iTunes! Useless piece of SHIT! [Archive] - Straight Dope Message Board

gaffa

05-14-2009, 12:54 AM

I was doing some work on my iPod Touch, and like a good little AppleDrone, I "backed up" my content. Except, an Apple iTunes backup doesn't apparently back anything up! I've lost 2 years worth of contacts and, more importantly, 2 years worth of all the films I've seen. I saw 160 films in the theater last year, and 155 the year before, and I had all of this listed in this motherfucking roach motel of a PDA. Data gets in, it doesn't get out. No, dammit, I don't use that bloated monstrosity Outlook, I use Thunderbird. No, I don't use IE, I use Firefox. Neither of which would be a problem if any of the morons in Cupertino could write an app that would let me EXPORT SOME FUCKING DATA!

I updated the OS "Synced" the music files and thought I was going to be OK. Then I looked at the contact. OK, right click on the Ipod Touch listed on the left. OK..."Restore"..."This will restore only the contacts, calenders, text messages and settings..." that's all I wanted. But they are not there!

ARGH!

Red Barchetta

05-14-2009, 01:55 AM

I haven't experienced that problem specifically, but just wanted to jump in and state iTunes is an anti-intuitive bloated piece of shit that was forged from the soul of Hitler.

Myrrajh

05-14-2009, 02:14 AM

I'm sorry that all your data got munched. I really appreciate this thread, though, for confirming for me that I made a good decision to not buy an iPhone. My wariness of Apple products is growing.

gaffa

05-14-2009, 02:37 AM

This was a present. But I have to say, I had a first generation Palm Pilot and upgraded several times and never lost a single bit of data. I also lost all my fucking NOTES! Yet another data item that Apple keeps you from exporting! And they are doing this to push their $100 a year Me.com crap!

tsukaesugi

05-14-2009, 08:07 AM

And they are doing this to push their $100 a year Me.com crap!

I've been a Me member for the past five years. It sucks.

Long story short, I was talked into signing up when I bought my laptop (I didn't know any better at the time).

The email service is buggy as hell everytime you try and access it from anything but a Mac. Even using Safari on a PC it still has major bugs.

Yahoo, Gmail, and Hotmail do a better job, and they're free.

The only reason why I haven't quit my membership yet is because it's too much of a pain in the ass right now to redo my webpage and reconfigure my email address.

But it's definitely on my list of things to do.

enipla

05-14-2009, 08:29 AM

I haven't experienced that problem specifically, but just wanted to jump in and state iTunes is an anti-intuitive bloated piece of shit that was forged from the soul of Hitler.I couldn't agree more. It makes no sense at all.

TwistofFate

05-14-2009, 08:38 AM

the onlything more important than backing up your data is making sure your backup works. sorry to hear about your data loss, but lesson learned.

Munch

05-14-2009, 09:16 AM

I couldn't agree more. It makes no sense at all.
What doesn't make sense? I keep hearing this comment around the boards, and cannot for the life of me grok what people don't understand.

Now, there's a very good chance that what I use iTunes for (ipod and iphone) barely scratches the surface of what others want it to do. I'll admit I'm nowhere near a computer power user. But what tasks do you want iTunes to do that you can't get it to do?

Blank Slate

05-14-2009, 09:40 AM

Intuitively anticipate your deficiencies and correct for them on the fly?

enipla

05-14-2009, 10:30 AM

What doesn't make sense? I keep hearing this comment around the boards, and cannot for the life of me grok what people don't understand?I'm a programmer that works in windows all day long. Perhaps that's the problem. But NOTHING about iTunes is intuitive to me. It's true that I rarely use it (maybe twice a year) so I have to pretty much start from scratch each time. I absolutely hate it.

gaffa

05-14-2009, 11:19 AM

the onlything more important than backing up your data is making sure your backup works. sorry to hear about your data loss, but lesson learned.
The problem is that, apart from iTune's own "restore" there is no way to verify their alleged "backup". There is no way to export the content to any format, I mean ANY format. No CSV, no XML, nothing!

Alessan

05-14-2009, 11:31 AM

The problem is that, apart from iTune's own "restore" there is no way to verify their alleged "backup". There is no way to export the content to any format, I mean ANY format. No CSV, no XML, nothing!

That's because Apple products are perfect and there is no need for any other software anywhere else in the world.

At least, that seems to be the Apple philosophy.

Sauron

05-14-2009, 11:53 AM

Yeah, I bought a song off iTunes about a year ago, and although it shows up on my playlist, the Shuffle absolutely insists it doesn't exist. Skips right over it.

When I contacted Apple about this, I was told that I needed to delete all the songs off the Shuffle, re-register it with iTunes, and then re-load everything in my library. That "SHOULD" allow it to recognize the song.

Well, thanks ... but I've heard enough from others to doubt the sensibility of following this advice. I'll just live with not having that 99 cent song on my Shuffle.

GargoyleWB

05-14-2009, 01:38 PM

I'll admit I'm nowhere near a computer power user. But what tasks do you want iTunes to do that you can't get it to do?

I want it to quit nagging with prompts for actions and updates. The fact that you can even tell it to turn off automatic updates, yet it continues to nag you anyway, is doubly irritating.

I still can't figure out freakin' playlist synching and folder structures for importing music. I want my files and folders *here* dammit, *this way*, yet it continues to randomly litter my ipod and computer with duplicate files, duplicate playlists, links to moved files, etc.

In short, the software seems to deliberately try to undo any configuration settings or behavior that you have set up. It will behave nicely for a month or so, then spontaneously decide "To help you out, how about I create triples of everything on your ipod and retag your album artwork to the wrong albums, since your hard drive is running out of space due to my moving a third of your library into a folder nested 14 levels deep somewhere you'll never find. Would you like Quicktime with that?"

hroark2112

05-14-2009, 02:27 PM

BellRungBookShut-CandleSnuffed

05-14-2009, 08:32 PM

gaffa

05-14-2009, 08:58 PM

I'm gonna go ahead and plug WINAMP. I switched to the ipod editor (which works for my shuffle and 4th gen nano, so I assume it'll work for the other new stuff, too), and I've never looked back. iTunes can suck it.
Good idea, but it doesn't deal with my main problem - how do I back up my Calender, Contacts and Notes?

EpicNonsense

05-14-2009, 09:41 PM

I'm surprised no one has yet brought up the stupidassmotherfuckingpieceofshit version upgrade process... :rolleyes:

GameHat

05-14-2009, 09:41 PM

What pisses me off is that I can move songs from my PC to my Ipod easily, but if I buy a new computer, I can't move the songs from my Ipod to the computer.

I'm talking about 100% legal, paid for music. Not a download in the bunch!

Um, yes you can. Apple doesn't make it intuitive, but I've done it several times.

Basic idea:

1) Deauthorize your iTunes on old comp
2) Follow this pretty straightforward guide (http://lifehacker.com/software/ipod/how-to-copy-songs-from-your-ipod-to-your-pc-105256.php)
3) Profit.

hroark2112

05-15-2009, 01:09 AM

madmonk28

05-15-2009, 02:12 AM

itunes is the microsoft of music downloads.

Dead Badger

05-15-2009, 03:06 AM

Um, yes you can. Apple doesn't make it intuitive, but I've done it several times.

Basic idea:

1) Deauthorize your iTunes on old comp
2) Follow this pretty straightforward guide (http://lifehacker.com/software/ipod/how-to-copy-songs-from-your-ipod-to-your-pc-105256.php)
3) Profit.Well yes, but considering this is basic functionality of pretty much every other MP3-player management program (including 3rd-party iPod ones), it's a touch lame that you can't do it in iTunes. You can't even copy non-DRM'd tracks to your local computer via iTunes (or at least, you couldn't the last time I used it, swore at it, deleted it and installed ephPod instead). It's also a touch alarming that those instructions begin with the words:
If iTunes starts syncing (ie erasing) your music automatically, hit the X in the upper right hand corner of iTunes display, to the left of the search box, to stop it.Yikes.

Edit: although this sort of syncing danger seems to be endemic, as I discovered when my Win Mobile phone deleted all of my contacts after I upgraded my computer and synced it, thinking they'd be downloaded from the phone. You'd think a little popup saying "hey, I'm about to delete literally everything on this motherfucker; is that okay with you?" would be nice. Thank god for my backups.

The Librarian

07-09-2009, 08:00 AM

I want it to quit nagging with prompts for actions and updates. The fact that you can even tell it to turn off automatic updates, yet it continues to nag you anyway, is doubly irritating.

I still can't figure out freakin' playlist synching and folder structures for importing music. I want my files and folders *here* dammit, *this way*, yet it continues to randomly litter my ipod and computer with duplicate files, duplicate playlists, links to moved files, etc.

In short, the software seems to deliberately try to undo any configuration settings or behavior that you have set up. It will behave nicely for a month or so, then spontaneously decide "To help you out, how about I create triples of everything on your ipod and retag your album artwork to the wrong albums, since your hard drive is running out of space due to my moving a third of your library into a folder nested 14 levels deep somewhere you'll never find. Would you like Quicktime with that?"
(bolding mine)

This.

incidental

07-09-2009, 08:19 AM

I've had itunes for a while - at least since 2004 - and typically it works fine. But sometimes it mystifies me. Yesterday evening, it apparently decided that my library doesn't exist. So, it imported an old "library" from 2004, which had all of one song on it. Please note that I did nothing to prompt itunes into doing this - no upgrades, no new software, no new settings, nothing.

