"Old movie" accent?

[Reply]

As a non-native speaker of English, I find it difficult to comprehend anything spoken in old American movies (from the 60s on back to the black & white era). The same thing applies to television shows, presidential addresses, etc. The only example I can think of off the top of my head is FDR's fireside chats (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFvrL_nqx2c), but this particular speaking style is VERY common in media of that time; even recently-made "era" movies try to mimic it. It drives me nuts and ruins a lot of perfectly good movies for me unless I can find a subtitle track.

Now... I'm not just imagining this, am I? Does anyone else notice this? If there is indeed a difference, is it because of a certain regional accent? A pan-American evolution in speech? A side effect of early audio technology?

[statsman1982]

I think what you're describing is the Mid-Atlantic accent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-Atlantic_English) . William F. Buckley Jr., a notable American conservative, also had this to an extent.

[Johnny L.A.]

I think statsman1982 is probably correct. You may also want to check out the What is Julia Child's accent? (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=527954) thread.

Other common accents are from around the New York area. Many lower-status characters had a 'Brooklyn' accent.

[Derleth]

I think statsman1982 is probably correct. You may also want to check out the What is Julia Child's accent? (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=527954) thread.

Other common accents are from around the New York area. Many lower-status characters had a 'Brooklyn' accent.Do you mean the 'toity-toid and toid' accent? Does anyone still have that natively?

[Johnny L.A.]

Do you mean the 'toity-toid and toid' accent? Does anyone still have that natively?

I've never heard anyone with that accent in real life. But then again, I'm a Leftie. (Coast, that is. ;) )

I've heard the phrase you used, but I can't remember if it was in a film or a parody. I was actually thinking of Bugs Bunny's accent when I posted. Or Leo Gorcey.

EDIT: Come to think of it, BB might have said 'Toity-toid and Toid.'

[Sage Rat]

If you watch Mission: Impossible, the lead actor is replaced after the first season. The original guy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Hill) has the 50s/60s accent, while as the new guy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Graves_(actor)) has a modern California accent.

I don't know if Steven Hill still has it, but he's still around and acting, so you can probably check.

[Nzinga, Seated]

Velma Mulholland. She was a character on In Living Color. I tried so hard to find some video. She was a woman from the dramatic black and white movies from the 1940s. She spoke in the way that the OP seems to be describing, but I can't imagine how he figures it ruins a movie! I love that accent so much, and I often try to duplicate it to make my husband laugh (he never does), but I have a hard time coming up with all of the witty, fast dialogue that goes so well with the accent.

[Argent Towers]

It's more than just an accent, it's a style of speaking and accenting certain sounds and words. Listen to the Empire Day Messages (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JyC6qw2D_s&feature=related) of 1923 from King George V and Queen Mary. Even though they have British accents, they have the same kind of anachronistic tone and rhythm in their speech as in the FDR video.

[Derleth]

Argent Towers: That is an unnatural enunciation and cadence adopted due to the lack of good microphones until a point well into the 20th Century. It explains part of this, but not all of it.

[WotNot]

It's more than just an accent, it's a style of speaking and accenting certain sounds and words. Listen to the Empire Day Messages (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JyC6qw2D_s&feature=related) of 1923 from King George V and Queen Mary. Even though they have British accents, they have the same kind of anachronistic tone and rhythm in their speech as in the FDR video.

That's a good example, I think, because it's clearer (at least to me) that a large part of what we're hearing as “odd” is the effect of someone reading slowly and clearly from a prepared script. I suspect that they may both be making an extra effort to enunciate clearly, too, for the benefit of this new-fangled wireless broadcasting technology. FDR sounds a little more relaxed and informal than George V, but I'd be surprised if he sounded quite like that when he wasn't speaking to the nation.

There have been changes in accents over the last century, and in speech rhythms and delivery, but I think that for the purposes of the OP, it's more relevant that in acting and public speaking, there's been a shift towards a more naturalistic style of delivery.

[Martini Enfield]

It certainly seems to be true that people spoke differently in the first half of the 20th Century than the latter- a lot of actors seem to have used something that 1950s Public Safety Movie Narrator voice, even in Australia and New Zealand.

I can only surmise that it might have been part of some sort of aim on the part of the Government/Establishment to make sure that early TV and Radio was "Respectable", so you had people who sounded very well-spoken and educated on the air, instead of Cletus The Farmer or Juan The Mexican Immigrant.

[GuanoLad]

Are we talking about a kind of received pronunciation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Received_Pronunciation)?

[Martini Enfield]

Are we talking about a kind of received pronunciation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Received_Pronunciation)?

That's certainly the term for the UK/Australian/NZ accent you hear in old news broadcasts and "respectable" movies. I'm not sure what the US equivalent is, though.

