Hell's Kitchen!!!!!! [Summer 2009] [Archive] - Page 2

BrandonR

09-30-2009, 04:23 PM

I don't think all the diners are friends of the producers, etc. I recall reading a blog (that I'm trying to find as I type) that outlined the process someone went through of being a guest in the dining room. Basically, I think the producers took out a local ad looking for people. The guests don't have to pay anything for their meal and are treated to free drinks at the bar. I'll keep trying to find it because I found it pretty interesting.

Here's a site backing up part of what I said, but it's not what I was looking for: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8717333/

Ferret Herder

09-30-2009, 05:22 PM

From the looks of the show, all the guests for the night arrive at once. And so all of the night's orders come in more-or-less simultaneously, which just doesn't happen at a real restaurant.

At least, that's my justification for why they're so slow.
Yeah, that's not handled well. I've gone to Frontera Grill in Chicago where they don't really take many reservations, so there's a line down the block at dinner opening. They stagger the seating so you may be waiting a half hour to an hour to be seated if you were later in the line, but at least their staff doesn't get slammed when the doors open.

Diogenes the Cynic

09-30-2009, 05:27 PM

I've read that the "customers" are really just friends and families of the crew, and wannabe actors. They're not paying for anything, they know they're there as part of the show, that they may or may not get served, and they are sometimes encouraged to show impatience or displeasure for the benefit of the cameras.

TBG

10-01-2009, 12:59 PM

Sometimes I wonder how any of these people can be a head chef anywhere.
Because there's an executive chef above them actually running the place?;);)

So, TBG's eyebrows are safe. Whew! :D

Whew indeed!

Is it just me or is this group really a lot worse than they should be at this point? Now every time one of them still undercooks a lamb or overcooks a risotto, I half expect Ramsey to blow his top and just throw them all out and end the season early with no winner. Yeah, it would leave them short a few episodes, but they way they spin things it would just be "WHAT YOU HAVE TO SEE TO BELIEVE" or "THE MOST SHOCKING MOMENT IN HELL'S KITCHEN HISTORY WE REALLY REALLY MEAN IT THIS TIME"

Dave might not be making many mistakes, but I worry his arm is just going to give out before the end. I also expected Ramsey to pick him to choose the two nominees. I wonder if maybe he had some sort of mess up that wasn't exciting enough to make the final edit.

As for the diners all showing up at once, and this not being a realistic scenario, I agree, but I also think Ramsey's probably doing that because it creates such a high pressure situation. He wants to see how these people do when they're getting slammed, not in a normal situation.

Covered_In_Bees!

10-01-2009, 01:03 PM

Is it just me or is this group really a lot worse than they should be at this point?

It's not just you, I completely agree. There is just no comradarie between any of the contestants and a lot of below-the-surface contempt. This leads to a very noticeable lack of teamwork.

Right now it seems like whoever just goes with slow and steady will last 'til the end. Dave is doing that and I'm skeptical as to how bad his arm is. The previews make it look really bad so I'm going to take the opposite view. His arm is fine. :p

Ferret Herder

10-07-2009, 06:22 AM

October 6, 4 Chefs Compete - recap:

Starts off with a vegetarian cooking challenge, 80 orders each. They struggle to come up with something, and no one has all the orders ready by the time the guests show up. Then - surprise! The guests are all little kids! Kids hate veggies, but they're all chanting "WE WANT FOOD!" and banging their silverware, even for veggies. Lots of stress to placate the little demons and get their food out. The kids rate food as yuckiest vs. yummiest, and are given gum, 'champagne popper' party favors, and all kinds of things to make a mess with.

Tennille wins, gets to go out for a makeover and high-end sushi, and gets a knife set as a present. The others have to clean up the dining room which has been ravaged by the little beasts.

In the dinner competition, Tennille bombs hard. She screws up a few orders of scallops, and unevenly cooks a bunch of stuff until Ramsay takes her in back and yells at her. After that she does well. Dave has his wrist freak out on him again, describing a nerve pain shooting up from there to his ear that causes him to lose his grip on a pan of lamb. He runs in back to hide how much pain he's in, but Ramsay tells him that he better see a medic. Dave comes out after saying he's fine, he's strong.

