Need to advise daughter in typical 13-year-old social problem

[CookingWithGas]

My daughter seems to have gotten tangled up in one of those "mean girl" situations. Another girl at school (they're both in 7th grade) got mad at her about a month ago and is holding a grudge with a vengeance. My daughter's perception is that Mean Girl is trying to turn all their mutual friends away from my daughter, and is being openly hostile (e.g., Mean Girl audibly hisses when my daughter walks by her in class). The sad part is that they were friends until this incident. The incident apparently involves the Mean Girl having a crush on a boy; my daughter has known the boy since they were in preschool and said, "Do you know who likes you?" and he replied, "Mean Girl?" so the word is that my daughter spilled the beans. Hence massive retribution, at least in the world of a 13-year-old.

So what kind of advice can a dad give that will actually help? I can only think of the usual stuff that I would say to an adult, but a 13-year-old doesn't get it yet. What I really want to get across is:

1. Someone who acts like that isn't really your friend, it's a form of bullying
2. Someone who would line up behind her is being intimidated to do so
3. The whole world hasn't turned against you. You're going to be OK, your life isn't over.


What to do?

[Cat Fight]

There is very little you can do. Or that she can do, for that matter, except try not to fuel any more fiery teenage bitchery. Chances are the Mean Girl will be turned upon, eventually.

If you feel helpless, try to support your daughter with her school work and extracurricular activities. Some teens (especially girls, I've noticed) spend a 'reject summer' after a particularly nasty end of school year. They might spend two months in and out of the library, going to camp with people they don't go to school with, at a part-time job, reconnecting with old friends, babysitting... I knew for certain that high school was small potatoes in the grand scheme of things, and that helped a little.

Summer vacation heals many wounds.

[Anne Neville]

All I can think of is to tell her that this too shall pass. Also tell her that anybody who says your teenage years are the best years of your life is either pathetic, has a short memory, or is lying.

ETA: In my current stage of life, I have to deal with things like sewer backups. It still beats the pants off dealing with the social drama and everything else associated with being 13. Tell her it really does get better.

[tdn]

Her best bet is to rise above it, keep her composure, and regard her friend with a little bit of pity.

These are not things that 13-year-old girls are terribly good at, unfortunately.

[Gus Gusterson]

The incident apparently involves the Mean Girl having a crush on a boy; my daughter has known the boy since they were in preschool and said, "Do you know who likes you?" and he replied, "Mean Girl?" so the word is that my daughter spilled the beans.Wasn't she going to spill the beans and the only thing that prevented her from doing so is that he guessed it on his own?

[Chessic Sense]

Funny. I did the exact same thing in the 6th or 7th grade. Same result. The bully did NOT get turned against. They all lined up against me. Worst 2 years of my life. Very bad time of things.

My advice: Tell her to tell the other girl to knock it off. At that stage of life, no one can make her feel like crap unless she lets them. If she acts like she's in charge of the situation, she will be. Young teens and preteens will adopt whatever attitude they see their friends having. Tell her that now's the time to play the part she wants.

[Kalhoun]

Kids can get caught up in the bullying thing like a tidal wave. If your daughter starts telling you that all the other kids are turning against her, you need to notify the school and the parent of the bully. Man...you see this crap turn bad. Really bad. Listen to her and take action. The last couple weeks of reports on bullying just scares the hell out of me.

[Stoneburg]

I am fairly sure that physical violence would solve this issue. Tell your daughter to corner Mean Girl when she's alone and rough her up a little. I'm not advocating anything serious of course, just a hard slap or two across the face. She won't expect it and her only reaction will be shock. Then your daughter should make some threats like "If you don't cut this shit out I'm going to beat the shit out of you and then I'm gonna cut your hair off, and if you tell anyone about this I'm seriously going to hurt you. Now stop being a bitch." Or something like that.

It may not be 100% ethical but I think it is close to 100% effective in these situations, especially since girls in general are much less prepared for physical violence. Playing by other peoples rules (social in this case) is not a good strategy and hands over power. Take the initiative, be aggressive, make them play according to your rules.

There's probably a valuable life lesson in there for both girls as well.

[sherrylynn]

And #4 -
Soon, these girls will find someone else to pick on ---
Sadly, very typical for this age group.

