Pink Floyd, Before and After Syd

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

I've recently reacquainted myself with some Floyd music. Like a long lost lover, I've been awash in the sonic familiarity of the Floyd's music as of late.

I have a question. Is there anyone that likes Pink Floyd's earlier stuff with Syd Barret more than their later stuff without him?

Honestly, I think a lot of the Barret-inspired music can border on unlistenable. Some of the stuff, like "Careful With That Axe, Eugene", "One Of These Days..." and other songs definetely foreshadow the type of band the Floyd were turning into.

But some of Syd's stuff, like "Vegetable Man", Scream Thy Last Scream" are just terrible to me.

I don't see how anyone could like that stuff better or even equal to the material on "Dark Side Of The Moon" and everything that came after.

Is it just me? Are there more Syd tunes that I need to check out?

[Crotalus]

When I read your thread title, before I opened the thread, the first word that came into my mind concerning Pink Floyd with Syd was "unlistenable".

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

When I read your thread title, before I opened the thread, the first word that came into my mind concerning Pink Floyd with Syd was "unlistenable".

As I'm also re-reading the book "Saucerful Of Secrets", I'm trying to juxtapose all the glowing commentary about what a genius Syd was, etc against actually listening to some of the music, and frankly, I just can't agree with the book's conclusion. Other than that Syd took a lot of LSD, of course.

[Ludovic]

But Vegetable Man and Scream Thy Last Scream were not released on a studio album. It would be like judging Epic Era Floyd from the Pros and Cons of Hitchhiking, which Roger wanted to do as a Floyd album but they did The Wall instead.

That said, while I like them both, I do like Epic Era Floyd more than Syd Era, but Syd beats out Post-Syd/Pre Darkside and Post-breakup Floyd.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

But Vegetable Man and Scream Thy Last Scream were not released on a studio album. It would be like judging Epic Era Floyd from the Pros and Cons of Hitchhiking, which Roger wanted to do as a Floyd album but they did The Wall instead.

That said, while I like them both, I do like Epic Era Floyd more than Syd Era, but Syd beats out Post-Syd/Pre Darkside and Post-breakup Floyd.

Can you give me an example of a really good Syd Barret Floyd tune (that isn't an instrumental) for me to listen to?

[RealityChuck]

I think their Syd Barrett stuff, while good, was not as good as what they started doing just after he left. It's on the par with the weaker Roger Waters material like Dark Side of the Moon. Good, but not great.

[Celyn]

Well, I like the Syd stuff, although it's a long time since I've listened to any. Dear me, must get a working record player one day. :D However, we might be looking at it from different angles - I mainly like the whimsical- silliness-albeit-with-serious-twinges of some of his stuff. Nothing like later Pink Floyd of course. I think you are taking a more serious and intellecutal view of it than I. :)

Bikes! Mouse called Gerald! Gnomes! And the harrowing tale of the Effervescing Elephant! How can you not like? Yeah, very very not later Pink Floyd. :D

In fact, I was once buying either a very early Floyd or perhaps a solo Syd record in a second-hand place and the nice shopkeeper man , seeing as the other thing I was buying was very mainstream and of the moment, was at pains to point out to me that I would find this one VERY different if I was expecting Pink Floyd and perhaps I would not like it. Sort of sweet of him, really.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

I think their Syd Barrett stuff, while good, was not as good as what they started doing just after he left. It's on the par with the weaker Roger Waters material like Dark Side of the Moon. Good, but not great.

You think Dark Side Of The Moon is "weaker Roger Waters material?

:confused:

[An Arky]

I think that if you're looking at Syd-era Floyd through DSOTM-colored glasses, you might be looking for a sort of sweeping classicism that wasn't necessarily what was going on at the time of Syd-era Floyd. And they were still young, didn't have David Gilmour, etc.

Someone who sees the White Album or Sgt. Peppers as the greatest Beatles albums might look at Meet The Beatles the same way.

[Crotalus]

As I'm also re-reading the book "Saucerful Of Secrets", I'm trying to juxtapose all the glowing commentary about what a genius Syd was, etc against actually listening to some of the music, and frankly, I just can't agree with the book's conclusion. Other than that Syd took a lot of LSD, of course.I went through the exact process with the same book. Syd left the group when I was 14, before I became interested in Floyd, so I really wasn't familiar with his music. I think Meddle was the first album I heard. A couple of years ago I read Saucerful of Secrets, and was moved by the book's descriptions of Syd's music to give it a listen. I was really disappointed.

On preview: RealityChuck: Really?!?

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

I think that if you're looking at Syd-era Floyd through DSOTM-colored glasses, you might be looking for a sort of sweeping classicism that wasn't necessarily what was going on at the time of Syd-era Floyd. And they were still young, didn't have David Gilmour, etc.

Someone who sees the White Album or Sgt. Peppers as the greatest Beatles albums might look at Meet The Beatles the same way.

You're probably right, but what I'm not totally getting is all the accolades that were thrown around in reference to Syd at the time he was "at the height of his powers". I just don't get it.

[Biffy the Elephant Shrew]

Honestly, I think a lot of the Barret-inspired music can border on unlistenable. Some of the stuff, like "Careful With That Axe, Eugene", "One Of These Days..." and other songs definetely foreshadow the type of band the Floyd were turning into.

Those songs are not from the Syd Barrett era, which basically lasted for only one album (plus a couple of leftovers on the second album).

I've always said that there was Syd's Floyd, and later Roger's Floyd, and finally David's Floyd; but my own favorite material has always been the stuff they did post-Syd but pre-Dark Side, when they were Floyd's Floyd--a band of equals.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

Those songs are not from the Syd Barrett era, which basically lasted for only one album (plus a couple of leftovers on the second album).

I've always said that there was Syd's Floyd, and later Roger's Floyd, and finally David's Floyd; but my own favorite material has always been the stuff they did post-Syd but pre-Dark Side, when they were Floyd's Floyd--a band of equals.

Interesting. Dark Side Of The Moon is almost universally accepted as their pinnacle achievement, although I'm partial to the paranoia of The Wall, myself.

[RealityChuck]

You think Dark Side Of The Moon is "weaker Roger Waters material?Depends on what you compare it to. Among music in general of the time, it's among many good albums. Among Pink Floyd, it's definitely one of their less interesting efforts.

I bought Dark Side the week is was released. My first thought after listening to it was, "Well, Pink Floyd has sold out and gone commercial." But it is no where near their best music (both Meddle and Wish You Were Here are far superior, and Atom Heart Mother and Ummagumma are also greater albums. Dark Side is about the same level as The Division Bell, though less musically interesting. It's sort of "Pink Floyd for Dummies." (The Wall is marginally better, but still not their best work by any means.

I agree wholeheartedly with Biffy.

[Ichbin Dubist]

Can you give me an example of a really good Syd Barret Floyd tune (that isn't an instrumental) for me to listen to?

As no one has answered this question -- the first two Floyd singles, "Arnold Layne" and "See Emily Play," are probably his strongest pop tunes. I like "Lucifer Sam," too. Most of his other songs -- "Bike," "Apples and Oranges," "Jugband Blues," and both of his solo records -- are kind of the sound of a mind coming apart and it's a little disconcerting. He could write great melodies and has flashes of odd humor but most of his songs tend to be trapped in the loop of their own eccentricity. Of his solo stuff, try "Baby Lemonade" or "Octopus" -- catchy, odd tunes that can't quite seem to find their way.

