Lost 5:14 "The Variable"

[Trion]

Thread rules:

Information about all episodes aired to this point -- including the current week -- will be unboxed.
Information about this week's episode's "next week" teasers will be unboxed.
Information about future episodes taken from spoiler sites/inside sources, including Podcasts, will be boxed. This includes links to promo photos and screencaps from future episodes.
Speculation based on events in episodes aired up to this point (including teasers) will be unboxed.
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From the on-line description for tonight’s episode:





















The Variable
Daniel Faraday comes clean about what he knows of the island.

Some useful Café Society links are given below:

Thread index for Season 1 Episodes: 1 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=277083) 2 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=278382) 3 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=279542) 4 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=280792) 5 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=281998) 6 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=283328) 7 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=284665) 8 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=285925) 9 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=287237) 10 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=289514) 11 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=290718) 12 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=295320) 13 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=296591) 14 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=297760) 15 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=301602) 16 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=302710) 17 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=303909) 18 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=304986) 19 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=309511) 20 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=310613) 21 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=315048) 22 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=316088) 23 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=317139) 24 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=318051)

Thread index for Season 2 Episodes: 1 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=335991) 2 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=337167) 3 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=338307) 4 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=339366) 5 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=340432) 6 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=343878) 7 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=345144) 8 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=346239) 9 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=347177) 10 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=353542) 11 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=354691) 12 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=355716) 13 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=357834) 14 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=359015) 15 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=361048) 16 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=363982) 17 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=365010) 18 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=366081) 19 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=367064) 20 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=370033) 21 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=371010) 22 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=371991)

Thread index for Season 3 episodes: 1 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=390771) 2 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=391722) 3 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=392661) 4 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=393629) 5 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=394542) 6 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=395368) 7 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=407398) 8 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=408446) 9 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=409378) 10 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=410362) 11 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=411321) 12 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=412292) 13 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=413323) 14 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=414347) 15 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=415259) 16 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=416195) 17 ( http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=417197) 18 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=418222) 19 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=419145) 20 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=420116) 21 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=421113) 22 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=421996)

Thread index for Season 4 episodes: 1 ( http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=453462) 2 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=454618) 3 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=455630) 4 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=456811) 5 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=457801) 6 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=458668) 7 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=459619) 8 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=460501) 9 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=465277) 10 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=466249) 11 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=467236) 12 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=468178)

Thread index for Season 5 episodes 1-2 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=502879) 3 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=504002) 4 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=505081) 5 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=506072) 6 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=507159) 7 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=508184) 8 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=509123) 9 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=510798) 10 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=511706) 11 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=512553) 12 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=513403) 13 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=514223)

The Official Lost Jargon Thread (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=286221)

Official “Lost” Questions Thread Season 1 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=284542), Season 2 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=336040), Season 3 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=390739)

Here are some interesting external links:

The Tail Section (http://www.thetailsection.com/): Excellent site for still frame photos of key scenes, along with some good analysis. But… beware of spoilers!

Sledgeweb’s Lost… Stuff (http://lost.cubit.net/): Pretty good site, but again beware of spoilers. I use it mainly for the Timeline section, which is an incredibly detailed breakdown of “how long since…?” for almost anything you can think of (pre- and post-plane crash).

Door Map from Episode 2.17 (http://www.thetailsection.com/uploaded_images/cleanwall-707484.jpg). A nicely cleaned up version of the diagram Locke saw while pinned under the lockdown doors. No spoilers.

Lostpedia ( http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Main_Page): The wikipedia of Lost information. Quite a comprehensive site, but beware of spoilers!

ThEmIsFiTiShErE (http://themisfitishere.blogspot.com/): The Misfit offers his whacky commentary on “Lost”. Is he a nut-case or a clever insider? Careful, though, possible spoilers.
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So tonight after the President talks about his first 100 days in office, we get the 100th episode of "Lost". Coincidence? Bah! This has all been planned out long before. I'll be interested to see how the press conference ties in. And how did they get the President to play along?

Faraday is back and our episode title refers back to The Constant. I'm avoiding spoilers and speculation, so I'll see you guys after the show.

[Shoeless]

So tonight after the President talks about his first 100 days in office, we get the 100th episode of "Lost". Coincidence? Bah! This has all been planned out long before. I'll be interested to see how the press conference ties in. And how did they get the President to play along?

Somebody will ask him a difficult question, and he'll start by saying "Well, it's complicated..." and then a flaming microbus will careen through the press room and everyone will forget what the question was.

[Hampshire]

Since the episode is named "The Variable" I thought it would be a good idea to read the recap of "The Constant". Probably the most significant take-away:

Eloise (the rat's) brain short-circuited, she couldn't tell the difference between the past, the present and the future as she didn't have anything to attach herself to: she did not have a constant. Daniel tells Desmond about the need for him to have a constant, something that is present in both times and that he sincerely cares about and can recognize. Desmond grabs the phone and calls his constant, Penny, but the number has been disconnected.

[cmkeller]

You sorta stopped short there.

Desmond then found Penny's father, got Penny's current address from him, went to her home and got her to give him her phone number, along with a promise to not change it before the future date that Desmond's mind keeps shifting back to (December 24, 2004). Desmond returns to 2004, Sayid fixes the ship's phone and manages to get a call through to Penny, and Desmond is once again anchored properly in time.

[TooSchoolforCool]

Honestly, the only reason I haven't committed suicide yet is that I want to know how Lost ends.

I'm curious to see how they'll deal with the inherent contradictions between "Whatever Happened, Happened" and Desmond's odd immunity. As time travel theories go, the idea that a time traveling Faraday can talk to Desmond in the past and then Desmond will suddenly remember it RIGHT when the TELEVISION audience tunes in to watch him remember it is pretty damn weird. I mean, really, why did Desmond remember that time-change right at that moment? The ONLY thing that actually connects those two events in terms of timing (Faraday talking to Desmond outside the hatch and Desmond waking up with the memory of Faraday telling him to find Eloise Hawking) is the fact that the producers put those two scenes right after one another in their own storytelling.

Pretty effin' weird, no?

And then there's the issue of Faraday himself. We now know that he met Desmond in the past. But at least in Season 4, he doesn't seem to remember it, though it's in his journal. The producers have hinted a little at this, saying that maybe the Island "healed" Faraday's memory. But this is all turning into a big confusing clusterfuck as far as I can tell. And I'm super eager to find out if they can figure out some way for it all to make sense.

Will we find out tonight?

Or will my not killing myself have all been in vain?

[Meltdown]

The ONLY thing that actually connects those two events in terms of timing (Faraday talking to Desmond outside the hatch and Desmond waking up with the memory of Faraday telling him to find Eloise Hawking) is the fact that the producers put those two scenes right after one another in their own storytelling.



I think there may be slightly more of a connection, if you want to consider relative time. For example, let's say that I have a friend who has terminal cancer and has exactly one year to live. If he leaves for Peru today to live out his life, I will mourn his passing on April 29, 2010, because I know that he just died.

Now, let's say that my friend has figured out how to go back 100 years into the past. We say our goodbyes, and he leaves April 29, 2009 for April 29, 1909. One year then passes for both of us, and he dies on April 29, 1910, but he would have died on April 29, 2010. On April 29, 2010 I mourn his passing because I know that, for him, he had just lived one year and died, even though it's not the same year that I lived.

When Faraday talked to Desmond in the past, for Faraday it was 2 years (or whatever it was) since he had last seem Desmond. Desmond remembered it (or dreamt about it) at the same moment in relative time.

Whether that's at all material to the storyline, or makes any sense, I cannot really say. But I think there's a connection there that is greater than just the storytellers placing two scenes together.