[Omega Glory]

I am fairly sure that physical violence would solve this issue. Tell your daughter to corner Mean Girl when she's alone and rough her up a little. I'm not advocating anything serious of course, just a hard slap or two across the face. She won't expect it and her only reaction will be shock. Then your daughter should make some threats like "If you don't cut this shit out I'm going to beat the shit out of you and then I'm gonna cut your hair off, and if you tell anyone about this I'm seriously going to hurt you. Now stop being a bitch." Or something like that.

It may not be 100% ethical but I think it is close to 100% effective in these situations, especially since girls in general are much less prepared for physical violence. Playing by other peoples rules (social in this case) is not a good strategy and hands over power. Take the initiative, be aggressive, make them play according to your rules.

There's probably a valuable life lesson in there for both girls as well.Then, wait for the call from the school telling you they've called the cops on your daughter.

IME, there really isn't a way to get the things you want to tell your daughter to sink in until she's ready to see it for herself. Has she confronted the girl verbally, yet? How's the school's guidance counselor? S/he might be able to get the kids into a meeting to try and resolve things before they go too far. I also agree with Kalhoun.

[Kimmy_Gibbler]

Then, wait for the call from the school telling you they've called the cops on your daughter.

I suspect it is a commentary on the enthusiasm for violence demonstrated in the "I lack the self-awareness to see that while I may have believed I was avenging my victimization in high school, I was, in fact, just a bully" thread. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=515010)

If not: thread won in eight.

[Omega Glory]

Yes, I assumed he was joking too (Threatening another beating, and cutting off her hair?- maybe she should do that if she's looking to be a junior mafioso or something), but also had that thread in mind, and figured someone would be seriously advocating that soon.

[Chronos]

My daughter's perception is that Mean Girl is trying to turn all their mutual friends away from my daughter, and is being openly hostile (e.g., Mean Girl audibly hisses when my daughter walks by her in class).There's got to be some way to turn this into a joke. If your daughter can make Mean Girl the object of ridicule for her actions, she's won.

[Sleeps With Butterflies]

There's got to be some way to turn this into a joke. If your daughter can make Mean Girl the object of ridicule for her actions, she's won.

Exactly. If she can at least pretend it doesn't bother her and stop, look, and laugh when hissed at it might slow the mean girl down. A small laugh at her attempted meanness may eventually worry her enough to stop because Mean Girl doesn't want to be the object of ridicule.

Also, you might want to get this book: Odd Girl Out: The Hidden Culture of Aggression in Girls (http://www.amazon.com/Odd-Girl-Out-Culture-Aggression/dp/0156027348/ref=pd_sim_b_3)

[tdn]

There's got to be some way to turn this into a joke. If your daughter can make Mean Girl the object of ridicule for her actions, she's won.

That's one possible solution. But to me it smacks of playing games, and that can backfire.

She could instead face Mean Girl, and ask point-blank "Why do you have problem with me?" It's honest, direct, and mature.

[tdn]

Also, you might want to get this book: Odd Girl Out: The Hidden Culture of Aggression in Girls (http://www.amazon.com/Odd-Girl-Out-Culture-Aggression/dp/0156027348/ref=pd_sim_b_3)

That looks awesome. Thank you.

[SomeUserName]

I don't have a lot of advice.

My daughter had a best friend in school and the same sort of scene happened.

They broke off friends for a while and there was drama. They are now both 18 and best buds. They laugh about it now.

Either two thing will happen. They will remain enemies and glare at each other the rest of their school days or it will smooth over.

I too gave my girl the same advice as you have already pointed out. If they have many mutual friends then have a sleep over with the friends that are still on her side or better yet no side. She could even invite the "x-friend". It shows she is willing to forgive and forget. It is worth a shot.

Tell her not to discuss the issue and just have fun. It does not have to be anything big. Some movies and a pizza. Just let them be girls.

The other girl is embarassed and needs to vent it and your daughter is the target. She will get over it and if not then let it go and move on.

[Drunky Smurf]

That's one possible solution. But to me it smacks of playing games, and that can backfire.

She could instead face Mean Girl, and ask point-blank "Why do you have problem with me?" It's honest, direct, and mature.

This is what I would suggest too but do it in class with the teacher present and not in a confrontational manner.

