Is a male actor refusing to kiss a man as part of playing a gay character anti-gay? [Archive]

SciFiSam

05-22-2009, 10:38 PM

From the second link, it sounds like there were bigger issues involved than just refusing to kiss another actor. Maybe he wasn't being 'anti-gay' - maybe he refused for other reasons.

In general, refusing to kiss someone who was your character's love interest is surely a bit of a big deal in acting, I would have thought. It's not as if anyone expects every actor to fancy the person they're kissing.

I could imagine that, maybe, the actor or his agent thought 'oh no! now I'll be known as the actor who had a same-sex kiss!' but would that be such a bad thing these days?

Sage Rat

05-22-2009, 10:39 PM

Well, why did he refuse? If he's an actor, he has to pretend to be people/things he's not really, that's what acting is about.

I can't think of a legitimate (ie not anti-gay) reason to refuse in this context. If he's too squicked out by the prospect, he should find another occupation where he won't be asked to do anything he wouldn't do in real life.

If I play a murderer in a movie, I don't have to actually kill someone. If I play a prostitute, I don't have to actually have penetrative intercourse with my fellow actors. Acting almost never asks you to do something you wouldn't be comfortable doing in public in real life. They just fake it.

So really the question is whether he was unwilling to fake a kiss (for instance, where all you could see was the back of his head), or if they wanted a full on, obvious tongue action shot.

levdrakon

05-22-2009, 10:43 PM

I'd say not automatically anti-gay, albeit a bit childish to give up a sweet acting gig over something that squicks you out. The second article says he didn't like the "dark direction" his character was taking and so I have to wonder if just his character turning gay is a "dark direction." That shows a less than enlightened attitude.

Small Hen

05-22-2009, 10:54 PM

I don't like the assertion that a person is anti-gay because they make a choice about what they do with their own body. I wouldn't think a person was anti-sex because they refused to shoot a graphic sex scene, so why should someone be labeled as homophobic for making a decision about who they choose to kiss? Homophobia is hating that other people prefer the same sex. Choosing to abstain from the same sex yourself is having control over your body.

That said, it may not be the most professional attitude for an actor to refuse a scene because it makes them feel a little icky. But mild unprofessionalism is not homophobia.

kaylasdad99

05-22-2009, 11:02 PM

On the face of it, ISTM that he's not motivated to keep his gig.

Character "turns gay"? What's that about?

SciFiSam

05-22-2009, 11:17 PM

If I play a murderer in a movie, I don't have to actually kill someone. If I play a prostitute, I don't have to actually have penetrative intercourse with my fellow actors. Acting almost never asks you to do something you wouldn't be comfortable doing in public in real life. They just fake it.

So really the question is whether he was unwilling to fake a kiss (for instance, where all you could see was the back of his head), or if they wanted a full on, obvious tongue action shot.

I kinda see your point, because I can understand actors being a lot more squicked out by kissing someone they don't fancy if it involves tongues, rather than the smearing-over-the-cheek fake kisses they used to do and still do now and then. Also, I could understand a straight actor needing a bit more preperation for that kiss than for straight kisses - more than just 'hey, Jason, you're going to tongue Mike in this next scene.'

Still - kissing someone is part of the job. It's a soap. His contract might well say 'no full-frontal nudity,' but it wouldn't say 'no tongue kissing,' or he wouldn't have got the job.

I'd say not automatically anti-gay, albeit a bit childish to give up a sweet acting gig over something that squicks you out. The second article says he didn't like the "dark direction" his character was taking and so I have to wonder if just his character turning gay is a "dark direction." That shows a less than enlightened attitude.

Exactly - it could mean that he didn't actually walk out over the gay kiss at all.

I like to give the benefit of the doubt and generally assume that disputes like this generally come from personal disagreements or arguments about money or whatever, rather than not wanting to pretend to fancy a man.

My God, though, that actor's Myspace is pretentious! Doesn't mean he's anti-gay or anything but man, he comes across as a fifteen-year-old who's just discovered poetry and thinks they know the meaning of life.

