When did this change?

[A Monkey With a Gun]

Complaints used to go in the pit. They don't now, I get that, but my question was never even answered.

I've been here a long time, and I want to know: What's with the speech code?

And since you locked the thread, I also want to know why. Does all debate regarding moderation have to be shunted to ATMB? When did you all lose your way? It should be more free than "fornicate you!"

[A Monkey With a Gun]

First thread I've ever had locked by the way. Ten years, first thread. I need an explanation, Skip.

[bbs2k]

It's kind of fucked up, eh?

[A Monkey With a Gun]

A bit, yeah.

[A Monkey With a Gun]

Just in case any posters will scroll down the seven freakinn' stickies to read this thread stuck in the backwater that is ATMB, it is this OP (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=534103) that started this mess.

I want an explanation, skip.

[bbs2k]

I want an explanation, skip.Well now I'm boggled.

You started your Pit thread with: "Mods, I post this here because the pit is the place to to bring complaints to. I know that, you know that,"

Skippy explains: "Complaint threads about the SDMB belong in ATMB. Please feel free to start any new complaint threads there."

That's the explanation for the closing. As for an explanation on why the complaint department has a new office... (I started typing but gave up)


ETA: Welcome back!

[A Monkey With a Gun]

I want an explanation for the speech code, and why he didn't give it in the original thread before he closed it.

[leander]

Does all debate regarding moderation have to be shunted to ATMB?

Yes, they're a sensitive bunch doncha know? ;)

[wmfellows]

I want an explanation for the speech code, and why he didn't give it in the original thread before he closed it.

The uptight middle American drone who plays Cecil got his bloody knickers in a knot over the language once he began paying attention to this. Personally I find the idiocy of "fornicate this" to be a greater assault on my senses than Fuck, etc., but if the management are middle-brows, so be it.

[yojimbo]

I want an explanation for the speech code, and why he didn't give it in the original thread before he closed it.Somebody called a mod or an Admin a cunt and it all went downhill from there. The mods where not to be abused. Then Ed decided that telling other members to go fuck themselves etc was was too harsh for the board and would cause problems.

Ed made the changes, lots of people disagreed, some left, two new boards were set up by people and a few joined them.

And here we are. Being treated like children.

[tacoloco]

SThe mods where not to be abused.

Nor should they be abused. There are an awful lot of people here with entitlement issues who think they should be able to say anything they want, any time they want.

SDMB, like most other boards, isn't a democracy. There are rules which need to be
followed, some reasonable, some not. Regardless, we have to follow them if we wish to continue to have the -privilege- of posting here.

OP was WAY out of line in that pit thread.

It would do folks well to keep in mind that most other moderator boards don't allow any public criticism of moderator actions. The "eff you moderators" thread would have been sufficient grounds for losing posting privileges on lots of other boards. We are afforded the ability to criticism moderation here, as long as it's done in a non-abusive way. Don't abuse the privilege.

[fachverwirrt]

The restriction against profanity in pit thread titles was rescinded shortly after it was invoked; about a year ago, now. We're not allowed to say "fuck you" to another poster, but we're still allowed to say "fuck" in the title.

Here's the rule from the Pit sticky:

Don't go nuts in thread titles

Profanity is permitted, but don't get carried away. We reserve the right to do something about thread titles we think are over the top.

[C K Dexter Haven]

These changes were made over six months ago. I don't want to rehash the battle, because there are (obviously) still those who disagree. However, this is the way things are now. A short summary of the changes:

(1) Complaints about moderator action belong in ATMB and need to be civil. You will get more attention to the content of the complaint if it is expressed in a reasonably polite manner. Personal insults of a moderator in the course of their duty are NOT permitted. If should be possible to criticize a moderating decision without saying "fuck you, moderator." (You may still pit moderators for what they say as posters, just like anyone else, but not for carrying out their moderator duty.)

(2) Certain extreme language is forbidden now, even in the Pit; for example, one may not say "fuck you" (or variants) to any poster. We had always said that, even in the Pit, extreme language was not permitted (for instance, a post with "fuck" as every other word.) Unfortunately, we were not enforcing such, and that led to a more strict rule on language and better enforcement.

The overall goal is calmer and more polite discussions, while still offering the opportunity for flaming. We hope that explanation helps, and welcome back after your absence.

PS - This is all pretty well spelt out in Revised Pit Rules (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=507985) posted by Ed Zotti on 2/24.

