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yorick73
09-12-2009, 05:39 PM
Does the Republican Party recieve any Federal grants? No? Lucky thing.

Spare us the sarcasm...if you have some point to make then feel free.

MsRobyn
09-12-2009, 06:25 PM
But that's all it is, a perception. Firmly based on an innuendo, which is in turn founded on suggestion.

I've met these people, they are freshly scrubbed liberals with used cars and threadbare, second-hand suits. So earnest they set my teeth on edge, so sincere they make me want to drink. These people do not hatch plots, they hatch free range chickens.

They have one crucial weakness: they are poltically disposed to trust the poor, they suffer from the unfortunate misperception that poverty enobles a person. It does not, if anything, poverty corrupts and degrades. The very reasons why we are determined to stamp it out, Goddess willing.

(Its somewhat reminiscent of the radical black movements of the late 60's, who got tangled up with the goofy idea that black criminals in prison were all political prisoners, that ripping off the Man was a legitimate political action. That a thug steeped in the paranoia of prison life was somehow more "real".)

Its a delusion, of course, poor people are no more trustworthy than anyone else. A sincerely dedicated person is a lot more trustworthy, but there isn't any blood test for that.

Bless their hearts, they mean well.

Yabbut perceptions are pretty damaging when all you've got to trade on is your good name. The Census has one major problem right now, and that is credibility. I can explain that I (or any Census worker) can go to prison for five years and/or fork over a quarter-mil if I so much as tell anyone the color of the carpeting in the guy's house, but if all the guy knows is that ACORN is somehow involved, all the assurances in the world mean approximately dick.

I'll give you an example. I'm essentially a shill for the Census Bureau. I'm supposed to meet the public, reassure them that the Census is harmless, and maybe give them a nice tote bag. Most of the people I talk to are pretty cool about it. They know what the Census is about and will most likely fill the questionnaire out and send it back. Talking to them is probably pointless because they're going to do what they're supposed to do, or at most, they'll need a gentle nudge from the nice census taker who comes by to talk to them if they've forgotten to mail the questionnaire back.

But there are those who are, shall we say, a little paranoid about the ACORN/Census connection. They're not especially eager to talk to a census taker because as far as they're concerned, the census taker is working for ACORN, and as far as they're concerned, ACORN is not to be trusted. I can remind them about the penalties for disclosing information, and that we're federal employees, just like the mailman. But they don't care. They know what they've heard from the right-wing echo chamber, and that's all they need to know.

But yeah, some of the lefties are so earnest that they make my teeth hurt. And I hang out with these people.

elucidator
09-12-2009, 06:43 PM
"I can deal with my enemies, Heaven protect me from my allies."

- Disraeli

even sven
09-12-2009, 07:20 PM
So what is the theory here?

ACORN on the whole supports prostitution and would like to turn our cities into brothels?

Everyone who works for ACORN is a potential pimp?

ACORN just likes pimps?

Does anyone really believe that ACORN advocates child prostitution? I don't really get what this is trying to prove, besides the not-so-shocking "some ACORN workers show bad judgment when put in odd situations."

Bricker
09-12-2009, 07:26 PM
So what is the theory here?

ACORN on the whole supports prostitution and would like to turn our cities into brothels?

Everyone who works for ACORN is a potential pimp?

ACORN just likes pimps?

Does anyone really believe that ACORN advocates child prostitution? I don't really get what this is trying to prove, besides the not-so-shocking "some ACORN workers show bad judgment when put in odd situations."

No, what this shows (in my view) is the likelihood that ACORN fosters a corporate culture that tells its workers that their primary mission is to help the people that come to them for help, regardless of the context.

That's a problem when the people that come to them for help are engaged in crime.

elucidator
09-12-2009, 07:54 PM
Now, friend Bricker, I know you have seen some of the seamier side of things, what with being a public defender, and all. Probably have a pretty good idea what a pimp looks like. So do I, for very different reasons which are not remotely relevent. But I know what one looks like too.

Here's a picture of James O'Keefe, who swears that he convinced those ACORN women that he was a pimp and elicited illegal advice, etc. You look at this guy, and you tell me: what is the liklihood that any inner-city type person would believe, for one second, that this American cheese with mayo white boy, is a pimp.

http://biggovernment.com/author/jokeefe/

OK, maybe you can believe it, but I know you're gonna have to work for it.

dropzone
09-12-2009, 08:43 PM
But he's not going to try to sell me life insurance, is he? I mean, pimps and hos are one thing (actually two things, er, two groups of human beings) but insurance salesmen are something (note the lack of a qualifier) else altogether. Cuz he really looks like he has a backseat full of brochures from Aetna.

elucidator
09-12-2009, 08:56 PM
Really? Reminds me of a guy who thinks Jesus wants him to sell Amway.

E-Sabbath
09-12-2009, 09:09 PM
No, what this shows (in my view) is the likelihood that ACORN fosters a corporate culture that tells its workers that their primary mission is to help the people that come to them for help, regardless of the context.

That's a problem when the people that come to them for help are engaged in crime.

I am going to agree with and support this.

MsRobyn
09-12-2009, 09:27 PM
Really? Reminds me of a guy who thinks Jesus wants him to sell Amway.

Wait. So Jesus doesn't want me to sell Amway? Now what am I supposed to do with all this crap? :p:D

elucidator
09-12-2009, 09:32 PM
Hmmm. You can probably get away with selling it to Jews and atheists. Maybe agnostics, not quite sure....

jayjay
09-12-2009, 10:27 PM
But there are those who are, shall we say, a little paranoid about the ACORN/Census connection. They're not especially eager to talk to a census taker because as far as they're concerned, the census taker is working for ACORN, and as far as they're concerned, ACORN is not to be trusted. I can remind them about the penalties for disclosing information, and that we're federal employees, just like the mailman. But they don't care. They know what they've heard from the right-wing echo chamber, and that's all they need to know.

I'm trying desperately to find it in my heart to feel bad that the right wing (and, consequently, very red states) will be severely undercounted (and underrepresented in Congress) because so many of them are credulous, paranoid idiots, but I'm having SO much trouble managing it...

even sven
09-12-2009, 10:32 PM
No, what this shows (in my view) is the likelihood that ACORN fosters a corporate culture that tells its workers that their primary mission is to help the people that come to them for help, regardless of the context.

That's a problem when the people that come to them for help are engaged in crime.

Okay, so they are a little too helpful.

They could probably use a good organization-wide course on the ethics of social workers.

I can understand that. I've done my share of social work and at times I have crossed some lines. I've brought gifts to the forced marriages of crying pre-teen brides. I've clapped at female-circumcision ceremonies. Of course I find both of these things abhorrent and have spent a lot of time and energy fighting them. But when there is fucked up stuff all around you, sometimes you lose perspective. You spend so much time trying to do good in your context that you lose your ability to step out of that context and say "hey, wait, this stuff is horrific and I need to step outside my role and stop it." I can understand how that happens, because it's happened to me.

Maybe there is no excuse for that. Luckily it's a problem that is easily fixed. I don't think any of us believe these ACORN employees are rotten to the bone. They are simply misguided. A simple corporate ethics program could easily stop that.

Doesn't prove much of anything about ACORN as an agency, and certainly doesn't prove anything Barrack Obama.

Dallas Jones
09-12-2009, 11:19 PM
But there are those who are, shall we say, a little paranoid about the ACORN/Census connection. They're not especially eager to talk to a census taker because as far as they're concerned, the census taker is working for ACORN, and as far as they're concerned, ACORN is not to be trusted. I can remind them about the penalties for disclosing information, and that we're federal employees, just like the mailman. But they don't care. They know what they've heard from the right-wing echo chamber, and that's all they need to know.

But yeah, some of the lefties are so earnest that they make my teeth hurt. And I hang out with these people.

The Census Bureau severed ties with ACORN on Friday, effective immediately.

http://www.mytwocensus.com/

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D9ALH8601&show_article=1

Bricker
09-13-2009, 05:30 AM
Doesn't prove much of anything about ACORN as an agency, and certainly doesn't prove anything Barrack Obama.

Which is probably why you could search this thread, or indeed my entire posting history, in vain for anything that says this has anything to do with Barack Obama, or indeed that this incident has anything to do with the vote registration business. I know the thread went in that direction, but not because of my OP, and in fact I posted several pages ago asking that we return our attention to this issue at hand,NOT the distraction of the vote business.

Lightnin'
09-13-2009, 08:06 AM
They should not receive one more taxpayer dime until they are fully investigated.

Blackwater may have been involved in child prostitution (http://rawstory.com/08/news/2009/08/07/blackwater-provided-child-prostitutes/)- they should not receive one more taxpayer dime until they are fully investigated.

The US military may have tortured detainees (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/13/AR2009011303372.html)- they should not receive one more taxpayer dime until they are fully investigated.

Are you sure this is the tack you wish to take?

Left Hand of Dorkness
09-13-2009, 08:50 AM
Shit yeah. I'll throw ACORN under the bus if I can duct-tape Blackwater to them first.

lee
09-13-2009, 10:27 AM
No, what this shows (in my view) is the likelihood that ACORN fosters a corporate culture that tells its workers that their primary mission is to help the people that come to them for help, regardless of the context.

That's a problem when the people that come to them for help are engaged in crime.

So, ACORN does need to set boundries for their workers better, and by firing these two publicly, it seems they may be doing just that. On the whole though, I don't think it is a bad idea to have an organization that helps people regardless of context. One of the horrible things about being in a situation outside the law is that there is very little that prevents you from slipping further and further outside.

Advising someone on how to treat their teen prostitutes is pretty horrific, but the advice at least to keep them in school and clean helps to draw them back into society, and keeps them visible so that it is possible at least that if they are injured or killed, it may be noticed. It gives them daily access to adults to whom they could report their circumstance.

yorick73
09-13-2009, 12:53 PM
Blackwater may have been involved in child prostitution[/URL]- they should not receive one more taxpayer dime until they are fully investigated.

Absolutely.


The US military may have tortured detainees- they should not receive one more taxpayer dime until they are fully investigated.

Are you sure this is the tack you wish to take?

This one is absurd and you know it. Not only is the military an extension of the federal government, but justice is already planning to look into interrogation techniques, etc. It's also amusing that, when the military is accused of torture or anything else, the first question asked is 'how far up the chain of command did this order come from?' But, with ACORN, the left just assumes that this is an individual matter and that the individuals breaking the law were just too idealistic to realize they were doing anything wrong. Laughable.

elucidator
09-13-2009, 01:54 PM
No, it is born of some familiarity with the organization itself, which one suspects you are innocent of. The US military is, well, military: it has a heirarchical structure with clearly defined chains of command. Orders, policies, and techniques descend from above, the chain of responsibility is rigid and defined.

As well, we have already settled the law on this ourselves. It was we who established the principal of international law that a commander is responsible for the actions of his subordinates even if he is not directly and personally aware of those actions. Ignorance is no defense, if you don't know what your subordinates are up to, tough shit, you are supposed to know. (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomoyuki_Yamashita)

Then, of course, there is the additional cute wrinkle that not all who may be culpable are military personnel, there were "contractors" involved, whatever that means.

ACORN is more of an umbrella organization, like many (if not all!) lefty institutions, rigid lines of hierarchy and enforcement are not our thing. We leave that to those who lack our capacity for independent thought and are more comfortable being told what is right.

And, of course, the certain verdict of guilt which you are dependent upon is yet a bit murky, to my gimlet eye. That white boy couldn't convince your grandmother that he was a pimp, much less a couple of urban black ladies who know one when they see one. Mr O'Keefe shows great promise in the mendacious arts, I see a bright future for him following the path set by the late, great Lee Atwater.

gonzomax
09-13-2009, 02:37 PM
Read post #222 above. As long as they are the recipients of federal grants then they should be investigated if there is any evidence of wrongdoing. Not just one video but years worth of scandals.

Those so called scandals were right wing noise. They have been pretty clean for a huge organization. Accusing them of voter fraud had been a BRICKER and right wing sport. It has been BS . But screaming at them enough makes people who hear the noise think there must be something behind it. But it is not true.
The repubs have accused them of fraud over and over, but since they lack evidence, the prosecutors have thrown the cases out. Then of course the repubs fired the attorney generals who did not follow dictates and prosecute anyway. It is yet another right wing witch hunt.

Lightnin'
09-13-2009, 03:13 PM
This one is absurd and you know it. Not only is the military an extension of the federal government, but justice is already planning to look into interrogation techniques, etc. It's also amusing that, when the military is accused of torture or anything else, the first question asked is 'how far up the chain of command did this order come from?' But, with ACORN, the left just assumes that this is an individual matter and that the individuals breaking the law were just too idealistic to realize they were doing anything wrong. Laughable.

Nope, not absurd- and you know it. Just because the military is an extension of the federal government does NOT excuse it from obeying the law. If ACORN, as a whole, is held responsible for the supposed actions of two of their employees (out of how many thousands?), then the US Military is responsible for the actions of its enlisted. Remember- the so-called evidence against ACORN was illegally gained... why do you give it such weight?

And you know, it seems to me that you (and the Right in general) IS asking how far up the chain of command ACORN's supposed actions go. ACORN has already been tried and found guilty in your eyes- on the basis of such little evidence that it would be thrown out of court. There is far more evidence that the US Military has been acting illegally... but because they are the GOP darling, they get a pass. ACORN, though? We don't need no stinkin' evidence- string 'em up!

Bricker
09-13-2009, 04:37 PM
The repubs have accused them of fraud over and over, but since they lack evidence, the prosecutors have thrown the cases out.

