If I may speak for the 12% or so

[Stuffy]

There are/have been numerous threads here lately about Blacks. Be it the Is the Republican Platform Racist, the various incantations of Affirmative Actions, Jesse Jackson, the WB, and even Kwanza for crying out loud. It would take entirely too long to put my opinion in each one so I'll try and address them all here:

Jesse Jackson, Louis Farrakan et.al...

These people, like most Blacks are individuals, who speak/write or whatever of their own accord, for their own reasons. We did not elect them to speak for us, and they do not represent every Black person in America. Please try to understand that they in no way speak for our entire community, just as we assume that Pat Buchannan and David Duke don't speak for the white community. This is America and everyone has the right to voice their opinions no matter how stupid or racist it may be.

Affirmative Action

You may find this hard to believe, but not every black person, and I'd venture to say very few acheived their jobs, education or what have you through this program. A lot of us have student loans and/or worked our way through college. A lot of us have acheived success the same way most of you do....we worked for it goddamnit. Please get over it.

The WB, or black shows

I'm sorry you don't find these shows amusing. You might be surprised to know that some people in the Black community share this opinion. TV sucks! There is no reason to believe that a show meant for black audiences would have any better access to quality writing than any other show. Don't like it? Change the fucking channel! The Simpsons are probably airing somewhere.

Kwanza, ebonics or any other things black people do that get under your skin.

Just like everyone else, some of us black people may do things we do that you don't. Why the fuck do care?! Are you aware that this country is made up of different people with different experiences and culture? Please learn to respect diversity. Baring that, shut the fuck up. Don't like kwanza don't participate.


Happy New Year

[Sue Duhnym]

Merry Kwanza.

You want to join the other Dopers at my home on Superbowl Sunday? We're having buffalo wings.

::ducking and running::

BTW, you're really invited, since you're a Bay Area Doper too!

[Stuffy]

Hi Sue, I've really got to visit MPSIMS more often, got a cite?

[Sue Duhnym]

Sure. It's long and convoluted, I hijacked it midway through, it spawned a pit thread, but all the info is in there.

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=49974

I think we're going to have a pretty good showing (and maybe even a petty fight between Zenster and Obfusciatrist :D ) but it should be a good time.

[yosemite]

Originally posted by stuffinb


Jesse Jackson, Louis Farrakan et.al...

These people, like most Blacks are individuals, who speak/write or whatever of their own accord, for their own reasons. We did not elect them to speak for us, and they do not represent every Black person in America.

I figured as much.

Affirmative Action

You may find this hard to believe, but not every black person, and I'd venture to say very few acheived their jobs, education or what have you through this program. A lot of us have student loans and/or worked our way through college. A lot of us have acheived success the same way most of you do....we worked for it goddamnit. Please get over it.

Please understand, I am a clueless white person. I have assumed that most/many black people worked their way though college like everyone else. I figured my brother-in-law (who is black) did. But I confess, I don't understand the whole affirmative action thing. What is your opinion of it, personally? I have heard both sides of this issue, and am torn. You say that very few black people acheived their jobs/education through this program. So, what is its purpose? How much does it help? What is its impact? Do we need it? What will happen if it were eleminated?

Forgive me if that's a hijack. Maybe you don't want to delve into affirmative action on this thread. But I saw an opportunity to ask a question - so I'm going for it!

The WB, or black shows

I'm sorry you don't find these shows amusing.

I don't care. I have been known to watch just about anything, if it's funny. There are whole genres of TV shows that suck, and I avoid them. I never saw this as a color issue, I saw this as an issue of sucky vs. non-sucky.

Kwanza, ebonics or any other things black people do that get under your skin.

Just like everyone else, some of us black people may do things we do that you don't. Why the fuck do care?!

I don't. I figure, there are plenty of holidays to go around, the more the merrier. As long as everyone is positive and happy happy happy, I don't give a shit. I do get irritated by hostile/angry/chip-on-their-shoulder attitudes, with anyone, or anything. I don't see that with Kwanza. Maybe I'm not paying attention. Maybe I don't care. Enjoy whatever you wish, with my blessing.


[/quote]Happy New Year
[/QUOTE]

Happy New Year to you too!

[zen101]

I would agree with nearly all of that with the minor exception of comments relating to "Ebonics". I actually don't give too much of a hoot about it myself, but I do feel that every taxpayer has at least the right to give a damn about Ebonics for the simple reason that is is or has been proposed as a learning course in public schools. Since our public schools are funded by taxpayer dollars then without regard to color, if you pay taxes and have an interest in eductation then Ebonics is a valid area of concern. I think in a time period when arts programs and athletics programs are being cut, for a school to seriously consider Ebonics as something worthy of funding many people have a legitimate concern.

Pretty much everything else you covered has nothing to do with how my money is spent by my government so I don't give a damn about any of it, and as I said I don't really care much about Ebonics but I do think that If I wanted to give a damn about it I have the right to do so. In that one small thing your assertation is out of line IMHO. Otherwise I'm in agreement with you.

[tomndebb]

I actually don't give too much of a hoot about it myself, but I do feel that every taxpayer has at least the right to give a damn about Ebonics for the simple reason that is is or has been proposed as a learning course in public schools.
Is there actually a school district that anyone can name that has proposed teaching children in Ebonics? The big hoopla about the Oakland School District was that they wanted to teach the teachers enough Ebonics to understand the kids. I am not aware of any place where they have proposed teaching Ebonics to the students.

[Badtz Maru]

I think it's a waste of money to train teachers to understand Ebonics. What kind of dimwit can't understand Ebonics? The only problem I have ever had understanding some black people had nothing to do with different grammar or different pronunciations (like 'axe' for 'ask') but with very slurred pronunciation you sometimes hear (my old drug dealer said 'I ain't got none' in one syllable). I don't think any kind of training would help with that.

