SDMB Diplomacy Commentary

[CatInASuit]

This thread is for commentary on the latest SDMB Diplomacy (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=523397) game discussing the moves and strategy of the players.

[CatInASuit]

And the game is afoot. I don't think it will be too long before we see those players with experience coming to the fore against those who are newer.

Does anyone know which of the players has previous experience playing and which are relatively new to the game?

[Tristan]

Omniscient, Malacandra, John DiFool, and treis have all played in numerous SD Dip games. I have played in, I think, 2, and got my keister handed to me.

That, and 2 IRL games are the extent of my Dip Experience.

I cannot speak for any of the others.

[Malacandra]

If by "numerous" you mean "one, maybe two" then yes - I only remember one. But I used to play a fair bit FTF back in the 1970s and 80s. Open press will make a difference, of course.

[Tristan]

My apologies. I could have sworn you were in both of the games I played.

[Malacandra]

My apologies. I could have sworn you were in both of the games I played.

You may be right - I have vague memories of being stitched up as England, and rather clearer ones of something similar as Italy; I think that's the limit here though. (One other online game in recent years, but not on the Dope.)

[John DiFool]

I've never played, here; commented on some yes.

[grimpixie]

Open press will make a difference, of course.A *huge* difference - I can't imagine how one would even start diploming (sp?) without the ability to say the same thing to two different people...

[CatInASuit]

Well they are doing a good job so far at being diplomatic.

I think 1901 is going to be fairly calm, with a bit of jockeying for position, but I think 1902 when countries start butting heads after their first build is where the real diplomacy is going to start.

Open press is not going to be stabbing someone in the back, as much as stabbing someone in the front while everyone else looks on approvingly.

It also makes for good reading.

[treis]

Omniscient, Malacandra, John DiFool, and treis have all played in numerous SD Dip games. I have played in, I think, 2, and got my keister handed to me.

That, and 2 IRL games are the extent of my Dip Experience.

I cannot speak for any of the others.

I've only played in the three SDMB games.

First one was a less than stellar showing as Turkey.

Got tripled by France, Germany, and Russia in my second one. I almost saved that with a brilliant (if I may say so) tactical stab against Germany. I chickened out at the last second, but the GM accidentally posted my first set of moves. Thus I tipped my hand to Germany but didn't get the benefit of the stab.

Third game I did pretty well as Austria but ended up losing due to a boneheaded Germany.

This should be interesting I guess. Open press heavily advantages the countries with tactical strength, i.e. Turkey and England. The biggest problem when playing those countries is that you don't know if Austria/Russia and France/Germany have united against you. If you do know they have allied and you know their allies moves just as well as they do then it is going to be much easier to defend. I think the winner is going to be whomever guesses right in tactics, which isn't really the spirit of Diplomacy.

[garygnu]

Russia doesn't seem to be worried about the apparent cooperation between France and England.

[Omniscient]

Russia doesn't seem to be worried about the apparent cooperation between France and England.

Something I've noticed as well....

[Omniscient]

Should I be concerned by the deafening silence in the Dip thread?

[wevets]

No, don't worry about it. :)

I decided that it might be best to keep my peace until I saw how the first season's moves turned out.

It's entirely possible, perhaps even likely, that others have chosen to do the same. Open press is new to me, so actions will probably speak a great deal louder than words for divining the intentions of the other powers.

[John DiFool]

In closed press there would a lot more to say. I decided to throw out some real negotiation anyway (because I thought keeping my mouth shut over the issue I raised might be more dangerous than bringing it up), but yeah things will pick up after the spring moves...

[wevets]

As it turns out, I have plenty of other things besides French-English cooperation to worry about.

Wow, Malacandra, an all-out attack on Russia in 1901? You've got guts, I have to give you that.

[Rack-a-Bones]

Can someone explain what the heck this is all about? Or link to an explanation thread.

[John DiFool]

Here ya go (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomacy_(game)).

[CatInASuit]

Here is a good read (http://www.diplom.org/~diparch/god.htm)for understanding Diplomacy.

[garygnu]

Thoughts...

Russia: Two front wars don't work. I foresee insurmountable problems in your future.

England: Exactly the opening I expected, but it was spoiled in a serious way by France and Russia. You'd better hope France isn't blowing contrition smoke and Russia collapses from behind.

France: Sealion? Seriously? Hell, it might work. Maybe.

Germany: The French army in Burgundy is a concern, but the pressure on England should aide in your strong beginning.

