nickel LB, or pass rush specialist. He also has a good attitude ( I think). Good enough for the 7th round.


All in all, the Packers' draft will come down to the top 2, Raji and Matthews. As it stands today, I like the draft, but if Raji doesn't get it in the NFL, or if Matthews is slow to develop, it will look bad. But I liked what TT did trading up to get a first round talent, and then using the later rounds to address problems on their O Line. I would have liked another pass rush guy, a blocking TE, and maybe a punter, but still, the Packers had a great draft and I'm really excited to see how it pans out.

[lieu]

I think your assessment of the Cowboys was pretty good, Hamlet. I watched all day Saturday and was completely disgusted to see them trade down and not make a single pick. Didn't get to watch yesterday but have been reading up as much as possible on the selections. In short, there's a possibility we've really improved a couple of elements in Special Teams. Oh joy.

[5-HT]

Stafford is overrated, heading to a wasteland, and Detroit didn't improve their o-line; a young QB needs a line more than he needs receivers IMO. There were good OTs on the board in the 2nd round.

The lions didn't draft any receivers though so what are you talking about? Are you counting the kick returner as a receiver, I kind of doubt he'll being seeing any non-special teams play this year barring injury.

[5-HT]

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=4105406

what an idiot Mike Leach is. Crabtree didn't go higher because the raider's made a bad pick, it's not like he fell out of the first round.

And while taking the A&M QB was also a questionable move, that doesn't mean Graham Harrell's success in your gimmicky offense makes him a pro prospect.

[Hamlet]

And while taking the A&M QB was also a questionable move, that doesn't mean Graham Harrell's success in your gimmicky offense makes him a pro prospect.Still, This: ""I'm happy for Stephen McGee," Leach told The Dallas Morning News. "The Dallas Cowboys like him more than his coaches at A&M did" is damn funny.

[MOIDALIZE]

Graham Harrell is no more of a pro prospect than Chase Daniels, who didn't get drafted either.

[5-HT]

Still, This: ""I'm happy for Stephen McGee," Leach told The Dallas Morning News. "The Dallas Cowboys like him more than his coaches at A&M did" is damn funny.

no argument there.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

The Bengals had a great draft, I don't care what anyone says. I'm especially excited to see Chase Collins play as a pass-catching TE for Carson Palmer. That guy's college highlight reel is amazing.

And talk about a football pedigree!

[5-HT]

The Delmas pick was already my favorite of the Lions' draft, but after watching some clips of him I like it even more.

[furt]

The lions didn't draft any receivers though so what are you talking about? Are you counting the kick returner as a receiver, I kind of doubt he'll being seeing any non-special teams play this year barring injury.Their second pick was a receiver: tight ends catch passes. Pettigrew is probably their second-best target. And Derrick Williams will most assuredly be playing some WR. He's one of their top 4 now, and may be the third WR by midseason.

[5-HT]

Their second pick was a receiver: tight ends catch passes. Pettigrew is probably their second-best target. And Derrick Williams will most assuredly be playing some WR. He's one of their top 4 now, and may be the third WR by midseason.

Tight ends catch passes, yes, but they also block. This particular TE, while he has good receiving skills, drew rave reviews for his elite blocking.

[furt]

I think your assessment of the Cowboys was pretty good, Hamlet. I watched all day Saturday and was completely disgusted to see them trade down and not make a single pick. Didn't get to watch yesterday but have been reading up as much as possible on the selections. In short, there's a possibility we've really improved a couple of elements in Special Teams. Oh joy.I honestly think that after taking a lot of criticism for being a publicity whore, and after purging all the "personalities" in the offseason, Jones was trying to do some kind of ostentatiously humble draft. "Look, we're not seduced by the lure of big names! We're drafting for quality depth! We're so unglamorous, we're thinking about special teams!"

[furt]

Tight ends catch passes, yes, but they also block. This particular TE, while he has good receiving skills, drew rave reviews for his elite blocking.You don't get drafted in the first round unless you do both. Yes, he's a great run blocker; he'll also catch 50 balls.

I like the Pettigrew pick, and Williams, too -- I just think they also needed a couple o-linemen. They could have gone all offense, IMO.

[5-HT]

You don't get drafted in the first round unless you do both. Yes, he's a great run blocker; he'll also catch 50 balls.

I like the Pettigrew pick, and Williams, too -- I just think they also needed a couple o-linemen. They could have gone all offense, IMO.

The draft could have been twice as long and the Lion's wouldn't have been able to address all their needs. their needs on defense are legion as well. I'm just glad they didn't listen to the fans, who overate both Maualuga and the MLB position in general, when its clear that safety has passed it by as the leader of the defense.

[Hamlet]

The Bengals had a great draft, I don't care what anyone says.I thought they did very well too. They took a couple players who were falling below their "conventional wisdom" spots (Rey I'mnotspellinghislastname, Michael Johnson), and took a chance of Andre Smith (I'm leery of the guy, but I loved his comparison of his QB to his mother, and nobody hits his mother). They really could have hit a home run in their first three picks of this draft. I'm not sold on Johnson as a NFL DE, but I really like Luigs (great value too). I'm not sure any of the later picks are going to develop, though they were at positions of need. Good, possibly great draft.

I'm especially excited to see Chase Collins play as a pass-catching TE for Carson Palmer. That guy's college highlight reel is amazing.So amazing that you forgot his last name? Chase Coffman. His Dad was a Packer.

[furt]

Maybe something along the lines of number of starts/passer rating type of thing over the years. I see Stafford floundering early (going to the Lions can kill a QB) and Sanchez competing more quickly (what with an O Line of actual real life NFL players), but, in the long run, I don't see White as a successful QB. Let me know what you think.I don't think stats are the way to go. I think a better way to go would be simply to ask, in December of 2011 (end of their 3rd year), which QB you'd rather have for a game at that moment.

If we can't agree, we'll ask for opinions from an objective source of your choice. I'd prefer one of the Football Outsiders experts, but we can submit our case to any other expert you choose, or even poll the SDMB or He Hate Me league members.

Remember the conditions in the OP:

1) The whole thing is barring serious injury on White's part. If he blows an ACL, the bet's off.

2) As I said in the OP, White will be one of the two best QBs. Stafford OR Sanchez OR Freeman might be better, but not any 2 of them. I'd prefer to keep it among these 4 ... but my OP did say "in the draft," so if you wanna hold me to that I'll run the risk of Stephen McGee being the next Tom Brady.

3) The best is about who will be best after 3 seasons: on a neutral field with neutral teams and with the ability to run any NFL system you choose, which QB would you most want. Yet-untapped potential, at that point, means zero.

4) Any value White has as a WR/RB/KR is irrelevant. Value he adds by running from the QB position does count, and the ability to run the wildcat does count; however, one can't imagine "if the Dolphins ran the wildcat 35 times a game ..." (unless they actually are running it something like that often).


You pick the stakes. Cash is fine ($50?), or perhaps a quality bottle of spirits.

[5-HT]

I have a feeling teams are going to discover that the wildcat offense is now completely worthless now that defenses have had a year to gameplan for it.

[furt]

I have a feeling teams are going to discover that the wildcat offense is now completely worthless now that defenses have had a year to gameplan for it.If they run the same plays as last year, yes.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

I thought they did very well too. They took a couple players who were falling below their "conventional wisdom" spots (Rey I'mnotspellinghislastname, Michael Johnson), and took a chance of Andre Smith (I'm leery of the guy, but I loved his comparison of his QB to his mother, and nobody hits his mother). They really could have hit a home run in their first three picks of this draft. I'm not sold on Johnson as a NFL DE, but I really like Luigs (great value too). I'm not sure any of the later picks are going to develop, though they were at positions of need. Good, possibly great draft.

So amazing that you forgot his last name? Chase Coffman. His Dad was a Packer.

Whoops! Call me forgetful in the name of being giddy!

