The Hell of Murder

[Stoid]

I have hated teh very idea of death all my life. I've been angry about it since the moment I understood what it was. All death, any death...young, old, disease, accident, suicide.

But my god... murder is just so incredibly horrible and cruel and frustrating and maddening.

And it's possible that pointless murder that is merely a kind of collateral damage in the commission of another crime might be worst of all.

I don't know how many Dopers have read about it, but a bright, warm, generous, loving, happy and talented young girl by the name of Lily Burk (http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2009/07/arrest-made-in-slaying-of-lily-burk.html), all of 17 years old, was murdered Friday night here in Los Angeles.

I didn't know her, but I am just a degree of separattion: my best friend's daughter was friends with her and was going to appear in a play with her this week. I heard about the murder first from my friend.

This is the second murder that has touched my life recently, and the first was a horrible mirror of this one: Kirsten Brydum (http://articles.latimes.com/2009/jan/31/nation/na-anarchist31) was actually closer, in that I knew her. She was the girlfriend of another dear friend's son. I spent an evening with her discussing vegetarianism.

Both girls shared many traits, but the key trait that might have actually led to their deaths was that they were both openhearted, generous, trusting souls with a desire to make the world a better place. They didn't operate from a place of fear and self-protection. It's hard to imagine the kid I was, and that my friends were, being victimized that way simply because we were actually pretty streetwise.

I can't seem to shake Lily's murder out of my mind... I don't know why. Maybe because it's so easy to imagine exactly the way it happened, and how perhaps she might have not died. Samuel had no gun... if she'd screamed, run, fought. He didnt' want to kill her, he just wanted money. Maybe because I keep imagining being her parents, playing those last phone calls over and over in my head.

It's all so fucking hideously awful. And there's no rewind. No undo. No FUCKING FUCKING FUCKING WAY TO FIX IT.

FUCK!!!!!!!!!

Jesus fuck this beautiful spirit... the sweet good soul with the shimmering future. Tossed like a kleenex.

And while I have NO love for the man who killed her, I do have some degree of sorrow and frustration for him as well. He was someone's shimmering future at some point in his life, then something tossed him aside. Not with the finality and brutality and cruelty that Lily suffered at his hands, but still. And we have to care...if not about Samuel himself, because he's already gone too far and is beyond our help, but for the budding Samuels. We have to care about the Samuels JUST BECAUSE we care about the LILYs and and the KIRSTENS. The only way we can hope to prevent them is not by locking up every crackhead and throwing away the key, but by doing everything we can as a society to not let anyone be thrown away.

God fuck god FUCK... it's so fucking STUPID!!!!!

fuck.

[Miller]

Hang on, let me see if I'm following you here. You seem to be saying - and correct me if I've got this wrong - that murder is somehow bad?

Well, it's a provocative position, to be sure, but I hardly think it'll get much traction in the real world.

[IvoryTowerDenizen]

I'm sorry to hear of your friend's daughter's loss. It's a shame she has to face such senselessness so early.

I's really awful when things like this happen.

[Stoid]

Hang on, let me see if I'm following you here. You seem to be saying - and correct me if I've got this wrong - that murder is somehow bad?

Well, it's a provocative position, to be sure, but I hardly think it'll get much traction in the real world.

I lost a very very close friend to suicide just before The Trial. My mother died of old age 6 months prior to that.

I didn't even KNOW Lily and something about her death has me by the throat in a way my mother and my friend's deaths did not.

[Argent Towers]

And while I have NO love for the man who killed her, I do have some degree of sorrow and frustration for him as well. He was someone's shimmering future at some point in his life, then something tossed him aside. Not with the finality and brutality and cruelty that Lily suffered at his hands, but still. And we have to care...if not about Samuel himself, because he's already gone too far and is beyond our help, but for the budding Samuels. We have to care about the Samuels JUST BECAUSE we care about the LILYs and and the KIRSTENS. The only way we can hope to prevent them is not by locking up every crackhead and throwing away the key, but by doing everything we can as a society to not let anyone be thrown away.

I sure as fuck don't have any sympathy for him. He's a worthless piece of shit.

