A thread disappeared

[Liberal]

God, I can't even remember who the OP was. It was a great set of ideas, a great set of images, and a great set of java scripts. What happened to it? Why was it disappeared? What was wrong with users freely and willfully chosing to download his/her scripts?

[Trepa Mayfield]

His entirely optional, end-user specific idea for a Greasemonkey thingy seemed really cool. Why did you delete the thread?

[wierdaaron]

Yeah, that was me. I don't know what happened. I didn't get a PM or anything about it. I spent a considerable amount of time on that thread...

[BigT]

For once, I honestly think the people running this board have no idea what they are doing. Sad, really.

Either that, or they just violated their own "Don't Be A Jerk" rule.

Man, I'm not usually this rude. But I do expect them to uphold some rules of human decency, and to have some technical knowledge. There is absolutely no rule they can lean on to claim what they did was right. If I were more cynical, I'd assume they knew this, and that is why they tried to get rid of the evidence, rather than just lock the thread with a note addressing what they were discussing.

Whatever happened to transparent administration?

[runner pat]

It might have come under the rule about advertising.

[Trepa Mayfield]

Yeah, that was me. I don't know what happened. I didn't get a PM or anything about it. I spent a considerable amount of time on that thread...

Yeah, I thought it was a really cool idea too. Would have helped immensely in the Mafia games.

[wierdaaron]

This thread title is how I found out it happened. I assume I'm going to get a PM about it. Rather, I hope.

[BigT]

It might have come under the rule about advertising.

The advertising rule only works if the person was selling a product or directing people to a website. This was doing neither, as anyone with any breadth of intelligence would know if they read it.

And, anyways, they did it without even notifying the OP!!! WTF!!!!

[The Tao's Revenge]

The script idea was awesome. Then just vanished. It looked like you spent hours typing that, and making the images, plus heaps of time on the actual script. Then gone without a word.

[wierdaaron]

I got a PM from an administrator about it. That's about it.

[BigT]

Man, I'm being really mean today. I'm changing meds, if that can be an excuse.

I'm the guy who usually waits until he's cooled down to post, and I didn't this time.

I'm sure that someone thought it was advertising, and nuked it without realizing what it really was. I mean, I'm the guy who says that people aren't inherently mean, and usually have what they consider to be a good reason for doing stuff.

Come on, SDMB staff. Don't let me down.

[TubaDiva]

We're not being mean. We're discussing this situation right now because we don't permit this kind of thing without advance permission. You just can't throw stuff up like that without clearing it first.

This is how we've always done business and it's how we do business for most anything out of the ordinary you might want to do. Mostly we approve. He didn't give us a chance to do that so now we're dealing with it.

[Giles]

I got a PM from an administrator about it. That's about it.
If (as it sounds) there's been a misunderstanding here -- i.e., you suggested a technical innovation for the SDMB, which an admin has thought was just a form of advertisement -- I hope this can be clarified.

Of course, not all technical improvements are possible, or even practical, but at least we Dopers should be able to discuss them.

[TubaDiva]

Merged both the threads on this topic together.

Again, to repeat: It's being discussed. If the OP had come to us first like you're supposed to this maybe wouldn't be an issue.

[wierdaaron]

I think everybody misunderstood everything.

A greasemonkey script is something people download on their own to augment their own experience of a website. I wasn't trying to modify the forum or suggest improvements.

Like I said when I responded to the admin's PM, it's exactly the same as if I made a thread saying you can change the default font in your browser to make SDMB easier to read. It was deleted, though, as if I were broadcasting a pirate radio signal with instructions for how to dismantle the forum. Hack the planet!!

[BigT]

merged both the threads on this topic together.

Again, to repeat: It's being discussed. If the op had come to us first like you're supposed to this maybe wouldn't be an issue.

There is no rule saying that he had to do this! So why be so rude for not following an unwritten rule?

[wierdaaron]

Twice I considered asking one of the mods for their thoughts about the script before I continued working on the script, and both times I thought, "Nah, why the hell should they care?"

"we don't permit this kind of thing without advance permission"

I don't know what "this kind of thing" is. There's a rule in place about user-generated optional userscripts?

I'm reminded of the first time I brought a palm pilot into middle school and the teachers all debated which rule they could use to forbid me from using it, rather than figuring out what it was and if it posed a threat to anybody.

This has all been very disillusioning.

[MsWhatsit]

Yes, I just read through the registration agreement and all of the FAQs, and I don't see anything about having to ask administrators for permission before posting scripts that will change your browser experience. Maybe that's one of those unwritten rules that everyone is just supposed to know about, but wierdaaron is a relative newbie. And anyway, I didn't know about this rule either, and I've been around since 2000.

