What presidents were mentally unstable while president?

[Sampiro]

This is largely conjecture of course since few ever publicly discussed any psychological problems they may have had, but for some the evidence seems incontrovertible.

Richard M. Nixon seems to have been if not the most unstable then the best documented in his instability. His paranoia rising from "annoying but manageable" levels to irresponsible and vicious, his midnight breakdowns, even some evidence of being outright delusional, all very well documented (and not in FROST/NIXON but in primary sources).
==================================
Franklin Pierce's drinking definitely rendered him incapable of decision upon occasion, and it increased rather than decreased after he killed a woman with his carriage while driving drunk at night.
======================

I've read accounts that James Buchanan was vain to the point of neurosis and may have had OCD or something like it [everything had to be EXACTLY perfect on his jacket for instance, or when he shaved] but while he's not a well respected president it's hard to call him unstable.
===============
Abraham Lincoln is an odd one to try and place on this list. He frequently appears on lists of famous mentally ill people, with plentiful accounts of his ongoing battles with depression and oral accounts that he was suicidal and had to be restrained on at least two occasions (generally known as the "Ann Rutledge" episode [that he had after his possible girlfriend Ann Rutledge died] and the "Mary Todd" episode [when he broke his engagement to Mary Todd and had to be cared for at his friend's plantation in Kentucky for a few months]).
What's odd though is that the Civil War, which was enough to bring anybody charged with as much responsibility as Lincoln had, and who was as hated as Lincoln in both the Confederacy and the Union (he was certainly not without millions of supporters, but there was a large and vocal faction who despised him in the north) to nervous collapse, he held it together. His friend/law clerk/campaign worker (by some accounts something like a foster son) Elmer Ellsworth was killed practically in earshot of the White House almost immediately when the war began, his friend Edward Baker (for whom his second son was named) was killed a few months later, and throughout the war various friends and in-laws or their relations would be killed. He endured the death of Willie, by all accounts his favorite son, early the next year, and throughout the war he was plagued with nightmares. What's amazing though is that while he grieved and mourned (twice looking at his son's corpse after it was entombed) and worried very much about his wife (and her stunts and the seances she held in the White House), throughout he held it together enough to be a very hands on when needed commander-in-chief (actually considered leading troops himself during one of his "why won't they fight?!" frustrations) and routinely keep 18 hour days, so it's hard to call him mentally unstable while president.
=========

Any you would call unstable (and don't just say a name, but state why you would call them unstable).

[Rigamarole]

Andrew Jackson. And my explanation is this (http://www.cracked.com/article_15895_5-most-badass-presidents-all-time.html).

When the 1828 election rolled around, a lot of people were terrified when they heard Andrew "Old Hickory" Jackson was running. If you're wondering how a guy we're calling a bad ass got such a lame nickname, it's because he used to carry a hickory cane around and beat people senseless with it, and if you're wondering why he did that, it's because he was a fucking lunatic.

[Captain Amazing]

Warren Harding suffered from depressions and tantrums, but that was less an organic illness, and more due to his being overwhelmed by the presidency.

[Captain Amazing]

Andrew Jackson. And my explanation is this (http://www.cracked.com/article_15895_5-most-badass-presidents-all-time.html).

Well, the problem with that is that it isn't true. He got the nickname because he had the reputation of being "tough as hickory" as a general. Of course, as president, he did go on to beat somebody with a hickory cane, but that was somebody who had just tried to assassinate him, so I don't know that that counts.

[Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor]

LBJ was obsessed with his height, & used powered lift chairs to tower over others. After he left office, his grew his hair long, hippy long, & lived in seclusion.

Does drug addiction count? JFK was hooked on painkillers.

[emmaliminal]

Abraham Lincoln ... frequently appears on lists of famous mentally ill people, with plentiful accounts of his ongoing battles with depression and oral accounts that he was suicidal and had to be restrained on at least two occasions...
What's odd though is that the Civil War, which was enough to bring anybody charged with as much responsibility as Lincoln had... to nervous collapse, he held it together... while he grieved and mourned ... and worried very much about his wife ... throughout he held it together enough to be a very hands on when needed commander-in-chief ... and routinely keep 18 hour days, so it's hard to call him mentally unstable while president.Please pardon all my ellipses, but you know you write better ellipsisable text than anyone.

No president to add here; just wanted to say that while IANAShrink, the pattern you describe is not all that unusual for folks with depression. Which I'm sure you (Sampiro) know, but I thought it bore adding. Some depressives, and I count myself among them, don't allow themselves to "indulge" in depressive action (as opposed to depressive thought, or desire, or need, or what have you) when duty calls. Some folks take that as a sign that the depression wasn't really real; if responsibility could overcome depression, why doesn't the depressed person just take responsibility for themselves? but it doesn't work that way.

[Dragwyr]

Didn't Ronald Reagan have mild symptoms of Alzheimer's in the last part of his presidency?

[Oslo Ostragoth]

Andrew Jackson. And my explanation is this (http://www.cracked.com/article_15895_5-most-badass-presidents-all-time.html).

That is the awsomest link I have read in perhaps six months.

[Oslo Ostragoth]

LBJ was obsessed with his height, & used powered lift chairs to tower over others. After he left office, his grew his hair long, hippy long, & lived in seclusion.

