Is the "pursue your dreams" thing a little overblown?

[The Bith Shuffle]

I think that people (especially white people) tend to overemphasize the idea that you should "follow your dreams". A few points.

1. The world does not have a market nearly large enough for all of the people who want to be writers, musicians, visual artists, etc.

There's nothing wrong with writing, singing, or painting for fun, but there just aren't enough buyers out there for most people who want to write, sing, or paint to make even a thousand dollars a year from what they do.

2. Wanting to make more money is a good thing, not a bad thing.

Some people diss business students or lawyers (or engineering students, etc) by saying that they "just want money".

I have a news flash: money really does make the world go 'round. More money means fewer worries, less chance of financial catastrophe, and better quality of life.

Some people are going to throw out the straw man that money isn't the key to happiness. Of course it isn't, but neither is following your dreams. The world is full of wannabes actresses who are really unhappy. Sacrificing financial security so you can try to make it big as an artist very well may not make you happy.

The point is that, all other things being equal, more money is good. We should teach our children and tell our peers that making more money would be good for them.

3. A life spent producing art is not fundamentally good in some way.

Dali was an amazing man - if you doubt me, look at the paintings he produced before he turned eighteen - but there's nothing fundamentally better about the life Dali lived than the life the average lawyer lives. If somebody goes their entire life without acting in a single play or writing a single novel, that's not a bad thing. The middle-class values of making money, taking care of your kids, and making it into the next day securely are good values.

---

Now, some people really should become painters or writers. These are people who are both extraordinarily hard-working and extraordinarily talented (top fifth percent at least in both categories, probably higher). These people will still not make a ton of money, but if they work hard, they can make a decent living. But most people have neither the amazing talent or the extreme willingness to work hard that it takes to make it as an artist. What does that mean? It means that you shouldn't kid yourself by moving to Hollywood and trying to become an actor/actress while working as a waiter.

I realize that this post is a bit over-the-top, but I really am getting tired of the idea that the life-well-lived is the life spent working at Tully's while working on electronic music in your small apartment. There's just more to life than failing as an artist.

[marshmallow]

Edit it down a lot, add more sardonic advice, and this would be a good idea for a SWPL entry.

[The Bith Shuffle]

Edit it down a lot, add more sardonic advice, and this would be a good idea for a SWPL entry.

I understand what you're saying and I'll take it as a compliment, but I mean for this to be taken a little more seriously than SWPL. The problem with SWPL is that it doesn't serve as a good basis for genuine discussion, and that's what I'm looking for. I really want to talk about the merits of the "follow your dreams" idea.

[An Gadaí]

Well, I don't see it as one or the other. Most people I know who play music or do other creative works also do more economically productive work. They balance the two. You could claim that you can't make great art part-time but some of the music my friends have made is up there with anything a full professional does. They are pursuing their dreams but in a way that is sustainable.

[Lakai]

The sentiment in "pursue your dreams" is to get people to pursue a job they like doing.

I don't think it's wrong for society to push people to at least pursue their dreams, with the understanding that if their pursuit fails that they should settle for some sort of cubical position where you have meetings and talk about meaningless data.

[NinetyWt]

2. Wanting to make more money is a good thing, not a bad thing.

I think what is meant is that the pursuit of money shouldn't be the *sole* focus of one's life; as mentioned upthread, all these things you mention in the OP are okay as long as they are in balance with the rest of your life.

[Bosstone]

I think that people (especially white people) tend to overemphasize the idea that you should "follow your dreams". A few points.

1. The world does not have a market nearly large enough for all of the people who want to be writers, musicians, visual artists, etc.

There's nothing wrong with writing, singing, or painting for fun, but there just aren't enough buyers out there for most people who want to write, sing, or paint to make even a thousand dollars a year from what they do. You assume that everyone's dream is to make their living from something creative or artistic. While I grant that's usually the context in which the advice is applied, it doesn't necessarily have to be so. I guarantee you there's a student out there somewhere who's the child of an artist and an actor who just wants to get his Accounting degree and get a job as a CPA.

It also doesn't necessarily have to be job-related. My dream might be to live in New York City or Japan or something instead of doggedly pursuing a career in Arizona where I grew up and went to school, even if it's a career I enjoy.

Granted, if everyone followed their dreams we'd likely still have deficiencies in some very necessary sectors of society, but the impact wouldn't nearly be as severe as the OP assumes.

[even sven]

I don't know. This sounds suspiciously like sour grapes from someone who didn't pursue their dreams, and now needs to cloak their regret in some kind of moral superiority.

First off, not everyone dreams of being an artist. In fact, I'd imagine that people who dream of being rich VASTLY outnumber people who dream of being artists. They don't call owning a home, having a nice family and a steady job "the American dream" for no reason. Are you happy working in a cubicle and reaping the material rewards? More power to you!