[Omniscient]

First and foremost I need to keep reminding myself that this draft class includes Jay Cutler, who would easily have been the BPA and 1st overall pick all things being equal. Considering the Bears lacked a Day One pick and that the 49ers and Seahawks turned their second rounder into a 2010 first rounder, which the Bears also gave for Cutler, you could make a case that the Bears gave their 1st, 2nd and 3rd round picks for Cutler. That's a steep, but fair, price for a franchise QB. My frustration level is off the charts with this draft, but if I keep reminding myself they landed a franchise QB and ultimately improved the team in the long run regardless of what we get from these other players it calms my anger.

Lets look at who we added today:

Jarron Gilbert, DT, San Jose State (3rd round, 4th pick - #68 overall)
I really like this player and I think he was the BPA at that point. His physical skills are simply impressive and the highlight videos out there, aside from the "pool jump" and 635lb squat, show him getting off the ball incredibly fast and putting OGs on their backs. He dominated some players in this draft at the Shrine Game. He's incredibly strong and fast and at 6'5" tall and only 288 lbs he can stand to add perhaps 40 pounds of bulk and maintain most of his quickness. His father was an NFL player which I always appreciate from a work ethic and football intelligence standpoint.

The only catch is that he plays the same position as Tommie Harris and is a pure 1-gap DT. You can never have too many guys like that and they are really hard to find in the draft, but if Gilbert gets a ton of playing time right away it'll probably be because Harris still hasn't snapped out of his funk. As a part of a rotation or if Marinelli and Lovie find ways to get both he and Harris on the field together in passing situations he could be a great addition. But....we probably had much more pressing needs at other positions.

Juaquin Iglesias, WR, Oklahoma (3rd round, 35th pick - #99 overall)
I hate this player. The Bears clearly needed a WR who can play right away, this is no secret and I and everyone else have been screaming about it for months. More importantly they needed the right kind of receiver. They need a guy who can be a force in the Red Zone. They need a guy who can beat a physical press coverage. They need a guy with reliable hands and size to survive over the middle. Iglesias has good hands, like 80% of WRs in this draft, and that's it. He's not big, he's not fast, he's not particularly productive. He played in a conference that defended the pass as well as my local co-ed rec league. I just can't envision a scenario where this guy makes a difference on the field, he has back-up written all over him, and on a team as talent poor as the Bears at the position that's pretty sad.

I wish I could say that there were other options on the board at that time, but there weren't. I don't know if the Bears wanted this guy or if they simply had to settle for him. There were much better WRs and Safeties coming off the board in the picks before them and there wasn't a guy left that I clearly preferred. It was just a bad position to be in and since it was a compensatory selection they couldn't trade it to move up and get a guy like Barden or Turner.

Henry Melton, DE, Texas (4th round, 5th pick - #105 overall)
This is a baffling pick. The guy is a converted RB and watching his highlight videos he appears to be a hell of a lot better runner than a pass rusher. I like his size/speed ratio but he uses his hands poorly, has short arms and gets stoned at the line by bigger tackles with good technique. This guy needs a ton of work to learn the position and the Bears just don't have the time to develop him.

I understand that we needed to do something about the DE position with all 3 of our current rotation's contracts ending next year and our pass rush going limp last season, but Melton? At the top of the 4th? Sidbury would have been a much better choice at this point and Melton probably could have been gotten a couple rounds later. Will Davis also would have been a decent fall back if they missed out on him. I have to assume that this is another example of Lovie's idiotic Texas bias screwing us over. This is a fantastically bad draft for 4-3 DEs so they should have just waited on the position and attacked it next year.

D.J. Moore CB, Vanderbilt (4th round, 19th pick - #119 overall)
I like this guys talent, I worry about his size and the rationale for drafting him. I'm slowly talking myself into this pick though, just about every draftnik is praising the selection as a steal. I'm a little more skeptical considering his small size and the fact that so many other teams in need of a CB passed on him, but the Bears do know how to draft cornerbacks. We don't play a lot of press coverage or bump and run so his size will be somewhat protected and the Tampa 2 help should guard against the deep jump ball. In the end, my biggest question is if there was a prospect who could play FS available here. Moore would have to add considerable strength to have a chance at that and his height might preclude it completely.

From a need standpoint this is similar to the Gilbert pick. We've got players at CB but it's a position that is generally considered a constant need and a challenge to help in free agency, so getting players in the draft before you need them is wise. Vasher's stock has fallen and Peanut Tillman is getting older and has had injury troubles. Danieal Manning might be stealing Vasher's spot in camp this year and Moore is probably penciled in as a Nickelback and Tillman's future replacement. Again, if Moore is getting a ton of playing time it means that either Vasher, Tillman or Manning had failed considerably.

Johnny Knox, WR. Abilene Christian (5th round, 4th pick - #140 overall)
Knox is a decent value here and was highly rated following his workouts. There's plenty of concern that he's a workout warrior and his level of competition was sub-par to say the least. He's got elite speed and outstanding hands, he tracks the ball well and shows terrific adjustments to the ball in flight. He also has returned punts and kicks which might be of use if Hester continues to struggle at balancing return and receiving duties. His size and durability are worrisome and he won't give much help blocking, he could struggle to release against the press.

This pick is exactly like the Gilbert and Moore picks. A guy with talent and upside who simply plays a position where we don't immediately need him. I'm a big fan of speed on offense, something the Bears have had a dearth of for as long as I can remember, and Knox has that in spades. He projects as a slot/flanker and that's precisely where Devin Hester fits. With Hester's tendency to get banged up and still uncertain ceiling as a deep threat having a fall-back is wise, but it's frustrating as hell to see the Bears drafting back-ups for our best players as opposed to drafting potential starters as weak positions. Practically I can't see any way Hester and Knox see the field at the same time so if Knox gets playing time that means he's replacing Hester....see a trend here?

Marcus Freeman, OLB, Ohio State (5th round, 18th pick - #154 overall)
An OLB prospect who played the Will and Sam positions on a very good OSU defense. He's got prototypical speed but needs to add a little bulk to survive in a 4-3 scheme. He is a reliable tackler and gets into coverage fairly well. He was the most important cog in the #1 Buckeye defense according to his coaching staff and his character and smarts are first rate. He can provide depth at multiple LB positions, something the Bears are in need of. Many people had him projected in the late 2nd or early 3rd rounds so getting him in the 5th seems like a steal; though that cuts both ways raising the question of why he slid.

Freeman was at his best playing on the weak side in college which is where Lance Briggs is entrenched. Prior to the draft he was repeatedly compared to Briggs because of his similar size, speed and skills. If we got a player who develops as well as Briggs did that's fantastic, but considering Briggs is signed to a long, pricey deal how does Freeman get his way on the field? Perhaps he'll win a spot on the strong side where we have a competition but I'm not sure Freeman has the size and strength for that position (similar to Hillenmeyer ironically) or the ability to shed blockers. Again, we might have landed an elite back-up and future starter but not where we needed him.

Al Afalava, S, Oregon State (6th round, 17th pick - #190 overall)
Finally the Bears address the dismal situation at Safety and they get a....Strong Safety. Wonderful. Afalava has a nice combination of size, power and ball skills. He gives a little on the speed front but in a Tampa 2 he shouldn't be asked to run with WRs too often. He has a reputation as a big hitter but people seem to be overlooking the fact that his tackling skills suck. He lowers his head and doesn't break down, he tries to blow players up and strip the ball before wrapping and getting the carrier to the ground. Bigger athletic NFL players will bounce off him or juke him if he doesn't learn to focus on tackling as opposed to hitting.

The Bears are in desperate need of a FS unless you think Josh Bullocks, a guy released by the worst pass defense in football and star of several mocking highlight reels on YouTube, can solidify the position. They supposedly expect Afalava to move into the position eventually but he doesn't appear to have the coverage skills needed. His college experience and skills make him a fit at SS where we already have Payne and Steltz, two guys who also seem to think tackling and plowing into things are the same thing. If I have to watch another guy give up a big play trying to get on Jacked Up! I'm going to throw something at my TV. They are all young and have athletic ability. Maybe between the 3 of them we can field one reliable, tackling SS this year but they all will need some coaching up from Lovie.