Music: turns emotion into sound: humankind's first manipulation of the invisible. "You are the music while the music lasts." T.S. Eliot.

:smack:

Peter Morris

05-22-2009, 11:21 PM

No. Definitely not. Simply because a male actor refuses to kiss a man doesn't mean he's anti-gay. It's possible that he is homophobic, but this is not evidence of such.

Hail Ants

05-22-2009, 11:33 PM

The term 'anti-gay' is so widely definable as to be almost pointless.

Acting is at it's core playing make-believe. The best actors are the ones who can make-believe anything 100% convincingly. If the guy didn't want to do the scene because he was overly concerned about being perceived as being maybe homosexual in real life or as overly supporting gay rights, I'd say that would qualify as being pretty 'anti-gay'.

But if it was only because he personally couldn't commit to the part because he's unable to fake that small level of intimacy with another male actor then I'd say no, he's not being 'anti-gay'. He is however, being a very poor actor. Acting is not easy, and kissing another dude is just par for the course if you're even remotely serious.

Anyone remember how $20 million-club member Will Smith did exactly this when making Six Degrees of Separation?

choie

05-22-2009, 11:35 PM

Well, he's either anti-homosexual, extremely uptight, or just a downright fool. In this climate? Where soaps are gasping for air and doing all they can to dump as many of their non-essential cast members as possible? Brilliant, dude.

I can't imagine a soap actor who wants to stay in the business being stupid enough to risk a breach of contract for just being a little squicked out. Daytime dramas are notoriously tight with their contracts, and you don't get to be picky about your character's foibles unless you're Tony Geary or Kim Zimmer (i.e. Luke from General Hospital and Reva from Guiding Light -- their shows' biggest stars.

Not to mention, what kind of idiot quits over "a dark turn for his character"? Dark turns are great for actors. On soaps or any continuing series, that's your ticket to a juicy storyline! The best soap characters have all gone through some darker, more angsty periods, at least those played by actors who could handle it.

As far as I'm concerned, he's a doof, a 'phobe, or a short-sighted chicken. Good luck to him after he gets a rep for being difficult.

Small Hen

05-22-2009, 11:37 PM

Anyone remember how $20 million-club member Will Smith did exactly this when making Six Degrees of Separation?

I can't cite, but I remember him later saying that he regretted this - not refusing to do the scene, but taking the role if he wasn't going to go in 100%. The difference between Will Smith and this soap actor is that Will knew from the getgo that he was playing a gay character. This actor did not know that he was taking a role that would require him to kiss men. And a man refusing to kiss men is NOT anti gay.

Would it be anti-straight if Rupert Everet didn't want to have a make out scene with a woman?

Peter Morris

05-22-2009, 11:53 PM

There was an episode (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rejoined)of Star Trek where Dax briefly entered into a same sex relationship. (They had been married in a previos life, when thety were opposite sexes)Terry Farrel reputedly was very uncomfortable about filming the scenes where she had to kiss the other woman.

BigT

05-23-2009, 12:31 AM

I know that, in a lot of places, a male actor being able to kiss a guy is considered the norm. I would think soap operas would qualify in that arena nowadays.

Still, I don't think refusing to kiss a guy is grounds for calling someone anti-gay. It shows a lack of comfort playing something you are not, sure, but only in a certain area. But, then again, soap opera actors are notoriously bad.

I would only think they would kick him out if the not kissing another guy was the last straw. It sounds like the guy had serious problems with the direction his character was going, so he likely refused to do other things as well.

Freudian Slit

05-23-2009, 12:53 AM

I can't cite, but I remember him later saying that he regretted this - not refusing to do the scene, but taking the role if he wasn't going to go in 100%. The difference between Will Smith and this soap actor is that Will knew from the getgo that he was playing a gay character. This actor did not know that he was taking a role that would require him to kiss men. And a man refusing to kiss men is NOT anti gay.

I thought that Will Smith did kiss a guy in Six Degrees? I just saw it on youtube.

Small Hen

05-23-2009, 01:04 AM

I thought that Will Smith did kiss a guy in Six Degrees? I just saw it on youtube.