[mshar253]

The ONLY thing that actually connects those two events in terms of timing (Faraday talking to Desmond outside the hatch and Desmond waking up with the memory of Faraday telling him to find Eloise Hawking) is the fact that the producers put those two scenes right after one another in their own storytelling.

This doesn't have a whole lot to do with what you're saying, but if you remember in "Flashes Before Your Eyes," there was a scene in which the camera focuses on a digital clock that's saying "8:15." Who cares? It's obvious that there will be two 8:15s everyday. I guess it would make a little more sense if something of particular importance -- and something extraordinarily rare, like a terrorist attack -- happened at that exact time, but that's something that has bothered me for a while because it seemed pretty idiotic.

[TooSchoolforCool]

Whether that's at all material to the storyline, or makes any sense, I cannot really say. But I think there's a connection there that is greater than just the storytellers placing two scenes together.

It's a decent theory at least, though it certainly makes little sense in terms of "whatever happened, happened" unless we stipulate that only MEMORIES can be changed, and they only become memories after a certain amount of time after two people's timelines diverged.

[borschevsky]

I'm curious to see how they'll deal with the inherent contradictions between "Whatever Happened, Happened" and Desmond's odd immunity. As time travel theories go, the idea that a time traveling Faraday can talk to Desmond in the past and then Desmond will suddenly remember it RIGHT when the TELEVISION audience tunes in to watch him remember it is pretty damn weird. I mean, really, why did Desmond remember that time-change right at that moment? The ONLY thing that actually connects those two events in terms of timing (Faraday talking to Desmond outside the hatch and Desmond waking up with the memory of Faraday telling him to find Eloise Hawking) is the fact that the producers put those two scenes right after one another in their own storytelling.Yeah, this doesn't seem to make much sense. I think the explanation (if one is ever given) will be along the lines of "the island made it happen" for course-correction or some such. We have already seen where the island wouldn't let Michael (or Jack) commit suicide while they were still necessary. So Desmond might be similar; he needs to remember exactly when he did so he'll arrive to find Eloise just as Ben and Jack do, and events will continue on so the O6 get on the Ajira flight and end up in 1977.

The theory about the memories having to "sync up" for the people's relative timelines is a good one, but I can't find a way to make the timing work.

This doesn't have a whole lot to do with what you're saying, but if you remember in "Flashes Before Your Eyes," there was a scene in which the camera focuses on a digital clock that's saying "8:15." Who cares? It's obvious that there will be two 8:15s everyday. I guess it would make a little more sense if something of particular importance -- and something extraordinarily rare, like a terrorist attack -- happened at that exact time, but that's something that has bothered me for a while because it seemed pretty idiotic.It's just an instance of the numbers, right? They throw in these number references all the time.

[Merijeek]

Honestly, the only reason I haven't committed suicide yet is that I want to know how Lost ends.

I'm curious to see how they'll deal with the inherent contradictions between "Whatever Happened, Happened" and Desmond's odd immunity. As time travel theories go, the idea that a time traveling Faraday can talk to Desmond in the past and then Desmond will suddenly remember it RIGHT when the TELEVISION audience tunes in to watch him remember it is pretty damn weird. I mean, really, why did Desmond remember that time-change right at that moment? The ONLY thing that actually connects those two events in terms of timing (Faraday talking to Desmond outside the hatch and Desmond waking up with the memory of Faraday telling him to find Eloise Hawking) is the fact that the producers put those two scenes right after one another in their own storytelling.


Now, I'm not going to claim that the Lost writers have actually thought about this...

But actually, those events fit with each other in two ways.

First, yes, it was because the producers put those scenes together.

But...

Second, Desmond remembered Daniel's message at the time that DANIEL was doing it, if Daniel had been in his right time.

So, it's T+3 hours, meaning Our Heroes have been bouncing around time for 3 hours (from their perspective). At that point, Daniel talks to Desmond in 2001. But, while Daniel is back in time, for him, T+3 SHOULD be 2007+3 hours. So, Desmond remembers it at T+3, which for him is now 2007+3 hours.

Hmm...

Maybe I need to draw someone a diagram?

-Joe

[Merijeek]

This doesn't have a whole lot to do with what you're saying, but if you remember in "Flashes Before Your Eyes," there was a scene in which the camera focuses on a digital clock that's saying "8:15." Who cares? It's obvious that there will be two 8:15s everyday. I guess it would make a little more sense if something of particular importance -- and something extraordinarily rare, like a terrorist attack -- happened at that exact time, but that's something that has bothered me for a while because it seemed pretty idiotic.

Two things:

First, 8 and 15 are two of "the numbers".

Second, that was the crappiest preview..."Kirk runs from monster one and it gets eaten by monster two and then Kirk runs from monster two."

Bleh.

-Joe

[mshar253]

I know they were the numbers. My point was that, in that context, it didn't mean anything at all. They were just numbers on the clock that the director of the episode decided to focus in on.

[Merijeek]

I know they were the numbers. My point was that, in that context, it didn't mean anything at all. They were just numbers on the clock that the director of the episode decided to focus in on.

I think it was just more of the "These creepy numbers are everywhere" stuff.

Oh, and I love Juliet. "Why do you need to know that, Daniel?". And she actually EXPECTED AN ANSWER.

-Joe

[Merijeek]

8:37CST prediction - Daniel is on a suicide mission and probably won't be getting out of this episode alive.

-Joe

[Dewey Finn]

During the discussion in the house about what to do now that they've got that guy trussed up in the closet, I so wanted someone to say that we've got to go back to the future.

[Merijeek]

During the discussion in the house about what to do now that they've got that guy trussed up in the closet, I so wanted someone to say that we've got to go back to the future.

Once again, Jack and Kate screw all the people who DON'T have their heads jammed up their asses...

-Joe

[MyFootsZZZ]

I'm not HUGE on LOST, but if they change the past, isn't it likely none of them would exist? Let along getting into a plane crash?

[Alias]

I'm not HUGE on LOST, but if they change the past, isn't it likely none of them would exist? Let along getting into a plane crash?

I don't see how changing the past would prevent them from existing, it would just change their pasts from the moment they boarded the plane.

[MyFootsZZZ]

Why? Even the smallest change could alter everything. Right?

[enalzi]

They won't change the past.
No matter what Daniel thinks now, they can't and they won't.

Also, I totally called Dan being Widmore's son.

[MyFootsZZZ]

But his mother said she didn't know how things will turn out with Desmond, right?

[Merijeek]

But his mother said she didn't know how things will turn out with Desmond, right?

There is no reason to believe she would have any idea.

She would know in general when Daniel would die, of course...but unless another time traveler tells her something, she won't know anything else.

-Joe

[MyFootsZZZ]

Wouldn't they, themselves know that?

[enalzi]

Wouldn't they, themselves know that?

...what?

[Merijeek]

...what?

Clearly.

-Joe

[MyFootsZZZ]

He's trying to change the future, right? If you go back in time changing variables, wouldn't the whole equation be different? As in the butterfly effect?

Each one of their parents would have to meet and fornicate and all that stuff the exact same time...
At least the ones not born yet

[Merijeek]

He's trying to change the future, right? If you go back in time changing variables, wouldn't the whole equation be different? As in the butterfly effect?

Each one of their parents would have to meet and fornicate and all that stuff on the exact same time... and such and such.

Sure, which is probably one of the reasons that Daniel had always operated on the "what happened, happened" theory.

However, I think all of our cast was over 30, which means that they were all already conceived. So, no chance of interrupting Daddy Widmore at exactly the wrong moment...

-Joe

[MyFootsZZZ]

ok, thanks

[well he's back]

I am going to miss Daniel.

Juliet & Sawyer - yes. stay together. let true love conquer. In other words, I really like them together.