Lance Louis, OG, San Diego State (7th round, 37th pick - #246 overall)
This guy is a really cool prospect on paper. He played Guard, Tackle and Tight End and even projects as a goalline Fullback. He's 300+ pounds but still ran a 4.68 40 and managed an impressive 30 reps on the bench. I love his physical make-up and his potential to play multiple positions. He needs to develop more skills and the Bears have to make up their minds on what they want him to do.

Early talk has Lovie expecting to use him primarily as a TE. That's easily the Bears deepest position with Clark, Olsen and Kellen Davis but they are all pass catchers and not in-line blockers. So adding Louis as a TE for use on running downs and short yardage is a pretty solid proposition and his experience as a OL should indicate elite blocking ability as a TE. I'm sure that if the Bears OGs suffer injuries or flame out badly Louis could be pressed into service and it's nice to have that kind of flexibility. Generally I like the pick but it means that Davis, who showed some real positive things in camp and preseason last year, will probably end up being cut which is a waste. I don't think the Bears are likely to carry 4 TEs and I don't think Davis has the speed to transition into that tall rangy WR we desperately need.

Derek Kinder, WR, Pittsburgh (7th round, 42nd pick - #251 overall)
The Bears are hoping they found a steal here. He was a 2006 Biletnikoff semi-finalist as a Junior prior to a ACL injury. He doesn't seem to have fully regained his speed but he has great hands and runs good routes. Apparently he was impressive at the Pitt Pro Day. His size is sub-par and you have to wonder why his red-shirt Senior season was a disappointment.

He is another 6-foot WR with marginal speed. I suppose he'll press Earl Bennett and Iglesias in camp and in the 7th round you don't have high expectations but even if the guy turns out to be a steak his ceiling isn't very high. If he makes the roster it means the other players failed miserably.

[magnusblitz]

I was thinking the same thing about the Raiders. They only had one productive wideout last year- Johnnie Lee Higgins, who's an archetypal slot receiver. So they draft Heyward-Bey, who's... an archetypal slot receiver.

Well, I definitely thought that Higgins was close to Maclin's mold, which is why I didn't feel bad about passing on Maclin. I would've preferred Crabtree though. You want guys who can CATCH first and run second, not the other way around. I think it'll be apparent fairly quickly whether Heyward-Bey is a good pick or another Troy Williamson.

I'm not too upset about the Mike Mitchell pick, in the end. Seems like a good kid with a good head on his shoulders, hits like a beast, good size. He'll work hard, and he's got even more motivation after all the "73rd best safety in the draft" stuff.

As far as the draft in general, I think all the quarterbacks taken in the first round will be horrible busts. Stafford has the best chance to level out as an average journeyman. I can't understand all the love for Sanchez. The guy started one season and never really impressed during it - it's easy to look good when you've got 5 minutes in the pocket to throw to guys open by 20 yards. And Freeman was a fourth-round prospect who suddenly morphed into a first-rounder when everyone saw just how weak the draft class for QBs was.

I'm not sure if Pat White will ever make it as a classic QB, but I think there's a good chance that his career will turn out to be a more productive one (perhaps at a different position) than the three QBs taken before him.

[Really Not All That Bright]

Jarron Gilbert, DT, San Jose State (3rd round, 4th pick - #68 overall)
I really like this player and I think he was the BPA at that point. His physical skills are simply impressive and the highlight videos out there, aside from the "pool jump" and 635lb squat, show him getting off the ball incredibly fast and putting OGs on their backs. He dominated some players in this draft at the Shrine Game. He's incredibly strong and fast and at 6'5" tall and only 288 lbs he can stand to add perhaps 40 pounds of bulk and maintain most of his quickness. His father was an NFL player which I always appreciate from a work ethic and football intelligence standpoint.
He was a 5-technique end in college, and he's got long arms and is blazingly fast at 290ish. I don't know why the Bears are moving him to tackle; he's not a three-down player anyway.
Well, I definitely thought that Higgins was close to Maclin's mold, which is why I didn't feel bad about passing on Maclin. I would've preferred Crabtree though. You want guys who can CATCH first and run second, not the other way around. I think it'll be apparent fairly quickly whether Heyward-Bey is a good pick or another Troy Williamson.

I'm not too upset about the Mike Mitchell pick, in the end. Seems like a good kid with a good head on his shoulders, hits like a beast, good size. He'll work hard, and he's got even more motivation after all the "73rd best safety in the draft" stuff.
That was exactly my thought on Crabtree- with a quarterback as scattershot as Russell, you want the guy that will catch anything thrown within five yards, and that's Crabtree.

Heyward-Bey is the opposite- he'll catch 40% of the passes thrown his way, but even if he turns a quarter of those into touchdowns, I can't see him scoring more than 6 times a year... and no wideout turns a quarter of his catches into touchdowns.

Mitchell doesn't seem like a bad guy, or anything; it's just that there's absolutely no reason to draft him in round 2 when he was still going to be there in Round 5. Drafting Heyward-Bey 20 picks early is one thing, but drafting Mitchell 120 spots early is another.

[Hamlet]

I don't think stats are the way to go. I think a better way to go would be simply to ask, in December of 2011 (end of their 3rd year), which QB you'd rather have for a game at that moment.

If we can't agree, we'll ask for opinions from an objective source of your choice. I'd prefer one of the Football Outsiders experts, but we can submit our case to any other expert you choose, or even poll the SDMB or He Hate Me league members.

Remember the conditions in the OP:

1) The whole thing is barring serious injury on White's part. If he blows an ACL, the bet's off.

2) As I said in the OP, White will be one of the two best QBs. Stafford OR Sanchez OR Freeman might be better, but not any 2 of them. I'd prefer to keep it among these 4 ... but my OP did say "in the draft," so if you wanna hold me to that I'll run the risk of Stephen McGee being the next Tom Brady.

3) The best is about who will be best after 3 seasons: on a neutral field with neutral teams and with the ability to run any NFL system you choose, which QB would you most want. Yet-untapped potential, at that point, means zero.

4) Any value White has as a WR/RB/KR is irrelevant. Value he adds by running from the QB position does count, and the ability to run the wildcat does count; however, one can't imagine "if the Dolphins ran the wildcat 35 times a game ..." (unless they actually are running it something like that often).This really doesn't sound like a "Pat White is a good quarterback" bet, but rather a "every quarterback in this draft sucks" bet. Maybe it's just me, but if you think Pat White is a NFL caliber quarterback, lets bet that.

But, in the interest of the challenge, how about this. On Tuesday, December 20th, we figure out, either by you or me agreeing, or by poll, the answer to the question: "which QB of the 2009 draft class, would you rather have for a game, if healthy, at that moment." If Pat White finishes number one or two, you win. If not, I win. That way, I'm covered if Sanchez or Stafford is injured (even temporarily). I also get the undrafted free agents, and the "Pat White sucks, BUT he sucks a little bit less than every other person in that draft year" doesn't count as a win for you.

I'm a fan of Jameson's and Bombay Sapphire. How about a nice bottle of spirits of your choice for the victor?

[Really Not All That Bright]

What if White running the Wildcat results in a complete paradigm shift in the NFL which renders the quarterback obsolete and the QB/HB hybrid becomes the most important player on the field?

;)

[Omniscient]

He was a 5-technique end in college, and he's got long arms and is blazingly fast at 290ish. I don't know why the Bears are moving him to tackle; he's not a three-down player anyway.