A little bit of fiddling got everything back, with one minor twist. As it's re-importing all my songs, a happy little window pops up and informs me that "some files could not be found." Now, I have over 14 gigs of music, well over 3000 songs. I have no clue which files are lost - my music library isn't particularly well organized. Most of that music came from copying my old cd collection over, but a significant part has come from emusic, amazon downloads and itunes downloads and are saved in random folders all over the place. Going through this and trying to figure out which of >3000 files didn't make it is absurd. I'm just going to assume that if I don't notice the files are missing, I don't really need them. But still...WTF itunes?

The Vorlon

07-09-2009, 10:44 AM

I WILL NOT install iTunes on any computer on the home network, and have informed the other two users they do at their own peril---no support for you.

I suspect that the HP home media server will be almost as much fun.......

Smeghead

07-09-2009, 10:51 AM

buttonjockey308

07-09-2009, 12:52 PM

I'm happily nestled in my cozy smug little nook of Apply happiness, but I have to agree that itunes is the worst of all possibly solutions to the problem of audio file management. It's like Dorian Grey - all the evil and annoyance and frustration that has been eliminated from everything else Apple makes has been dumped into this program just to keep the universe in balance.

I figure this is the case. My 2nd gen iPod with the aforementioned hellware caused me all sorts of problems, up to and including that all the music on the thing no longer needed to be there and that the upgrade of the firmware which I never asked for or wanted had to go onto my iPod come hell or high water.

I tossed the little white box in the fire and bought a Zune, never looked back. The interface is intuitive and simple, I can add and sync and do everything I need to do wirelessly. Now as far as contacts and so forth? I use the blackberry. Also just dandy. Conceptually, I love apple, I really do, but the more interaction I have with them, the more I get the 'all hat, no cattle' feeling.

corkboard

07-09-2009, 01:14 PM

Shot From Guns

07-09-2009, 01:22 PM

Shot From Guns

07-09-2009, 01:29 PM

OH, I just remembered another:

There's no way to automatically delete from your library songs that have been moved or had their filename changed--you can't even sort by that little "!" icon. You have to manually filter out every. single. fucking. one. (IIRC, Winamp had a great "crop dead files" option.)

Munch

07-09-2009, 01:59 PM

If I want to play only music by a specific artist or album, I have to create a whole playlist for it, which is then synced to my iPod, where it's rendered redundant by the way the iPod navigation works.
Why are you syncing your iPod? This is the #1 source of iTunes hatred.

Shot From Guns

07-09-2009, 02:04 PM

Why are you syncing your iPod? This is the #1 source of iTunes hatred.

Because the entire point of my iPod (160 GB capacity) is to hold ALL of my music. I've still got stacks of albums to rip and old MP3s to move over from other storage media, but everything that's on my computer is on my iPod.

Munch

07-09-2009, 02:21 PM

Because the entire point of my iPod (160 GB capacity) is to hold ALL of my music. I've still got stacks of albums to rip and old MP3s to move over from other storage media, but everything that's on my computer is on my iPod.

What's your point? The fact is, syncing your ipod with itunes is a source of massive trouble and confusion, as you've demonstrated. It's a matter of hitting Cntl-A and dragging to get ALL of your music over to your ipod, and not have to mess with any of the playlists you may have set up.

Smeghead

07-09-2009, 02:55 PM

Agreed. The first thing I did was enable manual management of files on my iPod, and that's the only thing that's kept it bearable. Well, that and the fact that I hardly ever listen to actual music.

woodstockbirdybird

07-09-2009, 02:59 PM

Are those of you having problems with iTunes using Windows or OSX? I only ask b/c I've been using iTunes on my Macs for about 10 years and haven't had any problems. I'm no power user but have about 6,000 songs. Is this more of an issue with iTunes for Windows?

I've got about 85,000 songs on my iTunes and I use a PC, and I don't have any problems with it. My main complaint is that all iTunes downloads are in m4a form (or were - I've refused to buy anything from their store for years), so if you have an mp3 player that's not an ipod (which all sane people should), you have to burn the fucking album (or song) to a CD and then import it as an mp3 to listen to it anywhere but your computer. Has iTunes finally gone along with the rest of the civilized world in making mp3s the default format for music files, or are they still being dicks and using m4as?

Shot From Guns

07-09-2009, 03:11 PM

What's your point? The fact is, syncing your ipod with itunes is a source of massive trouble and confusion, as you've demonstrated. It's a matter of hitting Cntl-A and dragging to get ALL of your music over to your ipod, and not have to mess with any of the playlists you may have set up.

Why? Syncing doesn't cause me any problems, and I want all of my other playlists to transfer over. Why should I have to manually add the new music every time I rip a new album?

Also, am I the only person who things that it should be spelled synch, not sync?

RitterSport

07-09-2009, 03:13 PM

I downloaded my first/last song from iTunes just a few weeks ago. It's still in m4a, but it's unprotected, so you can retranslate it to an mp3, lossy conversion from a lossy format. I generally buy cd's instead of single tracks anyway, but if my kids want a specific song, I'd rather get it from Amazon -- it's mp3 already and usually higher bitrate.

ETA: that was in response to woodstockbirdybird, of course.

Munch

07-09-2009, 03:26 PM

Why? Syncing doesn't cause me any problems, and I want all of my other playlists to transfer over.

Of course it causes you problems - why else would you be complaining about it?
Why should I have to manually add the new music every time I rip a new album?
Uh - you're doing that anyway when you sync the music, and it takes longer in the process!

Anamorphic

07-09-2009, 03:34 PM

I use iTunes on a Mac, and have not had any significant problems with it. Little annoyances here and there, but nothing major.

The one thing that really irritates me, though: I listen to a number of podcasts. The podcasts are downloaded in itunes, transferred to my ipod, and I listen to them on the ipod. Every once in a while, iTunes will stop automatically downloading the individual podcasts, leaving a little ! next to the podcast. If I click on the !, it tells me it stopped downloading it because "you haven't listened to any episodes recently." Well, no, actually I listen to them regularly, just not within itunes. Please don't make those decisions for me.

Shot From Guns

07-09-2009, 03:45 PM

Of course it causes you problems - why else would you be complaining about it?

The only thing I'm complaining about is that the navigation difference between iTunes and the iPod causes me to upload redundant playlists. That's not a synching problem--that's a navigation design problem.

Uh - you're doing that anyway when you sync the music, and it takes longer in the process!

It syncs automatically--I plug the iPod in, and iTunes figures out what's new and needs to be added. I don't need to remember to upload new stuff, check to see whether or not I've uploaded it yet, re-upload things for which I've added album art, etc.

pricciar

07-09-2009, 03:55 PM

There is no way to sort music by filename and/or directory tree.

If I want to play only music by a specific artist or album, I have to create a whole playlist for it, which is then synced to my iPod, where it's rendered redundant by the way the iPod navigation works.

I don't use iTunes to manage my music. I would rather just do it myself using the files themselves. I feel like it gives me more control. But, I do use it to copy stuff over to my iPhone and once in a while to listen to something.

Anyway. Why do you have to create a playlist? I must be missing something.
If I want to listen to just one artist I would go to the search box and type that name in so that is the only band that shows up in itunes
If I want to listen to just one album. I go to the seacrch box and type the name in.
I am betting there are other ways to do it. But, thats the one way that jumps out at me that doesnt involve making a playlist.

Shot From Guns

07-09-2009, 04:28 PM

If I want to listen to just one artist I would go to the search box and type that name in so that is the only band that shows up in itunes
If I want to listen to just one album. I go to the seacrch box and type the name in.

Huh. Is that loopable?

Of course, then we also get back to my annoyance at albums sorting under a particular artist alphabetically instead of by year.

QuercusMax

07-09-2009, 04:40 PM

E-Sabbath

07-09-2009, 04:51 PM

And this is why I use WinAmp to manage my iPod.

Manduck

07-09-2009, 04:59 PM

Anyway. Why do you have to create a playlist? I must be missing something.
If I want to listen to just one artist I would go to the search box and type that name in so that is the only band that shows up in itunes
If I want to listen to just one album. I go to the seacrch box and type the name in.

Playlists are a lot more flexible than that. The one I use most selects by genre and by star rating greater than three.

Chessic Sense

07-09-2009, 05:42 PM

Don't ever put an exclamation point after iTunes. It makes it look like you're yelling "Tunes" in spanish.

Frank

07-09-2009, 06:02 PM

Don't ever put an exclamation point after iTunes. It makes it look like you're yelling "Tunes" in spanish.
Doesn't that require an upside down exclamation point in front?

[eta] DUH! Never mind, I just got it. Stupid, I am, some days.

Ferret Herder

07-09-2009, 09:42 PM

Awesome. I just lost an entire new album somehow - I downloaded it yesterday via eMusic, which always works just fine to transfer music over to iTunes. Except this time. The songs are now only on my iPod and no longer exist on my freaking hard drive. :smack:

dropzone

07-09-2009, 09:58 PM

This is why I play plain ol' MP3s on my generic MP3 player. You iWhatever users are suckers.