[Monstre]

Second, Desmond remembered Daniel's message at the time that DANIEL was doing it, if Daniel had been in his right time.

So, it's T+3 hours, meaning Our Heroes have been bouncing around time for 3 hours (from their perspective). At that point, Daniel talks to Desmond in 2001. But, while Daniel is back in time, for him, T+3 SHOULD be 2007+3 hours. So, Desmond remembers it at T+3, which for him is now 2007+3 hours.

Hmm...

Maybe I need to draw someone a diagram?

Just starting the show now -- had to record it, so I'm a few hours behind you guys.

So I don't know if anybody has yet addressed the above or not -- but it sounds like what Meltdown was proposing in Post #6.

However, I don't think the relative timelines match up that way. T+3 should not be 2007+3 hours, because they started bouncing around in time at the end of 2004 (100 or so days after the Oceanic crash).

Daniel and Desmond were both in the "present" during season 4 -- when the freighter was docked off the coast. This was 100 days after the crash. Desmond left the island at the end of 2004 with the Oceanic 6. Daniel stayed on island and started bouncing in time.

However, the island folks were just bouncing around for a matter of hours or perhaps days, when Daniel knocked on the hatch door to encounter Past-Desmond. Call this T+3 hours. Desmond, at "T", is still in 2004, perhaps getting rescued by Penny's boat. Instead he remembers this past incident three years later in 2007.

I was going to come in and propose the same kind of relative timeline idea -- but the problem is that even the relative times don't seem to sync up.

[Monstre]

Second, that was the crappiest preview..."Kirk runs from monster one and it gets eaten by monster two and then Kirk runs from monster two."
Seconded. All that made me think of was two Jedi and Jar-Jar in the underwater speeder, running from the sea monsters. I have no need for that in Trek.

[Merijeek]

Just starting the show now -- had to record it, so I'm a few hours behind you guys.

So I don't know if anybody has yet addressed the above or not -- but it sounds like what Meltdown was proposing in Post #6.

However, I don't think the relative timelines match up that way. T+3 should not be 2007+3 hours, because they started bouncing around in time at the end of 2004 (100 or so days after the Oceanic crash).

Daniel and Desmond were both in the "present" during season 4 -- when the freighter was docked off the coast. This was 100 days after the crash. Desmond left the island at the end of 2004 with the Oceanic 6. Daniel stayed on island and started bouncing in time.

However, the island folks were just bouncing around for a matter of hours or perhaps days, when Daniel knocked on the hatch door to encounter Past-Desmond. Call this T+3 hours. Desmond, at "T", is still in 2004, perhaps getting rescued by Penny's boat. Instead he remembers this past incident three years later in 2007.

I was going to come in and propose the same kind of relative timeline idea -- but the problem is that even the relative times don't seem to sync up.

Curses. You're right.

-Joe

[Monstre]

Thoughts while watching...

hahahaha -- "Welcome to the meeting, Twitchy."

Radzinsky is really eager to shoot people... ever since we met him earlier this season.

Doesn't seem like Kate would be interested in going along with Daniel's plan to stop the current chain of events from occurring (and having their plane never crash). After all, on Flight 815, Kate was in custody of a U.S. Marshall (Mars), and who knows if her trial then would have turned out the same way as it did when she was one of the Oceanic 6. I would think that her current life is better, even if she's on the island.

Who's the redhead in the hospital? ("Your husband is in the recovery room, he's doing fine.") She looks familiar. Have we seen her before?

Did Widmore say "He's my son, too"? So why are there three last names in the family, then?

Wow.... Mom shot him.

[Merijeek]

Wow.... Mom shot him.

Gives a whole new meaning to mom saying, "Daniel Faraday, I brought you into this world and I can take you out of it!", don't it?

Oh, and a little advice for anyone in a similar situation - don't stick your gun in the face of the unarmed guy and turn your back on a CAMP FULL OF ARMED PEOPLE. This has been Joe's "basic survival for non-fools" lesson of the day.

-Joe

[Monstre]

Why? Even the smallest change could alter everything. Right?
Only if somebody steps on that butterfly that was flapping its wings over there.

And wow, assuming Daniel is definitely toast here (hey, we saw little Ben get shot the other week), that's going to be a pretty pointless death. He came back to accomplish something, and all he accomplished was taking a bullet. I was really wondering why he was going with the point-the-gun-at-the-Others-and-threaten-them-even-though-they-are-already-surrounding-me-and-I-can-only-look-in-one-direction strategy, and not lower the gun and talk to Richard, because he would be sure to remember Daniel after he threw out the "hydrogen bomb I told you to bury" comment.

[Monstre]

Curses. You're right.
I know. Sometimes, it IS a curse. :D

[enalzi]

Doesn't seem like Kate would be interested in going along with Daniel's plan to stop the current chain of events from occurring (and having their plane never crash). After all, on Flight 815, Kate was in custody of a U.S. Marshall (Mars), and who knows if her trial then would have turned out the same way as it did when she was one of the Oceanic 6. I would think that her current life is better, even if she's on the island.



I think one of the points they're going to make is that all their lives are better because of the island, (except for, you know, all those dead people) so they'll end up not doing it.

[Monstre]

I think one of the points they're going to make is that all their lives are better because of the island, (except for, you know, all those dead people) so they'll end up not doing it.

Well, THEIR lives are better, yes. And I suppose folks like Shannon and Boone just aren't going to get to cast a vote.

after all, ACORN has no island chapter... :D

[fiddlesticks]

Oh, Daniel Faraday, how I'll miss your non-explanatory explanations...if the writers let you die that is. The wound was right in the Hollywood "semi-quick death zone"...not close enough to the heart for sudden death, but not far enough away so that the character can't get any last words off. Can Otherization raise the dead? Perhaps we'll find out later in the season.

I was trying to figure out Daniel's age during the episode...he was a professor in 1996 when he met Desmond. His super-genius perhaps allows that he got his doctorate at around age 18, ...meaning Daniel could have been conceived after he was shot...but the timeline is pretty tight. His gift from being born on the island must be his super-math skills much like Miles' ghost skills...

[TooSchoolforCool]

Can't decide whether that was a game changer or not.

I think given the fact that Eloise does NOT try to warn Daniel that he will die, that this means that the past cannot be changed, and Daniel's babbling about variables was just his sad desperate hope to change things.

In which case, I can't really say that this ep measured up to the Constant in the way that the producers promised. It was a really fun ep, as most of this Season has been, but it didn't really have enough time to build the sort of emotional resonance that The Constant did because it had too many other things to accomplish at the same time. Very sad for Daniel though. And Eloise now seems like less of a nasty, horrid bitch: or at least now she has a good excuse for it.

[TooSchoolforCool]

And for anyone who gets super pissed at obvious chances for big explanations being blown, this ep had it in spades. A million points at which Daniel could have explained what the hell Dharma was all about or people could have asked questions, and they didn't.

[Monstre]

I don't think they'll change things. Besides, the "variables" (the people with free will) already made their choices in the past -- they are just viewing it from their present perspective now. I do still think that the Incident will be what gets them back to their own time somehow (I predicted this a few weeks ago, and I still think it's going to be the case).

Looks to me like the rest of the season will be covering the "next 4 hours" of island time in 1977. Because Daniel's claim that the release of energy is going to happen in 4 hours -- well, that pretty much sounds worthy of getting named "The Incident". Maybe starting with this episode, they should have started with "events occur in real time". ;)

[randwill]

Mathew Fox said on Letterman that the cliff-hanger at the end of the season will be big. So I guess it'll end just before or just after the 'energy release.'

[Monstre]

So I guess it'll end just before or just after the 'energy release.'
Heh. Energy release...

I just had this flash where the island is somehow "alive", and the Dharma drillers accidentally hit its G-spot.