My understanding of the Oakland Ebonics thing was not that it was an attempt to make the teachers better able to understand inner city youths, but to teach them to accept differences between English and Ebonics, i.e. not correcting the use of 'done' as past perfect form of 'do' or using 'what' instead of 'that'.

[SPOOFE]

Jesse Jackson, Louis Farrakan et.al...

Nobody expects them to be an across-the-board representative of any demographic, just like I'd be offended if anyone thought Dubya or Gore represented me.

However, they make themselves vocal and thrust themselves into the limelight. So when it comes down to talking about about a specific issue, their names often come up as "authority figures" (hopefully, people smile when they say that).

Affirmative Action

Not every white person will condemn the black race simply because a bunch of people like this idea. Some of us are capable of recognizing a skilled, talented, accomplished, and intelligent person, no matter what levels of skin pigment they may have.

The WB, or black shows

I reserve the right to point out what I think to be garbage, whether it be white, black, or plaid with purple spots. And if it gets more hype than a three-headed camel, my derision of it increases. Forgive me, I'm a meritocratist.

Kwanza, ebonics or any other things black people do that get under your skin.

I just get pissed off when people overlook the Winter Solstice in favor of these silly, secular holidays like Christmas and/or Kwanza :D

[Stuffy]

yosemitebabe wrote:

Please understand, I am a clueless white person. I have assumed that most/many black people worked their way though college like everyone else. I figured my brother-in-law (who is black) did. But I confess, I don't understand the whole affirmative action thing. What is your opinion of it, personally? I have heard both sides of this issue, and am torn. You say that very few black people acheived their jobs/education through this program. So, what is its purpose? How much does it help? What is its impact? Do we need it? What will happen if it were eleminated?

Forgive me if that's a hijack. Maybe you don't want to delve into affirmative action on this thread. But I saw an opportunity to ask a question - so I'm going for it!

I'll do my best: Affirmative Action programs are applied in areas in which there has been proven under-representation by certain groups. (race or gender). Under such programs outreach programs may be used or in some cases hiring practices monitored. In the area of government contracting, set-asides (typically 10% of department spending or sub-contractring goals applied to prime contractors) may be issued to minority and disadvantaged (typically women-owned, though lately Vietnam vets have also been encouraged to use this method)companies. YRMV as state and local ordinances differ greatly.

Zen101 please see next response.

tomndebb & Batz Maru You're both right.

spoofe wrote:

I reserve the right to point out what I think to be garbage, whether it be white, black, or plaid with purple spots. And if it gets more hype than a three-headed camel, my derision of it increases. Forgive me, I'm a meritocratist.

Perfectly understandable.

What I was objecting to was a trend I've noticed lately of people picking these stupid little issues to establish differences between us, or giving those differences more weight than they deserve. If we picked apart to neighbors in a similar fashion, the fact that both might be the same color would be lost in all the differences you'd find between the two. My goal was to show the ludicrousness (is that a word?) of such microexamination.

[Needs2know]

Hi Stuffy...Happy Holidays....me again...

Problem is people do use these things to justify their irritation with our "differences". When you look at it rationally it makes no sense. It is exactly what I have always accused it of being...racism/bigotry. And not very well disguised in my view. What difference should it make to anyone how many silly sitcoms with blacks the WB puts on? Why should Affirmative Action get under so many people skins? Every opponent has some sad story of someone they knew that blamed AA for their missing out on an opportunity. Very few of them actually fact based or even rational. Now even blacks and women are falling in line with this rethoric. Why? Well because the good old boy white society is finally winning this cold war. You know when you hear something enough it starts to sound more and more plausible. And besides what woman or person of color wants to work, live or go to school in an environment that snickers behind their back? How much harder have we had to work to overcome the stigma that blacks and women are intellectually inferior. Well guess what? Looks like they've almost won.

I know there are a lot of people on this board that don't like my opinion on this subject. They think I'm self righteous. Too bad, I don't give a shit. The only people I ever hear bellyaching in person about these issues are racist. (It's easy on this board to maintain you aren't when you don't have to look someone in the eye and say such stupid shit.) They can't stand it because they have to look at black people on television. They hate it that black people can move into their neighborhood. They don't like their children going to school with black people. They think that Affirmative Action is nothing more than a "dummy down" program. (Not that it wouldn't help a few of them out if it truely were, they could use such a program.)

I guess you are getting tired of hearing lame shit such as this, I can only fully begin to imagine what you must think. It frustrates the shit out of me too.

Needs2know

[UrbanChic]

stuffinb, not only did you beat me to the Pit with your post, but you were a lot nicer than I would have been. Kudos to you!

Now all we need is a post from The Ryan and this thread will be the highlight of my day!

[Stuffy]

Originally posted by Needs2know
Hi Stuffy...Happy Holidays....me again...

Hey Needs, ... are you stalking me? ;)

Problem is people do use these things to justify their irritation with our "differences". When you look at it rationally it makes no sense. It is exactly what I have always accused it of being...racism/bigotry. And not very well disguised in my view. What difference should it make to anyone how many silly sitcoms with blacks the WB puts on?

I've been trying to be open minded, though believe me I'm under no illusion that in some cases it is flat out racism.

Why should Affirmative Action get under so many people skins? Every opponent has some sad story of someone they knew that blamed AA for their missing out on an opportunity. Very few of them actually fact based or even rational. Now even blacks and women are falling in line with this rethoric. Why? Well because the good old boy white society is finally winning this cold war. You know when you hear something enough it starts to sound more and more plausible.


You know, I'd never myself given much thought to these programs. Main reason: It's never had an effect on my life until my current job. However as part of my work, I was involved in getting my company classifed as "disadvantaged" (we're a woman-owned aerospace firm), it's really helped open some doors for our company for contracting with the military.

Anyhow, I think the current malaise in the minority community over the program is probably similar to my own reason for not thinking about it. It doesn't affect them.

And besides what woman or person of color wants to work, live or go to school in an environment that snickers behind their back? How much harder have we had to work to overcome the stigma that blacks and women are intellectually inferior. Well guess what? Looks like they've almost won.