Regallag_The_Axe

07-09-2009, 10:27 PM

The one thing that really irritates me, though: I listen to a number of podcasts. The podcasts are downloaded in itunes, transferred to my ipod, and I listen to them on the ipod. Every once in a while, iTunes will stop automatically downloading the individual podcasts, leaving a little ! next to the podcast. If I click on the !, it tells me it stopped downloading it because "you haven't listened to any episodes recently." Well, no, actually I listen to them regularly, just not within itunes. Please don't make those decisions for me.

I don't use iTunes, but this is the sort of thing that irritates me in any software. I will make my own decisions, as today's machines/software are too stupid to make decisions for me. Don't organize my files, don't download things without me telling you to, don't stop something unless I tell you to. Someday machines might be smart enough to do things like for me, but that day has not yet arrived.

fluiddruid

07-09-2009, 10:32 PM

E-Sabbath

07-09-2009, 11:04 PM

This is why I play plain ol' MP3s on my generic MP3 player. You iWhatever users are suckers.

I got a 30 gig iPod for my car a year ago for $99. Couldn't match the price and features with anything else. For portable music, I use a Sansa.

I note that WinAmp lets you extract music from iPods.
I also note that DVDJon has a lovely program called doubletwist that converts m4as to mp3s for you.

Shot From Guns

07-10-2009, 09:07 AM

Playlists are a lot more flexible than that. The one I use most selects by genre and by star rating greater than three.

We know--if you'd bothered to actually read the chain you were replying to, you'd see that we were discussing the specific problem of having to create a playlist to listen to a particular artist or album in iTunes, which would then be redundant on the iPod.

Thus, the question wasn't "Why would you ever make a playlist?" but "Why would you make a playlist in that particular instance?"

This is why I play plain ol' MP3s on my generic MP3 player. You iWhatever users are suckers.

I play plain ol' MP3s on my iPod--there's nothing that says you have to rip your CDs as M4A. Show me another music player that offers 160+ GB of storage space with a well-designed, easily navigable interface and a history of not being shitty and I'll consider purchasing it.

Munch

07-10-2009, 09:15 AM

Huh. Is that loopable?

Of course, then we also get back to my annoyance at albums sorting under a particular artist alphabetically instead of by year.

Did you try clicking the sort by year tab?

Seriously - I know it's totally cool to hate iTunes, but if you're not going to switch to another program, could you even try to make the smallest effort at trying to figure it out? Here's a few well intentioned tips:

1. See the little arrow next to "Name"? Click it. It should bring up a set of frames at the top of the screen. You can use those to filter by genre/band/album, solving your "play just one artist/band" issue.

2. Click "View" -> "View Options". Select "Release Date" or "Year". Now you can sort your albums by year.

The features you want are probably in there. You just need to spend time to figure them out (just like any piece of software).

tacoloco

07-10-2009, 09:17 AM

In my work, I deal with a lot of Apple fanboys/girls. They are annoying as hell.

They love iTunes. It's not bloated, it's feature-rich! It only begs and pleads with you to install Safari on your computer for your own good!

One of them was bitching at me today (because they didn't understand a simple process that any idiot could) that we should be more like Apple, because "Apple never releases software before it's ready."

Trust me, Apple and Mac haters are twice as annoying. Mac users can't say anything good about their chosen platform without some Windows or Linux fanboy talking smack to them.

I've had zero problems with iTunes and I've been using it since the 5gb iPods were current issue. I've used it on a PC and now I use it on a Mac.

iTunes is fine. It's not perfect nor is it a one size fits all application. It serves the needs of people who want something simple and fairly uncomplicated. If someone needs more flexibility, there are other choices.

I play plain ol' MP3s on my iPod--there's nothing that says you have to rip your CDs as M4A. Show me another music player that offers 160+ GB of storage space with a well-designed, easily navigable interface and a history of not being shitty and I'll consider purchasing it.

Careful there or you may be branded an Apple fanboy.

Shot From Guns

07-10-2009, 09:41 AM

Did you try clicking the sort by year tab?

Sorry, I didn't make this clear--I meant that you can't sort by year on the iPod. I'm aware that you can jump through fifty billion hoops to get iTunes to do it.

ETA:

Careful there or you may be branded an Apple fanboy.

Then I'll counter with my XX chromosomes and the fact that I've never owned a single Mac in my life and never plan to.

Munch

07-10-2009, 10:02 AM

Sorry, I didn't make this clear--I meant that you can't sort by year on the iPod. I'm aware that you can jump through fifty billion hoops to get iTunes to do it.

Fair enough. Do other mp3 players allow that?

But if five clicks is the same as "fifty billion hoops", I'm not sure there's a program out there for you. Does your cellphone have the word "jitterbug" on it?

Shot From Guns

07-10-2009, 10:11 AM

Fair enough. Do other mp3 players allow that?

Dunno if they do--but the point is that I should be able to choose how things sort on my iPod.

But if five clicks is the same as "fifty billion hoops", I'm not sure there's a program out there for you. Does your cellphone have the word "jitterbug" on it?

Hah hah hah, how clever--you're insinuating that I'm an elderly person who is confused by technology, rather than a woman in her mid-20s who had a minor in Computer Science with her B.A. who has programmed in at least seven languages.

Because you're apparently unaware of any program outside of iTunes, I'm contrasting this method with how I had my files organized when I used Winamp--I formatted all album directories as "[Year] Album Title," so that when I used the "Sort by path and filename" function, they'd sort perfectly by artist, then by album (by year), then by track number.

initech

07-10-2009, 10:18 AM

I'll venture a guess that the majority of people having problems with iTunes are doing one or both of these:

- using it on a PC
- trying to keep iTunes from organizing their music for them

I used iTunes/iPod on a PC for many years. It blows. Random PC and OS problems coupled with Apple writing software for an OS that's clearly out of their wheelhouse leads to a pretty crappy experience. Since I moved to Mac, virtually no problems.

I don't get the "I want to organize my own music" thing, but to each his own. iTunes theoretically supports this, but it seems to be an uphill battle. Just give in and let iTunes do the organizing. It does a fine job, and it frees you up to go be anal retentive about something else. :)

If both of these are dealbreakers, buy a Sansa clip and use Winamp or something. It's commodity technology these days. You generally buy iPod because of its integration with iTunes. If that's what you hate, buy something else. It'll be cheaper, and you'll be happier.

Munch

07-10-2009, 10:38 AM

Dunno if they do--but the point is that I should be able to choose how things sort on my iPod.That's great. But sounds like a general mp3 complaint rather than an iPod complaint, since you're unaware of that functionality anywhere else. I'd like my iPhone to grant me x-Ray vision.

Hah hah hah, how clever--you're insinuating that I'm an elderly person who is confused by technology, rather than a woman in her mid-20s who had a minor in Computer Science with her B.A. who has programmed in at least seven languages.

Because you're apparently unaware of any program outside of iTunes, I'm contrasting this method with how I had my files organized when I used Winamp--I formatted all album directories as "[Year] Album Title," so that when I used the "Sort by path and filename" function, they'd sort perfectly by artist, then by album (by year), then by track number.Yes - that seems MUCH easier than simply sorting by year with one click. Damn you, iTunes for not forcing me to reformat all of my files with new album directories! *shakes fist at the heavens*

Shot From Guns

07-10-2009, 10:46 AM

That's great. But sounds like a general mp3 complaint rather than an iPod complaint, since you're unaware of that functionality anywhere else.

Ah, but if iTunes can do it, why can't the iPod? Apple integrates their software with their hardware, giving me no other option unless I want to hack my own device. If they're going to paint me into a corner, they might as well make it a useful corner.

Yes - that seems MUCH easier than simply sorting by year with one click.

No, it's not just "one click"--sorting by year sorts EVERYTHING by year. You have to put in another filter for the artist. IIRC, there's no way for me to look at my whole library with everything sorted by Artist (alpha) -> Album (year) -> Track (number). (Not 100% sure on this, because I'm posting from work, where I don't have iTunes available to screw around with to make it do what I'm effing telling it to do.)

Also, IIRC you can't move the "Name" column from its position as the first one. (At least you didn't used to be able to.) Screw you, iTunes, I want the column furthese to the left to be Artist! ARTIST, DAMN YOU!

Ferret Herder

07-10-2009, 10:49 AM

I'll venture a guess that the majority of people having problems with iTunes are doing one or both of these:

- using it on a PC
- trying to keep iTunes from organizing their music for them
PC, yup. And I don't like this part - if they're offering it for PC they'd damned well better have it work well.

I let it organize my music - except that I have the music folder on an additional (external) hard drive instead of on the C drive. It seems like once a year or so it forgets, and creates me a new folder on the C drive, then starts trying to find music and sync my iPod.

(I do see that the album no longer on my hard drive is still on the iPod so I'll have to use the above-mentioned utility to recover it; thanks for the heads-up on that.)

I've tried to use alternate programs to deal with my podcasts and unfortunately I've never found them to work properly. I ended up with a bunch of podcasts mislabeled as songs and scattered amongst my music.

Munch

07-10-2009, 10:55 AM

No, it's not just "one click"--sorting by year sorts EVERYTHING by year. You have to put in another filter for the artist. IIRC, there's no way for me to look at my whole library with everything sorted by Artist (alpha) -> Album (year) -> Track (number). (Not 100% sure on this, because I'm posting from work, where I don't have iTunes available to screw around with to make it do what I'm effing telling it to do.)