Secondly, pursuing your dreams is not a desitnation, but a process. Our dreams change and evolve in our lives. You don't necessarily have to pick one pie-in-the-sky ideal when you are young and spend the rest of your life on it. You just have to listen to yourself every day- are you doing what you want to be doing with your life? If not, why not?

Because the trick here is that we live in a rich and free country. So much of the time, the thing that keeps us from the life we want to live is not material circumstances- it is our own fear. It is our own unwillingness to take risks. And our own inability to see the wealth of opportunities before us. We are blessed because it really doesn't take much to change our lives. Yet so many of us keep doing things we hate because we don't have the guts to.

I agree that we ought to tone things down a bit. It's quite a shock to learn that the "you can do anything if you put your mind to it" we learn from Disney cartoons is not quite true in the real world. But do we all have a right- maybe even an obligation- to search out fulfillment? Hell yeah.

[The Bith Shuffle]

I don't know. This sounds suspiciously like sour grapes from someone who didn't pursue their dreams, and now needs to cloak their regret in some kind of moral superiority.


I am twenty. I have all of the time in the world to have some sort of personal identity crisis and become a travel writer.

[Broomstick]

Well, when I was in my 20's I pursued an artistic career. What differs me from many is that at a certain point I realize that it wasn't working out and got a desk job which afford me a comfortable lifestyle AND the ability to remain creative on the side.

I could, of course, have another go at the art thing at any point I choose.

I pursued my dream, but I also had a fall back for if it wasn't a roaring success. That's really what needs to be impressed upon people. Take your chances, but know when to move on if necessary.

[Jerseyman]

'Pursuing your dreams' is the most vicious of lies because it assumes that your dreams are to be a cog in the corporate machine entirely dependent on that machine to survive. You are only allowed to pursue your dreams providing they are authorised dreams. How about your dream of a home and children of your own beholden to nobody? How about the dream of belonging to somebody who loves you and accepts your love in that home? How about the dream of simply wearing anything you like, being friends and making love to anyone you like and respecting each other and being friends for it? No-no - wrong dreams.

[JRDelirious]

Neither does the market for lawyers, engineers or business graduates ensure high earnings for those who go into those fields -- again, for those who are great at it and willing to work hard, should be there; others, not so much.

The OP is arguing against a very constricted definition of what it means to "pursue your dreams"

The idea behind "pursuing your dream" should not refer just to artistic or non-mainstream interests, though it's too often and unfairly limited so.
Pursuing the dream involves a notion that one should, to the extent that is it practically possible, at least give it a try at seeing if one has the right aptitude and the right attitude to get where you want.

"Pursuing your dream" can mean going for a Ph D in theoretical mathematics after college instead of going straight to a Wall St. firm to design financial derivatives; it can mean opening a GP/Family practice in a small town rather than a plastic surgery practice in Vegas; it can mean taking on the challenge of opening a new location of your hotel chain in a site that the crowds have not yet discovered; it can mean wanting to make your big bundle early enough that you can be there to be a part of your child growing up w/o sacrificing her to your career. And countless others. And of course it doesn't have to be you rprimary occupation, you may be able to "pursue your dream" in your off-time. Humans can walk and chew gum at the same time.

Like even sven says, "you can be anything if you really want it" is a myth. But you can't be it if you don't even try -- we don't have a right to happiness, just to the pursuit of happiness. We fail? Learning experience, move on to something we CAN achieve. THAT is where some people have the problems, in not knowing what to do, what to fall back upon if the ideal is not working out.



Additionally, the idea that only a "creative" life is worthy? Who said that? Or rather, who said that only an artistic life is "creative".

But Tim Berners-Lee's work is creative. Captain Sulley of USAirways is creative. The team that comes up with a plan to reduce expenses by 10% without laying off more staff, are creative. They see situations, they come up with plans of action to deal with the situation using their skills and imaginations.

Yes, there is more to a "good life" than failing as an artist... just like there's also more to a secure life life than being a mediocre middle manager. If you can make $90K being bored or you can make $65K having fun, it's your choice to make and I'm not going to give you a hard time.

Making money IS not just good, but a GREAT thing to seek -- but going into a rigorous professional career for the sole purpose of high earnings potential (or just secure earnings), with no idea of what in the world will you DO once you get there, is an iffy investment. It does NOT make you an inferior person, though. Just someone who's taking a different chance than the other fellow.

[msmith537]

'Pursuing your dreams' is the most vicious of lies because it assumes that your dreams are to be a cog in the corporate machine entirely dependent on that machine to survive. You are only allowed to pursue your dreams providing they are authorised dreams. How about your dream of a home and children of your own beholden to nobody? How about the dream of belonging to somebody who loves you and accepts your love in that home? How about the dream of simply wearing anything you like, being friends and making love to anyone you like and respecting each other and being friends for it? No-no - wrong dreams.