I don't want to feed the hijack of this thread to talk about voter fraud cases, but neither will I let you post completely untrue claims without comment.

There have been multiple criminal convictions of ACORN workers for voting-related criminal fraud-type crimes.

That's "conviction" as in "NOT thrown out."

elucidator
09-13-2009, 05:27 PM
I find your lack of cites disturbing....

Sam Stone
09-13-2009, 05:48 PM
I already cited multiple cases where ACORN workers were convicted of voter registration fraud.

Here's a fun cite: Acorn Fraud Map (http://www.rottenacorn.com/activityMap.html)

Among the CONVICTIONS listed:


Two ex-ACORN employees were convicted in Denver of perjury for submitting false voter registrations.
An ACORN employee in West Reading, PA, was sentenced to up to 23 months in prison for identity theft and tampering with records. A second ACORN worker pleaded not guilty to the same charges and is free on $10,000 bail.
Three ACORN employees pleaded guilty, and four more were charged, in the worst case of voter registration fraud in Washington state history. More than 2,000 fraudulent voter registration cards were submitted by the group during a voter registration drive.



Aside from those actual convictions listed, there are numerous indictments and charges against ACORN employees that are still in the courts.

Here's another voter registration fraud conviction (http://www.wtvynews4.com/news/headlines/56646922.html) just a few days ago.

Oh, and look: A DIRECTOR of ACORN was also convicted of fraud (http://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/2009/aug/acorn-director-pleads-guilty):

The attorney generalís office turned up the heat Monday on a national organization at the heart of a voter registration fraud investigation.

Christopher Edwards, 33, the former Las Vegas field director for the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now, or ACORN, pleaded guilty to two gross misdemeanor counts of conspiracy to commit the crime of compensation for registration of voters.

As part of a plea agreement, Edwards will testify against the other two defendants in the case ó ACORN and its former regional director, Amy Busefink.

The anti-poverty organization has local chapters in 100 cities across the country and national offices in New Orleans, New York and Washington.

State investigators consider Edwards the mastermind of an illegal incentive program at the local ACORN office that, with the approval of Busefink and national ACORN officials, encouraged the collection of fraudulent voter registration forms during the 2008 campaign season.

So... Paying for registrations. Remember when you guys said ACORN doesn't do that? This guy is now implicating people high up in the ACORN organization. But wait, there's more:

About the same time in Pittsburgh, a half-dozen ACORN workers were charged with violating a similar Pennsylvania law prohibiting quotas and other incentives in voter registration drives.

Yeah, this organization is just clean as a whistle, isn't it? Who WOULDN'T want it heavily involved in election activities and the census? They're all just doe-eyed innocent liberals who want the best for everyone.

elucidator
09-13-2009, 06:07 PM
http://lasvegas.craigslist.org/pol/1332364718.html

...Lawyers for the grass-roots community organizing group ACORN and its staff scoffed Tuesday at a plea agreement state prosecutors made with the man alleged to be the mastermind of a phony voter registration scheme....

Edwards was ACORN's Las Vegas field director during the 2008 election season and admitted to creating the bonus program at the heart of the voter registration controversy, according to court documents.

Busefink's defense attorney, Kevin Stolworthy, said Tuesday that state prosecutors "are trying to work their way up the food chain, but the food chain stops with him (Edwards)."
Authorities alleged that Edwards ran an incentive program known as "Blackjack" or "21+" that rewarded employees with $5 extra per shift if they brought in 21 or more completed voter registration cards.

Such an incentive program is prohibited by Nevada law, which states it is "unlawful for a person to provide compensation for registering voters that is based upon the total number of voters a person registers."...

(emphasis added to deceive the reader)

Please note: the crime alleged was incentivizing for more registrations, not false registrations.

Wow. Pretty major stuff there, Sam. The guy pulls down a $500 fine and community service, totally huge. Too bad he wasn't Attorney General, he could have got a Medal of Freedom.....

So, you missed this part, huh? Managed to find those cites, couldn't find this one? Gee, I just Googled Amy Busefink, and there it was. Don't know how it escaped your notice.

Snowboarder Bo
09-13-2009, 06:16 PM
Oh, and look: A DIRECTOR of ACORN was also convicted of fraud (http://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/2009/aug/acorn-director-pleads-guilty)

I just wanted to say, none of the text you "quoted" is from the link you provided.

Is that fraud?

:dubious:

Snowboarder Bo
09-13-2009, 06:19 PM
Aside from those actual convictions listed, there are numerous indictments and charges against ACORN employees that are still in the courts.

Here's another voter registration fraud conviction (http://www.wtvynews4.com/news/headlines/56646922.html) just a few days ago.

Nowhere in that article about Rosie Lyles does it mention ACORN.

Some people would say this shows a pattern of fraud in your posts about ACORN's alleged fraud.

Left Hand of Dorkness
09-13-2009, 06:35 PM
Nowhere in that article about Rosie Lyles does it mention ACORN.

Some people would say this shows a pattern of fraud in your posts about ACORN's alleged fraud.Huh. I figured it was just left out of the article--but another more in-depth article (http://www.tuscaloosanews.com/article/20070817/LATEST/70817026?Title=Two-accused-of-voter-fraud-in-Hale-County) I found when googling the name also didn't turn up any ACORN connection.

Sam, I hope you show up either to apologize unreservedly for including that link, or to explain why you included it. It kinda calls your other evidence into question.

elucidator
09-13-2009, 06:38 PM
...A voter fraud investigation in Hale County has led to a guilty plea by a Greensboro woman. Attorney General Troy King said Rosie Lyles pleaded guilty Monday to third-degree criminal possession of a forged instrument with intent to defraud. The instrument was a forged affidavit of an absentee voter.

Lyles was sentenced to two years on probation. During that time, she is prohibited from participating in any absentee voting or voter registration activity. She must also pay about $400 in court costs....

http://www.abc3340.com/news/stories/0909/655463.html

Oh, sure, its only one vote registration in one country of South Carolina, but what if there was one of those in every county in America! Thousands, I tell you, thousands!

The full weight of her sentence, which might be offered on a charge of shoplifting, is richly deserved! And don't even think of trying to distract us with stories about US Attorney's being pressured to file bogus voter fraud charges to embarass Democratic candidates, this is about the dreadful threat of ACORN, and we will not be distracted by trivialities! No sir!

elucidator
09-13-2009, 06:39 PM
Huh. I figured it was just left out of the article--but another more in-depth article (http://www.tuscaloosanews.com/article/20070817/LATEST/70817026?Title=Two-accused-of-voter-fraud-in-Hale-County) I found when googling the name also didn't turn up any ACORN connection.

Sam, I hope you show up either to apologize unreservedly for including that link, or to explain why you included it. It kinda calls your other evidence into question.

Great minds think alike. So, apparently, do twisted minds.

Yer pal,
e.

Left Hand of Dorkness
09-13-2009, 06:42 PM
Okay, this is a little off-track, but I was trying to find a link, so I googled "Rosie Lyles Acorn", and I came up with this link (http://www.acornwatch.org/breaking-news/1450-ag-announces-voter-fraud-conviction-in-hale-county-al). Sam, is ACORN Watch one of your sources?

Because I did what I always do when I encounter something kind fishy-looking like that: I went to the about us (http://www.acornwatch.org/about-us) page.

It kind of comes across like the site is the work of one magnificent crank. I mean, on the one hand his early life comes across like a bodyguard (he mentions being assigned to protect the Shah of Iran, and later meeting four presidents--I suspect as a bodyguard). But his life story just gets more and more amazing, culminating in
In 2006 he was named as Time magazine’s “Person Of The Year.”
This seemed a bit much. So I looked into it.

I encourage you to do the same thing. Bwahahahaha!

Edit: ooh, ninjad by elucidator! Hopefully my latest find will make up for it.

yorick73
09-13-2009, 09:26 PM
Nope, not absurd- and you know it. Just because the military is an extension of the federal government does NOT excuse it from obeying the law. If ACORN, as a whole, is held responsible for the supposed actions of two of their employees (out of how many thousands?), then the US Military is responsible for the actions of its enlisted. Remember- the so-called evidence against ACORN was illegally gained... why do you give it such weight?

And you know, it seems to me that you (and the Right in general) IS asking how far up the chain of command ACORN's supposed actions go. ACORN has already been tried and found guilty in your eyes- on the basis of such little evidence that it would be thrown out of court. There is far more evidence that the US Military has been acting illegally... but because they are the GOP darling, they get a pass. ACORN, though? We don't need no stinkin' evidence- string 'em up!

Methinks you misunderstood me. I did not say or suggest that the military is exempt from our laws. Nor do I believe they should not be investigated...they should. Many on the right just felt that the investigations and allegations should not have been made public in the middle of a war. And, being an extension of the federal government, every single policy decision is either decided by Congress or the information is accessible to them. Corruption at the top of the military chain would implicate Congress or the executive branch. Slightly below this level and those involved can be removed by Congress or the executive branch. This is, obviously, a different animal than a non-governmental organization receiving taxpayer dollars.

Oh, and of course we are asking how far up the ACORN chain of command this corruption runs. I find it amusing that the Left seems so willing to dismiss it as the actions of a few bad apples and are perfectly content to see them continue to get taxpayer money without being investigated by the government. Not even one hearing?

yorick73
09-13-2009, 09:31 PM
ACORN is more of an umbrella organization, like many (if not all!) lefty institutions, rigid lines of hierarchy and enforcement are not our thing. We leave that to those who lack our capacity for independent thought and are more comfortable being told what is right.

This is also the way most criminal enterprises are run. No direct links back to the top guys.

elucidator
09-13-2009, 09:45 PM
This is also the way most criminal enterprises are run. No direct links back to the top guys.

...Oh, and of course we are asking how far up the ACORN chain of command this corruption runs...

Contrast and compare.

Lightnin'
09-13-2009, 09:58 PM
Methinks you misunderstood me. I did not say or suggest that the military is exempt from our laws. Nor do I believe they should not be investigated...they should. Many on the right just felt that the investigations and allegations should not have been made public in the middle of a war.

Since it appears we will never again not be in a war, or in a War on Something, this would mean that the charges would never be addressed.

Oh, and of course we are asking how far up the ACORN chain of command this corruption runs. I find it amusing that the Left seems so willing to dismiss it as the actions of a few bad apples and are perfectly content to see them continue to get taxpayer money without being investigated by the government. Not even one hearing?

Which is more likely- that ACORN as an organization is all for the idea of child prostitution, or that a few employees overstepped their bounds?

Frankly, I would LOVE for ACORN to get an investigation. I haven't heard anyone say that the situation shouldn't be investigated- by all means, it should be. The problem is that the Right has already found them guilty- of what, I'm not sure exactly.

But at the same time, I'd like to see Blackwater and the military get investigated for their transgressions- you know, in the sense of fairness. Otherwise, it'll just look like someone's on a witch hunt. We wouldn't want that, would we?

elucidator
09-13-2009, 10:03 PM
Oh, me too! Even if the whole chain of command gets perp walked off to the slammer, I still want to know how that white bread preppy Bucky Beaver got anyone to believe he was a pimp!

yorick73
09-13-2009, 10:36 PM
Frankly, I would LOVE for ACORN to get an investigation. I haven't heard anyone say that the situation shouldn't be investigated- by all means, it should be. The problem is that the Right has already found them guilty- of what, I'm not sure exactly.

But at the same time, I'd like to see Blackwater and the military get investigated for their transgressions- you know, in the sense of fairness. Otherwise, it'll just look like someone's on a witch hunt. We wouldn't want that, would we?



It appears we agree.

yorick73
09-13-2009, 10:37 PM
Contrast and compare.

What's your point? The links are not nearly as easy to find but that doesn't mean they cannot be found and that ACORN should not be investigated.

DoctorJ
09-13-2009, 10:53 PM
In 2006 he was named as Time magazine’s “Person Of The Year.”
That is the funniest damn thing I've ever heard. I'm updating my CV right now.

elucidator
09-13-2009, 10:59 PM
"Chain of command" (snicker) Do you actually know any lefties?

Look, go for it! Drag Commissar Soros out nekkid and horsewhip him, just tell me how that vanilla yuppie scum convinced anybody that he was a pimp. I just gotta know that!

"Chain of command"! That's droll, that's very droll....

Lightnin'
09-14-2009, 07:22 AM
"Chain of command" (snicker) Do you actually know any lefties?


"You know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I go get and beat you with 'til ya understand who's in ruttin' command here."

Sinaijon
09-14-2009, 08:50 AM
I just wanted to say, none of the text you "quoted" is from the link you provided.

Is that fraud?

:dubious:

No. It's pretty clear which link contains the quoted text. It's the one immediately preceding the text, separated by a colon to denote the relationship. It's standard cite notation, really.

Why would your randomly pick a link from his post to associate with a quote when he specified quite clearly where it came from?

ElvisL1ves
09-14-2009, 08:52 AM
That is the funniest damn thing I've ever heard. I'm updating my CV right now.Don't forget to include being one of the Fifty Most Loathsome Americans every year. ;)

Really now, Sam.

RTFirefly
09-14-2009, 09:36 AM
The videos were the last straw. Senator Shelby (R-AL) expressed his concern (http://www.census.gov/po/www/foia/09-077.pdf) to President Obama in March over ACORN's involvement in the Census. (The file is a PDF.) And he's not entirely wrong. In fact, ACORN's involvement may cost the Census a good bit of cooperation and goodwill among the right wing; after the voter registration kerfluffle, they don't trust ACORN, and by extension, the Census. A shame we let this opportunity go to waste. It would have been a pleasure to have areas undercounted where those idjits were numerous.

