Old people and stuck gas pedals again.

[madd1]

Recent headlines from "obscurestore"

Driver 66 Gold Cadillac crashes into two-week-old restaurant

Driver, 84, injures three after gas pedal gets stuck

Woman, 71, says new shoes caused her to plow into Starbucks

Driver, 72, says stuck gas pedal caused her to crash into home.

What is the trend here? Is there a trend here? Or does the press not report the under age 60 stuck gas pedals?

[fiddlesticks]

I tend to chalk these up to age-related momentary bouts of confusion. It's obviously an embarressing thing to do, so instead of admitting that they just did something stupid they say the throttle got stuck. There is also the very real fear that they may lose their licenses.

This is by no means a new phenonmenon. One of my grandmothers, who showed no signs of Alzheimer's or related senility before her death, drove through a bank window back in the 1970s. Oops. She had a driver's license right up until she died and I don't believe she was involved in any other accidents. Just one of those things...luckily no one was injured...she was especially embarrassed because her husband was the bank's vice president so everyone knew who she was.

One WAG as to why younger drivers don't do this might be that their reaction times might be better. I'm willing to bet many inexperienced teenaged drivers accidently hit the gas while in drive while meaning to back out of a parking space but they are probably quicker to react to the situation and thus are able to avoid the front window of the Starbucks.

[barbitu8]

A more important question is what to do if your gas pedal sticks. That happened to me years ago, when I was still young (not that I'm not now). I turned off the ignition. I exited the expressway and coasted down the ramp to a gas station which was luckily at the bottom. I don't know what else one can do, but that worked for me.

So I suppose that that happens much more frequently than the media reports, but in most cases, no serious harm is done. It could be younger people reflexively know what to do, but, on the other hand, older people in our wisdom should also know what to do.

[straykat23]

Just yesterday a similar circumstance here in Sacramento, although the gas pedal really was stuck! Cops determined this by 200 feet of skid marks that led to where the car finally stopped. The driver plowed into a 4' or so retaining wall on the top level of a parking garage. A huge chunk of concrete fell to the sidewalk below and the car teetered precariously over the edge, yet no one was injured. Retaining wall was built to withstand a car driving at 60mph; they figure this one was at 40. BTW, the car was a 1990 BMW.

[DougC]

- - - Almost all reports of stuck gas pedals and unintended accelleration are driver error: of the hundreds attributed to the Audi 5000 in the US a few years back only a few ended up undetirmined. The only way to prevent it entirely is to remove the accellerator entirely.
- The ignition will always turn the engine off.
- In the US, it is one of the AARP's dirty little secrets that some oldsters use prescription drugs or combinations thereof that probably should disqualify them from driving entirely. Increased testing would help, but the percentage of accidents is still small and many congresspeople are nearing that age themselves, so don't hold your breath.
- And younger people do it too. A local convenience store has burn-out marks almost all the way across the floor where a 30-something lady drove forward instead of reverse a couple years back, through the double doorway and right down the main aisle of the store. Luckily there wasn't anyone in the way to hit. The owner of the store had left the tire marks on the floor as kind of a conversation piece. - MC

[peace]

In the carburator, the butterfly was spring loaded. Unless the spring was physically broken (easy to show), the "pedal" cannot stick. In fuel injected cars, the fuel is not injected, if there is no pressure on the spring-loaded pedal. The computer will shut the engine if the fuel is injected while there is no mechanical pressure on the gas pedal.
Police cannot diagnose "stuck pedal" by skid marks (unless in California).
----------------------------------
Peace

[CurtC]

Dave Barry's noticed this too. In his column at http://www.miamiherald.com/content/archive/living/barry/1999/docs/dec10.htm , he says about Florida:
People down here already have enough trouble driving. For example, we have an inordinate number of accidents caused by people driving into buildings. And these are not buildings that have been carelessly left in the roadway: These are buildings carefully placed off to the side. Yet people drive into them! I suspect that somewhere in the official Florida driver's manual, there's a picture of a building, with the words: "If you see one of these, aim straight for it!"