Italy: You lost your chance at a Lepanto with the move to TUS. Your best bet is to screw around like a crazy fox.

Austria: I don't think the opening moves could have gone better for you.

Turkey: I bow to your balls of nickel-plated steel.

[garygnu]

Ah, now we see the bitter sniping and accusations.

[wevets]

... and soon I'm sure we'll see the violence inherent in the system.

[garygnu]

Can we taunt them twice? Or do we have to wait until the French are in England?

[Malacandra]

Help! Help! I'm being oppressed!

[CatInASuit]

This game is beginning to heat up nicely.

Not long until Autumn falls. :)

[Malacandra]

Yeah, Diplomacy is like bridge - a bit boring without the arguing. :D

[CatInASuit]

Well, I hope I got that right.

Nice to see a full set of orders from everyone as well.

[Omniscient]

Nope. You didn't. You need to be using a better Judge if that's what it told you to do

[garygnu]

[Boos from the audience]

[CatInASuit]

:(

[Kobal2]

Open press will make a difference, of course.

Understatement or the year :p. Even more so when the players don't know each other or haven't Diplo'd each other before (which I assume).

[Omniscient]

Understatement or the year :p. Even more so when the players don't know each other or haven't Diplo'd each other before (which I assume).

The number of players who seem to be taking the "don't say anything" approach is amazing to me. Open press heavily favors strong, open alliances.

[Malacandra]

What went wrong, Cat? Don't take it too much to heart - there are plenty of players here who will pick up on minor misadventures like that North Sea thing, so it won't spoil the game. (We used to think, back when I was at school, that if a piece was ordered to move then it couldn't remain in the space it came from if something else moved in; but we were wrong - if it's "bounced" it's treated as if it Held, with no support, in the space it was trying to leave.)

[garygnu]

The number of players who seem to be taking the "don't say anything" approach is amazing to me. Open press heavily favors strong, open alliances.
The value of such alliances is often lost on inexperienced players, as well as players who expect to be stabbed on every turn if they trust anyone else.

I admit I expected more of the, "Hi everyone! I am allied with [other country]. If he betrays me, you all will know of his duplicity," shout-it-from-the-rooftops type stuff, rather than the current hedging of bets and ambiguous "promises."

- - -

Russia seems rather full of bluster for someone so outmaneuvered and outwitted.

Italy is TYR doesn't seem to me to be unexpected. How else does an Italian have fun in the game?

[Malacandra]

Can I request either a substitute or a week's pause? I'm off to the Lake District this weekend and have learned I will not have internet access until I get back (I know, and in 2009 already. Sorry, I thought it was like the place I went to at Easter where at least I could go to the site office). I will get builds and, if possible, Spring '02 orders in before I go, but it would help to brief a stand-in if I need one.

[Omniscient]

Can I request either a substitute or a week's pause? I'm off to the Lake District this weekend and have learned I will not have internet access until I get back (I know, and in 2009 already. Sorry, I thought it was like the place I went to at Easter where at least I could go to the site office). I will get builds and, if possible, Spring '02 orders in before I go, but it would help to brief a stand-in if I need one.

How long and what days will you be gone? I wouldn't oppose a sabbatical for 3 or 4 days following a Friday/Saturday S02.

[Malacandra]

I'll be gone until the following weekend. May be back late Saturday.

[Omniscient]

Saturday to Saturday?

[CatInASuit]

I have no problems with someone subbing in for you while you are away to keep the game going at it's current rate.

Failing that, it will be a weeks extra scheming for all concerned. Who knows, you may even find a net connection somewhere in the wilds.

Builds and early orders for Spring '02 would be welcome.

[wevets]

My apologies to all in advance, but I will be facing a similar problem - I have a vacation in the San Juan Islands scheduled for July 24th to August 2nd - I might have internet access for a day or two on either end, but I'm certain I won't for the bulk of that week.

I wouldn't ask for a pause for that much time - that would be unreasonable. Do you think I could find a sub, though?

[garygnu]

It looks like Austria has gone from a good position to a very bad position because of poor diplomacy.

[treis]

That's one way to put it.

[Kobal2]

Turkey: I bow to your balls of nickel-plated steel.

Seconded. Screwing Russia over, then making her an ally against Austria ? The idiom "cheap fiddle" comes to mind :p

[CatInASuit]

Builds done, let's see how people react.

[Omniscient]

It looks like Austria has gone from a good position to a very bad position because of poor diplomacy.