Before sniping at people that they could have avoided this if only they had bothered to follow the rules, you might want to actually write down the rules. I'm just saying.

[runner pat]

From the registration agreement.

This message board is intended as a medium for public discussion. Do not post spam, including but not limited to advertisements, chain letters, pyramid schemes, solicitations, offers to trade or barter, charitable appeals, or other messages primarily intended to promote a cause, venture, organization, event (except Straight Dope-related events), website, or other entity or activity, whether or not money is involved.

I'm presuming it had something to do with this.

[TubaDiva]

Big T, you should be more civil about this. Shouting is not useful and is abusive. This is not the Pit. I'm not shouting at you and I'm not being rude, you too should likewise be courteous.

And there is this:

Straight Dope Message Board Registration Agreement (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=423183)

Vandalism, tampering, or any other abuse of the site is grounds for immediate banning.

Throwing scripts up that we don't know about and have not approved in advance is potentially abuse of the site; we don't know about it, we don't know what's in it. This is a moderated board and we require that you ask permission for everything out of the ordinary and that includes strange scripts from people we don't know. It's not an excessive request and has been in place as long as we've been here.

[The Tao's Revenge]

runner pat how does that not bar every possible thing?

[Trepa Mayfield]

Big T, you should be more civil about this. Shouting is not useful and is abusive. This is not the Pit. I'm not shouting at you and I'm not being rude, you too should likewise be courteous.

And there is this:

Straight Dope Message Board Registration Agreement (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=423183)



Throwing scripts up that we don't know about and have not approved in advance is potentially abuse of the site; we don't know about it, we don't know what's in it. This is a moderated board and we require that you ask permission for everything out of the ordinary and that includes strange scripts from people we don't know. It's not an excessive request and has been in place as long as we've been here.

Right, right, I get that. But from what wieederon said, it seems like the script would be on the user's computer, and not directly affect the SDMB any more than Ad-Block Plus does.

[MsWhatsit]

Snarky comment: So, strange scripts from people you do know, would be OK?

Non-snarky comment: You should modify the registration agreement to specify that users should get admin approval before posting any scripts, because it honestly would not have occurred to me that a script that changed the browser experience would count as something that was "vandalism, tampering, or other abuse of the site." It's not doing anything to the site. So if your policy is that any script is suspect because you don't know what it does, then that's what should be in the registration agreement. I am being serious and not snarky.

[The Tao's Revenge]

Big T, you should be more civil about this. Shouting is not useful and is abusive. This is not the Pit. I'm not shouting at you and I'm not being rude, you too should likewise be courteous.

And there is this:

Straight Dope Message Board Registration Agreement (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=423183)



Throwing scripts up that we don't know about and have not approved in advance is potentially abuse of the site; we don't know about it, we don't know what's in it. This is a moderated board and we require that you ask permission for everything out of the ordinary and that includes strange scripts from people we don't know. It's not an excessive request and has been in place as long as we've been here.

It doesn't affect the site at all. Anyone who doesn't install the script will see the site as it is. This script is no different then a pair of sunglasses. Sunglass don't actually make the world darker, they just make it appear darker for someone who puts them on. The script just works in their browser alone.

[BigT]

Big T, you should be more civil about this. Shouting is not useful and is abusive. This is not the Pit. I'm not shouting at you and I'm not being rude, you too should likewise be courteous.

And there is this:

Straight Dope Message Board Registration Agreement (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=423183)



Throwing scripts up that we don't know about and have not approved in advance is potentially abuse of the site; we don't know about it, we don't know what's in it. This is a moderated board and we require that you ask permission for everything out of the ordinary and that includes strange scripts from people we don't know. It's not an excessive request and has been in place as long as we've been here.

You weren't yelling, but you were accusing wierdaaron of doing something he obviously didn't. Why is it his fault that you guys don't know what a greasemonkey script is? Why should you have expected him to ask your permission, when it doesn't in any way change anything on your side?

As I suggested before, I believe that whoever removed this thread did not know enough about the subject to have responded to it. You have given me no indication otherwise. You have, however been quite condescending by assuming that weirdaaron knew you were going to freak out about this.

And, frankly, this is the Pit when talking to Mods as mods. It's all we've got. I wanted to make sure the sentence I wrote got your attention. It seems to have worked. I didn't violate any rules in this forum (as far as I know), although I really, really wanted to.