I did that to a kid in 8th grade, we're both boys, and I asked him in a curious type of manner and just stood there staring at him. The teacher asked if there was a problem and I said, "No, I just had a question." and I kept looking at him. After a few seconds he just looked away and I went back to my desk. He never said anything to me again until the end of the year.

And as often happens with boys we became friends over the summer after 8th grade. It turns out he just wanted to look cool in front of his friends.

[Vihaga]

Did your kid ever apologize for the initial transgression?


If I remember middle school at all, ratting out someone's secret crush was a severe faux pas that would get you ostracized for a while on its own, without anyone setting out to alienate you.

Not that your daughter should give into any kind of bullying, but I cut off a lot of bitchery in high school by being proactive when my big mouth got me into trouble.

As a bonus, it's an obvious way for her to take the high road if the rest of her friends are on the fence. Otherwise, all she can do is ride it out and realize that losing a creepy snake-hybrid as a friend isn't the end of the world.

[Sleeps With Butterflies]

That looks awesome. Thank you.

It's a great book for anyone, not just people with daughters. Just reading it you can see where a lot of insecurities or actions of adult women come from.

Good stuff.

[Jodi]

The only thing I would add to the OP'er suggestion is that you also give her lots of positive reinforcement about herself. Girls at that age set their personal value based on what is mirrored back to them. (Well, lots of them do, anway.) So it may sound very trite and perhaps OTT, but I think it's important to say things like "You're smart and funny, you're a great person and a great friend, it's too bad Mean Girl doesn't see that anymore, but other kids will, you're doing a great job in school and we're so proud of you," etc. etc.

Diraeli said, "Everyone likes flattery, and when it comes to Royalty you should lay it on with a trowel." I think that's also true of girls at this age. Self-esteem can be a very shakey thing, and fights with friends or peers can undermine it badly. Even if all you hear in response to your comments is "Oh, Dad," that won't mean she hasn't heard you. There's a ton of value in "WE love you. WE think you're awesome, and we always will."

[Harriet the Spry]

I think the answer starts with your daughter apologizing. Because what she did, in asking the guy if he knew who liked him, was stirring the pot. It was, in the jungle that is junior high, a power play of sorts. She was using confidential information from Mean Girl to elevate her own power within the social circle. This does not make her a bad 13 year old girl, but it makes her a normal 13 year old girl, and they are problematic creatures. The adult equivalent might be letting slip something like "do you know who's on the layoff list?" or "I saw your girlfriend last night." It was not an innocent action. Although she may not realize it, she was also playing mean girl politics.

When these two were getting along, did you get to know Mean Girl's parents at all? Could you talk to them and say that things have broken down, and maybe get the kids together and say "Listen, you two need to have a civil conversation about this where you both admit your mistakes and agree that hostilities (which could get you both into trouble at school) will stop. Whether you go back to being friends is up to you."

[Freudian Slit]

"I saw your girlfriend last night" isn't innocent?

[FriarTed]

Bypassing all the responses, here's what to advise your daughter-

Everytime MG even glances her way, she's to go into spasms, freeze up, etc. & beg MG to take the spell off her. Tell all her friends that MG is a witch who astrally projects into her dreams every night to torment her, and that MG dragged her to a coven meeting where MG had sex with the Goat-Man and they tried to make your daughter sign her soul over with her blood in a big black book.

It's even better if she says it in mock-KJV English & calls MG "Goody MG".

Hey! It worked in Salem!

[Roderick Femm]

My daughter seems to have gotten tangled up in one of those "mean girl" situations. Another girl at school (they're both in 7th grade) got mad at her about a month ago and is holding a grudge with a vengeance. My daughter's perception is that Mean Girl is trying to turn all their mutual friends away from my daughter, and is being openly hostile (e.g., Mean Girl audibly hisses when my daughter walks by her in class). The sad part is that they were friends until this incident. The incident apparently involves the Mean Girl having a crush on a boy; my daughter has known the boy since they were in preschool and said, "Do you know who likes you?" and he replied, "Mean Girl?" so the word is that my daughter spilled the beans. Hence massive retribution, at least in the world of a 13-year-old.