Nope. I showed you how to solve that above. I will absolutely grant you that the "frames" (for lack of a better term) are hard to find, but will do exactly what you're asking.

Ah ha! Clicking multiple times on "Album" brings up a series of different ways to sort. By year and by artist. Interesting.

initech

07-10-2009, 12:59 PM

PC, yup. And I don't like this part - if they're offering it for PC they'd damned well better have it work well.

If that was the rule, there'd be very little software for Windows. PCs tend to get confused a lot. My PC had a habit of losing config files every few months, or forgetting who I was. Once, it totally forgot what USB was or what it was used for. Had to reinstall the OS to get it back. I don't miss my PC.

Ferret Herder

07-10-2009, 01:03 PM

If that was the rule, there'd be very little software for Windows. PCs tend to get confused a lot. My PC had a habit of losing config files every few months, or forgetting who I was. Once, it totally forgot what USB was or what it was used for. Had to reinstall the OS to get it back. I don't miss my PC.
See, other than a battle with my last laptop over Vista and the BSOD, my computer's been pretty good to me. iTunes is my only headache of any note these days.

Shot From Guns

07-10-2009, 01:50 PM

If that was the rule, there'd be very little software for Windows. PCs tend to get confused a lot.

This is because Macs have dedicated hardware--they can design the OS to work specifically with the parts they know the computer will contain. Windows, on the other hand, has to work with pretty much any old thing you pull off a shelf and throw in there. You trade off stability for flexibility.

Leiko

07-10-2009, 02:10 PM

Smeghead

07-10-2009, 03:44 PM

I'll venture a guess that the majority of people having problems with iTunes are doing one or both of these:

- using it on a PC
- trying to keep iTunes from organizing their music for them

I'm in the latter camp, and while I can defend my presence there quite easily, I won't bother, but instead point out that a program that lets you do things the way you want them done is inherently superior to one that only lets you do things the way the designer felt they should be done. In my experience, most of my Mac's software is flexible and intuitive and lets you do things however you want. iTunes, for some bizarre reason, is stuck firmly in the other category and refuses to budge.

LunarPlexus

07-10-2009, 04:27 PM

Dunno if they do--but the point is that I should be able to choose how things sort on my iPod.

Hah hah hah, how clever--you're insinuating that I'm an elderly person who is confused by technology, rather than a woman in her mid-20s who had a minor in Computer Science with her B.A. who has programmed in at least seven languages.

Because you're apparently unaware of any program outside of iTunes, I'm contrasting this method with how I had my files organized when I used Winamp--I formatted all album directories as "[Year] Album Title," so that when I used the "Sort by path and filename" function, they'd sort perfectly by artist, then by album (by year), then by track number.

I hope to god you don't save files by hitting control-s (or command-s), because that's just succumbing to a programmer's whim. You really should be syncing your saves to the location of the read/write head with respect to the disk (or, better yet, magnetic drum).

Shot From Guns

07-10-2009, 04:35 PM

I hope to god you don't save files by hitting control-s (or command-s), because that's just succumbing to a programmer's whim.

Yes, because the particular keyboard shortcut chosen for a command in one application is entirely analagous to something that affects the basic functionality of another. :rolleyes:

LunarPlexus

07-10-2009, 04:51 PM

Yes, because the particular keyboard shortcut chosen for a command in one application is entirely analagous to something that affects the basic functionality of another. :rolleyes:

Sorry. Thought an old programmer like yourself would understand the reference.

Ctrl-S => Using a database and metadata => 21st century

Timing to a rotating drum => Laboriously naming directories to support one sorting scheme => UNIVAC.

The Tao's Revenge

07-10-2009, 06:29 PM

Then I'll counter with my XX chromosomes and the fact that I've never owned a single Mac in my life and never plan to.

Hottest thing anyone has ever said, ever.

The Tao's Revenge

07-10-2009, 06:37 PM

I don't get the "I want to organize my own music" thing, but to each his own. iTunes theoretically supports this, but it seems to be an uphill battle. Just give in and let iTunes do the organizing.

Remember the old Apple Commercial where the chick in red shorts throws the hammer through Big Brother Orwellian style screen where it's spouting thought conrol propaganda?

Guess they gave up on that "think different" thing. Do what the apple product wants or it'll harass you into compliance. Think different about how to organize your music? Not ob Apple's bloody watch, they are the borg.

berff

07-10-2009, 11:53 PM

I'd never owned any Apple products before until I decided to purchase an iPod Touch a couple of years ago. Since I work 12 hours per day in an office...I listen to my iPod about 12 hours per day so I've definitely gotten a lot of mileage out of it. Although I haven't' had many major problems with the iPod or iTunes, I swear that the shuffle feature is not very random at all. It seems to have its own favorites as there are a couple of songs that get chosen every day while other songs very rarely get played. I don't if anyone else has experienced this or if its a problem with just my particular iPod/iTunes.

Oh, and also, my iPod like to reset itself randomly for no reason at least a couple of times a week when I'm listening to a song. But other than that, I love it.

I also love iTunes although I've never tried using any other program to manage my music. I used to organize my music with just the actual files and folders but my computer liked to randomly rename my songs after a few weeks or months. "Mmmbop" by Hanson would suddenly become "track 1" by Unknown Artist, and so on.

The Tao's Revenge

07-11-2009, 10:29 AM

I'd never owned any Apple products before until I decided to purchase an iPod Touch a couple of years ago. Since I work 12 hours per day in an office...I listen to my iPod about 12 hours per day so I've definitely gotten a lot of mileage out of it. Although I haven't' had many major problems with the iPod or iTunes, I swear that the shuffle feature is not very random at all. It seems to have its own favorites as there are a couple of songs that get chosen every day while other songs very rarely get played. I don't if anyone else has experienced this or if its a problem with just my particular iPod/iTunes.

I've noticed this with my G1. It really really really likes Shakira. I have several Shakira tunes that pop up a lot. Doesn't matter if it has the works of Muse, Arcade Fire, DJ Alligator project, Weird Al et al to choose from. It wants to rock to some Shakira.

The nearest I can figure is maybe about the Shakira ID3 tags that affect shuffling.

Munch

07-11-2009, 11:56 AM

I swear that the shuffle feature is not very random at all. It seems to have its own favorites as there are a couple of songs that get chosen every day while other songs very rarely get played. I don't if anyone else has experienced this or if its a problem with just my particular iPod/iTunes.

There used to be a setting where you could adjust how "random" songs were (less random would play more clusters from the same artist). I think that's been removed, as I can't find it.

SenorBeef

07-11-2009, 02:15 PM

Trust me, Apple and Mac haters are twice as annoying.

No, they're really not. See, we only come out when douchebags from the Church of Apple attempt to preach to us. It's not as if we walk around saying APPLE SUCKS! randomly.

Church of Apple accolytes are much more likely to bring up how great apple is or how evil Microsoft is for any reason. There was a cool guy I used to know years ago who decided to become an Apple fanatic and COULD NOT SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT IT EVER UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE. Any and every conversation, from the weather to how explosive a particular item on the taco bell menu made an anus, was steered towards either why Microsoft was evil or how Apple was the single bastion of light in an evil world.

It sounds like you yourself are an Apple fanatic, and people's attempt to get you to STFU have you thinking "fucking non-Apple users are so abusive!"

Edit: Incidentally, I own an ipod touch and it's the coolest gadget I've ever owned. iTunes is the worst piece of shit I've ever had to deal with. I actually bought the ipod touch used in part because I didn't want to give money to apple - I hope their headquarters explodes in a nuclear inferno so that all their fanatics will commit ritualistic suicide.

People making reference to winamp or other programs being able to transfer data back and forth - does that apply to the touch? Back when I looked, it didn't - no program could sync with the touch. Has that changed?

E-Sabbath

07-11-2009, 02:32 PM

http://mlipod.sourceforge.net/wiki/IPhone

Almost. Not quite perfect, but almost completely functional. The problem is the Touch didn't support disk mode.

It'll do the basics, though.

* Automatically recognizing iPhone after attaching it
* Reading iPhone database
* Transfer songs or playlists to iPhone
* Creating/rearranging playlists on iPhone
* Album art, cover flow
* Gapless playback
* Podcasts, Audiobooks
* Sync ratings and playcounts to iPhone
* Transfer songs from iPhone to PC (aka reverse sync)
* Deletion of tracks from iPhone
* Database cleanup tools, finding and removing orphan tracks etc.
* Free space calculations. This means, if your iPod is getting too full, you will correct error messages now.
* Updating progress meter during transfer of a huge file
* Photo upload (since v3.07)
* Showing the "Sync in progress" screen on the iPhone (since v3.07p03)
* Telling the iPhone to re-read the updated database (since v3.07p03). Also see below (After Sync)
* iPhone 3G and iPod touch with FW 2.x. (since v3.08)

The Tao's Revenge

07-11-2009, 06:42 PM

Holy crap you can't just mount the itouch as a mass storage device? Holy crap cubed (†crap³) the device can't just make and maintain it's own database?

Putting tunes on my G1:
1 Plug in USB and Mount G1 as usb mass storage device.
2 Copy tunes to anywhere on the G1's SD card.
3 Go masturbate to internet porn because I'm done.