Does drug addiction count? JFK was hooked on painkillers.

I thought LBJ's hair, post presidency, was kinda cool.

[Koxinga]

That is the awsomest link I have read in perhaps six months.


More on Jackson, from Cracked (http://www.cracked.com/article_16705_6-most-utterly-insane-attempts-kill-us-president.html):

Jackson was an avid duelist so it can be assumed that he had long conquered his fear of guns, bullets and people firing guns loaded with bullets in his general direction. This is not the type of man you try to assassinate on impulse. Not unless you like the feeling of a hickory cane on your ass.

[drastic_quench]

I thought LBJ's hair, post presidency, was kinda cool.
Anyone have a picture of this?

[Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor]

Anyone have a picture of this?I doubt it.

He was a recluse after he left the White House.

[Koxinga]

Well, I found this . . . (http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3261/2716743459_0c2606ae38.jpg)

[DMark]

Didn't Ronald Reagan have mild symptoms of Alzheimer's in the last part of his presidency?

I came in here to say the same thing. I believe Nancy would restrict his access to the press, and would often stand next to him and whisper clues when he was in public.

As much as I really hated Reagan for lots of reasons, I have to admit, I admired Nancy for doing the best she could to support her husband and basically keep his illness a secret until after he left office. Yes, it was dangerous to have someone like that "leading the free world", but I believe it was really only in the last few months of his second term that it started to become obvious.

[Shodan]

Didn't Ronald Reagan have mild symptoms of Alzheimer's in the last part of his presidency?

No, he did not. Of course if you have a cite from some medical doctor who actually examined him and diagnosed this during the last parts of his Presidency, feel free to post it.

Regards,
Shodan

[NicePete]

No, he did not. Of course if you have a cite from some medical doctor who actually examined him and diagnosed this during the last parts of his Presidency, feel free to post it.

Regards,
Shodan

How dare you impugn the reputation of Saint Ronnie! Why, I'll have you know that he was such a good and true American that diseases which would attack us lesser humans would never dream of infecting the Greatest. President. EVAR!

Little known fact -- Ronnie, er, pardon, President Reagan -- had the beginnings of a case of athlete's foot in 1985. However, after a few stern words from Ed Meece and Lee Atwater about respecting the greatest leader the free world has ever known (or will ever) the fungus was overcome with shame and beat a hasty retreat from the President's wingtips.

[Rocketeer]

Just finished reading The Great Influenza, and the author makes the case that Wilson's mental capacities were diminished by his recent bout with the Spanish flu, leading him to capitulate to the Brits and French on Armistice terms; the resulting harsh peace set the stage for you-know-who and WWII.

[De La Rue]

Well, I found this . . . (http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3261/2716743459_0c2606ae38.jpg)

Come on, that's Tom-Hanks-Da-Vinci-Code hair. You could get away with that in a formal setting.

[Zsofia]

Just finished reading The Great Influenza, and the author makes the case that Wilson's mental capacities were diminished by his recent bout with the Spanish flu, leading him to capitulate to the Brits and French on Armistice terms; the resulting harsh peace set the stage for you-know-who and WWII.
The other commonly-held theory for that is stroke-related damage.

[ShibbOleth]

How dare you impugn the reputation of Saint Ronnie! Why, I'll have you know that he was such a good and true American that diseases which would attack us lesser humans would never dream of infecting the Greatest. President. EVAR!


To be fair, there is no direct evidence* that Reagan was affected by Alzheimer's during his presidency. Sometimes it's a tough distinction between senior moments (mixing up names, misspeaking, etc) and Alzheimer's. But the formal diagnosis came well after he'd left office. And most everyone who could make observations has said that he was not affected while in office. True, those would mostly be people who were anyway loyal to the President, which means that anything we say about his mental capacity is purely speculative. He did also suffer a head trauma while in the White House, which is documented but any immediate effects of that would have been temporary and IMO would not fall into the category of "mentally unstable".

Hopefully it's a very, very rare thing that we truly have a president who is unstable, political sniping aside.

- Shibb, not at all a Reagan fan

[Captain Carrot]

I'm surprised nobody has yet said "You gotta be a little off in the head to want that job!".

[Snickers]

Just finished reading The Great Influenza, and the author makes the case that Wilson's mental capacities were diminished by his recent bout with the Spanish flu, leading him to capitulate to the Brits and French on Armistice terms; the resulting harsh peace set the stage for you-know-who and WWII.

Damn you Rocketeer! That's what I wanted to post. It's an interesting theory, anyway.

[handsomeharry]

political sniping aside.



Good one, ShibbOleth!
:D

As for Lyndon, if anyone can recall, long hair was quite fashionable back then.

[Katriona]

I can't remember where I read it, but I do remember seeing somewhere fairly recently that Eisenhower was "known" (in the open secret way, like JFK's women) to be a pretty mean drunk.

[Koxinga]

Regarding Wilson, I thought it was common knowledge that his stroke left him more or less incapacitated in the last months of his presidency, leaving his wife to run things more or less. Or is that still just theory?

[Shodan]

How dare you impugn the reputation of Saint Ronnie! Why, I'll have you know that he was such a good and true American that diseases which would attack us lesser humans would never dream of infecting the Greatest. President. EVAR!Right, right - and Obama is a Muslim, and Clinton had all those people killed, and so on.

