Justice League vs. Watchmen - Who would win?

[joebuck20]

I just saw Watchmen last night and it got me thinking about this.
On the one hand most members of the Justice League have genuine superpowers.
On the other hand the Watchmen have a godlike being capable of vaporizing matter just by looking at it. They also have a couple of people who appear to be mentally unstable and aren't afraid to fight dirty.
I'd be inclined to give this one to the Watchmen simply because of Dr. Manhattan.
What are your thoughts?

[DrFidelius]

Justice League, because they are an actual team who, you know, work together.

I cannot picture Jon giving enough of a damn to do anything during a spandex smack-down.

[Lobsang]

I saw watchmen recently. I've never seen Justice League (what is it?) but 'Awesome' is a superpower and the Watchmen have lots of different kinds of it.

[BMalion]

Which Justice League/

Oh well, they'd win anyway, but they'd know they'd been in a fight.

[DrFidelius]

Which Justice League/

Oh well, they'd win anyway, but they'd know they'd been in a fight.

Detroit.

[silenus]

On the other hand the Watchmen have a godlike being capable of vaporizing matter just by looking at it.

Batman is prepared for that.

Besides, Green Lantern can also be that powerful, given the will. JLA in the 2nd round - knockout.

[Munch]

I've never seen Justice League (what is it?)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justice_league

Typically it's Superman, Wonderwoman, Batman, Flash, Green Lantern and Martian Manhunter, with a bunch of other guys thrown in to sell tie-in comics.

[mobo85]

Rorshach, the Comedian, and Dr. Manhattan kill people on numerous occasions. I doubt the Justice League would do that (although Rorshach probably wouldn't kill any members of the Justice League, as he only seems to kill people whom he believes deserve it). However, with the exception of Dr. Manhattan, the Watchmen (or Minutemen, if you're going by the comic book) have no superpowers. So basically, we have a group of unstable mass murderers going up against a group of just heroes with superpowers. Frankly, I think this battle is going to end the same way Watchmen did- with a good portion of a major city destroyed.

[Tanbarkie]

If (and this is a huge if) you can convince Dr. Manhattan that defeating the Justice League is important enough to warrant his attention, the Watchmen win. Instantly.

Otherwise, Rorschach et al. are ground into a fine paste by Superman alone.

[RealityChuck]

It depends on which version of Justice League, but the Justice Society clearly mops the floor with the Minutemen. The Spectre is involved, so Dr. Manhattan is toast. The Spectre starts with Dr. Manhattan's powers and adds from there. And Dr. Fate would be available if the Spectre isn't.

[Whack-a-Mole]

It depends on which version of Justice League, but the Justice Society clearly mops the floor with the Minutemen. The Spectre is involved, so Dr. Manhattan is toast. The Spectre starts with Dr. Manhattan's powers and adds from there. And Dr. Fate would be available if the Spectre isn't.

I wonder if this is a case of an immovable object meeting an unstoppable force. While Dr. Manhattan is not portrayed as omnipotent he does seem effectively immortal.

Saint of Killers would easily waste The Spectre though (different group altogether I know). :p

More interesting would be a cage fight between Batman and Rorschach. Especially if you strip Batman of gizmos and just rely on hand-to-hand fighting skills.

[Captain Carrot]

More interesting would be a cage fight between Batman and Rorschach. Especially if you strip Batman of gizmos and just rely on hand-to-hand fighting skills.

Batman would destroy him. Bruce isn't above fighting dirty, if need be, and he's in better shape than Rorschach. Walter's no slouch, but he doesn't take as good care of himself as Wayne does.

[Johnny Q]

Who's better prepared? Batman or Ozymandias?

[Captain Carrot]

Batman. Ozymandias just does his Xanatos Gambit, but Batman always knows how to beat every foe and obstacle.

[Whack-a-Mole]

Batman would destroy him. Bruce isn't above fighting dirty, if need be, and he's in better shape than Rorschach. Walter's no slouch, but he doesn't take as good care of himself as Wayne does.