I've read some reports on the effects of Affirmative Action on the individual level at places where it was implemented. If you're interested let me know, I'll dig them up.

I know there are a lot of people on this board that don't like my opinion on this subject. They think I'm self righteous. Too bad, I don't give a shit. The only people I ever hear bellyaching in person about these issues are racist. (It's easy on this board to maintain you aren't when you don't have to look someone in the eye and say such stupid shit.)


I admire your tenacity. And I think you're right on the anonymity, a few posters spring to mind immediately.


I guess you are getting tired of hearing lame shit such as this, I can only fully begin to imagine what you must think. It frustrates the shit out of me too.

Needs2know

That was the reason for the post. I got really tired of reading the shit. You may have noticed I tend not to get involved in them unless someone says something incredibly stupid, forcing my hands so to speak. It's not much different IRL, but IRL it's actually easier to ignore. I like this board, and I'm sticking around. Just wanted to get my opinion on this out there.

Happy New Year!

[Dogzilla]

Originally posted by Badtz Maru
(my old drug dealer said 'I ain't got none' in one syllable). I don't think any kind of training would help with that.

I have a very considerate drug dealer. If he says something and I respond with a blank look, he'll immediately translate into "white honky" for me, so we can continue our conversation.

Tolerance and understanding is such a warm fuzzy...

[Biggirl]

That such an enlightened bunch as the bunch on SDMB can be so blind to their own prejudges. I am surprised sometimes when someone who I once believed to be levelheaded starts with the "you people" speech. Although, to be fair, it's not everyone. I don't even think it's the majority.

And the most scary are the ones who say things are as good as they are ever going to get. If only black people would just act like I do, everything will be just fine.

[Zenster]

Hey stuff, great OP. I hope that you can make it to the Superbowl party.

[Stuffy]

Hi Juanita what can I say, I'm normally a cool headed guy, my rants are much better in person.

Biggirl I almost fell out of my chair :D

Hey zenster, Sue gave me a cite, but I didn't get a chance to read it yet. Can you or someone else e-mail me the particulars, Not so HotMail seems to be working this week.

[Needs2know]

HA! Stuffy...Biggirl I didn't get around to reading the thread on "Kwanza" until after I posted here. Why does such things still stun me? First of all it wouldn't even cross my mind to consider Kwanza exclusionist. Of course around here some people feel that way about Mr. Luther King Day. Rather than go into the whole "freedom for everyone" speech I just say..."You do get off on that day don't you? It's a NATIONAL holiday. So you get a day off. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.....of course it also conflicts with Robert E. Lee/Stonewall Jackson day or Confederate History day or some such shit I never celebrated or even heard of until it did.

Oh well...no I'm not stalking you Stuffy...it would never cross my mind to mess around with a married man living an entire continent away. Not much future in a relationship like that. Besides you've got two kids, boys at that, I've got two kids, two kids are enough, four is way to many. One boy is enough for me anyway. Mine thinks he's emperor of the known universe, or at least man of the house. He's rotten to the core.

Toodles
Needs2know

[SterlingNorth]

Well, in Virginia, N2K, up until last year they called it Lee/Jackson/King Day. It's now separate holidays, but some folks are upset that Lee/Jackson lost a prominent holiday.

Translation: They don't get the day off on the Confederate Generals' holiday anymore.

Don't bother calling, I'll be in hell until January 6th.

[Needs2know]

I was born at Richmond Memorial Hospital, August 12, 1958. Except for about three years that we lived in Indiana from 1st through 3rd grade I've lived in Virginia all of my life. Either right in the Richmond city limits or in Chesterfield County. Up until recently I have never even heard of Lee/Jackson day. Or if I had I'd never given it much thought. I never got to stay home from school for this day, unless it happened to coincide with a "teacher's work day". Sure I know who Lee is, Mom has a picture of him hanging in her dining room like he's family or something. My middle name is Lee not Leigh. I know who Jackson is too. He's famous for the battle at Fredricksburg, my sister earned her Historical Preservation degree there at Mary Washington College. (And the fact that he was killed by his own men.) But I contend that all these years that I've lived in Virginia until a day was declared for Martin Luther King I never celebrated or even heard of Lee/Jackson day. Now perhaps it is an event for the folks that are into reinactments, which has gained popularity in recent years. But I still maintain that the average Virginia citizen didn't give a hairy rat's ass about Lee/Jackson day until a few folks decided to take issue with MLK day. How could I have lived here all my life, had the Civil War permeate my very exsistance everyday and never have heard of this day? Why? Because it was a Virginia holiday that was long forgotten until some black civil rights leader happened to come along and remind the good old boys that it was even on the calendar. Peddle it elsewhere.

Needs2know

[Stuffy]

Originally posted by Needs2know
HA! Stuffy...Biggirl I didn't get around to reading the thread on "Kwanza" until after I posted here. Why does such things still stun me? First of all it wouldn't even cross my mind to consider Kwanza exclusionist. Of course around here some people feel that way about Mr. Luther King Day. Rather than go into the whole "freedom for everyone" speech I just say..."You do get off on that day don't you? It's a NATIONAL holiday. So you get a day off. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.....of course it also conflicts with Robert E. Lee/Stonewall Jackson day or Confederate History day or some such shit I never celebrated or even heard of until it did.

I have a Grandfather who's a Pastor of a church in Newport News, Va, he mentioned that holiday when I was there earlier this year. Until then I'd never heard of it. Ironically, Ive never worked anywhere where MLK Day was a paid day off, though each of my bosses gave me the option of taking it off in lieu of a floater.

[/quote]Oh well...no I'm not stalking you Stuffy...it would never cross my mind to mess around with a married man living an entire continent away. Not much future in a relationship like that. Besides you've got two kids, boys at that, I've got two kids, two kids are enough, four is way to many. One boy is enough for me anyway. Mine thinks he's emperor of the known universe, or at least man of the house. He's rotten to the core.