"I never had an answer. I guess that's why I'm working at Initech."

Some of you sound like you have a pretty bizarre view of the world. It is up to each person to decide what their "dream" is and pursue it. Some people want to make millions as a lawyer or investment banker. Some people want to be an actor or an artist. Some people want to have a meaningful profession as an architect or engineer or web designer or whatever. Others just want focus on raising a family. And some just want to do two chicks at the same time.

The alternative is a pretty meaningless and joyless life toiling away at whatever job you can find (which you will probably hate) and floating through life with no passion or direction other than bitching about the world on the Internet. Which, sadly, is what a lot of people do.

I would agree with the OP that one should try to be realistic in their dreams and try to apply them to a career they find interesting. People who are serious about becomming actors, musicians or arts begin at a very early age and practice a shitload. People who are fuckups dabble in these things as hobbies and delude themselves that it will be their career as they avoid finding a real job.

[Manda JO]

I would say "It's possible to build a life you want to live", which is not quite as pithy, but more reasonable. We all have different things that make us happy: we all need different amounts of challenge, of downtime, of change, of creative expression, of security, of emotional interplay, of material comfort. Every lifestyle involves trade-offs between these things. The trick is to build a life where the trade-offs you accept are the ones you want and that leave you with your needs fulfilled.

Too often, people feel like there is only one model of life open to them and that model doesn't fit their needs--it's the expectation they've inherited from their parents or peer group or whatever and they can't see that there is any other way to be. These are the ones that need to be told to "follow their dream", because if they don't learn to see the alternatives, they could be angry and resentful their whole life.

On the other hand, you need to find a life that meets all your needs, not a life that fits one need really well. Some people don't need anything but a creative outlet. They don't mind living on the knife-edge of poverty if it gets them that outlet. If so, that's cool. But a frustrated artist who is paralyzed by their lack of security, or who is constantly missing creature comforts like clean clothes and adequate nutrition is no better off than the cubicle zombie who has the comforts but lacks the outlet. Both those people need to find a life that gives them all of what they need--which may involve hobbies and part-time work--again, trade-offs.

I guess my advice would be to Know Thyself, and build a life that suits who you are, not a life that suits what people expect of you, nor one that suits a romanticized version of yourself.

[Qadgop the Mercotan]

An artist friend of mine pursued his dream, doing art. It turned into a real grind for him. He was able to make an okay living, but started disliking what he used to love. Deadlines, rush orders, getting stiffed by suppliers, customers who wanted their sculptures changed at the last minute, etc. etc.

He's still searching for a way to bring back his love for his art.

Me, I find my work intellectually fascinating, and challenging. But it's not my dream. My work enables me to take nice vacations where my wife and I pursue our dreams.

YMMV

[toadspittle]

What Manda Jo said. I am a creative person, and I have pursued my dreams--luckily, with some success. But I regularly encounter people whose dreams are NOT artistic in nature--to save the environment, to teach, to give birth to and raise children, to go surfing as often as possible--and they are pursuing their own types of dreams quite well.

I think the truth of that phrase is in the emphasis: "PURSUE your dreams" is vague; "pursue YOUR dreams" is much more apt. Your dream is probably not my dream, nor is it Paris Hilton's dream. (I hope.)

[msmith537]

An artist friend of mine pursued his dream, doing art. It turned into a real grind for him. He was able to make an okay living, but started disliking what he used to love. Deadlines, rush orders, getting stiffed by suppliers, customers who wanted their sculptures changed at the last minute, etc. etc.

He's still searching for a way to bring back his love for his art.

Me, I find my work intellectually fascinating, and challenging. But it's not my dream. My work enables me to take nice vacations where my wife and I pursue our dreams.

YMMV



There is a saying that the best way to ruin a perfectly good hobby is to make it your job.

[panache45]

When people say "pursue your dreams," what they should be saying is "pursue your dreams." Too many people fall into the trap of pursuing other people's dreams, and never even bother to find out what their own are. You are under no obligation to pursue your parents' dreams, nor those of your friends or your school's guidance counselor.

If you want to write the Great American Novel or paint a new Sistine Chapel ceiling, then follow that dream, so long as you're realistic about your chance of success. And be prepared to work your ass off to get there, and also work your ass off to support yourself doing whatever other work you can do.

Both of my parents were artists. They knew that's what they wanted to be, from a very early age, and they both had parents who taught them that they could be whatever they wanted to be, but any success would require a lot of work. They both worked full-time at jobs that utilized their talent (at a salary of $15/week during the Depression), and they created art evenings and weekends. Little by little they got their work in shows and their reputations grew. By the time they reached middle age they no longer had to work at anything but their art. They had many good years doing exactly what they always wanted to do, while their siblings retired into oblivion.