Yeah but Rorschach has that psycho edge. Come to think of it Batman has a bit of psycho edge to him too but Rorschach really embraces it which I think lends him some "crazy energy" (for lack of a better term).

I agree Batman would probably win. He is better trained overall I believe and in about as peak physical condition as a human can be.

Would still be fun to see.

[Ludovic]

Xanatos Gambit
a good band name!

[JThunder]

Yeah but Rorschach has that psycho edge.Yeah. It's a shame that Batman doesn't usually go up against psychos.

[Whack-a-Mole]

Yeah. It's a shame that Batman doesn't usually go up against psychos.

:rolleyes:

Sure he goes up against psychos all the time but usually being psycho is his opponent's Achilles heel. Their psychoness makes them the bad guy but also inconsistent and able to be manipulated which Batman uses to his advantage.

Rorschach channels his psycho into his fighting. It clearly propels him and enables him. Rather than being a drawback it is essential to his success thus he derives benefit from it while fighting.

[Kamino Neko]

On the other hand the Watchmen have a godlike being capable of vaporizing matter just by looking at it.

Of which the Justice League have several.

Ignoring the fact that that description is an entirely valid description of Superman, the Martian Manhunter, Power Girl, and several other members, and going with those whose powers are vaguely equivalent to Doc's, they have:

Zatanna - mystic, capable of doing pretty much anything she can articulate (backwards).
Dr Fate - several of them, also mystics, also capable of doing pretty much anything.
Firestorm - power set very similar to Doc's - a little more limited, but not significantly - almost limitless control over matter and energy, minor pre-/post-cognition, depending who's in the merge, potentially genius intellect, etc.
Various lesser mystics whose limits I'm not sure of (Jason Blood, Silver Sorceress).

Auxiliary members include:

Resurrection Man - literally cannot stay dead, potentially has any imaginable power - has, at least once, ended up with powers similar to Doc's.
Multi-Man (counted as Auxiliary, as he was a member of the JLAntarctica, which was pretty much a joke) - same as RM.
Sargon the Sorcerer - yet another mystic.

Not all of them are currently alive - the Silver Sorceress is dead, the current Sargon and Dr Fate have never joined the League (though Zatanna can contact both), and only one of the two Firestorms are still around. Still, any incarnation of the League is liable to have at least one person who can screw reality pretty damn good.

[RealityChuck]

I wonder if this is a case of an immovable object meeting an unstoppable force. While Dr. Manhattan is not portrayed as omnipotent he does seem effectively immortal.The Spectre can just send him to heaven, if he wishes. The Spectre is omnipotent.

Hell, Johnny Thunder's Thunderbolt could make sure there never was a Dr. Manhattan (and has been shown to do the equivalent).

[Captain Carrot]

I was going to say, Firestorm's currently dead.
a good band name! Not my idea (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/XanatosGambit)

[Alessan]

It isn't a contest.

The Justice League are winners. The Watchmen are losers. That's all there is to it.

[pravnik]

Wouldn't the Justice League's having Captain Atom cancel out Dr. Manhattan?

[Kamino Neko]

Doc Manhattan's ultimately based on Captain Atom, but he was the most changed of the Charlton characters (aside from Nightshade, whose equivalent was really a Phantom Lady/Black Canary clone).

Atom's powers are nowhere near Manhattan's level - as I said, it's Firestorm who's the DCU character with the closest power set, though the number of high powered sorcerers make that moot.

[Love Rhombus]

Look at it this way: any one of the Justice Leaguers (Green Arrow aside) can likely take out all of the Watchmen (Manhattan aside). Then you're left with at least 5 superpowered folks (the usual Superman, Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, Green Lantern and 2 others you can pick) against an apathetic demi-god. Assuming Manhatten gets riled up he could do a lot of damage, but the odds of him getting personally involved are pretty low.

[KneadToKnow]

at least 5 superpowered folks (the usual Superman, Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, Green Lantern and 2 others you can pick)

For extremely large values of 5, no doubt.

[Kal]

Assuming the Watchmen team is from their Crimebusters heyday, prior to Manhattan discovering the joys of apathy:

All but Doc. Manhattan go down, taking a couple of Leaguers with 'em.