Toodles
Needs2know [/QUOTE]

HAH...That sounds like my son Chris. He's the youngest, but he has the older two securely under his thumb. He practically runs the place. My Mom says he's like me when I was younger. When he's looking at me with a smile and an innocent expression, I know he's up to something. Ain't kids great!

Happy 2001!

[SterlingNorth]

Wow, you must have missed the maybe one protest from a couple of Confederate history groups. Last Year, Gov. Gilmore decided to separate Robert E. Lee/"Stonewall" Jackson/Martin Luther King Jr. Day.
I remember how the NAACP herald this as a good thing. I think the governor was in trouble with the NAACP for flirting with the idea of declaring April Confederate History Month. (Gov. George Allen did it four years earlier.)The only people who heard about the day was my HS history teacher, VDOT, and several banks. "In honor of Lee/Jackson/King Day, we will be closed." There were a few protest by the Daughters of the Confederacy. I saw them myself. I was suprised by how low-key it all was.
Anyway, thought out its existance (until last year) in VA it was Lee/Jackson/King Day.
Lee Jackson Day now occurs the Monday after King Day.

Needs, I'm not surprised you didn't know about LJK day

[Stuffy]

Sterling If you're visiting Detroit, can you find out if Emily's Across the Street is still open? It's a kind of a large Curio store with neat little instrument and whatnots from around the world. It was a block south of Woodward, in the area of Hudson's the last time I was there.

[Needs2know]

Yes Sterling my darling...I had heard of it...yes I know about the idiots in Chesterfield declaring Confederate History month. David Duke came to town. He made a big appearance at the mall down the street from my workplace. Yes, I heard it all, from the controversy over renaming the bridges to the banner on the flood wall. BUT UP UNTIL ALL THIS CONFEDERATE HERITIAGE SHIT AND MLK DAY GOT ALL TANGLED UP YOU NEVER HEARD SHIT ABOUT LEE FUCKING JACKSON DAY! Good enough?

Needs2know

[dropzone]

Originally posted by Needs2know
Up until recently I have never even heard of Lee/Jackson day.... it was a Virginia holiday that was long forgotten until some black civil rights leader happened to come along and remind the good old boys that it was even on the calendar. Peddle it elsewhere.
Charlottesville, VA, 1961-1964: Public schools got Bobby Lee's birthday off, but not Lincoln's. State offices were closed on Lee's day, but not Lincoln's. It was the other way around for my Catholic school and Federal offices.

<Strolls off, singing the Virginia state song, as taught in his grade school, including the faux-Negro dialect>

"Thar's whar I labored so long for ol' Massa,
Day after day in de fields ob yeller corn..."

[IzzyR]

Originally posted by stuffinb
Jesse Jackson, Louis Farrakan et.al...

These people, like most Blacks are individuals, who speak/write or whatever of their own accord, for their own reasons. We did not elect them to speak for us, and they do not represent every Black person in America. Please try to understand that they in no way speak for our entire community, just as we assume that Pat Buchannan and David Duke don't speak for the white community. This is America and everyone has the right to voice their opinions no matter how stupid or racist it may be.Strange thing to say, considering the title of your OP, don't you think?

These people may not speak for you, but they are certainly leaders to the vast majority of the black community, like it or not. Considering the things these people say, this fact can be disconcerting.

[Needs2know]

Well let's see...considering that I didn't start school until 63 and then it was private because we didn't have kindergarten in public schools in VA back then...I don't remember. Do you really or did you look it up? Then I attented 1st grade in Indidana...don't see any reason why the Hoosiers would find it patriotic to celebrate Lee's day. Maybe George Rogers Clark (who was Virginian too) but not Lee.

And exactly what does you missing in school in 1964 have anything to do with this subject or your disgusting, racist reference to "Massa"? Just wanted to throw that in and prove you're one of the assholes I've been talking about. Shove your "Heritage not Hate" sticker up your ass. You don't represent me or my beautiful state. Neither does that fucking dead general that fought on the wrong side of that stupid war.

Needs2know

[dropzone]

Originally posted by Needs2know
1. Maybe George Rogers Clark (who was Virginian too)...

2. ...your disgusting, racist reference to "Massa"? Just wanted to throw that in and prove you're one of the assholes I've been talking about.
1. He grew up about two miles from my house. Yes, I remember it quite clearly. It was pretty jarring for a Northern boy like me.

2. No, those were the official lyrics when I was a kid. Including the faux-slave dialect. Just wanted you to know that the Virginia you were born into was a place with a lot of unresolved issues. Maybe it's different now. Good Lord, I hope so.

[Stuffy]

Strange thing to say, considering the title of your OP, don't you think?

No I don't think it's strange since more than a few posters act as if JJ and the others were given some mandate or elected position to represent us.

These people may not speak for you, but they are certainly leaders to the vast majority of the black community, like it or not. Considering the things these people say, this fact can be disconcerting.

Really, who told you that? I missed that press release. So maybe I should by the same token, believe Duke, Buchanan et al represent you, is that what you're saying?

Like it or not, Jesse Jackson, Louis Farawhatever hold NO elected office. Because you may think they speak for the black community, does not make it so. They work for their pet causes, normally at the invite of some other individual or organization, for publicity. That the media has chosen to annoint him a black leader means absolutely nothing to me.

[gobear]

And exactly what does you missing in school in 1964 have anything to do with this subject or your disgusting, racist reference to "Massa"?

Until quite recently, "Carry Me Back To Ole Virginny" was the official state song.

[dropzone]

Then there is "Maryland, My Maryland," in which the tyrant mentioned is Lincoln! State songs can be fun.

[Needs2know]

Damn! I apologize if I got the reference wrong. You are absolutely right. I do remember some of the words to that song. Believe they were talking about changing it last year. Are you sure they really did? Fat chance I say since we still have so many die hard Confederate romantasists around here. Forgive me if I got carried away and didn't understand your meaning. I get so fed up with all the "Ye Haw Do it for Dixie crap" that sometimes I lose perspective.