Well, they aren't really moving him, they just play a 4-3 and don't use a 5-technique End in their schemes. He doesn't project as a 4-3 end playing a 7-technique or 8-technique which is what Bears DEs do most of the time. He doesn't really have 2-gap skills and they ask one of their DTs to play a 1-gap scheme. Gilbert can be a 1-gap player as either a 5-technique or a 3-technique which is where Harris plays. Almost all 3-4 DEs transition to 1-gap DTs in a 4-3 and never a edge rusher, I'm not sure why he'd be any different. As noted the Bears have 3 guys with expiring deals on the edge and if Gilbert shows that he fits better on the edge than inside I'm sure they'll be eager to try him out there. They've moved Idonije from inside to outside and Gilbert might find his way on the field that way if Harris stays on the field. They'd said that the drafting of Gilbert is intended to push Harris and make him increase his effort level so there's not much question of where he'll start working at the outset.

[Hamlet]

First and foremost I need to keep reminding myself that this draft class includes Jay Cutler, who would easily have been the BPA and 1st overall pick all things being equal. Considering the Bears lacked a Day One pick and that the 49ers and Seahawks turned their second rounder into a 2010 first rounder, which the Bears also gave for Cutler, you could make a case that the Bears gave their 1st, 2nd and 3rd round picks for Cutler. That's a steep, but fair, price for a franchise QB. My frustration level is off the charts with this draft, but if I keep reminding myself they landed a franchise QB and ultimately improved the team in the long run regardless of what we get from these other players it calms my anger.Whatever gets you through the night. The Bears gave up 2 first round draft picks, a third rounder, AND their starting QB for a quarterback with a losing record. I know you and I have differed on Cutler since the moment he declared for the draft, but we will see. Whether he's a stud or a bust or, most likely, somewhere in between, he comes at a high cost to the Bears. But he is certainly part of this "draft class".

Lets look at who we added today:

Jarron Gilbert, DT, San Jose State (3rd round, 4th pick - #68 overall)
I really like this player and I think he was the BPA at that point. His physical skills are simply impressive and the highlight videos out there, aside from the "pool jump" and 635lb squat, show him getting off the ball incredibly fast and putting OGs on their backs. He dominated some players in this draft at the Shrine Game. He's incredibly strong and fast and at 6'5" tall and only 288 lbs he can stand to add perhaps 40 pounds of bulk and maintain most of his quickness. His father was an NFL player which I always appreciate from a work ethic and football intelligence standpoint.

The only catch is that he plays the same position as Tommie Harris and is a pure 1-gap DT. You can never have too many guys like that and they are really hard to find in the draft, but if Gilbert gets a ton of playing time right away it'll probably be because Harris still hasn't snapped out of his funk. As a part of a rotation or if Marinelli and Lovie find ways to get both he and Harris on the field together in passing situations he could be a great addition. But....we probably had much more pressing needs at other positions.I like Jarron Gilbert as a project, and he's good value in the third. He is so incredibly raw, though, it's impossible to
say he's just a one gap DT. Most of the stuff I've heard plays up his versatility, whether as a DE or a DT. He's an athlete, and need some (OK A LOT, of training) but he was a fine pick there.
Juaquin Iglesias, WR, Oklahoma (3rd round, 35th pick - #99 overall)
I hate this player. The Bears clearly needed a WR who can play right away, this is no secret and I and everyone else have been screaming about it for months. More importantly they needed the right kind of receiver. They need a guy who can be a force in the Red Zone. They need a guy who can beat a physical press coverage. They need a guy with reliable hands and size to survive over the middle. Iglesias has good hands, like 80% of WRs in this draft, and that's it. He's not big, he's not fast, he's not particularly productive. He played in a conference that defended the pass as well as my local co-ed rec league. I just can't envision a scenario where this guy makes a difference on the field, he has back-up written all over him, and on a team as talent poor as the Bears at the position that's pretty sad.God it pains me to defend a Bear's pick, but Iglesias, while he has a low ceiling, is a good compliment to that piece of crap you guys have the balls to pretend is a #1 WR, Devin Hester. I think he'll be a fine #2 WR, who is able to get separation in the NFL by running good routes, using his body, and having strong hands. But, just to help you guys out, Earl Bennett will be better than Hester.

IHenry Melton, DE, Texas (4th round, 5th pick - #105 overall)
This is a baffling pick. The guy is a converted RB and watching his highlight videos he appears to be a hell of a lot better runner than a pass rusher. I like his size/speed ratio but he uses his hands poorly, has short arms and gets stoned at the line by bigger tackles with good technique. This guy needs a ton of work to learn the position and the Bears just don't have the time to develop him.Agreed. He's got practice squad written all over him.

D.J. Moore CB, Vanderbilt (4th round, 19th pick - #119 overall)He was highly thought of prior to the draft, so, according to the draftniks, he was good value when picked. I don't like him, but maybe the Bears will.

Marcus Freeman, OLB, Ohio State (5th round, 18th pick - #154 overall)
An OLB prospect who played the Will and Sam positions on a very good OSU defense. He's got prototypical speed but needs to add a little bulk to survive in a 4-3 scheme. He is a reliable tackler and gets into coverage fairly well. He was the most important cog in the #1 Buckeye defense according to his coaching staff and his character and smarts are first rate. He can provide depth at multiple LB positions, something the Bears are in need of. Many people had him projected in the late 2nd or early 3rd rounds so getting him in the 5th seems like a steal; though that cuts both ways raising the question of why he slid.He slid because his play isn't up to his measurables. He should have been a dominant LB, but he never was. But, to be honest, at that point in the draft, he was well worth a pick.

The rest of the Bear's draft was a bunch of guys I don't like, nor do I think they'll be NFL players. They did pick guys with some upside (Louis may be a force at TE which is stupid because you guys already have two good TEs), so if you're patient, they may come around. I'm not seeing it though. This draft was about Jay Cutler and how he will do. And the Bears didn't help him out much with their draft.

Good Luck. I'm sure that Cutler will be happy to see Raji and Matthews bearing down on him as they run past the Bears pathetic O Line that they, for whatever reason that I can't figure out, refused to upgrade in the draft. Should be a fun 2009/2010 football season.

[Omniscient]

I like Jarron Gilbert as a project, and he's good value in the third. He is so incredibly raw, though, it's impossible to say he's just a one gap DT. Most of the stuff I've heard plays up his versatility, whether as a DE or a DT. He's an athlete, and need some (OK A LOT, of training) but he was a fine pick there.
If Gilbert ends up as a 2-gap player he'll be the lightest one since the 70s. At 288 pounds and with that kind of speed and quickness it's safe to say he won't be a 2-gap player. The Bears tend to do some silly and baffling things with personnel (see: Hester at the X) but trying to make him a 2-gap guy would take the cake. He works nicely because the Bears play one 1-gap DT and one 2-gap DT and if he transitions to end that works too since they often play one DE in a 6-technique where being an over sized DE is an advantage.

God it pains me to defend a Bear's pick, but Iglesias, while he has a low ceiling, is a good compliment to that piece of crap you guys have the balls to pretend is a #1 WR, Devin Hester. I think he'll be a fine #2 WR, who is able to get separation in the NFL by running good routes, using his body, and having strong hands. But, just to help you guys out, Earl Bennett will be better than Hester.
You want him? You can have him for Lang straight up.

I agree he'll probably get playing time considering the steaming pile of shit we serve up as WRs but that isn't much of a compliment. Iglesias actually would pencil in as a #3 WR, essentially a Y. We'll probably be lining up Bennett as the X on the weak side with Hester as the Z on the strong side. We need to improve on Rasheid Davis and Iglesias should win the job there.

The rest of the Bear's draft was a bunch of guys I don't like, nor do I think they'll be NFL players. They did pick guys with some upside (Louis may be a force at TE which is stupid because you guys already have two good TEs), so if you're patient, they may come around. I'm not seeing it though. This draft was about Jay Cutler and how he will do. And the Bears didn't help him out much with their draft.

