Dune - what would most upset Fremen?

[glee]

This thread was inspired by a knowledgeable discussion on a line from the book (film) 'Dune'.

At the end comes this thought (bolding mine):


It still takes Paul a while to really understand the importance of water, shown when he initially refuses Jamis' water. You'd think that mere minutes after this exchange, walking into the wet-planet conservatory would have had more of an impact on him. But, it helped to plant the seed.

...

Paul and Jessica are both interested by the conservatory but their reactions are more, oh - cool, plants. A Fremen probably would have gone into a holy frenzy.

OK, the Fremen live or die by not wasting water.
So what egregious water 'crime' could an off-worlder commit?

I vote for a golf course!

[Scissorjack]

Wet T-Shirt contests.

[FriarTed]

Peeing just anywhere.

[Alka Seltzer]

Paul and Jessica are both interested by the conservatory but their reactions are more, oh - cool, plants. A Fremen probably would have gone into a holy frenzy.

I think the Shadout Mapes referred to it as the "witching room".

I image the idea of a water park would have the Fremen spitting in fury, metaphorically at least.

[Aquila Be]

Paul and Jessica are both interested by the conservatory but their reactions are more, oh - cool, plants. A Fremen probably would have gone into a holy frenzy.

I first encountered this in the book and thought the reaction of outrage by the Fremen servants to the conservatory was just plain silly.

It was an enclosed conservatory, in other words a closed cycle plant growing system. The amount of water lost to the outside would have been minimal.

The Fremen way of growing food in open air irrigated farms, as described in the book, would have wasted a hundred times more water.

The only impression I got from that scene was that Frank Herbert didn't really have a very good grasp or understanding of the most ecologically efficient ways to use water.

[Ranchoth]

•Leaving the faucet running while you brushed your teeth.

-Possibly brushing your teeth in the first place.

•Bragging about a colossal offworld civil engineering project that involved capturing many thousands of comets and icy asteroids, carefully processed, machined, and polished into a high-albedo half dyson shell placed around a semi-habitable planet, boiling off what surface water there was, and broiling it into a sterile, arid husk of dust and rock...all for the glory of bringing about the magnificent, lifeless desolation, and proving that it could be done by human hands. Even if only at the capricious whim of madmen and aristocrats, such as yourself.

•Sending back the bottled water at a restaurant because it was Italian, not French, bottled water. And then sending the replacement back because it was an off-brand.

[Harmonious Discord]

The worst use of water to Freman might just be a water cannon to shoot Shai-Hulud.

[Mekhazzio]

I first encountered this in the book and thought the reaction of outrage by the Fremen servants to the conservatory was just plain silly

The Fremen way of growing food in open air irrigated farms, as described in the book, would have wasted a hundred times more water.
The difference, of course, is that cultivation of food is an essential need, and while it's possible that the conservatory was indeed a completely closed system, with little to no wastage, it's still an immense amount of water set aside for the sole purpose of vanity and luxury for a few people, instead of serving the community. Hoarding a scarce resource never makes for much popularity.

[Love Rhombus]

Peeing just anywhere.


Peeing in their collected water. I wonder if dropping a Fremen on an island would drive him/her mad? "Beautiful water, but I can't drink it! It kills me!"

[Koxinga]

I thought this question was answered in Children of Dune:

(1) Tell a Fremen he wears the "collar" of a slave,
(2) Accuse him of selling other Fremen for their water.
(3) Remind him that he has no descendents.

[MOIDALIZE]

The Fremen way of growing food in open air irrigated farms, as described in the book, would have wasted a hundred times more water.




They grew plants by using dew collectors that channeled the miniscule amount of moisture there was in the air towards the plant. I doubt it used much water at all.

[glee]

I thought this question was answered in Children of Dune:

(1) Tell a Fremen he wears the "collar" of a slave,
(2) Accuse him of selling other Fremen for their water.
(3) Remind him that he has no descendents.

As per the OP, I was looking for water crimes.

[Bryan Ekers]

The Spice Girls breaking up.

[runner pat]

The Spice Girls breaking up.

Bravo! :D

[Koxinga]

As per the OP, I was looking for water crimes.

Accusing a Fremen of selling other Fremen for their water. Or sell Fremen yourself for that purpose, that would probably be more upsetting.

Other than that, I doubt that a golf course on another planet would upset them. Does a Saudi get outraged that a particular high school teacher in Kansas is wearing slacks and short sleeves, beyond his general dislike and contempt for nonbelievers generally?