If Jack Chick were a Democrat, he would be a valued resource for the SDMB.

Regards,
Shodan

[Sailboat]

To be fair, there is no direct evidence* that Reagan was affected by Alzheimer's during his presidency. Sometimes it's a tough distinction between senior moments (mixing up names, misspeaking, etc) and Alzheimer's. But the formal diagnosis came well after he'd left office.

I thought that Alzheimer's isn't definitively diagnosed until after death. Thus no one can be said to have it "officially" and certainly no doctor's diagnosis could be made for Shodan's benefit.

In general, I'd think that performing in public as well as Reagan did despite possible Alzheimer's, if that's what indeed happened, would be a badge of honor and not a slur on the man. Overcoming adversity and keeping it together is admirable. It's not like Democrats (in this day and age, anyway) insist that Franklin Delano Roosevelt could walk.

[PoorYorick]

Come on, that's Tom-Hanks-Da-Vinci-Code hair. You could get away with that in a formal setting.
They had a shot of him during a Dallas Cowboys game sometime in the '60's, and to my teen eyes, his stringy shoulder-length hair looked a bit creepy and sad, kind of like that caretaker guy in Harry Potter.

[ralph124c]

JFK was a very sick man, there is good evidence that he was addicted to amphetamines (supplied by Dr. Max Jacobson). In addition, Kennedy was a sex addict, and had his offic manager ( Dave Powers) regularly bring prostitutes into the White House> CITE: "THE DARK SIDE of CAMELOT" Seymour Hersch, 1997.

[ftg]

As far as Saint Ronnie goes, he was clearly mentally challenged as early as the 1960s. His gaffes and clueless looks were famous. It just got noticably worse when he was president. Whether it was just generic dementia or Alzheimer's at that point doesn't matter. The guy was practically a drooling idiot.

The video of his testimony shortly after leaving office is a must see to anyone that has any doubts of his mental incapacity while president. No one goes from sane to can't remember basic facts in a few months. Saint Ronnie has a horde of spin doctors, but if you ignore their spin and just watch that video you'll understand.

-------

LBJ drank himself to death within 4 years of leaving office. People talked quite a bit about his change in mood once he realized that Vietnam was going to be the blackhole that would destroy his legacy. It got worse after he decided not to run again and especially after the Chicago convention when he saw his party hand the election to Nixon. I think he was just continuing his "usual" heavy drinking at this time and didn't go on a strongly liquid diet until after leaving office.

Compared to Nixon's break during his last days, LBJ was not as severely depressed but was depressed for a long period.

[kunilou]

I can't remember where I read it, but I do remember seeing somewhere fairly recently that Eisenhower was "known" (in the open secret way, like JFK's women) to be a pretty mean drunk.

Eisenhower had a temper, but it was Mamie (his wife) who was rumored to be the family drunk.

[astorian]

As far as Saint Ronnie goes, he was clearly mentally challenged as early as the 1960s. His gaffes and clueless looks were famous. It just got noticably worse when he was president. Whether it was just generic dementia or Alzheimer's at that point doesn't matter. The guy was practically a drooling idiot.

The video of his testimony shortly after leaving office is a must see to anyone that has any doubts of his mental incapacity while president. No one goes from sane to can't remember basic facts in a few months. Saint Ronnie has a horde of spin doctors, but if you ignore their spin and just watch that video you'll understand.

.


You mean... the liberals got their butts kicked year in and year out for 20+ years by a senile, drooling idiot?

Boy, THAT must make you proud!!!!

[Munch]

No, he did not. Of course if you have a cite from some medical doctor who actually examined him and diagnosed this during the last parts of his Presidency, feel free to post it.

Regards,
Shodan

Jesus H. Christ. Did you miss the question mark in the post you quoted?

[Sampiro]

After he left office it was revealed that Reagan was far more seriously injured and that his inner circle was far more concerned for his life initially) than the news accounts let on. IANAD but I would not be surprised if that didn't hasten any mental infirmities that came afterwards. (Even a 30 year old in the prime of health having that same gunshot wound would take some time to recover.)

No idea how true they are, but there are several accounts that JFK was a periodic LSD user (not that there was anything illegal about that at the time).

[Oslo Ostragoth]

Good one, ShibbOleth!
:D

As for Lyndon, if anyone can recall, long hair was quite fashionable back then.

Gah. I was in my prime in the '70's. Now I feel like a senile, babbling idiot.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Reagan was pretty much in decline for like the last 6 years of his Presidency. Let's be honest. I remember those debates with Mondale -- the stammering, the long pauses, the desperate mental searching for an answer to the word, "hello." It was a bumpy ride for Reagan supporters. I was one of them at the time. We were all terrified that his obvious senility would kill him in the election. It didn't. I was one of the idiots who voted for him, knowing that his brain was gone (and it's a brain that was never better than average to begin with), but reassuring ourselves that he was surrounded by advisors who wouldn't let him push any buttons or walk in front of a bus.

[Kobal2]

Would Boris Yeltsin count ? I don't think he was deranged per se, but in his later years he certainly appeared to spend most of his waking hours rip-roaring drunk. And not the good natured, jolly yet functional, Churchill kind of drunk. More like vomit-on-the-ambassador's-wife-then-pass-out drunk.