The Bears run a ton of 2 TE sets and Clark is getting long in the tooth, we're definitely going to have 3 on the roster and we really don't have a blocker at all. We struggled moving the pile all year in short yardage (and were too fucking stupid to use the QB Dive) and Louis should go a long way to helping that. The 7th round is the right time to add a specialist like that and the fact that he could end up as a Guard is pure gravy. He's a smart pick who I think has a very good chance of making the roster.

Good Luck. I'm sure that Cutler will be happy to see Raji and Matthews bearing down on him as they run past the Bears pathetic O Line that they, for whatever reason that I can't figure out, refused to upgrade in the draft. Should be a fun 2009/2010 football season.

Raji worries me a lot. The guy could be a beast, Matthews not so much at all. But, I'll take solace in the fact the Pack defense sucked ass last year and the switch to the 3-4 almost certainly will have some bumps in the road and some players playing out of position all year.

[Really Not All That Bright]

The Bears run a ton of 2 TE sets and Clark is getting long in the tooth, we're definitely going to have 3 on the roster and we really don't have a blocker at all. We struggled moving the pile all year in short yardage (and were too fucking stupid to use the QB Dive) and Louis should go a long way to helping that. The 7th round is the right time to add a specialist like that and the fact that he could end up as a Guard is pure gravy. He's a smart pick who I think has a very good chance of making the roster.
You can have Gilmore back. We gave him a silly contract for a blocking TE, and he did jack last season.

[Omniscient]

Round 1, Pick 9 (9) B.J. Raji DT 6'2" 337 Boston College

Raji is a bit of a risk (he missed a year with academic issues and had some marijuana problems in college), but he's got incredibly upside at a position of need for the Packers. His stock improved incredibly after the season, as he did extremely well at the Senior Bowl and combine, but he was still the anchor in a very good BC defense. I really like the pick, and I think he could be a stud.

He's going to be great. I hate to say it and I hope he turns out to hate the cold or something because the Pack haven't really had a guy inside that worried me since Gilbert Brown and he didn't really threaten the QB. The new OGs on our roster had better buckle down.

Round 1, Pick 26 (26) (Trading up for their 2nd and 2 third round picks) Clay Matthews OLB 6'3" 240 Southern Cal

The Packers paid (and paid dearly) to move back into the bottom of the 1st round to grab a guy they just loved. Even though according to the "draft value chart" they overpaid for the pick, you have to consider that they had Matthews ranked much, much higher than 26. I love his hustle, his bloodlines, and his speed, but he's immature and inexperienced. I'm going to trust that TT and the Packers on this one, because the price was really high.

I love this pick because you guys gave up a bunch in order to draft a bust who doesn't fit your scheme or your needs. The Pac-10 was bad last year and Matthews was helped by being on a loaded defense. I assume he'll have to play OLB in that system but I don't think he has the speed and ball skills. Take a look at Matthews' production and compare it to Marcus Freeman's. It's not even close. Heh, nice job TT.

Round 4, Pick 9 (109) T.J. Lang OT 6'4" 316 Eastern Michigan

He's a guy who seemed to be rated a lot higher than I liked him. He's got good size, is strong as a bull, he did well against Larry English when they played, and he's versatile. But I just don't see anything special about the guy. He's like Sitton, Giancomini, Spitz, Barbre, or Preston (who we got in free agency) and the other guys we already have on our roster. He may develop into a solid RT, but doesn't have the skills to be a LT. Still, all the charts say he was good value, the Packers need some help on the O Line, and he's got a good attitude. He'll get a shot, but I honestly don't expect much from him. Hopefully, I'm wrong and we now have our starting RT for a deade. I'm just not seeing it.

He might play, but it seemed like he was a reach. Still, you were desperate for OL help and he might create some competition. From the film I can find on the guy he's a giant holding penalty waiting to happen and is pretty susceptible to the bull rush. If he's at guard he might be OK though.

Round 5, Pick 9 (145) Quinn Johnson FB 6'1" 246 LSU

Why did we pick him here, when there was better choices, both as players and at positions of need? (Meredith, Scott McKillop, James Casey, Victor Harris). He may very well be an upgrade over our current FBs, but he hasn't caught a lot of balls and averages 2 ypc, both of which knock him down on my list. Still, he's a big, bruising lead blocker with a great mean streak and he should help in short yardage situation. While it is nice to get a starter in the 5th round, I didn't see a whole lot of problems with their current FBs and there were other guys I liked. But, he's a good addition to the team, just not where I would have liked him picked.

This guy won't help you much, I'm pretty sure the FB position wasn't the issue with your running game. And how often do you line up a FB these days anyways, you guys will probably have 3 WRs on the field at all times plus a TE so this guy will be regulated to short yardage. Awfully early to be grabbing guys with this limited use.

Round 5, Pick 26 (162) (Got in trade to move up into the 1st round) Jamon Meredith OT 6'5" 304 South Carolina

I LOVED this draft. If I could marry this pick, I would. Meredith seriously underacheived as a senior, but he has the size, skills, quickness, and intelligence to be a successful Left Tackle, which puts him miles ahead of the rest of the draft picks available there. I thought he was well worth a third round pick, so to (finally) get him in the 5th was great value. I think he has a very high ceiling (starting LTs in the NFL aren't easy to find, let alone in the 5th round) and, even if he can't cut it as a LT, he can work at any other position on the O Line. He's an improvement on any backup on the roster already.

A good pick. I'm not sure I agree that he's a starting LT in the league and his run blocking is almost non-existent, so RT is out. He lacks leg strength and is a bit of a hip bender but compensates with good feet. A strong bull rush would hurt him on the edge. As a guard I like him a lot better.

The rest of the draft is a bunch of nothing. It looks like Wynn and Jones are just duct tape to try and bridge the transition to a 3-4, but they have 4-3 type skills making the picks very questionable.

[Hamlet]

If Gilbert ends up as a 2-gap player he'll be the lightest one since the 70s. At 288 pounds and with that kind of speed and quickness it's safe to say he won't be a 2-gap player. The Bears tend to do some silly and baffling things with personnel (see: Hester at the X) but trying to make him a 2-gap guy would take the cake. He works nicely because the Bears play one 1-gap DT and one 2-gap DT and if he transitions to end that works too since they often play one DE in a 6-technique where being an over sized DE is an advantage.I coveted Gilbert for the Packers because I think he'd make an awesome DE in the 3-4. He's very raw, of course, and has poor technique, but his short area quickness and size would likely mean double teams, which open up spots for the LBs. Which is exactly what you want from a DE in the 3-4.
You want him? You can have him for Lang straight up.It's all about needs. The Packers have an awesome receiving crew, we don't need another #2. ...But, I'll take solace in the fact the Pack defense sucked ass last year and the switch to the 3-4 almost certainly will have some bumps in the road and some players playing out of position all year.So it will be just like last year, where big mistakes cost our defense plenty. Ewww, could be a long season. But if Raji has grown up and is ready to be a professional, I like our chances.

[Hamlet]

I love this pick because you guys gave up a bunch in order to draft a bust who doesn't fit your scheme or your needs. The Pac-10 was bad last year and Matthews was helped by being on a loaded defense. I assume he'll have to play OLB in that system but I don't think he has the speed and ball skills. Take a look at Matthews' production and compare it to Marcus Freeman's. It's not even close. Heh, nice job TT. Marcus Freeman maxed out in college. Matthews, however, has huge upside. Which is why he went (and was projected to go) in the first round. And, contrary to your assertion, is a perfect fit in the 3-4. He can blitz, he can stop the run, and he can cover. He also can play inside if need be. As I said, I'm not completely sold and have concerns that he's an overacheiver, but everyone seems to be praising this kid, and I trust TT more than you trust Angelo, so we will see. Plus, he's a hard worker, loves special teams, plays hard and always gives his best. He's a football player.