Manhattan, enraged at the death of Silk Spectre II, divides into 5,000,000 Doc. Manhattans and (glowing blue) dick slaps the JL to a pulp.

[Bryan Ekers]

Manhattan, enraged at the death of Silk Spectre II...
Why would he be? Structurally, there's no discernable difference between a live body and a dead body.

[robertliguori]

Why would he be? Structurally, there's no discernable difference between a live body and a dead body.

It's harder to boink the dead one, and that's one of the few things Manhattan still cares about.

That being said, Manhattan isn't quite an irresistible force (he didn't have the capacity to destroy all Soviet nukes in the event of a mass launch, or so he claimed).

[foolsguinea]

This one is mostly easy. Nite-Owl is a poor man's Blue Beetle. Except for Dr Manhattan, the rest of the Watchmen characters aren't even superpowered (nor have the tech to catch up)--and they're not even a team!

That said, Dr Manhattan may be more powerful than the JL put together. Unless they bring J'onn J'onzz &/or Zatanna. But since Dr Manhattan is deeply mentally ill, a fatalist depressive who cares about very little, it's hard to say if he'd bother. I guess he would if the writer said he would.

[foolsguinea]

Detroit.Oh, Detroit? Detroit League would win. Jon could see Gypsy even while she's invisible & several minutes before she arrived; this would distract him.

Then J'onn would show up & do to Jon what he did to Despero. Then Vixen & Steel would pwn the rest of them.

[foolsguinea]

More interesting would be a cage fight between Batman and Rorschach. Especially if you strip Batman of gizmos and just rely on hand-to-hand fighting skills.Bats has 7 stone on Rorschach
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Batman_(Bruce_Wayne)
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Rorschach

I think Bruce would win that fight.

[foolsguinea]

And the JL Europe was once led by Captain Atom, the model for Dr Manhattan (though admittedly Nathaniel Adam is less over the top than Jon is).

OK, Tengu covered that.For extremely large values of 5, no doubt.We'll bring in the Wonder Twins--They fight as one! (Yes, I know they're technically Super Friends/Extreme Justice/Young Justice, depending on the version.)

[Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor]

Martian Manhunter is a telepath.

I'm betting he can take Manhattan.

Let the Flash & Green Arrow mop up the rest like mud off the garage floor.

[Johnny Q]

If he can be arsed, Manhattan paints the walls with the Justice League. But only if he sees that he did it in the future. One of the advantages of squaring off against a determinist.

[Johnny Q]

[missed the edit....continuing the thought]

This is after all, a man who can tell you how things are going to go down and still be genuinely surprised when they do.

[Cornelius Tuggerson]

Watchmen would eventually be toast, but I suspect Ozzy will somehow trick Superman into a cryptonite barrel at the bottom of the sea before getting blown away, he is sneaky like that.

[Little Nemo]

We all know what happens. Superman punchs Dr Manhattan, irradiates Kansas, and retires in guilt for a couple of decades.

[KneadToKnow]

We all know what happens. Superman punchs Dr Manhattan, irradiates Kansas, and retires in guilt for a couple of decades.

Poor Captain Marvel ... :(

[The Other Waldo Pepper]

Oh, Detroit? Detroit League would win. Jon could see Gypsy even while she's invisible & several minutes before she arrived; this would distract him.

Then J'onn would show up...

Jon's the precognitive guy who can make fire, right?

And, AFAICT, Dan is the guy who can drop Gypsy and Vibe and Steel and Vixen and Aquaman, provided they're at their 1985 levels and he's working that sonic weaponry from behind all that armor plate with his goggles on; he's like a low-budget Iron Man, but that's still pretty good. (And anyone who isn't bulletproof needs to be faster than Eddie Blake or else take a gunshot to the eye.)

[Jonathan Chance]

I have, sadly, thought about this sort of thing way too much and I've come to the conclusion that Dr. Manhattan is rivaled, in all of comicdom, only by the Phoenix.

But, thankfully, Moore realized the same thing Byrne did: having a truly omnipotent character destroys all attempt at story. They took different approaches. Byrne had Jean Grey commit suicide to deal with the power...