That's it. My Android phone Just Works(tm)*. I could sync my phone using a console or command prompt if I had a mind to. You should write Apple and complain about the horrible job they did with that and ask them to fix it for next upgrade.

*trademark belongs to apple, used for satire, and cause I'm a jerk who likes give the apple fanboys a taste of their own medicine.

E-Sabbath

07-11-2009, 09:27 PM

If you could do that, Tao, then just _anyone_ could add music or software to the iphone. It must go through Apple's stores and software.

Apple: The Mandatory Thing!

MonkeyMensch

07-12-2009, 07:37 PM

I'm educated, or at least my ignorance has been battled. I am a dual platform user, which is to say I have a PC and a MAC on my real-life desk top. I run iTunes on my PC, for historical reasons, and have always hated it. It's nice to see that I have not been totally irrational.

The question I'd pose, since I work in electronics retail, is what would anyone recommend in lieu of iTunes for an iPod, since that's all we sell? Ideas?

wintertime

07-13-2009, 04:39 AM

I haven't used iTunes in quite a while and wanted to delete my account .. but that seems to be impossible.

Sure, I can delete my credit card information, so that no one can misuse my account but I want it gone completely.

So, how do I do that? :confused:

Shot From Guns

07-13-2009, 09:26 AM

Sorry. Thought an old programmer like yourself would understand the reference.

Unfortunately for you, my major was in English Lit, so I also have a very low tolerance for analogies that blow harder than your mother when the rent is due.

"Mmmbop" by Hanson would suddenly become "track 1" by Unknown Artist, and so on.

Perhaps your computer was doing the file-organization equivalent of sweeping dust under the rug--if you can't see the horrible music, you're less likely to listen to it.

The Tao's Revenge

07-13-2009, 09:38 AM

If you could do that, Tao, then just _anyone_ could add music or software to the iphone. It must go through Apple's stores and software.

Apple: The Mandatory Thing!

I almost got an unlocked, jailbroken, iphone instead of a G1, but even then it appears it would have been quite locked down.

Dodged a bullet there!

The Tao's Revenge

07-13-2009, 09:48 AM

I used to organize my music with just the actual files and folders but my computer liked to randomly rename my songs after a few weeks or months. "Mmmbop" by Hanson would suddenly become "track 1" by Unknown Artist, and so on.

Just noticed this.

I have moved music, in organized folders, through 4 to 5 computers, and now a phone, and countless different operating system installs and I have never lost ID3 track information. I have 5 year old mp3s witch still have valid ID3s.

Might I ask what software you use, and suggest different, more competent software?

Munch

07-13-2009, 09:52 AM

Might I ask what software you use, and suggest different, more competent software?

Did you notice the first sentence of the paragraph you quoted (which you deleted)?

Shot From Guns

07-13-2009, 10:20 AM

Did you notice the first sentence of the paragraph you quoted (which you deleted)?

Yes, Tao's Revenge, it was probably a case of not having any ID3 tags at all.

Smeghead

07-13-2009, 11:18 AM

Munch

07-13-2009, 11:28 AM

I was poking around on my iPod last night and discovered that iTunes has created two new playlists for me that I didn't request. One is empty, and the other contains a dozen songs by some guy I've never heard of. Thanks, iTunes!

Stop syncing your ipod. Because I gurandamntee you that someone created those playlists in itunes at some point, and that's how they got on there.

Smeghead

07-13-2009, 01:54 PM

I've never once synced my iPod as long as I've owned it. All my file management has been manual.

Munch

07-13-2009, 02:13 PM

Huh. Any chance they were created via a "quick playlist"? I've never got the hang of those, and have had them appear from time to time - each time I did remember trying to put together a quicklist.

LunarPlexus

07-13-2009, 02:43 PM

Unfortunately for you, my major was in English Lit, so I also have a very low tolerance for analogies that blow harder than your mother when the rent is due.

I'm a little new here. Can someone clue me in if I did something really egregious, or this person just has some issue? Thanks.

Beware of Doug

07-13-2009, 03:25 PM

Shot From Guns

07-13-2009, 03:56 PM

Can someone clue me in if I did something really egregious, or this person just has some issue?

If you look up at the top of the page, you'll see that this thread is in the Pit. That means that instead of being polite, it's okay for me to call your mom a whore after you call me a moron.

LunarPlexus

07-13-2009, 03:58 PM

If you look up at the top of the page, you'll see that this thread is in the Pit. That means that instead of being polite, it's okay for me to call your mom a whore after you call me a moron.

OK. Fuck you then.

twilly80

07-13-2009, 04:07 PM

OK. Fuck you then.

Get used to it. He is quite the salty one.

LunarPlexus

07-13-2009, 04:13 PM

…you're insinuating that I'm an elderly person who is confused by technology, rather than a woman in her mid-20s who had a minor in Computer Science with her B.A. who has programmed in at least seven languages.

Get used to it. He is quite the salty one.

I'm experiencing some gender confusion. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Shot From Guns

07-13-2009, 04:27 PM

OK. Fuck you then.

While I'm not bothered by it personally (I laughed), I should give you a fair heads-up that it's against the Pit rules (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=508858) (for some bizarre reason) to say fuck you, fuck off, get fucked, or any variation thereon.

Get used to it. He is quite the salty one.

Don't mind twilly--I refused to give into her (his?) begging for gold in the WoW thread, and apparently s/he's taken it quite personally.

ETA:

I'm experiencing some gender confusion. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

For the low, low price of $49.95, I could send you some photos that would clear that confusion right up.

The Tao's Revenge

07-13-2009, 05:04 PM

Did you notice the first sentence of the paragraph you quoted (which you deleted)?

I checked just to be sure, but you didn't mention any software. It doesn't really matter whether you use ID3 tags to store song information or some directory structure. (although ID3 tags are part of the file so work a lot better, and are a lot more rugged and permanent then a file directory)

Thing of it is neither Windows Explorer, Nautilus, Dolphin, nor Finder (ew) randomly rename files and move them around. And they certainly don't blank out perfectly good id3 tags. I have neither seen Winamp, Jetaudio, Windows Media player nor Amarok do that either. Although they do support editing ID3 information.

This says to me you're either moving/renaming them yourself and/or blanking the id3 tags yourself, or some third party app you use is. Since you'd remember doing it yourself, I hope, that leaves a 3rd party app you use as the offender.

LunarPlexus

07-13-2009, 05:14 PM

While I'm not bothered by it personally (I laughed), I should give you a fair heads-up that it's against the Pit rules (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=508858) (for some bizarre reason) to say fuck you, fuck off, get fucked, or any variation thereon.

Even if I'm a long-haired hippie who fucks in the mud? Where's my protest sign kit. Thanks for the heads up.

The Tao's Revenge

07-13-2009, 09:02 PM

For the low, low price of $49.95, I could send you some photos that would clear that confusion right up.

I personally find this offer intriguing, a gamble if you will, but either way I can get similar from the traps and chicks of /b/ for free.

Annie

07-13-2009, 10:06 PM

Man, you're all really harshing me off getting an iTouch when it comes out with a camera version. Sure, my Archos has 30gb and doesn't get all techy about the dubious origins of most of my videos but does it have a glass shattering app? (http://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewSoftware?id=317452855&mt=8) I think not-that's worth a couple hun, right?

My Archos has its own playlist issues, but it doesn't give me any lip about it.

Windwalker

07-14-2009, 12:23 AM

Ferret Herder

07-14-2009, 05:30 AM

Just voicing my agreement that for PC users, WinAmp's iPod managing plug-in kick's iTune's ass. I deleted that crappy piece of Apple bloatware the instant I verified that the plug-in worked as it should. iPod = great machine with horrible default software.
What's the name of the plug-in? I searched on "iPod" on WinAmp's site and just got two visualization plug-ins.

E-Sabbath

07-14-2009, 08:36 AM

http://mlipod.sourceforge.net/
ml_ipod. Remember, WinAmp _really_ whips the llama's ass.

Instructions are here.
http://mlipod.sourceforge.net/wiki/Main_Page

Dinsdale

07-14-2009, 08:36 AM

I find this thread curious. I don't have any personal experiences to share, as I own neither a Mac nor an ipod/mp3 player. But my wife and 3 kids (18-21) all have gone mac, each own at least 1 ipod, and manage their tunes through itunes. (Hell, I think the last 2 of them to buy macs got free ipod touches that they don't use.) The youngest just got her mac over the weekend, and had previously been a HEAVY itunes user with a pc. I'm inheriting her old pc.

At dinner I told my wife and 2 youngest about this thread and asked if they had any problems. None of them did. I commented that some folk object to itunes dictating the organization of some material. They said they noticed that occasionally, but it was no big deal. And I commented about not being able to download from the ipod. And their response was pretty much, "Duh - that's the nature of the beast."

Just wanted to toss that out. I am a pretty low-level technology user. I use a pc at home because that is what I use at work. And I will probably get an ipod when I buy a new/old car in a year or so, and put in a stereo that will play mp3s.

Oh yeah - one final datapoint. We went to the Apple store at the mall on Sat. I waited outside on a bench while they did some business. The mall was relatively deserted, and it was very clear that the sole store that was seeing a steady stream of folk through its doors was the Apple store.

Windwalker

07-14-2009, 09:57 AM

http://mlipod.sourceforge.net/
ml_ipod. Remember, WinAmp _really_ whips the llama's ass.