And wanting to be any kind of artist is no different than anything else. If your "dream" is to be a bartender, then that's what you should be doing. But sitting at home dreaming, and not doing the work, won't get you there. A very wise woman once told me, "The only thing sadder than someone who can't dream is someone who can only dream."

[Justin_Bailey]

I think that people (especially white people) tend to overemphasize the idea that you should "follow your dreams".

I agree with you completely. Living six hours from New York City, I have met dozens of people over the years (most in their 20s) who's dream it is to move to the Big Apple. They have no idea what they want to do once they get down there, they just want to be there.

Most never go because the money disparity is too big, so they never have enough to make the "1st month's rent" leap. But they talk about their "plans" to move to NYC all the damn time. It's irritating.

Too many people have combined the idea of "their dreams" with the belief that they must be exciting, and not necessarilly something that makes you happy.

Then they try to tell me that I'm the one with the problem because my dream is a quiet house in the burbs with my family and a nice little nest egg (still working on that last part).

[The Bith Shuffle]

I agree with you completely. Living six hours from New York City, I have met dozens of people over the years (most in their 20s) who's dream it is to move to the Big Apple. They have no idea what they want to do once they get down there, they just want to be there.

Most never go because the money disparity is too big, so they never have enough to make the "1st month's rent" leap. But they talk about their "plans" to move to NYC all the damn time. It's irritating.

Too many people have combined the idea of "their dreams" with the belief that they must be exciting, and not necessarilly something that makes you happy.

Then they try to tell me that I'm the one with the problem because my dream is a quiet house in the burbs with my family and a nice little nest egg (still working on that last part).

A girl that I work worth tells me that once she graduates she wants to go to New York for a year or so and just "hang out". She's a nice enough person but she obviously doesn't plan ahead or think critically about her life decisions.

[even sven]

A girl that I work worth tells me that once she graduates she wants to go to New York for a year or so and just "hang out". She's a nice enough person but she obviously doesn't plan ahead or think critically about her life decisions.

This is what I'm saying. You seem like a pretty earnest person. That's cool. The world is built on the hard work of earnest people.

But why do you have to shit on other people's choices? Not everyone wants the safe and stable past. Some of us are willing to risk a little uncertainty, and may indeed thrive on that. And risk-takers make the world go 'round, too.

Why would you say that wanting to spend a year after graduation in New York City indicates an inability to plan ahead or think critically?

New York City is a hell of a place, and she will no doubt meet lots of interesting people and have lots of interesting experiences that she will remember for the rest of her life and that will contribute to her development as a person. I have a good friend who did exactly that. It was not an easy time for her- rent was high and work is hard to find. But lord did she have adventures! And in the meantime she figured out what her next step would be. She just graduated from nursing school and is ready for the next stage of her life. But she wouldn't trade those crazy, tough, uncertain and exciting times in the Big City for anything- especially not a just an extra year in the rat race.

In practical terms, if you dream of living in New York City, right after graduation is maybe the best time to do it. You really aren't going to do any irreparable harm to your career by taking a year off at the beginning. But as you get older it will become harder and harder to make big moves like that, and once you have a family it may well be impossible. If you want to travel or work in strange places, do it while you are young! Your friend likely will have some hard times. But there are worse things than being a little broke while you are young. As long as she doesn't rack up credit card debt or something, it's fine.

Okay, so it's not for you. But it might just be the best possible thing for her.

My own journey to my dreams has been a long interesting one that hopefully holds plenty more wonderful surprises. In high school, I dreamed of being a filmmaker. I went to University and studied film production, and I did quite well academically. After graduation I got a crash course in reality and quickly became extremely broke and depressed. I spent some time with my head just above water. But I managed to get some travelling in, and I realized that travel alone wasn't going to fulfill me- I wanted to work abroad. I joined the Peace Corps and spent two years teaching in an African village (where I also managed to teach some video production) and I loved every minute of it. Best two years of my life so far. Then, I extended my service and now I am teaching in China. China has had it's own set of challenges (though I'm learning tons every day- and doing good work), and I've realized that I would like to continue working in Africa. To make that a reality, I am in the process of getting applying to graduate schools in International Development. I've got plenty of friends in the field, and I am relatively sure that the path I am on now will lead me to where I want to be as I enter my 30s. Meanwhile, it's been an interesting decade. I learned three languages, visited a couple dozen countries, worked on three continents, and made great life-long friends. I'm thrilled with how it's turned out and proud of myself.

It's not a well-planned life. Or a very efficient one. Nor has it been particularly easy. I could certainly be making more money (though I'm pretty sure after grad school I'll be in a good position.) But it's a more amazing life than I ever thought I'd have growing up in my suburb. And I hope these crazy twists and turns continue to delight and surprise me. My life is as much discovered as it is planned, and I like it like that.