[mangeorge]

This "old people" driving is a dilema. How else is one supposed to get around? Old or young, you do need a car in many parts of this country.
I'm 55 now, and I think that I would be willing to give up my license at 70 or so. If I could count on on-demand, reliable transportation from a taxi service or some alternative. Free, of course. I certainly won't want to sit in my home and rot. No way.
But I won't want to run over anyone either.
BTW; I don't think that the stats back up you youngsters worries about old folks driving. So relax, OK? :D
Peace,
mangeorge

[Hello Again]

mangegeorge, I have recently hear a bit on NPR about the oldersters and the car. :) Anyway, this report found that in accidents involving senior citizens, they were often caused by failure to yield the right of way, NOT by bad reflexes. The study recommended a refresher course on right of way rules.

I agree with you that mobility is an issue for many. On the other hand, an elderly man in my complex clearly has Parkinson's (or some other issue that causes shaking) and he drives all the time. A scary thought for me. Is his right to mobility greater than the hazard he poses to other drivers? Who decides?

[LouisB]

mangeorge, I have argued this "older" driver issue many times. I guess all I can say is that people in our age group pay much lower insurance premiums than some of the people who regard us as bad drivers. That has to prove something, but I am less and less sure of what that something is.

peacesaid:
In the carburator, the butterfly was spring loaded. Unless the spring was physically broken (easy to show), the "pedal" cannot stick. In fuel injected cars, the fuel is not injected, if there is no pressure on the spring-loaded pedal. The computer will shut the engine if the fuel is injected while there is no mechanical pressure on the gas pedal.
Police cannot diagnose "stuck pedal" by skid marks (unless in California).

Speaking as a former mechanic, from back in the carburetted days, the butterfly valve can certainly stick whether the spring is broken or not. If you think otherwise, you obviously haven't overhauled many carburetors. As to the fuel not being injected (in fuel injected cars) if there is no mechanical pressure on the gas pedal, how do you suppose these cars idle? And, how do you know what police can and cannot diagnose?

[Duck Duck Goose]

The trouble with turning off the ignition to cope with a supposedly stuck gas pedal is that you have just disabled the power steering, too.

I will be back in a while (I hope) with a cite for the study that the National Highway Transportation Safety (or whatever it's called) did, proving that any car's brake pedal is more than equal to the task of stopping a car with its engine racing, even with it accelerating up to 100 mph. They said, in other words, that all those stories about old people and stuck gas pedals are 99.9% hooey. The pedal wasn't stuck--Grandma just stepped on the gas instead of the brake and froze.

[justwannano]

The gas pedal stuck down on our old Dodge 4x4 the other day. It was about -10 and nothing was starting. I got in the truck and put my foot to the floor while cranking and the pedal stayed there.The linkage was white with frost. I visually traced the linkage and noticed the knuckle was frosted up. I had just bought a new,to me at least, product to spray on windshields to help defrost them. Sooo instead of crawling under a frozen up truck in the snow at -10 I thought What the hell. I tried it. It worked. The only thing I noticed is that if the deicer was 70 degrees it would have worked easier. Before spring I'll have to give that knuckle a shot of oil or it will rust.
Now what was I saying???

[Mr2001]

South Carolina Drivers Licensed By Age and Sex as of January 27, 1998 (http://www.sciway.net/statistics/scsa98/tr/tr9.html)
Reported South Carolina Traffic Accidents by Age of Driver: 1997 (http://www.sciway.net/statistics/scsa98/tr/tr15.html)

Drivers 15-24 were in 52,617 accidents, and there were 385,808 licensed drivers age 15-24 (13.63% accident rate). Drivers 25-34 were in 42,601 accidents, and there were 543,167 licensed drivers age 25-34 (7.84% accident rate). Drivers 65 and older were in 14,546 accidents, and there were 347,857 licensed drivers age 65 or older (4.18% accident rate).

