Mahmoud Ahmedinejad is Jewish?

[Argent Towers]

On G. Gordon Liddy's show, there is a guest, "Rabbi Gerald Meister," and the topic of discussion is Mahmoud Ahmedinejad supposedly being Jewish. I am baffled by this. Here's a transcript of the exchange:

Liddy: What do you make of the fact that - and it's proven by documents held aloft by Ahmedinejad in his own hands in 2008 - showing that he's actually Jewish?

Meister: Why am I not shocked? I mean we live in the age of the perverse. And it makes absolute sense that if we are going to do theater of the absurd, then this is just another act.

Liddy: Well, we know that Adolf Hitler was at least partially Jewish ---

Meister: Yes, he had Jewish blood in him -

Liddy: But this man is apparently 100% Jewish.

What the hell is this about? First of all I thought it was completely unproven whether or not Adolf Hitler was Jewish. Nobody can know for sure because apparently his father was illegitimate - but this is not the same as proof that he's partially Jewish. By that same token he could be partially Greek, partially Irish, partially anything. And I've never heard a Jew claim that Hitler was even partially Jewish.

And I also am unaware that Ahmedinejad had any Jewish ancestry. Is there anything to this, or are Liddy and his guest just completely mistaken here?

Meister: Yes, exactly.

[jjimm]

His parents changed their name from a Jewish one (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iran/6256173/Mahmoud-Ahmadinejad-revealed-to-have-Jewish-past.html).

[Monty]

What difference does it make if Hitler's father was Jewish? Doesn't Judaism (at least the sects of Judaism present in Germany and Austria at the time) only consider matrilinear descent for that inclusion?

And how could a practicing Muslim be 100% Jewish?

[Argent Towers]

I really don't have the inclination to go into the whole megillah about it, but in short, being Jewish is more complicated than you seem to think. One can be a practicing Muslim, Christian or atheist and still be Jewish ethnically, which is the only kind that was important to the Nazis and to opponents of Jews in general.

[Bisected8]

What difference does it make if Hitler's father was Jewish? Doesn't Judaism (at least the sects of Judaism present in Germany and Austria at the time) only consider matrilinear descent for that inclusion?

And how could a practicing Muslim be 100% Jewish?

Strictly speaking Judaism is both a race and a religion, as far as my understanding goes (disclaimer: this doesn't go beyond GCSE level RS and wikipedia). It's possible for someone to be ethnically Jewish or practise Judaism without being the other. Islam, like Christianity, is quite heavy on proselytism so an ethnic Jew could convert and still be Jewish.

[UDS]

One who is Jewish by birth, but who converts to Islam (or who is raised from infancy in the practice of Islam) is still Jewish, in the eyes of Jews. He is a Jew who does not keep the Law.

In the eyes of (many) antisemites, he is also Jewish, because for those antisemites Judaism is a matter of genetics, not religious belief or practice. The Nazis, for example, would certainly have treated such a person as Jewish.

But, while Islamists are certainly capable of antisemitism, I think they would happily accept a person of Jewish descent who was rasied as a Muslim and sincerely embraced (their version of) Islam. For them, Judaism (like Islam) is not a matter of genetics but of faith and identity. I don't think Admnedinejad's Jewish background is particularly politically embarrassing to hiim. (If it were, he would hardly be flourishing the documentary evidence in front of the television cameras.)

[wmfellows]

SeeThe Guardian note (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/oct/05/mahmoud-ahmadinejad-jewish-family). It does appear (and knowing the Telegraph, not surprising) someone got a bit into over-reading for the sake of a catchy headline.

But, while Islamists are certainly capable of antisemitism, I think they would happily accept a person of Jewish descent who was rasied as a Muslim and sincerely embraced (their version of) Islam. For them, Judaism (like Islam) is not a matter of genetics but of faith and identity. I don't think Admnedinejad's Jewish background is particularly politically embarrassing to hiim. (If it were, he would hardly be flourishing the documentary evidence in front of the television cameras.)

Yeah, it's all about religion, not 'race' - I suppose that makes the label anti-semite not particularly accurate for this kind of prejudice against Jews, since many Muslims are also Semites.

[Serenata67]

When Conan made comments about it during his monologue, I wasn't quite sure what to make of it. I'm still wrapping my brain around it.

[Exapno Mapcase]

There's something mind-bogglingly perverse about accepting the Nazi's definition of Jewish and applying it to our times.