[TubaDiva]

But it's being offered on our site. If we had just said "sure, yeah, okay" without some vetting and it turned out to be something malicious you'd then be screaming at us for not taking precautions.

An email to any one of us asking a simple question and letting us vet it would have saved an awful lot of agita here.

[wierdaaron]

I'm dealing with this with TubDiva in PM-land, so it's probably best that I stay out of this.

However...

If I resize my browser window back and forth really fast, is that vandalizing the forum?

Because doing that has the same effect on the site, the server, the database, and every other user as does a greasemonkey script.

[Trepa Mayfield]

But it's being offered on our site. If we had just said "sure, yeah, okay" without some vetting and it turned out to be something malicious you'd then be screaming at us for not taking precautions.

An email to any one of us asking a simple question and letting us vet it would have saved an awful lot of agita here.

So what you're saying is, if people download it and it's malicious, people will blame you because the person they downloaded it from just happened to post here about it?

[TubaDiva]

You weren't yelling, but you were accusing wierdaaron of doing something he obviously didn't. Why is it his fault that you guys don't know what a greasemonkey script is? Why should you have expected him to ask your permission, when it doesn't in any way change anything on your side?

As I suggested before, I believe that whoever removed this thread did not know enough about the subject to have responded to it. You have given me no indication otherwise. You have, however been quite condescending by assuming that weirdaaron knew you were going to freak out about this.

And, frankly, this is the Pit when talking to Mods as mods. It's all we've got. I wanted to make sure the sentence I wrote got your attention. It seems to have worked.We're not accusing him of anything. We don't know and we're cautious. It's not personal and I told him that.

I have never been able to understand why being polite and answering questions is seen as condescending. If you're determined to find fault in what I do and you want to be offended I guess that's a good fallback, "She answered my questions . . . but she was being condescending." It's a no-win situation.

No, this is NOT the Pit. And you can talk to us as staffers politely, as we talk to you. This is a place for civil discourse; it's not place to bring bad attitude and it's not a place to be abusive.

[Trepa Mayfield]

"She answered my questions . . . but she was being condescending." It's a no-win situation.

Now see, this is exactly the sort of thing that the script would be useful for.

If the gender of every poster was available for me to see, I wouldn't be having these constant 'you're a she?' moments.

[wierdaaron]

If the gender of every poster was available for me to see, I wouldn't be having these constant 'you're a she?' moments.

I planned to add tha--- I mean... the raain in spaaaiiinn...

[BigT]

Having said all I said, I do want to apologize for my anger; even though I tried my best to channel it to the appropriate level, I'm sure I overshot.

Also, I was unaware that wierdaaron provided any actual links. If he did, I could see the problem. Seeing as I had to ask to beta test it, I assumed there weren't any. Still, if that's the case, breaking the links would have made more sense. And left a note saying you wanted to check it out first, so no one would be tempted to use it.

Oh, and at least I'm smart enough to know that you guys can't be held responsible for a script written by someone else.

Finally, I can understand you guys are probably in the "nuke it first, ask questions later" camp. I still assume you weren't quite sure what a greasemonkey script was, but that you were afraid it might be bad, and thought you'd ask around to make sure. I just wish you guys would let us all know that at the same time as when you act, instead of making people ask.

[wierdaaron]

There weren't any links.

[BigT]

We're not accusing him of anything. We don't know and we're cautious. It's not personal and I told him that.

I have never been able to understand why being polite and answering questions is seen as condescending. If you're determined to find fault in what I do and you want to be offended I guess that's a good fallback, "She answered my questions . . . but she was being condescending." It's a no-win situation.

No, this is NOT the Pit. And you can talk to us as staffers politely, as we talk to you. This is a place for civil discourse; it's not place to bring bad attitude and it's not a place to be abusive.

"If you'd have asked us like you were supposed to...." is inherently condescending. It's acting like the person should know a rule applies when it was unspecific. It is not being polite, it is being snarky.

I, for once, let that get to me, instead of just realizing that's the way Tuba talks. I'm sorry for my anger, but not what I said. I am unaware of any rule governing what size text I am allowed to use in this forum, and, thus, I used it to express my anger without violating the insult rules. If that is not acceptable, I can probably find another way. What do you suggest that would express Size 7 anger? Could I use the smileys?

[MsWhatsit]

Yes; "if you'd just followed the rules we wouldn't have had this problem" is condescending and not particularly polite. No, it's not outrageously rude. But it's not very polite, either. Especially when, like I said earlier, this rule is not really that obvious, especially to someone who's only been on the site for a month.

I guess I'm feeling a little defensive on this topic because I would really like for us NOT to shoo off the few cool newbies that we happen to get these days.