[Zsofia]

I'd really like the OP to watch A Streetcar Named Desire and compare Vivien Leigh and Marlon Brando's voices.

[Claire Beauchamp]

There are a few things going on here.

First, a lot of public figures (FDR, Julia Child) had "patrician" accents, a phenomenon that has faded somewhat in American speech.

Second, if you're talking about a movie, acting and public speaking styles have changed. A lot of early actors were stage actors, where projection and diction were important as there were no microphones. So, a lot of those habits carried over to film. Also, a lot of actors took on that patrician/vaguely British-ish accent so as to appear "high class." Add that to the fact that acting was a lot less naturalistic than it came to be in the 60's/70's and it's a pretty significant shift.

As for Brando vs. Leigh ... Leigh WAS British, you know.

[Zsofia]

Yeah, but that's not what makes her sound so different from him in Streetcar.

[Chez Guevara]

It certainly seems to be true that people spoke differently in the first half of the 20th Century than the latter- a lot of actors seem to have used something that 1950s Public Safety Movie Narrator voice, even in Australia and New Zealand.Check out Mr. Cholmondley-Warner, and especially Grayson, for a nice parody of this speaking style. The relevant footage is from 0-50 sec.

YouTube Link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sx_6WekXKcM).

[GilaB]

I was recently in Newport, RI, where I toured The Elms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Elms_%28Newport,_Rhode_Island%29), one of the old mansion 'cottages.' It has an audio tour, and on it, you can hear John Drexel III (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/22/us/22drexel.html) speak about his experiences visiting there as a young man, when the original owners still lived there. I was struck by how much Drexel sounded like the aristocrats in the background of Marx Brothers movies, with the same accent that I think you're talking about. He wasn't an actor, and I don't think that he was reading from a script as he is reminiscing.

[chappachula]

an unnatural enunciation and cadence due to the lack of good microphones .

there's also another unnatural aspect to the speaking in old Tv/ movies:
The actors always spoke one at a time.

First one speaks, and then after a pause, the next actor speaks.It just doesn't sound natural. In real life--and in all modern movies--, conversation flows: people interrupt each other, or start speaking at the same time, or one screams louder in order to be heard over the background noise., etc

I assume the old way was due to the primitive sound systems, but it might also have been a carry-over from the days of theater with no microphones.

[Terminus Est]

I don't think it's simply a matter of having an old-time patrician accent, since both Abbott and Costello have a similar manner of speaking (e.g., Who's On First? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfmvkO5x6Ng)), even though Abbott's accent is more hoity-toity than Costello's.

[Never Say Dice]

I have difficulty with British accents in movies from the 30's. All the British Hitchcock movies are only comprehended when seen with "closed captioning" subtitles to fill in the difficult words.

[pravnik]

That's certainly the term for the UK/Australian/NZ accent you hear in old news broadcasts and "respectable" movies. I'm not sure what the US equivalent is, though.The smoothed over Midwestern accent, sometimes called General American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_American).

[Slithy Tove]

Is the word we're looking for "stentorian?" (named after the minor hero of the Illiad who had the voice of 50 men)

Known as the "God Voice," it wasn't required that one be upper-class English (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAtut_ex9mw&feature=related), or East Coast American (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhlzdjPGxrs), or even American Southern (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZLvSnr6s50), just that the speaker thinks himself to be God (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRmO_BL1l88)

[Irishman]

The most consistent thing I see in those clips has nothing to do with accent or pronunciation and everything to do with piss-poor audio quality. Seriously, that FDR bit and the King George and Mary bits are hard to parse because of the static and stuff.

[Nzinga, Seated]

I don't think it's simply a matter of having an old-time patrician accent, since both Abbott and Costello have a similar manner of speaking (e.g., Who's On First? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfmvkO5x6Ng)), even though Abbott's accent is more hoity-toity than Costello's.

That is one of those skits that people parody or tribute or whatever over the years, and you realize it is very clever. But then you see the real deal after about 20 years of first seeing it, and you realize it is comedy GOLD!

[Serenata67]

The smoothed over Midwestern accent, sometimes called General American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_American).

Even so, as a Midwesterner myself, the pronunciation various quite a bit. In Wisconsin (not WES-consin, as I've heard as far north as IL... there's no E in WISCONSIN), we pronounce "bag" "baeg" not "bahg" ... and it's not a sack. I'm not talking about the way northern Yooper (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yooper_dialect)dialect or the Scandanavian dialects that pepper the Midwest.

[Rayne Man]

Queen Elizabeth II must be one of the last people who still speak with that 1930's accent:- Christmas message (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gOdaPvGsw0&feature=fvw)

[Beware of Doug]

Northeastern US educated-sounding speech used to be privileged over all others, because educated Northeasterners were our de facto ruling class, and modernity itself flowed from the urban Northeast. The center of US population itself was somewhere in Pennsylvania, and the center of literacy, electrification, autos, radios and picture houses was probably further east still.