At the end of service, Ramsay calls them together and tells Dave he's watching him, essentially, due to his wrist. Dave claims he's fine, he can do this. Tennille gets a talking-to and also praise for her great turn-around. Then Ramsay says he's not going to prolong this by making anyone decide anything, and sends Tennille on her way, praising her talent and her ability to come back from difficulty, and saying he expects good things from her.

Ariel calls for a drink and toast to celebrate, but in the midst of that, Ramsay calls them all back down and says he's been thinking about whether he made the right decision keeping Dave. Big pause... and he says yes, he's sure. Then everyone gets to spend time with significant others who they haven't gotten to see in a while (Dave: fiancee and sister, Ariel: fiance and mom, Kevin: wife and son), followed by a 'keep your eye on the prize' talk from Ramsay.

Pretty much the result I expected from this group, really. That was a pretty crappy first challenge. Most kids have a much different palate than adults, and to pull something subject to such randomness at so late a point in the competition is unfair. I think Kevin was right that most kids don't like the taste of beets, compared to how many adults like them. Plus, the (relatively minor) whining about vegetarian food from the competitors was annoying. Cooking vegetables well and creatively is an important talent, even if you're cooking meat as the centerpiece of the meal.

flickster

10-07-2009, 06:47 AM

(In her own words) "Oh Hell No" - Tennille gets undone by the seafood and makes her exit

singular1

10-07-2009, 07:09 AM

I thought Tennille looked really good after they Whoopied her up - and she was a very gracious challenge winner. I even got a little misty-eyed when they got rid of her.

But you missed the best part of the show in the recap - Little Gordon Ramsey! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcZqwR9tbJE&feature=related) That kid is an amazing mimic. His body language and movements are absolutely perfect!

Dung Beetle

10-07-2009, 07:37 AM

I wish I could remember what Dave said about the joys of finding a perfectly good candy on the floor…it cracked us up. Laughs are going to be a lot scarcer with ol’ Tennille gone…

StGermain

10-07-2009, 07:47 AM

There's always a kid challenge, and having the Mini-Chef open things up should've given the contestants a clue. I was suprised that Ariel's lasagne didn't go over better - kids usually love lasagne. I wish they'd've had Ramsey taste the dishes and give his opinion, too.

I'm very glad Tennille's gone. Every word that came out of her mouth was annoying. Dave needs to remember to lift pans with his good hand. When he had the meltdown he had a pan full of lamb and was lifting it with the broken hand. Kevin is somehow convinced that he doesn't have a weakness, and that knowing the others' weaknesses will be the key there. And Ariel just quietly continues to do well.

StG

corkboard

10-07-2009, 08:22 AM

Ferret Herder

10-07-2009, 08:32 AM

A "vegetarian" meal doesn't necessarily mean it has to have veggies, does it?
No, but it wouldn't be well-rounded without some - or at least, you'd be hard-pressed to make a decent dish that Ramsay would approve of, I think. You're more or less stuck with starches and dairy, maybe tofu or similar faked meat. A really nice fettucine alfredo would still be vegetarian, but it's kind of... simple.

phungi

10-07-2009, 08:36 AM

The kicker with that challenge was they only had an hour to think of it and prepare 80 servings. My wife said "I'd just make linguini and marinara sauce and garlic bread", and we both had a laugh over it, like that would go over really well with Ramsay.

Then the kids showed up. They would have loved it! A "vegetarian" meal doesn't necessarily mean it has to have veggies, does it?

I was thinking along the same lines... some fancy pasta (orichette or farfalle), a veggie (peas or something green), a nice sauce (perhaps a vodka/cream) and garlic bread... was very surprised there was not one single pasta dish... of course, I wouldn't have lasted through the first verbal thrashing to get this far...

Ferret Herder

10-07-2009, 08:38 AM

I'm very glad Tennille's gone. Every word that came out of her mouth was annoying. Dave needs to remember to lift pans with his good hand. When he had the meltdown he had a pan full of lamb and was lifting it with the broken hand. Kevin is somehow convinced that he doesn't have a weakness, and that knowing the others' weaknesses will be the key there. And Ariel just quietly continues to do well.
I find myself liking Tennille, then she goes into her shouty routine in the camera confessional shots, and that good will dissipates.

