Shotguns: useful scenarios in actual tactical combat (hypothetical)?

[wmfellows]

Inspired by the fictional question, http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=528996, I'm vaguely curious as to this.

[Martini Enfield]

Shotguns were used during both World Wars for close combat- loaded with 00SG buckshot.

Anyone hit with that is going to have a bad day. In fact, the Germans tried to have shotgun use banned during WWI as being in breach of the Hague Convention (the same convention that outlawed the use of "dum-dum" bullets in combat).

Besides the Winchester Model 1917 Trench Gun (which could mount a bayonet and was used by the US in both World Wars), British and ANZAC soldiers were known to use sawn-off shotguns in trench raids during the First World War. They were compact, effective, and easy to use.

Shotguns are also used nowadays for breaching doors (ie blowing hinges and locks open to gain entry to buildings), and their comparatively short range (but high effectiveness) makes them useful for house-to-house military operations, I'm told.

[cerberus]

...they also are useful in deploying less-than-lethal munitions like rubber slugs, bean bags and CS/riot shells. They can also deploy some heavier penetration items like flechet rounds.

[Harvey The Heavy]

They're still used aboard naval vessels to repel boarders.

[TurboNuke]

Yep we had them in the Navy for repel boarders. Navy guys don't get a lot of shooting experience so shotguns are good for them and seems like they would be less likely to damage equipment.

[DrDeth]

It's just that they have such crappy range, which is why they are specialized weapons, not standard issue.

[Kevbo]

The limited range can be a good thing for LE and home defense..less likely to injure someone on the other side of a wall, or a block away.

It is also part of the reason shotguns are used for bird hunting...not really a good idea to fire a rifle into the air, even if you are a good enough shot to hit a bird on the wing. Birdshot only stings a bit when it returns to earth.

[janeslogin]

...they also are useful in deploying less-than-lethal munitions like rubber slugs, bean bags and CS/riot shells. They can also deploy some heavier penetration items like flechet rounds.

Old timers often told yarns of shotgun shells filled with rock salt. Any idea why that is not discussed anymore?

[ivn1188]

Buckshot's "crappy" range is around 50 yards. That's more than enough for most situations -- and is a higher effective range than most pistols in the hands of most shooters.

[Der Trihs]

Old timers often told yarns of shotgun shells filled with rock salt. Any idea why that is not discussed anymore?Still used (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shotgun#Less_Lethal_rounds.2C_for_riot_and_animal_control).

Rock salt shells are hand loaded with rock salt, replacing the standard lead or steel shot. Rock Salt shells could be seen as the forerunners of modern less-lethal rounds. In the United States, Rock salt shells were and are sometimes used by rural civilians to defend their property. The brittle salt was unlikely to cause serious injury at long ranges, but would cause painful stinging injuries and served as a warning. Some Spanish police forces, like the Guardia Civil and Cuerpo Nacional de Policía, use special rock salt shells called SAL-90 in their riot control units.

[BrotherCadfael]

My brother used a shotgun when on patrol in 'Nam. The short range was not a handicap in dense jungle conditions.

[thelurkinghorror]

Old timers often told yarns of shotgun shells filled with rock salt. Any idea why that is not discussed anymore?

Perhaps because it doesn't work too well, except to frighten those damn neighbor kids off. Cite (http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot33.htm)

[Lumpy]

In addition to combat, quite a bit of hunting of even larger game like deer is done with slug-loaded shotguns. In some locations longer-ranged weapons aren't allowed due to proximity to houses, people, etc.

[Elendil's Heir]

Cpl. Dwayne Hicks, USCM, had an heirloom shotgun as his backup weapon in Aliens, and seemed to do OK with it.

[Una Persson]

As I've posted before, I've seen the results of a kid shot with a shotgun loaded with rock salt, and it seriously fucked him up. I do not recall the injuries as being life-threatening, but they required hospitalization and they did leave bad scars.

[Paul in Qatar]

Some things, like motorcycles, ultra-light airplanes and shotguns just got to have military applications, but such applications are rather hard to find. All have been used in warfare, but none have gained widespread acceptance.