[Shodan]

Jesus H. Christ. Did you miss the question mark in the post you quoted?
No. Did you miss the first four words of my post?

Regards,
Shodan

[Kiber]

No, he did not. Of course if you have a cite from some medical doctor who actually examined him and diagnosed this during the last parts of his Presidency, feel free to post it.

Regards,
Shodan

This is fair. Sure - the op called for conjecture, but I suggest that we instead adhere to the criteria established by Shodan and limit our discussions to only those leaders with a confirmed, verifiable medical diagnosis.

(cue crickets . . . . . . )

[Munch]

No. Did you miss the first four words of my post?

Regards,
Shodan

Oh - I TOTALLY glossed over that. I just went straight to the part where you started frothing at the mouth. Tell me - what was the purpose of that second sentence?

[zenith]

Bob Haldeman wrote that Nixon took amphetamines and confided that he wished that he didn't have to sleep at all.

[bup]

Lesley Stahl claims that though she had known Reagan for years, in his second term he sometimes seemed not to recognize her, and here's a claim that sometimes he couldn't answer basic questions: http://www.tvrage.com/person/id-59873/Lesley+Stahl

[Shodan]

Oh - I TOTALLY glossed over that. I just went straight to the part where you started frothing at the mouth. Tell me - what was the purpose of that second sentence?
Isn't Obama a Muslim?

Regards,
Shodan

[Sailboat]

Bob Haldeman wrote that Nixon took amphetamines and confided that he wished that he didn't have to sleep at all.

That's sad. Why would anyone want to spend MORE time being Richard Nixon?

[Sampiro]

Speaking of "Old Hickory's" cane, he owned at least one walking stick that was a gun. They weren't terribly uncommon at the time- pull back the knob then jam it down fast and hopefully it would fire a single ball without blowing up in your hand (they were extremely unreliable and strictly "extreme close range/last resort" weapons). I'm not sure if Jackson ever walked with it (he seems the kind who would have more likely just had a brace of pistols and a couple of knives in his belt) but it's on display with his other canes at the Hermitage.
Of course with Jackson, walking around armed wasn't evidence of paranoia as many people really did wish him dead. The would be assassin was the exception in that he was a pathetic psychotic who didn't really have anything against Jackson personally (IIRC he thought he was the rightful heir to the English throne and thus Jackson was an enemy). Most of the men who shot at or shot him did so because they weren't deluded.

[lieu]

I thought LBJ's hair, post presidency, was kinda cool.From PBS's The American Experience: The Presidents (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/presidents/36_l_johnson/filmmore/filmscript.html)

Historian Ronnie Dugger:: He was -- he had this long white hair, and it's all curled - you know, it kind of curled to the back of his hair, and he looked like a hippie. I think he chose to look like a hippie because he contained everything. He looked like he was identifying with the kids who'd been demonstrating against the war. Maybe he was trying to say to them, "Hey, I understand. If I'd have been young, I might have done the same thing."

I believe Koxinga's picture (the best) was from 1972. The only other I could find was from Life Magazine, May of '71. (http://www.minortweaks.com/archives/lyndonandlady1.bmp)

[Skald the Rhymer]

How dare you impugn the reputation of Saint Ronnie! Why, I'll have you know that he was such a good and true American that diseases which would attack us lesser humans would never dream of infecting the Greatest. President. EVAR!

Little known fact -- Ronnie, er, pardon, President Reagan -- had the beginnings of a case of athlete's foot in 1985. However, after a few stern words from Ed Meece and Lee Atwater about respecting the greatest leader the free world has ever known (or will ever) the fungus was overcome with shame and beat a hasty retreat from the President's wingtips.

So that Shodan doesn't feel lonely, this registered Democrat who worked for Obama would also like to call for a cite on the claim that President Reagan had Alzheimer's while in office.

[Guinastasia]

Regarding Wilson, I thought it was common knowledge that his stroke left him more or less incapacitated in the last months of his presidency, leaving his wife to run things more or less. Or is that still just theory?

Nope, it's a pretty well known fact. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presidency_of_Woodrow_Wilson#Incapacity)

Jesus, Shodan, why is speculating on whether or not Reagan might have been suffering the early onset of Alzheimers (which with he was eventually diagnosed), such a horrible, insulting thing? Comparable to conspiracy theories about Clinton having Vince Foster killed, or Obama being a secret Muslim?

He did seem to show moments of fatigue and mental instability during his second term. No one made a definite statement -- just that it's a possibility.



Christ, you'd think someone kicked your grandfather in the balls or something.

[Elendil's Heir]

Lincoln wrestled with depression, as did both Franklin Pierce and Calvin Coolidge after the tragic deaths of their sons. LBJ went through some very rocky times in the last two years or so of his administration.

I've read pretty extensively about JFK, and would agree that he was far too attached to the painkillers that helped him deal with his chronic back pain. He also probably would meet a contemporary definition of sex addiction. I've never read any reliable account of him ever taking LSD, though.