[enalzi]

I was trying to figure out Daniel's age during the episode...he was a professor in 1996 when he met Desmond. His super-genius perhaps allows that he got his doctorate at around age 18, ...meaning Daniel could have been conceived after he was shot...but the timeline is pretty tight. His gift from being born on the island must be his super-math skills much like Miles' ghost skills...

I don't think that Daniel was born on the island. He was the only one not getting nosebleeds.

[Yeeter]

I'm thinking that Eloise killing future Daniel happened, happened. How did she know whether Desmond got engaged to Penny or not? I'm thinking it's because she had Future Daniel's notebook that spelled out all the things that happened (in the future). And when Penny asked if Desmond was going to be all right in the hospital Eloise replied something like "I don't know anything that happens after now." Because Present Daniel has died in the past and isn't taking notes any longer." But because he died, Past Eloise has his notes on the Future.

What do you mean I'm not being clear?

[Johnny Q]

I wonder if someone's going to swipe Desmond's kid in order to make him go along with whatever business the Island still has for him. Knowing these writers, the whole "the nurse will look after your kid" thing raises a few suspicions.

[Indistinguishable]

Especially because, hell, why not bring the kid in with you to see his dad? It just didn't ring true to me (but what do I know?).

[jackdavinci]

Pretty much everything that got screwed up involved Daniel waving around a gun.

When he was saying they could change things so the plane doesn't crash I was thinking "well that wouldn't really work out in Kate's favor now would it?" I wonder if this will cause a conflict. I'd say Kate, Locke, and Rose were significantly advantaged by crashing on the island. Obviously all those who died were severely disadvantaged. I'd say Sun and Jin benefitted as well. Jack and Hurley seem to be somewhat neutral, though they've both experienced some personal growth. Sayid seems to have been disadvantaged. The freighter people never would have come to the island. Desmond wouldn't have been in the Swan, but would he still have wrecked on the island? Alex wouldn't have been killed, but would she have met her mother?

[Shoeless]

Mathew Fox said on Letterman that the cliff-hanger at the end of the season will be big. So I guess it'll end just before or just after the 'energy release.'

Didn't someone mention in the Lost thread a week or two ago that the "secret code word" for the season finale plot device was something like "the fork in the outlet"? So yeah, I'm guessing you are right.

[Gfactor]

Daniel is apparently an idiot when it comes to IRL tactics.

1. "Hi Dr. Chang, I'm from the future and this is your son." That's your play? You thought he'd just accept that?

2. Why walk into New Otherton brandishing a gun? Alpert knows you. Nobody is shooting. Brilliant.

[Gfactor]

Access code 141717. Meaning?

[Meltdown]

I'm thinking that Eloise killing future Daniel happened, happened. How did she know whether Desmond got engaged to Penny or not? I'm thinking it's because she had Future Daniel's notebook that spelled out all the things that happened (in the future). And when Penny asked if Desmond was going to be all right in the hospital Eloise replied something like "I don't know anything that happens after now." Because Present Daniel has died in the past and isn't taking notes any longer." But because he died, Past Eloise has his notes on the Future.

What do you mean I'm not being clear?

Actually, that makes perfect sense to me.

Speculation based on the preview for next week's episode:

It looks like Jack finds Daniel's notebook, and is contemplating fulfilling Daniel's plan. One could easily imagine a scenario where it ends up with Eloise. So while it seems that Daniel's coming back to the island just to get killed was meaningless, his true purpose was to bring that notebook back to the island's past.

[Meltdown]

I was going to come in and propose the same kind of relative timeline idea -- but the problem is that even the relative times don't seem to sync up.


Oh, then, well...

I got nothin'.

[Caricci]

I loved how Hurley clarified when our gang met Eloise: "1954? You mean Fonzie times?"

I don't know what could be less evocative of the leather-jacketed one than the Island, but, yes, Fonzie times indeed.

And, of course, whoever here pointed out that Ellie the young guard in Fonzie-era New Otherton must be Eloise was right!

[enalzi]

Daniel is apparently an idiot when it comes to IRL tactics.

1. "Hi Dr. Chang, I'm from the future and this is your son." That's your play? You thought he'd just accept that?

2. Why walk into New Otherton brandishing a gun? Alpert knows you. Nobody is shooting. Brilliant.

1. He said he just needed Chang to do what he was supposed to do, not necessarily believe he's a time traveler. He wasn't trying to change the past that time. That was a "What Happened, Happened" moment.

2. I think he figured out that his mom being all about destiny was due to the fact that she knew that he came back to the past. He assumed that she would have told him if he had been shot. That's what the whole "You knew what would happen" line was for.

[Jas09]

2. I think he figured out that his mom being all about destiny was due to the fact that she knew that he came back to the past. He assumed that she would have told him if he had been shot. That's what the whole "You knew what would happen" line was for.Exactly. He knew (or at least strongly suspected) that his Mom was on the island and that she remembered meeting him there. His logical conclusion was that he was completely safe at least until he met her (because you can't change the past). What he didn't count on was meeting her after being shot in the back by her - a fact he probably figured she would have mentioned before sending him there...

I'm still trying to figure out whether he actually believed his speech to Jack and Kate about changing the past or if he was just trying to make sure everybody "did what the needed to do". He certainly seemed to try to change things by talking to little Charlotte - but on the other hand he also *knows* that he tried to convince her to stay away (because she told him that before she died). So by trying to change the past he was actually just fulfilling it... or something.

[Gfactor]

So by trying to change the past he was actually just fulfilling it... or something.

This is a recurring theme. Guy knows x will happen, acts to prevent it, and actually causes it.

[Gfactor]

1. He said he just needed Chang to do what he was supposed to do, not necessarily believe he's a time traveler. He wasn't trying to change the past that time. That was a "What Happened, Happened" moment.

I think this is right as a matter of Lost canon. But I find it a pretty weak reason to do it. Especially if "whatever happened, happened." If it's already determined, why do extra stuff? Unless, he actually caused it in the first place.

2. I think he figured out that his mom being all about destiny was due to the fact that she knew that he came back to the past. He assumed that she would have told him if he had been shot. That's what the whole "You knew what would happen" line was for.

All the more reason to calmly walk in and speak his truth. If he's going to live no matter what, why not just ask to see Alpert again. Alpert would recognize him. They're a lot less likely to shoot a guy who isn't brandishing a firearm.

[wasson]

Why isn't 1977 Daniel on the island? His mom and dad are both there, and it seems he'd probably be around 10 years old in 1977. As mentioned above, his lack of nosebleeds means he probably hadn't ever been there before his freighter arrived. So what happened there?

[Meltdown]

Why isn't 1977 Daniel on the island? His mom and dad are both there, and it seems he'd probably be around 10 years old in 1977. As mentioned above, his lack of nosebleeds means he probably hadn't ever been there before his freighter arrived. So what happened there?

Do we know Dad is there? Have we seen him in 1977? During Ben's storyline, when he takes over the leadership from Widmore and sends him home on the sub, he makes reference to Widmore's leaving the island as one of the reasons he's not fit to be the leader. Perhaps Widmore is off island in 1977. Perhaps he brought Daniel with him.

That is if Daniel was born by 1977 -- as pointed out before the timeline makes it seem likely that he was, but it's not impossible for him to be born a year later.

[enalzi]

I'm still trying to figure out whether he actually believed his speech to Jack and Kate about changing the past or if he was just trying to make sure everybody "did what the needed to do". He certainly seemed to try to change things by talking to little Charlotte - but on the other hand he also *knows* that he tried to convince her to stay away (because she told him that before she died). So by trying to change the past he was actually just fulfilling it... or something.

I think he's just getting desperate

Unless, he actually caused it in the first place.