My understanding was that older drivers caused far more accidents per driver than younger ones; however, the statistics don't seem to back this up. I suspect that most of the licensed drivers age 65 or older don't actually drive on a regular basis. Any idea where to find statistics on that?

[barbitu8]

Originally posted by Duck Duck Goose
The trouble with turning off the ignition to cope with a supposedly stuck gas pedal is that you have just disabled the power steering, too.



When it happened to me I did not have power steering. BTW, I still don't.

As far as the butterfly valve on the carburetor, forgetting about the fact that few cars have carburetors now, that was not the only reason a gas pedal can stick. I believe in my case it was a linkage problem, and that is more likely than something happening in the carburetor, I believe, altho I'm CERTAINLY NOTa mechanic.

[Guinastasia]

A professor of mine once told us about being hit head on by an elderly driver. When she asked the guy and his wife why they didn't respond to her honking the horn, the wife said, "Oh honey, he can't hear!" I'd have been like, "Then what the *%#@**&* is he doing driving?"

[obfusciatrist]

Stuck throttles CAN happen. I was driving from Seattle to Everett one night and sped up to pass a car on I-5. Once I am past that car I take my foot off the gas to shed some speed. Nothing happens, the car just keeps going at full throttle.

I've a car full of friends (I was in college at the time) and they don't notice anything is wrong until I tell them. I was going about 85 when I started my maneuvers.

I put the car in neutral but the engine kept going at full force and sounded like it wanted to explode so I put it back in gear. Turned on my hazards, pressed the breaks as hard as I could without locking up the tires and judiciously applied the emergency brake until I could pull over and finally come to a stop. Took almost 2 miles to do this (fortunately traffic wasn't bad).

When I got pulled and could look at the engine (while talking to may mechanically inclined dad on a phone) I found that a throttle flap (not the proper name) was stuck in the open position. I pushed it down and never had another problem with it.

But the stories of the OP are just user error, I'm sure.

[Jeep's Phoenix]

Originally posted by rmariamp
On the other hand, an elderly man in my complex clearly has Parkinson's (or some other issue that causes shaking) and he drives all the time. A scary thought for me. Is his right to mobility greater than the hazard he poses to other drivers? Who decides?

There is an older man who works with my dad who does the same thing. His hands do shake horribly, to the point that he has great difficulty even moving a computer mouse. However, the shaking in his hands ceases if he is gripping an object--such as a piece of paper, or a steering wheel--with both hands. He has an excellent driving record, and from my observations poses little risk to other drivers. The man you describe could have a similar situation.

[mangeorge]

Could it be that older drivers are actually safer (better) drivers than younger folks? That the real problem is that they tend to drive slower, and take forever to park etc? In other words, they just get in the freakin' way?
Guinastasia, my youngest daughter used to refer to the horn as the "hello", because her mom was one of those many people who used it as just that. Honk honk, wave wave, hellooo.
My hearing is still fine, but I tend to ignore honks.
Deaf persons do just fine without the ability to hear,IMO.
Peace,
mangeorge

[Billy Baroo]

I had a beater deathmobile Skylark that had a sticky gas pedal in the late '80s. This only happened near the end of its life, when all its wheels were threatening to fall off in mid-transit, but I would have to stick my toe under the pedal to pop it up sometimes IIRC.

A coworker of mine has a Dad with Parkinson's. In the coworker's experience, it's not the shaking that makes those who suffer from this disease unsafe drivers, it's the impaired reflexes. For instance, if he falls forward he cannot get his hands up in time to catch himself, and he falls on his face. For this reason they won't let him hold the baby unless he's seated.

Even though he still insists on driving, no one will agree to be his passenger.

FWIW, when I periodically exhume my car from whatever snowbank it's in here in Chicago and brave the traffic, I find that the sample group of idiots on the road, emboldened by the bad weather for god-knows-what reason, has no discernable skew for age.