Shotguns are simply less lethal than "real" guns. They have some utility, especially in close quarters and closed spaces, but soldiers do not generally use specialty weapons. We use weapons optimized for normal conditions. If you have a shotgun in your hand, you cannot have a rifle, and most of the time a rifle will work better.

The M203 grenade launcher have a buckshot round (why not fleshettes?). With it you can do everything a shotgun round would do, but it can also fire HE and illum.

(Oddly the shotgun used to be issued to company cooks in some armies as a means of harvesting birds for the pot.)

[dropzone]

Actually, most pump and auto shotguns available were made GI in WWII.

Nothing like a load of rock salt to deter the more likely invaders of your property. Had a friend who moved into a house in the woods up north. Her roommates were not country girls and were feeding a local moose. Friend realized the likely sad consequences of such a relationship so, next time the moose came begging, she gave him a butt full of rock salt. Not a full dose, since he started running the moment he saw the shotgun. He apparently had encountered shotguns before.

[carnivorousplant]

Besides the Winchester Model 1917 Trench Gun (which could mount a bayonet and was used by the US in both World Wars),

I thought that was the Winchester 1897 pump shotgun with a bayonet lug welded on the barrel.

[Martini Enfield]

I thought that was the Winchester 1897 pump shotgun with a bayonet lug welded on the barrel.

It also had a barrel shroud too, IIRC. But yeah, the M1917 shotgun is basically an M1897 with a bayonet lug.

[Alessan]

Also, most militaries already have a dedicated close-quarters weapon - the submachine gun. Given the choice between a shotgun and an SMG, most soldiers would choose the latter. It's more versatile, more compact, more accurate, and carries more ammo.

[Cicero]

Shotguns were used during both World Wars for close combat- loaded with 00SG buckshot.

Anyone hit with that is going to have a bad day. In fact, the Germans tried to have shotgun use banned during WWI as being in breach of the Hague Convention (the same convention that outlawed the use of "dum-dum" bullets in combat).

Besides the Winchester Model 1917 Trench Gun (which could mount a bayonet and was used by the US in both World Wars), British and ANZAC soldiers were known to use sawn-off shotguns in trench raids during the First World War. They were compact, effective, and easy to use.

Shotguns are also used nowadays for breaching doors (ie blowing hinges and locks open to gain entry to buildings), and their comparatively short range (but high effectiveness) makes them useful for house-to-house military operations, I'm told.

ME- I am not disputing what you have said (I don't think) but I have read quite a lot on trench warfare for the Great War (my grand uncle participated in a few- I would have been scared as shit). However, I have never found or remember much of a mention of shotguns. They weren't standard issue AFAIK so ammunition would have been difficult to obtain. I thought coshes, knives and pistols were more common on trench raids.

[Martini Enfield]

I know that the M1917 was an "issue" weapon (as per Ned Schwing's The Winchester Pocket Guide in the period 1917-1918 and again during the Pacific War during WWII (I've seen photos of soldiers with them).

Also, my copy of "The Illustrated Book of Guns and Rifles (Edited by Frederick Wilkinson)" says on page 140:

The Americans had issued the Pump-Action Winchester Model 97 riot guns for guarding prisoners of war, but many found their way to the trenches via such unorthodox channels of supply as stud poker, horsetrading, and scrounging."

I know one of my reference books somewhere has mentioned British troops using sawn-off hunting shotguns in trench raids, and I've heard a couple of military historians here and in NZ mention ANZAC troops using them at Gallipoli, too.

So they weren't widespread, but shotguns were used for trench warfare in WWI- certainly on the Allied side, at any rate.

[Cicero]

That still doesn't confirm to me that they were used in trench raids (hey- we aren't going to have a barney). The Americans may have issued them but they didn't join the conflict until 1917 and didn't arrive in real numbers until a little later. They were very successful in their actions- at a cost of course- but to what extent they were involved in trench raids is a bit of a mystery.


And it doesn't give much weight to British and ANZAC forces using shotguns.