As far as holding Syd above all else, the people who love, say, Daniel Johnston or Alexander Spence's Oar or Wild Man Fischer are probably not mostly the same people who bought millions of copies of Dark Side of the Moon.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

As no one has answered this question -- the first two Floyd singles, "Arnold Layne" and "See Emily Play," are probably his strongest pop tunes. I like "Lucifer Sam," too. Most of his other songs -- "Bike," "Apples and Oranges," "Jugband Blues," and both of his solo records -- are kind of the sound of a mind coming apart and it's a little disconcerting. He could write great melodies and has flashes of odd humor but most of his songs tend to be trapped in the loop of their own eccentricity. Of his solo stuff, try "Baby Lemonade" or "Octopus" -- catchy, odd tunes that can't quite seem to find their way.

As far as holding Syd above all else, the people who love, say, Daniel Johnston or Alexander Spence's Oar or Wild Man Fischer are probably not mostly the same people who bought millions of copies of Dark Side of the Moon.

Thanks. I've heard "Arnold Layne" and "See Emily Play", but I want to check out these others.

[Ludovic]

Most of his other songs -- "Bike," "Apples and Oranges," "Jugband Blues," and both of his solo records -- are kind of the sound of a mind coming apart and it's a little disconcerting.

I agree, if you want light psychedelia that's disconcerting, thought provoking, yet harmless at the same time, you can't go wrong with those, plus let's roll another one Candy and a Currant Bun. (Jugband Blues isn't exactly harmless).

[Mllz]

Can you give me an example of a really good Syd Barret Floyd tune (that isn't an instrumental) for me to listen to?

I absolutely love the Piper at the Gates of Dawn album, and--at least according to allmusic.com--nearly every track was written by Barrett at least in part, with most written by him entirely. As others have stated, it's very different stylistically than the post-Barrett albums, but for my money no less brilliant.

Some of my faves on that album from the ones attributed solely to Barrett:

Matilda Mother
Scarecrow
Lucifer Sam
Chapter 24


Likewise, See Emily Play is among my very favorite songs of theirs.

His songwriting is quite pop-based, using simple structures and melodies, and yet doesn't really sound like anything else going on at the time (especially since it's offset by the darker sounds and unusual arrangements that the rest of the band brings to the material).

As Ichbin Dubist notes, there is a sense of a mind coming apart in much of his songwriting. Perhaps that's part of the appeal for me...? I get the same sense from the aforementioned Oar by Skip Spence, and it's the quirky departures from otherwise straightforward pop songwriting that highlight the brilliance. I can totally get why it's off-putting to many fans of Floyd's later work... there's no particular reason why someone who likes one era should be interested in the others.

For my part, I like it all--for different reasons--right up until The Wall (which always seemed kinda lacking, songwriting-wise).

[cjepson]

I'm another who thinks "Lucifer Sam" kicks ass. I also like "Matilda Mother", "Astronomy Domine", and "Scarecrow"... another favorite of mine is "Flaming".

But it's understandable that a lot of people would be left cold by this stuff. It's very quirky, odd, and I guess dated. People who like epic era Floyd would probably not have too much trouble grasping "Lucifer Sam", "Matilda Mother" and "Astronomy Domine", but "Scarecrow" and "Flaming" are another thing entirely. Very fey British psychedelia.

I don't know that I like Syd-era Floyd better than what came after. They're just different. The Syd stuff was groundbreaking, experimental, and uneven. Same, perhaps, could be said for the several albums that came after. Then they began to settle into an increasingly comfortable groove.

[HoboStew]

It took me a while, but I actually found a song on Piper that I actively LIKE, as opposed to merely appreciating from a musical historical perspective: Flaming (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6A9iPFF5Yrs)

cjepson just barely beat me to it...

[FluffyBob]

I think the brilliance of Syd Barrett that is often lauded is more to do with his lyrical abilities and willingness to go outside of musical convention; rather than his listen-ability. I find his lyrics very poetic and quirky, quite playful and funny, contrasted against often haunting musical choices.

The offerings of Waters and Gilmore (I cant really distinguish what Wright's contributions were) are very different; much more accessible for the most part; though Waters screechy angst can be unpleasant. They were very talented and produced some fantastic music.

I really enjoy some of Barretts solo stuff; Late Night, Terrapin, and If it's in You (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k62ihqr4oUU&feature=related) in particular is amazing.

Maybe Barretts genius is hyped, the tragedy of his personal life tends to overpower his actual musical contributions with a lot of 'what if's.

[mswas]

Interesting. Dark Side Of The Moon is almost universally accepted as their pinnacle achievement, although I'm partial to the paranoia of The Wall, myself.

Dark Side is definitely one of my least favorite Floyd works, but I wouldn't call it 'weak', it's just a bit commercial.

I am more into their epic songs like Set the Controls for the Heart of the Sun, Echoes and other tracks like that. Be Careful With that Axe Eugene is my favorite Pink Floyd song.

That being said, I think that Syd's real contribution to Pink Floyd is his influence on Roger Waters. Isn't "The Wall" largely about Syd Barret?

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

Dark Side is definitely one of my least favorite Floyd works, but I wouldn't call it 'weak', it's just a bit commercial.

I am more into their epic songs like Set the Controls for the Heart of the Sun, Echoes and other tracks like that. Be Careful With that Axe Eugene is my favorite Pink Floyd song.

That being said, I think that Syd's real contribution to Pink Floyd is his influence on Roger Waters. Isn't "The Wall" largely about Syd Barret?

I thought it was "Wish You Were Here" that was mostly about Syd. "Shine On You Crazy Diamond", the title track, etc.

Interesting take on DSOTM, too. I never felt that songs like "Breathe" or "Time" were all that commercial (at least, not to me).

[HoboStew]

Yeah, WYWH is the tribute to Syd.

[HoboStew]

I bought Dark Side the week is was released. My first thought after listening to it was, "Well, Pink Floyd has sold out and gone commercial." But it is no where near their best music (both Meddle and Wish You Were Here are far superior, and Atom Heart Mother and Ummagumma are also greater albums. Dark Side is about the same level as The Division Bell, though less musically interesting. It's sort of "Pink Floyd for Dummies." (The Wall is marginally better, but still not their best work by any means.Ummagumma > Dark Side? Dark Side == Division Bell? We clearly are living in parallel universes.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

I think that one of the things that distinguishes the era of Floyd albums from Dark Side through The Wall (and even The Final Cut, to a degree) is the continuity of all the records.

I realize that they are conceptual in nature (particularly DSOTM and The Wall), but even outside of those the music so seamlessly flows from one song to the next.

There's also very little unevenness (no shitty songs) like in their earlier work (and in their later stuff after, or starting with, The Final Cut).

Pink Floyd's "sweet spot" era has records that quite literally you can just put on and let them play all the way through. No "Skip that song, it sucks" going on.

[Marley23]

Yeah, WYWH is the tribute to Syd.
Wish You Were Here is the tribute to Barrett, but I always figured Roger Waters was preoccupied with mental illness as a result of what happened to his former bandmate. He wrote about it over and over.

I'm not a Pink Floyd fan, but I've heard some of the Syd and post-Syd stuff, and the stuff he wrote... well, it's better than Incense and Peppermints, but it feels about that dated.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

I'm not a Pink Floyd fan

That's it, send for the straightjacket and have Marley taken away.

Time for some Clockwork Orange-style reconditioning for you!

[amanset]

I'm another who thinks "Lucifer Sam" kicks ass. I also like "Matilda Mother", "Astronomy Domine", and "Scarecrow"... another favorite of mine is "Flaming".


Astronomy Domine is probably my favourite Barrett-era track but, to be honest, on record it is simply "ok". The Piper version is a bit too rigid for me. The Ummagumma one is a vast improvement but, compared to bootlegs from the period, is quite cut down.