Exactly. In 1977, Daniel Faraday ALWAYS told Chang that he's from the future and told him to evacuate the island.

[Gfactor]

Do we know Dad is there? Have we seen him in 1977? During Ben's storyline, when he takes over the leadership from Widmore and sends him home on the sub, he makes reference to Widmore's leaving the island as one of the reasons he's not fit to be the leader. Perhaps Widmore is off island in 1977. Perhaps he brought Daniel with him.

That is if Daniel was born by 1977 -- as pointed out before the timeline makes it seem likely that he was, but it's not impossible for him to be born a year later.

Nah. He spoke to young Ben after Alpert fixed him in the Temple. He's around, probably shagging Ellie.

[MichaelQReilly]

I actually love the job the writers are doing with the whole fate vs. free will/ man of science man of faith issue. Hawking killed Daniel in her past, which means he had to have gone back and gotten killed. But him getting killed was in his own future, so did he really have the choice to do it? Or is it in effect that his free will choices led to his fate? In other words, whatever happened happened, but it happened because of the choices.

[TooSchoolforCool]

I'm thinking that Eloise killing future Daniel happened, happened. How did she know whether Desmond got engaged to Penny or not? I'm thinking it's because she had Future Daniel's notebook that spelled out all the things that happened (in the future). And when Penny asked if Desmond was going to be all right in the hospital Eloise replied something like "I don't know anything that happens after now." Because Present Daniel has died in the past and isn't taking notes any longer." But because he died, Past Eloise has his notes on the Future.

Sounds about right, but now it makes me wonder why she spent time trying to convince Desmond not to buy the ring. Just like Daniel, there's that unavoidable element of this "trying to make sure things happen as they are supposed to" thing that doesn't really make sense. Why would you have to TRY to make what happened happened? Why wouldn't it just happen whatever you do (because whatever it is you do is what led to it all happening the way its supposed to happen anyway)

That Eloise seems so sure that you can't change things (universe course corrects) implies to me, now, that she did try and change things, horrified that she had killed her son, but that she eventually learned it was impossible. Hence her EMOTIONAL attitude towards Desmond. But it still doesn't explain why she would spend time explaining any of it to him or try to make sure he went to the Island. It certainly doesn't explain why she'd be so gung ho about maintaining a chain of events that lead to her son dying. You'd think she'd just be passively resigned to it, even if she did want it to play out a different way in her heart of hearts.

[Gfactor]

It certainly doesn't explain why she'd be so gung ho about maintaining a chain of events that lead to her son dying. You'd think she'd just be passively resigned to it, even if she did want it to play out a different way in her heart of hearts.

Maybe she and Smokey had a tête-à-tête similar to the one Ben had with Smokey.

[TooSchoolforCool]

So given that the producers have gone to such lengths, and risked such audience annoyance, to prevent characters from telling each other about the Dharma Initiative's big secrets, should we all expect that there really ARE some big reveals there? Or is it inconsequential? I mean Daniel presumably met the DeGroots or even Hanso and should know a HECK of a lot of Dharma history besides just the Swan. So he gets killed off before anyone has a chance to shake him down (though of course, there's that "but they were walking through the jungle for hours and could have talked then! problem) for info.

I understand why that might be frustrating to people if they focus on it. Personally, its a suspension of disbelief I find easy to go with just because the show has been so fun. But they must be hiding SOMETHING behind all this subterfuge about Dharma.

[wasson]

Do we know Dad is there? Have we seen him in 1977? During Ben's storyline, when he takes over the leadership from Widmore and sends him home on the sub, he makes reference to Widmore's leaving the island as one of the reasons he's not fit to be the leader. Perhaps Widmore is off island in 1977. Perhaps he brought Daniel with him.

That is if Daniel was born by 1977 -- as pointed out before the timeline makes it seem likely that he was, but it's not impossible for him to be born a year later.Widmore leaving on the sub was actually relatively recent if memory serves, like 1996 or so. It was after the purge and Ben had a 4-5 year old Alex with him immediately before going to the sub.

As far has Daniel being born 1978 or later... seems like kind of a stretch. The actor was born in 1969 and looks in his late 30's or early 40's. Being born in 1978 would have put him at 26 years old when he arrived from the freighter (in 2004)... I don't buy that.

But then again, according to when Ethan was born he was 27 when he arrived at the crash site and he looked close to 40 too, so maybe the producers are just hoping we won't notice how old people look?

[mshar253]

I'd be willing to wager that this season's finale either reveals that Christian is on the island in 1977 for some shocking reason, OR all the Losties get killed as a result of the incident, leading to Adam and Eve (Sawyer/Juliet) decaying in the jungle. Then the sixth season will focus on flashbacks about why these individual people had to be the ones who went to the island.

That is all.

[msmith537]

Radzinsky is really eager to shoot people... ever since we met him earlier this season.


That guy is such a dick. I hope he gets jacked up by Sawyer.

[TooSchoolforCool]

Didn't someone mention in the Lost thread a week or two ago that the "secret code word" for the season finale plot device was something like "the fork in the outlet"? So yeah, I'm guessing you are right.

Note that the code words were nominated and voted for by fans who had no idea what was going to happen. The only nomination that the producers said was "oddly fitting" was something about a garden gnome or something.

Something I'm wondering: how in the heck would the Others EVER have supported Daniel's plan? As far as we know, their entire PURPOSE is to protect the Island. They're not going to let someone nuke it, and they certainly aren't going to participate: especially not when they have an easier alternative to try: attack the Swan dig before the drill hits "the energy."

Also, if they followed Daniel's instructions, it's currently buried in concrete. How is would ANYONE get to it, let alone get it near enough to the Swan site, in just four hours, even presuming that the Others WOULD help and happen to have a bulldozer around? Because I doubt Jack and Kate could carry the thing on their backs. Unless there's a lot more about the bomb's situation we don't know (like, it's already on a truck, or you can just blow it up in place and that's close enough to the Swan to do the trick) why would anyone think that this is an even PLAUSIBLE thing to attempt?

Some more things to think about:

We're still not sure what Daniel thinks he can change, and what he can't. We still don't know what else is in his notebook. For instance, he seemed to know exactly when Chang would be around (he's right on time). Maybe that's just from some Dharma schedule, but it sort of seems like he "knew" that Chang would arrive AND that Chang would refuse to listen to him. That implies that he wrote those events down in his notebook. But you'd think, in that case, the producers would then SHOW HIM DOING THAT so that the audience was clued in.

Daniel does act like he thinks he can stop the Incident. Wouldn't a more plausible way to try that, though, be to appeal directly to the big bosses in Ann Arbor? It would be easy for him to convince people he was from the future if he had enough time, and he had three years. So when did his big "you can change things" epiphany occur? Seems like it happened prior to his sub trip back, because that's the whole reason he came back. So did he try to appeal to the DeGroots? And how did that play out?

Is the reason that Daniel thinks he can change the Incident because his notebook stops recording anything past his return to the Island? Shouldn't that be a big tipoff for him that something is going to happen to him/the notebook?

Does (older) Eloise later rip pages out of the notebook before passing it on so that Daniel misses some crucial information? Was the notebook empty when she first gave it to him, or already filled in? Where does a physical object like a notebook even COME from if no one ever buys it from a store at any point?

[Meltdown]

Nah. He spoke to young Ben after Alpert fixed him in the Temple. He's around, probably shagging Ellie.

Whoops, that's right. Nevermind.

[TooSchoolforCool]

That guy is such a dick. I hope he gets jacked up by Sawyer.

We're pretty sure that his memory gets f'ed up at some point, given that his blast door map is such a work of vague and unreliable guesswork.

[Shoeless]

That guy is such a dick. I hope he gets jacked up by Sawyer.