It wasn't just the videos, it was the perception that ACORN was out to compromise the Census for its own ends, and the perception that ACORN is somehow dirty.Well, there's the problem: the wingnuts can create the impression that any organization is somehow dirty. Think that empowering them to determine who is kosher and who isn't is a Good Thing?

And exactly what power did ACORN have to compromise the Census?

I'm frankly quite pissed at Bob Groves, a statistician whose work I have great respect for, for knuckling under to a bunch of knuckle-draggers.

Snowboarder Bo
09-14-2009, 10:11 AM
No. It's pretty clear which link contains the quoted text. It's the one immediately preceding the text, separated by a colon to denote the relationship. It's standard cite notation, really.

Why would your randomly pick a link from his post to associate with a quote when he specified quite clearly where it came from?

I didn't "randomly pick a link". I clicked the link that immediately precedes the quoted text, and the text he quoted is not there. Which is what I said.

MsRobyn
09-14-2009, 10:21 AM
A shame we let this opportunity go to waste. It would have been a pleasure to have areas undercounted where those idjits were numerous.

Absolutely. Although I get the feeling that the wingnuts won't participate in the Census regardless of ACORN's status. That just gave them an excuse not to do it.

Well, there's the problem: the wingnuts can create the impression that any organization is somehow dirty. Think that empowering them to determine who is kosher and who isn't is a Good Thing?

It's not, and I never said it was a good thing.

And exactly what power did ACORN have to compromise the Census?

Several of the anti-ACORN wingnuts I've talked to were under the impression that ACORN-affiliated workers would somehow falsify questionnaires to overcount minorities and the socioeconomic underclass, depriving Decent White Folk of whatever it is Decent White Folk are deprived of. Never mind the fact that enumerators are checked out by the FBI before they go out, and they're subject to criminal prosecution if they get caught.

I'm frankly quite pissed at Bob Groves, a statistician whose work I have great respect for, for knuckling under to a bunch of knuckle-draggers.

The ACORN fiasco is making my job a lot harder. I work for the Census; my job is essentially front-line shill. I get to talk to people in a fairly conservative area, and it's tough to reach out to wingnuts who Know the Truth, and it's getting tough to reach out to providers of services to the Hard-to-Count communities because they feel burned by an organization they thought they could trust.

yorick73
09-14-2009, 11:03 AM
Oooh, look! They caught ANOTHER ACORN OFFICE giving advice to the pimp and ho! Complete with new ways to hide money from the Feds!

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/brooklyn/pimp_hooker_catch_staff_Js4YPEcsCcxLZhAEehLhmL

Diogenes the Cynic
09-14-2009, 11:18 AM
If it's adult prostitution, who gives a shit?

Sinaijon
09-14-2009, 11:28 AM
I didn't "randomly pick a link". I clicked the link that immediately precedes the quoted text, and the text he quoted is not there. Which is what I said.

My mistake. Being a naturally curious person, I clicked the 'Guilty Plea' link within his cite, and saw the quote text there.

jayjay
09-14-2009, 11:30 AM
If it's adult prostitution, who gives a shit?

Ditto. I find myself growing a yawning sense of apathy over this whole thing.

Oh, and might I note: The New York Post? Rupert "Faux Snooze" Murdoch's flagship paper? Really?

Sinaijon
09-14-2009, 11:33 AM
If it's adult prostitution, who gives a shit?

Lots of people do, when multiple laws are being broken.

jsgoddess
09-14-2009, 12:12 PM
That is the funniest damn thing I've ever heard. I'm updating my CV right now.

Wow! Small world! What are the odds?

Diogenes the Cynic
09-14-2009, 12:31 PM
Lots of people do, when multiple laws are being broken.
It's a victimless crime, and citing it's illegality is a tautology. Just because it's illegal doesn't mean it's bad.

This still says nothing about the institution of ACORN anyway.

Vinyl Turnip
09-14-2009, 12:46 PM
Oooh, look! They caught ANOTHER ACORN OFFICE giving advice to the pimp and ho! Complete with new ways to hide money from the Feds!

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/brooklyn/pimp_hooker_catch_staff_Js4YPEcsCcxLZhAEehLhmL

Holy shit. Anyone who'd believe that "pimp" getup is guilty of criminal stupidity, if nothing else.

BrainGlutton
09-14-2009, 12:59 PM
Acorn's response:

http://www.acorn.org/index.php?id=12439&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=22581&tx_ttnews[backPid]=12387&cHash=bb5331a517

(Won't code as a link, for some reason; just C&P it into your browser's url window.)

Snowboarder Bo
09-14-2009, 01:04 PM
From BG's link:

We are their Willy Horton for 2009. We are the boogeyman for the right-wing and its echo chambers. If ACORN did not exist, the right-wing would have needed to create us in order to achieve their agenda, their missions, their ideal, retrograde America.

Diogenes the Cynic
09-14-2009, 01:08 PM
It's a good response, The Willie Horton analogy is apt. I like that they're taking legal action against Fox. The scammers who perpetrated this are slime, and I think it's entirely correct that this whole thing is a politically motivated, public image assassination being perpetrated by the right wing media.

elucidator
09-14-2009, 01:20 PM
Maybe they just thought they had a couple of crazy-ass white folks in their office, so what was the harm in playing along? Clearly, anybody who would believe that Dudley Dipshit there was actually a playah is clueless beyond redemption.

If they didn't really believe what they were being told, what laws were they breaking? And that bit about being a "performance artist"? Could have been droll.

I think that, myself, in a duplicate situation, would either have laughed them out of the office or might even have played along. What the fuck, who cares, right?

And if they hadn't have been "helped", who knows but that they wouldn't have come out with a video "ACORN won't help white folks in suits"?

Tell you one damn thing, people like those two idiots pictured in Cousin Vinny's link make me wish there was some place you could go and resign from "white".

Sinaijon
09-14-2009, 01:26 PM
I like that they're taking legal action against Fox. The scammers who perpetrated this are slime, and I think it's entirely correct that this whole thing is a politically motivated, public image assassination being perpetrated by the right wing media.

Kill the messenger, much?

Lightnin'
09-14-2009, 01:35 PM
Kill the messenger, much?

When the messenger spread the message as "truth" instead of "rumor", and benefits from the message, sure.

ElvisL1ves
09-14-2009, 01:36 PM
Kill the messenger, much?

There first has to be a message.

elucidator
09-14-2009, 01:37 PM
Thats a bit thin, Sinaijon. Why don't you tell us what you think, here? Do you think that anyone could look at them and seriously believe that Dudley Dipshit was really a pimp? Is there some law against playing along with a put-on?

And why even do it? Did they have some evidence to act upon, that ACORN was illegally in league with the Playahs Union? Seems unlikely, doesn't it? So, then, it was a crock o' shit from the git-go, wasn't it? There were no pimps, no ho's, and damn sure no kiddie hookers from Central America.

This sort of lying shit to entrap...you approve of that sort of "news" gathering? In the finest traditions of journalism, do you think? Yeah, I can just see Walter Cronkite leading with that story, sure thing, you bethca!

Shodan
09-14-2009, 01:43 PM
I see ACORN has chosen to bluster and hand-wave rather than address any of their issues.

Probably their best bet.

Maybe they will bankrupt themselves with the lawsuit against the press agency that exposed them.

Regards,
Shodan

jayjay
09-14-2009, 01:47 PM
I see ACORN has chosen to bluster and hand-wave rather than address any of their issues.

Heh. Irony, thy name is Right-Wing.

elucidator
09-14-2009, 01:47 PM
Will someone ask Shodan if he can look at Vinny's Post picture above and seriously state that anyone would believe that clown is a pimp? I'd do it, but the hamsters protect him from my posts, due to delicacy.

jayjay
09-14-2009, 01:48 PM
delicacy.

You misspelled "denial".

Snowboarder Bo
09-14-2009, 01:49 PM
I see ACORN has chosen to bluster and hand-wave rather than address any of their issues.

Probably their best bet.

Maybe they will bankrupt themselves with the lawsuit against the press agency that exposed them.

Regards,
Shodan

There's been no bluster. There's been no hand-waving. Where is it, Shodan? Show it to us.

elucidator
09-14-2009, 01:49 PM
Doesn't matter, he'll never know.

Lightnin'
09-14-2009, 01:51 PM
I see ACORN has chosen to bluster and hand-wave rather than address any of their issues.


What would you have them do? They've already fired the employees caught in the (blatantly illegal and misleading) sting. How, exactly, could they "address" the issue?

Like it or not, they are now the injured party.

Diogenes the Cynic
09-14-2009, 01:55 PM
I see ACORN has chosen to bluster and hand-wave rather than address any of their issues.
What issues?

gonzomax
09-14-2009, 01:56 PM
What would you have them do? They've already fired the employees caught in the (blatantly illegal and misleading) sting. How, exactly, could they "address" the issue?

Like it or not, they are now the injured party.

He might be satisfied if ACORN was dismantled and every liberal shot . Perhaps getting Bush back in would help.

Shodan
09-14-2009, 01:57 PM
What elephant?

Regards,
Shodan

Diogenes the Cynic
09-14-2009, 02:04 PM
There's another elephant involved with the attacks on ACORN besides the obvious one?

Vinyl Turnip
09-14-2009, 02:14 PM
Maybe they just thought they had a couple of crazy-ass white folks in their office, so what was the harm in playing along?

This occurred to me as well, but I didn't dare state it for fear of being labeled a doe-eyed optimist.

Snowboarder Bo
09-14-2009, 02:20 PM
What elephant?

Regards,
Shodan

Vague innuendo and smirking aren't getting you anywhere.

Shodan
09-14-2009, 02:26 PM
There's another elephant involved with the attacks on ACORN besides the obvious one?
There aren't any attacks on ACORN.

Regards,
Shodan

elucidator
09-14-2009, 02:30 PM
Of course, this means that if anybody lies to some tighty-righty in some teabagger front group, and gets them to say something really, really stupid on tape (without their knowledge), then that's all fair and good.

Course, problem would be getting them to say something even more stupid than what they already are saying....

Assassinate Obama? Violent overthrow? Some real opportunities there for journalism.

tomndebb
09-14-2009, 03:32 PM
You misspelled "denial".

What elephant?That would be the Republican mascot/icon.

There aren't any attacks on ACORN.And we're right back to denial.

:D

ElvisL1ves
09-14-2009, 03:38 PM
That would be the Republican mascot/icon.

I like the Goposaurus (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/5/3/727263/-Meet-BusterorA-Natural-History-of-the-Goposaurus) better. ;)

RTFirefly
09-14-2009, 03:46 PM
Maybe they will bankrupt themselves with the lawsuit against the press agency that exposed them.
You misspelled "propaganda shop."

yorick73
09-14-2009, 03:51 PM
Wow...I see there is no more substance in this debate. Typical far-left tactics...when losing a debate start insulting the other side. And you guys think the right is full of small-brained smear merchants?
1st line of defense: " Oooh, they got one office out of gazillion tried"
2nd line of defense: "A few bad apples doesn't prove the entire batch is bad"
3rd line of defense: "There is no chain of command in lefty organizations...so the top guys couldn't have known...actually there aren't even top guys!
4th line of defense: "Entrapment" and "No REAL crime committed"
5th line of defense: "They were just playing along" and "who would believe that Opie looking Cracker was a pimp anyhow?"
6th line of defense: "Okay...back to insulting the GOP and Fox News!!"

Pathetic...

ElvisL1ves
09-14-2009, 03:59 PM
Typical far-left tacticsLet me summarize: You ain't got shit. Comprende?

Lightnin'
09-14-2009, 04:04 PM
And you guys think the right is full of small-brained smear merchants?

Pretty much, yes. Thanks for noticing.


1st line of defense: " Oooh, they got one office out of gazillion tried"
2nd line of defense: "A few bad apples doesn't prove the entire batch is bad"
3rd line of defense: "There is no chain of command in lefty organizations...so the top guys couldn't have known...actually there aren't even top guys!
4th line of defense: "Entrapment" and "No REAL crime committed"
5th line of defense: "They were just playing along" and "who would believe that Opie looking Cracker was a pimp anyhow?"
6th line of defense: "Okay...back to insulting the GOP and Fox News!!"

Every one of those is valid. I'm sorry you don't like what they do to your argument.

magellan01
09-14-2009, 04:17 PM
Wow...I see there is no more substance in this debate. Typical far-left tactics...when losing a debate start insulting the other side. And you guys think the right is full of small-brained smear merchants?
1st line of defense: " Oooh, they got one office out of gazillion tried"
2nd line of defense: "A few bad apples doesn't prove the entire batch is bad"
3rd line of defense: "There is no chain of command in lefty organizations...so the top guys couldn't have known...actually there aren't even top guys!
4th line of defense: "Entrapment" and "No REAL crime committed"
5th line of defense: "They were just playing along" and "who would believe that Opie looking Cracker was a pimp anyhow?"
6th line of defense: "Okay...back to insulting the GOP and Fox News!!"

Pathetic...

Yep, that about says it all. Though I think you could used a few "b-b-b-but"s in there.

Gangster Octopus
09-14-2009, 04:55 PM
Time for a bedtime story kids...