[A Monkey With a Gun]

I'm cool with that, Dex, I suppose I just miss the old days. I don't even curse much, I just don't like reading a sticky saying I can't. Fight the power and all that. Anywho, it's not really a big deal, but I felt like I had to poke the bear, so to speak.

Main reason was because I really, really hate "fornicate you". You've got to admit that that phrase is fucking* ridiculous.


*Ha! Can't catch me copper! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEwERdL-zwY)

[Gfactor]

and why he didn't give it in the original thread before he closed it.

I'm not going to speak for Skip, but if I had done that, it'd probably be for at least one of these reasons:

1. It was in the wrong forum.

2. If he'd answered and then closed the thread, he'd be criticized for that: Would TPTB please stop using the "close thread" feature as a way to have the last word? (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=531703)

I really, really hate "fornicate you".

Me too. And it wasn't even necessary in the context of the thread title I think you are talking about.

[Liberal]

It isn't true that you cannot criticize the mods. You must do so, however, in a calm and civil manner when you are criticizing their rulings. There is a good reason for this. Mere ranting might serve to make you feel relieved, like the opening of a pressure valve. But it accomplishes nothing toward resolving whatever issues you may have with the ruling you're protesting. Rather, a civil discussion can result (and has resulted on muliple occasions) in a reversal of a ruling, and even an apology.

This is no different than real life. When you approach someone all blustering and in their face, they balk. They put up their defenses, and what you have is a fight, not a discussion. Instead, if you approach someone with humility and respect, they tend to respect you in kind and lift you up. (There are several Biblical references to this, but I won't inject those here.)

Now, having said all that, it is perfectly okay (as I understand it) to Pit a mod-as-poster. In other words, if they posted something about a topic, as opposed to making a ruling, they are fair game just like anyone else.

It doesn't take a member of Giga to understand the difference. Honestly, think about it. Same as in real life again. If someone on the freeway gives you the finger because, in his opinion, you're driving too slowly, then no one can blame you for shooting a finger back at him or yelling an obscenity. But if a cop pulls you over for running a stop sign, screaming and ranting at him would not be a good idea.

[A Monkey With a Gun]

It isn't true that you cannot criticize the mods. You must do so, however, in a calm and civil manner when you are criticizing their rulings. Where's the fun in that? ::chuckle::
This is no different than real life.This isn't even remotely similar to real life. It's a message board.

I think I should be cool with the mods, now. I've always been willing to play by the rules, I just question 'em occasionally.

And Lib, c'mon buddy, you of all people ought to be able to understand that.

[Never Say Dice]

Trying to swear on a message board, any message board, is pathetic (Greek παθητικός pathetikos). It always comes of as juvenile and naïve and jejune.

[A Monkey With a Gun]

You didn't really get the point of this, did you?

[Never Say Dice]

I did, but the "point" was a blunt.

[A Monkey With a Gun]

"Blunt"!? Hell, man, I threw a brick through a window. Can't get more blunt than that.

[Never Say Dice]

Somebody needs a nap.

[MsWhatsit]

Trying to swear on a message board, any message board, is pathetic (Greek παθητικός pathetikos). It always comes of as juvenile and naïve and jejune.

Heh, heh. You said "comes".

[CarnalK]

... pathetic (Greek παθητικός pathetikos). .. naïve ... jejune.
Talk about your jejune. I really hope you were trying to be ironic.

[A Monkey With a Gun]

deleted

[Michael Ellis]

Somebody called a mod or an Admin a cunt and it all went downhill from there. The mods where not to be abused. Then Ed decided that telling other members to go fuck themselves etc was was too harsh for the board and would cause problems.

Ed made the changes, lots of people disagreed, some left, two new boards were set up by people and a few joined them.

And here we are. Being treated like children.

Criminy sakes, I learned on another board that the way to deal with this sort of idiotic drama is to ban the troublemakers, not muzzle everybody from saying a specific word.

It seems to me that I can happily accuse fellow dopers of being pedophiles, plagarists, incestuous pedophile plagarists, unabashed Nazis, or pus and STI-filled infections at the lower end of humanity's intestinal tract, but using a common if obscene insult is verboten. I honestly don't get it.