Well, we do know he winds up dead eventually, if that's any satisfaction. Isn't he the one that was living in the Swan with Kelvin (before Desmond showed up) and blew his own brains out?

[enalzi]

We're still not sure what Daniel thinks he can change, and what he can't. We still don't know what else is in his notebook. For instance, he seemed to know exactly when Chang would be around (he's right on time). Maybe that's just from some Dharma schedule, but it sort of seems like he "knew" that Chang would arrive AND that Chang would refuse to listen to him. That implies that he wrote those events down in his notebook. But you'd think, in that case, the producers would then SHOW HIM DOING THAT so that the audience was clued in.


I'm thinking that when he first tried his time-travel machine on himself, it sent his mind forward in time. So he learned all that stuff that was going on, only to end up forgetting it. Which would explain why he was crying when he saw the footage of the plane wreckage. Subconsciously he knew that he was headed to the island.

We're pretty sure that his memory gets f'ed up at some point, given that his blast door map is such a work of vague and unreliable guesswork.
I bet the incident screws up his memory like Daniel's is.

I'm curious to how bad this incident will be. We know that Dharma keeps on working after it, and Chang is still alive afterwards (He was in the Pearl video in 1980) along with the Linuses, the others, and Horace.

And I'm wondering what the original purpose of the Swan was. The video said it was to "study" the electromagnetism, but I'm sure Dharma had bigger plans than just to study it. According to Daniel, the type of energy under the Swan is the same type as under the Orchid, just a lot more powerful. And the Orchid is powerful enough to move the island through time and space...

[enalzi]

Widmore leaving on the sub was actually relatively recent if memory serves, like 1996 or so. It was after the purge and Ben had a 4-5 year old Alex with him immediately before going to the sub.

As far has Daniel being born 1978 or later... seems like kind of a stretch. The actor was born in 1969 and looks in his late 30's or early 40's. Being born in 1978 would have put him at 26 years old when he arrived from the freighter (in 2004)... I don't buy that.

But then again, according to when Ethan was born he was 27 when he arrived at the crash site and he looked close to 40 too, so maybe the producers are just hoping we won't notice how old people look?

The actor who plays Miles is only a year younger than the actor who plays Daniel, and he's still a Baby. The actor who plays Ben was born in 1954, but little Ben seems to have been born mid-late 60's.

So either:
A) The producers are just squeezing the ages to make them fit
OR
B) We've got some time travel trouble going on. Maybe the Incident pushes the island ten years back in time, or slows time down on the island for a while.

[mswas]

Man there was one piece of absolutely abysmal writing. When Daniel's Mother told him to stop playing piano because it got in the way of being a good scientist. Everyone knows that music boosts intelligence.

[Fenris]

I'm curious to how bad this incident will be. We know that Dharma keeps on working after it, and Chang is still alive afterwards (He was in the Pearl video in 1980) along with the Linuses, the others, and Horace.

What I don't get is....why not shield/turn off all your electronic stuff, and just hit the failsafe and release the damned energy and not spend 20+ years pushing that button. All not-pushing it did was make the sky turn purple and fry electronics in a (say) 20 mile radius.

Also, I'm still thinking about this episode, but my first thought is that I was disappointed that after two seasons of Daniel whining "Whatever happened, happened", his big, shocking revelation was that "Whatever happened, happened...unless the power of the human heart changes things". Troo-Luv? C'mon.

Also, where is John/Ben/Sun? Also Rose/Bernard/Vincent?

[Morbo]

Why didn't they keep going in the Jeep? They're on a tight time schedule, there's only four hours to go...and they abandon the Jeep and start walking?! Lock that differential and take that thing as far into the jungle as it will go!

[well he's back]

Posted by FenrisWhat I don't get is....why not shield/turn off all your electronic stuff, and just hit the failsafe and release the damned energy and not spend 20+ years pushing that button. All not-pushing it did was make the sky turn purple and fry electronics in a (say) 20 mile radius.


This point really annoys me too. Any speculation/explanation out there?

[tds1273]

"Your mother's an Other?"

I think that everything that has happened before the time jumps started, before the island was 'moved', has all happened a thousand times already and it will happen a thousand more times, rather it has and will happen an infinite number of times.

Present Daniel, the one that went back to the island, the one that warned child Charlotte, the one that was waving the gun around and the one that was shot by his mom; he might have thought that he was trying to change things or do things different, but since the exact same events, conversations, and thoughts always happen to him, he will forever make the same decisions. Of course he, nor anyone else ftm, could ever know if anything is going to be different each time, because, as well as he can read the past and "get" what is happening to him, the future can still never be known from a first person perspective.

Same goes for the rest of the crew.

However, when Eloise visits Penny and Desmond and says for the first time in a long time she doesn't know what will happen next, it is because that is in post-move/present day time; it is off the infinitely repeating time loop that was created. No one, at least as far as we know yet, has ever looped over that period of time, so there is nothing to clue anyone into what will happen.

The thing that really throws me off is with the notebook. To me, it is a 'constant variable'. It would document every thing that has happened, but all the notes should remain there to be added upon during each subsequent cycle. It must keep getting destroyed or confiscated by the Island and its keepers at some point. Or for some reason Eloise always only keeps it for herself. I might have missed something, but I believe the book she gives Daniel is blank right?

I think that is all I got for now. Great episode though, definitely worthy of being the hundredth.

ETA: With the ages/time thing, was the difference in the speed of time on and off the island only during the jumps? I don't really feel like doing the math but could that explain why the ages, specifically Daniel's, are messed up?

[Gfactor]

Posted by Fenris

This point really annoys me too. Any speculation/explanation out there?

Here's my unscientific theory on this. Pushing the button releases a small amount of the energy. So 20 years of button pushes is about 97,397 individual pushes. That's enough to reduce the overall energy. Maybe 97,397 pushes were enough to make the release survivable.

[enalzi]

What I don't get is....why not shield/turn off all your electronic stuff, and just hit the failsafe and release the damned energy and not spend 20+ years pushing that button. All not-pushing it did was make the sky turn purple and fry electronics in a (say) 20 mile radius.


You're assuming that all the failsafe released an electromagnetic pulse. Which it didn't. All electronics kept working afterwards (the walkies, the computer at the flame). Really, we don't know what exactly the failsafe did, other than make the sky turn people, make the island visible briefly, and ruin communications. It also imploded the hatch and sent the hatch door flying across the island. Obviously, it released a hell of a lot of energy. It's possible that turning the key completely changed the electromagnetic field that surrounds the island.
Also, it's possible that Dharma wasn't sure what exactly would happen when the key was turned.

[Merijeek]

Posted by Fenris

This point really annoys me too. Any speculation/explanation out there?

Well, if we keep in mind what it did to Desmond and Radsinsky, we know it'll mess up your brain but good...

-Joe

[jackdavinci]

Why didn't they keep going in the Jeep? They're on a tight time schedule, there's only four hours to go...and they abandon the Jeep and start walking?! Lock that differential and take that thing as far into the jungle as it will go!

They specifically addressed that - Kate said that they could drive to the fence but from there is was walking. I don't think you could really get that far into the jungle in the Jeep unless there was already a path or the trees were very wide apart and there were no steep inclines.

[enalzi]

Speaking of the Jeep, where the hell did all the Dharma cars go? We've been to the barracks, but we've only seen one van.

[Alessan]

Well, if we keep in mind what it did to Desmond and Radsinsky, we know it'll mess up your brain but good...

-Joe
I think we've seen decisive proof that Radsinsky was messed up to begin with.


So given that the producers have gone to such lengths, and risked such audience annoyance, to prevent characters from telling each other about the Dharma Initiative's big secrets, should we all expect that there really ARE some big reveals there? Or is it inconsequential? I mean Daniel presumably met the DeGroots or even Hanso and should know a HECK of a lot of Dharma history besides just the Swan. So he gets killed off before anyone has a chance to shake him down (though of course, there's that "but they were walking through the jungle for hours and could have talked then! problem) for info.