[Duck Duck Goose]

Okay, here we go. The actual report I think is here, except that it isn't there. :(
http://www.volpe.dot.gov/opsad/pubs.html
It's called "Pollard, J. K. and Sussman, E.D. An Examination of Sudden Acceleration. Final Report No. DOT TSC NHTSA 89-1." But as far as I can tell, they don't have it posted anywhere on the Internet. It says you can e-mail Pollard at http://www.volpe.dot.gov/opsad/bios/jpoll.html and ask him to send you a copy.

So here is some other stuff regarding what they call "Sudden Acceleration" or sometimes "Sudden Unintended Acceleration" or "SUA".
http://www.autonews.com/html/main/stories/nhtsa15.htm
[NHTSA investigator Bob] Young said in a brief interview that a number of theories about sudden-acceleration causes have surfaced over the years, but no one is able to make a connection between the theories and real-world incidents.

Young, referring to past studies, said incidents seem to stem mostly from panicked motorists mistakenly stomping on the gas pedal instead of the brake. Often, they are older drivers in unfamiliar vehicles, the research shows.

He noted that sudden-acceleration complaint rates drop precipitously after vehicle models that have been the subject of the complaints are equipped with shift-lock devices. These require motorists to step on the brake before shifting out of park.

NHTSA’s biggest study of sudden acceleration, completed in 1989, was conducted in part because of hundreds of complaints about Audi 5000 cars.
http://www.safetyforum.com/sua/
Even NHTSA joined Chrysler in arguing that such accidental accelerations were fairly common, that they were caused by driver error, and that there was no scientific evidence that they occurred independent of drivers' errors.

Chrysler went a step further: it performed a "test" which it claimed proved that sudden accelerations were simply the result of drivers stepping on the accelerator instead of the brake. This test consisted of a company engineer simultaneously depressing the accelerator and brake of a Grand Cherokee, both while parked and while in motion, to show that the brakes were more powerful than the engine.

Then there's a fascinating transcript of ABC's 90-second sound bite about this, especially concerning the notorious Jeep Cherokee "sudden acceleration".
http://more.abcnews.go.com/onair/ptl/html_files/transcripts/ptl0507a.html


Stuck gas pedal and turning off the ignition:
http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/hdbk/pgs56thru58.htm
Stuck Gas Pedal
• Shift to neutral.
• Apply the brakes.
• Keep your eyes on the road.
• Look for a way out.
• Warn other drivers by blinking and flashing your emergency lights.
• Try to drive the car safely off the road.
• Turn off the ignition when you no longer need to change direction.


http://members.aol.com/is1lael/page5/chap10a.htm
( Pg 79 ) STUCK GAS PEDAL---Hook your toe under the pedal and see if you can free it.If not,shift into neutral and use the brake to slow down and get off the road.If you have power steering or a locking steering wheel,don't turn off the ignition,because you will lose power steering or not be able to steer at all.

[Harmonious Discord]

I have had the throttle stick twice in my life. The first time was in a 69 Impala. The throttle spring had come off. I could only fully brake and down shift until I was down to about twenty, then throw the car into neutral. The engine was running at maximum. I stopped and threw open the hood after turning the ignition off. The car continued to run full bore until the coil wire was yanked by hand. A racing engine doesn't stop just because you turn the ignition off.

The car was stuck at about sixty then I did the push to the floor and that will fix it manouver. The car had reached at least 90 before I start the down shifting and braking. I stopped about fifteen feet before an intersection.

[Guinastasia]

SH*T! STupid clear field!
So, what happens when a person can't hear a siren?
I personally, will never get into a car with my gramma again, or my grandfather, for that matter. I wish I could take both of their licenses away.

[SSgtBaloo]

Originally posted by rmariamp
mangegeorge, I have recently hear a bit on NPR about the oldersters and the car. :) Anyway, this report found that in accidents involving senior citizens, they were often caused by failure to yield the right of way, NOT by bad reflexes. The study recommended a refresher course on right of way rules.???