I think they wanted him to take it further. I don't remember where I read this - it was years ago - but if anyone else could confirm..?

SciFiSam

05-23-2009, 01:04 AM

Would it be anti-straight if Rupert Everet didn't want to have a make out scene with a woman?

It depends on the context - like it does with this soap actor.

If he refused just because the person he was kissing was straight, then yeah, I'd wonder just why he thought pretending to kiss someone of the opposite sex was so distasteful. If it came out (heh) that Rupert Everet were suddenly refusing to kiss women in films, then it would be news.

Markxxx

05-23-2009, 01:16 AM

You have to look at it from a standpoint like this:

The actor took the role expecting one thing and it was changed on him.

Like the musical Hair has a nude scene. Supposing you were cast in the show and have no problem with nudity but you personally wouldn't do it. And supposing your role in Hair didn't call for you to appear naked on stage. Then supposing the director changes the script so your character has to get naked.

If it's something you don't want to do, you have to make a choice, whether it's acting or any other thing your boss in any other line of work, would want you to do.

If you don't like it, either suck it up and toe the mark or quit. It's painfully simple.

Does it make you anti-gay. Not necessarily.

The thing is like everything else in life, it's not black and white of an issue. There are huge gray areas.

As a gay male, I can say in today's world few people seem to be bothered by my being gay, so long as I am not doing anything about being gay, while they are around.

SciFiSam

05-23-2009, 02:01 AM

As a gay male, I can say in today's world few people seem to be bothered by my being gay, so long as I am not doing anything about being gay, while they are around.

I'd say that for my personal life, too.

For my life as a parent and a teacher, not so much. People are really bothered then.

If I were an actor, though, I'd accept that I'd have to sometimes pretend to kiss people I didn't fancy. I'd know that some of my co-workers would be gay. Surely you'd have to accept that the two would sometimes collide? Unless you had some issue about seeming gay when you had built up an image which was against that (and this is a minor soap actor, so, no), why would you be that bothered?

I still bet that his walkout wasn't just about the potential gay kiss.

DaphneBlack

05-23-2009, 02:08 AM

I think they wanted him to take it further. I don't remember where I read this - it was years ago - but if anyone else could confirm..?

They used a double.

I agree it sounds like, in this case, there may have been other factors. Still, I think that if you want to be an actor, you have to be prepared to do things that make you uncomfortable. Being an actor also usually means not having a say in what your character does and how it develops (especially at this level).

A man in real life not wanting to kiss another man is hardly anti-gay. But this seems like the same situation as a 'sex scene' would be for an actor, if he wasn't attracted to his partner. Actors in high school are told to get over this sort of thing.

Hail Ants

05-23-2009, 03:55 AM

They used a double.

I agree it sounds like, in this case, there may have been other factors. Still, I think that if you want to be an actor, you have to be prepared to do things that make you uncomfortable. Being an actor also usually means not having a say in what your character does and how it develops (especially at this level).

A man in real life not wanting to kiss another man is hardly anti-gay. But this seems like the same situation as a 'sex scene' would be for an actor, if he wasn't attracted to his partner. Actors in high school are told to get over this sort of thing.

This is why Will Smith not being able to do it was a pretty big deal. The director was rather pissed, and rightly so. Smith was just starting his acting career and here he was not being able to do something that every wannabe actor nowadays will be asked to do in acting class!

descamisado

05-23-2009, 09:53 AM

This is why Will Smith not being able to do it was a pretty big deal. The director was rather pissed, and rightly so. Smith was just starting his acting career and here he was not being able to do something that every wannabe actor nowadays will be asked to do in acting class!There have pretty much always been RUMORS that Will Smith was in the closet (ex-wife's uncle, etc.). I wonder if he refused to do it because that would add fuel to that fire.

As for the OP, I don't see this as necessarily anti-gay, but just another aspect of the lingering effects of society's squickiness in general with thoughts about what gay intimacy and sex entail.