To be honest, up until Dark Side live versions were vastly, vastly different to the recorded versions. Two excellent examples are Cymbaline and Fat Old Sun. On record they were in the 4-5 minute area, but live they could stretch on for a quarter of an hour, just jamming away.

For me that is Pink Floyd. Four guys on a stage jamming. Unfortunately there seems to be little of the live Barrett-era available, but there are plenty of pre-Dark Side bootlegs that show a vastly different band to the one that comes across on record.

I'm glad to see that I am not the only person that prefers this era. So often in online discussions it seems that way, but here on the Dope we seem to have a much more discerning userbase.

I still may be the only person on Earth whose favourite Floyd album is the soundtrack to More though.

[Biffy the Elephant Shrew]

Astronomy Domine is probably my favourite Barrett-era track but, to be honest, on record it is simply "ok". The Piper version is a bit too rigid for me. The Ummagumma one is a vast improvement but, compared to bootlegs from the period, is quite cut down.

To be honest, up until Dark Side live versions were vastly, vastly different to the recorded versions. Two excellent examples are Cymbaline and Fat Old Sun.

The other thing I've always said about Pink Floyd is that we really, really need a legit, full-length concert album of the period when they were doing songs like those, "Atom Heart Mother," "Green Is the Colour," and especially the fully jammed-out version of "Embryo."

A DVD of the PBS concert wouldn't be unwelcome, either.

[Talon Karrde]

Wish You Were Here is the tribute to Barrett, but I always figured Roger Waters was preoccupied with mental illness as a result of what happened to his former bandmate. He wrote about it over and over.
He left a long shadow over the band. I agree with you. A lot of PF's stuff is partly about Syd Barrett, but not entirely. I think part of it was Roger Waters worried that the same could happen to him and he wasn't even necessarily thinking about Barrett consciously.

I love Syd Barrett and like Pink Floyd better with him than without him, but I've come to like his solo music better than his PF music.
Off of Piper my favorites are probably Astronomy Domine, Lucifer Sam, Flaming.
I also really like Pow R. Toc H. but the album version isn't my favorite. There's a 40 second performance of it at the beginning of this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTfDUyUkVYE&fmt=18) that I think is just brilliant. It helps to watch the video on full screen while you listen.

Also, don't miss Jugband Blues (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiEd3D8uGR8&fmt=18), the only song from their second album that he was involved in and one of my favorite Syd-era floyd songs.

I do think his PF music can be a little aimless for my tastes. I think I prefer his solo stuff for the most part because it leaves out a lot of the jammy parts.
A few of his solo songs that I want to link to:
Octopus (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_6PhexCMow)- This and Baby Lemonade are probably his two most accessible solo songs.
Baby Lemonade (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6Pi2VVTr9M)
Golden Hair (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vfvh8nn_JkM)- I love this one. It shows how great he could be with a simple song. The guitar part is very powerful but there's not a lot to it- he uses a simple melody to a great effect.

Something that's interesting is David Bowie's cover of See Emily Play (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaGBXJmKGAU), which I always thought of as David Bowie performing it in the style of Syd's last PF songs after he had gone off the deep end.

[Snooooopy]

I think Barrett's "Swan Lee (Silas Lang)" is a pretty pleasant song.

[GargoyleWB]

.
To be honest, up until Dark Side live versions were vastly, vastly different to the recorded versions....just jamming away.

It wasn't until I started scrounging for bootlegs (ahh, Napster, how I miss thee) that I gained a love for PF's pre-DSotM music. Simple throw-away singles like Embryo, Fat Old Sun, Point Me at the Sky, Green is the Colour, Cymbaline, turned into some truly amazing epic jam pieces. They clearly lived on the strength of their live performances and, up until around Meddle, it seems that the studio was more of a cursory shortened sampler of what was being done live.

I was always dissappointed with the Ummagumma live recordings, which picked songs that didn't gain much from their studio recordings, when there was a ton of grander live jams to choose from.

[Wakinyan]

I have a question. Is there anyone that likes Pink Floyd's earlier stuff with Syd Barret more than their later stuff without him?

Honestly, I think a lot of the Barret-inspired music can border on unlistenable. Some of the stuff, like "Careful With That Axe, Eugene", "One Of These Days..." and other songs definetely foreshadow the type of band the Floyd were turning into.

But some of Syd's stuff, like "Vegetable Man", Scream Thy Last Scream" are just terrible to me.
I'm not the greatest Pink Floyd fan, but I've probably listened to all their albums (didn't keep track), and I agree with you. My favourite is -- perhaps ironically in this context -- Wish You Were Here, which in my book is one of the greatest albums ever.

[mswas]

Ummagumma > Dark Side? Dark Side == Division Bell? We clearly are living in parallel universes.

I agree the Ummagumma is better than Dark Side, but Dark Side is better than the Division Bell. Division Bell would be a good album for a mediocre band. As it was, it was a crappy album for a great one. I do like the song High Hopes though.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

Here's another aspect that may unfairly bias me towards DSOTM-era FLoyd and later: studio production.

I love really well-engineered studio albums, particularly for the kind of electronic-laden music the Floyd plays. According to the book Saucerful Of Secrets, the Floyd hit the studio to make DSOTM with their first access to a 24-track recording machine. I think this really allowed them to play around a lot and really layer in a lot of the effects they use even more effectively and cleanly than ever before.

Not having listened to some of the suggested Syd-era tracks yet, I'm going to say that I likely will have an automatic bias against some of it just based on cruder production. I suppose another issue is that I encountered the Floyd catalogue almost in reverse since I didn't grow up with them. I bought The Wall when I was nine in 1979 with allowance money and literally burned grooves into the record from listening to it so much. I proceeded to get Wish You Were Here in the 1980's, along with Animals and DSOTM. I had dabbled in stuff like Echoes, some of which I liked, but I never lost the affinity for those four albums above all the other ones.

Momentary Lapse Of Reason was the last Pink Floyd recording I purchased and liked, even if it isn't my favorite. I also saw them in concert in 1987 at the former Capitol Center in Washington DC. My friends and I had just seen Roger Waters on his Radio KAOS tour a couple weeks before that. Waters didn't sell out even one show, whereas Floyd sold out all four of theirs.

[mswas]

That's sort of sad, and also a little weird considering Roger Waters was the backbone of Pink Floyd.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

That's sort of sad, and also a little weird considering Roger Waters was the backbone of Pink Floyd.

You know, I used to really think so too. Waters was "the voice" behind Floyd, and from everything I've read, was the ambitious driving force behind the band after Syd was ousted.

But I think David Gilmour was equally influential, especially from the musicianship angle. The guy is a really instinctive player, perfect for their music.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

He left a long shadow over the band. I agree with you. A lot of PF's stuff is partly about Syd Barrett, but not entirely. I think part of it was Roger Waters worried that the same could happen to him and he wasn't even necessarily thinking about Barrett consciously.

I love Syd Barrett and like Pink Floyd better with him than without him, but I've come to like his solo music better than his PF music.
Off of Piper my favorites are probably Astronomy Domine, Lucifer Sam, Flaming.
I also really like Pow R. Toc H. but the album version isn't my favorite. There's a 40 second performance of it at the beginning of this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTfDUyUkVYE&fmt=18) that I think is just brilliant. It helps to watch the video on full screen while you listen.

Also, don't miss Jugband Blues (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiEd3D8uGR8&fmt=18), the only song from their second album that he was involved in and one of my favorite Syd-era floyd songs.