[xash]

wierdaaron's script is a local script that runs on a user's local machine and does not add any load to the SDMB servers, does not modify any server-side code, and does not in any way affect or interfere with the serving of SDMB pages to the rest of the community that doesn't have the local script installed.

This does not qualify as "Vandalism, tampering, or any other abuse of the site is grounds for immediate banning", and does not violate any SDMB rules that I am aware of.

As such, regardless of what you discuss or decide, users do not need permission from the SDMB to use this script on their local machines. There are many sites that have been customized by users using greasemonkey scripts, including Google, Facebook and many other popular websites.

The only thing you may decide to allow or disallow is the discussion of wierdaaron's script on the SDMB. And if you do choose to disallow such discussion, there is nothing to stop users from discussing the script on another board and using it anyway.

[chacoguy]

I've been visiting this place less and less because it's simply too complicated to understand the rules. You guys know that you have most of us by the short-hairs, because we have friendships here, that are vulnerable to being severed by being banned from this board. This has led to obvious abuse and manipulation by the moderators here. I mean it, in the most constructive way; please get some clarity and consistency in how this place is run.



Big T, you should be more civil about this. Shouting is not useful and is abusive. This is not the Pit. I'm not shouting at you and I'm not being rude, you too should likewise be courteous.




Then, From C K Dexter Haven
Now, GODDAM IT PAY ATTENTION!
This is ATMB.

I understand that this quote is from the "Can moderator ignore the rules ..blah, blah? Well, they certainly have ignored the decorum!

[BigT]

I've been visiting this place less and less because it's simply too complicated to understand the rules. You guys know that you have most of us by the short-hairs, because we have friendships here, that are vulnerable to being severed by being banned from this board. This has led to obvious abuse and manipulation by the moderators here. I mean it, in the most constructive way; please get some clarity and consistency in how this place is run.

Then, From C K Dexter Haven
Now, GODDAM IT PAY ATTENTION!
This is ATMB.

I understand that this quote is from the "Can moderator ignore the rules ..blah, blah? Well, they certainly have ignored the decorum!

Well, I could give an obvious out, but I'll wait to see if Tuba figures it out. :p

But I'm not mad anymore, anyways. Next time, I'll use ":mad:x7" (no I won't actually repeat them, as that could be considered rude, too.) My plan has always been to give them as little reason as possible to ban me, whether I agree with the rules or not. If I had my way, we'd have even stricter rules...

[Liberal]

@TubaDiva

I think there might have been an innocent misunderstanding on the part of the staff. What wierdaaron conceived and offered does not in any way affect the SDMB or its server. The script runs on local machines. It's nothing insidious or in any way threatening to you or to the computer that runs the boards. It's script that is hosted by users who choose to use it.

Remember this thread, Could we change the default font (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=426908&highlight=font)? In it, Dead Badger posted instructions on how to individually change our font styles and colors to make the sight more easy for us to read? It's the same sort of thing.

Quite honestly, y'all should be thanking him for all his hard work and effort, since you have no risk associated with it, and the membership at large could greatly benefit from it. But just disappearing it like he was teaching us how to hack the site was wrongheaded and mal-informed.

[spinky]

But it's being offered on our site. If we had just said "sure, yeah, okay" without some vetting and it turned out to be something malicious you'd then be screaming at us for not taking precautions.

I have posted many scripts here helping people solve problems they were asking about. Any of my scripts could have turned out to be malicious too. Was I breaking rules and just "got away with it" because nobody noticed? If the answer is yes, then you have never been clear about that, ever, and maybe it deserves special mention in the rules.

[PuddingCat]

Remember, it's not condescending when she does it. Foolish children, tut-tut!

If anybody is looking for the shark, it passed by underneath us a few years ago. We made a somewhat leaping motion over it.

t.

[TubaDiva]

I've been visiting this place less and less because it's simply too complicated to understand the rules. You guys know that you have most of us by the short-hairs, because we have friendships here, that are vulnerable to being severed by being banned from this board. This has led to obvious abuse and manipulation by the moderators here. I mean it, in the most constructive way; please get some clarity and consistency in how this place is run.







Then, From C K Dexter Haven
Now, GODDAM IT PAY ATTENTION!
This is ATMB.

I understand that this quote is from the "Can moderator ignore the rules ..blah, blah? Well, they certainly have ignored the decorum!I don't like it when he does it either; however, sometimes when y'all mix it up some stoppage seems to be in order. Again, I don't agree with that method but ymmv.