The better answer is to reject that definition entirely. Judaism then becomes a religion. If you are not an adherent of that religion you aren't Jewish. People should not be held accountable for their ancestors' beliefs in the first place.

If Ahmedinejad was raised from birth as a Muslim and is an adherent of Islam today, then he is not Jewish. Period. It should not matter an iota that some Jews' religious beliefs put a claim on the children of a Jewish woman. No one of any religion or lack of at any time in any country should be culturally bound by the beliefs of a religion they are not a part of. It doesn't matter that it's likely that no one in his family was ever Jewish. Why should that affect him?

Judaism as a culture has even less coherence. Can Irani Jews be said to have anything culturally in common with the German/Eastern European ethnicity that is defined as "Jewish culture" in America? There are long-lived pockets of Jews in Ethiopia and China, too. How culturally Jewish are they? Israel has cultural wars among the multitudes of Jews from different areas of the world who have emigrated to Israel.

Neither definition works for individuals, who are what they choose to be. Ahmedinejad is not Jewish by any conceivable proper definition.

Liddy, OTOH, has always been certifiably insane.

[Captain Amazing]

This is probably the best story as to why his heritage, if he really was born Jewish, might matter:

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2009/10/05/is_mahmoud_ahmadinejad_jewish

[Simplicio]

This is probably the best story as to why his heritage, if he really was born Jewish, might matter:

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2009/10/05/is_mahmoud_ahmadinejad_jewish

Interesting article, though it makes it seem a lot less certain that Ahmadinejad is Jewish. The one jjimm posted made it sound like a certain thing, but from this one it just sounds like he's descended from some ethnic or religious minority which may or may not be Jewish.

[Exapno Mapcase]

The one jjimm posted made it sound like a certain thing,

The Guardian story cited by wmfellows, Ahmadinejad has no Jewish roots (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/oct/05/mahmoud-ahmadinejad-jewish-family), refutes that story point by point.

I'd go with "almost certainly not and never has been Jewish." The word of an expert on Iranian Jews for me trumps a lot of speculation based on one data point.

[Captain Amazing]

Well, sure, absent hard documentation, it's hard to be sure. But (and this sums up the evidence in the Foreign Policy article:

1. -ian/-yan name endings sometimes indicate non-Muslim ancestry, usually Armenian, but not always.
2. Cloth weaving and cloth dying were traditionally "non-Muslim" occupations, because for Muslims, the jobs are religiously unclean
3. the area he comes from had a large Jewish minority that was involved in the cloth trade.

[sweeteviljesus]

Why should it be politically embarrassing to him even if had Jewish ancestry? There are Jewish heroes of the Iranian Revolution after all.

[Captain Amazing]

Read the Foreign Policy article for information why it might be politically embarrassing.

[AskNott]

I have read that Muslims are more peeved at people who have forsaken Islam than at people who have never been Muslim.

Is there a similar pattern in Judaism, that is, a formerly Jewish Muslim is worse than a Muslim who was never Jewish? This is probably a foolish question, but I mean no offense.

[Captain Amazing]

Well, yes, in Judaism, there's nothing particularly wrong with not being Jewish, but being Jewish and then renouncing Judaism is sinful.

[Chronos]

Right, the only rules Jews expect non-Jews to follow are the seven Noahide commandments, which, having been given to Noah, apply to all of Noah's descendants just as the Mosaic law applies to all of Moses' descendants. From memory, they're:
No idolatry
No blasphemy
No stealing
No murder
No eating the limb of the living
No incest
Be civilized
(not necessarily in that order).

[Captain Amazing]

Not "be civilized", so much as "set up courts that will punish people who do the other six things".

[AskNott]

Well, yes, in Judaism, there's nothing particularly wrong with not being Jewish, but being Jewish and then renouncing Judaism is sinful.

Thank you.

[AK84]

I don't ever recall Ahmedinenjad ever saying anything against Jews or Judaism per se, Israel yes. So even if it were true, I don't know why he would have anything to be ashamed about. Not a crime being of Jewish extraction is it.

[The Flying Dutchman]

One who is Jewish by birth, but who converts to Islam (or who is raised from infancy in the practice of Islam) is still Jewish, in the eyes of Jews. He is a Jew who does not keep the Law.



That really galls me. I've recently learned from dopers that converting to Christ will nullify an ethnic Jew from being a Jew. Its not fair.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Converting to Christianity involves worshipping a false God. Islam does not.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

To the OP, opposition to Israel -- even hatred of Israel -- does not necessarily equate to racial antisemitism. It's a political conflict, not a racial or religious one.