Can't fault the man for that really but, as an actor and one in a field where there's always hundred lined up to take your place, it does seem kind of dumb not to just suck it up and just do it.

Freudian Slit

05-23-2009, 10:03 AM

Are there ever women who make a big deal out of stuff like this? Same sex kiss, I mean. Or is it more than most actresses make a huge deal out of getting naked?

Annie-Xmas

05-23-2009, 11:26 AM

Henrichek

05-23-2009, 12:09 PM

If he refused to kiss an African-American woman, does that make him a racist?
If he refused to kiss a Jewish woman, does that make him a Jew-hater?

Yes, yes, and to the OP, yes. We're talking about a kiss here, not hot gay sex.

I disagree. What makes a kiss acceptable but not hot gay sex? Why draw the line just after kissing? Your argument would work for any objection beyond kissing as well. For myself, and most other men I know, kissing another man is more than just being a little squicked out. It's considered very distasteful and majorly disgusting. Is this different in the US?

In my opinion that doesn't make one anti-gay or homophobic. Refusing one's character to be gay at all might be so, but demanding real kissing without faking it (by not actually kissing and just implying it to the viewers through use of camera angles or lighting) seems to be asking way too much from a straight man unless it has previously been agreed on in a contract.

TWDuke

05-23-2009, 12:17 PM

This is why Will Smith not being able to do it was a pretty big deal. The director was rather pissed, and rightly so. Smith was just starting his acting career and here he was not being able to do something that every wannabe actor nowadays will be asked to do in acting class!1993 wasn't nowadays. I don't think you ever see Tom Hanks' lips touch Antonio Banderas' in Philadelphia, and Hanks is still getting kudos for his "brave" portrayal of a gay man.

Also, as a wannabe actor who has taken way too many acting classes, I can say I have never been told to kiss a student of the same sex. In my experience, students are generally not told to kiss anyone in class exercises. In fact, it's usually understood that you don't kiss people unless you're sure it's OK with them.

ETA: I'll kiss whomever they tell me to for a steady gig on a soap opera.

Chronos

05-23-2009, 12:21 PM

If an actor took a role that he knew up front was gay, then he should expect that kissing another man is likely to be part of that role, and if he was uncomfortable with that, he shouldn't have taken the role in the first place.

Here, though, the character was apparently originally straight, and the actor had no indication that he'd be going gay later in the series. Undoubtedly, some actors would go along with it anyway, but different people have different comfort zones, and I find it hard to fault the actor here.

It seems analogous to the situation with nudity, to me: Some actresses refuse to do nude scenes, and that's their prerogative. Such actresses should not accept roles where they play a stripper, since you can't really play a stripper well without doing nude scenes. But if an actress were already playing a character when the writers decided she should become a stripper, the actress would be right to object.

descamisado

05-23-2009, 12:22 PM

Side note: I was in play that was a takeoff on Gone With The Wind, called Gone With The Blend (all the actors were black).

There was a scene where I (I'm gay) had to force myself on and kiss Harlot on the mouth.

The difficult part was not the kiss, but the slap she gives me afterward. She never could get the understanding that is was not supposed to be a real slap.*

* As another character says in a typo'd line that the director decided to keep, "I felt like I been slappen into hell!"

levdrakon

05-23-2009, 12:36 PM

It seems analogous to the situation with nudity, to me: Some actresses refuse to do nude scenes, and that's their prerogative. Such actresses should not accept roles where they play a stripper, since you can't really play a stripper well without doing nude scenes. But if an actress were already playing a character when the writers decided she should become a stripper, the actress would be right to object.I see it as becoming a massage therapist. You get your license, open up shop and an obese person walks in, and you're suddently all "whoa! What I meant by massage therapist is 'hot chicks only!"

Not that that makes a person anti-fat, but people need to consider what they're chosen career field might entail. If you can't stand blood, maybe you don't really want to be a nurse.