Needs2know

[dropzone]

No problem. It's one of those "I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't sung it with my own mouth" sort of things. But, boy-o-boy, just TRY finding those lyrics on the web! The HATE sites don't even have them.

I hate the revisionists, myself, and have booed the recreaters when they marched in the 4th of July parade. They have no business celebrating the independence of MY country. They can't get it through their thick skulls that a) they got whupped, and b) they got whupped BAD. (Yes, some of us Northerners can hold a grudge for 140 years, too!)

[dropzone]

Originally posted by stuffinb

1. Jesse Jackson, Louis Farrakan et.al...
2. Affirmative Action
3. The WB, or black shows
4. Kwanza, ebonics or any other things black people do that get under your skin.

1. & 3. Pretty embarassing, aren't they? Although I like Jesse quite a bit. His mouth just moves faster than his brain sometimes. I can relate to that. And for every moronic "Martin" there is and equally moronic "Suddenly Susan." I guess that's Hollywood's version of affirmative action.

2. Don't know anybody who has officially benefitted from it. That I knew of. OTOH, I have used similar criteria when hiring. I just don't tell people that I am. If my company is showing a tilt in the direction of Middle-Class White Guys (as they usually do) those criteria will tilt the balance in favor of one of two equal candidates. Then I try to hire them both.

4. Always happy to add another holiday. As for so-called Ebonics, what's fun is when somebody comes up way back in the piney hills Down Home and no Chicagoan, white or black, can understand him. Had to do some translating in my time.

[Guinastasia]

But dropzone-don't you know that the South will rise again?
;)

[IzzyR]

Originally posted by stuffinb
Really, who told you that? I missed that press release. So maybe I should by the same token, believe Duke, Buchanan et al represent you, is that what you're saying?When Duke or Buchanan run for president and attract the same level of support among whites that Jackson did among blacks, you may believe this. When Duke or Buchanan make a Million Man March and attract the same level of participation and support from whites as Farakhan did from blacks you may believe this.Like it or not, Jesse Jackson, Louis Farawhatever hold NO elected office. Because you may think they speak for the black community, does not make it so.That is true. And the fact that without holding any elected office they (and you might add Sharpeton) attract so much attention is not a media conspiracy. It is because the have enormous support in the black community.That the media has chosen to annoint him a black leader means absolutely nothing to me.This is true, of course. You personally are under no obligation to accept anyone as your leader, regardless of what anyone else may do. But this idea that Jackson and Farrakhan are media creations with no actual standing in the black community is nonsense.

[Stuffy]

When Duke or Buchanan run for president and attract the same level of support among whites that Jackson did among blacks, you may believe this. When Duke or Buchanan make a Million Man March and attract the same level of participation and support from whites as Farakhan did from blacks you may believe this.

Where's all this support you're talking about? Last time I checked Jesse Jackson doesn't hold any office. Both of those other jackass' mentioned above have held elected office, or at least Duke did.

The Million Man March was about unity among black men, not a cause celebre' of Farawhatever (you may remember news reports of supporters of the march distancing themselves from the ides of the speaker). Even a broken clock is right twice a day you know?

That is true. And the fact that without holding any elected office they (and you might add Sharpeton) attract so much attention is not a media conspiracy. It is because the have enormous support in the black community.

Wrong, they attract enormous attention because of the issues they address, and the media is willing to give them a spotlight. Just because they and their rabbble rousers make the news, that's not indicative of support.

[Biggirl]

IzzyR.
I would never dare to assume who speaks for you. Bush is president, but does the media dare to assume he speaks for you? Gore recieved 51% of the vote and yet does everyone assume he speaks for you?

European Americans don't need spokesmen. They are all assumed to have minds of their own. Yet put a microphone in front of a race-baiting black man (Al Sharpton and L. Farrahkan come to mind) and low and behold. . . The Black People Have Spoken!

So, I'm to believe that you don't think Social Security is a Federal Program. And that you believe in Creationism. And the Texas Rangers are a good sports franchise. Oh of course you don't know what the meaning of "is" is.

Here you have it. 5 people of color have told you that these so-called black spokesmen do not speak for them. Perhaps you can tell us, IzzyR, which of the elected officials speak for all of the white people. That way I can just listen to that one person and know the mind of my white countrymen.

Race relations are not that simple. Get to know a few black people. We are as complex and different as everyone else. Don't generalize. Or, continue to do so and be a putz.

[dropzone]

Originally posted by stuffinb
Last time I checked Jesse Jackson doesn't hold any office.
Actually, quoting the Rainbow PUSH website, "In 1990, in an impressive victory, Reverend Jackson was elected to the post of U.S. Senator from Washington, D.C., a position also known as 'Statehood Senator.' The office was created to advocate for statehood for the District of Columbia, which has a population higher than five states yet has no voting representation in Congress." So, not supporting IzzyB but clarifying things, Rev Jackson does hold elected office, but, as DC's Shadow Senator, does not hold a position with "real" power. His considerable power comes from his credibility with the people and the strength of his personality.

[Stuffy]

I'd never heard of that dropzone, thanks for the info!

[IzzyR]

stuffinbWhere's all this support you're talking about? Last time I checked Jesse Jackson doesn't hold any office. Both of those other jackass' mentioned above have held elected office, or at least Duke did.I am referring to Jesse's 1984 run for president. He has also been thought of as a candidate on other occasions.

I think Duke may have been a state legislator at some time (or at least run for the office). Nothing beyond that.

I am aware that the Million Man March was not a general referendum on Farrakhan's ideas. But the fact that he was able to get so much support for his call to anything is an indicator of his leadership position in the black community. to test this out, I suggest that you call for your own march. You will notice that no one will come. This is because you, though you seem to be a fine person, are not a leader of the stature of Farrakhan. People follow leaders.

biggirl

It would appear from your post that you are unfamiliar with the distinction between all and many. You might wish to acquaint yourself with this crucial difference. It comes up all the time.....