[panamajack]

Hydraulic Mining (http://www.consrv.ca.gov/cgs/information/publications/library/cd_98_001/Pages/a7195.aspx). Using a giant water cannon to blast away hillsides just to get a tiny bit of precious metal.

[glee]

I doubt that a golf course on another planet would upset them. Does a Saudi get outraged that a particular high school teacher in Kansas is wearing slacks and short sleeves, beyond his general dislike and contempt for nonbelievers generally?

:smack:

Obviously the golf course is on Dune - no matter how much watering it takes. :eek:

[Kobal2]

Kosher butchering would probably drive them bonkers, too. All that nice watery blood just spilled out and thrown away... on religious grounds ! GAH !

[Oakminster]

A water park.

[Scissorjack]

Bukkake

[Johnny Q]

Having diarrhea and taking a dump in the catch basin

[Declan]

It was an enclosed conservatory, in other words a closed cycle plant growing system. The amount of water lost to the outside would have been minimal.

From what I read in Dune, even if it was a perfect closed system,all water belongs to the tribe. The conservatory may have been concidered hoarding.

Declan

[Der Trihs]

A Sandmage ( from Sandmagic, an old short story by Orson Scott Card ) would offend just by his existence, much less what he'd do. A sandmage gains his magic by serving the desert and giving it what it "wants"; dryness and death. A sandmage would be committed to scattering what little water they have; he'd "teach" the sands to overrun and dry their farms, to insinuate itself everywhere like a live thing, to creep into and fill what wells they have, to mound up against that conservatory until the walls are breached and the sand pours in to scatter the water. A literal "servant of dryness" who gains powers from his destructiveness would be a walking water crime, I'd think.

[TruCelt]

I would think spitting toward his feet, like in the old westerns, would be the ultimate insult/outrage to a single Fremen. Don't know if the whole tribe would get in an uproar about it.

[Captain Carrot]

Las Vegas' tourist cooling system.

[Aquila Be]

From what I read in Dune, even if it was a perfect closed system,all water belongs to the tribe. The conservatory may have been concidered hoarding.

Declan

Perhaps, but it wasn't made clear in the context that it appeared in the novel. Particularly when you consider that the book also describes a really bone headed action taken by Duke Leto during a well attended official dinner. This was done at a time when he was trying to establish and consolidate his position on Dune. It would more likely have inspired a rebellion:

The Duke allowed his voice to trail off on the last line, took a deep drink from his water flagon, slammed it back onto the table . Water slopped over the brim onto the linen.
The others drank in embarrassed silence.
Again, the Duke lifted his water flagon, and this time, emptied its remaining half onto the floor, knowing that the others around the table must do the same.

It’s been years since I saw the original movie and can’t recall whether or not that scene was used or not. I haven’t seen the series but I’d be interested to know if this scene was used in it.

Just to veer slightly off topic, a bit of Dune related news from astrogeology.usgs (http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/HotTopics/index.php?/archives/369-New-Name,-Descriptor-Term,-and-Theme-Approved-for-Use-on-Titan.html), the descripter term planitia has been approved for use on Titan with the theme "Names of planets from the Dune series of science fiction novels by American author Frank Herbert (1920 - 1986)." The first planitia name on Titan has also been approved; Chusuk Planitia is located at 5.0S, 23.5W.

I’m not sure that a moon like Titan, awash in methane and oil, is really a good match for Dune.

[Grumman]

I would think spitting toward his feet, like in the old westerns, would be the ultimate insult/outrage to a single Fremen. Don't know if the whole tribe would get in an uproar about it.
No, that's actually considered a sign of respect. IIRC, it's an Atreides that gets outraged when a Fremen spits at his feet.

[jayjay]

The first planitia name on Titan has also been approved; Chusuk Planitia is located at 5.0S, 23.5W.

You'd think the first one would be Arrakis.

I’m not sure that a moon like Titan, awash in methane and oil, is really a good match for Dune.

Considering what Herbert meant melange to stand for, I think the match may be perfect.

[Kobal2]

Considering what Herbert meant melange to stand for, I think the match may be perfect.

Off topic : Keanu-style woah. I must be awfully slow, because I never made the parallel. You just blew my mind.

[Isamu]

A super-soaker yard fight.

[The Second Stone]

Southern California style watering down the sidewalk.

[Johnny Q]

Nobody's mentioned flush toilets yet?

[Chimera]

There is a scene in The Three Amigos where they're out in the desert on their horses. Steve Martin takes a drink (and I believe gets only a drop). Then Martin Short pulls out his canteen, looking like he's dying of thirst and gets a mouthful of sand from the canteen. Then the two of them look over at Chevy Chase, who takes his full canteen, washes up a bit, gargles and spits, then throws the mostly full canteen onto the ground. The other two look frustrated.