I understand why that might be frustrating to people if they focus on it. Personally, its a suspension of disbelief I find easy to go with just because the show has been so fun. But they must be hiding SOMETHING behind all this subterfuge about Dharma.

I'm pretty much convinced at this point that Dharma knows absolutely nothing - that they're a bunch of hapless hippies traipsing around the jungle, dabbling in forces they barely comprehend. So far, I've seen nothing to contradict this.

[Peter Morris]

So, Desmond was going to use the atom bomb to blow up the hatch. What's the betting that the bomb will become the fail safe mechanism.

[Dilton Doiley,Philosopher King]

Does (older) Eloise later rip pages out of the notebook before passing it on so that Daniel misses some crucial information? Was the notebook empty when she first gave it to him, or already filled in? Where does a physical object like a notebook even COME from if no one ever buys it from a store at any point?

From the same place the compass came from.

[Morbo]

They specifically addressed that - Kate said that they could drive to the fence but from there is was walking. I don't think you could really get that far into the jungle in the Jeep unless there was already a path or the trees were very wide apart and there were no steep inclines.

Huh. Must've missed that. Was she wearing a sweaty white tank top while saying it?

[Johnny Q]

Well, if we keep in mind what it did to Desmond and Radsinsky, we know it'll mess up your brain but good...

-Joe


And Daniel either coincidentally or "Coincidentally" was working with the same stuff and gooified his own melon. Who suggested Danel's research? We know Wilmore paid for it, but did Daniel discover it on his own or was it "hinted" by his parents?

[duality72]

I was going to come in and propose the same kind of relative timeline idea -- but the problem is that even the relative times don't seem to sync up.

If you want to do further hand-waving, there is reason to believe that time progresses differently on the Island than the rest of the world, so that could account for relative timeline differences.

[Dewey Finn]

Did anyone else notice in one scene (I think the one where Widmore visited Daniel Faraday) that the current issue of Wired magazine (the issue guest-edited by JJ Abrams) was on the table?

[Indistinguishable]

J.J. Abrams is guest-editing the current issue of Wired, but I don't think that was the one shown. I think the one shown was the August 2003 issue (seen here (http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/11.08/)).

[mshar253]

I still don't understand why Dan was all goofy, like when he was crying when he saw the wreckage of the fake Oceanic 815. He was normal beforehand, right? When he was graduating from Oxford, for instance, he seemed fine. Was it explained when and how his memory got messed up? I am so confused.

[enalzi]

I still don't understand why Dan was all goofy, like when he was crying when he saw the wreckage of the fake Oceanic 815. He was normal beforehand, right? When he was graduating from Oxford, for instance, he seemed fine. Was it explained when and how his memory got messed up? I am so confused.

He said that he tested out his crazy time travel machine on himself before he tested it on his research assistant. Last time we saw her, her mind was jumping through time.

[TooSchoolforCool]

I'm pretty much convinced at this point that Dharma knows absolutely nothing - that they're a bunch of hapless hippies traipsing around the jungle, dabbling in forces they barely comprehend. So far, I've seen nothing to contradict this.

So far, I'm with you on that, as far as actual on screen evidence goes. But it seems like the producers are deliberately avoiding a fuller accounting of them for some reason. And I can't think of why that would be. They KNOW that it frustrates fans: they've even said so. But they're being coy about it all still.

And we know that many of them are in some way connected to deeper Island stuff. Horace has actual physical blueprints and maps for the cabin in his pocket when he dies, and Jacob and the cabin seem pretty fundamental to things. Chang doesn't die in the incident, but he somehow loses an arm, and the producers chose NOT to show him dead in purge. Why?

The DeGroots and Hanso are just too rich and influential to just vanish without a trace into the background of the story without some explanation. They, and what happened to them post Incident, and then post Dharma, has got to be explained SOMEHOW at some point. And I doubt it's all going to be incidental and without some significance to events.

[TooSchoolforCool]

Someone suggested this elsewhere: isn't it now pretty clear that the "statue" faction are Eloise goons?

Evidence:

1) Bram's kidnapping of Miles implies that he does not work for Widmore.
2) Widmore didn't seem to know that Ben and the others were going back to the Island (which seems odd: wasn't he tailing them all?) given that Ben's pre-beating gloating seemed to surprise him so maybe he didn't have time to get his people on the Aijira plane
3) Eloise is the only other major player who knows about the Island, the statue, and knows when the plane is leaving

Also, it's really interesting to try and figure out what Ben and Eloise know about each other and their motives. They have at least some sort of working relationship, but it doesn't seem like they trust each other. Does Ben know about the notebook or anything related to it? He probably knows that Daniel is her son from his research on the freight-ies, no?

[enalzi]

Someone suggested this elsewhere: isn't it now pretty clear that the "statue" faction are Eloise goons?

Evidence:

1) Bram's kidnapping of Miles implies that he does not work for Widmore.
2) Widmore didn't seem to know that Ben and the others were going back to the Island (which seems odd: wasn't he tailing them all?) given that Ben's pre-beating gloating seemed to surprise him so maybe he didn't have time to get his people on the Aijira plane
3) Eloise is the only other major player who knows about the Island, the statue, and knows when the plane is leaving

Also, it's really interesting to try and figure out what Ben and Eloise know about each other and their motives. They have at least some sort of working relationship, but it doesn't seem like they trust each other. Does Ben know about the notebook or anything related to it? He probably knows that Daniel is her son from his research on the freight-ies, no?

I'm still going with them being DHARMA coming back to the island. Eloise seems like she's a neutral party.

And I don't think Ben knew Dan was her son. He looked pretty shocked when Desmond said he was here to see Faraday's mother.

[TooSchoolforCool]

How would Dharma know when the Aijira plane was leaving though?

[enalzi]

How would Dharma know when the Aijira plane was leaving though?

Travelocity?

[mshar253]

How would Dharma know when the Aijira plane was leaving though?

Wasn't the place (in LA, I think) where Eloise was, with the pendulum thing, originally built by Dharma? Maybe they figured out all the equations as to where the island would be.

[TooSchoolforCool]

But that only raises the question as to why, if they're actually still around, they aren't at and using that station. Surely they have enough money and manpower to take out one old woman.

[Meltdown]

What if Eloise is working for/with Dharma?

Admittedly, there is no evidence for this. But consider: she and Widmore obviously had some sort of falling out. It doesn't appear that she was working with Ben. At some point she left Richard and the other Others (we don't know why or when). What if, sometime after the purge, she got together with whatever was left of Dharma, and realized they had a common goal -- to stop both Widmore AND Ben from letting their personal feud take down the island?

[enalzi]

Well, clearly the others have a lot of resources outside the island (Mitelos and all that). Even though Eloise doesn't seem to be affiliated with them, they could be protecting it. And we don't really know if Dharma has that many resources anymore. According to the online game, it started to shut down and lose money before the purge.

[Alessan]

Wasn't Mitelos Ben and Richard Alpert's people?

I think the fact that Hanso sold the Black Rock journal indicated that he and Dharma were washing their hands of the Island.

I also think that Ilana and the "Shadow of the Statue" gang (Shadowfolk?) are completely new players.

[Mama Zappa]

OK - so it's confirmed that Widmore is Daniel's father - I know that's been speculated before.

Then who is Penny's mother? Think Eloise and Widmore did a Parent Trap thing and divvied up the kids?

[Drunky Smurf]

*snip*

Then who is Penny's mother? Think Eloise and Widmore did a Parent Trap thing and divvied up the kids?

That is my thinking.