[Needs2know]

I personally don't see a lot wrong with what Jesse Jackson does. I certainly don't see anything wrong with someone who might support him or his views on certain issues. I'd imagine that some people support him all the time and some choose to support him when they agree. Some don't support him at all because they don't appreciate his tactics. Yeah, he's over the top most of the time. Is he anti-white, I don't even think that, he's anti-bigoted or blinders wearing white. I know he pisses people off. But it's come to my attention that almost any outspoken black whether they are a little bit on the radical side or not will piss off a certain segment of white guys. Lets face it the black community needs to keep the pot stirred up. Colin Powell just isn't doing it for them. He panders to much to the good old boy whitey guys that allowed him to get where he is today. And they won't even let him have his view on AA without criticizing him. They expect him to roll over a play white completely. So barring that someone comes along with the charisma, the intellegence, and genuine class that MLK had Jessie Jackson and those similar to him is the best the black community has got right now. You see black people have not enjoyed the freedoms they've gained in the last 30 years by asking nicely. If they had kept asking nicely they wouldn't have been anywhere. They will always have to shout and demand and rally for what they get. Just reading the bullshit on these boards is proof of that.

Needs2know

[gobear]

Colin Powell just isn't doing it for them. He panders to much to the good old boy whitey guys that allowed him to get where he is today.

N2K, you are a racist. Do you really believe Colin Powell was handed his position, not because of his merits, but because he "panders"? The mind boggles. I hate to break it to you, but there exist Republican black americans who believe in conservative values. If you think Powell is backward on race issues, I suggest you read his autobiography and discover the racism and discrimination he had to face during his career in the military.

Many white Americans admire Colin Powell precisely because
he has achieved much in his life without handouts or demanding anything but his due of respect as a human being and an American.

[Needs2know]

No, I do not believe he was handed his position of course not. What I do believe is that without Affirmative Action iniciatives in the government and the men and women who went before him Colin Powell would never have had the opportunity to be a general. And I think he knows that. I'm not criticizing Colin Powell I'm criticizing members of his party and others that don't like to hear his stand on AA. I'm glad that he sticks to his guns on this issue. I hope he never caves in. But if you think for one minute that he or any other black leader in this country would have gotten where they are today without standing up and screaming, marching, and demanding their rights then you're wrong. After all aren't gays beginning to do exactly that themselves. Don't the anti-gay and even some who profess not be be anti-gay dislike hearing about your problems? Of course they do. Sometimes I have trouble getting my main point across in writing.

What I'm saying is that in some ways the black community needs a guy like Jessie Jackson, over the top and all. He brings attention to issues whether you like his style or not. Then of course men like Colin Powell balance out the rest. Too bad though that leaders like MLK seem to only come along once in a lifetime.

Needs2know

[UrbanChic]

[qThese people may not speak for you, but they are certainly leaders to the vast majority of the black community, like it or not. Considering the things these people say, this fact can be disconcerting.

Did you come up with the bullshit all by your lil' ole' bitty self or did you get some help? Who the fuck are you to say that Jesse Jackson, Louis Farrakan and Al Sharpton speak for the 'vast majority of the Black community'?

No one speaks for the vast majority of the Black community just as no one speaks for the vast majority of the White, Asian, Jewish or other community, you dumb-ass.

biggirl

It would appear from your post that you are unfamiliar with the distinction between all and many. You might wish to acquaint yourself with this crucial difference. It comes up all the time.....

Yes, there is a distinction between the word all and the word many. But when you make blanket statements about representatives for the 'vast majority of the Black community' you come off sounding mighty asinine.

[Needs2know]

Oh yeah and you can all me anything you like. It no longer bothers me being called a bigot because usually the people that do so haven't gotten in touch with their own feelings on issues of race relations, homosexuality and our other differences. I know where I stand. I'm fully aware of the privledges I enjoy in this country simply because my skin is light. Of course I'm also fully aware of the hinderances and inequities that I must endure because I do not possess a penis.

Needs2know

[Needs2know]

Oh yeah and I also forgot...9% of the African Americans that went to the polls voted Republican. I just don't find that figure very overwhelming. And yes, panders was a very bad choice of words. So sue me.

Needs2know

[gobear]

But if you think for one minute that he or any other black leader in this country would have gotten where they are today without standing up and screaming, marching, and demanding their rights then you're wrong.

Again, I recommend that you read Colin Powell's autobiography. In it, he describes the hard work he put in and the goals he has achieved despite the prejudice he faced in his life. I called you a bigot because you wrote, " What I do believe is that without Affirmative Action initiatives in the government and the men and women who went before him Colin Powell would never have had the opportunity to be a general." That sounds to me like you're saying he was handed his job because of his race and not because he deserved it.

Martin Luther King never screamed. He lived a life of quiet dignity, giving soul-stirring speeches and insisting on the recongnition of rights due black Americans as citizens and human beings.


It no longer bothers me being called a bigot because usually
the people that do so haven't gotten in touch with their own feelings on issues of race relations, homosexuality and our other differences.

Let's see, I'm gay, so I'm sure I'm in touch with my feelings on homosexuality, and I work for a black-owned comapny and my boss is black, with whom I've talked about these very issues, so I'm pretty sure I'm OK there. I call you a bigot because you are a liberal racist. You're one of those people who overcompensate, who try too hard to be nice to black people because of past injustices.

I like people on their merits and dislike them because they're jerks. I feel no need to identify with black Americans or to say, "I understand your struggle, brother." That's condescending and racist. I treat the differences between races as I do the differences in hair color; that is
being a blonde or a redhead is an interesting feature, but it has nothing to do with your qualities as a human being. To quote Divine in Pink Flamingos, "There are two kinds of people in the world: my kind and assholes." (That's a joke, by the way.)