Guess what else? He was on parole when he committed this murder! Surprise surprise!

I have said this many times and I'll say it once more. I am in favor of the harshest possible penalties for violent crime. I believe in mandatory death sentences for murder, forcible rape, and armed robbery. When I say death sentence, I mean death sentence. One appeal - ONE - and then death. I believe in mandatory 25-year prison terms and sterilization for burglary, auto theft and other non-violent crimes. I'm also in favor of a lot of things that aren't even constitutional, and I'm not ashamed to admit it. I'm in favor of cruel and unusual punishment for some offenses. I am in favor of torture, including torturing to death, for a cold blooded murder like this one.

What can I say? I support cruelty and brutality to those who are themselves cruel and brutal. I don't believe in the idea that "it makes you no better than them." No. That's not the way it works. There is a difference between some crackhead piece of shit brutally murdering an innocent 17-year-old girl for no reason, and that murderer being tortured to death as punishment for what he did. Those who deny this difference are morally bankrupt.

I wish for a return to the days of drawing and quartering, public execution, etc. I'm absolutely 100% serious and I don't care how insane it makes me seem.

[IvoryTowerDenizen]

I lost a very very close friend to suicide just before The Trial. My mother died of old age 6 months prior to that.

I didn't even KNOW Lily and something about her death has me by the throat in a way my mother and my friend's deaths did not.

I really understand this. I had three people close to me die in unexpected ways within three months. I handled the first two pretty well. The third death triggered panic attacks and I found my way into therapy for the first time ever. Sometimes the cumulative effect of these stressors can come out in unexpected ways.

[Stoid]

Guess what else? He was on parole when he committed this murder! Surprise surprise!


Yes. For petty theft. He's never been convicted of a violent crime, there would never be a reason to think he'd commit a crime like this. That was what I meant by collateral - I don't think he intended to kill her, I think he became violent out of rage or frustration and the next thing you know...she's gone.

[Miller]

I'm absolutely 100% serious and I don't care how insane it makes me seem.

That's good, because it makes you seem like a whole shitload of insane.

[Rhythmdvl]

ETA: replying to AT

Dude, no one can mention gunning their engine in a thread without you chiming in with a hundred and one Constitutional arguments protecting their rights. And yet all along it's been empty rhetoric, based solely on "I wants me guns" because you don't give a crap about any of the other amendments or the Constitution in general?

You're espousing an ethical system that makes SmashTheState look scholarly, and then drawing a line to declare dissenters morally bankrupt?

You're a bit one-tracked in general, but at least you usually put a bit of thought into things. What happened?

[Argent Towers]

I truly believe in a reciprocal concept of justice. I respect the established system of justice that we have in America because I believe that I am an American first and an individual second, so I will conform to the law as it is written in our Constitution. However, if it were up to me, our Constitution would be different. Including an amendment fully legalizing all forms of drugs. It's not like wanting to change some things about the constitution means you have no respect at all for the whole Constitution.

[Kimmy_Gibbler]

Yes. For petty theft. He's never been convicted of a violent crime, there would never be a reason to think he'd commit a crime like this. That was what I meant by collateral - I don't think he intended to kill her, I think he became violent out of rage or frustration and the next thing you know...she's gone.

Stoid, at least some of us got your point. And I agree: there's no joy in the killing of anyone, no matter how much resentment they stir up in us. But we can be there for those devastated by senseless violence and other tragedies.

[Jimmy Chitwood]

I sure as fuck don't have any sympathy for him. He's a worthless piece of shit.

Guess what else? He was on parole when he committed this murder! Surprise surprise!

I have said this many times and I'll say it once more. I am in favor of the harshest possible penalties for violent crime. I believe in mandatory death sentences for murder, forcible rape, and armed robbery. When I say death sentence, I mean death sentence. One appeal - ONE - and then death. I believe in mandatory 25-year prison terms and sterilization for burglary, auto theft and other non-violent crimes. I'm also in favor of a lot of things that aren't even constitutional, and I'm not ashamed to admit it. I'm in favor of cruel and unusual punishment for some offenses. I am in favor of torture, including torturing to death, for a cold blooded murder like this one.