I'm pretty sure you aren't in to that kind of risk and instability. But please, understand that we don't all share want what you want. And in any case, even the best laid plans can go wrong. The well-matched couple with engineering and accounting degrees can end up laid off, too. You can't eliminate risk. You just have to decide how much you are will to take.

[Try2B Comprehensive]

I've pursued all kinds of things in my life so far. Once I got around to focusing on a decent job, things overall are much improved. Dandy even. But then I actually like my work.

In retrospect I'd say in my pre-career days (though I always had some kind of job) I didn't much care for money and therefore never made the kind of calculations in the op. Then one day that changed, and I acted differently. I don't think the change was precipitated by a debate or some education however. It's more like it was the next thing after I'd finished what I was doing.

[The Bith Shuffle]

This is what I'm saying. You seem like a pretty earnest person. That's cool. The world is built on the hard work of earnest people.

But why do you have to shit on other people's choices? Not everyone wants the safe and stable past. Some of us are willing to risk a little uncertainty, and may indeed thrive on that. And risk-takers make the world go 'round, too.

Why would you say that wanting to spend a year after graduation in New York City indicates an inability to plan ahead or think critically?

New York City is a hell of a place, and she will no doubt meet lots of interesting people and have lots of interesting experiences that she will remember for the rest of her life and that will contribute to her development as a person. I have a good friend who did exactly that. It was not an easy time for her- rent was high and work is hard to find. But lord did she have adventures! And in the meantime she figured out what her next step would be. She just graduated from nursing school and is ready for the next stage of her life. But she wouldn't trade those crazy, tough, uncertain and exciting times in the Big City for anything- especially not a just an extra year in the rat race.

In practical terms, if you dream of living in New York City, right after graduation is maybe the best time to do it. You really aren't going to do any irreparable harm to your career by taking a year off at the beginning. But as you get older it will become harder and harder to make big moves like that, and once you have a family it may well be impossible. If you want to travel or work in strange places, do it while you are young! Your friend likely will have some hard times. But there are worse things than being a little broke while you are young. As long as she doesn't rack up credit card debt or something, it's fine.

Okay, so it's not for you. But it might just be the best possible thing for her.

My own journey to my dreams has been a long interesting one that hopefully holds plenty more wonderful surprises. In high school, I dreamed of being a filmmaker. I went to University and studied film production, and I did quite well academically. After graduation I got a crash course in reality and quickly became extremely broke and depressed. I spent some time with my head just above water. But I managed to get some travelling in, and I realized that travel alone wasn't going to fulfill me- I wanted to work abroad. I joined the Peace Corps and spent two years teaching in an African village (where I also managed to teach some video production) and I loved every minute of it. Best two years of my life so far. Then, I extended my service and now I am teaching in China. China has had it's own set of challenges (though I'm learning tons every day- and doing good work), and I've realized that I would like to continue working in Africa. To make that a reality, I am in the process of getting applying to graduate schools in International Development. I've got plenty of friends in the field, and I am relatively sure that the path I am on now will lead me to where I want to be as I enter my 30s. Meanwhile, it's been an interesting decade. I learned three languages, visited a couple dozen countries, worked on three continents, and made great life-long friends. I'm thrilled with how it's turned out and proud of myself.

It's not a well-planned life. Or a very efficient one. Nor has it been particularly easy. I could certainly be making more money (though I'm pretty sure after grad school I'll be in a good position.) But it's a more amazing life than I ever thought I'd have growing up in my suburb. And I hope these crazy twists and turns continue to delight and surprise me. My life is as much discovered as it is planned, and I like it like that.

I'm pretty sure you aren't in to that kind of risk and instability. But please, understand that we don't all share want what you want. And in any case, even the best laid plans can go wrong. The well-matched couple with engineering and accounting degrees can end up laid off, too. You can't eliminate risk. You just have to decide how much you are will to take.

Like many, you misuse the notion of a risk to make flighty behavior seem adventurous. There are risks and then there are just stupid choices. A legitimate risk is one where the likelihood and severity of failure is made up for by the likelihood and magnitude of success.

Maybe you don't know lots of people in their late teens and early twenties who kid themselves that they're on their way to adventurous careers. I've met dozens of people who talk as though they're honestly going to be graphic designers or theater directors yet don't seem to have a clue about the sort of effort needed to do that. They get average grades, waste lots of time, and dream about making cult films.

Forgive me for shitting on their dreams. They were never going to come to fruition anyway. The reason that your dreams are going to come to fruition is because unlike many people I know (read: dreamers), you have taken actions that bring success. You graduated from college. You got into and participated in the Peace Corps. I imagine that you had to do at least a little fenangling to get your present job in China.

People who want to succeed in their dream fields need to understand that they need to work harder than those who go into more profitable fields. Some people, like you, understand this. Others don't. Don't suggest that I'm Mr. Dependable-and-Boring because I recognize this.