I do think his PF music can be a little aimless for my tastes. I think I prefer his solo stuff for the most part because it leaves out a lot of the jammy parts.
A few of his solo songs that I want to link to:
Octopus (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_6PhexCMow)- This and Baby Lemonade are probably his two most accessible solo songs.
Baby Lemonade (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6Pi2VVTr9M)
Golden Hair (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vfvh8nn_JkM)- I love this one. It shows how great he could be with a simple song. The guitar part is very powerful but there's not a lot to it- he uses a simple melody to a great effect.

Something that's interesting is David Bowie's cover of See Emily Play (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaGBXJmKGAU), which I always thought of as David Bowie performing it in the style of Syd's last PF songs after he had gone off the deep end.

Thanks for taking the time to post those links. I have to say after just listening to a few of them my initial observation is simply this: The Barrett songs sound so dated compared to later Floyd efforts without him, which to me sound timeless.

[Kalhoun]

As I'm also re-reading the book "Saucerful Of Secrets", I'm trying to juxtapose all the glowing commentary about what a genius Syd was, etc against actually listening to some of the music, and frankly, I just can't agree with the book's conclusion. Other than that Syd took a lot of LSD, of course.

I agree with you. I get that he was inspirational in some way, but the band was way better without him. The book was good, but I don't understand his musical contribution at all.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

Now I want to post one. This is Floyd from 1994 performing Time, which is one of my favorite Floyd songs.

To me, this is the complete package (even without Waters, since Dave sang this song originally anyway): the lighting, the big screen with all the images, the way it sounds...everything. What a great-sounding and looking concert that must have been. They sound incredible.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntm1YfehK7U

(how do you post a link with your own words instead of all this Youtube garble, again? I forget.

[Marley23]

(how do you post a link with your own words instead of all this Youtube garble, again? I forget.
Type out the text you want and highlight it. Then click the link button (the world, with a chain link next to it) and paste in the URL.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

Type out the text you want and highlight it. Then click the link button (the world, with a chain link next to it) and paste in the URL.

Thanks Marley.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

OK. I have now listened to all the suggested tracks, from "Lucifer Sam" (which sounds like a James Bond movie song) to "Apples and Oranges" and everything in between and I have concluded that it is a "you had to be there" type of situation.

The Syd Barret music is so primitive and boppy (aside from "Jugband Blues", which is indeed a little scary) and not indicative of the direction Pink Floyd headed in after he was cast out of the band.

The production sucks, the songs are really uneven (or silly), and it sounds like some kind of soundtrack for 1966 psychedelia gone horribly wrong.

In short, I think Syd Barrett's music sucks. I wanted to like it, I really did, but most of it is so nonsensical that I can't really compare it to later Floyd efforts that (to me) are meaningful and beautifully recorded. The Beatles did far more to further the pop effort than the Floyd ever did.

Pink Floyd was meant to be a cynical, contemplative electronic band with insane visuals and lyrics. Syd would have destroyed them if he'd been allowed to stick around. I still fail to see the "awesome influence" he had with the band, other than to provide Waters with songwriting material about a good friend gone nutso.

The irony for me is the Floyd's constant railing against materialism while they enjoyed the lives of landed gentry after their success with DSOTM.

YMMV of course.

[mswas]

Yeah, I don't really like Syd Barrett's music.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

Yeah, I don't really like Syd Barrett's music.
I don't get the hatred for The Wall, either. It's beautifully cynical, full of shame, regret...I think it spans the human experience of isolation, paranoia and shame.

It's a great recording, Roger Water's dominance leading to the breakup of the band aside.

I'll never understand people that hate The Wall. Anyone care to explain?

[mswas]

Not me, I love that album.

[Ludovic]

I think there are plenty of albums that contain the same sweeping portrayals of the human condition. But none that also contain the best musical soloes ever composed by anyone in history. The Wall is among the best pieces of artwork ever created by Humanity.

[Covered_In_Bees!]

I don't get the hatred for The Wall, either. It's beautifully cynical, full of shame, regret...I think it spans the human experience of isolation, paranoia and shame.

It's a great recording, Roger Water's dominance leading to the breakup of the band aside.

I'll never understand people that hate The Wall. Anyone care to explain?

What hate? I have admittedly only skimmed the thread, but I only saw praise for The Wall here.

As for Barrett's noninstrumental work, I love Astronomy Domine and Lucifer Sam.

And I can't help but mention that Interstellar Overdrive (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=520694) really really makes me want to jam!

[mswas]

Interstellar Overdrive is a great track as is Astronomy Domine. If Syd is on Ummagumma I like that album, so I guess I can understand the love of Syd. That album is just very playfully weird.

[dropzone]

I don't get the hatred for The Wall, either. It's beautifully cynical, full of shame, regret...I think it spans the human experience of isolation, paranoia and shame.I think it's an hour and a half of whinging about things that had happened 30 years before. I wanted to yell, "That was in 1949! Get over it, Roger!"

Dark Side is insipid. Meddle is a far, FAR better album.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

I think it's an hour and a half of whinging about things that had happened 30 years before. I wanted to yell, "That was in 1949! Get over it, Roger!"

Dark Side is insipid. Meddle is a far, FAR better album.

I think it's amazing the different opinions on this matter. I couldn't disagree more, as I don't find an adult man recollecting how his childhood profoundly affected his adulthood, but YMMV.

I think The Wall is a masterpiece of modern interpretation of severe isolation and mental illness (more shades of Syd?).

Dark Side is a sonic wonder. There's never been another album like it. 700 plus weeks on the Billboard top 100 can't be totally wrong!

But I respect everyone's opinion or I wouldn't have asked in the first place.

[Covered_In_Bees!]

I think it's an hour and a half of whinging about things that had happened 30 years before. I wanted to yell, "That was in 1949! Get over it, Roger!"

Who cares what the group's underlying reasons are for albums or specific songs? The Wall is a very well done hour and a half of 30 year old whinging.

Dark Side is insipid. Meddle is a far, FAR better album.

Dark Side of the Moon at least had a theme. Meddle, as far as I can tell, had no such theme. Though I do love One of These Days and Echoes. Meddle was the first album of theirs I own, so don't go off thinking I dislike it. I just think that in direct comparison to Dark Side, Meddle falls short.

[Talon Karrde]

It comes down to taste. I used to like The Wall and DSotM better but my preferences have changed. I like my music weird, somewhat avant-garde and bordering on a trainwreck.
If you don't like Syd Barrett I'm also guessing you don't like The Velvet Underground, or garage rock, or punk, or post-punk. IME people who like that music tend to like Syd Barrett's music and not like later Floyd, while those with more traditional taste in rock music don't like Syd Barrett and do like later Floyd.

If you want to start a thread about The Wall that might not be a bad idea. I'm not a huge fan of the album anymore and I'll try and talk a little bit about why but I don't want to in this thread.

Piper at the Gates of Dawn does sound dated in a lot of places to me, as does See Emily Play. I also think Sgt. Pepper is the Beatles' most dated sounding album and I'd put it even with Piper. The first minute of Jugband Blues has aged well, and I don't think Syd's solo stuff is dated at all. BTW, if you think Jugband Blues is kind of scary (it's even scarier if you see this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTtXVrANEhU) video. There's nobody home.) wait till you hear Scream Thy Last Scream (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OPzPoSxha8&fmt=18).

Syd Barrett is also considered by some to be one of the best guitarists. I read a book about great guitarists and he was in there. To be honest, none of his guitar playing has really stood out to me except Golden Hair (and for all I know it's not even him playing). When people talk about him as a guitarist they mention that he ran his lighter along the strings to get interesting sounds, which puzzles me because slide guitar wasn't new even in the 60's.
Actually, I'd like to see someone like Wordman to weigh in on Syd Barrett as a guitarist. Is there anyone friendly with him who'd like to PM him and ask him to join the conversation?