This guy won't help you much, I'm pretty sure the FB position wasn't the issue with your running game. And how often do you line up a FB these days anyways, you guys will probably have 3 WRs on the field at all times plus a TE so this guy will be regulated to short yardage. Awfully early to be grabbing guys with this limited use.BPA, according to TT. He had him graded a round or two higher, so they took him for value. Most people say he's the best fullback in the draft. Even if it's a dying position. And he's supposedly going to help out our special teams, which desperately need it.
A good pick. I'm not sure I agree that he's a starting LT in the league and his run blocking is almost non-existent, so RT is out. He lacks leg strength and is a bit of a hip bender but compensates with good feet. A strong bull rush would hurt him on the edge. As a guard I like him a lot better.The knocks I've heard on him is that he doesn't get on well with coaches and may not have the desire to work hard at football. But I love his upside and his intelligence. Hopefully, he'll put it all together, get more aggressive, and become our staple at LT for a long time.

[Hamlet]

Here are a list of my guys who went undrafted in the draft who would be good pickups for any team:

Mitch King (6'1, 280), DL, Iowa: In college, he played DT, DE, and LB. He's a high motor, scrappy kid with good production, but not great athleticism or size or speed (which is why he wasn't drafted). I'd love to see if he could fit as a 3-4 DE.

*signed by Tennessee Titans

Everette Pedescleaux (6'5, 305), Northern Iowa: Almost the opposite of King, he's a great athlete with incredible size and quickness and some questions about his desire and maturity. He's clearly a developmental project, like a long term developmental project with only a slim chance of paying off, but I'd like to see him get a shot. I'd love him at DE in the 3-4.

*signed by Denver Broncos

Quan Cosby, WR, Texas: Too small and slow for the NFL, but damn productive. Plus he had to put up with Bill Cosby on ESPN and didn't kill him, so he gets points for character.

*signed with Cincinnatti Bengals

Jeremiah Johnson, RB, Oregon: Productive RB who has durability issues. Not that the PAC 10 are defensive stalwarts, but he averaged 7.1 ypc this past year, so there is something there.

*signed with the Houston Texans.

[Really Not All That Bright]

Graham Harrell seems to have signed with the Browns. Great pickup- I know everyone hates spread quarterbacks, and he doesn't have a big arm, but you have to respect on-field production.

[furt]

Henry Melton, DE, Texas (4th round, 5th pick - #105 overall) #105 is too high, but I've always thought that there was a place for guys who could do a couple of diverse things competently even if he wasn't brilliant, much as the Patriots used Troy Brown.

Imagine a guy who can be a backup fullback/short yardage back, take 5-10 snaps a game as a relief DE, and be a size/speed guy on special teams. That's a valuable player for a coaching staff smart enough to use him.

[furt]

This really doesn't sound like a "Pat White is a good quarterback" bet, but rather a "every quarterback in this draft sucks" bet. In part, yes it is. I think White will be competent; Rodney Peete with better wheels. But I don't think more than one other guy will be better than that.

But, in the interest of the challenge, how about this. On Tuesday, December 20th, we figure out, either by you or me agreeing, or by poll, the answer to the question: "which QB of the 2009 draft class, would you rather have for a game, if healthy, at that moment." If Pat White finishes number one or two, you win. If not, I win. That way, I'm covered if Sanchez or Stafford is injured (even temporarily). I also get the undrafted free agents, and the "Pat White sucks, BUT he sucks a little bit less than every other person in that draft year" doesn't count as a win for you. Yes it does, if White wins the poll. I'll give you the undrafted FAs, even though I'll say now that that worries me a bit.

I'm a fan of Jameson's and Bombay Sapphire. How about a nice bottle of spirits of your choice for the victor?Done. Jameson's it is.


What if White running the Wildcat results in a complete paradigm shift in the NFL which renders the quarterback obsolete and the QB/HB hybrid becomes the most important player on the field?
I win! :D

[Hamlet]

Done. Jameson's it is. I have problems remembering where my car keys are. I'll have to leave it up to you to remember the bet.

[Omniscient]

The Bears brought in 3 undrafted QBs to compete for the 3rd or 4th QB spot. FSU QB Drew Weatherford, Northwestern QB C.J. Bacher and Mizzou QB Chase Patton. These guys are in addition to the earlier signing of another Northwestern QB Brett Basanez to a 2-year deal. Between these 4 guys one will end up on the roster as a 3rd QB and another will be on the practice squad as the 4th we hope. I'm particularly interested in Patton, he's got prototypical size and arm strength but just couldn't beat out Chase Daniels to get on the field. The Matt Cassel comparisons are obvious.

Here's a list (http://blogs.suntimes.com/bears/2009/04/an_early_look_at_bears_free-ag.html#more) of the undrafted FAs the Bears have signed. It's a pretty uninspiring list.

We picked up a hammer of a Fullback in Cal's Will Ta’ufo’ou. FB isn't that big of a need for us and we've been using so many 2 TE sets that it's not a position that gets on the field much. Still, I think he's a pretty good player and he could steal the job from McKie. I'm especially pleased we weren't silly enough to use a 5th round pick on him.

The rest of the players are nobodies. I'm particularly surprised that the Bears didn't bring in any of the higher rated undrafted WRs or FS considering the open competition at the position. WR Aaron Kelly signed with the Falcons and would have been worth a look. WR Greg Carr from FSU went to the Chargers. WR Jaison Williams of Oeregon went to Washington. South Carolina FS Emanuel Cook went to the Jets. Marshall FS C.J. Spillman who I thought the Bears should have drafted ended up in San Diego too, not that I can blame these guys for opting to play in that city.

[Least Original User Name Ever]

The Lions invitees are DT John Gill (Northwestern)
LB Andrew Downey (Maine)
LB Daniel Holtzclaw (E. Michigan)
C Dan Gerberry (Ball State)
S Otis Wiley (Mich State)
PK Swayze Walters (UAB)
WR DJ Boldin (Wake Forest)
DB Mark Parson (Ohio)

That's Anquan Boldin's younger brother there.

[Omniscient]

Here's a nice composite (http://sports.espn.go.com/chat/sportsnation/story?id=4104114) for Draft Grades from around the internet. The NFC North is almost universally considered to have had the best overall draft of any division.

[Least Original User Name Ever]

Here's a nice composite (http://sports.espn.go.com/chat/sportsnation/story?id=4104114) for Draft Grades from around the internet. The NFC North is almost universally considered to have had the best overall draft of any division.

Which means, without fail, that we drafted the worst.

[Omniscient]

Here's quick rundown of the NFC North's Drafts.

Chicago Bears
I've already broken down the Bears in excruciating detail that probably bored anyone besides me and Hamlet to tears and I won't rehash it too much here. So, let's come up with a grade.

We need to break the Bears draft grade into two components. The Bears gave away a 2009 1st and 3rd Round pick and a 2010 first round pick for him plus Kyle Orton and got back a 2009 5th round pick to get Jay Cutler. Cutler is a A+ prospect without a doubt, he's Matt Stafford with a hell of a lot better resume. However they gave up a lot for him, Orton is meaningless really but those picks were big. Had they not given next year's #1 too I would have left the grade as an A+ but losing that has to count against the move. Chances are Angelo would have botched it but he might be fired come next season so maybe it actually has a little value. I'm going to call the Cutler portion of the draft an A-

The rest of the draft was a mixed bag. I like most of the players we got and I like the values of all but one of the picks but I'm left wondering what the strategy was. It wasn't really best player available and it certainly wasn't need based, it was some weird hybrid of the two that just came across and confused and tentative. As outlined before I'm left wondering where these players will get playing time if they should become first rate players. With the exception of Iglesias I feel like Angelo was looking for homeruns with every pick instead of filling some dire needs with more proven guys who might have lower ceilings. To sum it up, I think Gilbert will be a stud in rotation and Iglesias will probably end up starting for us this season. Moore could be a future starting CB and there are a few likely backups who have strong chances to make the roster. Generally that would be a good draft, but the Bears really needed impact players now or else 2009 will be a disappointing transitional year. The rookie portion of the draft gets a C-