So what kind of advice can a dad give that will actually help? I can only think of the usual stuff that I would say to an adult, but a 13-year-old doesn't get it yet. What I really want to get across is:

1. Someone who acts like that isn't really your friend, it's a form of bullying
2. Someone who would line up behind her is being intimidated to do so
3. The whole world hasn't turned against you. You're going to be OK, your life isn't over.


What to do?I'm not a parent, but I wouldn't say any of those things. I don't know many adults who could take this is good part, let alone adolescents.

I would start by acknowledging her feelings. "Wow, it must feel like you've lost your best friend, and that the whole world is turning against you." You can probably say it better, since you know her and I don't. But I can't over-emphasize the importance of acknowledging that she has these feelings and that the feelings matter. Telling her not to feel that way will likely turn her off completely from interacting with you further on the subject.

Positive reinforcement should be happening all the time, but it has to be sincere and something she can relate to.

If you can get to the point where she can think clearly about what's happening and what led up to it, I think Harriet makes some very good points about your daugher apologizing for stirring the pot. If the story is enough different from what we are understanding such that she is completely blameless, then I think the confrontation in a neutral tone could work. "You're mad at me and I'm not sure why, so could we talk about it? I'd like to be friends again. Maybe I've done something I need to apologize for." A soft answer turneth away wrath, or so I've heard.


Roddy

[Harriet the Spry]

"I saw your girlfriend last night" isn't innocent?

Not when further discussion is likely to spark drama.

[BoBettie]

I think your daughter owes the girl an apology for telling her business- as stated above, her intent was obviously to do so, even though he guessed. No wonder she's pissed off! Your daughter needs to approach her in person and just say "Hey, I feel really bad about what happened between us, specifically about talking to Joe. I'm sorry. I understand that you don't want to be my friend anymore, but I still wanted you to know that I"m sorry."

It's hard to do, but it's the right thing. This is a great opportunity for her to learn, IMHO- when you wrong someone, you apologize for it. I'd bet about anything that eventually the "mean girl" will come around and they'll end up friends again.

[CookingWithGas]

I think the answer starts with your daughter apologizing. Because what she did, in asking the guy if he knew who liked him, was stirring the pot. It was, in the jungle that is junior high, a power play of sorts. There could be something to this. Although my daughter isn't malicious or devious, there could be some subconscious stuff going on here. And my daughter isn't particularly famous for thinking through her actions to consider the consequences.

An apology is probably a good place to start, but this girl has upped the ante to the point where it's hard to make an apology without losing face. Unfortunately at this point it will appear that the girl intimidated an apology out of her. I suppose international politics are like this....

When these two were getting along, did you get to know Mean Girl's parents at all? No, never met the parents.

[Anne Neville]

my daughter isn't particularly famous for thinking through her actions to consider the consequences.

Very few teenagers are.

[Dangerosa]

There could be something to this. Although my daughter isn't malicious or devious, there could be some subconscious stuff going on here. And my daughter isn't particularly famous for thinking through her actions to consider the consequences.

As the school counselor/ social worker/ psychologist to facilitate. This will involve "loosing face" for both girls, but will let MG know that you take this sort of bullying seriously enough to get the administration involved.

[Clothahump]

Tell her next time she gets hissed at, stop and look at Hissing Girl and say, "You know, I've seen second graders that act more mature than that." And then walk away.

[Mr. Duality]

Bypassing all the responses, here's what to advise your daughter-

Everytime MG even glances her way, she's to go into spasms, freeze up, etc. & beg MG to take the spell off her. Tell all her friends that MG is a witch who astrally projects into her dreams every night to torment her, and that MG dragged her to a coven meeting where MG had sex with the Goat-Man and they tried to make your daughter sign her soul over with her blood in a big black book.

It's even better if she says it in mock-KJV English & calls MG "Goody MG".

Hey! It worked in Salem!

Genius!

[MsRobyn]

I had this problem, sort of, when I was 13. For whatever reason the self-proclaimed "cool girls" at my summer camp decided I wasn't up to their standards and did their best to torment me.

One of them called me a "dog" repeatedly, and made jokes for her friends' benefit about it, at my expense. Finally, one day, I brought a Milk-Bone to camp, waited for an appropriate time, and threw it at her. I forget exactly what I said to her, but it came down to "it takes a dog to know a dog, so here's your treat." Being scorned by the scorned was humiliating for her, but once she understood that I didn't care about her mind games and that I could give as good as I got, and that I didn't mind doing it in front of God and everybody, she backed off, and so did the other girls.