Dave - dude, I really worry that you're killing your arm. I broke my dominant wrist two years ago, had access to some of the best orthopedic doctors in the nation, was told my recovery (both in bone mending and in physical therapy progress) was excellent, and it still aches at times when I lift something really heavy. I was toting my big enameled cast iron Dutch oven the other night and winced a bit. I agree, he's got to compensate even more with his other arm, with the rest of his body, whatever it takes. He's doing awesome all things considered, but you're right. I saw him holding a pan handle in his casted hand and holding the spoon/whatever in his other hand - not the way to go here.

If Ariel quietly came up from behind and won it all, I would not be surprised.

Tom Tildrum

10-07-2009, 09:37 AM

Laughs are going to be a lot scarcer with ol’ Tennille gone…

Agreed. With just silent Ariel, nasty Dave, and pompous Kevin left, it's going to be a bit of a slog.

Covered_In_Bees!

10-07-2009, 12:45 PM

Tennille's exit is just a symbolism that it's serious now. A whole bunch of kids came to eat but one didn't leave until the end of the show. Now the adults can do their thing, even if Ariel and Dave are younger than Ten.

YogSosoth

10-07-2009, 02:04 PM

I hated Tennille and am glad she's gone. Her habit of shouting into the camera was really off-putting, and her constant bitching was grating. Her attitude seems to be that she was always getting picked on and just would not let that go. Every time I see her accepting some blame or acting not like a bitch, she goes on an angry rant that makes me lose all good feelings for her.

Kevin seems to have gotten arrogant just in the past couple of weeks. I don't see that as a particularly bad thing: there's only a few people left, of course you're going to start comparing yourself to other individuals. I'm sure they all think their better than the other. I hope he or Dave wins because they've been the most consistent.

StarvingButStrong

10-07-2009, 05:59 PM

The only way Dave won't be in the final two is if he gets invalided out.

As for the other finalist -- it probably should be Kevin. OTOH, haven't they always come down to one man vs. one woman?

Sage Rat

10-07-2009, 11:07 PM

The whole thing seemed to be designed as an exercise in getting rid of Tennille. I didn't get the feeling like she screwed up the fish so much as that Ramsay had decided that she had earned some goodies and done an impressive job compared to what he expected, but now it was time to get rid of her. They gave her some knives, trumped up her lack of fish cooking skills, and said G'bye Lady.

gotpasswords

10-08-2009, 10:46 AM

At least they were very nice knives - looked to be about $600 worth of Henckels Miyabi knives.

Hell, I don't care if they gave her the Henckels factory. She's finally gone!

that_darn_cat

10-08-2009, 07:07 PM

Ho;y Crap! Van's mom lives in my town. Next time I need a tow, I'm calling Ultima Towing and asking for Luna!

http://www.wwe.com/superstars/wherearetheynow/photos/lunaphotostout/currentluna/

TBG

10-10-2009, 04:02 PM

Heads up, the show's on for two hours again this week, and it's the finale. If you're recording it, adjust your equipment accordingly.

Jane Elliot

10-13-2009, 08:31 PM

Watching the finale. A couple thoughts:

Dave wins the challenge cooking Indian food for the first time in his life.
Kevin is a douche-bag.
The eliminated chefs come back to help with the final service - where is Tennile???
Thank goodness Robert was eliminated.

I want Dave to win. 30 Minutes to go.

Jane Elliot

10-13-2009, 08:32 PM

Jane Elliot

10-13-2009, 08:33 PM

Sorry for the double post. Too much wine with dinner.

Diogenes the Cynic

10-13-2009, 08:48 PM

I don't know why Kevin's team keeps taking so much shit from him. I'd tell him to fuck off and go over to help Dave.

Covered_In_Bees!

10-13-2009, 10:01 PM

Dave is nobody's bitch!

Diogenes the Cynic

10-13-2009, 10:10 PM

Hooray for Dave.

I like that he chose Ariel first for his team. It was unexepected, but it was smart in that she was so flattered and boosted by it. It really put her on his side in a big way.

Kevin was a total dick to his team and was an even worse dick for trying to sabotage Ariel. I'm glad he lost.

I still can't quite see Dave as a boss. He strikes me as the quintessential, rock solid line cook -- the guy who shows up baked for every shift, but always quietly navigates through the service with nary a problem, and never gets too deep in the weeds. Every kitchen seems to have a guy like that. He doesn't seem like a take charge and yell guy, but he could probably hire a sous chef to do the yelling.