Krokodil

05-23-2009, 01:42 PM

I think it's within an actor's purview to decide which roles and scenes may hold back his career. Things that worked well for Jake Gyllenhaal didn't work so well for Ned Beatty.

descamisado

05-23-2009, 01:45 PM

I think it's within an actor's purview to decide which roles and scenes may hold back his career. Things that worked well for Jake Gyllenhaal didn't work so well for Ned Beatty.The link says,

According to reports, Engen quit before his contact was up because he didn’t like the “dark direction” his character was going in on recent episodes, not due to his believing it would hold back his career.

I'm thinking Ned Beatty's career turned out fine, at least according to imdb (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000885/).

Roland Orzabal

05-23-2009, 01:58 PM

Dewey Finn

05-23-2009, 02:45 PM

As far as I'm concerned, he's a doof, a 'phobe, or a short-sighted chicken. Good luck to him after he gets a rep for being difficult.
I agree with this. Lots of actors would kill for a role in a soap opera. Heck, I'll bet that a lot of them would submit to the casting couch for the big break.

TWDuke

05-23-2009, 03:58 PM

The second article says he didn't like the "dark direction" his character was taking and so I have to wonder if just his character turning gay is a "dark direction." That shows a less than enlightened attitude.According to that link, the actor who took over the role says, "I get to indulge in some interesting, perverse, warped scenarios," so I suspect there's more than a simple romantic kiss involved here.

levdrakon

05-23-2009, 04:37 PM

According to that link, the actor who took over the role says, "I get to indulge in some interesting, perverse, warped scenarios," so I suspect there's more than a simple romantic kiss involved here.

Well, he's supposed to kiss Yani Gellman. (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0312454/) That doesn't strike me as all that gross, gay or straight. Here's a better pic and more dish. (http://www.afterelton.com/blog/lylemasaki/is-matt-muhey-rafe-torres-new-love-interest-the-young-and-the-restless)

Branco adds that Engen hasn't been happy with his character's villainous ways and has previously staged a few sickouts in protest.

Really though, we're talking The Young & The Restless. Just how awful could it be? If nothing else he sounds like a prima donna who hopefully already has another job lined up.

Gustav

05-24-2009, 10:32 AM

There are a lot of people in this thread arguing some variant of the point that actors should be prepared to do things they themselves wouldn't normally do, because, hey, it's part of the job.

Okay, for the sake of argument, point granted. You have successfully shown that the guy is a bad actor. Now, please complete the logic chain from "bad actor" to "anti-gay", because I'm not seeing it.

It's possible I guess that he's not anti-gay, but was simply genuinely surprised that an acting gig in a daytime soap entailed being asked to pretend-kiss someone he wasn't attracted to. But he'd have to be pretty damn dense.

Gaudere

05-24-2009, 11:21 AM

My God, though, that actor's Myspace is pretentious! Doesn't mean he's anti-gay or anything but man, he comes across as a fifteen-year-old who's just discovered poetry and thinks they know the meaning of life.

Yes, everyone please check out his song:

"Again, the patient merit rouses
And warns that though we keep to foot
This path outstretched beyond the curve
Returns, so here should stay we put."

...so here should stay we put? "here should stay we put"!?

kaylasdad99

05-24-2009, 02:12 PM

Yoda: What the hell meant that?

Walloon

05-24-2009, 04:16 PM

They used a double.They didn't use a double. Will Smith just put his face in front of Anthony Michael Hall's (the camera is behind Smith), and a kiss was dubbed in later.

I think it would be funny if Vanity Fair did one of those movie "alumni reunion" photos they're famous for, except this time, Hall would be swooning in Smith's arms, getting a big on-camera smooch.

lissener

05-24-2009, 05:28 PM

Why did I know, almost unconsciously, when reading the thread title, that when I looked to see who the OP was, I'd see the name astro? Why was I so viscerally sure of this?

lissener

05-24-2009, 05:35 PM

Whether he's anti-gay or not is debatable. What's not debatable is that he's anti-acting and should find a different profession.

TBG

05-24-2009, 10:16 PM

Whether he's anti-gay or not is debatable. What's not debatable is that he's anti-acting and should find a different profession.