What can I say? I support cruelty and brutality to those who are themselves cruel and brutal. I don't believe in the idea that "it makes you no better than them." No. That's not the way it works. There is a difference between some crackhead piece of shit brutally murdering an innocent 17-year-old girl for no reason, and that murderer being tortured to death as punishment for what he did. Those who deny this difference are morally bankrupt.

I wish for a return to the days of drawing and quartering, public execution, etc. I'm absolutely 100% serious and I don't care how insane it makes me seem.

Why are you telling us?

[Bryan Ekers]

Well, if you'd like some calming levity, I suggest an article at Cracked.com titled "7 People Who Cheated Death (Then Kicked it in the Balls) (http://www.cracked.com/article_16497_7-people-who-cheated-death-then-kicked-it-in-balls.html)". Only one specifically survived a murder attempt (though a second was a POW, which is kinda close), and the overall message is simple: FUCK death.

[Argent Towers]

Because I think we're moving closer and closer to a criminal "justice" system which favors the criminals and not their victims, and I wish we would move in the opposite direction. It bothers me very much when someone expresses any sympathy for the murderer of an innocent teenage girl over a little bit of money. This is simply not civilized behavior.

I truly believe that as human beings we have been given a great gift, the gift of civilization. I think that for the good of all mankind, those who do not conform to certain basic rules of civilization, like "don't kill an innocent person" need to be removed from civilization because they clearly do not want to abide by its standards.

Brutal punishment for criminals doesn't mean that civilization becomes barbaric. There were brutal punishments in ancient Rome - were the ancient Romans uncivilized? It's not like I'm advocating a return to gladiators and feeding people to animals, but frankly it really would not bother me if Charles Samuels was drawn and quartered.

[Miller]

It bothers me very much when someone expresses any sympathy for the murderer of an innocent teenage girl over a little bit of money.

It's worth noting that this has not happened in this thread.

Brutal punishment for criminals doesn't mean that civilization becomes barbaric. There were brutal punishments in ancient Rome - were the ancient Romans uncivilized?

Yes. The ancient Roman were brutal fucking savages. It was an unbelievably monstrous society. By any modern calculation, they were a viciously depraved and throughly evil nation, of the sort you normally find as the villains in underwritten fantasy novels.

Also, I'm unclear on why gladiatorial combat and feeding people to animals is bad, but public executions by torture are good. How do you figure one to be any worse than the other?

[Argent Towers]

I want to stress that the views I have put forth in this thread are not some impulsive "gut instinct" like what is being discussed in that other thread about the death penalty for rapists. It is a personal philosophy that I have gradually adopted over a long period of time based on my studies of history - that a society can have a draconian justice system and still be civilized. All of the great developments of the Renaissance, all of the scientific and artistic innovations which came out of it, happened under governments that used the most brutal punishments on criminals. Shakespeare, Tycho and Kepler, Leonardo and Caravaggio - all products of societies which embraced more or less the same attitude towards violent criminals which I do.

Of course, there was also unjust persecution of people during that time who did nothing wrong, based solely on their religion. I'm not justifying that. You can learn from the past and also improve on it.

[Stoid]

It bothers me very much when someone expresses any sympathy for the murderer of an innocent teenage girl over a little bit of money.


I want to quote the words of the young man who loved Kirsten, words he wrote a few months after her death (I love this kid so much, he's amazing.)

Many of the relationships I have had would probably have stood a better chance with out me picking at them. Most of my wounds would probably heal nicely had I not been so enamored with what happens when I unravel my sutures.

Questioning leaves nasty scars. I have been picking at a fresh scab for the last few weeks.

One of my oldest and dearest friends, a girl with whom I spent a substantial portion of my youth romantically involved , was murdered while traveling the country conducting research for a project she called “collective autonomy” (living free and independently together) and I can’t help but ponder the what ifs.