IMNSHO, the hissing is a form of gaslighting, especially if MG is being careful not to let anyone around her hear her. (If that's not the case, she's brave.) The best way to deal with that is for your daughter to call MG on her mind games. Perhaps your daughter can bring a small bag of cat treats and place one on MG's desk when MG hisses. If MG wonders what's up, your daughter can tell her that since MG is behaving like a cat, she thought MG might like a cat treat. This will probably help stop the hissing, if nothing else. The rest of it is to be where MG isn't, at least for the rest of the school year.

The good news is that the drama will likely fizzle out over the summer. Whether they decide to be friends again is another issue entirely.

[thirdwarning]

If she's going to apologize, I'd suggest you practice with her, until she gets it just right. No groveling, no whining, nothing that can be construed as a sign of weakness. Just a very adult, mature admission of a single mistake. And then she needs to know that she has done what she can to make it right. The next move is up to MG. And no matter what happens afterward, your daughter needs to be able to walk away from it. Take the power away from MG. Not to turn the tables on her, just to balance things.

[HawksPath]

I'd add that the apology should sound real and not a weasal attack disguised as an apology. It's way too easy to do the half apology half excuse which could just up the ante more. The real apology could be disarming.

I hesitate to describe this as acting "adult" though, since I'm not sure the tendency is much in grown-ups favor either.

[DaphneBlack]

Yeah, this happened to me at age 13 as well. Well, what I did was 'tell on' a friend who had claimed she was thinking about committing suicide. Turns out she was just a lying bitch, but that's neither here nor there.

I'm not sure I'd recommend apologising, although it could be warranted in this case. From a realpolitik standpoint, though, I doubt it will accomplish anything right now, unless she can do as thirdwarning and Hawkspath say -- and I agree, most adults can't pull that off either.

Does your daughter have any friends not involved in the drama, that she can spend more time with? Does she have hobbies she can devote time to? Age 13, high school next year (or two years?), this might be the time to focus on things other than this groups of girls.

The hissing and stuff is infuriating (the girl in my situation did the exact same thing, weird). Saying 'just ignore it' is useless of course, but I'm not sure that it's possible to tell the girl to 'cut it out' in a way that will not give them an excuse to ratchet up the harassment. Sometimes a dignified silence and time are the only things that help.

[PunditLisa]

Your daughter wasn't completely blameless in this situation and you should point out that it's important to maintain integrity in relationships. If someone confides something to you, you should respect her enough to not spread it around. Ask her how she'd feel if her friend did the same thing. And then suggest that she apologize for the transgression without trying to make up excuses.

"I'm sorry that I betrayed your confidence when I told XXX that you liked him. I hope that you will accept my apology so that we can move beyond this."

At this point, her friend will either accept the apology or she won't. If she does, then great. If she doesn't, then that's the way the ball bounces. But I'd also point out to your daughter that even though her friend had justifiable reasons to be angry, her "punishment" was way over the top, spiteful, and immature. Bottom line is that this incident has given your daughter an opportunity to see her friend's true colors, and they aren't all that pretty. So why continue focusing her time and energy on a girl who has shown that she will turn on her on a dime? Why not turn her focus on creating friendships with girls who may not be as popular as her former friend, but who would be kind enough to extend forgiveness instead of flipping out over something relatively minor.

[Shirley Ujest]

19 of us went to a three bedroom, one bathroom on-the-lake cottage of a friend.

7 adults.

The rest were kids ranging from 7 up to 14.

Three girls. Two teenagers and my 8 year old.

The entire weekend was extremely nice and there was no fighting, except between the teenage girls.


If there are two teenage girls, there will be three things seriously wrong with the entire situation and it is always THE OTHER GIRLS FAULT OMFG WHY DO YOU HATE ME!!!!!

The entire group decided to put them on ignore and told them we were all ignoring them and their DRAMA until they decided to act like the girls we know, love and care about. If they didn't straighten up, well, with a buttload of boys around, I'm pretty sure letting them off chain would have resulted in some serious panty twisting times for the OMFGWHYAREYOUALL AGAINSTME!!!BOOOHOOOOO girls.



No advice just sympathies.