[msmith537]

I agree with you completely. Living six hours from New York City, I have met dozens of people over the years (most in their 20s) who's dream it is to move to the Big Apple. They have no idea what they want to do once they get down there, they just want to be there.


You say that like 6 hours is that close. By my calculations, that places you closer to Pittsburg PA, Richmond VA, Montreal or Bangor ME depending on which direction you go.

More to the point, their "dream" is largely mental masterbation and mostly fantasy derived from sitcoms and films set in the Big Apple. Are they in a profession that will pay them enough to live in the city and enjoy what it has to offer? Do they know anyone there? Do they want to spend $2000 a month living in a one room studio? Probably not. They just have some vague notion of moving there someday to live some hipster lifestyle.

People dream and set goals about a lot of things. Few actually take steps to make them happen.



In practical terms, if you dream of living in New York City, right after graduation is maybe the best time to do it. You really aren't going to do any irreparable harm to your career by taking a year off at the beginning. But as you get older it will become harder and harder to make big moves like that, and once you have a family it may well be impossible. If you want to travel or work in strange places, do it while you are young! Your friend likely will have some hard times. But there are worse things than being a little broke while you are young. As long as she doesn't rack up credit card debt or something, it's fine.


You know, there are some of us who do actually live and work in NYC because that's just where we live and work.



A girl that I work worth tells me that once she graduates she wants to go to New York for a year or so and just "hang out".


I did that. Right after I got laid off from my job.

[panache45]

A girl that I work worth tells me that once she graduates she wants to go to New York for a year or so and just "hang out". She's a nice enough person but she obviously doesn't plan ahead or think critically about her life decisions.

I went to NYC right after college, with $17 in my pocket, no resume, and no idea what I'd do when I got there. I wound up living there for 25 years, and became the Creative Director and Partner of an ad agency. And yes, I had to work my ass off.

[Justin_Bailey]

You say that like 6 hours is that close. By my calculations, that places you closer to Pittsburg PA, Richmond VA, Montreal or Bangor ME depending on which direction you go.

I'm not sure where you think I live (western New York by the way), but NYC is considerably closer than all of those other cities. It also has an allure that Bangor, ME (Stephen King notwithstanding) that the others don't.

More to the point, their "dream" is largely mental masterbation and mostly fantasy derived from sitcoms and films set in the Big Apple. Are they in a profession that will pay them enough to live in the city and enjoy what it has to offer? Do they know anyone there? Do they want to spend $2000 a month living in a one room studio? Probably not. They just have some vague notion of moving there someday to live some hipster lifestyle.

That's exactly my point. To some people, their dream is just some vague notion that it would be great to recreate Sex and the City, Seinfeld, Friends or some other sitcom by living in NYC. The reality is, almost all of these people are underemployed in the cheap locales they currently live in, so they have no money with which to follow their "dream" and just come off like loons.

I'm all for working hard to follow your dream, but some people need to learn the difference between their dream of what they want and the pipe dream that this idea most likely is.

[SecondJudith]

It sounds like what The Bith Shuffle and Justin_Bailey have problems with isn't the people who pursue their dreams, it's the people who don't pursue them, aka the ones who don't work at it. I don't really think that's a flaw with the idea of pursuing a dream, but a flaw with lazy people.

[athelas]

Thinking back to the types who most loudly advertise that they're "following their dream," it often seems to be an attempt to obtain quick social status at the expense of material well-being. As such, a morally neutral transaction, if you can pull it off.

[Qadgop the Mercotan]

So keep right to the end
You'll find your goal my friend
You won't fail
Find your grail
Find your grail
Find your grail
;)

[mswas]

Some people dream of being scientists, some people dream of being hedge fund traders.

Your post is flawed in that it assumes that dreams must be arts related.

There certainly are enough jobs for people to pursue their dreams. And even if you can't do precisely what you want to do, IE, be a successful novelist, you can still do something that is more creative.

[MrDibble]

Man, the OP's paean to Money was great. Haven't seen such a bravura performance since Gordon Gekko. Pity I disagree with every bolded point.

[msmith537]

I'm not sure where you think I live (western New York by the way), but NYC is considerably closer than all of those other cities. It also has an allure that Bangor, ME (Stephen King notwithstanding) that the others don't.

Well now I think you live somewhere near Buffalo or Rochester.:D (I just picked a couple of cities in various directions about a 6 hour drive away according to Google Maps.)

But I think we are in agreement. If you have a desire to do something, you should set about doing it. Don't just talk about it.

You also need to find out if the reality of your dream is the same as your fantasy. Some people say they want a job where they can travel the world. Well I've had jobs like that. It can be fun and interesting, but it can also be very lonely and isolating living out of a suitcase making "single serving friends" all over the place. Same thing with living in NYC. Unless you are making money, it's pretty hard to live a hipster SoHo lifestyle.