LVBoPeep

10-14-2009, 12:03 AM

I was pretty happy with that (and I liked that Dave acknowledged that Suzanne wasn't a loser). Kevin was a douche- I don't know if he's really like that or just got desperate. I liked that Dave took a risk with the venison for the first finale challenge and still won. And Robert is just a jerk- I still can't figure out why he got to come back and Julia (the only one I know of that it was hinted she might be back, I think season 2?) is no where to be seen.

Munch

10-14-2009, 07:36 AM

Dave wins the challenge cooking Indian food for the first time in his life.
:confused: Dave cooked venison (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venison)for the challenge.

StGermain

10-14-2009, 08:16 AM

Munch - It was like a 2-part ep. In the Quickfire (the first challenge) all three chefs had to cook an ethnic dish - Indian, Chinese or Mexican. They chose a domed dish, and whatever was under it was the nationality they had to cook. Ariel went first and got CHinese. She was happy, she's eaten a lot of chinese food. Dave chose second and got Indian, to his bewilderment ("Um...what kinds of protein can I use? Isn't beef worshipped there?") And Kevin got Mexican, which pleased him.

There were shelves for each nation with regional spices and foods. Dave just threw together what he thought would taste good. Kevin made a pork tenderloin and forgot to add the mole he'd made. Ariel's dish was tasty but th esauce wasn't quite right. Poor Ariel stumbled in front of the judges, not being able to remember what she cooked and revealing that she'd eaten a lot of chinese take-out, which seemed to be the limit of her experience with Chinese food. All three judges agreed that Dave's dish was best, especially since he'd never made Indian food before. Dave's prize was a set of cookware like they've been using in the kitchen and to be cooked for by each of the chefs who judged the regional cuisines.

Then they did dinner service and Kevin, Ariel and Dave had to run the pass. Kevin was upset because he thought Ariel was trying to sabotage him with her lamb, when what she was doing was trying to explain that they could cut out the bone because it was ruining the chop. He kept sending her back to try again. When it was her turn to run the ass, he basically sabotaged her. Dave did miss two of the quality-control dished that were done incorrectly. Ramsey kicked off Ariel, leaving Dave and Kevin as the final two.

Then Dave and Kevin had to cook a signature dish, the judges being from BC. Kevin did lobster, Dave did venison. In usual Hell's Kitchen fashion, the judging split down the middle until the last vote, which went to Dave. Next day was dinner service, with Dave and Kevin picking their teammates from the group of eliminated chefs (Teneille wasn't there). Robert did his best to sabotage Dave, and Amanda wasn't deliberately trying to sabotage Kevin, but did a good job of it anyway. In the end, Dave won the job.

StG

otternell

10-14-2009, 08:33 AM

I know this is totally petty and completely besides the point - but I cannot freakin' stand Dave's voice. he sounds like a damn duck and I would hate to work for him. I would not have nominated him on the basis of his annoying and hideous voice.

Sorry - I am a jerk - I know. But man, his voice is worse than Fran Drescher's laugh and I never thought that was possible.

StarvingButStrong

10-14-2009, 08:51 AM

Yeah, why wasn't Tennille brought back? If you look back over the chefs in the order of latest to first eliminated, the ones they brought back were the most recently ousted -- which I think is the usual pattern.

EXCEPT that they skipped over Andy and Tennille. I wonder what's the story behind that?

Two Many Cats

10-14-2009, 09:07 AM

Will this show ever learn not to give away the frickin' endings?! I knew Dave would win because the previews at the beginning of the show showed him crying and saying "I was so shocked!" I knew that was the reaction interview after the win. Dammit!

I also knew beforehand that Kevin would be in the final two because they showed his big bald head when Ramsey was bringing down the divider curtain for the final cook-off in a previous preview. Hell's Kitchen's editors suck!!:mad:

Ferret Herder

10-14-2009, 09:13 AM

In usual Hell's Kitchen fashion, the judging split down the middle until the last vote, which went to Dave.
How do they do this?! If I at least knew that the judges secretly pre-tasted it and then were assigned to give their on-camera judging in a particular order so as to draw out the suspense - and I highly suspect that coming up with a near-tie would be super easy when competing at this level - then I'd be happy. But the other explanations are that they're doing super-creative editing tricks to make it look like the judging was done in that tie-breaking fashion, or... that the judging is rigged. And yeah, I know my expectations for a reality show should be low, but that still bothers me.