[UDS]

That really galls me. I've recently learned from dopers that converting to Christ will nullify an ethnic Jew from being a Jew. Its not fair.
Not correct, as far as I know. I mentioned Islam because it was relevant to this thread, but so far as I know the attitude to conversions to Christianity is the same; a Jew who converts to Christianity is a Jew who does not observe the Law, not a former Jew. Same goes for a Jew who converts to any other religion, or who renounces all religious faith and practice.

Of course, there can be gradations of "not observing the Law". Conversion to Christianity may be accompanied by much graver dietary infringements than would flow from converting to Islam, for example. Furthermore - Jewish dopers, please feel free to clarify or correct - there is a view in Judaism that Christianity involves beliefs which are at least marginally polytheistic (the Trinity) and idolatrous (the Incarnation), and polytheism and idolatry are particularly big no-noes under the Law. Islam does not present these problems. So conversion to Christianity may be a more profound rejection of the Law than conversion to Islam. But neither of them involves ceasing to be a Jew. Quite simply, you cannot cease to be a Jew.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Under Israeli law, any Jews who convert to another religion have put themselves outside Judaism and are no longer permitted the Right of Return.

[Eyebrows 0f Doom]

No eating the limb of the living


Wow, that's... oddly specific.

[UDS]

Under Israeli law, any Jews who convert to another religion have put themselves outside Judaism and are no longer permitted the Right of Return.
Interesting.

That seems to produce an odd result. A Jew who converts to some other religion and raises their children in that religion cannot immigrate to Israel under the Law of Return - but the children can, since they are either

- Jewish, if their mother was Jewish, and have never converted (not having been raised in the Jewish faith in the first place), or

- the children of a Jew, if their father was.

I suggest, though, that this has more to do with Israeli law than it does with Jewish identity. I think someone exluded from the Law of Return for having converted would still be seen as Jewish by the religious authorities; he would jsut be a Jew who (a) does not keep the Law and (b) does not benefit from the Law of Return.

I presume that the Law of Return wouldn't distinguish between a Jew who converted to Islam and a Jew who converted to Christianity.

I also wonder whether a Jew who repudiated Jewish religiousl belief and practice but didn't identify with another religious denomination - e.g. became an atheist or a not-easily-classified new age beleiver in the supernatural - would be regarded as having "converted from Judaism" for these purposes. (And, if not, why not?)

[The Great Philosopher]

The Guardian story cited by wmfellows, Ahmadinejad has no Jewish roots (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/oct/05/mahmoud-ahmadinejad-jewish-family), refutes that story point by point.

I'd go with "almost certainly not and never has been Jewish." The word of an expert on Iranian Jews for me trumps a lot of speculation based on one data point.

The "expert on Iranian Jews", David Yeroshalmi, only denies that the name Ahmadinejad's father jettisoned meant "Jewish prayer shawl" or was a name solely used by Jewish families. That doesn't mean it wasn't a common Jewish name, and it doesn't "refute" the original article. You've also got to be careful about some of the other sources in that Guardian article - for instance Ahmadinejad's Iranian biographers, who have met his whole family? They could be independent, but if they're on his side it's not going to be a surprise that they deny he's Jewish.

[Alessan]

I also wonder whether a Jew who repudiated Jewish religiousl belief and practice but didn't identify with another religious denomination - e.g. became an atheist or a not-easily-classified new age beleiver in the supernatural - would be regarded as having "converted from Judaism" for these purposes. (And, if not, why not?)

They most certainly would not. Just because someone has no interest in religion, that doesn't mean they aren't Jewish. A person's beliefs are irrelevant - only actions count. And since Israel was founded by non-observant Jews (atheists, agnostics and believers who aren't interested in ceremonies), it would hardly be right right to turn them away.

Now, someone who actually converts is actively swearing allegiance to another people. If he decides he wants no part in the Jewish People, the Jewish People want no part in him.

[Scuba_Ben]

No eating the limb of the living

Wow, that's... oddly specific.

Yes it is.

In commentary, this Noahide rule is extended to: No cruelty to animals.

[Beware of Doug]

I've decided that almost everybody is a little bit Jewish and a little bit gay, and that acknowledging this is the secret to a happy life.

[No Me Ayudes Compadre]

I've decided that almost everybody is a little bit Jewish and a little bit gay, and that acknowledging this is the secret to a happy life.

Harvey Fierstein must be ecstatic.