Barrett has had a big influence too. David Bowie was a fan. R.E.M. were big fans and have covered some of his songs. While looking up videos I saw some covers by John Frusciante (the original guitarist for the Red Hot Chili Peppers). There's a song by the Television Personalities called I Know Where Syd Barrett Lives (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8pm3Ct615k) that was a tribute to him done in his style while also poking a little fun at the production on his PF music.
I also hear his influences in the music of bands as diverse as The Smiths, Neutral Milk Hotel, The Church and Beat Happening.

[Mllz]

I'll never understand people that hate The Wall. Anyone care to explain?

Eh. I fully admit that I should probably give it another listen, as it's been some ten years since I last played it all the way through. And it is quite well produced.

But...


Most of the songs feel like incomplete ideas. Concept albums are all well and good, but it's nice if most of the songs can... well... stand on their own. At least to an extent.*
It's waaaay Roger Waters dominated, and the music suffers as a result. There's some truly epic, classic, Gilmour guitar playing here and there, but it's like a solo album.**
I'm very anti-double-album due to the heavy bloat factor; The Wall really exemplifies this, possibly moreso than any other***
I hate to harp on this, but... the songs? There isn't a whole lot there. Especially for a double album.


*To be fair, your question--and this thread in general--really makes me feel like I need to listen to it again, as a whole as indicated above. As in, it would be good for me; not just for review/evaluation purposes. Lord only knows what happened to my bulky 2-disc old-school Columbia Records CD-in-the-double-wide-plastic-case-with-the-red-block-letter-side-printing copy of it. So, I'll remedy that when I can. (I'm not expecting my opinion to change drastically, but I've been wrong about that before.)
**And this definitely isn't anything against ol' Rog... not only was he perhaps the most important, essential, even, member of the band, but in my nearly-head-to-head comparison of seeing Watersless Floyd in '94 and Waters with a different band in '96, Roger came out on top in a big way. That counts for quite a bit, as far as I'm concerned.
***I really very strongly believe that any double album ever made would have been much better as a single album. Or two albums, sold separately. Or an album with bonus material released after the fact. And I only grant partial forgiveness to double albums released in the LP era (no forgiveness at all to double CDs... I don't care who you are, you don't have more than 80 minutes of brilliant new material to release all at once). No, I don't want to hear about your White Album. Exile on Main Street is excellent, but soooo bloated. Don't even get me started on Physical Grafitti. Probably warrants its own thread.

[Mllz]

Syd Barrett is also considered by some to be one of the best guitarists. I read a book about great guitarists and he was in there.

I listened to Piper again today as a result of this thread, and I really got into his guitar playing. I think it influenced my own style much more than I remembered.

As for the lighter, I'd have to listen for that in particular, but I don't think he used it as a slide per se (certainly not in the Duane Allman or Mick Taylor kind of way). More of an effect.

[dropzone]

OTOH, a wall at a local elementary school is decorated with a playful boy and girl drawn in 3D with bricks. It might not have been creepy at first, but it became totally creepy after The Wall was released.

The night The Wall was released a local station played it in its entirety. I listened and was reminded of a roommate/DJ who introduced Led Zeppelin's Dyer Maker as, "Another of Led Zeppelin's many Disco favorites." Totally commercial yet sadly over-personal, an odd achievement.

[Richard Pearse]

Syd's guitar playing

In my opinion Syd is a very mediocre guitar player technically speaking, however he was experimental and distinctive which can count for a lot more than technical ability.

I seem to recall that David Gilmour was given a bit of stick when he joined the band for "trying to sound like Syd" but it was actually David who had taught Syd much of what Syd knew about playing the guitar. Gilmour is also no technical genius, he openly admits his fingers are slow and so he tries to work to his strengths which is a sense of melody, space, and an ability to compliment the music. I do find that when Gilmour is being experimental with his guitar, such as the whale sounds in Echoes, it sounds a hell of a lot more musical than when Syd was getting out there.

The Band Members

The five main members of Pink Floyd each have strengths and weaknesses that compliment each other in a big way.

Syd

The problem (and strength) with Syd Barret is that he was pretty good at writing 60s pop tunes with a touch of weird. That was great in the 60s but that sound did not date well, the production values and feel of the music has just become incredibly dated and so it's hard to listen to it in the way you would had you been hearing it for the first time in the 60s.

Roger

Water's on the other hand could write lyrics. He's not the best lyric writer out there, but he's the best PF had after Syd got kicked out, and he didn't seem to suffer from writer's block, he had an opinion and he was able to put it into words. But musically he's weak. His bass playing is simple and uninspired and a lot of his work has pretty weak music in general. You get the feeling that much of his solo music, either under his own name or written by him and performed by PF, is just a vehicle for his lyrics.

David

Then there's David Gilmour. Some would say "boy you were lucky mate, to get into Pink Floyd when you did", but I think Pink Floyd would have gone nowhere without him, Pink Floyd were lucky to get him. Gilmour is proof that there is a lot more to playing a musical instrument than being able to fit lots of notes into a bar. He has a good ear for the over all sound of the musical piece and he can play something that compliments the music. If Roger Waters is the "Voice of Pink Floyd", then along with Rick Wright, David is the music of Pink Floyd. He can also sing which is more than can be said for Roger. Unfortunately he's probably only written a few good lyrics in his life and he knows it which is why you see so many different writing credits on the Gilmour lead albums. Gilmour is reticent and doesn't relish pouring his heart out onto paper, that's what his guitar is for.

Rick

Which brings me to Rick. By all accounts he was a bit of a pain in the arse, flakey, and unreliable when it came to writing music. But he had a great sound and nice ear for chords. David Gilmour has attributed Rick as being the most responsible for the sound of Pink Floyd. The layers of keyboards and synths providing the canvas for the other players to paint on if you like. You can hear it in the difference between A Momentary Lapse of Reason and the Division Bell, regardless of which you like or don't like, the Division Bell sounds a lot more like Pink Floyd due to the presence of Rick Wright. A stand out example is Wearing the Inside Out.

Nick

Nick Mason was the right drummer at the right time. He found himself playing with a bunch of guys who were no virtuosos and for much of their career, didn't make any great demands of him. He has a nice lazy playing style that fits in very well with the music the other guys were creating. He also has a great groove beat that he used to good effect in part of Echoes and on Pigs from Animals. On the other hand he couldn't cope with relatively simple beats on some songs and they had to use a session drummer. I think Two Suns in the Sunset is one of those songs.

Conclusion

Seeing the guy's strengths as I've laid out above it should come as no surprise that their best work came when they were working well together. When Roger was writing interesting lyrics, Rick was laying the musical foundations, David was adding musicianship, and Nick keeping up on the drums. No surprises then that in my opinion their best songs and albums have all of their names in the credits.

Water's lack of commercial success

I think this also partly explains Roger Water's relative lack of success under his own name, even when playing Pink Floyd songs. Sure part of it is simply that the name Pink Floyd is way bigger than any of the band members, but also when Roger Waters fronts a band playing Pink Floyd they sound like a cover band. With out Gilmour's guitar and Wright's keyboards the Pink Floyd sound, which is what many people like, is not there. I watched Comfortably Numb from one of Roger's concerts the other day on YouTube. The verses sounded great with Roger singing, but the choruses and guitar solos really missed Gilmour's voice and guitar (sorry Doyle Branham II.)