Once upon a time there was a great kingdom, with a beneveloent ruler who guarded the people against all threats, real and imagined. Since he was benevelent the people had no problem letting this ruler do as he pleased. But then one day an evil descended upon the land, from the faraway land of Kenyastan a BLACK knight came riding on the back of ramapaging evil Dragon named ACORNreathing fire and a mountain of false voter registration, the BLACK knight smited the benvevelonent ruler with his long sword of +5 LIES and his spell of DECEPTION!!!

The land was thrown in to darkness and EVIL ruled in the form of VOLUNTEERS and STIMULUS!! People lived in fear.

The end. Good night, kids.

El_Kabong
09-14-2009, 05:10 PM
Wow...I see there is no more substance in this debate. Typical far-left tactics...when losing a debate start insulting the other side. And you guys think the right is full of small-brained smear merchants?
1st line of defense: " Oooh, they got one office out of gazillion tried"
2nd line of defense: "A few bad apples doesn't prove the entire batch is bad"
3rd line of defense: "There is no chain of command in lefty organizations...so the top guys couldn't have known...actually there aren't even top guys!
4th line of defense: "Entrapment" and "No REAL crime committed"
5th line of defense: "They were just playing along" and "who would believe that Opie looking Cracker was a pimp anyhow?"
6th line of defense: "Okay...back to insulting the GOP and Fox News!!"

Pathetic...

Firstly, none of those except maybe #6 are "lines of defence", they are aguments raised at various times in the discussion. One does not replace another; they are all arguable.

I for one would like to hear your opinion on why ACORN, as an organization, would agree to tell anyone, much less persons supposedly already engaged in illegal activity, on how to dodge taxes.

The only explanation I've heard from people who seem to share your views is that ACORN is seeking to sow chaos any way it can. If that your view as well? I ask because it seems utterly childish and silly as an explantion for anything. If this is not your view, what would the organization have to gain by advising prostitutes on ways to avoid taxes? I'm really not seeing the advantage to them here.

hotflungwok
09-14-2009, 05:49 PM
Wow...I see there is no more substance in this debate. Typical far-left tactics...when losing a debate start insulting the other side. And you guys think the right is full of small-brained smear merchants?
1st line of defense: " Oooh, they got one office out of gazillion tried"
2nd line of defense: "A few bad apples doesn't prove the entire batch is bad"
3rd line of defense: "There is no chain of command in lefty organizations...so the top guys couldn't have known...actually there aren't even top guys!
4th line of defense: "Entrapment" and "No REAL crime committed"
5th line of defense: "They were just playing along" and "who would believe that Opie looking Cracker was a pimp anyhow?"
6th line of defense: "Okay...back to insulting the GOP and Fox News!!"

Pathetic...
Yes, this is pathetic. That you think you've said anything of relevance or import is quite pathetic. You start of by making a sweeping partisan jab, follow up with some nice soft projection, and then jump right into the nonsensical. The nicest thing I can say about any element of this list is that it's borderline strawman. I mean seriously, do you even know what's being argued about here? You've brought nothing to the debate, and yet there are still people who stand up and agree with you. Pathetic. Really, it is.

If you can prove that what happened was because of office- or company-wide policy, please do. Also explain why it took the 'investigators' so many tries before they found someone willing to follow policy.

Barring this, please explain why all of ACORN should be punished for the actions of several people. Also explain why John McCain & his employees should not be punished for the actions of this man. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=531568)

If you can provide the rest of the obviously heavily edited tape, please do.

While I'm seeking information about ACORN, I might as well ask who it was who discovered the voting registration 'irregularities' at ACORN during the 2008 election, who reported them, and who punished those responsible? Also, how many invalid votes were cast as a result of these 'irregularities'? I mean, since it's obviously they are such a hated a reviled organization, the answers should be easy to find.

yorick73
09-14-2009, 06:04 PM
Yes, this is pathetic. That you think you've said anything of relevance or import is quite pathetic. You start of by making a sweeping partisan jab, follow up with some nice soft projection, and then jump right into the nonsensical. The nicest thing I can say about any element of this list is that it's borderline strawman. I mean seriously, do you even know what's being argued about here? You've brought nothing to the debate, and yet there are still people who stand up and agree with you. Pathetic. Really, it is.

If you can prove that what happened was because of office- or company-wide policy, please do. Also explain why it took the 'investigators' so many tries before they found someone willing to follow policy.

Barring this, please explain why all of ACORN should be punished for the actions of several people. Also explain why John McCain & his employees should not be punished for the actions of this man. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=531568)

If you can provide the rest of the obviously heavily edited tape, please do.

While I'm seeking information about ACORN, I might as well ask who it was who discovered the voting registration 'irregularities' at ACORN during the 2008 election, who reported them, and who punished those responsible? Also, how many invalid votes were cast as a result of these 'irregularities'? I mean, since it's obviously they are such a hated a reviled organization, the answers should be easy to find.

Wow...I suggest you actually READ the thread before posting. Don't just go to the last post and respond. Most of your questions have been answered.

ElvisL1ves
09-14-2009, 07:38 PM
Most of your questions have been answered.They have indeed, but somehow you still think there's a case here. Amazing.

wolf11469
09-14-2009, 07:49 PM
. Also explain why it took the 'investigators' so many tries before they found someone willing to follow policy.

.



Just out of curiosity, has Acorn offered any proof of multiple scam attempts

Diogenes the Cynic
09-14-2009, 09:06 PM
The scammers themselves admitted it took them a bunch of tries, I believe.

elucidator
09-14-2009, 09:22 PM
Interesting thread evolution. We started with child prostitution, ended up with mortgage application advice. Might be guilty on that one.

I suggest a thorough cleaning, to save ACORN's future. Lets clear out the whole chain of command...(gimmee a second, that one still cracks me up....tofu lefties with a chain of command!...oh, my...) from the very top! Lets purge the top positions and replace them with public servants of proven ability and impeccable moral fiber. Alberto Gonzales, for instance, needs a job.

tomndebb
09-14-2009, 09:46 PM
Wow...I see there is no more substance in this debate. Typical far-left tactics...when losing a debate start insulting the other side.
. . .

Pathetic...So, you identify yourself on the far-left?

:p

tomndebb
09-14-2009, 09:48 PM
Icckkkh!

If there is not some substance posted to this thread, shortly, it will be closed and you can all move over to the Pit to gnaw on each others' legs.


[ /Modding ]

wolf11469
09-14-2009, 10:34 PM
The scammers themselves admitted it took them a bunch of tries, I believe.

Really?? I didn't see that.

In the link in post 214 he seemed to deny it.


"First CNN pushed the false ACORN line that ď[t]his film crew tried to pull this sham at other offices and failed.Ē

yorick73
09-14-2009, 10:55 PM
Just out of curiosity, has Acorn offered any proof of multiple scam attempts


No. In fact, ACORN listed the NY office as one that the crew tried to bait but failed.

yorick73
09-14-2009, 11:13 PM
Firstly, none of those except maybe #6 are "lines of defence", they are aguments raised at various times in the discussion. One does not replace another; they are all arguable.

I for one would like to hear your opinion on why ACORN, as an organization, would agree to tell anyone, much less persons supposedly already engaged in illegal activity, on how to dodge taxes.

The only explanation I've heard from people who seem to share your views is that ACORN is seeking to sow chaos any way it can. If that your view as well? I ask because it seems utterly childish and silly as an explantion for anything. If this is not your view, what would the organization have to gain by advising prostitutes on ways to avoid taxes? I'm really not seeing the advantage to them here.

I don't believe that ACORN was set up as an ideological group. Their far-left work is incidental. I believe it is just a criminal enterprise designed to make money for the top tier guys. Remeber Wade Rathke and his million dollar embezzlement. My guess is that the Rathke's and maybe others set up an umbrella organization in order to get grant money from the government. They probably pocket a percentage and spend the rest on these community outreach programs. I assume they are minimally involved in the day to day operations of the various projects and function as little more than absentee landlords.

They hire ex-convicts and other idiots that they can easily throw away if the going gets tough. I assume the different projects are run by someone higher up than the streel-level people (regardless of what elucidator says there has to be someone organizing this group of idiots). When laws are broken the top guys have plausible deniability and probably can not be convicted for any crimes committed by the street-level guys.

Contrary to what others belive, I do not think that ACORN is trying to sow chaos for nefarious left-wing purposes. This is merely a side effect of the type of people employed and the type of programs offered by ACORN. I don't think the Rathke's have a political persuasion...all they care about is the money. Of course this is all IMHO.

Regardless, they should not receive another penny of taxpayer money until they are investigated by Congress.

yorick73
09-14-2009, 11:20 PM
By the way, the Senate voted 83 to 7 to prohibit use of funds for ACORN (amendment 2355 to HR 3288. It's a good start!

http://senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=111&session=1&vote=00275

PhiloVance
09-14-2009, 11:35 PM
Senate Votes to Cut Off ACORN Housing Funding

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/09/14/senate-votes-cut-acorn-housing-funding/

The 83-7 vote would deny housing and community grant funding to ACORN, which stands for the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now.

jayjay
09-14-2009, 11:40 PM
Funny...no one voted to cut off funding for Blackwater until an investigation was conducted on all those mysterious civilian deaths. No one voted to cut off funding for Halliburton until an investigation was conducted on the soldiers they electrocuted.

elucidator
09-14-2009, 11:58 PM
Those are legitimate criminal conspiracies!

Snowboarder Bo
09-15-2009, 12:08 AM
Funny...no one voted to cut off funding for Blackwater until an investigation was conducted on all those mysterious civilian deaths. No one voted to cut off funding for Halliburton until an investigation was conducted on the soldiers they electrocuted.

Hmmm... seems like the wealthy people get a pass, but the poor people get fucked over. What a surprise.

Lightnin'
09-15-2009, 12:48 AM
Hmmm... seems like the wealthy people get a pass, but the poor people get fucked over. What a surprise.

Yeah, I'm not sure why the Right is crowing over this "victory", since all it does is raise questions as to why their pet projects weren't investigated and castigated for doing far worse. If anything it just makes them look like total hypocrites.

I guess they have to get their little victories where they can. Cognitive dissonance FTW.

elucidator
09-15-2009, 01:46 AM
ACORN is important because it plays to the ceaseless tighty righty certainty of their own persecution, by dark and sinister forces. They know that those US attorney investigations of the dreaded voter fraud were totally legitimate. That they concentrated on Democratic candidates is only to be expected, since the Dems are so closely associated with the cackling coven of Satanic socialists - ACORN! There's hardly a member of ACORN who has a Bill Ayers number larger than two!

That such sterling public servants as Alberto Gonzales found themselves in hot water over this patriotic exercise is further proof of oppression. Why, the lefties had twisted things around so that prosecuting voter fraud was somehow against the law! Well, OK, they had to bend the rules a little, cut a corner or two. Ten, maybe, tops. But that's how it is in the rough and tumble world of voter registration!

This is mostly how ACORN got such an exaggerated importance for the tighty set: not that they were powerful or important, but that they were prominent, they stood out. Because ACORN helps them explain the inexplicable: how a center right country with an overwhelming majority of people who think like they do, how such a country could vote so wrong.

They have to choose: either they are wrong about America, or they wuz robbed. And so, ACORN, gnawing rat-like on the vitals of the Republic, so insidious that hardly any lefties had ever even heard of them! Now that's sneaky, when your own team doesn't know what you're up to!

What they cannot confess even to themselves is that voter registration is what hurts them, its why they resist any effort to make it easier. They cling to their dream of majority even as they resist any effort to expand the voter rolls. I mean to say, if you really believe you are the natural majority, you want more people to vote, yes? Unless you don't really believe that.

Hardly matters. For the same reasons so few lefties had ever heard of ACORN, it will be easily replaced. Its mostly a collection of sub-groups anyway, a change of letterhead would be pretty much all that would be required if they actually hanged ACORN.

And, on balance, a delightful precedent has been set for independent amateur investigators to provide proof, once again, of that eternal verity: that whatsoever shall go around, therefore shall it come around, and bite you in the butt. Verily.

PhiloVance
09-15-2009, 04:40 PM
More stuff.

http://biggovernment.com/2009/09/15/acorn-prostitution-scandal-california-here-we-come/


This is part one. From Cali-forn-ya, the land of uh uh.... Enjoy.

Snowboarder Bo
09-15-2009, 04:52 PM
This O'Keefe guy would seem to have conspired with some fair number of people to break the laws in multiple states, wrt recording others without consent. I'm guessing that he has already started a defense fund and has been accepting "donations" for a while now, since most of these seem to have been recorded months or weeks ago.

Diogenes the Cynic
09-15-2009, 05:14 PM
Nothing involving adult prostitution is newsworthy. I don't even know what that woman killing her abusive husband (good for her) even has to do with ACORN. The right wing's blissed out, drooling glee over this scammer's unimportant little Borat stunts is lost on me. What exactly do they think they're proving?

E-Sabbath
09-15-2009, 05:52 PM
Man, that guy shot a lot of film. I mean... how much O'Keefe do we have here, Crow?

jayjay
09-15-2009, 06:13 PM
man, that guy shot a lot of film. I mean... How much o'keefe do we have here, crow?

Miiiiiiiiiles O'Keefe!

El_Kabong
09-15-2009, 07:50 PM
Nothing involving adult prostitution is newsworthy. I don't even know what that woman killing her abusive husband (good for her) even has to do with ACORN. The right wing's blissed out, drooling glee over this scammer's unimportant little Borat stunts is lost on me. What exactly do they think they're proving?

Well, near as I can tell, they have bought into the apparent lie that ACORN is in line to receive billions in stimulus money, and they believe that the exposure of these videos has stopped that from happening. Er, stopped them from getting the mythical money they weren't going to get in the first place.