If someone in New Orleans had been paid to counsel parents on the importance of physical interactions and reading out loud to their infants, if those parents took that advice to heart, if those parents made enough money to give their child every ounce of education, every sports uniform and every toy for every birthday if that kid never felt alone, awkward or deprived, if that kid didn’t turn into a desperate teenager who felt alienated and forgotten by a country hell-bent on neglecting its desperately impoverished, if that teenager was taught how to deal with anger and depression in a constructive way by someone sincere and reliable.

If there were better streetlights in the 9th ward.

If in 1965 when the Mississippi gulf outlet was completed, someone would have noticed that it intensified the power of hurricanes by more than 20%. If the levees didn’t break; if FEMA and the president hadn’t avoided and mismanaged every element of recovery.

If they had seen my friend’s smile when she used to hold my little sister, or when she talked about social equality.

If someone, anyone, along the way had seen this person and shown them a fraction of the love I felt for the woman they murdered, maybe there would have been a different outcome, and she would still be alive.

Deconstruction like this only works to reconstruct whatever trauma inspired it. Taking apart reality in this way leaves me with an unfortunate result; the world is laid out in front of me in nice pieces, each one detached and disassembled, and I can’t for the life of me remember how to put them back together in a way that works.

Controlling things has little to do with understanding them and even less to do with taking them apart. Football teams still lose regardless of a fantasy league. The Dalai Lama is still left with piles of springs and no answers, and I am left with one less friend and a thousand more questions.


He was wounded in the very depths of his soul by her death, and still he can see it from such an evolved place. I love him to pieces, and I know that both Kirsten and Lily saw the world very much the same way.

No, it's not to excuse Samuel or the anonymous killer of Kirsten, but is it really so impossible to hope that we can see how the killers are made and try to prevent their development? We'll never stop the Jeffrey Dahmers, that's something that I believe is written on the DNA of a person. But the majority of murders are committed by people who weren't born that way. And if we want to PREVENT the senseless death of a thousand Lilys, our best chance is not to act out our rage on Samuel, but to see where the other Samuels are forming, and try to stop it.

[Argent Towers]

Well, that's one way of looking at it, and my way is another way. I won't try to convince you to see things my way, but I won't adopt someone else's views. I have my own principles; that's that.

[Stoid]

Brutal punishment for criminals doesn't mean that civilization becomes barbaric. There were brutal punishments in ancient Rome - were the ancient Romans uncivilized?

I guess it depends on what you consider civilization. I happen to think that civilization encompasses more than a well-formed political system and plumbing.

[Argent Towers]

Well, as I said, you can look at it your way, and I'll look at it my way. I consider Singapore to be a very civilized place - you'd probably consider it uncivilized. Whatever. Different people see things differently.

[Stoid]

Well, if you'd like some calming levity, I suggest an article at Cracked.com titled "7 People Who Cheated Death (Then Kicked it in the Balls) (http://www.cracked.com/article_16497_7-people-who-cheated-death-then-kicked-it-in-balls.html)". Only one specifically survived a murder attempt (though a second was a POW, which is kinda close), and the overall message is simple: FUCK death.

Thank you for that, I haven't finished chekcing it out, but I watched the video about the young man who had to cut off his arm. I watched the whole program when it originally aired, and he blew me away. Watching it just now I felt myself tearing up for him. What a hellish experience, how phenomenal was his courage and strength! I love life but I'm a big baby and for all the guts I have around emotional things, I'm useless with physical. I think I would have just cried until I passed out and died.

[supergoose]

No, it's not to excuse Samuel or the anonymous killer of Kirsten, but is it really so impossible to hope that we can see how the killers are made and try to prevent their development? We'll never stop the Jeffrey Dahmers, that's something that I believe is written on the DNA of a person. But the majority of murders are committed by people who weren't born that way. And if we want to PREVENT the senseless death of a thousand Lilys, our best chance is not to act out our rage on Samuel, but to see where the other Samuels are forming, and try to stop it.

First off, I'm sorry for your loss. Maybe your reaction to Lily's death is more intense because it comes on the heels of your other loses, but it could also be simply the manner in which she died. Your close friend had control over his/her death, and your mother died naturally after a long, likely fulfilled life, whereas Lily died randomly and violently far younger than she likely would have naturally.