[C K Dexter Haven]

It seems to me that I can happily accuse fellow dopers of being pedophiles, plagarists, incestuous pedophile plagarists, unabashed Nazis, or pus and STI-filled infections at the lower end of humanity's intestinal tract, but using a common if obscene insult is verboten. I honestly don't get it.You can (possibly) call them such names in the Pit, although I think it would depend on the situation. Accusing someone of plagiarism or other illegal acts, for instance, might be over the top (well, under the bottom, perhaps.) In any case, you certainly can NOT use such terms elsewhere on the boards. And, frankly, calling someone a "pus-infested scourge on humanity" has nowhere the sting that "fuck you" does.

This was debated and discussed, what, eight or ten months ago, so the horse is quite dead, but... The point is that there's a limit to how insulting one can be to other posters, even in the Pit. (Threats, for instance, are a no-no.) The tone in the Pit had become disgusting. The mods and Ed discussed for a lonnnng time, how best to turn things around. I mean, if you want a non-moderated area, there are plenty of other boards. On the other hand, there are plenty of areas where no profanity or insults are allowed at all. We want to be somewhere in the middle. How to reverse the direction? A general concept, like "Let's try not to be quite so venemous," would have been too ambiguous. The only approach considered both enforcable and reasonably clear was to limit "fuck you" and few other such phrases. That doesn't mean that anything not prohibited is permitted; it means that, even in the Pit, there are certain minimum standards of civility.

And, please: this issue is dead, and there's no point in rehashing again. I'm assuming that we have a legitimately confused poster returning after a hiatus; so, I'm willing to bring him up to speed. Once.

[A Monkey With a Gun]

this issue is dead, and there's no point in rehashing again. I'm assuming that we have a legitimately confused poster returning after a hiatus; so, I'm willing to bring him up to speed. Once.Thanks, Dex. That's all that's needed. It is a bit like coming home and finding out that your wife neutered your dog, but if the dog was starting to bite people.....I see it. I didn't mean to re-open old wounds, sorry.

I'll be a good boy, just please don't put that plastic cone around my head.

[Michael Ellis]

You can (possibly) call them such names in the Pit, although I think it would depend on the situation. Accusing someone of plagiarism or other illegal acts, for instance, might be over the top (well, under the bottom, perhaps.) In any case, you certainly can NOT use such terms elsewhere on the boards. And, frankly, calling someone a "pus-infested scourge on humanity" has nowhere the sting that "fuck you" does.

This was debated and discussed, what, eight or ten months ago, so the horse is quite dead, but... The point is that there's a limit to how insulting one can be to other posters, even in the Pit. (Threats, for instance, are a no-no.) The tone in the Pit had become disgusting. The mods and Ed discussed for a lonnnng time, how best to turn things around. I mean, if you want a non-moderated area, there are plenty of other boards. On the other hand, there are plenty of areas where no profanity or insults are allowed at all. We want to be somewhere in the middle. How to reverse the direction? A general concept, like "Let's try not to be quite so venemous," would have been too ambiguous. The only approach considered both enforcable and reasonably clear was to limit "fuck you" and few other such phrases. That doesn't mean that anything not prohibited is permitted; it means that, even in the Pit, there are certain minimum standards of civility.

And, please: this issue is dead, and there's no point in rehashing again. I'm assuming that we have a legitimately confused poster returning after a hiatus; so, I'm willing to bring him up to speed. Once.

Thank for the cogent reply, Dex. I've been on a long hiatus from these boards so I missed whatever debacle you described. In any case, I understand your position. I don't necessarily agree with it, but I can accept it. You're the Admin, after all, not me.

[wmfellows]

It isn't true that you cannot criticize the mods. You must do so, however, in a calm and civil manner when you are criticizing their rulings. There is a good reason for this. Mere ranting might serve to make you feel relieved, like the opening of a pressure valve. But it accomplishes nothing toward resolving whatever issues you may have with the ruling you're protesting. Rather, a civil discussion can result (and has resulted on muliple occasions) in a reversal of a ruling, and even an apology.

Oh bollocks, no form of complaints really accomplished or accomplishes much relative to board administration. This passive aggressive nonsense.


Me too. And it wasn't even necessary in the context of the thread title I think you are talking about.

Then I hope it can be agreed that the ridiculous idiocy of Fornicate This can and should be mocked until its usage slinks off...

OP was WAY out of line in that pit thread.

Oh please, don't be so bloody precious. The OP, a returnee (hmm like from labour camps...) followed old practice and was hardly terribly offensive. A faux pas perhaps, but way out of line would be attacking the current faux Cecil or the admins in some violent manner.