The tone of the proposal was very heavy handed, this is true, but our Russian seems to have a death wish.

[Malacandra]

The tone of the proposal was very heavy handed, this is true, but our Russian seems to have a death wish.

I disagree - I think his willingness to overlook past wrongs is statesmanlike (well, I would say that, wouldn't I?) and assuming that the Anglo-French are on the up-and-up, he gains precious time to grow; otherwise he could be mired in a long struggle with me and still in a bad way when the Westerners decided to invade.

@CatInASuit - As of about now my enforced absence begins - I may have time to check in later and see if there is anything requiring my attention before I leave, but I can't guarantee it. Orders for Spring are in.

[CatInASuit]

Thanks Malacandra,

If anyone would like to sub in for a week now or sub in for wevets later on, please let me know.

The only good thing about open press is that a sub can see what is going on without having to read a large backlog of emails.

[CatInASuit]

@CatInASuit - As of about now my enforced absence begins - I may have time to check in later and see if there is anything requiring my attention before I leave, but I can't guarantee it. Orders for Spring are in.

Of course, if you want to be really clever, you could always submit Autumn 1902 moves well in advance just in case there is no sub and the phase ends without you. ;)

[Malacandra]

Of course, if you want to be really clever, you could always submit Autumn 1902 moves well in advance just in case there is no sub and the phase ends without you. ;)

I'm clever, but not prescient... the phase won't end without me unless the GM decides it should, now will it?

[wevets]

The idiom "cheap fiddle" comes to mind :p

I'll have you know that I am made only of the finest balsa! ;)

[CatInASuit]

As it looks like we don't have a temporary sub for Malacandra, I think Autumn '02 is going to be a long one.

[John DiFool]

Odd-I thought we had like 3 extras, including some which have chimed in in this thread.

[CatInASuit]

Maybe they are waiting for the right diplomatic time to step in. :)

[CatInASuit]

Well, that was an interesting set of moves.

[grimpixie]

Boots are on - ready to "steppe" into action

;)

[CatInASuit]

Boots are on - ready to "steppe" into action

;)

Thanks for subbing in for wevets. :)

[garygnu]

Nitpick: Portugal's Supply Center Dot shouldn't really be changed to France's light blue until Winter.

[CatInASuit]

Nitpick: Portugal's Supply Center Dot shouldn't really be changed to France's light blue until Winter.

Double Nitpick: It goes ditto for Germany in Holland as well. ;)

[CatInASuit]

Well that was an interesting set of moves.

Annoyed with Italy, but we shall see what happens next.

Very nearly put in "A Con to Bul" causing havoc in the Balkans instead of the support order.

[garygnu]

I'm having trouble figuring out who's screwing whom. Can I get a box score or something?

[CatInASuit]

I'm having trouble figuring out who's screwing whom. Can I get a box score or something?

Ok Italy screwed himself, which also resulted in him screwing a surprised Austria. But that's not as bad as Turkey who got screwed by Russia who also participated in England screwing himself while Germany and France screwed each other to a standstill.

I think that covers it.

[garygnu]

France says he's moving into PIE, which seems logical to me considering his position. It doesn't really do much, but it feels better moving a useless piece than letting it sit there. What really needs to happen is for that stupid fleet in BEL to get the hell out of the way. If French aggression towards Germany is done, who else can he possibly attack?

England is in a stalemate position with little to gain or lose. Wow, that's a shocker. I might try something really bold and stupid, just to make things less boring. Perhaps abandoning a weak France for a strong Germany is a good bargain.

Germany holds many cards, IMHO. If an Anglo-German agreement can be reached, am English army can be in BEL on the next turn, but it would be better to wait til fall. This army would then be part of a German intrusion into France. Thinking out loud, am I.
Perhaps a joint assault on Russia up north would be prudent if Juggernaut is starting to roll.

Austria doesn't believe France-into-PIE is a defensive move. I can't tell how things are with Italy, but any bickering makes the Jug-heads more powerful. I suggest VEN-PIE with Italian support in the spring, then allowing Italy into VEN in the fall.

Italy needs to get his orders in on time. That fleet in ADR is doing jack while it could be overpowering a single Mediterranean Turkish boat. I really don't see how you survive, let alone gain anything, by aligning with Turkey.

Turkey, don't run with scissors, you're liable to get an army cut off.

Russia is schizophrenic (which is a mental illness dontchaknow). Juggernaut getting up to speed and then that? Keep that up and you won't get to #2 on your to-do list (Go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line).