But I'm generally about trying stuff, seeing how you like it and then adjusting your goals accordingly.

[mswas]

Man, the OP's paean to Money was great. Haven't seen such a bravura performance since Gordon Gekko. Pity I disagree with every bolded point.

Not to mention that there are multiple millions worth of paying jobs in the United States of America for artists.

Evil Consultant (I put this in because I am actually being paid for this on a current contract)
Illustrator: Comics, Magazines, Advertisements
Graphic Design: Print and Electronic Media
Musicians: Piano Bars, DJs, Sessions Musicians, Writing Jingles, TV and Film Soundtracks
Film Production: Produce, Direct, Art Direction, Costume Design, Set Design
Photographer: Landscape, Fashion, Journalism
Writer: Marketing, Fiction, Comics, Short Stories, Video Games
3D Modeler: Advertising, Film, Video Games, Animation
Sculptor: Film, TV, Advertising, Public Art
Interior Decoration: Window Displays, Home Decor, Model Homes, Models for Advertisements
Painting: Murals, Promotional Materials, Galleries, Event Decor
Lighting Designers: Theater, Film, Disco/Rave
Fashion Design: Haute Couture, Runway, Custom Clothes, Bespoke Tailoring
Architect: New homes, Large buildings, Remodeling
Cooking: Too many cuisines to mention

For anything I've left out, I hope I made my point. Just as with any industry arts/entertainment has a limited number of slots for people to make millions, but the idea that these pursuits are unattainable is fucking silly. Not everyone dreams of being an artist, but if you do dream of being an artist, it's not unattainable by any stretch of the imagination.

I agree with the central point that we must do something to slice off a survivable piece of the pie, even if it's not following our dreams, but dreams are not limited to the arts, and there are multi-millions of jobs in the arts from high paid actors and rock stars to local spot contract work.

[mswas]

You also need to find out if the reality of your dream is the same as your fantasy. Some people say they want a job where they can travel the world. Well I've had jobs like that. It can be fun and interesting, but it can also be very lonely and isolating living out of a suitcase making "single serving friends" all over the place. Same thing with living in NYC. Unless you are making money, it's pretty hard to live a hipster SoHo lifestyle.

But you can live a hipster Bushwick lifestyle on the cheap really easily.

[Redwing]

I think that few enough people pursue their dreams to any serious degree. After all, it isn't the dream that matters, but the pursuit. Going after something with determination is what makes the world move, whether it's even sven's world travel and teaching, or msmith537's corporate climbing.

You (the OP) seem to have a dream in mind, a dream of financial stability and success. This is a fine thing to have as a dream. It is not, however, the only fine thing to have as a dream. Money is not a bad thing, true, but it is not a good thing either, it is just a thing. Creative work is exactly the same, really, neither good nor bad in itself.

What is good is the work, the changes on yourself (generic) and the world that occur as you pursue your dream. If you want to be the next Buffett and pursue that single mindedly you are as likely to close in on Jimmy as you are Warren.

[steronz]

Enough people here have pointed out that not all "dreamers" end up being artists, and it's something I can't agree with enough. In fact, I don't think artists are even the biggest problem... for the most part, the situation is self correcting, and relatively quickly. I have no problem with guys in garage bands who fail to make it big, because they never set themselves up for success, and they've probably always had a plan B.

Granted, there are a fair number of people who graduate from college with photography, english, and music degrees who spend a few years working at Starbucks before figuring out that maybe they should have learned a marketable skill and left the photography/writing/music to "hobby" status.

But I don't think the problem there is the dreaming part, the problem is that high school students are not just told to follow their dreams, they're also told that college is the (required) path to a rewarding successful career, and lo and behold, colleges are more than willing to take their money in exchange for a "dream career." It couldn't be more simple! Dream + college = success!

This holds true for history, journalism, marketing, literature, and/or any number of degrees where the job market isn't large enough to hold all the dreamers.

You don't see people who dream of being the next Chip Foose working at a call center while holding a degree in Automotive Modification and Design, hoping some day to make it big as they tinker in their garage. Or a guy working at the Gap with a degree in Golf Playing, pissed off that Stanford convinced him that he'd be on the Master's Tour in 5 years. There is no college path for those folks, so they learn a skill and either make it or they don't, but they don't get that sense of entitlement, that a certain career path is as simple as a dream and a degree.

That's my theory, at least.

[mswas]

steronz I agree with what you said but with a caveat. All of those industries have plenty of room to support those careers but there are two mitigating factors.

1) People who are successful in a career who do not appreciate that career keeping that job away from someone who desires it more than anything. IE Hack writers keeping it from aspirational ones.
2) Unrealistic expectations. You can get into marketing, photography, etc... very easily if you think locally. I know people who get paid for photography gigs or who upload thousands of photos to stock photo galleries and make a few bucks a month off of that.