:rolleyes: Oh please, there are plenty of acting jobs that wouldn't require him to do anything he's uncomfortable with. The vast majority of roles for men don't involve kissing other men. It's ridonkulous to say it's something any actor should expect and be willing to do just because they're actors. If anything, the writers/producers/whoever that came up with the changes fucked up by turning the character gay without first making sure the actor didn't have a problem with kissing dudes. Maybe they're anti-common sense.

lissener

05-24-2009, 11:06 PM

It's ridonkulous to say it's something any actor should expect and be willing to do just because they're actors.
Uh . . . good thing no one said that then, I guess.

astro

05-24-2009, 11:58 PM

Why did I know, almost unconsciously, when reading the thread title, that when I looked to see who the OP was, I'd see the name astro? Why was I so viscerally sure of this?

The ancients called it cosmic consciousness (http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=888&dat=19680505&id=cR0MAAAAIBAJ&sjid=sFwDAAAAIBAJ&pg=4603,3697919).

panache45

05-25-2009, 12:14 AM

Perhaps gay actors, male and female, should start refusing to kiss anyone not of their preferred gender. There would be damn fewer on-screen kisses.

Straight guys can be such sissies.

Carmady

05-25-2009, 12:27 AM

Does not wanting to do something mean you think it is wrong?

I don't think so.

There are healthy foods out there I find disgusting even while knowing it would be good to eat them.

For all we know, this guy thinks kissing another man would be a very good thing, nothing wrong with it, but unfortunately is too grossed out to do it.

It doesn't even make him a bad actor, though it does decrease his versatility and rightfully damages his job prospects.

Henrichek

05-25-2009, 08:50 AM

Perhaps gay actors, male and female, should start refusing to kiss anyone not of their preferred gender. There would be damn fewer on-screen kisses.

Straight guys can be such sissies.

Are there a higher percentage of gays in the acting business than in the general population? I still guess that they are a definite minority and wouldn't really be a problem. If gay actors are grossed out enough by kissing the opposite gender, then I wouldn't hold that against them either, and a different actor should be chosen to play the character which has to make opposite gender kisses.

To me it seems pretty straight forward. Gay actors for gay characters unless a straight actor signs off that he/she is alright with kissing the same gender, and straight actors for straight characters unless a gay actor signs off that he/she is okay with kissing the opposite gender.

Just because it's okay for you to kiss the same gender doesn't mean that others feel the same, nor does it make them sissies. What other things that people feel is totally gross should an actor have to do to not be a sissy?

Lamia

05-25-2009, 09:12 AM

There are plenty of Dopers with more acting experience than me so I'm sure someone knows more about this than I do, but it's my understanding that stage/screen kissing almost never involves tongue or anything. There's a whole technique to stage kissing that means it will look good to the audience without being more intimate than necessary for the actors. It's unlikely that this actor was asked to play tonsil hockey with another man.

Anecdote: I had a gay friend in high school whose role in the school play involved kissing an actress. He was rather uncomfortable with the idea -- I remember him saying to me "She's a nice girl and everything and I don't want to offend her, but seriously, ew!" But some practice with stage kissing made him feel a little better about it, and in the end he just dealt with it. And this was a 16 year old kid in a school play. If this soap actor can't manage that level of professionalism then it's surprising he's managed to make a career out of acting.

Zephyurs

05-25-2009, 10:30 AM

It's probably better to call him homophobic (in the literalist sense of the term) instead of anti-gay.

Cleary, he's scared of or squicked out by homosexual actions and does not want them to be an immediate part of his life. No one's asking him to be attracted to the person he's kissing. There've been plenty of heterosexual actors who kissed and weren't at all into each other but went ahead and kissed anyway. Presumably he would be willing to kiss a lady he wasn't attracted to. The only change here, then, would be making it an activity labeled homosexual. He's against performing his job just by that fact, which makes him homophobic. In all fairness, it's a very light homophobia that a large majority of males share.

Anti-gay, though, has much more political implications, and it would be very ungenerous to call him that.

billfish678

05-25-2009, 10:42 AM

what if you had a vegetarian actor who either HAD to eat REAL meat for a scene or be fired?