I'm more concerned about the idea that every conversation involving a staffer must be ugly "because this is the only Pit we have." The assumption that staffers are not worthy of basic civility and must be beaten like rented mules in the course of everyday business is greatly disturbing. It was wrong in the Pit and it's even more so here.

[C K Dexter Haven]

First, being "condescending" is not, to my knowledge, a violation of the rules. If it were, we'd be closing down Cafe Society and Great Debates pronto. Being PERCEIVED as condescending, well, that can happen to someone saying "good morning."

Second, the original post said it was greasemonkey script, and contained links. Just because he SAID it was a greasemonkey script doesn't mean that it was -- not from a new poster we don't know who hasn't asked in advance. Heck, I get emails almost every day from people who say that if I click on their link, I'll get a zillion dollars from Nigeria. A post that appears like that, out of the blue, we don't know if it's spam, viral, or what.

And, not every mod is a computer expert. I certainly do not pretend to have a clue what a greasemonkey script is.

One of our guiding principles is: all mod actions are reversible. It therefore seemed prudent to the mod who first saw this to move it away from public viewing, until it could be studied by those who DO know. Are the links legit and safe? Is it really what it says to be? Does it affect the boards in any other way?

I fail to understand the uproar. I'm not sure what the time frame was, but we're talking, what, about two hours (from the time it was moved out of sight until the time it was returned to visibility) for us to check it out?

[MsWhatsit]

Oh, it's back? Groovy.

I was kidding earlier, but just to clarify, are you guys saying that posters that have been around here for awhile can post scripts, but newbies can't? Because that's what I'm getting from Tuba's "from people we don't know" and CK Dexter Haven's "not from a new poster we don't know."

[TubaDiva]

We want to see everything unusual in advance from everyone.

Compare it to another situation where we want to see it in advance of posting -- where someone wants to publicize something they're doing to raise money for some charitable cause. Whether it's someone who has been with the board a long time or someone brand new, we want to know about it before it's posted to the board -- we vet all such situations. You send us an email, we size up the situation and allow a thread on the subject or not. (Mostly we say yes.) We do this with everyone.

[TubaDiva]

We want to see everything unusual in advance from everyone.

Compare it to another situation where we want to see it in advance of posting -- where someone wants to publicize something they're doing to raise money for some charitable cause. Whether it's someone who has been with the board a long time or someone brand new, we want to know about it before it's posted to the board -- we vet all such situations. You send us an email, we size up the situation and allow a thread on the subject or not. (Mostly we say yes.) We do this with everyone.

[MsWhatsit]

OK. Well, if you want to see it in advance from everyone -- which I agree is a reasonable stance -- then I don't understand the commentary above about how this was a script from "someone we don't know." If it doesn't matter, then why make a point of mentioning it?

[TubaDiva]

I might not have disappeared the thread if it was someone I had knowledge of on the board -- though, now that I think about it, if it was someone I knew they probably would have known to ask us first so what we said sounds nonsensical.

[Liberal]

OP Request

Well, it's back now. Everybody has vented, from all the way down to me to all the way up to Dex. So please feel free to close this thread, that it might sink away into oblivion and not clutter up page 1 of ATMB.

Thanks,

Lib

[Munch]

Does that mean we can go back to suggesting people use Firefox now?

[bbs2k]

Now that the thread is back. Could I get a link here please?

[Liberal]

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=531870

[Brainiac]

I think the suggestion is moronic. I hope the thread is deleted. I get tired of self-appointed Gotcha Police who never let you forget anything you said. Grow up! Let the current comment be the one you respond to, not all prior items taken out of time and context. That stuff is for the nastiest political hacks.

[MsWhatsit]

I think the suggestion is moronic. I hope the thread is deleted. I get tired of self-appointed Gotcha Police who never let you forget anything you said. Grow up! Let the current comment be the one you respond to, not all prior items taken out of time and context. That stuff is for the nastiest political hacks.

...wrong thread?

[TubaDiva]

Brainiac, it's not useful to post the same message in two threads. Please do not do this again.

[Brainiac]

Brainiac, it's not useful to post the same message in two threads. Please do not do this again.The thread was described as "vanished", so I posted here. Then it unvanished so that seemed a better place. Now threads are combined, so I think the "problem" is shifting threads.

[aldiboronti]

I think it's quite right to be cautious. Greasemonkey scripts do have potential for misuse.

The first thing to understand about Greasemonkey is that it has full access to the web page. If a web page is displaying sensitive information like account numbers, Greasemonkey can see it. Therefore, a compromised Greasemonkey can do great damage by virtue of the information it can steal.