Secondly, I disagree that people like Dahmer are genetically caused to be murderers. You might have a point regarding people who have no feelings or conscience towards other people - I don't know what causes that - but sexually sadistic murders, I believe, are caused by skewed sexual imprinting, which isn't clearly understood, but, as far as I know, happens at puberty and is an issue of nurture rather than nature.

Thirdly, I don't know exactly why, but the way you write about these murders (in pretty much every post in this thread*) to me sounds off-puttingly pompous and pontificating. Just something to maybe keep in mind in future.

*Edit: your last several posts (and subsequent one) are fine in tone, to my ears. Sorry about my blanket statement.

[Stoid]

Well, if you'd like some calming levity, I suggest an article at Cracked.com titled "7 People Who Cheated Death (Then Kicked it in the Balls) (http://www.cracked.com/article_16497_7-people-who-cheated-death-then-kicked-it-in-balls.html)". Only one specifically survived a murder attempt (though a second was a POW, which is kinda close), and the overall message is simple: FUCK death.


Thanks again because it was very amusingly written! Now I'm all grinny.

[Stoid]

Thirdly, I don't know exactly why, but the way you write about these murders (in pretty much every post in this thread) to me sounds off-puttingly pompous and pontificating. Just something to maybe keep in mind in future.

I have a tendency to sound that way in all kinds of situations, unfortunately. Can't always tell. But it's a lifelong affliction: I was less articulately accused of the same thing when I was in grade school. Both my parents have the same tendency, I'm sure that has everything to do with it.

[Stoid]

Secondly, I disagree that people like Dahmer are genetically caused to be murderers. You might have a point regarding people who have no feelings or conscience towards other people - I don't know what causes that - but sexually sadistic murders, I believe, are caused by skewed sexual imprinting, which isn't clearly understood, but, as far as I know, happens at puberty and is an issue of nurture rather than nature.
.

I thought that Dahmer was skinning kittens when he was just a kid? But whichever way, the sick runs really, really deep.

The ones that REALLY blow my mind are the guy-next-door killers, the hubby/wife sick of their spouse, decides that the best way to be rid of them is murder. WHAT? PARDON ME? Very strange.

[Lemur866]

You know what works a heck of a lot better than draconian punishment?

Certain punishment.

If the odds of getting caught are low enough, human beings discount the severity of the consequences. It can't happen to THEM.

But if you're pretty much guaranteed to be caught the punishment itself doesn't have to be that severe, because the cause and effect are obvious.

[Rand Rover]

I sure as fuck don't have any sympathy for him. He's a worthless piece of shit.

Guess what else? He was on parole when he committed this murder! Surprise surprise!

I have said this many times and I'll say it once more. I am in favor of the harshest possible penalties for violent crime. I believe in mandatory death sentences for murder, forcible rape, and armed robbery. When I say death sentence, I mean death sentence. One appeal - ONE - and then death. I believe in mandatory 25-year prison terms and sterilization for burglary, auto theft and other non-violent crimes. I'm also in favor of a lot of things that aren't even constitutional, and I'm not ashamed to admit it. I'm in favor of cruel and unusual punishment for some offenses. I am in favor of torture, including torturing to death, for a cold blooded murder like this one.

What can I say? I support cruelty and brutality to those who are themselves cruel and brutal. I don't believe in the idea that "it makes you no better than them." No. That's not the way it works. There is a difference between some crackhead piece of shit brutally murdering an innocent 17-year-old girl for no reason, and that murderer being tortured to death as punishment for what he did. Those who deny this difference are morally bankrupt.

I wish for a return to the days of drawing and quartering, public execution, etc. I'm absolutely 100% serious and I don't care how insane it makes me seem.

I've been meaning to start a thread about this in GD forever, maybe I'll motivate you to do it for me. :)

Here's how the business end of RR's criminal justice system works: three tiers of punishment.

Tier 1: For nonviolent crime, property crimes, and maybe even some young first offenders that commit violent crime, the punishment is a boot camp of sorts, with the idea being that the person wasn't socialized properly by their parents or whoever so they state will try to do the job.