Instructions are here.
http://mlipod.sourceforge.net/wiki/Main_Page

Yep, that's the one. Simple interface without a huge heap of features, but it's slim, efficient, and works great.

Shot From Guns

07-14-2009, 10:18 AM

Clicking multiple times on "Album" brings up a series of different ways to sort. By year and by artist.

Thanks very much for this one, by the way--it must be something they added after I started using iTunes. I did a small dance of joy when I tried it and it worked. Please tell me you have easy solutions to the other complaints in the thread, too!

Thanks for the heads up.

No problem. And feel free to send me a PM telling me to fuck off anytime. :D

At dinner I told my wife and 2 youngest about this thread and asked if they had any problems.

I think the problem is that your wife and kids just don't have any experience outside of iTunes, so they have nothing to compare it to. I thought New Kids on the Block were awesome when I was seven, and I couldn't figure out why Mom would just roll her eyes.

Dinsdale

07-14-2009, 10:23 AM

I think the problem is that your wife and kids just don't have any experience outside of iTunes, so they have nothing to compare it to. I thought New Kids on the Block were awesome when I was seven, and I couldn't figure out why Mom would just roll her eyes.

Sure. Very likely. Tho I am undoubtedly the most luddite of our clan, I fear none of us is exactly living on tech's cutting edge. But I don't believe any of them feel that they have any significant needs that are not being met by their current technology. Certainly not with respect to personal music, and especially none that would warrant the time, effort, and expense of acquiring and learning an alternative system in order to compare. For the somewhat casual user of technology, simplicity, compatability and reliability are HUGE, and I get the impression Apple products provide that.

Munch

07-14-2009, 10:32 AM

Thanks very much for this one, by the way--it must be something they added after I started using iTunes. I did a small dance of joy when I tried it and it worked. Please tell me you have easy solutions to the other complaints in the thread, too!

No problem. How did getting the browser window to appear go? I see that hitting Cntl+B works for it as well.

From people who really complain about iTunes, I think the main problem is knowing too much about computers. :) I still don't understand your need to reformat all of your album information. And if you're willing to go through that much effort in non-iTunes, why not do the same with iTunes?

Dinsdale

07-14-2009, 10:43 AM

From people who really complain about iTunes, I think the main problem is knowing too much about computers. :)

I appreciate the smiley, as well as the sentiment. It must be very difficult for computer designers to try to appeal to both heavy and casual users. As a casual user, I often feel that devices are designed in a manner that is too complicated for my limited use.

Often makes me think of a car. While I guess it would be desirable to be able to do some basic maintenance on the engine should I care to (which I generally don't), my overwhelmingly main interest is simply that it start up when I turn the key and get me where I want to go with no surprises. If I were someone who derived considerable enjoyment from working on and/or customizing my vehicle, I can imagine looking for different things in addition to dependability and affordability.

SenorBeef

07-14-2009, 11:01 AM

I don't get why people have the defense "oh, well, you're just a power user" as a defense to the shittiness of iTunes.

First off, I have a 4 ghz dual core computer with 4 gbs of high speed ram and very fast hard drives. And yet iTunes randomly hiccups and stops working for .5-2 seconds regularly. My computer is probably over a thousand times more powerful than the computer that got us to the moon - but it can't cope with the job of managing a media manager!

Random example of a problem: At some point I noticed one of my drives was filling up when it shouldn't have been. So I searched for the culprit - aha! My podcast directory is 30gb. Except, I set up the option to delete podcasts after I've listened/viewed them. Hmm. Well, I need the space.....

So, I look for the delete function. It only removes entries from your iTunes library, but doesn't actually delete the file. Great. So I just go through and manually delete the files from my podcasts folder. Oops, now there are hundreds of entries in iTunes that have little (!) icons, meaning the file is gone, and when I try to sync my ipod it becomes hundreds of errors.

Okay, so I guess I can delete both the files, and then delete the entries from within iTunes. But.. now those entries are gone. What if I want to redownload a podcast in the future? The entry doesn't even exist anymore....... well I later found out that if you hold shift while clicking the little expansion triangle next to the podcast, it repopulates the podcast list. That's not intuitive, it's not in the help menu anywhere.

That's not a poweruser/casual thing, that's a "this software isn't doing what it's supposed to, and the solution to the problem is a pain in the ass and totally counterintuitive" - and this is only one of about 1700 problems I've had with this shitty, shitty software.

Shot From Guns

07-14-2009, 11:24 AM

But I don't believe any of them feel that they have any significant needs that are not being met by their current technology.

Well, sure. It plays music, that much is sure, and it has some nice features. But this is a thread to bitch about the parts that don't work.

Munch, you're back! Do you have a magical way to crop dead files from my library yet?

Munch

07-14-2009, 11:42 AM

Nope, no idea! I think someone did on the previous page though.

Shot From Guns

07-14-2009, 11:49 AM

Nope, no idea! I think someone did on the previous page though.

No, I'm fairly sure I would have noticed that. I've seen a couple other people bitch about it, though.

Munch

07-14-2009, 12:24 PM

I checked just to be sure, but you didn't mention any software. It doesn't really matter whether you use ID3 tags to store song information or some directory structure. (although ID3 tags are part of the file so work a lot better, and are a lot more rugged and permanent then a file directory)

Uhh... Here's the paragraph you quoted, deleted the first sentence, then asked "what software do you use?":

I also love iTunes although I've never tried using any other program to manage my music. I used to organize my music with just the actual files and folders but my computer liked to randomly rename my songs after a few weeks or months. "Mmmbop" by Hanson would suddenly become "track 1" by Unknown Artist, and so on.

I'm going to guess that he uses iTunes, since he said "I also love iTunes" and that he's "never tried using any other program".

What exactly did you check when you went back?

The Tao's Revenge

07-14-2009, 01:21 PM

Uhh... Here's the paragraph you quoted, deleted the first sentence, then asked "what software do you use?

Maybe you're just trolling, maybe not, I really hope you are, for the sake of the gene pool to which you may be breeding into. I did notice I had you confused with the poster I originally responded to. For that I apologize.

The dude says he never used anything other then itunes, but then complains of files losing artist information before using itunes.

Was it the magic track information deleting fairy?

Some weird malicious or buggy program he was using blanked that file data, even if he was ignorant about what it was doing.

Shot From Guns

07-14-2009, 01:30 PM

The dude says he never used anything other then itunes, but then complains of files losing artist information before using itunes.

Was it the magic track information deleting fairy?

My theory was that there never were ID3 tags recorded at all--he said he organized his files manually (i.e., he would name the files and directories himself). In which case, if iTunes were to for whatever reason try to reorganize things, it would rename the files as being unknown tracks by uknown artists. Is that "magical" enough for you, or should I break it down into smaller words?

Dinsdale

07-14-2009, 01:57 PM

Well, sure. It plays music, that much is sure, and it has some nice features. But this is a thread to bitch about the parts that don't work.

Cool. As I readily admit, I am grossly ignorant in many aspects of technology. But this observation sort of emphasizes another aspect of the difference between how different people design and use technology. If I wanted an ipod, it would be because I wanted something that plays music. The nice features would be a plus. But I wouldn't get too upset that it didn't do various other things as well as the main thing I bought it for.

Sorry to hijack, as I do not have a strong opinion on the topic.

Shot From Guns

07-14-2009, 02:14 PM

If I wanted an ipod, it would be because I wanted something that plays music. The nice features would be a plus. But I wouldn't get too upset that it didn't do various other things as well as the main thing I bought it for.

It's not just that people want iTunes to turn down the bed and make their morning coffee--we want to be able to do simple things. Take the example of easily removing "dead" files (i.e., file that is in the library, but the name was changed or the file was moved or deleted, so iTunes doesn't know where to find it anymore). It should be a very, very simple piece of functionality--software that is over 10 years old can do it. But there doesn't appear to be any way to remove dead files from iTunes other than to manually delete every single one. You can't even sort the files so that the dead ones all cluster together so you can shift-select big chunks.

Smeghead

07-14-2009, 03:36 PM

Random example of a problem: At some point I noticed one of my drives was filling up when it shouldn't have been. So I searched for the culprit - aha! My podcast directory is 30gb. Except, I set up the option to delete podcasts after I've listened/viewed them. Hmm. Well, I need the space.....

So, I look for the delete function. It only removes entries from your iTunes library, but doesn't actually delete the file. Great. So I just go through and manually delete the files from my podcasts folder. Oops, now there are hundreds of entries in iTunes that have little (!) icons, meaning the file is gone, and when I try to sync my ipod it becomes hundreds of errors.

This is one of my biggest beefs. Most of what I listen to is downloaded, loaded onto the iPod, listened to once, and deleted after backing up on long-term storage. Here's how I do it: download into my specially set-up download folder; drag into the iPod playlist via the iTunes interface (without ever importing into iTunes - this is important); back up and delete. Here's how iTunes would like me to do it: download; import into iTunes, causing it to make a new copy of the file hiding somewhere obscure and doubling the disk space taken up; find it in the iTunes library and put it into whatever playlist I want; sync the iPod, which may or may not result in my file being where I want it; then delete the file from (a) the iTunes library, (b) wherever the extra copy got stashed, and (c) the original download folder. My way's a lot easier, honestly.