Buildings have right-of-way? Who'da thunk it? ;)

~~Baloo

[mangeorge]

Originally posted by Guinastasia
SH*T! STupid clear field!
So, what happens when a person can't hear a siren?
I personally, will never get into a car with my gramma again, or my grandfather, for that matter. I wish I could take both of their licenses away.

But you will get into a car driven by one of those 20 yr olds, short hair on the sides, long on top, driving a black Accord with big wheels with low-profile tires and noisey custom mufflers, and he thinks it's a Ferrari?
:D
Sorry, that's hard to say in one sentence, but you know what I'm talking about.
Where's handy?
I'm sure that deaf people aren't denied drivers licenses.
Peace,
mangeorge (Probably spins do-nuts, too.)

[Guinastasia]

The problem was, this guy couldn't hear, or SEE. I have no problem with the hearing impaired driving. However, I don't think you want someone who is BLIND out there on the roads.
Honestly, I didn't mean it to be nasty. But obviously this driver was NOT what one would call very safe behind the wheel.

[seriousart]

Not to Guinastasia bash, but just to reiterate, Deaf people are certainly not denied driver licenses. Think about how much you really use hearing to drive. Outside of the occasional siren, which is always accompanied by bright flashing lights, and perhaps the occasional warning beep there's not much for the ears to do in aiding a driver. Other than help you sing along to your favorite song (often at top volume).
Not to mention that many deaf people can still hear loud noises. My sister, who is profoundly deaf, can still hear/recognize a siren.

It's when people become confused or unaware that they become trully dangerous.

[Guinastasia]

I didn't say DEAF people. I said older people, who have poor reflexes, who cannot see, hear, or react so well.

[evilbeth]

I can't really remember from the last time I had my license renewed but do they ask for a list of medications taken daily? I don't seem to remember filling out any information on that.

Don't you think that may be important? I mean, what if someone is on a drug that, I don't know, causes them to fall asleep without warning? (I don't know if there's one that does that, I'm just using it as an example.) Isn't that something that the people essentially give permission for people to drive should know about?

Is it just left up to an individuals discretion as to whether or not he thinks he should be driving under the influence of this medication? I know that were he to be taking this medicine and cause a wreck that he would probably be cited for driving under the influence but if the accident could have been prevented, why would it not be?

I mean, the person could be issued a restrictive license stating that he could only drive when not on that particular medication or that another licensed driver must accompany him at all times.

[mangeorge]

Guinastasia, I wasn't bashing you. I promise. As I near the age under discussion here I find myself feeling a little defensive about being blamed for endangering others.
Here's your statement that led me to believe that you were, indeed, talking about deaf persons;
"Oh honey, he can't hear!" I'd have been like, "Then what the *%#@**&* is he doing driving?"
Sorry.
Peace,
mangeorge

[Homer]

Damn, most of this stuff has been covered, but if I don't chime in, I'd feel like I was losing my Board Mechanic Guy (TM) title.

But you will get into a car driven by one of those 20 yr olds, short hair on the sides, long on top, driving a black Accord with big wheels with low-profile tires and noisey custom mufflers, and he thinks it's a Ferrari?

Few mistakes: He's not 20. He's 16, and JUST got his license. Short sides, long top is SOOO 5 years ago! It's a Civic, or Prelude, not Accord. He's a riceboy. (http://www.riceboypage.com)

A racing engine doesn't stop just because you turn the ignition off.

:eek: Yes it should! The ignition disconnects the coil from the battery and alternator. If your engine didn't cut off, it was dieseling, meaning continuing to run by self-detonation of the gasoline. This is caused by too high of compression and too low of octane, IIRC. Usually brought on gradually by 'dirty' gas that burns poorly and builds up carbon deposits, slowly raising compression by decreasing the size of the combustion chamber. Try tearing off the head and cleaning out deposits next time that happens, and running a higher octane.