Moore had Osterman slowly give away his humanity. But not because he's omnipotent...because he's bored. Remember, anything that will every happen to him, even his reactions, are known by him already. Nothing will ever surprise him and catch his true interest outside of his own thoughts and creativity. He no longer cares about defending the United States and humanity and such because they hold no surprises for him. It's possible, using quantum theory, that not only does he know everything that he'll ever do but everything that will ever occur anywhere and anytime.

Yes, the mystics might challenge him. But only if he allow(s/ed) it to occur. This is a being who, like the Phoenix, could simply decide that not only do you not exist but that you NEVER existed. He can also take the limitation on that power, having a single point of view, and eliminate it by becoming as many omnipotent beings as he feels is necessary.

In short, The Justice League, all of them, are gone in the first blink of the battle. In combat, which we never see Manhattan in, his powers are such that he can engage the enemy prior to the battle even being considered. He's like The Midnighter but with the ability to end it literally before it begins.

All the talk of him being able to 'disintegrate' his opponents really only displays his lack of thought to the project. And with that limitation on his thinking (he lacks imagination or interest) he still finished Vietnam in a week.

Moore set out to build the ultimate superpowered being and he did so. Then he had to get him offstage for the post-Watchmen era.

Hell, how does one even defeat him? He was reduced to constituent subatomic particles and came back in seconds.

Even if Fate sent him to heaven what would happen? Remember that quote "God exists...and he's American." That's the level of power we're seeing there.

Again, I think about this way too much.

[Little Nemo]

Jon claimed he stayed on Earth because of his connection with Laurie. But that obviously isn't true: he ended up leaving her behind to go to another galaxy. If she was the reason keeping him of Earth, he would have stayed another forty or fifty years until she died.

I think the truth is he stayed to see what it was Adrian was doing. Adrian's tachyon generator made it impossible for Jon to foresee what it was Adrian was doing. It was the only thing in his future he didn't know and he left Earth right after his curiousity was satisified.

And Jon allowed it to happen. He could foresee the aftermath and must have realized Adrian was doing something on the level of what he did. He could have stopped Adrian at any time. But he allowed Adrian to procede because he wanted to have one event in his life that he didn't know in advance.

[Marley23]

Jon claimed he stayed on Earth because of his connection with Laurie. But that obviously isn't true: he ended up leaving her behind to go to another galaxy. If she was the reason keeping him of Earth, he would have stayed another forty or fifty years until she died.
The way he puts it, she's his last connection to humanity. He loses that connection because they're not together at the end of the story - she's left him for Nite Owl II.
And Jon allowed it to happen. He could foresee the aftermath and must have realized Adrian was doing something on the level of what he did.
He allowed a lot of other things to happen, but not that. His ability to see the future is blocked and he says so himself. There's nothing to indicate he allowed it to happen.

[Love Rhombus]

Manhattan, enraged at the death of Silk Spectre II, divides into 5,000,000 Doc. Manhattans and (glowing blue) dick slaps the JL to a pulp.

The JLA doesn't kill. They might knock out his hump-buddy, but she wouldn't die. I agree that Manhatten is rivaled only by the Spectre and Phoenix (and the Beyonder but no one really wants to remember him, me included) but why should he care about the fight at all? He doesn't really like any of his "teammates". In fact, assuming he was previously unaware of the DCU, he might be intrigued by actual aliens, the GL ring and whatever the Speed Force is, at least momentarily.

And I can only imagine the type of psychosexual trauma it would inflict on the Comedian to have Wonder Woman block his bullets and then beat him him. It would be fascinating.

[JThunder]

Hurm.

[Little Nemo]

He allowed a lot of other things to happen, but not that. His ability to see the future is blocked and he says so himself. There's nothing to indicate he allowed it to happen.My understanding is that only Jon's ability to see the events at Karnak during the climactic confrontation was blocked. The tachyon shielding only concealed the time and location where they were being generated not future events that would occur afterwards.