LVBoPeep

10-14-2009, 09:20 AM

I agree the editing sucks but even not seeing those obvious clues (because I'm just not very observant) it seemed obvious that the final two would be Kevin & Dave and Dave would win by the time Kevin gave Ariel such a hard time over the lamb (personally, I think that should have shoved him out of the final two- that was picking just to pick). Although it was good to see that Ariel/lamb incident because I predicted that would be Kevin's main issue- he can cook, maybe even better than Dave but he doesn't inspire people to do their best for him. Dave did much better, tailoring his menu to what he knew his team could succeed at, being firm but supportive and Robert notwithstanding, making most of his team work well for him. I think picking Suzanne and Ariel the way he did- Ariel first to underline his respect for her, and Suzanne when she expected to be last put two people on his team that wanted to do their best for him. Then he didn't mess it up by putting them in over their heads.

Tequila Mockingbird

10-14-2009, 09:23 AM

Death of Rats

10-14-2009, 09:37 AM

I agree the editing sucks but even not seeing those obvious clues (because I'm just not very observant) it seemed obvious that the final two would be Kevin & Dave and Dave would win by the time Kevin gave Ariel such a hard time over the lamb (personally, I think that should have shoved him out of the final two- that was picking just to pick). Although it was good to see that Ariel/lamb incident because I predicted that would be Kevin's main issue- he can cook, maybe even better than Dave but he doesn't inspire people to do their best for him.

The thing with the lamb didn't hurt Kevin because Ramsey had the same issue with how she was cutting it.

I think the whole schtick of bring back a bunch of failed contestants with chips on thier shoulders is BS. I know it makes for good TV, but I would rather see them have an actual kitchen staff who do not have an interest in sabotaging the chef and let them rise or fall running a real kitchen. If I was the owner of the prize resturant I would want this too since I have to have this person in my kitchen for a year, BS job or not.

Ferret Herder

10-14-2009, 09:38 AM

I have to admit, I might have been disappointed with the result if Kevin hadn't gone into "schemer" mode the last few shows. It's interesting TV, sure, but it doesn't get my sympathy.

Tequila Mockingbird

10-14-2009, 10:08 AM

I suppose Kevin did get the schemer edot, but having watched every season of the show, he didn't seem that bad to me. I am also pretty sure the other two of the final three were also appraising their competition and schemeing to some extent.

I am not sure Kevin was throwing Ariel under the bus either. She was all over the place calling out orders. I know I wouldn't have been able to keep them straight. He wasn't sending up wrong food or cooking it wrong, he was just slow, waiting for her to settle down and call the orders in a way that was clear.

Diogenes the Cynic

10-14-2009, 10:13 AM

I disagree. He was sandbagging her. Even Dave thought so, and Kevin didn't even bother to deny it when asked.

gotpasswords

10-14-2009, 10:40 AM

Dave has a lot of heart and gives his all. He just doesn't seem quite there yet, like he needs another two years experience, preferrably while sober.

Kevin came across as more professional and accomplished. I think GR made a mistake this time, but it was a close competition.

I can't imagine a world in which Gordon Ramsay would tolerate drug or alcohol abuse in the kitchen, having survived an abusive alcoholic father and his brother's heroin addiction.

To me, Kevin came across as conniving, manipulative and skeevy. There's no shortage of any of that in the culinary world, but GR prizes determination, dedication and passion. David showed huge amounts of all of that. Dave could have very easily dropped out two months ago, but he persevered.

FlightlessBird

10-14-2009, 11:05 AM

I liked the little bits at the end with the outtakes from the season. I don't think they've ever done that before.
Also where did the 'design your restaurant' go? I guess it wasn't good tv.

Jeep's Phoenix

10-14-2009, 11:15 AM

Yeah, the outtake of JP getting soaked was great! :D

YogSosoth

10-14-2009, 11:37 AM

I'm happy for Dave that he won, though I could have accepted Kevin as well. Both of these guys were far and away the best chefs during the season.

Robert, W.T.F.?!?! What I thought before was simply a whiny, crybaby asshole has now become a sabotaging, evil asshole! I hope Gordon or Dave sees this replay on TV and then punches him in the face. He blamed everyone else during the season and never took any responsibility for his failures. Hell, even Van had a better attitude than him, and showed it in the final dinner service.