Other than that, I got nothin'.

Diogenes the Cynic
09-15-2009, 07:54 PM
Miiiiiiiiiles O'Keefe!Man, that's an obscure reference.

Diogenes the Cynic
09-15-2009, 09:07 PM
Looks like the California tape is phonied up (http://www.sbsun.com/breakingnews/ci_13342555). The credibility of the rest of them is highly dubious as well. I think this whole scam might start to unravel soon.

Left Hand of Dorkness
09-15-2009, 09:27 PM
Looks like the California tape is phonied up (http://www.sbsun.com/breakingnews/ci_13342555). The credibility of the rest of them is highly dubious as well. I think this whole scam might start to unravel soon.
There are contradictory claims in that article. The more troubling one is that the "reporter" edited out the part where they asked if it was a joke and if he were a reporter. But for them to laugh about it AND be frightened of him? I don't see it.

Overall, I think what this speaks to is that ACORN needs to do some training on what kinds of requests are legal and what kinds are illegal. But overall, there's not really much to worry about here. It seems to me that if there were actual abuse of ACORN in this manner--if criminals actually were getting advice on how to set up tax shelters or whatever from ACORN--we'd have actual reports of it coming out via arrests of the criminals, and there'd be a paper trail leading back to ACORN.

The lack of any such real instances makes me think it doesn't actually happen.

Diogenes the Cynic
09-15-2009, 09:35 PM
There are contradictory claims in that article. The more troubling one is that the "reporter" edited out the part where they asked if it was a joke and if he were a reporter. But for them to laugh about it AND be frightened of him? I don't see it.
It's possible if they thought he was crazy. Obviously, no one could seriously believe he was a pimp.

Snowboarder Bo
09-15-2009, 09:54 PM
There are contradictory claims in that article. The more troubling one is that the "reporter" edited out the part where they asked if it was a joke and if he were a reporter. But for them to laugh about it AND be frightened of him? I don't see it.
I didn't see the part about being frightened. Where is that?

ETA: nm, i found it... horrible HTML coding on that site obscured it.

El_Kabong
09-15-2009, 09:59 PM
Looks like the California tape is phonied up (http://www.sbsun.com/breakingnews/ci_13342555). The credibility of the rest of them is highly dubious as well. I think this whole scam might start to unravel soon.

Agreed. Very little has added up ever since this thing broke. In particular, I don't believe for one minute that no news organization other than FOX has attempted to get their hands on the tapes. O'Keefe himself has stated that he has refused contacts from CNN. Why would he do that? Wouldn't the fact that even the Liberal Media(TM) accepted the story as legit tend to bolster his credibility?

Most likely, other news organizations, as would be normal, are insisting on having unedited copies of the tapes to review prior to basing a story on them. I have to think that O'Keefe may have some very good reasons for not allowing access to the unedited versions.

wolf11469
09-15-2009, 10:01 PM
Looks like the California tape is phonied up (http://www.sbsun.com/breakingnews/ci_13342555). The credibility of the rest of them is highly dubious as well. I think this whole scam might start to unravel soon.

At the start of the California tape O'Keefe states that there was only one employee in the building at the time, I assume that would be the women in the video Tresa Kaelke. Was there another person to back up her version of the events?

wolf11469
09-15-2009, 10:08 PM
I would certainly like to see the unedited version tho.

E-Sabbath
09-15-2009, 10:15 PM
But he had a pimp cane! A pimp cane!

I showed the picture to eight people at the homeless shelter at work today. Asked 'em, "Do you think this guy is a pimp?"

Most said no. Two laughed and pointed. Nobody said yes.

Diogenes the Cynic
09-15-2009, 10:18 PM
At the start of the California tape O'Keefe states that there was only one employee in the building at the time, I assume that would be the women in the video Tresa Kaelke. Was there another person to back up her version of the events?
She apparently believes the unedited video backs up her version. It's hard to believe she would say that if it wasn't true. This little O'Keefe tool has far more credibility issues than she does. Somebody needs to put him on a bus with some black kids.

wolf11469
09-15-2009, 10:34 PM
She apparently believes the unedited video backs up her version. It's hard to believe she would say that if it wasn't true. This little O'Keefe tool has far more credibility issues than she does. .

If any of the things she said about herself are true she might have some credibility issues herself


"Somebody needs to put him on a bus with some black kids"

LOL

Diogenes the Cynic
09-15-2009, 11:19 PM
If any of the things she said about herself are true she might have some credibility issues herself
What did she say about herself? Are you mixing her up with the Baltimore woman who said she killed her abusive husband?

yorick73
09-16-2009, 12:17 AM
What did she say about herself? Are you mixing her up with the Baltimore woman who said she killed her abusive husband?

No, that was the California woman who said she killed her husband

Diogenes the Cynic
09-16-2009, 12:49 AM
Well good for her, whoever she is.

ETA, given that she was just joking around with these people, that probably means the "I killed my husband" thing was a joke too then.

Bricker
09-16-2009, 07:22 AM
Looks like the California tape is phonied up (http://www.sbsun.com/breakingnews/ci_13342555). The credibility of the rest of them is highly dubious as well. I think this whole scam might start to unravel soon.

It seems to me that the evidence that the tape is phony comes from a uncorroborated statement from the implicated person.

That said, it's a relatively easy statement to verify, and I absolutely agree that the unedited tape should be made available.

Diogenes the Cynic
09-16-2009, 08:43 AM
Only one person is preventing that tape from being made available, and it isn't anyone from ACORN. It should also be easy to determine whether that ACORN worker ever killed her husband, or had a husband who died at all. If not, then that would lend great credibility to her insistence that she was just goofing around with them.

The other tapes are heavily edited as well. Until this O'Keefe person is willing to make the unedited tapes available, I don't think any of them can be taken at face value.

Vinyl Turnip
09-16-2009, 09:09 AM
I see some message boards/blogs claiming that Fox News has posted the hour-long unedited tape on their website, but I'm unable to find the video or a link to it.

Diogenes the Cynic
09-16-2009, 09:28 AM
There's a video linked on the front page of the Fox News website, but it's only about a 15 minute edit. It's not the whole tape.

Gyrate
09-16-2009, 10:01 AM
After the Bill Clinton interview shenanigans and Hannity's selective cropping of quotes on his show, I automatically start from a standpoint of any tape on Fox being carefully edited to give a particular impression.

Fox aside, I'd like to see the full unedited tapes to see whose side of the story they really support. I ain't believing nobody until then.

Sam Stone
09-16-2009, 10:24 AM
I think this is a link to the full unedited tape. I don't have time to watch it today.

Hotair.Com - Unedited ACORN Tape (http://hotair.com/archives/2009/09/15/fox-news-posts-full-unedited-video-of-sting-on-acorn-san-bernardino/)

Diogenes the Cynic
09-16-2009, 10:39 AM
That's not unedited tape. It's only about 15 minutes worth.

Diogenes the Cynic
09-16-2009, 10:45 AM
By the way, I was right about the dead husband story. She made it up to fuck with them. (http://mediamatters.org/research/200909160003)
However, the San Bernardino Police Department investigated the matter and concluded that the claims made by Tresa Kaelke -- the ACORN staffer in question who said she fabricated the story because the actors filming her "were clearly playing with me" -- "do not appear to be factual," and that her "known former husbands" are "alive and well."
That bolsters her claim that she knew they were bogus.

Nars Glinley
09-16-2009, 02:36 PM
The other tapes are heavily edited as well. Until this O'Keefe person is willing to make the unedited tapes available, I don't think any of them can be taken at face value.

If the unedited tapes are made available, will you take them at face value?

El_Kabong
09-16-2009, 02:56 PM
Personally, I'm taking them at face value right now. That's why I consider them pretty much worthless.

Euphonious Polemic
09-16-2009, 04:01 PM
By the way, I was right about the dead husband story. She made it up to fuck with them. (http://mediamatters.org/research/200909160003)

That bolsters her claim that she knew they were bogus.


Man, these scammers are dense in the extreme if they actually bought that fake "confession". (and it seems that some of our local dopers (I'm looking at you steph96) also bought the "confession" hook line and sinker.

I hope that staff in ACORN across the country starts callling up FOX et al, making up the most ridiculous confessions:

"I kidnapped the Lindburgh baby. Yes, it was me."

Diogenes the Cynic
09-16-2009, 04:03 PM
If the unedited tapes are made available, will you take them at face value?
Sure. It's already obvious even from the edited cuts that the ACORN worker was goofing on a couple of speds. That IS face value as far as I'm concerned.

Euphonious Polemic
09-16-2009, 04:08 PM
Sure. It's already obvious even from the edited cuts that the ACORN worker was goofing on a couple of speds. That IS face value as far as I'm concerned.

WHAT? you mean that ACORN workers were on speed? Where did they get these drugs? Are they selling them?

HEY EVERYONE! ACORN is a front for a drug ring. A drug cartel even!

<cue rhetorical question>

Could Obama be the ringleader behind this drug operation?

Snowboarder Bo
09-16-2009, 04:38 PM
WHAT? you mean that ACORN workers were on speed? Where did they get these drugs? Are they selling them?

HEY EVERYONE! ACORN is a front for a drug ring. A drug cartel even!

<cue rhetorical question>

Could Obama be the ringleader behind this drug operation?

LOL

Snowboarder Bo
09-16-2009, 05:31 PM
I think this is a link to the full unedited tape. I don't have time to watch it today.

Hotair.Com - Unedited ACORN Tape (http://hotair.com/archives/2009/09/15/fox-news-posts-full-unedited-video-of-sting-on-acorn-san-bernardino/)

Huh. Did you find that at the same website where you found stories about ACORN that actually don't mention ACORN?

elucidator
09-16-2009, 10:03 PM
Fuckin' speds! Oughta be allow against 'em!

gonzomax
09-16-2009, 10:32 PM
David Vitter has been talking about the ACORN problem. But he has a prostitute problem since he frequented 3 of them and rumor is he liked to wear diapers. Gotta be frustrating to be a repub nowadays.

elucidator
09-17-2009, 12:27 AM
What problem? He did it, got caught, said "Yeah, I did it, sorry!" then climbed right back up onto the pulpit. He walked, how has he got a problem?

PhiloVance
09-17-2009, 09:38 AM
Hmmmm.



http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/sep/16/acorn-suspends-plans-audit-wake-videos/

Gyrate
09-17-2009, 09:47 AM
Must you cite the Washington Times? Jeebus. Here's the AP story. (http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jxhq8CPN8LdLntDEDtE5NrEBQ2IgD9AOR9400)

I thought this bit was interesting: Rep. Gus Bilirakis, R-Fla., said he's asked the Federal Emergency Management Agency to repeal a nearly $1 million grant it awarded to ACORN earlier this month.

FEMA awarded $997,402 to ACORN in New Orleans on Sept. 4 as part of its Fire Prevention and Safety Grants program. The group plans to use the money to assess fire safety in the homes of low and moderate-income families and hand out smoke and carbon monoxide detectors and other fire prevention gear, ACORN's Brennan Griffin said.

FEMA had no immediate comment on Bilirakis' request.Curse ACORN and their liberal carbon monoxide detectors!

samclem
09-17-2009, 09:56 AM
Acorn suspends operations; plans audit.
Hmmmm.



http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/sep/16/acorn-suspends-plans-audit-wake-videos/ I assume you wrote the headline "Acorn suspends operations?" A trifle misleading. They only closed "new admissions" to their Community Service Program."

PhiloVance
09-17-2009, 10:33 AM
For a little humor:

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-september-15-2009/the-audacity-of-hos

PhiloVance
09-17-2009, 10:36 AM
I assume you wrote the headline "Acorn suspends operations?" A trifle misleading. They only closed "new admissions" to their Community Service Program."

Yes, what other operations do they have, pray tell?

elucidator
09-17-2009, 10:48 AM
For even more humor....

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204518504574416833436798004.html

Wall Street Journal Opinion page wonders aloud if a Special Prosecutor is not required to investigate the ties between Obama and ACORN. No, I'm not making this up!

El_Kabong
09-17-2009, 10:49 AM
Yes, what other operations do they have, pray tell?

Here's a full list:

http://www.acorn.org/index.php?id=12357

Sorry, a little hard to tell the way the article's written, but the suspension appears to refer to new admissions to the Acorn Fair Housing program, which is a subsidiary of the organization proper. Looks like they are otherwise still working diligently to destroy the country in other areas ;).

gonzomax
09-17-2009, 10:51 AM
What problem? He did it, got caught, said "Yeah, I did it, sorry!" then climbed right back up onto the pulpit. He walked, how has he got a problem?

Yes but how can he weigh in on a case involving prostitution without his problems surfacing again. This is his chance to get on ACORN, but his history is holding him back. It must be frustrating to not be able to pile on . I think he should comment because he is an expert in the field.

Diogenes the Cynic
09-17-2009, 10:56 AM
For even more humor....

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204518504574416833436798004.html

Wall Street Journal Opinion page wonders aloud if a Special Prosecutor is not required to investigate the ties between Obama and ACORN. No, I'm not making this up!
You'd never be able to detect that the WSJ is now a Murdoch owned publication, would you?

jayjay
09-17-2009, 11:03 AM
You'd never be able to detect that the WSJ is now a Murdoch owned publication, would you?

Truthfully? I can't really tell just from the editorial page. Their preferred position has always been with their tongues up Wall Street's bunghole...