Nixon is probably the best example of a mentally-disturbed president. He had a serious after-hours drinking problem that once led his aides to cover for him when the British prime minister called for a chat. In the latter days of the Watergate scandal, he was widely reported to be wandering the halls of the White House, talking to portraits of his predecessors. He was a deeply paranoid man. From Wiki (although I've read it elsewhere, too):

During President Nixon's last days in the White House during the Watergate crisis, when the President's mental stability was doubted by some, [Secretary of Defense James] Schlesinger is thought to have instructed the Joint Chiefs of Staff to check with him before carrying out any of Nixon's orders regarding nuclear weapons. He also drew up contingency plans for an emergency deployment of the 82nd Airborne to Washington D.C. in the event of Nixon refusing to step down if impeached....

Two more pics of LBJ's long post-White House hair (I'm surprised I couldn't find more online; I know I've seen them in books):

http://www.forttumbleweed.net/KubiakandLBJ.jpg
http://www.utexas.edu/lbj/archive/anniversary/graphics/lbj_class.jpg

[Munch]

Isn't Obama a Muslim?

No, I don't believe he is. There's been a lot of discussion on the internet (in fact, I'm sure you've participated in a few threads here), but there's really no way to confirm or refute whether that's a fact or not. Obama's made it clear himself that's he's a Christian and not a Muslim, but that's not always convincing to a lot of people.

See? That wasn't hard, and I didn't swallow my own tongue doing so. It's called being courteous, and realizing that not all questions on topics you disagree with need to be met with spittle and frothing.

[ftg]

Lesley Stahl claims that though she had known Reagan for years, in his second term he sometimes seemed not to recognize her, ...

Shades of another Reagan gaffe:

"My name is Ronald Reagan. What's yours?"
"I'm your son, Mike."
"Oh, I didn't recognize you."

This is from 1964. They guy had long term problems.

[Rilchiam]

I thought that was supposed to illustrate that he didn't care as much for his adopted son as he did for his bio children. But perhaps not.

[Sampiro]

There were flashbacks to 1984 in 2004. I was a few weeks too young to vote in that election and not really terribly well versed in politics anyway at 17, but many of the adults I knew who were and even who were Democrats generally had the KERRY '04 dilemma of "I don't like Reagan, but... the other guy is Mondale". The memories of the (gasp!) $1.00+ per gallon gasoline and emasculating non-handling of the Iranian hostages and some of his gaffes did not endear Carter (under whom Mondale was VP ) even to his fellow Deep South Democrats (who were already a minority) and Mondale said nothing that inspired confidence. Plus, [I]in general the economy was going well (my family was in the toilet but we were the exception). Interest rates had come down to 11.25% for prime (young people can't believe that my father had excellent credit yet the mortgage on our house was 17.5%), so those with money in the bank were still getting good returns on savings (not what they had been) but those looking to buy were in a manageable area as well, so--- things could have been a whole lot worse.
While I can't imagine what would have given Mondale the victory (I can't remember which comedian said at the time "The guy only carried 3 more states than I did and I didn't run") it would be an interesting conjecture of what 4 Mondali years would have been.

[Guinastasia]

Recall too that Reagan used to make a LOT of claims that weren't true -- for example, claiming he had been in Europe, filming the concentration camps. (He wasn't, during WWII, he was in Hollywood, making training films)

And Iran-Contra -- IF, as he claimed, he didn't know anything about, it's fucking frightening how uninvolved he was that his staff could get away with something of that magnitude right under his nose. IF he WAS involved, then he should have been impeached.

[Sampiro]

And Iran-Contra -- IF, as he claimed, he didn't know anything about, it's fucking frightening how uninvolved he was that his staff could get away with something of that magnitude right under his nose. IF he WAS involved, then he should have been impeached.

In interest of bipartisanship I'll point to an example of Democratic pundits simultaneously adhering to two or more mutually exclusive allegations (e.g. the way some Republicans believe Obama is a Muslim who was under the thumb of Christian minister Jeremiah Wright). Some of the same anti-Reagan pundits and talking heads who had claimed for years that he was a scatterbrained old fool were, in the early 90s, calling for him to be questioned or even indicted over Iran-Contra and alleged improprieties in the deregulation of the S&Ls (which led to the bailouts back in them days when a quarter trillion still seemed like a heap of money to us). When the Reagan family announced that he had signs of Alzheimers related dementia (1994), there was a chorus of "yeah, right, sure he does" by some of the same figures who were claiming this was an obvious dodge, though earlier they themselves had claimed he was senile.

Personally I think he was nearly a complete figurehead for his entire second term and probably most of his first and couldn't have answered the first question about most of the more complicated aspects of Iran-Contra or the S&L deregs if he hadn't been senile. One of the most damning things about him is that Edmund Morris, the Pulitzer winning biographer of Teddy Roosevelt who was Reagan's official biographer, referred to him as "a man of encyclopedic ignorance" on political and financial matters, and actually wrote a novel (http://www.amazon.com/Dutch-Memoir-Ronald-Edmund-Morris/dp/0394555082) rather than a biography because

He was truly one of the strangest men who’s ever lived,... Nobody around him understood him. I, every person I interviewed, almost without exception, eventually would say, 'You know, I could never really figure him out.

In defending his father Ron Jr. (among the more pathetic Presi-spawn imo) actually said "It's true my dad is intellectually lazy, but...". This is a phrase I hope to never again hear reference an American president, though compared to Dubya old 'Dutch' was probably damned near Jefferson, or at least Garfield. (One of three things I will concede about Bush Sr., along with the facts he is a bonafide WW2 hero and to my knowledge has never kicked a homeless person, is that he did seem intelligent and "presidential" in interviews, however repulsive some of his stances.)