The Tao's Revenge

07-14-2009, 04:42 PM

My theory was that there never were ID3 tags recorded at all--he said he organized his files manually (i.e., he would name the files and directories himself). In which case, if iTunes were to for whatever reason try to reorganize things, it would rename the files as being unknown tracks by uknown artists. Is that "magical" enough for you, or should I break it down into smaller words?

Itunes sorts by default, you saying he was talking about this behavior while itunes is installed? Because to me it looks it was before itunes.

Let's say you're right though. This means apple's programmers don't even use basic good programming like stopping gracefully, or non destructively, during a failure. And destroying a good identifying file name with "track 1 - unknown artist" is definitely a failure if I ever saw one.

Also, during my flirts with a hackentosh to learn OS X maintenance and configuration (know your enemy, incase you have to make service calls on your enemy), itunes didn't remove my music from it's folders. It made copies in it's own folders. Although that might have been special behavior. I was using the NTFS-3g file system driver to access music on NTFS partitions because the standard OS X NTFS driver didn't have write support. Itunes might have been coded to just make copies of files on NTFS partitions.

Anyway the original files should have been secure with the original file name.

Edit:
Also Smeghead's post seems to confirm it's a behavior across the board, not just in the hackentosh.

The Tao's Revenge

07-14-2009, 04:54 PM

Also berff rereading my post it was kinda rude to you. Sorry yo.

Shot From Guns

07-14-2009, 04:56 PM

Itunes sorts by default, you saying he was talking about this behavior while itunes is installed? Because to me it looks it was before itunes.

Let's say you're right though. This means apple's programmers don't even use basic good programming like stopping gracefully, or non destructively, during a failure. And destroying a good identifying file name with "track 1 - unknown artist" is definitely a failure if I ever saw one.

That's not a failure--that's just using ID3 tags to write filenames, which is what iTunes does if you let it organize your music for you. If you have been manually organizing your music (e.g., with filenames in the format "Artist - Album - Track Number - Track Title"), you might have never bothered to correct the ID3 tags for those files, or even create them at all. The application can't understand that the filename "Andrew Bird - Noble Beast - 02 - Masterswarm.mp3" is anything but gibberish, so instead, it renames it based on the information that is available in the ID3 tags, which, if the tag is blank, would be something like "0 Unknown.mp3."

Also, during my flirts with a hackentosh to learn OS X maintenance and configuration (know your enemy, incase you have to make service calls on your enemy), itunes didn't remove my music from it's folders. It made copies in it's own folders. Although that might have been special behavior.

I forget exactly how this works since I just have all of my music in the iTunes directory so that iTunes keeps it organized (I'm whipped), but IIRC there's an option to copy files to the iTunes directory when you import them to the library.

The Tao's Revenge

07-14-2009, 05:12 PM

That's not a failure--that's just using ID3 tags to write filenames, which is what iTunes does if you let it organize your music for you. If you have been manually organizing your music (e.g., with filenames in the format "Artist - Album - Track Number - Track Title"), you might have never bothered to correct the ID3 tags for those files, or even create them at all. The application can't understand that the filename "Andrew Bird - Noble Beast - 02 - Masterswarm.mp3" is anything but gibberish, so instead, it renames it based on the information that is available in the ID3 tags, which, if the tag is blank, would be something like "0 Unknown.mp3."

If there's nothing in the ID3 tags why not just skip that file, or if necessary/desired, save it to ask the user what to do about it?

I could see skipping some things like album, or year if missing but artist and song title are pretty basic things needed to identify the tune. If for some reason I lost the artist and title data on all my tunes it'd take days to manually rebuild it.

Dead Badger

07-14-2009, 06:37 PM

That's not a failure--that's just using ID3 tags to write filenames, which is what iTunes does if you let it organize your music for you.Some might argue that a piece of software that rewrites filenames based on empty metadata is pretty stupid, and that such stupidity is a failure in and of itself. The presence or otherwise of an ID3 tag is not, after all, that difficult to verify.

The Tao's Revenge

07-14-2009, 08:51 PM

Actually thinking on it, since it doesn't delete the original file, it isn't destructive, just badly implemented.

This having half my classes for the summer done rules. So much time to think about things like this.:)

Shot From Guns

07-15-2009, 11:15 AM

If there's nothing in the ID3 tags why not just skip that file, or if necessary/desired, save it to ask the user what to do about it?

Because it's an application, not a human being. It can't tell if your filename is storing useful information or not. So it's making the filename consistent with the other filenames. Expecting some kind of failsafe from a program that has so many other flaws... Heh. You're more optimistic than I am.

The Tao's Revenge

07-15-2009, 09:43 PM

Because it's an application, not a human being. It can't tell if your filename is storing useful information or not. So it's making the filename consistent with the other filenames. Expecting some kind of failsafe from a program that has so many other flaws... Heh. You're more optimistic than I am.

If, else statements, and Boolean logic statements are programming 101. Are you saying checking that song title, album info isn't null couldn't be accomplished with those?

SeaDragonTattoo

07-16-2009, 05:36 AM

So, I have a new iPhone, and am experiencing iTunes for the first time, rather reluctantly, and with much regret, I was hoping to figure out how to bypass it but I'm not that good with workarounds.

I had iTunes look in a folder I made with just 2 albums in it (just for iTunes and my experiment). It took the tracks from each album and split them up so most of the tracks are sitting nicely with their album name and album art, but there are a couple tracks split off with no album art and no album name.

What the hell happened there? I had it look for album art on the orphaned tracks, and iTunes can't find any, with the rest of the album sitting right above the naked track, now WTF? Talk about unintuitive, I'm obviously not bright enough to figure out how to get iTunes to marry all the tracks with the album they belong to. This makes no sense.

Any words from more experienced iTunes haters but use it anyway?

Munch

07-16-2009, 07:25 AM

I had iTunes look in a folder I made with just 2 albums in it (just for iTunes and my experiment). It took the tracks from each album and split them up so most of the tracks are sitting nicely with their album name and album art, but there are a couple tracks split off with no album art and no album name.

What the hell happened there? I had it look for album art on the orphaned tracks, and iTunes can't find any, with the rest of the album sitting right above the naked track, now WTF? Talk about unintuitive, I'm obviously not bright enough to figure out how to get iTunes to marry all the tracks with the album they belong to. This makes no sense.

Any words from more experienced iTunes haters but use it anyway?

How did you import the albums? Did you use iTunes? I have no idea how iTunes deals with music ripped using a different program, because I've always done it with iTunes. I also don't know why being in that folder would give iTunes a hint as to what the album is - it's not looking at that information.

Depending on the number of songs you have that don't have information, you may just want to input the info yourself. Right click on the title, and select "Get Info". Hit the "Info" tab, and input.

SenorBeef

07-16-2009, 10:56 AM

Shot From Guns

07-16-2009, 11:05 AM

If, else statements, and Boolean logic statements are programming 101. Are you saying checking that song title, album info isn't null couldn't be accomplished with those?

I'm not saying it couldn't be done--I'm aware that it would be relatively simple. I'm just saying you're expecting a level of complexity and nuance that the application generally fails to demonstrate across the board. Plus, what do you do if it has an artist, but no title? Or vice-versa? It's much easier to just decide to treat all files in exactly the same way, rather than try to create special rules for every possible circumstance.

The Tao's Revenge

07-16-2009, 09:49 PM

I'm not saying it couldn't be done--I'm aware that it would be relatively simple. I'm just saying you're expecting a level of complexity and nuance that the application generally fails to demonstrate across the board. Plus, what do you do if it has an artist, but no title? Or vice-versa? It's much easier to just decide to treat all files in exactly the same way, rather than try to create special rules for every possible circumstance.

So it's relatively simple to implement, would enhance the usability of itunes, and would be intuitive to the user, but it's too high a level of complexity?

Kind of sums up the problem's with Apple's philosophy in a nutshell. Be bloody minded into doing it one way and expect to the world to adapt to it's foolishness.

Edit: Any important data that's missing can be prompted for the user to choose an action (skip, type in name, name it "track1", etc.)

SeaDragonTattoo

07-17-2009, 02:33 AM

How did you import the albums? Did you use iTunes? I have no idea how iTunes deals with music ripped using a different program, because I've always done it with iTunes. I also don't know why being in that folder would give iTunes a hint as to what the album is - it's not looking at that information.

Depending on the number of songs you have that don't have information, you may just want to input the info yourself. Right click on the title, and select "Get Info". Hit the "Info" tab, and input.

I had iTunes look in the folder I made for importing MP3s to it. You have to tell iTunes (or any media player) where to look in order to populate the library. I have nearly 30 gigs of music consisting of MP3s and WMAs from stuff I purchased online and my own CD collection. AFAIK, all music stored in this way has tags that pretty much all players can read, and those tags contain track, artist, album art info and the like, so no matter where it's stored the tags are with it, and players like iTunes are supposed to recognize it. Well, iTunes sort of did that.

Your "get info" advise is very helpful, I'm finding iTunes to not be as intuitive as I'd like, so tidbits like yours in this thread have been more useful than you may know!

Are all the songs from the album from the same source and hence labelled the same way?

iTunes will treat a song from the album "Thriller" differently than "thriller" and if their tags have different content, it may find the artwork for one but not the other due to one tag having sufficient info and the other not.

..... or it may just be a piece of shit.