ETA: Actually, I can't say that. They've always been so far right that their toilet paper unrolls from the inside of the tube, but since NewsCorpse took over their orbit has been synchronizing with the tinfoil hat crowd more and more.

elucidator
09-17-2009, 11:05 AM
Closer to home, Governor Tim Pawlenty, the Man Who Will Never, Ever Be King, is shining his conservative credentials by cutting off all state money going to ACORN. This bold and courageous move is muddled by the fact that ACORN is not recieving any Minnesota state money....

http://www.twincities.com/ci_13352790

yorick73
09-17-2009, 11:26 AM
For even more humor....

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204518504574416833436798004.html

Wall Street Journal Opinion page wonders aloud if a Special Prosecutor is not required to investigate the ties between Obama and ACORN. No, I'm not making this up!

What's so strange about this? The NY Times was investigating the links between Obama and ACORN fronted groups during the election but spiked the story at the last minute. I think they claimed that they did not want to be responsible for affecting the election. They eventually published a watered down version after the election to save face. Some of the e-mails between the Times reporter and ACORN whistleblower Anita MonCrief can be found here.

http://michellemalkin.com/2009/05/28/document-drop-what-nytimes-reporter-stephanie-strom-really-knew-about-obamacorn/

Diogenes the Cynic
09-17-2009, 11:28 AM
There isn't any link between Obama and ACORN.

ETA seriously, you're linking to Michelle Malkin? Why not just link to Hitler?

MOIDALIZE
09-17-2009, 11:33 AM
It is of vital importance that ACORN be stopped. An organization that has received a total of $53 million in federal funds over the last 15 years and had its funding cut by Congress at the first whiff of wrongdoing is an unstoppable juggernaut of corruption.

Gangster Octopus
09-17-2009, 11:34 AM
What's so strange about this? The NY Times was investigating the links between Obama and ACORN fronted groups during the election but spiked the story at the last minute. I think they claimed that they did not want to be responsible for affecting the election. They eventually published a watered down version after the election to save face. Some of the e-mails between the Times reporter and ACORN whistleblower Anita MonCrief can be found here.

http://michellemalkin.com/2009/05/28/document-drop-what-nytimes-reporter-stephanie-strom-really-knew-about-obamacorn/

To save face? What does that even mean? Yo honestly think the NYTimes would not publish a story about a supremely corrupt ACORN if they had the evidence? One whistleblower does not a case make. Oh wait, I forgot, iot's the liberal mdeia bioas.....nevermind.

yorick73
09-17-2009, 11:38 AM
There isn't any link between Obama and ACORN.

ETA seriously, you're linking to Michelle Malkin? Why not just link to Hitler?

I guess we will see. Oh, and it's unbecoming to refer to political opponents as Nazis...but the Left does that so welll....

At any rate, the e-mail exchange is there and this had nothing to do with Michelle Malkin.

yorick73
09-17-2009, 11:45 AM
Here's another Michelle Malkin link in case anyone wants to read more of the e-mails.

http://michellemalkin.cachefly.net/michellemalkin.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/new-york-times-e-mails22.pdf

yorick73
09-17-2009, 11:51 AM
To save face? What does that even mean? Yo honestly think the NYTimes would not publish a story about a supremely corrupt ACORN if they had the evidence? One whistleblower does not a case make. Oh wait, I forgot, iot's the liberal mdeia bioas.....nevermind.


I absolutely believe they would spike a story if it would help the republicans win the presidency. The NY times claimed the story was spiked because it was a tip that did not pan out.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/17/opinion/17pubed.html?_r=3

Compare that to how quickly the NY times was willing to report on a rumored affair between McCain and Vicki Iseman during the election....which they later had to apologize for. Hell, they didn't even have an e-mail exchange to back up that story!

PhiloVance
09-17-2009, 11:55 AM
Alinsky Rule #8: Keep the pressure on. Never let up.

More California movies.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,551403,00.html

Diogenes the Cynic
09-17-2009, 12:02 PM
A link to a Sean Hannity transcript? Give me a fucking break.

What "pressure" do you guys think you're applying anyway? To who?

This "Alinsky" meme is really stupid, by the way.

yorick73
09-17-2009, 12:12 PM
A link to a Sean Hannity transcript? Give me a fucking break.

I guess Hannity is a little Hitler too?

Diogenes the Cynic
09-17-2009, 12:16 PM
Well, he did once support a genuine neo-Nazi for Congess. He's not smart enough to be a Hitler, though. He's more cut out to be Hitler's little scat boy...like he is for Rupert Murdoch.

El_Kabong
09-17-2009, 12:27 PM
Alinsky Rule #8: Keep the pressure on. Never let up.

More California movies.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,551403,00.html

Philo, just asking here; do you have any particular thing you want to discuss in this thread? I'm under the impression that posting links with little or no comment is kind of frowned upon in this forum.

PhiloVance
09-17-2009, 12:53 PM
Philo, just asking here; do you have any particular thing you want to discuss in this thread? I'm under the impression that posting links with little or no comment is kind of frowned upon in this forum.

My post is my comment.


"None are so blind as those that will not see"

elucidator
09-17-2009, 12:53 PM
...This "Alinsky" meme is really stupid, by the way.

Wondering about that. When did the tighty rightys find out about Saul Alinsky? When did they start to care about Saul Alinsky?

I dimly recall him being quoted regarding a "news story" that Abbie Hoffman's Yippie Party was central to organizing the Days of Rage fiasco at the Democratic Convention of 1968....

"Organize? You kidding? Those guys couldn't organize a Hadassah luncheon!"

ElvisL1ves
09-17-2009, 12:58 PM
Wondering about that. When did the tighty rightys find out about Saul Alinsky? When did they start to care about Saul Alinsky?
When they found out Hillary the Bitch Queen did her Wellesley thesis on him, maybe.

ElvisL1ves
09-17-2009, 12:59 PM
Oh, and it's unbecoming to refer to political opponents as Nazis...but the Left does that so welll....The "feminazis"? That Left?

Euphonious Polemic
09-17-2009, 01:11 PM
I guess we will see. Oh, and it's unbecoming to refer to political opponents as Nazis...but the Left does that so welll....

Yes, those damn leftists and their Hitler comparisons! (http://libertarianrepublican.blogspot.com/2008/11/obama-flys-flag-of-anti-freedom-for.html)

elucidator
09-17-2009, 01:21 PM
Still, nice job on painting the horse, she must have started from the Limbaugh and worked forward....

El_Kabong
09-17-2009, 01:33 PM
My post is my comment.


"None are so blind as those that will not see"

I see all sorts of things in this issue. Howzabout you be so kind as to tell us what, in your view, we are missing?

cosmosdan
09-17-2009, 02:02 PM
I heard this stroy being discussed on NPR this morning and they mentioned that ACORN had claimed it is a right wing hatchet job but they will continue on to do the good work they've been doing for 40 years. I'm surprised I haven't seen it more in oither media like the Huff Post. Why hasn't anyone mentionoed the editing and the very significant fact that the tapes have not been released undedited.

In fact someone needs to do an entire story on how editing and sound bytes is being used

yorick73
09-17-2009, 02:18 PM
Looks like the house has decided to cut funding to ACORN as well...

http://biggovernment.com/2009/09/17/final-vote-results-for-roll-call/#more-4290

Lightnin'
09-17-2009, 02:33 PM
Looks like the house has decided to cut funding to ACORN as well...

http://biggovernment.com/2009/09/17/final-vote-results-for-roll-call/#more-4290

I think it's very telling that there were 75 Democrat "nay" votes... but every single Republican voted "aye" (granted, with 5 non-votes).

Yeah, sure looks like a witch hunt to me.

Sam Stone
09-17-2009, 02:42 PM
The reason you're seeing all these Alinsky quotes is that there's a bunch of people on the right who believe that Alinsky's tactics have been used to great effect by the left, and they've decided to employ them on the right to fight fire with fire.

They seem to have forgotten the first rule of Fight Club, though. If you're going to use Alinsky tactics, you don't talk about how you're using Alinsky tactics.

BTW, I disagree with them.

Sam Stone
09-17-2009, 02:45 PM
I think it's very telling that there were 75 Democrat "nay" votes... but every single Republican voted "aye" (granted, with 5 non-votes).

Yeah, sure looks like a witch hunt to me.

Don't you find it even more telling that there were 175 'aye' votes from Democrats? The fact that Democrats voted more than 2-1 to cut funding for an organization they heavily supported previously is quite surprising. That's some strange kind of witch hunt.

It's not at all surprising that Republicans were unanimous, since they've always been opposed to providing funds to Acorn. The surprise is that so many Democrats are abandoning them. Makes you want to re-think your curt dismissal of all the evidence, doesn't it?

Lightnin'
09-17-2009, 02:48 PM
Don't you find it even more telling that there were 175 'aye' votes from Democrats? The fact that Democrats voted more than 2-1 to cut funding for an organization they heavily supported previously is quite surprising. That's some strange kind of witch hunt.

It's not at all surprising that Republicans were unanimous, since they've always been opposed to providing funds to Acorn. The surprise is that so many Democrats are abandoning them. Makes you want to re-think your curt dismissal of all the evidence, doesn't it?

Not at all. All it seems to indicate to me is that the Dems were willing to cross party lines. There may be some truth to the allegations about ACORN, there might not- we don't have enough evidence right now. However, the point still stands- Democrats crossed party lines and voted the way they felt was right, Republicans voted in lockstep.

yorick73
09-17-2009, 02:51 PM
Wondering about that. When did the tighty rightys find out about Saul Alinsky? When did they start to care about Saul Alinsky?

I dimly recall him being quoted regarding a "news story" that Abbie Hoffman's Yippie Party was central to organizing the Days of Rage fiasco at the Democratic Convention of 1968....

"Organize? You kidding? Those guys couldn't organize a Hadassah luncheon!"

Could be this article

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/24/AR2007032401152.html

Or, maybe, it was that passage Michelle Obama lifted from Alinsky.

emacknight
09-17-2009, 04:00 PM
My post is my comment.


"None are so blind as those that will not see"

I believe the correct expression is, "My post is my cite."

Bricker
09-17-2009, 05:17 PM
However, the point still stands- Democrats crossed party lines and voted the way they felt was right, Republicans voted in lockstep.

Or... Republicans and some Democrats voted the way they knew was right, and some Democrats were too spineless to defy their party and vote they way they knew was right.

JXJohns
09-17-2009, 05:19 PM
Or... Republicans and some Democrats voted the way they knew was right, and some Democrats were too spineless to defy their party and vote they way they knew was right.

I like that one much better

gonzomax
09-17-2009, 06:27 PM
The head of ACORN, Bertha Lewis, is on Democracy Now. She said that these people tried to pull this scam off in several offices. They got thrown out the door in several cases. She also says that no paper work was ever filed by any office that they went to including the ones in the tapes. They have 60 some offices open right now. This is just a way to get ACORN. Unfortunately it seems to have worked.

Ludovic
09-17-2009, 06:39 PM
It's not at all surprising that Republicans were unanimous, since they've always been opposed to providing funds to Acorn. The surprise is that so many Democrats are abandoning them. Makes you want to re-think your curt dismissal of all the evidence, doesn't it?WTF? what does votes on the congress floor have to do with evidence?

wolf11469
09-17-2009, 07:25 PM
The head of ACORN, Bertha Lewis, is on Democracy Now. She said that these people tried to pull this scam off in several offices. They got thrown out the door in several cases. .

Just out of curiosity, has Acorn offered any proof of multiple scam attempts?

elucidator
09-17-2009, 07:36 PM
The Pubbies hate ACORN because they are sneaky progressives. They are using the perfectly blameless process of registering voters to put their agenda forward. They seek out the disenfranchised and apathetic, and remind them that, yes, indeed, this is their country, too. That those recently refreshed citizens are more likely to lean leftish has not, I am sure, escaped their attention. So much the better.

But if the disadvantaged portion of our population doesn't much love Republicans, how is that ACORN's fault?

gonzomax
09-17-2009, 08:40 PM
Just out of curiosity, has Acorn offered any proof of multiple scam attempts?

They don't tape everybody, but they have testimony from employees.

Frank
09-17-2009, 08:51 PM
Just out of curiosity, has Acorn offered any proof of multiple scam attempts?
I think it's common sense. I find it highly doubtful that every ACORN employee approached confessed to killing their husband.

Some honesty on this from the operatives would be nice: "I approached 28 ACORN offices, and 23 of them told me to go to hell."

Nars Glinley
09-17-2009, 08:53 PM
They don't tape everybody, but they have testimony from employees.

It would help their case if anyone of those that turned away Pimp Daddy had told their superiors and someone wrote it down.

elucidator
09-17-2009, 09:15 PM
Insufficient paranoia.

Bricker
09-17-2009, 09:20 PM
The head of ACORN, Bertha Lewis, is on Democracy Now. She said that these people tried to pull this scam off in several offices. They got thrown out the door in several cases. She also says that no paper work was ever filed by any office that they went to including the ones in the tapes. They have 60 some offices open right now. This is just a way to get ACORN. Unfortunately it seems to have worked.

I may be remembering wrongly, and if I am, please correct me...

...but after the first tape, the Baltimore tape, was released, did I see someone from ACORN say that the filmmakers tried this scam all over the country, and it only worked in Baltimore?

Diogenes the Cynic
09-17-2009, 09:22 PM
ACORN has no burden to prove its own innocence. Those who want to make accusations have the burden. Let's see a specific allegation and some specific proof. Sam stone claims there's "evidence" of something. What is he referring to?

Diogenes the Cynic
09-17-2009, 09:23 PM
I may be remembering wrongly, and if I am, please correct me...