[Guinastasia]

Well, yeah, I don't think Reagan was in charge all that much -- he definitely seemed to delegate authority, to an alarming rate. (However, when I pointed out that he was a figurehead before, I got my ass creamed)

Most of those who worked with him -- even those who were his political opponents though -- felt that he was a hell of a nice guy. Just, well, an airhead.

(Tip O'Neill and him, for all that they were bitter opponents in politics, were always "after five friends", as Reagan would put it. They never seemed to make it personal)

[Oslo Ostragoth]

I've been looking at LBJ pictures. This (http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/images/2008/07/10/lbj_2.jpg) may be what I was thinking of when I posted that I thought his post-presidency long hair was cool.

[Guinastasia]

I've been looking at LBJ pictures. This (http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/images/2008/07/10/lbj_2.jpg) may be what I was thinking of when I posted that I thought his post-presidency long hair was cool.

Well, it beats looking at his gall bladder scar.

[NicePete]

My OP was intended merely as a comment on Shodan's knee-jerk defensiveness.

I have no idea whether or no Reagan had Alzheimer's at any time. Nor am I much interested in the issue, other than as a historical curiosity. Impaired or not, the country survived.

Shodan, why does it matter so much to you? Even if it was true would it lessen your opinion of the man? He's not being accused of anything -- we are only considering the possibility that he was affected by an impartial disease. I know that if he did have Alzheimer's, much as I detest his politics and governance, I would pity him and his family.

[Koxinga]

Well, yeah, I don't think Reagan was in charge all that much -- he definitely seemed to delegate authority, to an alarming rate. (However, when I pointed out that he was a figurehead before, I got my ass creamed)



I remember Tip O'Neil once said something like Reagan might not go down as a great president, but he would have made a great king.

[Koxinga]

Googling around for a cite on the above, I found myself (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=462934) in a previous discussion on the exact same topic.

[Rilchiam]

Recall too that Reagan used to make a LOT of claims that weren't true -- for example, claiming he had been in Europe, filming the concentration camps. (He wasn't, during WWII, he was in Hollywood, making training films)


I liked the one where he said there was no one, or very few, left in Germany who had been active members of the Nazi Party. Duh -- if we still had WWII vets, so would they!

[Koxinga]

I liked the one where he said there was no one, or very few, left in Germany who had been active members of the Nazi Party. Duh -- if we still had WWII vets, so would they!

A Wehrmacht veteran is not the same as a Nazi. (ETA: in the vast majority of cases, I believe. Even if there was some kind of mandated oath and nominal party membership--which I don't believe there was--that doesn't make Wehrmacht soldiers into active Nazis any more than Constantine's Roman legions were active Christians.)

[Rilchiam]

Okay, forget the veteran bit then. Point is, he made it sound as if they'd all died of old age by the '80s. But I had relatives still thriving who had served in WWII, so how much older could Party members have been? And if you include the Hitler Youth, that's even more who were "alive and participating in any way," as Ronnie put it. (Heck, our current Pope was a Hitler Youth.)

[madmonk28]

I think this quote on Iran Contra demonstrates Reagan had lost touch with reality:

"A few months ago, I told the American people I did not trade arms for hostages. My heart and my best intentions still tell me that's true, but the facts and evidence tell me it is not."
– Ronald Reagan, admitting the Iran-Contra Affair, March 1987.

[Kiber]

OK - I'm pretty sure we won't get an actual cite for when Reagan might have first shown signs of Alzheimers. However, we can put together a very rough time frame. From here (http://www.nytimes.com/1994/11/08/science/doctor-s-world-reagan-and-alzheimer-s-following-path-his-mother-traveled.html?pagewanted=1), we see that he was diagnosed almost 6 years after leaving office. Now, there is no way of knowing how long before that he may have shown symptoms. However, from here (http://news.healingwell.com/index.php?p=news1&id=531624), we can see that the typical length of time between onset of symptoms and diagnosis is around 2 years. So, while certainly not definitive, it appears that he may not have shown signs of Alzheimers until as many as 4 years after he left office.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Except we SAW the signs all during his second term.

[Shodan]

Gee, challenging an unsourced allegation on the SDMB. I wonder if that has ever happened before?

Maybe we could come up with a catch phrase for it. Blight? Might? Height?

:shrugs:

Keep repeating it. Eventually, you won't need evidence.

Regards,
Shodan

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Keep denying it. The truth was obvious. I don't see why you think it's such an insult anyway. It's not like it was any kind of moral failure on his part.

[Kiber]

Except we SAW the signs all during his second term.

I certainly agree we SAW signs of something. I just don't know what that was. Could have been alzheimers - could have been something else. In fact, Reagan himself was worried about sinility, since it ran in the family (http://www.nytimes.com/1994/11/08/science/doctor-s-world-reagan-and-alzheimer-s-following-path-his-mother-traveled.html):

Before Ronald Reagan was elected President in 1980, he said publicly he wanted to be watched for senility, in part because his mother, Nellie, had been senile for several years before her death at the age of 80.

Now I think it's impressive that anyone can handle that job at the age Reagan did. But I also think we saw some signs of something - sinility, alzheimers, whatever.