Tier 2: If people who have been to boot camp re-offend, and for all violent criminals (other than young first-time offenders and those that are dealt with in Tier 3), the punishment is essentially Coventry--life in prison (or somewhere outside of society where they can't return) with no possibility of parole.

Tier 3: For rape and murder, the punishment is death. Also, I generally support a limit on appeals, but I haven't thought through the actual parameters of this.

I just think that a 5- or 10- or 20-year sentence for someone who commits burglary or armed robbery or whatever is just an incredibly stupid idea. It turns prisons into a breeding ground for better criminals (it's like grad school really). Either try to teach those folks how to be proper members of society (Tier 1) or banish them (Tier 2).

[Fear Itself]

Well, as I said, you can look at it your way, and I'll look at it my way. I consider Singapore to be a very civilized place - you'd probably consider it uncivilized. Whatever. Different people see things differently.I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you were physically or sexually abused as a child. Am I wrong?

[Miller]

Of course, there was also unjust persecution of people during that time who did nothing wrong, based solely on their religion. I'm not justifying that. You can learn from the past and also improve on it.

Indeed, you can. Which is precisely why we no longer consider public execution by torture to be an acceptable practice.

[Kimmy_Gibbler]

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you were physically or sexually abused as a child. Am I wrong?

Ah, the smart set weighs in. :rolleyes:

[Argent Towers]

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you were physically or sexually abused as a child. Am I wrong?

You're...wrong, Dr. Drew. Sorry.

[Fear Itself]

That's OK, someday maybe you will be able to talk about it.

[Pedro]

You know what works a heck of a lot better than draconian punishment?

Certain punishment.

If the odds of getting caught are low enough, human beings discount the severity of the consequences. It can't happen to THEM.

But if you're pretty much guaranteed to be caught the punishment itself doesn't have to be that severe, because the cause and effect are obvious.

This will never happen. I don't think most people realise how difficult and expensive it is to clear many murder cases. How do you explain this case then? Clearly this is an individual who is not very concerned with certain punishment. Commits murder with little motive and walks into two policeman with bloody clothes, a crack pipe and the victim's car keys. Gets arrested under 90 minutes later for an unrelated charge.

[Pedro]

That's OK, someday maybe you will be able to talk about it.

Idiot.

[Vinyl Turnip]

Towers/Rover in 2012: America's Lashing Back!(tm)

[Mighty_Girl]

There is a difference between some crackhead piece of shit brutally murdering an innocent 17-year-old girl for no reason, and that murderer being tortured to death as punishment for what he did. Those who deny this difference are morally bankrupt.Why my soul just filed for Chapter 11.

:rolleyes:

[RedFury]

I truly believe in a reciprocal concept of justice. I respect the established system of justice that we have in America because I believe that I am an American first and an individual second, so I will conform to the law as it is written in our Constitution. However, if it were up to me, our Constitution would be different. Including an amendment fully legalizing all forms of drugs. It's not like wanting to change some things about the constitution means you have no respect at all for the whole Constitution. -- bolding mine.

It's obviously not stopping you from using massive amounts.

Nurse!

[Rigamarole]

I get what you're talking about - my girlfriend's father was murdered last year around Thanksgiving. He was shot in the head and chest several times. It has wrought terrible havoc on her psyche that I don't think she will ever really get over.

What's worse is it happened in Guatemala (where she is from), and there is basically no chance of the killers ever being apprehended or dealt with in any way. The country's central government is weak, corrupt, and underfunded and the narco-traffickers basically run the place, giving them free reign to shoot whoever they want without consequences. She has led me to understand that some people in her family (cousins) are making some attempt to locate the killers, but can expect no help from the police and are putting their own lives at risk by doing so.

It's a shitty state of affairs and it's very hard to offer any consolation. Sure everyone has to die, but not like that.

[Stoid]

This will never happen. I don't think most people realise how difficult and expensive it is to clear many murder cases. How do you explain this case then? Clearly this is an individual who is not very concerned with certain punishment. Commits murder with little motive and walks into two policeman with bloody clothes, a crack pipe and the victim's car keys. Gets arrested under 90 minutes later for an unrelated charge.