The second issue to understand is that Greasemonkey is powered by JavaScript and has access to features like event handlers. This can enable GM to snoop on anything the user is doing within the page. For example, a compromised Greasemonkey could capture user input, like the entry of a password.

Finally, Greasemonkey operates at a higher privilege level than normal JavaScript, giving it even more power. The most important capability is the ability for Greasemonkey to be immune to cross domain browser security.

I remember reading the above page (http://peterlaird.blogspot.com/2007/08/enterprise-greasemonkey-beware-of.html) when I was playing about with Greasemonkey a couple of years ago. You have to be careful with this stuff, and even with plain old JS. The mods were right to close the thread until the pros and cons have been weighed thoroughly.

[Scissorjack]

We want to see everything unusual in advance from everyone.

You fail jurisprudence forever.

[Liberal]

I think it's quite right to be cautious. Greasemonkey scripts do have potential for misuse.



I remember reading the above page (http://peterlaird.blogspot.com/2007/08/enterprise-greasemonkey-beware-of.html) when I was playing about with Greasemonkey a couple of years ago. You have to be careful with this stuff, and even with plain old JS. The mods were right to close the thread until the pros and cons have been weighed thoroughly.What you say is absolutely true. We do have to be careful. We, the membership, I mean. What wierdaaron has done is offer to have his code tested and examined by members with the expertise to see whether his code has security holes. That's the beauty of it. It's not just a great idea; it's something he's letting us look at from under the hood.

The same kind of caveat emptor advice applies to everyday life, I think. Get a mechanic to look at any used car you want to buy. Hire a plumber to fix the leaky pipe before you flood the kitchen. Let the septic tank guy have a look at whether you're getting close to the top. We're doing that here — having a look at whether it's okay. By open invitation.

[spinky]

Yes, and it's no worse than my posts I've mentioned where I wrote little scripts to solve some particular problem someone was asking about -- they have just as much opportunity to be malicious and should be treated with the same amount of caution. No admins or mods have answered my question as to whether I was violating any kind of rule or should have asked permission first. Here (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10697693&postcount=15) is an example. It would be nice to know if I'm expected to stop answering questions in this way.

[wierdaaron]

Speaking of changing fonts... I used Stylish to change the post font from Trebuchet to 'Helvetica Neue' and it's quite nice.

I'll probably end up completely restyling it for myself one of these days, perhaps something in the spirit of this (http://www.iamadtaylor.com/helvetical/) and this (http://helvetireader.com/).

[aldiboronti]

What you say is absolutely true. We do have to be careful. We, the membership, I mean. What wierdaaron has done is offer to have his code tested and examined by members with the expertise to see whether his code has security holes. That's the beauty of it. It's not just a great idea; it's something he's letting us look at from under the hood.

The same kind of caveat emptor advice applies to everyday life, I think. Get a mechanic to look at any used car you want to buy. Hire a plumber to fix the leaky pipe before you flood the kitchen. Let the septic tank guy have a look at whether you're getting close to the top. We're doing that here — having a look at whether it's okay. By open invitation.

Oh, I agree, I think wierdaaron is to be commended for his initiative. My point was a general one. With anything involving scripts the mods need to examine the idea before its put on general offer to members. They would be the first to bear the blame if a malicious script did appear in a thread and they had made no attempt to check it.

[C K Dexter Haven]

Oh, I agree, I think wierdaaron is to be commended for his initiative. My point was a general one. With anything involving scripts the mods need to examine the idea before its put on general offer to members. They would be the first to bear the blame if a malicious script did appear in a thread and they had made no attempt to check it.Well, yeah, but it's also not just a matter of blame. It's also a matter of wanting our Message Boards to be safe.

[Liberal]

Actually, with wierdaaron's script, we couldn't harm your message board; but your message board could harm us.

(Still, your point is taken, and you're right.)

[ultrafilter]

And, not every mod is a computer expert.

Serious, good faith question: Is there any mod who could be described as a computer expert, or who even does have a technical background? The only one I ever knew of was xash, and now that he's stepped down, I'm not aware of anyone who has that kind of knowledge.

[BigT]

First, being "condescending" is not, to my knowledge, a violation of the rules. If it were, we'd be closing down Cafe Society and Great Debates pronto. Being PERCEIVED as condescending, well, that can happen to someone saying "good morning."

Second, the original post said it was greasemonkey script, and contained links. Just because he SAID it was a greasemonkey script doesn't mean that it was -- not from a new poster we don't know who hasn't asked in advance. Heck, I get emails almost every day from people who say that if I click on their link, I'll get a zillion dollars from Nigeria. A post that appears like that, out of the blue, we don't know if it's spam, viral, or what.