[Dazzling White Diamonds]

OK - so it's confirmed that Widmore is Daniel's father - I know that's been speculated before.

Then who is Penny's mother? Think Eloise and Widmore did a Parent Trap thing and divvied up the kids?When Widmore was exiled, didn't Ben say something along the lines that he (Widmore) had a child off-island? I took that to mean he had a child with a woman who was not an Other.

[Baldwin]

I don't think I've ever seen a clearer instance of explaining something to the audience (short of simply addressing the camera and saying, "For you folks at home . . ."), than when Faraday told Jack that there was no guarantee they wouldn't get killed, because "This is our present."

Faraday waving that gun around in the Others' camp made absolutely no sense. This show is occasionally awesome; so frequently crappy.

But there are larger issues: does everybody who comes to work for Dharma on the Island get his own house? Jack has a house to himself, and he's a janitor. Sweet!

[TooSchoolforCool]

I do have to admit: Daniel waving the gun was just inexcusably silly. The producers I suppose did their best by trying to set Daniel up as totally ignorant about guns, but really, that was just pathetic.

[Hampshire]

But there are larger issues: does everybody who comes to work for Dharma on the Island get his own house? Jack has a house to himself, and he's a janitor. Sweet!

Ha! Good question. Where DO all the Dharma people live? Dharmaville (according to Lostpedia) consists of 18 houses. There's more than 18 people living in Dharmatown right?

[Alessan]

I dunno - we already knew that Danial was emotionally unstable and had poor people skills. He was panicking, he was suffering from temporal dislocation, he may have been on the verge of a nervous breakdown - waving the gun around makes a weird sort of sense.

[Gfactor]

Ha! Good question. Where DO all the Dharma people live? Dharmaville (according to Lostpedia) consists of 18 houses. There's more than 18 people living in Dharmatown right?

Some of them seem to live at the stations--but maybe that's later. And either way, it doesn't account for the disparity between the number of individuals and the number of housing units.

[TooSchoolforCool]

The truly big problem is that both Dharma and the Others clearly had way more people living in the barracks than the few lostees who end up there in Season 4 with Locke... and yet those later lostees are forced to bunk up with each other.

[IvoryTowerDenizen]

Thought's while watching- apropos to nothing

The theme of parent child relationship (generally screwed up) keeps repeating:

Jack and his dad
Kate and her (step?)dad
Ben and his dad
Penny and her dad
Hurley and his dad (recently reconciled)
Miles and his dad
Dan and his mom and dad

Kate has to give up "her" child
Claire loses her child
Eloise kills her child
Sawyer and his daughter

More?

[Justin_Bailey]

Does (older) Eloise later rip pages out of the notebook before passing it on so that Daniel misses some crucial information? Was the notebook empty when she first gave it to him, or already filled in? Where does a physical object like a notebook even COME from if no one ever buys it from a store at any point?

Eloise did buy it from the store. It was a new notebook that she gave Daniel as a graduation gift.

[Gfactor]

It did look new. I wonder though, if maybe she wrote a little something in there before she gave it to him.

[PerditaX]

[QUOTE=Alessan
I think the fact that Hanso sold the Black Rock journal indicated that he and Dharma were washing their hands of the Island.[/QUOTE]

It suddenly occurred to me to wonder whether the Black Rock Journal is, in fact, Daniel's journal. That would be a really good explanation for why Widmore bought it!

[Alessan]

It suddenly occurred to me to wonder whether the Black Rock Journal is, in fact, Daniel's journal. That would be a really good explanation for why Widmore bought it!

The auction house sold the journal as the log of the captain of the Black Rock. I doubt it would sell a forgery - even if it did, somehow, travel back 200 years in time, Daniel's entries would automatically label it as modern. I think there's room in the Lostverse for more than one journal.

The reason Widmore wanted it , IMHO, was that he was looking for a way back to the Island.

[TheVioletCreep]

Thought's while watching- apropos to nothing

The theme of parent child relationship (generally screwed up) keeps repeating:

Jack and his dad
Kate and her (step?)dad
Ben and his dad
Penny and her dad
Hurley and his dad (recently reconciled)
Miles and his dad
Dan and his mom and dad

Kate has to give up "her" child
Claire loses her child
Eloise kills her child
Sawyer and his daughter

More?

Sun/Jin and Ji Yeon?

[enalzi]

Sun/Jin and Ji Yeon?

Also Sun and her Dad.
And Jin and his Mom.

No one has a good relationship with their parents on this show.

[Monstre]

That guy is such a dick. I hope he gets jacked up by Sawyer.
(Regarding Radzinsky)...

If by "jacked up", you mean "gets his ass kicked", then that's a good possibility. Hope it happens.

But if by "jacked up", you mean "gets killed", I don't think that's gonna happen. According to previous season Desmond flashbacks, Kelvin Inman told Des (in the hatch) that Radzinsky was his hatch partner for a while, then shot himself -- and pointed out the spot on the roof, saying, "That's Radzinsky".

A fitting destiny for Radzinsky, I'd say. As a decorative spot on the Swan station ceiling.

[Monstre]

So when did his big "you can change things" epiphany occur?
Daniel was hanging out in Ann Arbor, doing some equations. And suddenly he stopped fucking around with Avogadro's Number and realized that there was also an "X" on the line, which he'd never noticed before. :D

[Windwalker]

Gah, Daniel was such an idiot in this episode. Though I guess if the island didn't cure him completely of his mental illness, then I can live with it. The whole "people are the variables OMG" thing was stupid and doesn't make any sense, but I'm glad that the episode itself didn't actually show it to be true; we'd have to take Daniel's (mentally-ill) word for it.

But shot in the back by your own mother? Ouch.

[Merijeek]

But shot in the back by your own mother? Ouch.

BFFG: You think that's rough? Try losing a testicle in a knife fight with your mother!

-Joe

[Dilton Doiley,Philosopher King]

Gah, Daniel was such an idiot in this episode. Though I guess if the island didn't cure him completely of his mental illness, then I can live with it. The whole "people are the variables OMG" thing was stupid and doesn't make any sense, but I'm glad that the episode itself didn't actually show it to be true; we'd have to take Daniel's (mentally-ill) word for it.

But shot in the back by your own mother? Ouch.

After Ellie shot Daniel in the back, Daniel said "You knew this would happen, and you still sent me here." Or something like that. If he believes that his mother knew that she would shoot Daniel, then he still believes in "What happened, happened"... so Daniel would have always gone to the camp. Even though he called it his present (to Jack), it was still the Others past, so "whatever happened, happened". If he couldn't change the past in 1977, why would he think he can change the past in 2004?

Also, I would like to know more about the interactions between Sawyer & Co and the Others. Sawyer told Richard that he was with Locke, you'd think that Richard would be more than willing to help Sawyer's cause.

[enalzi]

Also, I would like to know more about the interactions between Sawyer & Co and the Others. Sawyer told Richard that he was with Locke, you'd think that Richard would be more than willing to help Sawyer's cause.

I think that Richard isn't quite sure about Locke anymore at this time. He went to visit him as a kid, but he failed his test. Then he tried to get him to come to his "science camp" (obviously the island) and he refused.

[Pigs in Space]

Thought's while watching- apropos to nothing

The theme of parent child relationship (generally screwed up) keeps repeating:

Jack and his dad
Kate and her (step?)dad
Ben and his dad
Penny and her dad
Hurley and his dad (recently reconciled)
Miles and his dad
Dan and his mom and dad

Kate has to give up "her" child
Claire loses her child
Eloise kills her child
Sawyer and his daughter

More?

You forgot Sawyer and his parents, arguably the worst of the lot, though Locke comes close. Seriously, you would have an easier time naming characters that don't have issues with their parents. I've come up with Juliet so far.