Closing thoughts

I like the music from all the eras to some extant but I find the Syd stuff to be much harder to listen to. If I'm in the right frame of mind I can enjoy it, but sometimes it's just unlistenable to me. There are a few that I always like, the more poppy ones I suppose, like See Emily Play. I really like the early post-Syd stuff like Ummagumma, More, Meddle etc. Though I find some of the individual contributions on Ummagumma to be unlistenable (particularly Nick Mason's.) On the other hand I think Gilmour's The Narrow Way is brilliant, it introduced me to that trippy acoustic guitar overlaid with slide guitar sound that is present in a more mellow way on A Pillow of Winds. To the poster who asked, Syd did not feature on Ummagumma but one of his songs did (Astronomy Domine.) Syd only played on The Piper at the Gates of Dawn and a little bit on A Saucer Full of Secrets.

Personally I think Obscured by Clouds is an under-rated PF album. It was a bit of a departure for them in that some of the tunes rock out a bit more and tended more toward short pop songs. The stand out track for me is Childhood's End, I love songs where Gilmour gets a bit gritty with his vocals. I'm also a sucker for a nice chord progression and I think Rick Wright's Stay is fantastic.

I think over all The Dark Side of the Moon is a better album than Meddle, but mainly because it is very consistent. There aren't any weak songs on DSotM like there are on Meddle, but there also aren't any as good as Echoes either.

Well that's my take and I haven't really touched on the 70s at all. I used to be a big Pink Floyd fan but I've grown away from it a bit now. For a long time they were the only band that I could almost guarantee that I'd like every song on an album. I could just put one on and listen to it from start through to finish.

[dropzone]

It comes down to taste. I used to like The Wall and DSotM better but my preferences have changed. I like my music weird, somewhat avant-garde and bordering on a trainwreck.I was introduced to PF around the same time I was introduced to a LOT of bands that were running just this--or the other--side of a trainwreck. Pop pabulum was mildly entertaining, if I'd been drinking, but it was not interesting, if I were sober. A younger me would dismiss the fans of post-SB, especially DSotM, PF as little better than David Cassidy fans. I like to think I'm better than that now, but I am not. Their taste is in their mouth and their understanding of music is in the toilet. The sooner they realize that the happier they will be. ;)

[TheFatKid]

I've recently reacquainted myself with some Floyd music. Like a long lost lover, I've been awash in the sonic familiarity of the Floyd's music as of late.

I have a question. Is there anyone that likes Pink Floyd's earlier stuff with Syd Barret more than their later stuff without him?

Honestly, I think a lot of the Barret-inspired music can border on unlistenable. Some of the stuff, like "Careful With That Axe, Eugene", "One Of These Days..." and other songs definetely foreshadow the type of band the Floyd were turning into.

But some of Syd's stuff, like "Vegetable Man", Scream Thy Last Scream" are just terrible to me.

I don't see how anyone could like that stuff better or even equal to the material on "Dark Side Of The Moon" and everything that came after.

Is it just me? Are there more Syd tunes that I need to check out?

I'll take "Scarecrow" and "Apples and Oranges" over the Ummagumma studio disc any day. Talk about unlistenable! (And I'm a Floyd freak.)

Try "The Madcap Laughs" for a good intro to solo Syd.

[TheFatKid]

Gilmour is also no technical genius, he openly admits his fingers are slow and so he tries to work to his strengths which is a sense of melody, space, and an ability to compliment the music.

I loved it when I heard David asked in an interview about being slow, and he said, "I never could play fast, so I compensated by playing well."

[TheFatKid]

Dark Side is a sonic wonder. There's never been another album like it.

Agreed. It's easy to take potshots at it precisely because it has been so popular. Being a contrarian is easy. But the record is absolutely brilliant. And it holds up after all these years, start to finish.

[TheFatKid]

I just think that in direct comparison to Dark Side, Meddle falls short.

True, but I do think Echoes is their best song. It has everything that made Floyd Floyd. It's incredibly ambitious, and it works.

[TheFatKid]

Rick

Which brings me to Rick. By all accounts he was a bit of a pain in the arse, flakey, and unreliable when it came to writing music. But he had a great sound and nice ear for chords. David Gilmour has attributed Rick as being the most responsible for the sound of Pink Floyd. The layers of keyboards and synths providing the canvas for the other players to paint on if you like. You can hear it in the difference between A Momentary Lapse of Reason and the Division Bell, regardless of which you like or don't like, the Division Bell sounds a lot more like Pink Floyd due to the presence of Rick Wright. A stand out example is Wearing the Inside Out.

Nick

Nick Mason was the right drummer at the right time. He found himself playing with a bunch of guys who were no virtuosos and for much of their career, didn't make any great demands of him. He has a nice lazy playing style that fits in very well with the music the other guys were creating. He also has a great groove beat that he used to good effect in part of Echoes and on Pigs from Animals. On the other hand he couldn't cope with relatively simple beats on some songs and they had to use a session drummer. I think Two Suns in the Sunset is one of those songs.

A couple of points.

While Roger actually managed to fire Rick for not contributing to the songwriting, it's Rick more than anyone who defines the PF sound.

Comparing Final Cut with Wish You Were Here (perennial winner of fan polls) is another good demonstration of that.

Of course, Rick got his revenge on the The Wall tour, where he, as a non-band-member, got paid scale. Roger's overblown stage show lost money, so he was the only one of the 4 for whom the tour was not a loss.

Nick, while not a great drummer, had more to do with establishing the Floyd sound than he gets credit for. Look to his "tape effects" credits on the early records.

But like all the Floyd members except arguably Gilmour, and maybe Wright in his last solo effort, he went to excesses when on his own and couldn't come anywhere close to what he was able to achieve as part of the band.

[TheFatKid]

The irony for me is the Floyd's constant railing against materialism while they enjoyed the lives of landed gentry after their success with DSOTM.

Not quite.

They ended up getting bilked out of the DSOTM money, which is why they had to do The Wall.

At that point, the band had broken up, but no announcement had been made.

When it turned out they were financially busted, they had to reassess.

Roger came back with a couple of solo projects he had been working on: The Wall, and The Pros and Cons of Hitchhiking.

The band chose to do The Wall, and converted it from a Waters soundscape into actual music.

[Lobot]

I saw Waters on his "In the Flesh" tour and it's still one of the best shows I've been to. BUT! It felt like Waters, not Floyd, and frankly, things really sagged during his wordy and preachy solo material. Waters was maybe the "voice" of Floyd, but IMHO, Wright and especially Gilmour were the true "soul" of the band. Gilmour's On an Island, for example, sound a hell of a lot more like a Floyd album than does Waters' Amused to Death.

I love The Wall to bits, but it's basically a collaboration between Waters, Gilmour and Bob Ezrin and in no way reflects Pink Floyd. "Echoes" is the best thing PF did as a band, and I think Meddle and Obscured By Clouds taken together encapsulate both the strengths and weaknesses of the post-Barrett quartet better than either DSOTM or even WYWH do.

[Lobot]

Not quite.

They ended up getting bilked out of the DSOTM money, which is why they had to do The Wall.

At that point, the band had broken up, but no announcement had been made.

When it turned out they were financially busted, they had to reassess.

Roger came back with a couple of solo projects he had been working on: The Wall, and The Pros and Cons of Hitchhiking.

The band chose to do The Wall, and converted it from a Waters soundscape into actual music.

What's your source for all of this? It all intuitively fits, I must say. (The last two paragraphs I know about, but not the rest.)

Animals was the beginning of the end -- it was basically WYWH offcuts.

[Richard Pearse]

What's your source for all of this? It all intuitively fits, I must say. (The last two paragraphs I know about, but not the rest.)