Yeah they could fake it, but they can also fake kissing too.

Zephyurs

05-25-2009, 10:51 AM

what if you had a vegetarian actor who either HAD to eat REAL meat for a scene or be fired?

That would mean that the vegetarian is meatophobic. Big surprise.

I don't think anyone is denying that he had the right to quit. Every actor has certain lines they won't cross in the name of art; that's why most movies that have nudity explicitly say so. The crux of the issue is his presumably different reactions to kissing a man and kissing a woman. If he would quit for either of them, then he's just anti-kissing. But quitting merely because he's squicked out by engaging in a homosexual activity makes him homophobic. Not homophobic in the sense "all gay people should die!" but homophobic in the sense that "ewww actions that fall outside traditionally prescribed sexual activity are scary and gross!"

Captain Carrot

05-25-2009, 11:03 AM

Cat Fight

05-25-2009, 11:22 AM

To me it seems pretty straight forward. Gay actors for gay characters unless a straight actor signs off that he/she is alright with kissing the same gender, and straight actors for straight characters unless a gay actor signs off that he/she is okay with kissing the opposite gender.

What about sweeps week, when 9/10 sitcoms feature girl-on-girl kisses? Anyway, that's ludicrous, but I can't tell if you're joking. Bisexuals would run Hollywood, for christ's sake!

This guy sounds like a bit of a douche and not much of an actor, but perhaps he's just gambling that his religious fanbase will carry him a lot longer than secular soap watchers (a few of them have already commented on his MySpace page). Maybe he sees the end is near for his character or career and wants to be able to live out his years in Lifetime movies or another Left Behind sequel. And he's pretty sure playing a gay character (which will inevitably lead to real-life rumors) will hurt his chances.

Henrichek

05-25-2009, 11:28 AM

Oh, come off it. Actors play roles, not themselves.
Right, but people are people and they have limits. You might think kisses are acceptable but others might not, it doesn't make them a bad actor. Where on your sexual intimacy scale would you draw the line separating what's acceptable and what's not acceptable to throw into the script requiring an actor to do? I'd expect this to work the same way with non-sexual gross things.

The job.

I think the problem here is the definition of the job. It seems that the contract did not cover this character trait, or there would be no controversy if he had signed to it. If this had been known up front there would have been no problem.

Captain Carrot

05-25-2009, 11:31 AM

Right, but people are people and they have limits. You might think kisses are acceptable but others might not, it doesn't make them a bad actor.Kids in high school plays kiss. Professional actors cannot plausibly claim that kissing is beyond their limits, or if they do, they shouldn't be in the business.

It seems that the contract did not cover this character trait, or there would be no controversy if he had signed to it. If this had been known up front there would have been no problem.If this were an ordinary sitcom, I would have less of a problem; soap characters can change radically to keep the audience interested in the show. Nobody knows what the character is going to be like in 5 years, not even the writers.

Henrichek

05-25-2009, 11:31 AM

What about sweeps week, when 9/10 sitcoms feature girl-on-girl kisses? Anyway, that's ludicrous, but I can't tell if you're joking. Bisexuals would run Hollywood, for christ's sake!

I'm not joking. Well, it probably shows that I don't watch this sort of shows much, but is it really that common for characters to "turn gay" all of a sudden? Is that really the norm?

glee

05-25-2009, 11:48 AM

From the original link:

"According to reports, Engen quit before his contact was up because he didn’t like the “dark direction” his character was going in on recent episodes. "

So a) it's secondhand reporting and b) the gay kiss was just part of the problem.

Guinastasia

05-25-2009, 02:54 PM

I'm not joking. Well, it probably shows that I don't watch this sort of shows much, but is it really that common for characters to "turn gay" all of a sudden? Is that really the norm?

Considering that people are constantly returning from the dead in soap operas, I'd say that "turning gay" is pretty tame.