Fremen would kill him for that.

[Harmonious Discord]

Nobody's mentioned flush toilets yet?

Who would make those when they can just poo in their suits.

[msmith537]

Sorry for the hijack, but is there some particular reason that the planet Arakis, home of the most precious resource in the known universe, can't simply import whatever water it needs? I mean it ain't exactly rare in the rest of the galaxy.


Oh and I'm going with a Slip N' Slide.

[jayjay]

Sorry for the hijack, but is there some particular reason that the planet Arakis, home of the most precious resource in the known universe, can't simply import whatever water it needs? I mean it ain't exactly rare in the rest of the galaxy.


Oh and I'm going with a Slip N' Slide.

The Fremen control the planet (once you get out of the cities). The Fremen actually have more access to the spice than the government. The Fremen bribe the Spacing Guild NOT to orbit weather satellites.

The reason is that if Arrakis became non-arid, the source of the spice would die. The sandworms create the spice. Water is fatal to the sandworms. So: Water=no spice.

Another reason is that the Fremen consider Arrakis (or actually, Dune) their testing ground. It's what's kept them a strong people for so long. It's their religion, in a way.

[Irishman]

Grumman said:
No, that's actually considered a sign of respect. IIRC, it's an Atreides that gets outraged when a Fremen spits at his feet.

IIRC, it isn't spit at his feet, it's spit on his face. Which has to be explained as an act of giving water. Though that still seems a poor way to show respect and giving water. Maybe pissing in his stillsuit would be better. :D

Spitting on the ground would be wasting water. So that might be taken as an insult. "I'd rather waste this water than share it with you."

Aquila Be said:
Particularly when you consider that the book also describes a really bone headed action taken by Duke Leto during a well attended official dinner. This was done at a time when he was trying to establish and consolidate his position on Dune. It would more likely have inspired a rebellion:

I think you misunderstand. This occurs after Duke Atreides learns that the spilled water is taken out and given to the poor. He does this to force there to be a lot of water for the poor, rather than a small quantity. This is done as an act for the people, and is one of the things that the Fremen are aware of.

Though it may not put him in good with the power base in the city.

And yes, the spitting scene was in Lynch's Dune. I don't recall about the Sci Fi version, but possibly.

[jayjay]

IIRC, it isn't spit at his feet, it's spit on his face. Which has to be explained as an act of giving water. Though that still seems a poor way to show respect and giving water. Maybe pissing in his stillsuit would be better. :D

Stilgar spits on the conference table.

[jackdavinci]

Watching the Tank Girl movie.

[furryman]

Watching the Tank Girl movie.
Watching Waterworld.

[muldoonthief]

I think you misunderstand. This occurs after Duke Atreides learns that the spilled water is taken out and given to the poor. He does this to force there to be a lot of water for the poor, rather than a small quantity. This is done as an act for the people, and is one of the things that the Fremen are aware of.



No. Before the dinner, Leto is told that its customary for guests to clean their hands in a large vat of water, dry their hands with towels, then fling the towels into the street for water beggars to chew. He coldly orders that this custom stops now, and any beggar who comes to the door is to be given a full cup of water from the vat instead. The attendant is angry, because she had intended to sell the towels. Leto places a guard to make sure his orders are followed.

At the dinner, he turns his water cup over as he says "Here I remain!" indicating that he is now the major power on Arrakis. All the other diners are forced to do the same. IIRC, Liet Kynes, or one of the smugglers, pours the water into a container in his robes.

[TruCelt]

[QUOTE=Irishman;11479579]Grumman said:


Spitting on the ground would be wasting water. So that might be taken as an insult. "I'd rather waste this water than share it with you."
[QUOTE]

Yeah, or like you're daring them to let it be wasted. "Let's see if you're desperate enough to crawl around and collect this" sort of thing.

I'm really surprised by how much I've forgotten. I think I need to read it again!

[kelly5078]

Courtesy flush.

[Machine Elf]

Washing your car.

Using your hose to wash grass/dirt off of your driveway.

Taking a bath.

Ornamental water fountains.

Swimming pools.

[Irishman]

Crappy memory.

[jackdavinci]

Watching Waterworld.

Because of the water element or just because it's such a bad movie? lol

Seriously though, I'm surprised Frank Herbert didn't come with the device from Tank Girl that you stab someone with and it sucks out the person's water. Either as a Fremen weapon or weapon against them.

[Reply]

Making waterslides out of gutted baby sandworms.