Beyond the pale

[Amok]

Having just used this phrase in a thread in the Pit, I started thinking about its origin. An online dictionary (http://www.dictionary.com/cgi-bin/dict.pl?term=pale) defines the term thus:


Idioms:
beyond the pale
Irrevocably unacceptable or unreasonable: behavior that was quite beyond the pale.


It also included this interesting definition of pale:


Pale. The medieval dominions of the English in Ireland. Used with the.


I hadn't been aware of that, but now that I am, I think I see where the term comes from. "Beyond the pale" being a shorthand way of saying "such behavior would be appropriate outside of the Pale, but is inappropriate within the bounds of civilization" or along those lines, which has survived down to us.

So, anyone know if I'm right? Has there been research into the etymology of the phrase? Citations on its early usage and such?

[Shodan]

I was told it originated with Catherine the Great of Russia, who banished the Jews of Russia to a certain zone delimited by 'the Pale'. Anti-Semitism would explain the usage.

Happy Hanukkah to Jewish Dopers! Ramadan Kareem to Muslims! Merry Christmas to Christians! Happy New Year to everyone!

[jaimest]

I always thought it had to do with "The Pale of Settlement", a line across old Russia which Jews were forbidden to cross until the late 1800's.
The Jews had to live in the western fringe of the empire, and if they went "Beyond the Pale", they would be arrested or killed...
But it makes more sense that it come from England or Ireland.
Is a "pale" just a general term for a line that can't be crossed by certain people?

[Palandine]

When I lived in Ireland, I was told that Cromwell evicted all the native Irish from the east coast to "beyond the Pale." There's an Irish publishing house called Beyond the Pale Press. I'm not sure exactly where The Pale was; I always gathered it was essentially northwest of Dublin.

Cromwell's thoroughly icky attempts at genocide also led to the phrase "to hell or Connaught," FWIW.

[Alessan]

IIRC, "Pale" is a Middle English term for "Border". I'm not sure about the origins. Maeglin?

[Amok]

The more common defitions for pale were listed as:


1. A stake or pointed stick; a picket.
2. A fence enclosing an area.
3. The area enclosed by a fence or boundary.


So, any boundaried area could be referred to as a pale, I suppose.

[JeffB]

The Mavens' Word of the Day explanation for beyond the pale (http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=19960906) is that it comes from the Latin word palus meaning "a stake", with a pale also being a fence made of pales.

[waterj2]

I'm going with the idea that it's origins are along the idea of "over the line". My dictionary gives definitions for pale2 as:

1. a stake forming part of a fence
2. a boundary

The term is also used in heraldry for dividing things vertically (palewise, or per pale). For example the blazon of a shield that's blue on the left and white on the right would read "per pale, azure and argent". A group of things arranged vertically are considered to be "in pale".

[Earl Snake-Hips Tucker]

The Word Detective's take on it:

http://www.word-detective.com/back-q.html#pale

[JeffB]

I should add that it is the "fence" sense of pale that led to the sense of "border", which led to the usage of English Pale. The Russian Pale came much later.

[Amok]

Interesting answers. There seems to be a bit of disagreement, though. Of the two sites linked to, the Mavens' claim the phrase evolved from the figurative sense of a pale as a boundary, and don't mention the English Pale.


Several geographical locations are named Pale... None of these has anything whatsoever to do with the expression beyond the pale.... Beyond the pale, then, means 'beyond the limits of propriety, courtesy, good sense, etc.'. This parallels other expressions such as "you've really crossed the line this time." Since this word pale is relatively uncommon today, the origin of the phrase with "beyond" is unclear to most of us.


However, the Word Detective site does mention the English Pale, and claims that is the origin of the phrase.


The phrase "beyond the pale" dates back to the 14th century, when the part of Ireland that was under English rule was delineated by a boundary made of such stakes or fences, and known as the English Pale. To travel outside of that boundary, beyond the pale, was to leave behind all the rules and institutions of English society, which the English modestly considered synonymous with civilization itself.


Anyone else with some insight into this?

[yojimbo]

I'm from Dublin. I have always assumed it was indeed related to "The Pale". Here's a map (http://www.irelandstory.com/maps/historical/map1450.gif) of 1450 Ireland showing it.

Amok's Word Detective quote pretty much nails it as far as I'm concerned.

[JeffB]

The Mavens v. the Word Detective -- tonight on Celebrity Deathmatch!

Here's what I've found in the OED. The first "English Pale" reference, from 1494, is actually for the territory of Calais in France. The first reference to the "English Pale" in Ireland is from 1547. I wonder if yojimbo's map is applying a later term to an earlier area. There is also a reference to the "English Pale" in Scotland from 1549. (FTR, the first reference to the "Pale" in Russia is from 1890.)

It seems to me that "English Pale" was used to refer to areas controlled by England in areas outside of England proper. The three areas cited are from approximately the same time period. The earliest cite for pale meaning "limit, boundary" is from around 1400.

I'm leaning toward the Mavens on this one. It seems more logical to me that beyond the pale meaning "over the line" comes from the "limit, boundary" sense of pale. I don't see why the usage would come strictly from the English Pale in Ireland versus the other English Pales. Of course, the usage of "English Pale" comes from a similar sense.

[yojimbo]

You could be right JeffB it could be a generic term as opposed to the Irish one.

but from the same site where the map came from.
The Norman decline continued for the next half century. By 1450, English control in Ireland had been reduced to a 20 mile wide strip around Dublin, known as the Pale. The English defended this land, and the Irish were unable to completely drive the English off the island. The Pale was surrounded with a fence to keep out the Irish. (This is where the phrase 'Beyond the Pale' comes from.)

http://www.irelandstory.com/past/history/12501450.html

[Zenster]

To repeat what others have said...

Just as the word "fence" is a foreshortened form of "defence" or "defense", so is the word "pale".

Pale is a reduction of "impalement". The impalement was a set of sharp outward pointing stakes that were set into the earth outside the perimeter of a given fort. The impalement served to prevent large, unobstructed charges of men or horses against you. I would tend to assume that the pale was just within bowshot of the fortress walls to allow the defense of the placement against disassembly by your foes.

When you wandered outside of the pale, you were at the mercies of whatever bands of blackguards and thugs that might be passing through. When you were sufficiently offensive to the powers that be in a given place, you were probably left outside the pale of that location to fend for yourself. Ergo the current meaning of the phrase. To go beyond the pale signifies that your conduct or words are worthy of expulsion past the limits of safety afforded by your settlement.

[JeffB]

Actually, Zenster, you have that a little backwards. The word impale (to enclose with pales) came from the word pale. Impale was first used in the 1500s, whereas pale goes back to the 1300s. You are right, however, on the fence/defense point.

[ruadh]

Took the folks to Dublinia today, and had a good look at their map outlining the Pale. The boundary line ran basically from Dundalk to Kells to Navan to Dalkey.

[ruadh]

That should read "Naas" instead of "Navan". Oops.