Stuck gas pedal and turning off the ignition:
http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/hdbk/pgs56thru58.htm

And blow your engine!! Turn off that ignition! At speeds above 20 mph, your vehicle is moving fast enough that lacking power steering will not affect your manuverability. In addition, if you're not strong enough to steer your vehicle without power steering, are probably also not able to walk unaided, or feed yourself. No offense to DDG.

( Pg 79 ) STUCK GAS PEDAL <snip>

This guy is a fool. You don't lock your steering column with the ignition at "ACC", the column locks when set to "OFF", which is the last key position, the one you remove the key at. In SOME cars, ACC is behind OFF, but there is still a secondary key position so that your vehicle may be disabled by retain steering capability. See my comments above for his remarks on power steering (which is a more recent addition to cars that A/C, disc brakes, or power windows).

A few short notes on throttles:

The 'pedal' is connected to the firewall above your foot, in 99% of cars. The pedal is on an axis. When you push down (in) on the pedal, it pulls up (out) on the throttle cable. The throttle cable runs through the firewall (metal wall in front of you) and attaches to the throttle body (in a fuel injected car). When the cable pulls on the throttle body, it acts against another axis, and pulls open the throttle butterfly (the metal plate thingy Obfus spoke of) which opens wider, allowing more air to flow into the engine, along with more gas, which makes the engine run faster. The throttle cable on the throttle body is acted against by a spring which is normally 15-25 lbs of pressure. This pressure is enough to get the throttle closed rapidly if need be, and closed completely. Idle is continued by various bypasses of the throttle butterfly in the throttle body. But I digress.

While it is possible for the butterfly to become obstructed and stuck, modern intakes and air filters preclude that in most instances. The throttle cable used to be an iffy part, because of it's propensity to rust open or closed, or seize, or whatnot, but nowadays are usually made with a plastic or rubber sheathing over 90% of their length, which, combined with the strong spring pressure, is usually (if not almost always) enough to force the throttle closed.

The bushing on the pedal axis can deteriorate and stick, or the carpet can stick the pedal, or whatever, but if you take basic care of your car, your pedal is not likely to stick, if your car is less than say... 15 years old.

Now, what you SHOULD do if your pedal sticks:

1. See if you can't free it with your toe
2. If #1 fails, turn off ignition (ONE click only) and pull over
3. Once pulled over, turn off car completely, reach down, and pull pedal free.
5. If pedal will not come unstuck, pop hood, find throttle body (Where metal meets plastic tubing, right after the air intake and filter), take off the intake, and check to see if the butterfly is wedged open (by a stick, pebble, small piece of metal or plastic, bit of squirreled away food [by rodent, normally] or other such obstruction.) and, if so, clear obstruction.
5. If no obstruction, replace intake, grab throttle cable lever (with spring-load, it's usually on the rear, driver's side of the throttle body) and try to free the cable that way.

If all else fails, beat your car with a hammer, scream a few times, pull your hair, and have a nervous breakdown.

--Tim

[mangeorge]

You pegged it. Homer. I followed your link, and that's exactly the persona I was referring to.
So please forgive my middle age myopia. :)
Peace,
mangeorge

[minty green]

Mr2001, thanks for the data.

Drivers 15-24 were in 52,617 accidents, and there were 385,808 licensed drivers age 15-24 (13.63% accident rate). Drivers 25-34 were in 42,601 accidents, and there were 543,167 licensed drivers age 25-34 (7.84% accident rate). Drivers 65 and older were in 14,546 accidents, and there were 347,857 licensed drivers age 65 or older (4.18% accident rate).

Looks good for the old folks, except that a flat accident percentage rate doesn't tell you anything about accidents per mile of driving. Probably 80% of the miles on my car are due to my having a job, which I one day hope to not have in that far distant day when I'm 65+. And I'm with mangeorge, gimme a decent trasport option when I hit grandma's age and I will happily turn off the turn signal and get out of the left hand lane.