...but after the first tape, the Baltimore tape, was released, did I see someone from ACORN say that the filmmakers tried this scam all over the country, and it only worked in Baltimore?
They seem to be correct. The California tape is bullshit, and no other office seems to have taken the bait on the "underage prostitution" thing.

Diogenes the Cynic
09-17-2009, 09:24 PM
It would help their case if anyone of those that turned away Pimp Daddy had told their superiors and someone wrote it down.
Why would they do that?

Frank
09-17-2009, 09:29 PM
I may be remembering wrongly, and if I am, please correct me...

...but after the first tape, the Baltimore tape, was released, did I see someone from ACORN say that the filmmakers tried this scam all over the country, and it only worked in Baltimore?
I think you're remembering more or less correctly. As I recall, they said it had been tried at six offices, and only worked in Baltimore.

I think it's obvious that they tried at far more offices than six, and that far more than one bit. (Even leaving aside San Bernadino.)

I think that ACORN's calling for an independent investigation of themself is a good thing. I think it's the only way they can save themselves. They do very good and very useful work, but to have - hell, I dunno - 5% of their offices bite on this is worrisome.

And, frankly, if it turns out that ACORN has institutional problems that require throwing them under the bus, I've no problem with that. The good people will move on to other liberal organizations and continue to do good, and the bad people will not. Works for me.

Nars Glinley
09-17-2009, 09:34 PM
Why would they do that?

I think that a reasonable person at a place of their employment when approached by someone that wanted to participate in clearly illegal behavior, would want to cover their own ass. I've had it drilled into my head more times than I can count, if something seems suspicious: document, document, document.

wolf11469
09-17-2009, 09:38 PM
It would help their case if anyone of those that turned away Pimp Daddy had told their superiors and someone wrote it down.

I would also like to see them release where and when the scammers got "thrown out the door"

Diogenes the Cynic
09-17-2009, 09:40 PM
I don't see why they'd need to cover their own ass if there was nothing to cover. Those who showed these scammers the door are not in any jeopardy.

Diogenes the Cynic
09-17-2009, 09:41 PM
I would also like to see them release where and when the scammers got "thrown out the door"
The scammers are the ones who have the tapes.

And I'll repeat -- ACORN has no burden to prove a fucking thing.

wolf11469
09-17-2009, 09:42 PM
ACORN has no burden to prove its own innocence. Those who want to make accusations have the burden. Let's see a specific allegation and some specific proof. Sam stone claims there's "evidence" of something. What is he referring to?

If Acorn is making accusation of multiple scam attempts is the burden of proof on them?

Diogenes the Cynic
09-17-2009, 09:46 PM
Is ACORN alleging any criminal acts?

Your little bitch boy with the camera is the one making the allegations.

El_Kabong
09-17-2009, 09:46 PM
Since a few posters apparently have decided that this thread is mainly a link drop, I might as well throw one in as well:

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/09/17/blogs/coopscorner/entry5318671.shtml

I think Mr. Cooper hits the main points pretty well. Whatever one thinks of O'Keefe and Giles' little bit of theater, some ACORN staffers have arguably shown remarkably poor judgement, and this has enabled right-wingers to successfully smear the organization with a blanket of shit that will most likely take years to wash away.

Nevertheless, the knee-jerk reaction of Congress to this manfactured 'scandal' is nothing less than a joke. After more than a week, the perpetrators of this drama still have yet to provide unedited tapes to anyone; no one, including ACORN itself, can seem to give a straight answer as to at how many offices the scam was attempted; there remains not the slightest shred of evidence that ACORN's management is guilty of anything more than hiring some staffers with remarkably bad personal judgement, and the only known official investigation by any law enforcement agency launched so far has been a brief check by the San Bernardino police as to whether an ACORN staffer had killed a former husband, which she apparently didn't, so as far as the San Berdoo PD is concerned, case closed. Lastly, there is a woeful lack of investigation by the media over what clearly seems to be a slam-dunk case of misrepresentation by the filmmakers.

I seriously doubt that members of Congress know anything more about any of this flapdoodle than what they've caught in snippets on the news, or in angry letters from constituents. Rarely has so much smoke been generated from so little actual fire, IMO.

Frank
09-17-2009, 09:47 PM
I don't see why they'd need to cover their own ass if there was nothing to cover. Those who showed these scammers the door are not in any jeopardy.
ACORN is indeed in jeopardy. It would be helpful if ACORN could demonstrate the documentation that shows that the vast majority of their employees showed the scammers the door.

I can assure you that if someone came to my place of employment and asked me to do something illegal, not only would I tell my boss about it, I'd document it - just in case. But then, my company has a culture of such; a culture of honesty and following the rules, which culture is unculcated in us constantly, without winks. I am rapidly approaching the suspicion that ACORN has no such culture.

dropzone
09-17-2009, 09:48 PM
People today are media savvy and find the idea that they may end up on some new version of Candid Camera if they play along appealing. The woman who didn't kill her husband? Expansion: The woman IN CALIFORNIA, home of the movie and TV industries, who didn't kill her husband? Did she hand Pimp Daddy her 8x10 and resume after the shooting? And the other lady, suggesting alternative job titles, at the conclusion of the taping did she ask where Allen Funt was?

jayjay
09-17-2009, 09:48 PM
It's "General Betrayus" and MoveOn all over again. Whiff of a relatively low-wattage scandal and the Dems crumple quicker than paper.

wolf11469
09-17-2009, 09:59 PM
Is ACORN alleging any criminal acts?

Your little bitch boy with the camera is the one making the allegations.

They seem to be alleging multiple scam attempts and failures. Would it hurt anything to release a few of the times and places this happened?

Plan B
09-17-2009, 10:03 PM
^^Don't hold your breath

Diogenes the Cynic
09-17-2009, 10:09 PM
They seem to be alleging multiple scam attempts and failures. Would it hurt anything to release a few of the times and places this happened?
They are alleging nothing criminal. They have no burden to prove anything.

It's unlikely that exact times would have been documented anyway. There would be no reason to, since it was obvious this guy was not on the level.

furt
09-17-2009, 10:10 PM
I think you're remembering more or less correctly. As I recall, they said it had been tried at six offices, and only worked in Baltimore.Acorn named five cities (http://hughhewitt.townhall.com/blog/g/ca17d152-59a7-4f3c-ae8c-5a036e9bb79a)at which the filmmakers failed; at two of those, we now know that they did in fact succeed. O'Keefe has said there are more videos to come, so it's possible that more of those cities will be crossed off the failure list.

Certainly it would seem easy enough for ACORN to have a couple of employees step forward and tell about one of these supposedly numerous failed attempts. Given the waty they're getting abandoned politically, it's hard to imagine why they wouldn't be doing this if they could.

I think it's obvious that they tried at far more offices than six, and that far more than one bit. (Even leaving aside San Bernadino.)When the first video came out, the immediate (and defensible) cry heard was "isolated incident." Now we're up to six and counting. If they tried, say, twenty offices (which we have no reason to believe, but we'll give ACORN the benefit of the doubt) and found six of them willing to aid and abet crime, that isn't more damning than if they had gone one-for-one?

Diogenes the Cynic
09-17-2009, 10:11 PM
^^Don't hold your breath
ACORN doesn't have to prove jack shit. Let's see douchey-pimp's unedited tapes.

Frank
09-17-2009, 10:12 PM
When the first video came out, the immediate (and defensible) cry heard was "isolated incident." Now we're up to six and counting. If they tried, say, twenty offices (which we have no reason to believe, but we'll give ACORN the benefit of the doubt) and found six of them willing to aid and abet crime, that isn't more damning than if they had gone one-for-one?
You're probably not arguing with me in this instance, as I should hope the snipped part of your quote and, seperately, my post #454 indicates.

Plan B
09-17-2009, 10:13 PM
Here's Obama's response to the crisis. What a guy!

http://directorblue.blogspot.com/2009/09/breaking-acorn-bombshell-4-due-from.html

Diogenes the Cynic
09-17-2009, 10:14 PM
Acorn named five cities (http://hughhewitt.townhall.com/blog/g/ca17d152-59a7-4f3c-ae8c-5a036e9bb79a)at which the filmmakers failed; at two of those, we now know that they did in fact succeed. O'Keefe has said there are more to come.

When the first video came out, the immediate (and defensible) cry heard was "isolated incident." Now we're up to six and counting. If they tried, say, twenty offices (which we have no reason to believe, but we'll give ACORN the benefit of the doubt) and found six of them willing to aid and abet crime, that isn't more damning than if they had gone one-for-one?
No. It's equally meaningless. Sorry.

We haven't really seen good evidence that any of them were being serious anyway. Douchey-boy hasn't helped his own credibility by hiding evidence.

wolf11469
09-17-2009, 10:32 PM
They are alleging nothing criminal. They have no burden to prove anything.

It's unlikely that exact times would have been documented anyway. There would be no reason to, since it was obvious this guy was not on the level.

I don't think an exact time would be necessary. If the employees can remember showing this guy the door I imagine they can remember within a day or two when it happened

El_Kabong
09-17-2009, 10:33 PM
Here's Obama's response to the crisis. What a guy!

http://directorblue.blogspot.com/2009/09/breaking-acorn-bombshell-4-due-from.html

Would you be kind enough to point out where specifically there was was a response from Obama himself to the current scandal in all that rather, er, slanted verbiage?

Also, WTF is up with all the link-dumping from you guys?

furt
09-17-2009, 10:40 PM
You're probably not arguing with me in this instance, as I should hope the snipped part of your quote and, seperately, my post #454 indicates.Sorry; I misunderstood.

Plan B
09-17-2009, 10:46 PM
Would you be kind enough to point out where specifically there was was a response from Obama himself to the current scandal in all that rather, er, slanted verbiage?
Why would that be important? Are you saying he's not responsible for the actions of his lackeys?

Look it's a great web site and it shows how BHO has been involved with this gang of thieves. And if you had any sense of drama, you'd realize what a great story this is. In fact, maybe this will turn out to be the best part of it. Can't wait for tomorrow's installment.

Diogenes the Cynic
09-17-2009, 10:51 PM
I don't think an exact time would be necessary. If the employees can remember showing this guy the door I imagine they can remember within a day or two when it happened
These incidents happened months ago.

jayjay
09-17-2009, 10:52 PM
"Lackeys"? Do you people listen to yourselves? Next you'll be giving the man a secret undersea headquarters and sharks with lasers on their heads...

Diogenes the Cynic
09-17-2009, 10:54 PM
Why would that be important? Are you saying he's not responsible for the actions of his lackeys?

Look it's a great web site and it shows how BHO has been involved with this gang of thieves. And if you had any sense of drama, you'd realize what a great story this is. In fact, maybe this will turn out to be the best part of it. Can't wait for tomorrow's installment.
Obama has no connection to ACORN, and ACORN has not been shown to be guilt of any wrongdoing.

It's a retarded website, by the way.

jayjay
09-17-2009, 10:56 PM
It's a retarded website, by the way.

Well, obviously. It's a right-wing blog. I'd sooner trust a hungry alligator with a taste for human than a right-wing...well, anything.

Frank
09-17-2009, 10:56 PM
Why would that be important? Are you saying he's not responsible for the actions of his lackeys?

Look it's a great web site and it shows how BHO has been involved with this gang of thieves.
OK, *sigh*, I've been doing my absolute best to be even-handed here. Really, I do think I have. Such as you is a good reason I should not be trying.

Please demonstrate to me how ACORN is a lackey of the President.

El_Kabong
09-17-2009, 11:15 PM
Why would that be important? Are you saying he's not responsible for the actions of his lackeys?

No. I'm. asking. you. to. show. me. where. Mr. Obama. is. responding. to. the. ACORN. scandal. as. you. claimed.

Look it's a great web site and it shows how BHO has been involved with this gang of thieves. And if you had any sense of drama, you'd realize what a great story this is. In fact, maybe this will turn out to be the best part of it. Can't wait for tomorrow's installment.

OK, there you go again. What thievery are you talking about?

Look, if you're going to post a cite, it should have at least some tangential relationship to what you claim it's saying. Jeepers.

twhitt
09-17-2009, 11:25 PM
I'm curious about a side matter here. Were these ACORN employees aware that they were being taped? From what I can see, it looks like a hidden-camera operation they had going. This got my attention because I'm under the uninformed impression that it's illegal to make audio recordings (with or without video) in a number of states without the consent of all involved parties.
From this quick search result (http://www.articlesbase.com/national,-state,-local-articles/audio-recording-laws-in-the-us-431017.html),
The 12 states which definitely require all parties to a conversation to consent before it can be recorded are: California, Connecticut, Delaware, Florida, Illinois, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Montana, New Hampshire, Pennsylvania and Washington.Two of the states where these videos were filmed were California and Maryland, and of course I don't have an exhaustive list so there may be others. This cite discusses telephone conversations specifically, but I don't know the state of the law. If the camera was in fact hidden, can anyone with knowledge of the real statues in these states say whether or not it's a potentially criminal action to make these films?

elucidator
09-17-2009, 11:27 PM
So, then, if some local operative for say, oh, a political party, were to illegally disrupt the telephone communication of the rival party in a way that interferes with an election....we can hold the entire party responsible? And, like, demand that nobody ever fund them again, ever!

Totally cool.

Snowboarder Bo
09-17-2009, 11:54 PM
No. I'm. asking. you. to. show. me. where. Mr. Obama. is. responding. to. the. ACORN. scandal. as. you. claimed.



OK, there you go again. What thievery are you talking about?