It would do folks well to keep in mind that most other moderator boards don't allow any public criticism of moderator actions.
eh, not in my experience, but perhaps you frequent more milquetoast boards.


Trying to swear on a message board, any message board, is pathetic (Greek παθητικός pathetikos). It always comes of as juvenile and naïve and jejune.

Amusing.

A general concept, like "Let's try not to be quite so venemous," would have been too ambiguous. The only approach considered both enforcable and reasonably clear was to limit "fuck you" and few other such phrases. That doesn't mean that anything not prohibited is permitted; it means that, even in the Pit, there are certain minimum standards of civility..... I'm assuming that we have a legitimately confused poster returning after a hiatus; so, I'm willing to bring him up to speed. Once.

The first item is a reasonable observation, although I was out for the period that probably brought this, but the whole Stasi closing is so very much off putting. accumulated grudges I suppose.

[A Monkey With a Gun]

Oh please, don't be so bloody precious. The OP, a returnee (hmm like from labour camps...) followed old practice and was hardly terribly offensive. A faux pas perhaps, but way out of line would be attacking the current faux Cecil or the admins in some violent manner. That's too funny. I appreciate the support and all, but I wasn't exactly in a "labour camp".

Now that I know what's up, what I should have done is start a pit thread about how stupid "Fornicate you" is, and if I see another thread title with that, I probably will. Just don't make me out as some kind of martyr. If you read through all the mod responses, you'll notice they never even gave me a warning.

You can't climb up on my cross when it doesn't exist, man.

[BigT]

I still don't understand why we can't pit moderating decisions with the caveat that no moderator will actually respond. Heck, I could've sworn I've seen say Dex say as much.

Oh, well. I've recently learned that there is another board for this sort of thing, which cannot be named*

*well, linked to doesn't sound as good

[ToeJam]

I think it can be named now. Or did that change as well?

[Liberal]

Oh bollocks, no form of complaints really accomplished or accomplishes much relative to board administration. This [is] passive aggressive nonsense.That simply is false. Ed's original set of rules was far more strict. He negotiated with the membership, and the community as a whole settled on the final construction. Dex recently had an outburst, and then apologized for it, and changed a ban to a suspension. Other mods have done similar things, admitting "oops, my bad" and then re-opening a closed thread, or retracting an official warning. TubaDiva has changed so much that she is barely recognizable. Her posts (official admin posts) are calm, descriptive of the problem, and very business-like in their tone and tenor. So, you're simply wrong. Sorry.

[Fenris]

Nor should they be abused. There are an awful lot of people here with entitlement issues who think they should be able to say anything they want, any time they want.
This is true...like any board there are "people here with entitlement issues who think they should be able to say anything they want, any time they want. "

There are also sniveling delicate flowers who mis-categorize any disagreement as fighting, overstate the problem by pretending that a whole lot of people feel that way and who's noses are buried so far up the mods asses that they can smell it when the mods burp.

Luckily for me, I don't think there are an "awful lot" of dopers who behave either way so I'm sure I have a more pleasant experience than you.

There's an old Rabbinical story (and it's probably in every other culture too). A couple, pulling a wagon with all their belongings meets a rabbi on a road just outside of a town.

"Rabbi" says the man "We're moving and looking for a new place to settle. What are the people in your town like?

The rabbi says

The wife says "They were spiteful, mean people who had squawling brats for children, they never helped anyone, they were selfish and angry and bitter."

The rabbi shakes his head and says "You wouldn't like it here. You'll find the people in this town exactly like that." and the couple wearily leaves.

Another couple shows up the next day and asks the same question "Rabbi, what are the people in your town like?" and the rabbi asks the same question in return:
"What were the people like in the town you came from?"

The husband and wife both start talking "They were wonderful! We love them and already miss them so much! They'd give you the shirt off their back. Their kids were so wonderful! They were the kindest people we've ever met."

And the rabbi says "Come into our town--you'll find the people there exactly like that."

[Liberal]

You're right, Fen. I've heard that story before as well. It really is multi-cultural. I think my grandmother — full blooded Cherokee — told me.

[Measure for Measure]

Also...

There was a time when a critical mass of posters would reflexively defend the moderation on this board because the mods are - you know - volunteers. For example, when Manhattan singlehandedly supervised GQ, he could be gruff at times. And yet most of us were tickled when the thin skinned or clueless would come whining to the pit.