And add me to the list of people wondering why it's apostasy to even hint that Saint Ronnie may have had a random illness.

[Polycarp]

Didn't Ronald Reagan have mild symptoms of Alzheimer's in the last part of his presidency?

According to a strong Democratic activist and amateur fiction writier of my acquaintance, who was intrigued by and greatly respected Reagan the man, while opposed to many of his policies (and used him as a background character in his fiction), this was not the case. His Alzheimer's was barely detectable during his time in office, and only became sweriously symptomatic well after he left office.

[Captain Carrot]

That doesn't really contradict what Dragwyr said.

[bup]

I certainly agree we SAW signs of something. I just don't know what that was. Could have been alzheimers - could have been something else. In fact, Reagan himself was worried about sinility, since it ran in the family (http://www.nytimes.com/1994/11/08/science/doctor-s-world-reagan-and-alzheimer-s-following-path-his-mother-traveled.html)Isn't senility just an old-fashioned euphemism for Alzheimer's?

At any rate, the OP acknowledges that most mental defects of presidents wouldn't be made official, so what we're left with is speculation. I speculate Reagan was in early-stage Alzheimer's by 1986.

[Captain Carrot]

Isn't senility just an old-fashioned euphemism for Alzheimer's?No, senility is another word for dementia, of which Alzheimer's is one type.

At any rate, the OP acknowledges that most mental defects of presidents wouldn't be made official, so what we're left with is speculation. I speculate Reagan was in early-stage Alzheimer's by 1986.Cue Shodan freaking out.

[Guinastasia]

I think this quote on Iran Contra demonstrates Reagan had lost touch with reality:

"A few months ago, I told the American people I did not trade arms for hostages. My heart and my best intentions still tell me that's true, but the facts and evidence tell me it is not."
– Ronald Reagan, admitting the Iran-Contra Affair, March 1987.

The fact that he claimed to have forgotten something of that magnitude it is quite frightening.

Shodan -- no one said the guy was stupid. We're saying he might have been sick. THAT is not an insult, and to assume that it is, WOULD be an insult to those who DO suffer from dementia and Alzheimers.

:dubious:

[Skald the Rhymer]

I think this quote on Iran Contra demonstrates Reagan had lost touch with reality:

"A few months ago, I told the American people I did not trade arms for hostages. My heart and my best intentions still tell me that's true, but the facts and evidence tell me it is not."
– Ronald Reagan, admitting the Iran-Contra Affair, March 1987.
The fact that he claimed to have forgotten something of that magnitude it is quite frightening.


There's another way to take that quote, you realize. Not to get all Clintonesque, but it depends on the meanings of the words I and my. It's conceivable that Mr. Reagan meant, "I would not have chosen to trade arms for hostages, but persons who work for me did so using my authority but without my knowledge, and I am taking responsibility for their actions rather than hanging them out to dry."

[ElvisL1ves]

If he hadn't been such a habitual indulger of Truthiness, that interpretation might be reasonable. But there it is, in its purest form.

[Yllaria]

According to a strong Democratic activist and amateur fiction writier of my acquaintance, who was intrigued by and greatly respected Reagan the man, while opposed to many of his policies (and used him as a background character in his fiction), this was not the case. His Alzheimer's was barely detectable during his time in office, and only became sweriously symptomatic well after he left office.

Has he been published? Because I'd be interested in reading that.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

There's another way to take that quote, you realize. Not to get all Clintonesque, but it depends on the meanings of the words I and my. It's conceivable that Mr. Reagan meant, "I would not have chosen to trade arms for hostages, but persons who work for me did so using my authority but without my knowledge, and I am taking responsibility for their actions rather than hanging them out to dry."
From what I remember, he literally did say that he'd forgotten he'd given the approval. Amazingly enough, I think people generally believed him. I think I believed him. It seemed perfectly plausible.

[Skald the Rhymer]

From what I remember, he literally did say that he'd forgotten he'd given the approval. Amazingly enough, I think people generally believed him. I think I believed him. It seemed perfectly plausible.

Note that I'm not saying that is what President Reagan meant--only that there are alternate interpretations. I don't recall the speech.

[McDeath_the_Mad]

Well I had a A/V contractor come to our office to configure our board room. He said that he did a lot of work for Jimmy Pattison (kind of a British Columbian Donald Trump, but has never declared bankruptcy).

Jimmy ownes a lot of businesses, car dealerships, grocery chains, fish packing company etc.

Every year he would bring in a high profile speaker, and have all his VP's and directors attend.

Well I guess he brought Regan in right after he left office (withing 2-3 months). And the contractor said it was scary hearing this guy speak, knowing that just a few weeks earlier he had access to a suitcase that could end humanity in a few minutes!

He was ranting and raving about how Russia should be stopped, getting confused, having flash-backs etc.

He said the whole crowd had confused looks on their faces and it was a very uncomfortable experience for all.

MtM

[Koxinga]

He was ranting and raving about how Russia should be stopped, getting confused, having flash-backs etc.

He said the whole crowd had confused looks on their faces and it was a very uncomfortable experience for all.


Now this I find very hard to believe. It fits into the crazed warmonger image that his detractors liked to paint at the time, but nothing like the attitudes I believe he's generally acknowledged to have held. (He was disgusted at the prospect of nuclear war, and shocked to learn in the wake of Able Archer 83 at how much the Soviets genuinely feared the US, making him determined to get a Soviet leader "in the room" and connect with him on a human level.)