Is there discrimination in this country? Absolutely. Racism, sexism, and homophobia do exist. The way to fight them is to be the kind of person you would admire yourself, and eventually through the force of dignity, pride, and honor, you will win out over hatred.

Black people voted Democrat for the same reason I did; a)Bush is a moron, and b) despite his window dressing at the convention, Bush's speaking at Bob Jones University and refusal to speak out against the Rebel flag flying over the South Carolina statehouse spoke louder than trotting out Condi Rice.

[Stuffy]

I am aware that the Million Man March was not a general referendum on Farrakhan's ideas. But the fact that he was able to get so much support for his call to anything is an indicator of his leadership position in the black community. to test this out, I suggest that you call for your own march. You will notice that no one will come. This is because you, though you seem to be a fine person, are not a leader of the stature of Farrakhan. People follow leaders.

Farrakhan is a spoken for the Nation of Islam or some, such. He's also been under fire from that organization. Because he called for a march for unity and people thought that was a great idea, does not in itself make him a leader. It means for a change, he was right. You may have noticed that nearly every time he made an ass backwards comment on race relation other leaders such as the NAACP immediately denounced him. In fact, as I remember, there was a tiff just for that reason, when organizing the MM march.

Oh and FYI, I can an have indeed led rallys. Most recently here in Oakland, me and a couple of other neighbors I know called a Stop the Violence rally here. (I mentioned this in another post btw) and while I didn't get a million marchers, we got enough to make the news.


BTW, more FYI Duke was a member of the Louisiana House of Representatives (at that time he was a member of NAAWP, an organization he founded when it became known he was a member/leader of the Klan)

[Stuffy]

goboy While I agree with most of your post, I wanted to bring something to your attention. The Military does have a Quasi-affirmative Action program that has been in effect since at least the 70's. While it's also based on merits (i.e., you have to be qualified to move up) the Services do in fact try to promote diversity in it's upper ranks. For this reason, before you go to the promotion boards, you must submit a photo in addition to your service record for consideration.

[Biggirl]

Originally posted by IzzyR

biggirl

It would appear from your post that you are unfamiliar with the distinction between all and many. You might wish to acquaint yourself with this crucial difference. It comes up all the time.....

And it would appear from your post that you are unfamiliar with the distinction between spokesperson, elected official and media-whore. You might wish to acquaint yourself with these crucial differences. It comes up all the time, you putz.

[Needs2know]

I haven't checked on Colin Powell because he is a conservative and a Republican and I'm just not either. But I guess since he's a new appointee I might look into his background a little more.

And I have no idea how my statement about AA iniciatives diminishes the accomplishments of present day minorities. Don't you think that is stretching it a little. No, I never suggested that Colin Powell or anyone similar to him didn't work for what they've achieved. What I did say is that I believe he just might be fully aware of what his life might have been like had the Equal Rights ammendment never been passed or the government not taken the first iniciative to enact Affirmative Action goals. You see, I am one of the few people that actually believes that many qualified minorities were held back and are still being held back in our society by a transparent "white wall".

There you go calling me names again. A liberal racists I am. Wow that's at least a little better than being just a simple racist. I don't see how it is that it makes me racist to realize, actually see first hand how whites resent blacks, jews, gays and other minorities. Years ago I worked for the federal government. I was young, early twenties. My boss nominated me to a part time position as an EEO counselor. I was selected. I got a really good look at that glass ceiling. And yeah, buddy I can relate a little. I'm a woman. Statistically I still don't make the same amount of money as a man for doing the same work. You may be gay but you are still a man. It's only been about 10 or so years since my local government decided it wasn't an OK thing for my SO to kick my ass. Yeah, I do relate because women and children, black and white are most often the victims of economic and societal oppression not just in this country but thoughout the world. But that's about as far as it goes. And my convictions about this are not based on some liberal racist bullshit tenent. They are based on seeing my friends and co-workers passed over for better jobs. Of seeing them treated differently when we go out to lunch. Of being stared at myself because I'm the only white face at the lunch counter.

I know my heart and I don't need you or anyone else to tell me where I stand. I may not be as educated or as eloquent as you but at least I'm not afraid to say what I think is right. Assume all you want.

Needs2know

[gobear]

While it's also based on merits (i.e., you have to be qualified to move up,), the Services do in fact try to promote diversity in their upper ranks.

Promoting diversity is a laudable goal. The point of AA is to give non-white qualified workers an equal shot at promotion.

[Needs2know]

No shit Sherlock...you're singing to the choir here.

[gobear]

No shit Sherlock...you're singing to the choir here

That was a response to StuffinB's post, not yours.


What I did say is that I believe he just might be fully aware of what his life might have been like had the Equal Rights Amendment never been passed.

Umm, the ERA had to do with gender discrimination, and it went down to defeat in 1982. Are you talking about the 13th (forbidding slavery), 14th (assuring citizenship for ex-slaves), and the 15th (assuring voting rights) Amendments to the Constitution? Or are you talking about the Voting Act of 1965, which ended poll taxes and literacy tests?


I don't see how it is that it makes me racist to realize, actually see first hand how whites resent blacks, jews, gays and other minorities.

A. Jews are white, and I'm gay and I'm white (well, half anyway), so I don't get your meaning.
B. No, what makes you racist is your repeated insistence that blacks need the help of whites to succeed.


What I do believe is that withoutAffirmative Action iniciatives in the government and the men and women who went before him Colin Powell would never have had the opportunity to be a general.



Colin Powell just isn't doing it for them. He panders to much to the good old boy whitey guys that allowed him to get where he is today


There are other posts that are older than 30 days I can't access. My point is that when act as if blacks need special help to succeed, you are being just as racist as when you discriminate against them. Black Americans do not need your help or your guidance. When you are treating people differently on the base of race, that makes you a racist. That's not namecalling, that is a statement of fact.