Then management started charging for membership. Then management stopped requiring payments. Posters came and went. The balance of vitriol shifted in the pit and Ed proposed a few changes. Drama ensued. And here we are.

Anyway it's all good. Two new boards have been enlisted in the fight against ignorance, providing needed backup should the worst occur at SDHQ.
---


I've been on boards where forbidden words are automatically replaced by webmaster-approved images. We could try that here: have the server replace the F-word with a bar of soap or maybe the word "Love".

[I Love Me, Vol. I]

[Peter Gabriel]


We do what we're told...

We do what we're told...

We do what we're told...

Told to do.


[/Peter Gabriel]

[tacoloco]

"There are also sniveling delicate flowers who mis-categorize any disagreement as fighting, overstate the problem by pretending that a whole lot of people feel that way and who's noses are buried so far up the mods asses that they can smell it when the mods burp."

Personal insults are always a pro move, Fenris. Keep up the good work.

I don't know you well enough to know whether you're one of those people who seem to think the rules don't apply to them. But is an undeniable fact that there are people here who are will piss, bitch and moan over almost every little thing the moderators do. Whether that rises to the level of "an awful lot" is entirely up to the reader to decide.

As far as having ones head up the moderator's asses, well, that's one way to see it. Another way to see it is that some folks choose their battles more carefully and SDMB rules don't even make it to the radar screen. The rules here aren't particularly burdensome, especially compared to some other boards I post on. And yet some folks will still bitch because they can't tell someone "fuck you" or a few other words here. Amazingly and stupidly bizarre.

"Luckily for me, I don't think there are an "awful lot" of dopers who behave either way so I'm sure I have a more pleasant experience than you."

Pointing out certain behaviors here doesn't lead to any conclusion about my experience on the board. It's not like board jerks affect me in any way. I get a certain amount of entertainment from then, but they don't substantially alter my experience.

[Fenris]

"There are also sniveling delicate flowers who mis-categorize any disagreement as fighting, overstate the problem by pretending that a whole lot of people feel that way and who's noses are buried so far up the mods asses that they can smell it when the mods burp."

Personal insults are always a pro move, Fenris. Keep up the good work.

It was no more an insult to you than your statement was an insult to me. I know yours didn't apply to me, and as to mine, I wasn't thinking of any specific poster when I wrote that--there are a contingent of people who, on EVERY subject of disagreement between mods and posters resort to demonizing the posters who are disagreeing: "They only want the right to say "cunt"", "They only want to attack the mods and this is just another excuse". You've seen the type and so have I. If you choose to apply it to yourself, hey, whatever floats your boat.

[Chefguy]

Somebody called a mod or an Admin a cunt and it all went downhill from there. The mods where not to be abused. Then Ed decided that telling other members to go fuck themselves etc was was too harsh for the board and would cause problems.

Ed made the changes, lots of people disagreed, some left, two new boards were set up by people and a few joined them.

And here we are. Being treated like children.

They're to be called clefts and protuberances now.

[wmfellows]

That simply is false. .... So, you're simply wrong. Sorry.

Uhuh. I do find your pirouettes impressive, for a Cherokee as it were.

That's too funny. I appreciate the support and all, but I wasn't exactly in a "labour camp". ... You can't climb up on my cross when it doesn't exist, man.

??? Mate, it was a joke - mostly to myself. I don't know how you read Labour Camp, but it wasn't any reference to this board. Jaysus.

[Liberal]

Uhuh. I do find your pirouettes impressive, for a Cherokee as it were.Apparently since you cannot point out any errors or misstatements I made, you resort to insuling me. Was I wrong that Ed enjoined a multi-page thread working out the pit rules? Was I wrong that Dex reversed a ban on Seven to a suspension? Was I wrong that mods have re-opened closed threads and rescinded warnings after members have complained or explained? No. I wasn't. Therefore, there are no pirouettes of any kind, impressive or otherwise. And besides, there is no reason that an Indian is any less capable than anyone else of doing pirouettes if s/he so desired to do them. Finally, the "as it were" is a tacked-on non sequitur intended obviously to question my veracity. I'm afraid you have nothing, wmfellows. Nothing of substance anyway.

[TubaDiva]

Whoa. This started out being a question (that did get answered, albeit snarkily) and has now turned into personal attack.

Enough on all counts. I'm closing this thread.

wmfellows, you don't attack people in ATMB. If you have a problem with Liberal's ethnicity (or anything else), you can take it to the Pit. I am counseling you -- next time will be a formal Warning.