And, not every mod is a computer expert. I certainly do not pretend to have a clue what a greasemonkey script is.

One of our guiding principles is: all mod actions are reversible. It therefore seemed prudent to the mod who first saw this to move it away from public viewing, until it could be studied by those who DO know. Are the links legit and safe? Is it really what it says to be? Does it affect the boards in any other way?

I fail to understand the uproar. I'm not sure what the time frame was, but we're talking, what, about two hours (from the time it was moved out of sight until the time it was returned to visibility) for us to check it out?

The outrage is simple. You didn't tell us what you were doing. You guys have never volunteered this type of information. You also have a history of doing things that the other members find questionable. So it gets difficult not to assume malevolence on your part. If you try to hide what you are doing, people tend to assume the worst. I try to overcome that tendency, but I sometimes fail. And when I fail, I tend to fail big.

My beef was that I interpreted the deletion not as you guys just reviewing it, but outright banning it. There were also other times I had seen you guys act like jerks, but went out of my way to give you the benefit of a doubt and often even defend you. But, apparently, I hadn't actually been forgiving you. This particular instance may have been a minor thing, but it hit home for some reason. Perhaps it was just the medicine thing I mentioned earlier.

After that, I was really was frustrated about being unable to pit you guys since I was feeling so much anger. (The anger itself may be illogical, but that's usually the case with silly emotions like that.) As far as I know, pitting moderating decisions is still verboten, despite your personal claims to the contrary. Sure, I might not get in trouble with you, but other mods tend to go by the book.

Finally, I still think you guys should consider heading off any possible backlash by explaining yourselves either ahead of time, or it you still want to be super cautious, at least as quickly as possible afterward. Especially when it comes to hiding threads. I'm sure I'm not the only one for whom that type of censorship is a major pet peeve.

[samclem]

Serious, good faith question: Is there any mod who could be described as a computer expert, or who even does have a technical background? The only one I ever knew of was xash, and now that he's stepped down, I'm not aware of anyone who has that kind of knowledge.

You're certainly correct in that none of us have the abilities of Xash. I believe Invisible Wombat and SkipMagic probably have the best depth of computer background of the group. I'm not speaking for them, but from discussions in the Mod loop, this is my impression. If I've overlooked someone, it was inadvertent

[BigT]

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=527248

I'm not trying to be rude, but I'm still unclear on the rule about scripts. Was this one asked about ahead of time?

I'm actually worried that my anger outburst has totally ruined my reputation amongst the mods on the Dope. (I doubt anyone else had even noticed me)I sincerely hope I can make up for it in the future. Assuming the board itself still has one.

[wierdaaron]

I'd not worry about it.

[spinky]

Actually, with wierdaaron's script, we couldn't harm your message board; but your message board could harm us.

They're actually right to be somewhat cautious; the script could end up harming the message board if wierdaaron turns out to be some sort of credential-harvesting jerkwad. After PMing with him quite a bit, I get a pretty good feeling about his intentions and I've also read the code, so I have a certain level of trust in it, but to play devil's advocate, it still could be a trick, and he could hypothetically get us all to trust him and then later when we're not expecting it he slips something nefarious into one of the "updates" since we're not reading them as closely at that point.

If this were to happen, say after the script became popular enough that it was fairly commonplace for noobs to be told "yeah, go get the optifixer addon script <here>; it makes the board better", it wouldn't technically be the board's fault, since they didn't endorse the code as safe, but it would still be damaging to the board's reputation and a total pain in the ass for the staff if, say, the result was that some snarkpit person suddenly had a couple hundred sock accounts that used to be active users.

That said, I think the caution should be limited to maybe a mod note in posts publicizing the script that says something to the effect of "THE SDMB DOES NOT ENDORSE THIS SCRIPT IN ANY WAY AND BY RUNNING IT YOU ASSUME ALL RISKS ASSOCIATED WITH IT. ONLY RUN THIS SCRIPT IF YOU TRUST WIERDAARON" and/or an announcement about that.

[SkipMagic]

Serious, good faith question: Is there any mod who could be described as a computer expert, or who even does have a technical background? The only one I ever knew of was xash, and now that he's stepped down, I'm not aware of anyone who has that kind of knowledge.
Actually, I'm a DBA and a systems admin where I run two data centers. In this particular case I was on vacation and mostly out of reach, and even then I've been spending less and less time moderating the board since my kiddo graduated with a degree in Post-Crawling.

[Liberal]

Yes, good advice all 'round there, ntucker.