Aha! That did the trick, with the "get info" advice from above, I edited album names so they were more plain and the bracketed stuff, such as [EXPLICIT] and [Digital Deluxe] were removed. iTunes then recognized them and assigned the album art accordingly.

Thanks to you both! Now the cover flow looks neato.

Shot From Guns

07-17-2009, 11:35 AM

So it's relatively simple to implement, would enhance the usability of itunes, and would be intuitive to the user, but it's too high a level of complexity?

Just because the mechanics for implementation are simple doesn't mean the rules to determine the application of those mechanics can't be complex.

Cutting someone with a knife? Simple. Surgery? Complex.

Any important data that's missing can be prompted for the user to choose an action (skip, type in name, name it "track1", etc.)

What if the user just imported several thousand songs?

The Tao's Revenge

07-17-2009, 12:48 PM

Just because the mechanics for implementation are simple doesn't mean the rules to determine the application of those mechanics can't be complex.

Cutting someone with a knife? Simple. Surgery? Complex.

Coding that would be pretty easy. I don't know c++ yet, which I'm guessing itunes is coded in, but some speudo-c++-coding would be:

bool id3Complete;
if (songTitleVar == null) || (albumTitleVar == null) {
id3Complete = false;
...codefor handling the errant files and setting id3Complete back to true if the files have been handled on the spot....

}

else {
id3Complete = true;
}

if (id3Complete == true) {
..normal code...
}

else {
... add to list for attention later...
}

All that does is check for the required data and ask for user input if it's missing. Making the dialogs for that would be relatively trivial GUI work. In addition it's flexable in that it can handle the situation being handled on the spot, or not.

A basic run down it sets a Boolean true/false variable. Then it checks the id3 data to see if the important is complete using an if comparison, and else set. if it's incomplete it sets id3complete to false. if is complete, or completed, then it sets it back to true. Finally an if/else takes action depending on it's case.

What if the user just imported several thousand songs?

Which brings up the question of why would you want thousands of unnamed songs anyway? 'Alright track 476! Let's rock out! \m/".

Anyway this isn't a particularly unique situation. For example file management utilities often have to handle copying files over other files. Standard MO is to give the user an option to repeat an action for that situation. Antivirus software usually finishes the scan then gives a multiselectable listbox of files that need attention.

Either solution is pretty routine.

GargoyleWB

07-17-2009, 01:09 PM

Ferret Herder

07-17-2009, 01:16 PM

Grrr. So I fire up Rhythmbox in Ubuntu since I've been exploring Windows alternatives, and point it to my Windows partition where all of my music is stored. I find that my iTunes folders are filled with double and triple duplicate files of hundreds of songs. Bad sync? Incomplete restore? Who knows.

The kicker, if I run iTunes no duplicates show up, it can't see them for some stupid reason. So I've apparently been wasting several GB of disk space for the past year and a half.
Ugh, are those visible just by browsing the folders too? I keep all my music on an external hard drive and I'm seriously pondering how my drive space filled up so quickly with the (relatively) small amount of music I have on there.

Shot From Guns

07-17-2009, 02:05 PM

Coding that would be pretty easy.

Did you read anything I wrote? For the umpteenth time, yes, it would be easy to code. What is not easy is coming to a consensus about what to do when there's no data in one or more fields (i.e., how to apply the code). I feel like I'm hammering my head against a wall here. Is there something I'm saying that you're just not understanding?

Which brings up the question of why would you want thousands of unnamed songs anyway?

Someone might not want to sit down right then and there and go through several thousand error messages, is what I'm saying.

Anyway this isn't a particularly unique situation. For example file management utilities often have to handle copying files over other files. Standard MO is to give the user an option to repeat an action for that situation.

Poor analogy. If I'm copying files to a directory, there's a good chance I'm going to want to deal with all duplicates the same way. With converting ID3 tags to filenames, I'm probably going to want to look at every single "no tag" file individually.

GargoyleWB

07-17-2009, 02:13 PM

Ugh, are those visible just by browsing the folders too? I keep all my music on an external hard drive and I'm seriously pondering how my drive space filled up so quickly with the (relatively) small amount of music I have on there.

Yes, you can also see them if you browse in Windows Explorer, which I had never done because I trusted the iTunes interface. As others have mentioned, sometimes it "deletes" from the library, but leaves the file behind. I also have an external, and I should check that. I'm probably going to write a little script to look for duplicates and see what turns up since I don't fancy clicking through 80 GB of folders.

The Tao's Revenge

07-17-2009, 11:48 PM

Did you read anything I wrote? For the umpteenth time, yes, it would be easy to code. What is not easy is coming to a consensus about what to do when there's no data in one or more fields (i.e., how to apply the code). I feel like I'm hammering my head against a wall here. Is there something I'm saying that you're just not understanding?

You said some thing about mechanics that didn't actually explain what mechanics was. Then gave an analogy about a skill vs a highly skilled action (cutting vs surgery). Do you really feel coming to a consensus about how to handle missing id3 information is a highly skilled action on the level of heart surgery?

The only time coming to a consensus is that difficult is when the group has two or more stubborn parties. Apple's design motto is built around stubbornness. Do it this or else.

Someone might not want to sit down right then and there and go through several thousand error messages, is what I'm saying.

Yet the wheel to handle this, without it being a problem, is already invented. Multiselect listbox. It's all in a list. If you wanna do em all at once. Also, like I was saying before a choice can be repeated for all errors automatically.

Poor analogy. If I'm copying files to a directory, there's a good chance I'm going to want to deal with all duplicates the same way. With converting ID3 tags to filenames, I'm probably going to want to look at every single "no tag" file individually.

The option you didn't quote (multiselect listbox) wouldn't work because?

Dead Badger

07-19-2009, 01:42 PM

What is not easy is coming to a consensus about what to do when there's no data in one or more fields (i.e., how to apply the code).Of course it's easy; don't rename the file. What else would it do? This isn't nuance or complexity; it's the basic art of writing your program so it doesn't irretrievably fuck up people's data. Winamp manages my music just fine without ever renaming anything, which strikes me as considerably less complex or nuanced than Apple's shoddy attempt.

Anyway, I highly recommend that before importing stuff into iTunes, people clean up crappy tags in something like MP3Tag (http://www.mp3tag.de/en/), which lets you write the metadata based on the filenames using simple pattern matching. It's free, too.

Shot From Guns

07-20-2009, 11:41 AM

You said some thing about mechanics that didn't actually explain what mechanics was. Then gave an analogy about a skill vs a highly skilled action (cutting vs surgery). Do you really feel coming to a consensus about how to handle missing id3 information is a highly skilled action on the level of heart surgery?

Sorry, I thought it would be understood that "mechanics" referred to the actual coding that would change the tag. And I didn't say it was skill versus a highly skilled action--I said it was mechanics of implementation versus rules for applying the mechanics.

Writing code to rename files via MP3 tags, even with a variety of conditions, is easy. Deciding what to rename or not to rename (i.e., what conditions to apply) is complex. No, it's not as complex as surgery--but I never said it was. I was simply offering an example of a situation where the mechanics were simple but the implementation of those mechanics was complex.

The only time coming to a consensus is that difficult is when the group has two or more stubborn parties.

You want two or more stubborn parties? Get a random group of computer users together and have them discuss settings for various applications. Dollars to donuts several of 'em will be ready to rip each others' throats out.

Now, I think it wouldn't be a bad idea for iTunes to have an option somewhere that says, "If <Artist/Title> info is missing from ID3 tag, do not overwrite file name," just to give people the option. But let's be honest: the people who'd know to look for this kind of option are the people who'd have ID3 tags on any songs they had iTunes do the organization on, anyway.

Yet the wheel to handle this, without it being a problem, is already invented. Multiselect listbox. It's all in a list. If you wanna do em all at once. Also, like I was saying before a choice can be repeated for all errors automatically. [snip] The option you didn't quote (multiselect listbox) wouldn't work because?

In antivirus software, you'll probably run into at worst a few dozen warnings. With iTunes, you could hit hundreds or thousands of errors. And with iTunes, the odds that you'll want to treat all the files the same way is pretty small. You'd have to look through the entire list and to see what tag info was available for each song with an error.

Too, the more flexibility you add in, the more confusion you cause for people who aren't good with complex applications. It's much easier for iTunes to just deal with all files the same way.

Of course it's easy; don't rename the file. What else would it do? This isn't nuance or complexity; it's the basic art of writing your program so it doesn't irretrievably fuck up people's data. Winamp manages my music just fine without ever renaming anything, which strikes me as considerably less complex or nuanced than Apple's shoddy attempt.

That's because Winamp doesn't organize your music files. iTunes doesn't rewrite anything without you telling it to organize your files. You can't blame the program for rewriting your filenames based on ID3 tags if you don't fix the ID3 tags before you tell it to do so.

Anyway, I highly recommend that before importing stuff into iTunes, people clean up crappy tags in something like MP3Tag (http://www.mp3tag.de/en/), which lets you write the metadata based on the filenames using simple pattern matching. It's free, too.

Agreed. This kind of program is exactly what I use to update all of my file info before importing the music into iTunes, when I'm adding existing MP3s. I'm able to use my existing filenames to write ID3 tags, which iTunes then uses to organize my music directory.

TL;DR version:

When you tell iTunes to organize your music, it will do it based on ID3 tags. If your files don't have ID3 tags, don't select this option.