[mangeorge]

minty green.
:D :D :D
mangeorge

[Philster]

Originally posted by Mr2001
South Carolina Drivers Licensed By Age and Sex as of January 27, 1998 (http://www.sciway.net/statistics/scsa98/tr/tr9.html)
Reported South Carolina Traffic Accidents by Age of Driver: 1997 (http://www.sciway.net/statistics/scsa98/tr/tr15.html)

Drivers 15-24 were in 52,617 accidents, and there were 385,808 licensed drivers age 15-24 (13.63% accident rate). Drivers 25-34 were in 42,601 accidents, and there were 543,167 licensed drivers age 25-34 (7.84% accident rate). Drivers 65 and older were in 14,546 accidents, and there were 347,857 licensed drivers age 65 or older (4.18% accident rate).

My understanding was that older drivers caused far more accidents per driver than younger ones; however, the statistics don't seem to back this up. I suspect that most of the licensed drivers age 65 or older don't actually drive on a regular basis. Any idea where to find statistics on that?


Misuse of statistics. What you need is an accident per miles driven ratio. I't a safe bet to say that the elderly drive fewer miles per household. I can't site the actual number, but people 18-50 drive around 13,000 miles per year on average, where people 50-65 drive about 8-10k, and people over 65 drive fewer than 7,000 miles per year. I learned this from my sister who sells auto insurance.

There are also some insurance loop holes in the way they calculate rates that favor the elderly. Again, the industry looks at things in "years" since the last accident, not "miles" driven since the last accident. The elderly tend to drive larger cars, fewer sports cars and as a group are driving relatively safe cars. YES...the industry does offer better rates on bigger cars. People are also less likely to sue an elderly driver. So, from an insurance standpoint, and measuring things fiscally and annualy, old folks aren't a bad risk at all. But, mile for mile, teens and the elderly are the most dangerous drivers.

[Many Crows]

My accelerator has "stuck" 3 times. 91 Escort GT, passing at about 70 to 75 mph and gaining. After throwing it into neutral and having the engine race big time I figured out that the floor mat had shifted and the pedal was under it. At least the second 2 times I knew what had happened and was able to correct it fairly quickly. I am pretty careful these days about checking the mat on a regular basis.

[Padeye]

Many "stuck" gas pedal incidents are nothing of the sort. I was involved in one about 22 years ago riding with my grandmother and mother in grandma's '74 LTD. Going down a neighborhood street someone ran the stop and clipped the rear of her car spinning us 90 degrees to the left. My grandmother stomped on the brake with all the force she could muster... unfortunately it wasn't the brake. The car went through a fence and careened over several little hills in a nartual desert area on a neighbor's property while my mother was screaming for her to take her foot off the gas. My mother finally had to grab my grandmother's leg and pull it off the pedal, and managed to stop us just as we bumped into the back fence adjacent to the pool. I hadn't thought about that in years.

[Guinastasia]

I'm sorry, Mangeorge, I should've been more specific. Honestly, I know you weren't bashing me, and I wasn't being nasty.
What I should say, that I would respond with, "Well, then why didn't he SEE me almost hit him? If he can't see, hear, or pay attention to what's going on, what the hell is he doing driving?"

It scares the crap out of me to think of my paternal grandparents on the road. My grandmother drives like a snail and doesn't pay attention to road signs, and my grandfather drives like maniac. He's too reckless, and he's on medication. Not bad in and of itself, but if he mixes it with caffeine-he falls asleep, believe it or not! Reverse effect. And he still drinks coffeee though he's not supposed to, and he can't see. He also has epilepsy, and doesn't take care of himself the way he should. Trust me, this man should NOT be allowed to drive.

[Mr2001]

Philster:
Misuse of statistics. What you need is an accident per miles driven ratio. I't a safe bet to say that the elderly drive fewer miles per household.

I couldn't find any first-hand statistics (no doubt someone else could who knows where to look), but here (http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/PPSC/Research/apr95.htm#licensing) is a blurb from the Washington State DOT that acknowledges the higher per-mile accident rate among elderly drivers.