New York and New Yorkers, especially, had near total control over the culture - high and low alike. In early radio, the Midwest or other "interior" accents, with their more pronounced r sounds, were not considered fit for big time announcers or actors. Even "coastal Southern" voices, with their soft r's, were preferred to the harsh nasal clarity of the central states.

This began to change in the years leading up to WW2, when program formats in general began to become more informal and the sources of creative content began to scatter. By the mid 40s, places like Chicago and Los Angeles began to originate more radio programming. A newer generation of on-air talent came on, and the acceptable range of radio (and in turn, TV) speech moved west.

[jasg]

I don't know if the OP is referring to these accents, but I have long wondered if sounds like #8 & #12 on this playlist (http://www.soundboard.com/sb/1930_history_sounds.aspx) on the SoundBoard website are due to an accent shift or limitations of the audio recording technology of the time.

[DMark]

I know the accent you are referring to, and it certainly does seem to date older films, but I like hearing it.

I also like when old movies have that sort of blaring, loud, single speaker quality. Even with all of the new technology in sound, there is still something dramatic about hearing those police sirens, that "reporter voice" and background noises from those old mono speakers. Maybe it is a throwback to the old days when I would go to drive in movies and have that box attached to my car window, or when I would see those Saturday morning movies in the theater, especially those trailers that were always 100% better than the actual films.

[jasg]

Ahh, those trailers...

Years ago, I recall attending a Saturday afternoon showing of nothing but trailers at an old theatre in Berkeley (can't recall the name). It organized by was genre, with a few by director and one of just Oscar winners.

Took hours, but the time flew by... one of those cinematic experiences I'll never forget.

IIRC, the owner of the theatre at that time (late 70's) had pioneered inexpensive double bills of related films and did a masterful job at it. When asked about all the imitators springing up, he said that they had no idea of how to create meaningful double feature. He went on to say that he expected to open the paper someday and see a competitor offering National Velvet and Equus as a double feature - after all, they are both about horses...

[Spectre of Pithecanthropus]

There are a few things going on here.

First, a lot of public figures (FDR, Julia Child) had "patrician" accents, a phenomenon that has faded somewhat in American speech.

.Oddly enough when I think of FDR's speaking cadences, it always sounds as if he's simply struggling to be audible, as in "The ONLY thing we have to FEAR is FEAR ITSELF.

I think there are a few different mechanisms at work here. First, the "patrician accent" as noted. However, working class accents could also befuddle modern ears. Given the heavy Eastern metropolitan cultural bias of the era, news reporters, cabbies, and other salt-of-the-earth types, not to mention thugs and criminals, generally had East Coast working-class accents, usually New York. A lot of the comics who came into films from vaudeville, like the Three Stooges and the Marxes came from working-class immigrant neighborhoods on Manhattan Island (where their way of speaking was no doubt also influenced heavily by their immigrant, non-native speaker parents and others in their neighborhoods).

[foolsguinea]

Is the word we're looking for "stentorian?" (named after the minor hero of the Illiad who had the voice of 50 men)

Known as the "God Voice," it wasn't required that one be upper-class English (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAtut_ex9mw&feature=related), or East Coast American (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhlzdjPGxrs), or even American Southern (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZLvSnr6s50), just that the speaker thinks himself to be God (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRmO_BL1l88)I love that style of speaking. It's good preaching voice.

[Walloon]

I'd really like the OP to watch A Streetcar Named Desire and compare Vivien Leigh and Marlon Brando's voices.Ah, but there's even a more interesting contrast of the three different voices Vivien Leigh uses: her everyday Blanche voice, drawling and flirtatious; her bitter voice (such as when talking about the loss of Belle Reve), lower and unaffected; and her going-around-the-bend of insanity voice, high and flute-like.

All of the Hollywood studios employed vocal coaches from the late 1920s to the late 1950s (parodied in Singin' in the Rain), and actors were expected to take lessons and speak as taught. A good example is Marilyn Monroe. In most of her pictures of the 1950s into the early 1960s she uses an overly careful diction, which makes her vocal style easy to parody (it's not just a breathy voice). But that wasn't her natural speech, and in unedited takes from her uncompleted film Something's Got to Five (1962), you can see her switch from that speaking style to her normal voice as soon as the director calls "cut". One film in which she used a natural speaking style throughout was as a disillusioned divorcée in her last completed film, The Misfits (1961), a film that itself is directed in a modern, naturalistic style.

[AK84]

Ah the good old days, when everyone spoke clearly and enunciated everything.

[singular1]

Do you mean the 'toity-toid and toid' accent? Does anyone still have that natively?

You need to watch more reality TV. You can hear every accent in the country eventually.;)