Look, if you're going to post a cite, it should have at least some tangential relationship to what you claim it's saying. Jeepers.

Maybe he and Sam Stone share their sources.

Euphonious Polemic
09-17-2009, 11:59 PM
I think in may cases there is a fair degree of projection going on here. It may go along these lines:

Republican supporter: "let's see, when my team was in, we started a war based on faulty intelligence, outed a CIA agent because her husband went against party line, conduced wiretaps without warrants, opened secret prisons in other countries and sent people to them for torture...."

"holy crap, the other team is in now!"

"what on earth could they be up to that could compare to what my team just did?"

"This ACORN group is probably a really nasty secret Democrat scheme to take over the world"

Alienhand
09-18-2009, 12:07 AM
Not surprisingly, the intrepid reporters are refusing to talk to CNN (clip (http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/politics/2009/09/17/yellin.acorn.aftermath.cnn?iref=videosearch)).

Gyrate
09-18-2009, 04:45 AM
Somebody wake me up when someone actually proves something (apart from the fact that the Democrats in Congress are sackless wonders, I mean).

emacknight
09-18-2009, 09:08 AM
I think that a reasonable person at a place of their employment when approached by someone that wanted to participate in clearly illegal behavior, would want to cover their own ass. I've had it drilled into my head more times than I can count, if something seems suspicious: document, document, document.

I've wondered this too. But what would you do if two people came to you dressed up in costumes, joking around.

This is where I'm torn because I can't tell if any of this was really taken serious. Imagine you sell cars: Two "customers" enter dressed like gorillas and ask about how many monkeys they could fit in the back of an suv, alluding that they would be taking the monkeys from research facility. Would a) you continue in a professional manner. b) play along, continuing with a some what normal sale, while joking about how the new Ford Escape can carry more monkeys than the Rav4 or Honda CRV. or c) kick them out, and document the process?

I used to teach a lot of university calculus and physics, and I'd say anything to drive home the point. If you taped enough of my tutorials you'd be able to piece together all sorts of inflammatory statements that could lead to a headline of, "University prof caught on tape apparently advising students on how to jump over the Grand Canyon."

Was I actually advising students to jump over the Grand Canyon or was I trying to teach them conservation of energy?

That's on the joking side. I could also see how if you pulled this stunt a few dozen dealerships, you would eventually find a salesman sympathetic to animal rights, who would continue with the sale, and appear to support your cause.

Eventually, you'd have a great piece of gotcha journalism with a headline, "Ford workers caught on tape advising on how to steel monkeys."

Show me a tape of ACORN workers actually trafficking child prostitutes and I'll be outraged. This is such a manufactured crisis it makes me feel sorry for conservatives. This is not a right-wing win.

Remember when liberals thought they had documentation that showed Bush 43 avoided Nam by pretending to fly in the Air National Guard? That's what this sounds like.

RTFirefly
09-18-2009, 09:21 AM
Here's Obama's response to the crisis.
There's a crisis?? :confused:

jayjay
09-18-2009, 09:36 AM
There's a crisis?? :confused:

It seems like an awful lot of right-wingers consider the fact that Obama is president to be a crisis in itself.

cosmosdan
09-18-2009, 09:59 AM
ACORN is indeed in jeopardy. It would be helpful if ACORN could demonstrate the documentation that shows that the vast majority of their employees showed the scammers the door.

I can assure you that if someone came to my place of employment and asked me to do something illegal, not only would I tell my boss about it, I'd document it - just in case. But then, my company has a culture of such; a culture of honesty and following the rules, which culture is unculcated in us constantly, without winks. I am rapidly approaching the suspicion that ACORN has no such culture.

It's a bit confusing. After seeing this kid on TV I have a hard time believing anyone would take him seriously as a pimp. Is it possible all the folks at Acorn were playing along at what they knew was a gag? Since we haven't seen any unedited tapes perhaps he asked them to. But if that was the case why wouldn't we be hearing the ACORN workers telling us that just as the one did.

In a large organization I can understand the firing reaction. I joke around with my regular customers all the time. I'm sure there would be clips that my bosses wouldn't understand if taken out of the joke context.

Somebody needs to investigate from the position of presumed innocence or at least an unbiased search for the truth. Hasn't anyone tried to interview the employees in the videos to hear thier side of it?

Nars Glinley
09-18-2009, 10:01 AM
I've wondered this too. But what would you do if two people came to you dressed up in costumes, joking around.

This is where I'm torn because I can't tell if any of this was really taken serious. Imagine you sell cars: Two "customers" enter dressed like gorillas and ask about how many monkeys they could fit in the back of an suv, alluding that they would be taking the monkeys from research facility. Would a) you continue in a professional manner. b) play along, continuing with a some what normal sale, while joking about how the new Ford Escape can carry more monkeys than the Rav4 or Honda CRV. or c) kick them out, and document the process?


To me, it's going to depend on the offense. The Libertarian in me doesn't have a problem with the lady telling the "hooker" that she needs to call herself a performance artist. When the subject shifts to underage Salvadoran prostitution, I start documenting.

PhiloVance
09-18-2009, 12:49 PM
There's a crisis?? :confused:


Of course, there's no crisis; Austin Statesman thinks so anyway.

http://www.statesman.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/austin/notes/entries/2009/09/16/acorn.html

The answers to both questions are substantially the same. The ACORN story involves an apparent pattern of petty misbehavior elsewhere, which makes it of scant interest to a local newspaper in Austin. To the extent itís a story at all, itís political in nature, with little import in the wider world beyond the spin applied to it; and we, along with every news organization I can see except Fox News, see no connection between videos purporting to catch ACORN employees in foolish behavior and President Barack Obama.
Now, move along, nothing to see here. ;)

gonzomax
09-18-2009, 12:56 PM
Doesn't anyone think when they brought up 13 Salvadorian underage prostitutes ,that ACORN workers did not take them seriously? They went way past believability with the story. The filmers were just playing a game to make ACORN look bad, but nothing ever came from it. No worker sent in paperwork or followed up.

Diogenes the Cynic
09-18-2009, 12:56 PM
The Austin Statesman has it exactly right. I understand that's very disappointing to you, but I'm sure you guys can cobble together some other fake scandal over the weekend. Maybe the President will put ketchup on a hotdog or something.

cosmosdan
09-18-2009, 01:39 PM
Doesn't anyone think when they brought up 13 Salvadorian underage prostitutes ,that ACORN workers did not take them seriously? They went way past believability with the story. The filmers were just playing a game to make ACORN look bad, but nothing ever came from it. No worker sent in paperwork or followed up.

Well that's a dam good point. If they had actually filled out and filed any paperwork to help the fake pimp deceive a federal agency that would be serious. It makes you wonder why OKeefe didn't go there.

elucidator
09-18-2009, 01:48 PM
Was that an option? Did that ACORN office have some special capacity for mortgage applications, or something?

Gangster Octopus
09-18-2009, 02:56 PM
I am busy compiling my list of evil organizations that control the world, but I am not sure where on the list to put ACORN:

1. Illuminati
2. Freemasons
3. Lizard People
4. Triplateral Commission
5. Americorps
6. The NFL
7. Oprah Winfrey
8. Cats
9. Skull & Bones
10. Hypnotoad

I am thinking ACORN goes between The NFL and Orah, but that is just my liberal leanings. I supose it belongs much closer to the top, maybe right after the Lizard People.

jayjay
09-18-2009, 03:01 PM
Your forgot the Bilderbergers.

Gangster Octopus
09-18-2009, 03:04 PM
Your forgot the Bilderbergers.

The Bilderbergers, eh? A little paranoid I think you are. :D

elucidator
09-18-2009, 03:17 PM
Bobby "Howdy Doody" Jindahl has moved fearlessly, just like Gov Pawlenty, and has ruthlessly cut non-existent funding to ACORN! Bold move, dipshit!

http://thinkprogress.org/2009/09/18/jindal-acorn/

(This is a lefty site, and I could have just cited the newspaper article, but I want you to go there. Pay very close attention to the frog with the weird eyes, he'll give you free money and sex....)

Biffy the Elephant Shrew
09-18-2009, 03:19 PM
"Lackeys"? Do you people listen to yourselves?

Yeah--everybody knows Obama has minions.

Bricker
09-18-2009, 03:51 PM
I think you're remembering more or less correctly. As I recall, they said it had been tried at six offices, and only worked in Baltimore.

I think it's obvious that they tried at far more offices than six, and that far more than one bit. (Even leaving aside San Bernadino.)

I think that ACORN's calling for an independent investigation of themself is a good thing. I think it's the only way they can save themselves. They do very good and very useful work, but to have - hell, I dunno - 5% of their offices bite on this is worrisome.

And, frankly, if it turns out that ACORN has institutional problems that require throwing them under the bus, I've no problem with that. The good people will move on to other liberal organizations and continue to do good, and the bad people will not. Works for me.

An extremely reasonable response.

The problem here is not new. Organizations start out with no goals to do noble things, and over time they, or some fraction of their workers, lose sight of their original goals, or so monomanicially follow their goals that they lose sight of the real world effects of what they're doing.

Unions. A great idea. A necessary idea, given that the worker was getting screwed by the robber baron employers. But eventually you have the Teamsters, Jimmy Hoffa, and violence against scabs.

Christianity. Love one another as you love yourself, and love God with your whole heart. That which you do to the least of people, you do to God. Great idea. World-shattering. Fast-forward and you get Fred Phelps, Jimmy Swaggert, and Ted Haggerty.

No organization is immune.

I do find it worth commentary, though, that there are people still reflexively defending the actions on tape, or excusing them... as though they cannot bring themselves to say what you just said: ACORN does a boatload of good work and are a noble idea, but there's a problem in how they do things that is systemic enough that it has to be dealt with.

Bricker
09-18-2009, 03:58 PM
It's equally alarming -- perhaps more so -- to see OTHER people reflexively tying the President in to ACORN, as though he is some sort of masked villian with an alter ego as CEO of ACORN, and we're just days away from the damning proof.

The only real link Obama has to ACORN is that it seem clear ACORN wanted Obama to win the election. Since they appear to have been joined in this venture by about 50 million other people, it's absurd to single them out for anything related to Obama. Seriously -- do you people have some script that requires you to tie in Obama somehow? It's ridiculous; cut it out.

Digital Stimulus
09-18-2009, 04:30 PM
The only real link Obama has to ACORN is that it seem clear ACORN wanted Obama to win the election.
One way I heard it: the "links" between Obama and ACORN are as tenuous as those between Al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein.

The most concrete link, of course, is that both serve the Republican party's political purposes.

Evil One
09-18-2009, 08:04 PM
For those who think the tapes have somehow been "doctored", I offer the following information.

First, O'Keefe was smart enough to put a visible timecode at the top left of the tapes. That's 30 frames per second visibly ticking by one frame at a time. If the individual portions shown on youtube and FOX were edited to somehow insert or remove individual shots within the video clips shown, it would appear in the timecode which would then be out of sequence. Since it runs from start to finish from the beginning of the clip to the end, no video editing has taken place.

Second, you can watch the lips of the people speaking and see that no audio overdubbing has taken place. With a non-linear editing system, it would be possible to eliminate all audio from the video and replace it...but you cannot edit ambient sound and the spoken words separately without recording them on separate audio channels to begin with. Since the audio from the ACORN workers is heard along with the ambient sound and the speaking voices of Giles and O'Keefe, that means one mic was used...the one attached to the hidden camera. If all the audio is recorded on one mic, it can't be separated in post-production. It's all mixed together at the recording source.

Some people have asserted that the ACORN workers were answering harmless questions and that the "child prostitution" language was somehow "dubbed in later". With a visible time code and one audio source, the only way for this to happen would be to somehow record the ambient sound without anyone talking. Then they would have to lay it down as a base track (at exactly the same audio level as the original, with perfect timing about what was going on in the background so it would sound the same) and then carefully substitute in the alternate dialogue...making sure that the timing is correct as far as the number of seconds it would take to speak both the "real" and "fake" questions. The timing would have to be the same to avoid either too much silence at both ends of the edit or stepping on the original audio at the beginning or the end. Oh, and make sure the audio levels of both sets of dialogue is exactly the same.

This procedure would have to be repeated for each instance of "overdubbing". Even the one and two word answers.

Frylock
09-18-2009, 08:20 PM
For those who think the tapes have somehow been "doctored", I offer the following information.

First, O'Keefe was smart enough to put a visible timecode at the top left of the tapes. That's 30 frames per second visibly ticking by one frame at a time. If the individual portions shown on youtube and FOX were edited to somehow insert or remove individual shots within the video clips shown, it would appear in the timecode which would then be out of sequence. Since it runs from start to finish from the beginning of the clip to the end, no video editing has taken place.


I don't know of any evidence that the tapes were doctored. But regarding the point quoted above, couldn't they just paste on a timecode after the editing?

Second, you can watch the lips of the people speaking and see that no audio overdubbing has taken place. With a non-linear editing system, it would be possible to eliminate all audio from the video and replace it...but you cannot edit ambient sound and the spoken words separately without recording them on separate audio channels to begin with. Since the audio from the ACORN workers is heard along with the ambient sound and the speaking voices of Giles and O'Keefe, that means one mic was used...the one attached to the hidden camera. If all the audio is recorded on one mic, it can't be separated in post-production. It's all mixed together at the recording source.

I think the idea is supposed to be that they just added in sound. You can't see Giles and O'Keefe's mouths for most of the clip, so it wouldn't be hard to just dub in dialogue for them, would it?