Animals was the beginning of the end -- it was basically WYWH offcuts.
I believe that after the Dark Side of the Moon they had three or four new songs which eventually became Shine On, Dogs, Pigs, and Sheep. Leading up to WYWH there was some discussion about what to do for an album with some of them wanting to just do the songs they had while I think Roger came up with the idea of making Shine On into an entire album and writing some other songs to go with it. So then Dogs Pigs and Sheep became the Animals album, but they were all written in a similar time period as Shine On. It's unfair to call Animals WYWH off cuts. They're no more related to WYWH than the Pros and Cons of Hitchiking is related to The Wall.

[Lobot]

I believe that after the Dark Side of the Moon they had three or four new songs which eventually became Shine On, Dogs, Pigs, and Sheep. Leading up to WYWH there was some discussion about what to do for an album with some of them wanting to just do the songs they had while I think Roger came up with the idea of making Shine On into an entire album and writing some other songs to go with it. So then Dogs Pigs and Sheep became the Animals album, but they were all written in a similar time period as Shine On. It's unfair to call Animals WYWH off cuts. They're no more related to WYWH than the Pros and Cons of Hitchiking is related to The Wall.

I'd compare it more to The Wall + The Final Cut. I mean, IIRC, the plan was to have "Shine On..." as a sidelong epic, a la "Echoes", with the other side being "You Gotta Be Crazy" and "Raving and Drooling". Of course, the plan later changed and the latter two songs became "Dogs" and "Sheep" respectively.

But my point was that Animals was not so much a new work as it was the completion of the post-DSOTM period. They'd already started to run out of steam (especially Wright, who added flourishes but was not contributing a lot by that point, by his own admission).

As for The Pros and Cons of Hitchhiking, I've got some recollection that "Sexual Revolution" was originally written for The Wall. But, like I said, I think the fairer analogy is WYWH + Animals = The Wall + The Final Cut. In both cases you've got albums comprised primarily of songs composed for a prior album, then repurposed after the fact.

[NineToTheSky]

I agree with all of those who have said that the Saucerful to Meddle period was their best. They have always been adventurous, but they pushed the boundaries further during that era. For example, they created a surround sound system to use in concerts (notably, and very boringly, in Cymbaline, where footsteps endlessly walk round the auditorium). They tried to make an album where the sounds could only be made with household objects (never finished, probably thankfully). Even their failures were interesting.

Their best album, IMO, was another one that was never officially released: The Man And The Journey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Man_and_the_Journey). This was played in a concert tour, memorably called The Massed Gadgets Of Auxemines. It was broadcast on Dutch radio and was released on numerous bootlegs (for example Complete Concertgebouw 1969). Had it been officially released, it probably would have replaced Ummagumma and More, as it included songs that appeared on those albums.

[NineToTheSky]

I've just found a link to The Man And The Journey broadcast here (http://cdn3.libsyn.com/braindamage/BD49_-_Floyd_podcast_-_01-20-06.mp3?nvb=20090808130050&nva=20090809131050&t=0d659f2a0c93a5dd4753d), for those who would like to hear it. It starts after Fat Old Sun.

[TheFatKid]

What's your source for all of this? It all intuitively fits, I must say. (The last two paragraphs I know about, but not the rest.)

Animals was the beginning of the end -- it was basically WYWH offcuts.

Nicolas Schaffner wrote a very good bandography called "Saucerful of Secrets" some years back which details the whole mess.

I'm looking forward to reading Nick Mason's book "Inside Out".

Btw, "Animals" was my first record, and I still dig it. :)

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

Not quite.

They ended up getting bilked out of the DSOTM money, which is why they had to do The Wall.

At that point, the band had broken up, but no announcement had been made.

When it turned out they were financially busted, they had to reassess.

Roger came back with a couple of solo projects he had been working on: The Wall, and The Pros and Cons of Hitchhiking.

The band chose to do The Wall, and converted it from a Waters soundscape into actual music.

IIRC the book Saucerful...says they got a 1,000,000 pound advance to make the next album after DSOTM, and went on to say that they indeed lived like "landed gentry" for a time, and were extremely bored and not really into making another album at the time.

[Chez Guevara]

Nicolas Schaffner wrote a very good bandography called "Saucerful of Secrets" some years back which details the whole mess.

I'm looking forward to reading Nick Mason's book "Inside Out".I haven't read Saucerful of Secrets.

I do, however, own copies of Inside Out and Pigs Might Fly - The Inside Story of Pink Floyd by Mark Blake (Aurum Press, 2007). Additionally, I have read widely about Pink Floyd via other material. I have also seen the DVD Classic Albums: The Making of The Dark Side of the Moon, and several TV documentaries about the band, all of which mention the album.

Not one of these sources even begins to recall any problems the band might have experienced in collecting their due reward from DSotM. In fact, Blake records that in 1974, each member of the band bought a new house in London. Wright also invested in a country manor house near Cambridge, installing his own recording studio to boot. During 1973-1975 (according to Blake) the band members all bought villas in either Greece or the South of France.

Again, according to Blake, they also acquired a number of flats in Ladbroke Grove, London. People they knew were on hard times were permitted to live in these flats for a peppercorn rent.

No band member interviewed for Classic Albums: The Making of The Dark Side of the Moon indicates any difficulties collecting the cash. Indeed, one of them (I think it is Gilmour) categorically states that DSotM put all of them into the financial stratosphere.

I have taken the trouble to read all 49 customer reviews of the book Saucerful of Secrets on Amazon. Not one review mentions any financial shenanigans concerning DSotM.

I'm looking forward to reading Saucerful of Secrets.

[NineToTheSky]

Not one review mentions any financial shenanigans concerning DSotM.

It's not so much shenanigans concerning DSOTM, but the shenanigans of their investment managers, Norton Warburg, whose financial mismanagement nearly bankrupted them.

[Richard Pearse]

Yes they got their money alright but Norton Warburg fucked up and they lost a lot of it. I think a lot of the recording for the Wall was done overseas for tax reasons.

Here's a quote from Roger Waters (http://pinkfloydz.com/Int%20June%2087%20Waters.html) on the topic.

CS: You had that tax problem with the Pink Floyd. Did that severely hit you?

RW: Oh yes, It was a company called Norton Warburg, run by a guy called Andrew Warburg. The idea was to take gross income and run it through a finance company to protect it from the immediate payment of tax on the grounds that it was being used to finance venture capital situation. It was all legal. But what Norton Warburg did was to move money from account to account and take huge management fees each time they moved it. We were going bankrupt. We lost a couple of million quid - nearly everything we'd made from Dark Side Of The Moon. Then we discovered the Inland Revenue might come and ask for us 83 per cent of the money we had lost. Which we didn't have. So we had gone from fourteen-years-olds with ten quid guitars and fantasies of being rich and famous, and made the dream come true with Dark Side Of The Moon, and then, being greedy and trying to protect it, we'd lost it all. So on those grounds we decided to go abroad to make the next record, The Wall, and try and get some cash to pay this potential tax bill. Mind you, Rick Wright left in the middle of that, in mid-1979. That was the decision of all three of us. I see that he's back with the others now, to make it all seem kosher, like a proper group. But he's on a wage.


I'm looking forward to reading Nick Mason's book "Inside Out".
Ah it's not that great really. I think Nick Mason is too close to everything to write an interesting book about it all. Pigs Might Fly is an excellent book in my opinion. Not just because it has interesting information about PF but it's a good read in general about living in the 60s.

[TheFatKid]

I haven't read Saucerful of Secrets.

I do, however, own copies of Inside Out and Pigs Might Fly - The Inside Story of Pink Floyd by Mark Blake (Aurum Press, 2007). Additionally, I have read widely about Pink Floyd via other material. I have also seen the DVD Classic Albums: The Making of The Dark Side of the Moon, and several TV documentaries about the band, all of which mention the album.