Considering the first day is where you get the highest value players and most of your stars I'm going to give the Cutler portion 60% of the overall grade. That makes the final grade a low B. Grade: B

Green Bay Packers
I've also made my opinions known on the Packers draft so this will be short. I think B.J. Raji is going to be star in the league. I'm not looking forward to seeing him in the Packers uni and I'll be quietly hoping that all those supposed character flaws rear their ugly head in the cold, boring North woods. The Pack gave up a bunch to land Matthews and that compounds the fact that I think he's a bum. The rest of the draft is uninspiring. I don't think either of the OT prospects have much chance of being starting Tackles but they could end up playing a good role inside, getting two with low-ish picks makes the bust potential minimal which is savvy. Drafting a FB who can't rush the ball or catch at the top of the 5th round is comically dumb. The rest of the draft is littered with nobodies who don't even offer any breakout star potential. If not for Raji this would be one of the worst drafts in the league. Grade: C-

Detroit Lions
The Kitties have a ton of holes to fill and I've been generally impressed with what they've done over the offseason. They won't build a team from essentially zero in one offseason, but I think they took some positive steps without spending money recklessly in free agency like many other new regimes tended to do.

In the draft the Lions made it clear that they intend to give Matt Stafford weapons to grow with. LOUNE and others bemoaned the fact they they bypassed a stud OT but I think it's a reasonable choice. Essentially what message that sends is that Stafford will not be starting in 2010. They can worry about adding an OT in FA or in the 2010 draft and in the meantime they got him a stud TE than can block and catch in Pettigrew and a smart, dynamic #3 WR opposite CJ in Williams. These 3 guys should be able to develop a good rapport now and grow together. That said, I really like Murtha's chances to develop into a starting RT with a good NFL training room. Delmas might be the pick of the draft and will probably start right away and he'll need to against the vastly improved NFC North offenses. Aaron Brown is a guy I really liked in the draft and could be an excellent complement to Kevin Smith and a player in the mold of Kevin Jones. Sammie Lee Hill isn't a guy I think will be worth much, some draft geeks have been talking him up but I think that's nothing but wishful thinking. Kiper wants him to succeed so he can feel smart for liking a guy from Stillman.

As you can see I really like this draft fro Detroit. They need players everywhere and I think they took a BPA approach and made it work beautifully. Their top 4 picks will all probably be starting for this team in 2010 and with needs all over the field criticizing them for not filling the need at OT with a reach seems silly. Grade: A

Minnesota Vikings
The Vikes didn't have a ton of needs and they didn't have a ton of picks, so there's a nice bit of symmetry there. Their biggest need was at QB and never really had a chance to address it so I guess this will remain a ongoing drama in the preseason.

They added another big weapon in Harvin who scares the crap out of me. If they get Peterson and Harvin on the field at the same time with Berrian stretching the defense out you have a potential TD on every single play. If they ever get a good QB they will be damned scary. They also added Loadholt who looks like he has the potential to be a roadgrader on the right side clearing a path for Peterson and Taylor. I don't know how he'll hold up in pass protection but that's not what they got him for. These top 2 picks have some serious character concerns and could flame out completely but both are solid values where they were drafted. Allen will probably help immediately in the return game and could develop into a starting CB much like DJ Moore for the Bears. He's on a small side but they won't be asking him to step in right away and he can add some bulk, eventually I expect him to be at worst a starting Nickelback because he's got above average tackling ability for a corner. The rest of the Vikings draft is a big old zero, but their top 3 picks were all very strong.

If not for character concerns and the lack of late round picks this grade could be a bit higher. The Vikings gave away picks to acquire Sage Rosenfels and Kelly Holcomb from the Texans and Eagles respectively so you have to factor that in. They think Rosenfels could start for them and if he wins the job it makes this draft look even better. Grade: B-

[Hamlet]

Green Bay Packers
I've also made my opinions known on the Packers draft so this will be short. I think B.J. Raji is going to be star in the league. I'm not looking forward to seeing him in the Packers uni and I'll be quietly hoping that all those supposed character flaws rear their ugly head in the cold, boring North woods. The Pack gave up a bunch to land Matthews and that compounds the fact that I think he's a bum. The rest of the draft is uninspiring. I don't think either of the OT prospects have much chance of being starting Tackles but they could end up playing a good role inside, getting two with low-ish picks makes the bust potential minimal which is savvy. Drafting a FB who can't rush the ball or catch at the top of the 5th round is comically dumb. The rest of the draft is littered with nobodies who don't even offer any breakout star potential. If not for Raji this would be one of the worst drafts in the league. Grade: C-I am amused that, on one hand you link to the composite draft grades where the Packers are graded with 5 A's, 3 B's, and one, count them, one C; yet you give them the worst grade of any of those. I do admire your fortitude in coming to your own conclusions and sticking with them. Too bad those conclusions are ... faulty.

[Omniscient]

I am amused that, on one hand you link to the composite draft grades where the Packers are graded with 5 A's, 3 B's, and one, count them, one C; yet you give them the worst grade of any of those. I do admire your fortitude in coming to your own conclusions and sticking with them. Too bad those conclusions are ... faulty.

Well, linking to that page doesn't mean I agree with the conclusions, it's just interesting. Draft grades tend to be kind of silly since we know so little until 2 years from now, but what makes them even more silly is that half the "experts" commentary and grades don't coincide.

Here's what Prisco says about the Packers

# Best pick: They had to get a power player inside and took B.J. Raji in the first round. He is a load.
# Questionable move: Trading back into the first round to get USC linebacker Clay Matthews. I didn't like that move at all. He's good. Not that good.
# Second-day gem: Landing tackle Jamon Meredith in the fifth round could prove to be a steal for a team in need of a tackle.

He essentially agrees with me, yet he somehow gives you guys a B. If Matthews is a bad move AND they gave up multiple picks to get hm you have to mark them down significantly.

Of course the good grades were from people who like Matthews. Those people are stupid, so it's neither here nor there. ;)

[Omniscient]

Kiper's grades are always hilariously mediocre and uninsightful. This year he has 21 of the 32 teams with grades between a B+ and a C+. Way to go on a limb there Kiper, and that's actually a bold year compared to years past.

[Hamlet]

He essentially agrees with me, yet he somehow gives you guys a B. If Matthews is a bad move AND they gave up multiple picks to get hm you have to mark them down significantly.You call Matthews a bum, he calls Matthews good, and you somehow "Agree"? Prisco seems to be saying that Matthews is good, but the price was too much to pay. Now what counts as "good" is certainly up for debate, but he obviously doesn't think it was the catastrophic mistake that you do. And I remain ambivalent about it, because I don't know how good Matthews is, or what is too high. But I do trust TT and the Packers enough to think, at the worst, he'll be a starter.

But, as you said, we will see.

One of these days I'll search the database for the old drafts, and see just how wrong I was on some of my guesses. I seem to remember being high on Cedric Benson. ...

[Omniscient]

You call Matthews a bum, he calls Matthews good, and you somehow "Agree"? Prisco seems to be saying that Matthews is good, but the price was too much to pay. Now what counts as "good" is certainly up for debate, but he obviously doesn't think it was the catastrophic mistake that you do. And I remain ambivalent about it, because I don't know how good Matthews is, or what is too high. But I do trust TT and the Packers enough to think, at the worst, he'll be a starter.

It's all a matter of perspective I guess. If Matthews is a replacement level starter, a guy that's on the field for a couple seasons but represents an area for improvement in the 2012 draft I'd call that a bust and Matthews a bum. If Marcus Freeman has the same career I'll call him a success. It's all about relative value and if Matthews is anything short of a star and near Pro Bowl candidate then that was a bad pick in my book. When you trade up into the first round you'd really better get an impact player that is around for 6 or 7 years.

One of these days I'll search the database for the old drafts, and see just how wrong I was on some of my guesses. I seem to remember being high on Cedric Benson. ...