What many people don't realize is how real becoming institutionalized really is, and I think that has a lot to do with this kind of behavior. After a person has spent enough time in prison, the real world is terrifying. They have no faith in their ability to function outside of a prison setting, so they just act out in any way they like, fully aware they will end up back in prison and just as happy to do so.

I lived with a guy when I was very young who suffered from that and when life on the street just got too hard, he robbed a bank and then went and sat on a bus bench and waited for the cops to come and get him and take him back where he felt safe and knew how to function.

[Lemur866]

This will never happen. I don't think most people realise how difficult and expensive it is to clear many murder cases. How do you explain this case then? Clearly this is an individual who is not very concerned with certain punishment. Commits murder with little motive and walks into two policeman with bloody clothes, a crack pipe and the victim's car keys. Gets arrested under 90 minutes later for an unrelated charge.

Gosh, if only the murderer had known he'd be harshly punished, he wouldn't have done did it!

But since we coddle criminals in this country by not torturing them to death, they just rape and kill whenever they please, and the courts can't do a thing.

[Pedro]

Gosh, if only the murderer had known he'd be harshly punished, he wouldn't have done did it!

But since we coddle criminals in this country by not torturing them to death, they just rape and kill whenever they please, and the courts can't do a thing.

Gosh, isn't that clever, arguing against something I didn't say. I was calling your idea ineffective and utopian. Hope that helps.

Oh and gosh, OF COURSE the idea of a paid for stay for life in a cosy cell for a crack addict with a miserable life is a much more effective deterrent that the threat of pain and suffering.

[Pedro]

What many people don't realize is how real becoming institutionalized really is, and I think that has a lot to do with this kind of behavior. After a person has spent enough time in prison, the real world is terrifying. They have no faith in their ability to function outside of a prison setting, so they just act out in any way they like, fully aware they will end up back in prison and just as happy to do so.

I lived with a guy when I was very young who suffered from that and when life on the street just got too hard, he robbed a bank and then went and sat on a bus bench and waited for the cops to come and get him and take him back where he felt safe and knew how to function.

I agree. People like this become trapped in a life outside of civilised society and are always circling the drain in a way. I imagine that if I had to survive in the violent environment of most prisons it would warp my outlook on killing and being killed. This of course can never excuse taking an innocent girl's life.

[Stoid]

I agree. People like this become trapped in a life outside of civilised society and are always circling the drain in a way. I imagine that if I had to survive in the violent environment of most prisons it would warp my outlook on killing and being killed. This of course can never excuse taking an innocent girl's life.

You'd be amazed. The man I lived with was, in his heart, a very thoughtful, loving spirit that was like some kind of...I dunno, spirtual Bonzai. He was in prison at 17 for a $16 theft of the gas station he worked at, and ended up killing a guy who tried to rape him, so his 18 months turned into a decade. And he was jumpy and strange in really odd ways. I was absolutely not allowed to surprise or goose him, EVER. He warned me that he could turn and hurt me from pure instinct. I guess that's so when you spend your life worrying about getting shivved all the time.

I can spot cons now, it's curious. They have a look, a way of walking, moving, and of course, a "style" that is very specific. If you want to see an amazing performance, you should see Dustin Hoffman in "Straight Time" - that came out while I was still with this guy and it was astonishing - I was sure Hoffman had been shadowing my boyfriend to prep for the role. The look, speech, walk, talk, the way he smoked, shrugged his shoulders... it was incredibly eerie.

[aldiboronti]

Tier 3: For rape and murder, the punishment is death.

Well, that should certainly keep the number of rape victims down. Living ones, that is, as rapists will have every incentive to kill their victims if they face no greater punishment for it.

[Guinastasia]

Really, and it's not like the wrong people are ever are ever accused and convicted!!!

[Zoe]

If we tortured people in prison, that would just be another reason for other countries not to expedite fugitives to us. Some already won't do it because we have the death penalty. Other civilized countries have done away with the death sentence.

I think that most people who support torturing others haven't survived terrible pain themselves. I'm talking about the kind that makes you scream. You could never wish that on anyone.