[mangeorge]

What's "per mile" got to do with the overall picture? Isn't it a good thing that these folks do drive fewer miles? You're still going after the smallest segment of the total of accidents, aren't you?
Why not concentrate on that which does the most harm?
Do I ask too many questions for one post?
Peace?
mangeorge? (Huh?)

[Harmonious Discord]

Homer I know it was dieseling. I was in high school at the time, and pretty well broke. It ran fine after reattaching the spring. The engine was at full throttle and I knew that I could have gone over a hundred. I can't say how I know that, just use your imagination. I just wanted to point out that turning off the ignition will not always shut down the engine. This is a less than perfect world.

[justwannano]

Many years ago I bought a Torino from a guy who had lost his licence OMVUI. I drove it for a few months before winter set in. While backing from our driveway into the gravel road we lived on the throttle stuck. The engine raced but I couldn't stop because I was backing into about 6" of snow and I was sure I would get stuck. It was late winter and the plows had pushed snow up on both sides of the road. To stop would have meant it would have to sit until spring.So I drove it that way to the corner and parked it in an unused driveway. About half way there a rod let loose. I now had a junk car.
Anytime that engine races uncontrolled you have that possibility.

[Homer]

Originally posted by Phobia
Homer I know it was dieseling. I just wanted to point out that turning off the ignition will not always shut down the engine.

You are absolutely correct.

I read it as an engine built to race, not an engine that is racing. Because of the mis-read, I thought the point you were making is that a 'racing-built engine' won't necessarily stop when you cut the ignition.

Sorry.

I had an Escort that dieseled sometimes. PITA.

--Tim

[Mr2001]

mangeorge:
What's "per mile" got to do with the overall picture? Isn't it a good thing that these folks do drive fewer miles? You're still going after the smallest segment of the total of accidents, aren't you?

A high accident rate per mile means that they are dangerous drivers, and the only reason they don't represent a larger portion of the total accidents is that they don't drive very often.

Think of it this way: Say you know a person who drives very rarely, but he's such a bad driver that every time he goes out he gets into an accident - say one accident per 20 miles. He only drives 40 miles a year, so he isn't responsible for a large number of accidents. But wouldn't you agree that he's still a dangerous driver, and he shouldn't be on the road?

[mangeorge]

But wouldn't you agree that he's still a dangerous driver, and he shouldn't be on the road?
Sure I would, Mr2001. But I'd tend to concentrate more of my efforts (and worries) on the younger drivers, who drive a lot more miles and cause a lot more accidents. In fact, I'd probably sentence the kid to comminity service. Driving grampa (who's lost his license) to the park so he can feed the pigeons. ;)
See what I mean, jellybean?
Peace,
mangeorge

[racinchikki]

Stuck gas pedals have been the declared cause of 3 fatal accidents in NASCAR and CART in the past 15 months. But I don't think it's conclusive.

Other than that, I've nothing to add.

[mangeorge]

Originally posted by racinchikki
Stuck gas pedals have been the declared cause of 3 fatal accidents in NASCAR and CART in the past 15 months. But I don't think it's conclusive.

Other than that, I've nothing to add.
Were any of the drivers over the age of 75?
Did I manage to be the first with this smartass remark?
;')
Peace,
mangeorge

[The Asbestos Mango]

So, like, does anybody have a link to some statistics about how many accidents elderly drivers cause, but aren't actually involved in?

I'm talking about situations where somebody swerves or slams on the brakes to avoid a collision with some oldster who is doing something like running a stop sign, or turning right out of the left hand lane, or left out of the right hand lane, and ends up cracking up with a third vehicle, while the oldster putzes along, unaware of the destruction left in his/her wake.

I was once nearly run over by some seventy-odd year old guy. I was crossing the street, and he had his turn signal on. Me, thinking a turn signal meant that he intended to turn, stepped into the street, and he kept going straight, honked at me, and kept right on rolling turn signal flashing merrily for at least another half-mile...