In addition, stop playing victim. If you're not being paid an equal amount to a man in your company in the same position, find a better job. Work hard and if you're being discriminated against, find redress from management or sue their pants off.
I mean, look at Oprah. Born a poor, black woman, was she got handed her wealth by white people, or did she work her ass off? Look at my mom. Widowed at 21 with no education and three kids, then remarried to a drunk and abusive monster, she survived, raised her children, now four in number, got her BS, then her nursing degree. she didn't sit on her ass and cry about how tough life is, she tackled the obstacles and overcame them.

Stop playing victim. Oh, and don't post any more self-pitying "I may not be as educated or as eloquent as you"; if it bothers you, go to a library or a community college in your area and get educated.

[Stuffy]

hijack

As if we needed a nice shiny example of racism on this board, follow the link (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=52931)

/hijack

[gobear]

Oh, my. Beeruser should stop using beer. What a jerk.

[IzzyR]

Originally posted by stuffinb
Because he called for a march for unity and people thought that was a great idea, does not in itself make him a leader. It means for a change, he was right. You may have noticed that nearly every time he made an ass backwards comment on race relation other leaders such as the NAACP immediately denounced him. In fact, as I remember, there was a tiff just for that reason, when organizing the MM march.[/B]The fact that millions of people pay attention when a person speaks makes him a leader. The fact that issues that he raises are for this reason dwelt opon by others makes him a leader. Farrakhan is an important black leader in this country. Which is not to say that there are not other important black leaders and organizations which disagree with some of his actions and statements. But he does have a large following.

I should clarify, upon further reflection, that the idea of a person being a leader does not mean that he has been "authorized" to be a "spokesman" for his constituency, or that every word that comes out of his mouth reflects the officially sanctioned view of his constituency. In responding to this notion, you may have been confronting a strawman. Rather the idea is that the fact that these people see this person as their leader reflects the fact that on the whole, this person's actions and opinions are looked at as being positive ones. As such, one might reasonably infer that for the majority of black people in this country the activities and opinions of Jesse Jackson are viewed in a positive light, as are, to a lesser extent, those of Farrakhan and Sharpeton.

BigGirl and JaunitaTech

Your words of wisdom have been duly noted.

;j

[TVeblen]

A few very rambling observations...(prepare for the thread to fall over and die):

1. PC idiocies are just as damaging as outright bigotry; they're the same critter in different clothing. They make a huge point of differences. A well-meaning professor (who was a breath of fresh air, taken in all) always carefully asked the few female students for their viewpoint. After a while it became a joke; not a funny joke, but it got us by, e.g. "well, as a female..." WTF?! The issues were human! The niceness of being recognized couldn't disguise the insult. The goal wasn't to be singled out, just to be included on merit.
(Not comparing experiences, just illustrating, btw.)

2. One of the flat-out finest, hardworking, honorable, moral human beings of my acquaintance recently went to DC to interview for a job. Very irrelevantly, said friend is a black male. He was late for the interview because no cabbie would pick him up..
Just based on the color of his skin; nothing more.
Statistics and debates become ludicrous. This was a great, stupid, offensive, insulting wrong.
Period. Full stop.

3. You bet I'm a supporter of affirmative action. It guarentees a chance, nothing more. I'm not a Christian--too ecclectic--but do embrace the great truth behind the prayer, "Thank you, Lord, for blessings I've done nothing to deserve."
My dad, an unrepentant bigot, didn't finish high school; the Depression hit and the school closed. He had to turn down a scholarship to Vanderbilt in engineering, but found a stable job working for AT&T.
None of those things would have happened if his skin had been black.
I'm proud of my dad, and I loved him. But that doesn't change that every detail of my youthful life hinged on our skin color. And everything I've built since is based on it as well, too.
This isn't "liberal guilt". It's commonsense recognition of facts. (BTW, my peeve w/ "conservatives" is they too often blandly accept privileges as birthrights and degrade principles along the way. Conservatism isn't--or shouldn't be--hubris.)

Sorry, I really rambled all over the landscape on this one.

Veb

[Prosser]

Just to touch on the Ebonics subject for a moment. I believe the problem some people (including myself) have with ebonics is that it smelled of a pork barrell scam. By classifying a portion of students in the Oakland School District as "English second language" students (the primary language would be Ebonics), the School District would become eligible for an increase in its federal education grant. The issue of teaching teachers Ebonics was (IMHO) FAR less important than the funding issue. My question regarding the Ebonics issue is whether the administration in the Oakland School District gave a single crap about the education of those Ebonics-speaking children. My albeit pessimistic opinion is that the School District was far more concerned about the bottom line $.

I would like everyone to note that this does not mean I don't think there is some validity to the theory of Ebonics. The theory may very well help certain cases of speech impediments and other like afflictions within the African American community. However, I truly question the motives of the Oakland School District.

[schief2]

stuffinb, I agree with virtually every point you've made so far, and have been impressed by your skill at supporting your arguments.

But I think you've been just a bit hasty in dismissing the clout that leaders like Jesse Jackson have within the black community (and, I will admit, I am speaking as someone who is not a member of that community).

From an africana.com article, Blacks in American Electoral Politics (http://www.africana.com/tt_661.htm):

Black mobilization during the Reagan years was greatly facilitated by the Reverend Jesse Jackson's two bids for the presidency in 1984 and in 1988. The Jackson campaigns gave "voice" to black dissatisfaction with the rightward drift of the Democratic Party. Millions of blacks supported both his bids. His campaigns were structured as a bargaining vehicle for black Democratic voters.

I've been unable to find hard numbers on the support Jesse Jackson earned nationally among blacks during his two bids, but there is this (http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/policamp/insider.htm) from the Atlantic Monthly:

As in most of this year's [1988] Democratic primaries, the Illinois vote was deeply polarized along racial lines. Jackson carried more than 90 percent of the black vote but only seven percent of the white vote in his home state.

Jesse Jackson may not be speaking for you, but it sure seems like he's speaking for somebody...make that a lot of somebodies.