I did that after the Cutler trade and I intended to throw some of your comments into your face. Of course I then read some of my comments on other players in the same draft and decided discretion was the better option.

[Jules Andre]

Omniscient's link has the Eagles with the overall best draft. The more I've done soem reading and the more I've thought about it, I agree. This was a really fantastic draft by the birds. Made especially sweet by how bad Dallas' draft was.

The Eagles signed from undrafted rookies the other day. Some of the descriptions of these guys sound very promising, and the Eagles have done really well with undrafted rookies as of late (Quintin Mikell, Jamaal Jackson, and Joselio Hanson). I know nothing about these guys, so if anyone happened to catch them in a game they watched, let me know what you thought of them.

RB Walter Mendenhall, Illinois St. - Rashard Mendenhall's brother, 6.3 ypc average in '08.
S Reshard Langford, Vanderbilt - Four year starter, 8 INT, 16 tackles for loss.
FB Marcus Mailei, Weber St. - Two time All-Big Sky selection (yeah!! woo!) that can catch really well.
G Dallas Reynolds, BYU - Played all five OLine positions and was a two-time All-Mountain West selection.
CB Courtney Robinson, UMass - Two time All-CAA selection.
RB Marcus Thigpen, Indiana - Copy pasted - "Finished second in school history with 2,009 career kick return yards, third with 4,658 career all-purpose yards and tied for eighth with 21 career touchdowns. Became the first player in school history to record 1,000 yards rushing (1,621), receiving (1,028) and by kick return (2,009). Amassed eight career rushes of 70 yards or more. Earned first team All-America honors as a sophomore after leading the nation with a 30.1 yard kick return average and three touchdowns on 24 returns."

Interesting bunch, I wonder if any will make the team.

Sounds like The Patriots got Brian Hoyer, of whom I heard at least twice was the most likely "Tom Brady" in this year's draft. If New England grabbed him, I give that analysis a tiny bit more weight.

[Omniscient]

Omniscient's link has the Eagles with the overall best draft. The more I've done soem reading and the more I've thought about it, I agree. This was a really fantastic draft by the birds. Made especially sweet by how bad Dallas' draft was.

The Eagles signed from undrafted rookies the other day. Some of the descriptions of these guys sound very promising, and the Eagles have done really well with undrafted rookies as of late (Quintin Mikell, Jamaal Jackson, and Joselio Hanson). I know nothing about these guys, so if anyone happened to catch them in a game they watched, let me know what you thought of them.

RB Walter Mendenhall, Illinois St. - Rashard Mendenhall's brother, 6.3 ypc average in '08.
S Reshard Langford, Vanderbilt - Four year starter, 8 INT, 16 tackles for loss.
FB Marcus Mailei, Weber St. - Two time All-Big Sky selection (yeah!! woo!) that can catch really well.
G Dallas Reynolds, BYU - Played all five OLine positions and was a two-time All-Mountain West selection.
CB Courtney Robinson, UMass - Two time All-CAA selection.
RB Marcus Thigpen, Indiana - Copy pasted - "Finished second in school history with 2,009 career kick return yards, third with 4,658 career all-purpose yards and tied for eighth with 21 career touchdowns. Became the first player in school history to record 1,000 yards rushing (1,621), receiving (1,028) and by kick return (2,009). Amassed eight career rushes of 70 yards or more. Earned first team All-America honors as a sophomore after leading the nation with a 30.1 yard kick return average and three touchdowns on 24 returns."

Interesting bunch, I wonder if any will make the team.

Sounds like The Patriots got Brian Hoyer, of whom I heard at least twice was the most likely "Tom Brady" in this year's draft. If New England grabbed him, I give that analysis a tiny bit more weight.

I really like the back end of the Eagles draft and the veteran additions they got in Peters and Hobbs make this a very good draft. I'm less sold on how Maclin and McCoy fit though. The seem to suffer from the same affliction as the Bears draft, meaning they drafted replacements as opposed to compliments. Replacements for guys that hopefully aren't going anywhere that is. McCoy is Westbrook 2.0....wouldn't they be better with a hammer like Beanie Wells who can compliment Westbrook? Maclin is Jackson 2.0....wouldn't they have been better with say a tall, jump ball guy like Ramses Barden who they let the Giants trade up to grab in their spot?

[Hamlet]

McCoy is Westbrook 2.0....wouldn't they be better with a hammer like Beanie Wells who can compliment Westbrook?Wells was gone a round earlier, and I think it was pretty well agreed that McCoy was the next best RB after him and Moreno. They took the best running back available. I'm not sold that getting "complimentary" players is the best strategy if that player is worse than the replacement one. Take the better player.
Maclin is Jackson 2.0....wouldn't they have been better with say a tall, jump ball guy like Ramses Barden who they let the Giants trade up to grab in their spot?Because Barden sucks and Maclin is good? Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of Maclin's by any stretch, but he's better than Barden.

I don't see a problem in drafting the best player available. I do see a problem drafting a worse player only because they are "complimentary".

[furt]

I'm less sold on how Maclin and McCoy fit though. The seem to suffer from the same affliction as the Bears draft, meaning they drafted replacements as opposed to compliments.Don't know if you saw it, but I made the same complaint about Maclin in the other thread; I'd have preferred they traded out of 17 and got Anquan Boldin. But if they weren't going to do that for salary or whatever reasons ... who else do they take? Hakeem Nicks? Mohammed Massaqoi? Yes, Barden is huge, but there's a reason he was projected as a mid-round pick.

McCoy, is clearly a replacement, and that's a good thing. Running backs get old fast, and Westbrook is 30.

[Omniscient]

Wells was gone a round earlier, and I think it was pretty well agreed that McCoy was the next best RB after him and Moreno. They took the best running back available. I'm not sold that getting "complimentary" players is the best strategy if that player is worse than the replacement one. Take the better player.
I wasn't suggesting they take Wells in the second, I'm suggesting getting Maclin in the first (and trading up to do so) didn't really improve the team they'll have on the field very much. Taking Wells in the first would have had a greater impact.

Because Barden sucks and Maclin is good? Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of Maclin's by any stretch, but he's better than Barden.
They both might suck, they both might be good. At least Barden would give them a red zone threat and a big guy to use on the edge and more importantly, he'd only cost a 3rd round pick. The point is WR is a position of strength for the Eagles. Using the 1st rounder there is a strategy I dislike, especially when that player doesn't give you a new dimension.

Don't know if you saw it, but I made the same complaint about Maclin in the other thread; I'd have preferred they traded out of 17 and got Anquan Boldin. But if they weren't going to do that for salary or whatever reasons ... who else do they take? Hakeem Nicks? Mohammed Massaqoi? Yes, Barden is huge, but there's a reason he was projected as a mid-round pick.

I think Boldin would have been ideal. Their WRs were good enough that they didn't need one, taking Maclin was purely a luxury pick. If I'm the Eagles I'd rather address the pressing need at RB with Wells or Donald Brown and roll the dice with a late round WR to develop into something that compliments Curtis and Jackson.

[kidchameleon]

The point is WR is a position of strength for the Eagles.

I thought we were talking about the Philidelphia Eagles. Which team are you talking about?

[Omniscient]

I thought we were talking about the Philidelphia Eagles. Which team are you talking about?

How about this: Short, fast, elusive possession WR is a position of strength for the Eagles.

In minor news, it appears my original supposition that Lance Louis would be a Guard prospect (http://blogs.suntimes.com/bears/2009/04/louis_stay_at_tight_end_could.html#more) for the Bears was correct. He was assigned a Lineman's number and is listed as a OG on the Bears website now that they've updated the roster. They signed a pair of OGs in FA this offseason but Omiyale could be transitioning to OT if Pace or Williams falter so Guard is a position of need. I'm sure Louis could get work as a Jumbo TE or FB in goalline situations as well, but that seems like a secondary priority.