So Jon couldn't specifically see what Adrian would say and do at Karnak but he could see the aftermath - he knew that NYC would be attacked, that there would be a global alliance formed, and he would leave Earth. He was like a person who had the ability to watch the future new broadcasts from December 8, 1941 or November 23, 1963 or September 12, 2001.

Jon could have stopped Adrian easily at any time but allowed him to go ahead. This was foreshadowed by the scene where he stood and watched the Comedian kill the woman in Vietnam (and the flashback scene where Janie says he did nothing to prevent Kennedy's assassination).

[Bosstone]

My bet is that Jon and J'onn would find each other to be an interesting person to talk to, even in the middle of a fight. I can see them retiring to Mars to chat over tea.

[KneadToKnow]

Jon could have stopped Adrian easily at any time but allowed him to go ahead. This was foreshadowed by the scene where he stood and watched the Comedian kill the woman in Vietnam (and the flashback scene where Janie says he did nothing to prevent Kennedy's assassination).

But that calls into question the exact nature of what Jon sees when he sees the future. If he sees what has already happened, how can he presuppose to alter it? I didn't get the impression that Jon sees all the infinite possibilities of the way things can turn out with the option to influence which outcome occurs, but that he sees the events which actually do happen.

How do you change that?

[Marley23]

My understanding is that only Jon's ability to see the events at Karnak during the climactic confrontation was blocked. The tachyon shielding only concealed the time and location where they were being generated not future events that would occur afterwards.
Like KneadtoKnow says, we don't really know how he sees the future or in what way he becomes aware of it. He may be capable of knowing everything that will happen in the future, but we don't know if or how he pays attention to it.

My assumption was that he's not omniscient. I saw him as someone with enormous intelligence but a more or less human attention span - unless he's dividing his being, he's focused on only a few things at a time. Given how little attention he was paying to people at that point, as compared to subatomic particles, I think it's reasonable to think he was not paying attention to that part of the future and wasn't aware of the attack (he only says he saw strees full of bodies, but didn't know when it was happening) or its consequences (he knew he would kill someone, but not who or why).

[Little Nemo]

It was made clear that Jon was not omniscient. He only knew the things he personally experienced not everything there was to be known. But essentially all of us know what we experience. The main difference between Jon and normal people was that he knew everything he was ever going to experience even before he had actually experienced it (with the exception of the events at Karnak). He already knew everything that would ever happen to him and how he would react to it.

[mswas]

Assuming Dr. Tomorrow cares the Watchmen. Because Dr. Tomorrow doesn't even have to look at matter to vaporize it.

[Captain Carrot]

Do we actually know that Dr. Manhattan does?

[CandidGamera]

I have, sadly, thought about this sort of thing way too much and I've come to the conclusion that Dr. Manhattan is rivaled, in all of comicdom, only by the Phoenix.

But, thankfully, Moore realized the same thing Byrne did: having a truly omnipotent character destroys all attempt at story. They took different approaches. Byrne had Jean Grey commit suicide to deal with the power...

Moore had Osterman slowly give away his humanity. But not because he's omnipotent...because he's bored. Remember, anything that will every happen to him, even his reactions, are known by him already. Nothing will ever surprise him and catch his true interest outside of his own thoughts and creativity. He no longer cares about defending the United States and humanity and such because they hold no surprises for him. It's possible, using quantum theory, that not only does he know everything that he'll ever do but everything that will ever occur anywhere and anytime.

Yes, the mystics might challenge him. But only if he allow(s/ed) it to occur. This is a being who, like the Phoenix, could simply decide that not only do you not exist but that you NEVER existed. He can also take the limitation on that power, having a single point of view, and eliminate it by becoming as many omnipotent beings as he feels is necessary.

In short, The Justice League, all of them, are gone in the first blink of the battle. In combat, which we never see Manhattan in, his powers are such that he can engage the enemy prior to the battle even being considered. He's like The Midnighter but with the ability to end it literally before it begins.

All the talk of him being able to 'disintegrate' his opponents really only displays his lack of thought to the project. And with that limitation on his thinking (he lacks imagination or interest) he still finished Vietnam in a week.