[Bryan Ekers]

He's not a little anything.

[DesertDog]

Wow, that's... oddly specific.what ran trough my mind was the punchline, "Shoot, man. You don't eat a pig like that all at once!"

I'm so going to hell.

[sqweels]

He's not a little anything.
He's not even a little dictator. People seem to forget that.

[UDS]

They most certainly would not. Just because someone has no interest in religion, that doesn't mean they aren't Jewish. A person's beliefs are irrelevant - only actions count. And since Israel was founded by non-observant Jews (atheists, agnostics and believers who aren't interested in ceremonies), it would hardly be right right to turn them away.
Pretty much what I expected.

Now, someone who actually converts is actively swearing allegiance to another people. If he decides he wants no part in the Jewish People, the Jewish People want no part in him.
But isn’t there a certain tension between saying “a person's beliefs are irrelevant” and “someone who actually converts is actively swearing allegiance to another people”?

Although Judaism does link religion and national identity very closely, few other religions take the view that adopting the religion involves “swearing allegiance” to any particular people. And if somebody embraces Buddhism or Christianity, for example, they can be presumed to have Buddhist or Christian beliefs, and therefore a Buddhist or Christian understanding of the significance of their conversion. And if they don’t consider themselves to be “swearing allegiance” to the Buddhist people or the Christian people then, quite simply, they aren’t.. It might be that rejecting the Jewish religion involves a repudiation of allegiance to the Jewish people, but if that were so then the convert-to-Atheism and the convert-to-Christianity would be equally stigmatised, which is not what happens.

It seems to me that what is at work here is not the significance for converts of their conversion, but the significance which other Jews attribute to their conversion. And this in turn may be based on a (misplaced, and probably unexamined) assumption that adherence to any religion has the same significance for national identity as adherence to Judaism does.

Both the convert-to-Christianity and the convert-to-atheism are repudiating Jewish religious belief and practice, but Jews take a dimmer view of the repudiation by the convert-to-Christianity. And I can’t help feeling that this may have a good deal to do with the anti-Semitism so often displayed in the past by Christianity (and the historic fact that most Jews who have converted out, have converted to Christianity).

[qazwart]

Okay, straight up, Mahmoud Ahmedinejad is not Jewish and has no Jewish heritage. He never claimed such, and no close relatives claimed such. The Telegraph posted a retraction of their claim a few days after their initial article. Apparently the surname his father changed wasn't a Jewish surname anyway.

There are several things going on about Jewish or not Jewish:

First, there's the claim made by Judaism itself: If you are Jewish, you are still Jewish even if you convert. Almost all religions make such a claim. You can convert to the religion, but you can't leave.
There's the personal aspect: I was Religion "X", and I officially converted to Religion "Y". As far as I am personally concerned, I am now Religion "Y" no matter what Religion "X" says.
There's an ethnic definition which pretty much matches a type of ethnicity of Eastern European Jews. My wife, for example, is of Middle Eastern origin, and to her a bagel is what we would call a pretzel. She also doesn't speak Yiddishisms, and hates Jon Stewart's sense of humor. She is religiously Jewish and by Jewish law is Jewish, but many people wouldn't be considered ethnically Jewish.

Someone could be ethnically Jewish because their dad (but not their mom) was Jewish and grew up in a Jewish household. They may eat bagels, say "oy vey", ask for a schmere of cream cheese on his bagel, but is a member of the Episcopalian Church where he met his wife. He isn't Jewish by religion, nor even by Jewish law, but he probably feels Jewish.

This is the hardest one because it puts being Jewish almost on the level of race, and we would prefer to think of Judaism strictly as a religion. However, ethnicity is defined by a common heritage and outlook. Jews in Eastern Europe were ghettoized and segregated from main stream society that they created their own culture.
Finally, there's the legal aspect of it: In Israel, there is something called the Law of Return that applies to Jews. If you fall within the legal definition of being Jewish according to the Law of Return, you can claim immediate citizenship in Israel. Much the same way an ethnic German can claim immediate citizenship to Germany or an ethnic Russian can claim immediate citizenship to Russia.

The important part is that this is a legal definition and not a religious definition. There are several instances where the legal definition for the Law of Return doesn't match the religious definition whether someone is actually Jewish or not.


We need to clarify which way we are referring to someone being Jewish when we talk about this issue. Otherwise, we end up talking around each other.

And to reemphasize the point, Ahmedinejad is not Jewish by any of those four criteria.