Yeah, what's up with Tenille not being part of the finals? If they wanted drama, they should have put her back. I guess it was a choice between her or Suzanne and the producers thought Suzanne was going to lose it. Tenille matured near the end though, and I believe she would have helped whoever chose her.

Great season of HK, but I hope the next season doesn't start in like 4 months. This season was rushed into air for some reason.

Dolores Reborn

10-14-2009, 12:58 PM

What did Robert do? I must have missed it.

I thought Kevin had been a colossal douche for the last few eps. I'm glad Dave won! He really needs to lose the watchcap, though. It makes me think his hair is always dirty under there.

Where was Tenille? Maybe she got pissed off and said screw ya...

Covered_In_Bees!

10-14-2009, 01:11 PM

What did Robert do? I must have missed it.

I lost all the respect I had for Robert in this episode. He did the super immature move of "If you're going to treat me in a way I don't like, then I'm going to start sabotaging your game."

Where was Tenille? Maybe she got pissed off and said screw ya...

Tennille had said she wasn't going to come back to help them. I don't remember when, but it was only once that she said this, but still I wasn't surprised not to see her.

Diogenes the Cynic

10-14-2009, 01:15 PM

It would have been amusing to see Tennille in the final 3, just to see how she would have reacted to Kevin trying to sabotage her when she was working the pass. She would have called him on it loudly and immediately.

gotpasswords

10-14-2009, 01:16 PM

Also where did the 'design your restaurant' go? I guess it wasn't good tv.
I'm glad they ditched that part. To swipe a term from another show, this is Top Chef, not Top Interior Designer.

Oh no! The painters put the blue paint on the wrong wall! What to do!?
The upholstery fabric is out of stock! Woe! Calamity!

So what?

Covered_In_Bees!

10-14-2009, 01:23 PM

It's because they weren't getting their own restaurant. But then again, neither did the last winner and they had to do the Design-a-Kitchen BS right?

Spoons

10-14-2009, 01:27 PM

Also where did the 'design your restaurant' go? I guess it wasn't good tv.I'm glad they didn't do it this time. Having seen it multiple times before, I was starting to feel like there wasn't much they could do with the room that they had (which, if I understand things correctly, is really a soundstage): maybe a coat of paint, different pictures on the walls, new carpet and upholstery, and similar. But if a finalist had a really different vision of what he or she would like (for example, a lower ceiling or a different wall layout), there was little else that could be done. Best, perhaps, to scratch the redecorating and get on with the contest.

I'm another one who was happy to see Dave win, by the way.

BrandonR

10-14-2009, 04:16 PM

I noticed the lack of the finalists designing their own kitchen as well. Perhaps Fox didn't want to fork over the money to redesign the dining area for essentially one episode? Also, weren't season finales in past seasons two hours long? I think I liked it better the way they did it this time though... Much less dragging it out.

lexi

10-14-2009, 04:49 PM

I liked that Dave took a risk with the venison for the first finale challenge and still won.
I liked it too that Dave chose venison, but more from the Canadian perspective. It seems every single high end restaurant here in Western Canada has venison on the menu, and it was an appropriate choice with the location of Araxia.

Dave does come across as a guy who has hit the bong one too many times though, but that too should help him fit into the culture (http://www.canoe.ca/SlamNaganoSnowboarding/feb15_inw.html) in Whistler as well - ;)

Loved it that they did away with the design side of the challenge too!

kiz

10-14-2009, 06:52 PM

So, I guess I was the only one a little disappointed that Dave won over Kevin?

I kept remembering all the times Dave would stumble over his words and forget ingredients during this entire season.

Dave has a lot of heart and gives his all. He just doesn't seem quite there yet, like he needs another two years experience, preferrably while sober.

Kevin came across as more professional and accomplished. I think GR made a mistake this time, but it was a close competition.

:nodding: I thought the same thing too, excluding the sober. I chalk up Dave's demeanor as either being "that's just how he is" or being dragged out by the painkillers he must have been taking for his wrist. I honestly don't know how he managed it, but hey, more power to him.

I also think Kevin got the "schemer" edit, but really, he didn't come off as such to me. He had more of an "executive" presence at the pass than Dave. OTOH, Dave's people truly worked for him rather than trying to sabotage him (yes, Robert, I'm looking at you).