[CatInASuit]

Well, with all that it looks like alliances are being broken and remade in double quick time.

[wevets]

Wow. That's certainly not what I expected to see when I left.

Russia's in serious trouble long-term from England, Germany, Austria, and Turkey. It looks like some quick diplomacy is called for to get one or more of those powers to switch sides.

That's a really interesting French-German/Italian-Austrian altercation underway, too. All because of abandoning the assault on Germany?

[garygnu]

Franco-Russian alliances ALWAYS work.

[CatInASuit]

Well despite all the last day troubles, I have a full set of orders in from everyone. I was beginning to think I would have to extend the deadline again

[Tristan]

Sorry for the delay... I guess I haven't figured out the whole GMT thing.

My poor aching Gallic butthole.....

[garygnu]

You mean Austria Tri-Ven, not Ven-Tri, right?

[garygnu]

A crazy-cunning Italy would have convoyed from Venice to Tripoli via the fleet in the Adriatic.

Did Turkey self-bounce in ALB on purpose as part of an agreement with Austria?? I missed that.

Good thing Germany's poorly-entered support order in Holland ended up being a moot point.

Is Russia seriously attacking the heart of Germany with the situation in both the north and south the way it is?

[Omniscient]

Good thing Germany's poorly-entered support order in Holland ended up being a moot point.

Wasn't poorly entered. England decided to get creative. He's lucky France didn't bounce him there or else we'd have been well fucked.

Is Russia seriously attacking the heart of Germany with the situation in both the north and south the way it is?

Curious choice, no? I'm not sure I even have to defend it, I could just wait until all his units get disbanded.

[Malacandra]

A crazy-cunning Italy would have convoyed from Venice to Tripoli via the fleet in the Adriatic.

Did Turkey self-bounce in ALB on purpose as part of an agreement with Austria?? I missed that.

Serbia, and yes it was - he wanted the centre covered, and couldn't spare a unit for it. Nicking it would have been no real benefit for me, I need an ally more than I need a single centre. :)

[John DiFool]

Cat, I have a request to throw out there for general digestion-I know it was my idea for open press-I thought we'd see a lot of lively banter back and forth, and letting the other players and lurkers see the various machinations all put forth out in the open would make for fascinating reading. But the fact is that open press carries with it a lot of potential negatives of various sorts, many of which we are now seeing played out in this game. I hence request a vote, unanimous or bust (7-0 ayes or no change), on whether we should switch it to regular press. A simple majority vote would understandably not suffice IMHO. You are the GM and it's your choice to allow said vote or not of course.

[CatInASuit]

In some ways, it is a shame as I am enjoying the open press game, other watchers may agree or disagree. I have no problem with a vote but you are quite correct in that it would require everyone to agree.

[Omniscient]

I vote no. The game is still very young. The open press experiment will still be interesting to experience as it applies to the mid game and end game.

[wevets]

I'm really enjoying watching/reading it.

I know it must be very difficult for the players (it was difficult for me when I was in the game.)

:)

[History Geek]

I vote no as well, though I am soon to depart this world.

[CatInASuit]

This could be a quiet turn.

If I get all the moves in early and everyone agrees, I can always process the game sooner rather than at the deadline.

[garygnu]

I'm totally loving the clusterfuck that is the Italian peninsula right now.

Germany seems in a bad spot.

[garygnu]

Get on with it!

[CatInASuit]

Yeah I know and the sooner I get the moves the better.

[John DiFool]

Will you process said moves as soon as you get them, or wait until tomorrow 2000 hours?

[CatInASuit]

As everyone has sent in a set of moves, I will process them this evening when I get home. I don't think I will wait for the end of the deadline.

[garygnu]

How can Russia NOT retreat to Finland?

How could France volunteer to be outflanked?

Can Germany count on England?

Is everyone ignoring the fast-growing Turk?

Does Austria have anywhere to go?

Can England sustain an assault on Russia?

[treis]

Does Austria have anywhere to go?


Go? Why would I go anywhere? Have you seen Czech chicks? Yamma hamma!

[CatInASuit]

I think this game has split into two major alliances and its time to see which one gains the best position before they collide.

[CatInASuit]

So with Italy gone, who is going to be next France or Russia?

[grimpixie]

Me, me, me!!

[Tristan]

England seems to have taken my "from hell's heart I stab at thee!" schtick kinda personally, I think. heheh

[CatInASuit]

Does Austria have anywhere to go?
I think Austria found somewhere to go.

Straight through Russia.