Moore set out to build the ultimate superpowered being and he did so. Then he had to get him offstage for the post-Watchmen era.

Hell, how does one even defeat him? He was reduced to constituent subatomic particles and came back in seconds.

Even if Fate sent him to heaven what would happen? Remember that quote "God exists...and he's American." That's the level of power we're seeing there.

Again, I think about this way too much.

I disagree. Jon can't change the past. He can't even change the future. He's stuck doing exactly what he, himself, knows is going to happen. He's less the Spectre or the Phoenix, and more the Phantom Stranger. Phenomenal cosmic power, can't do anything important.

The Phantom Stranger who can't die, and happens to show up whenever the Justice League needs him..

[foolsguinea]

Hey, if that acquaintance of ours is in the cards, then the whole balance shifts.

I would maintain that our friend does at least have & recognize free will, unlike poor depressed Jon Osterman. And that might make all the difference in the world. Imagine Jon getting a patented Phantom Stranger talking-to about personal responsibility.

[Marley23]

I disagree. Jon can't change the past. He can't even change the future. He's stuck doing exactly what he, himself, knows is going to happen.
I've always wondered how much of that is the truth, and how much of it is a rationalization from somebody who was already detached and passive before he lost his humanity. Because on Mars, he changes his mind and decides human life has value. He never gives any evidence that he knows the conclusion to his argument with, and earlier in the book, he never betrays any evidence that his feelings on that subject are going to change. Time is different for him but we don't really know he is stuck. He believes he's stuck, but he believed he was stuck when his father was pushing him into being a physicist, too.

[GoodOmens]

Batman. Ozymandias just does his Xanatos Gambit, but Batman always knows how to beat every foe and obstacle.

Batman would plan on Ozymandius catching the bullet and would coat it with quick acting neurotoxin absorbed through the skin.

[The Other Waldo Pepper]

Batman would plan on Ozymandius

Oh, I'd figure every Justice Leaguer will be addressed in the anticipatory teleconference call Batman puts out before the first punch gets thrown; each hero will have a place to go and a highly specialized task to perform, as part of a plan that's guaranteed to foil Doc's powers and Ozzy's schemes.

And by "Batman" I mean "Ozymandias Dressed Up Like Batman".

[Raguleader]

OK, Tengu covered that.We'll bring in the Wonder Twins--They fight as one! (Yes, I know they're technically Super Friends/Extreme Justice/Young Justice, depending on the version.)

Form of... ASS WHUPING!

And of course, any predictions get tossed in the can if the Joker turns up decides to fuck with everybody. Isn't one of his powers basically that he's so unhinged that he's aware of the lack of a fourth wall?:D

[E-Sabbath]

Of course, you can _really_ screw with Dr. Manhattan by hitting his _other_ one weakness. Time travel. The JLA has a number of people capable of it, including, say, Hourman (the android.)

[Malacandra]

Form of... ASS WHUPING!

And of course, any predictions get tossed in the can if the Joker turns up decides to fuck with everybody. Isn't one of his powers basically that he's so unhinged that he's aware of the lack of a fourth wall?:D

Along with, IIRC, the She-Hulk and Loki. :)

[SmashTheState]

If (and this is a huge if) you can convince Dr. Manhattan that defeating the Justice League is important enough to warrant his attention, the Watchmen win. Instantly.

There are any number of Justice League members who are a match for Dr. Manhattan in "reality-altering," including, but not limited to: Zatanna, Dr. Fate, the Spectre, and the various Green Lanterns (plus Guy with Sinestro's ring). Since Dr. Manhattan is really a stand-in for Captain Atom anyway (all the Watchmen are analogues of the Charlton Comics characters DC acquired: Rorschach = Question, Owlman = Blue Beetle, etc.), we know Captain Atom is a match for him (Captain Atom being JLE, so he qualifies). Firestorm could probably handle Dr. Manhattan from a quantum standpoint (and would squish Dr. Manhattan like a bug after becoming an elemental). There's just no way the Watchmen stand a chance. It's not the same power scale.

[sohvan]

I'd bet on an eternal tie. Earth loses by getting destroyed in the process along with half of the solar system.