(And yes, said actor is being an idiot)

panache45

05-25-2009, 03:02 PM

Anecdote: I had a gay friend in high school whose role in the school play involved kissing an actress. He was rather uncomfortable with the idea -- I remember him saying to me "She's a nice girl and everything and I don't want to offend her, but seriously, ew!" But some practice with stage kissing made him feel a little better about it, and in the end he just dealt with it. And this was a 16 year old kid in a school play. If this soap actor can't manage that level of professionalism then it's surprising he's managed to make a career out of acting.

I had that exact same experience in high school . . . except that the girl hated me, because I got the part rather than her boyfriend. Just before the kiss she ate a clove of raw garlic, as if I weren't already repulsed by her.

The drama teacher, who knew I was gay, and who found out about the garlic, commended me for pulling off one of the most difficult stage kisses in history.

lissener

05-25-2009, 03:43 PM

Henrichek

05-25-2009, 03:53 PM

Wow. That's pretty . . . fucked up.

How so? I think it's rather obvious that you pick actors who agree with the job specifications. What is the problem?

Clivas

05-25-2009, 04:09 PM

Why does anyone have to be anything to not want to do something that they find gross. Just because I don't want to kiss another man doesn't mean I am freaked out by other guys doing it. I don't get grossed out by other people eating liver but I'm not going to do it myself. Personal preference. If I was an actor and the roll called for me to eat liver you can bet I'd do my best to get around it and find a way to make it seem like I was eating liver when I really actually wasn't. What's wrong with that?

Also, just because a lot of people would kiss someone they didn't want to for a role, doesn't mean everyone should do the same thing for fear of being called a bad actor or a douche bag or have to lose their job. I mean if I was in a porn and I thought it was just regular action and it wasn't stated before hand and the director said "Hey, now we're going to have bill come in and while you double team the girl, why don't you tickle his balls." No. I would absolutely refuse. I wouldn't take one for the team and just do it. I wouldn't shrug and say...well, it comes with the territory. Would i then be homophobic because I didn't want to tickle another man's balls? There are lines people draw with what they are comfortable with and some people's lines are in different places than others. It doesn't make them homophobic, it makes them people.

Captain Carrot

05-25-2009, 04:12 PM

Clivas

05-25-2009, 04:19 PM

Except that to make it really analogous you'd quit rather than eat liver in any way, even in pretend.

A number of people might just do that very thing if they couldn't come to a compromise about something they didn't want to do. People do it in other jobs all the time, why can't they do it in Hollywood?

choie

05-25-2009, 06:51 PM

A number of people might just do that very thing if they couldn't come to a compromise about something they didn't want to do. People do it in other jobs all the time, why can't they do it in Hollywood?

Because in soaps, they have contracts.

Also, in soaps, especially now, you're an idiot if you think you're gonna walk into another role after having a hissy and breaking your contract. Now, certainly it's his prerogative if he wants to be an idiot who screws up his career because ew manlips (and pleeeease, as if "the dark side" of his character would be a problem otherwise? on a soap??? That's the ticket to Emmys and squeeing fans, for god's sake!). But we're also free to make assumptions about his motives and intelligence therefor.

God. You know how many soap actors hate the actresses playing their romantic interest and vice versa? That's all part of the biz. When you sign up for playing a role on a soap, you don't know if you're gonna end up as the sweetheart heroine or the blackmailing, poisonous, baby-switching harlot who knowingly slept with her own half-brother. Given the promise of a juicy, intriguing storyline, one that increases the depth of the role and allows them to be a potential 'breakout' character, any actor worth his or her salt would prefer the latter role.

Soaps are dying right and left. He may not have another venue for his subpar acting skills. This dude should've hopped on that male-on-male kiss like white on rice.

levdrakon

05-25-2009, 07:23 PM

I read some speculation the character might not even be gay anyway. He's supposed to be devious and conniving enough to fake the kiss just lure the gay character into some diabolical plan. Sheesh, I may have to start watching just to find out. :D

If I were an actor I'd love a role like that.

Hey, show of hands, how many here know current James Bond heartthrob Daniel Craig went gay *and* full frontal nude before Bond. Bonus points for naming the movie without peeking.

Of course, no one forced him to do it, but it sure didn't hurt his career.