[wierdaaron]

I'd be fine with letting a tech-savvy mod look over the code before I push out a new update (v3.4.5 -- mod approved!), though that might impede some kind of critical bugfix or holepatch.

But, yeah, I wouldn't expect the board to endorse it outright unless it became legendary.

[ultrafilter]

Actually, I'm a DBA and a systems admin where I run two data centers. In this particular case I was on vacation and mostly out of reach, and even then I've been spending less and less time moderating the board since my kiddo graduated with a degree in Post-Crawling.

Ah, I didn't know that.

[Liberal]

Actually, I'm a DBA and a systems admin where I run two data centers. In this particular case I was on vacation and mostly out of reach, and even then I've been spending less and less time moderating the board since my kiddo graduated with a degree in Post-Crawling.I couldn't help but smile at that, Skip. They grow so very fast. And yet, in the moment, it seems the hassles will never end. My only advice: stay in good physical (and mental) condition. You'll need all the conditioning you can get once s/he starts running around the house, and wanting to explore everything from the coffee table, to the expensive parlor vase, to the kitchen stove. I envy you. :)

[Gary "Wombat" Robson]

I have done a quick review of wierdaaron's source code, although I haven't had a chance to look closely. The mods and admins are still discussing our official policy on his code, but we will probably end up saying "use it all you want, but if it breaks anything, don't come to us for help."

Serious, good faith question: Is there any mod who could be described as a computer expert, or who even does have a technical background? The only one I ever knew of was xash, and now that he's stepped down, I'm not aware of anyone who has that kind of knowledge.I have a (now-expired) teaching credential in computer science, and used to be an operating systems programmer. I've been a founder and chief tech officer for a software company and a custom microelectronics company, and programmed in everything from PL/1 and FORTRAN to JavaScript and Visual Basic (not to mention a pile of assembly languages). I'm not exactly current on computer science, but I still do PHP/SQL enough to keep my feet wet.

[Liberal]

Those are impressive credentials, Invisible Wombat! I like the oldies like me, who learned FORTRAN and assembler. I've even programmed in machine language. Talk about tedious. Hoo lord. I remember C for Windows 3.1, when we had to draw our own windows and buttons with code. There were no WYSIWIG drag-and-drop visual studios. (Also, incidentally, I've only now noticed that you're a mod.)

[Gary "Wombat" Robson]

Didn't realize you were part of the "old guard," either, Lib. I started out with BASIC, but moved into PL/1 and FORTRAN II pretty quickly. When I was in high school in the 70's, I managed to get into a Pascal course at the university, too.

My first gig in the trade was logic simulation coding, but I did a lot of device driver work for S100-buss (Imsai, Altair...) machines, coding in the bootstraps on the front-panel switches and loading the programs from paper tape.

Ever write idle programs that would blink the front console lights in fun patterns?

[Liberal]

Not really, no. I'm self-taught, having been given a Commodore 64 by a roommate who couldn't pay his rent. Like you, I started with (their version) of BASIC. But I quickly became enamored of the "Peek" and "Poke" commands, which wrote values directly to memory. I went to the local college library which had a book on the machine language for that processor. (Can't remember, was it a 5401 or something like that?) And so, I started writing programs that "poked" values directly into memory. Like this:

10 Poke 36521, 72
20 Poke 36522, 69
30 Poke 36523, 76
40 Poke 36524, 76
50 Poke 36525, 80

The above would put HELLO in the upper left corner of the screen. Soon, I began poking things into the registers (there were only two, I think). And writing much more complicated machine language routines, including a sorting routine that sorted a 2,000 by 2 array in the blink of an eye. The same sort, using Commodore BASIC, took so long that I literally could fix a sandwich and casually eat it, being finished long before the sort was done.

That was what hooked me — the blazing speed of machine code.

But before that, I did attend one semester of college. And I did have a friend taking computer sci. He used a sort of typing machine that produced a stack of punched cards that he carried around with him. (I remember him dropping them once, and screaming curses as they scattered down the stairwell in random positions.) He would take his stacks to the Computer Operator (a position that I suppose no longer exists, except in places still doing COBOL). And it was sort of like the great Wizard of Oz. The Computer Operator would take my friend's cards, and after a couple of days, my friend would pick up his print-out of his code and his result (usually, just a trivial thing, like "42" or something). And it was on that large green and white paper that ran through what we called "high speed printers" because they banged out a whole line at a time. (They were loud.)

Then later, I got an actual 8086, and things went from there. (Fancy too. It had dual floppy disk drives, and a full 640K of ram.)

:D