And "ranting and raving" was never his style, unless he had some form of dementia that effected a complete change in personality in a addition to memory loss.

[Elendil's Heir]

Now this I find very hard to believe. It fits into the crazed warmonger image that his detractors liked to paint at the time, but nothing like the attitudes I believe he's generally acknowledged to have held. (He was disgusted at the prospect of nuclear war, and shocked to learn in the wake of Able Archer 83 at how much the Soviets genuinely feared the US, making him determined to get a Soviet leader "in the room" and connect with him on a human level.)

And "ranting and raving" was never his style, unless he had some form of dementia that effected a complete change in personality in a addition to memory loss.

Seconded. By the time he left office Reagan had so bonded to Gorbachev and was so determined to maintain peace that some of his own conservative advisors (Pat Buchanan in particular) were deeply uneasy.

[Guinastasia]

Has he been published? Because I'd be interested in reading that.

Yes, it's called Dutch, if I'm not mistaken.

Skald, the guy called a bunch of thugs and murders "The moral equals to our Founding Fathers" (The contras.) Please.

[Sampiro]

Something I noticed in my own elderly relatives and later read some scholarly articles about may apply to Reagan (I say may because I've no idea).

Okay, imagine the descent into senile dementia and or Alzheimers (whether they're the same thing depends on who you're reading) as a scale from 1 to 10.

Suppose on this scale

1 is the beginning phase. Grandpa is getting really forgetful; he knows his name and address, but he'll completely forget to take his medicine or that he was supposed to go to the doctor today type stuff, and far more frequently than can be explained by simple age related absentmindedness.

5 is the midway point. Grandpa has good days and bad days. On his good days he recognizes most people and has most of his memories (especially of his youth or things that happened years ago- his short term memory may be shot). On his bad days he sometimes can't recognize his wife or children and has no idea what year or day it is. (At point 5 he's incapable of independent living but may be capable of assisted living.)


8 is mostly bad days with occasional moments of lucidity or something like where he recognizes people, but these are now the minority.

10 is the stage where he's essentially a vegetable who may be able to see or respond to things but has absolutely no recollection of anyone or anything from his old life and must be assisted with all bodily functions.


Okay, most people who go through these stages don't experience Point 1 for a while then gradually fade into Point 2 then point 3 then point 4, etc.. Rather than a gradual deterioration it's not at all uncommon for Grandpa to go straight from Point 1 to Point 4, then from Point 4 to Point 6, then from Point 6 to Point 8, then to 9 then to 10. The gradual collapse is usually in the latter part of the descent.

The reason is human adaptability. All of us if we lost the use of our right eye would begin to compensate fairly quickly: much wider head turns when backing out of a parking lot would become second nature almost immediately, or instinctively holding a paper you're reading with your left hand only; likewise if we go for a year with our arm in a cast by the end of that time we'll know how to tie our shoes/shave/bathe/use a camera/type/etc. with one hand.
Elderly people experiencing the memory loss and dementia of senility/Alzheimers are no different. They'll figure out coping mechanisms that while they may not mitigate the decline at all they can at least help them keep up appearances. Some of it is by reciting information several times, or speaking the obvious or answering questions that haven't been asked.* The behavior may seem a little peculiar perhaps but nothing more than just "he's a bit eccentric".
However, as the mind wears down they can't keep up. Essentially, they've really been at about a 3 but they've been able to give the appearance of being about a 1, but when their mentalia deteriorates one day they wake up and they're unable to create that illusion of a 1 anymore, and in fact they're now a 4. It seems to happen overnight but in fact it was more prolonged. Then they start to maintain the appearance of a 4 when in fact they're a 5 and so on. Then after a while their ability to fake being better goes away and so they decline in appearance at the same rate as they are declining in reality. (I hope this makes sense.)

Anyway, it could (and I'm not declaring it one way or the other) have been this way with Reagan. It's possible, especially with his background as an actor and as a politician (two professions where even if you have a low grade fever and just learned your daughter's having an affair with a married man and your campaign manager is being tailed by feds you still have to seem cheerful and in charge when in public) that he was able to keep up the appearance of a man who was vibrant and in charge of his faculties when in fact he was just barely hanging on by his fingertips, and then one day his fingertips slipped (which could have been around 1994 when he made his last public appearance [Tricky Dick's funeral] and his family made the announcement he had Alzheimers).




*Something I've noticed some older people whose minds are beginning to slip is playing "details and connections"; when they tell a story for example there will be FAR more detail than there used to be. Instead of "your grandma and I went to Niagara Falls for our second honeymoon" it'll be "your grandma and I went to Niagara Fals for our second honeymoon... that was in 1973... June... we stayed at the Honeyfield Lodge, where they had all you can eat Maine lobster for $12.95, and we watched Tony Bennett on The Tonight Show while we were there... there was a blue quilt on the bed, and it was the first time I ever tried an Old Fashioned- bartender's name was Ernie, he looked like Joe Garagiola" type stuff. I think they know you're not interested in most of this, but by repeating these things it helps [my theory only I should specify] cement them into their memory, something like a fixative, and by making these connections it helps them stand on firmer ground as other memories fade and disappear altogether.