Not one of these sources even begins to recall any problems the band might have experienced in collecting their due reward from DSotM. In fact, Blake records that in 1974, each member of the band bought a new house in London. Wright also invested in a country manor house near Cambridge, installing his own recording studio to boot. During 1973-1975 (according to Blake) the band members all bought villas in either Greece or the South of France.

Again, according to Blake, they also acquired a number of flats in Ladbroke Grove, London. People they knew were on hard times were permitted to live in these flats for a peppercorn rent.

No band member interviewed for Classic Albums: The Making of The Dark Side of the Moon indicates any difficulties collecting the cash. Indeed, one of them (I think it is Gilmour) categorically states that DSotM put all of them into the financial stratosphere.

I have taken the trouble to read all 49 customer reviews of the book Saucerful of Secrets on Amazon. Not one review mentions any financial shenanigans concerning DSotM.

I'm looking forward to reading Saucerful of Secrets.

I wish I still had the book so I could look it up.

I hope I'm not misremembering, but my recollection was that there was no intention to make another record until something went south with the finances (I thought it was an embezzlement or something, but perhaps I'm confusing this with what happened to the Dead that time with Mickey's uncle) and suddenly they had to for financial reasons. Otherwise, Nick, Rick, and David would not have even considered doing either of Roger's projects as a Floyd record.

In your other sources, what reasons are given for the band going back into the studio for the Wall project?

[TheFatKid]

It's not so much shenanigans concerning DSOTM, but the shenanigans of their investment managers, Norton Warburg, whose financial mismanagement nearly bankrupted them.

Ok, thank you.

My recollection was that the money disappeared somehow, and I think I was indeed conflating this situation with what happend to the Grateful Dead.

[sqweels]

To hijack a little, anyone familiar with Tomorrow (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomorrow_(band))? Highly reminiscent of Syd-era Floyd, and heavily psychedelic, especially My White Bicycle (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62yWU4ryrgI). And with the added trivia bonus of featuring a pre-Yes Steve Howe.

[John DiFool]

I don't get the hatred for The Wall, either. It's beautifully cynical, full of shame, regret...I think it spans the human experience of isolation, paranoia and shame.

It's a great recording, Roger Water's dominance leading to the breakup of the band aside.

I'll never understand people that hate The Wall. Anyone care to explain?

Oh, I can admire it a bit while not wanting to listen to it. I did my time as a self-indulgent depressive right around the time it was released, so the themes don't age well with me now.

[Chez Guevara]

Ok, thank you.

My recollection was that the money disappeared somehow, and I think I was indeed conflating this situation with what happend to the Grateful Dead.Sure, NineToTheSky & 1920s Style "Death Ray" point out the true situation.

Norton Warburg didn't arrive on the scene until 1976, 3 years after the release of DSotM. The company advised the band to place a percentage of their earnings into various venture capital enterprises, in order to avoid paying a punitive 83% tax. With the exception of one property deal in Knightsbridge, these enterprises failed dismally. It was estimated the Floyd lost circa £3.3 million as a result of Norton Warburg management skimming.

As has been said, they got their due rewards but subsequently lost them. Then, they needed to do The Wall for the cash.

It's just the timing of your version that is amiss.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

Oh, I can admire it a bit while not wanting to listen to it. I did my time as a self-indulgent depressive right around the time it was released, so the themes don't age well with me now.

I can relate to your POV, but some of those songs on that recording are so compelling to me. "Run Like Hell", "Young Lust", "In The Flesh", "Thin Ice" and "Mother" being chief among them to me.

[TheFatKid]

It's just the timing of your version that is amiss.

No, that was the timing I recalled.

[TheFatKid]

I can relate to your POV, but some of those songs on that recording are so compelling to me. "Run Like Hell", "Young Lust", "In The Flesh", "Thin Ice" and "Mother" being chief among them to me.

Yeah, I listened to it so much when I was young that I didn't play it at all for maybe 15 years. When I came back to it, there was a lot to like. Imho, the best bits have the most influence from Gilmour.

[The Stafford Cripps]

I had already heard and liked quite a lot of Floyd in 1984 when I was 13, but Piper at the gates of Dawn was the first album (as opposed to compilation, such as Beatles' 20 Greatest Hits) that I became completely obsessed with. I still love all of it. At the time I could not hear Bike too many times. I still think Flaming is incredibly moving.

I can see his merits but I'm not a great Waters fan. My favourite other Floyd stuff is Echoes and the whole of Atom Heart Mother. I don't think I've ever met anyone else who actually likes Alan's Psychedelic Breakfast.

Since someone raised the topic upthread I like 60s American garage punk and other stuff like that. For me pop music has to have some sort of sexy or weird edge to it (which can be expressed in many different ways), and I think initially Syd Barrett had that.

I feel a lot of the best post Barrett Floyd stuff (esp 2nd side AHM) evokes a few beautiful guys and girls lying in a grassy meadow with some guitars on a warm sunny day, miles from anyone else, lazily smoking weed and watching the clouds drift by. I was very pleased to discover recently that Barrett and Gilmour basically spent 1966 doing this in France.

[NineToTheSky]

I don't think I've ever met anyone else who actually likes Alan's Psychedelic Breakfast.

Me, me, me! I do. Lovely tunes, and I do like the sound effects: "Toast; I like toast", snap, crackle, pop, etc.

[NineToTheSky]

To hijack a little, anyone familiar with Tomorrow (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomorrow_(band))? Highly reminiscent of Syd-era Floyd, and heavily psychedelic, especially My White Bicycle (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62yWU4ryrgI). And with the added trivia bonus of featuring a pre-Yes Steve Howe.

Yes, I was, and am, very fond of them, too. Despite the term 'psychedelic' being bandied about with wild abandon in 1967, I don't think that too many groups actually deserved the description. Syd's Pink Floyd and Tomorrow were two that definitely did.

[TheFatKid]

Me, me, me! I do. Lovely tunes, and I do like the sound effects: "Toast; I like toast", snap, crackle, pop, etc.

Count me in, too. But I find the studio record from Ummagumma unlistenable.

[NineToTheSky]

Count me in, too. But I find the studio record from Ummagumma unlistenable.

Yes, I do, too - apart from Grantchester Meadows and The Narrow Way.

I have fond memories of Grantchester Meadows because I knew Francis Crick's (the DNA man) daughter. They lived there, and as G. Odoreida said 'I feel a lot of the best post Barrett Floyd stuff (esp 2nd side AHM) evokes a few beautiful guys and girls lying in a grassy meadow with some guitars on a warm sunny day, miles from anyone else, lazily smoking weed and watching the clouds drift by.' (Minus the weed smoking. And I don't know about me being beautiful, but she was.)

[Ludovic]

Yes, I do, too - apart from Grantchester Meadows and The Narrow Way.

I think that The Narrow Way is the only song on that album to mesh well stylistically with their Epic Era stuff. If it were produced differently it could have been another classic like Echoes (which should really be regarded as straddling the line between the Post-Barrett era and Epic Era.)

ETA: and it ****in rocks, of course. Even though the only tracks with a version unavailable elsewhere that I like off Ummagumma are Narrow Way, Granchester Meadows, and SSoSFAGTiaCaGWAP occasionally, it was still well worth the purchase price.

[Lobot]

If it were produced differently it could have been another classic like Echoes (which should really be regarded as straddling the line between the Post-Barrett era and Epic Era.)

IMHO, with "Echoes", you can hear the seeds of "Breathe" and "Time" in particular.