I don't think that it's fair to say you are unentitled to work in the field of your dreams, not at all, you can get there and there are more missed opportunities than most people realize, what you are unentitled to is to become rich and famous from working in that career.

If you're a good illustrator there are plenty of ways to get your work published. You have to be willing to work for free and prove that you can come in on a deadline, and have a portfolio to show, but eventually you can get there. I know lots of professional illustrators.

[steronz]

True, true... and, in fact, I suppose for every person I know who had to get a job completely unrelated to their degree just to make ends meet, I know someone who did end up getting a job in their field, albeit it was a hard earned, low paying job.

In any event, I'm going to tell my kids they can do whatever they want as long as they have a convincing survival plan short of "Go to college, ???, profit!"

[mswas]

I think people need to realize that internships and pro bono work are often MORE important than college experience.

[Jettboy]

There is so much bullshit in the OP that I just don't have the time, energy or inclination to try and address even a small portion of it other than to say that not everyone dreams of being a creative type, and the blind pursuit of money leads to a lot of lonely old people who look back at their lives and wonder where it all went.

When the OP revealed her/his age, he/she said more with the number "20" than the entire original post.

...I really am getting tired of the idea that the life-well-lived is the life spent working at Tully's while working on electronic music in your small apartment.

If the person enjoys working at Tully's while working on electronic music in his small apartment, and feels fulfilled by it, who are you and I to question how well-lived his life is? There's plenty of life for anyone and everyone to find whatever it is that makes them happy and to pursue it.

[mswas]

Jettboy What Bith is trying to do is validate his/her own decisions by invalidating the decisions of others. It's pretty simple.

Is working on electronic music in a small apartment and working at Tully's less significant or rewarding than working for Warner Brothers records and working on electronic music in a multi-million dollar studio? What validates it here? Is it the money? The access to things that required a lot of money to purchase? What validates the lifestyle here?

Likely Bith has a crush on this girl and she is an artsy type who isn't in to him because he's not an artsy type.

Bith, if you want to tell that girl anything about her choices here's a piece of advice of someone who has spent much time just, 'hanging out', in New York. Get to work, working is the best way to meet people. I am not saying work in terms of working at a crappy job, but take an internship somewhere or get involved with some kind of arts community and devote some hours. That's the way, 'in', in New York. It's much more fun and rewarding in New York to get to work than it is to 'just hang out'.

[Maeglin]

Like many, you misuse the notion of a risk to make flighty behavior seem adventurous. There are risks and then there are just stupid choices. A legitimate risk is one where the likelihood and severity of failure is made up for by the likelihood and magnitude of success.

That sounds like a reasonable platitude, but I am going to go out on a limb here and suggest that with your limited life experience, you do not even have a good way of evaluating what the underlying probabilities and magnitudes of these choices even are.


Maybe you don't know lots of people in their late teens and early twenties who kid themselves that they're on their way to adventurous careers. I've met dozens of people who talk as though they're honestly going to be graphic designers or theater directors yet don't seem to have a clue about the sort of effort needed to do that. They get average grades, waste lots of time, and dream about making cult films.

And perhaps they will fail, just like many who aspire to be lawyers, office drones, and other more market-friendly activities fail.


Forgive me for shitting on their dreams.

No, you are not forgiven. Sorry.

People who want to succeed in their dream fields need to understand that they need to work harder than those who go into more profitable fields. Some people, like you, understand this. Others don't. Don't suggest that I'm Mr. Dependable-and-Boring because I recognize this.

This is completely illogical. These more "profitable" fields are in fact highly competitive and there exists a great deal of concentration at the top of the chain. If you want to be an attorney who makes at least decent money by NYC standards, you have to either absolutely love what you do or possess a remarkable ability to absorb punishment. Typically both. This is true in any of the "profitable" sectors. The ranks of doctors, attorneys, investment bankers, and mid level corporate functionaries are full of miserable people who hate their lives.

You have neither the perspective nor the logical foundation to pass judgment so blithely on the risks and dreams of others.

[mswas]

Maybe you don't know lots of people in their late teens and early twenties who kid themselves that they're on their way to adventurous careers. I've met dozens of people who talk as though they're honestly going to be graphic designers or theater directors yet don't seem to have a clue about the sort of effort needed to do that. They get average grades, waste lots of time, and dream about making cult films.

And perhaps they will fail, just like many who aspire to be lawyers, office drones, and other more market-friendly activities fail.

Yes, he does seem to assume that it was different when we were kids. I remember making student films in your Dad's office!

Bith Listen up, you're getting grade A advice from a professional risk analyst who is one of the people I'd use as my positive example of someone living the dream who went there by a circuitous route. ;)

[BMax]

It's better to have a dream than not to have one.
It's better to take a step or two towards that dream and fall short of it than to just dream.
It's better still to have a dream, to make that dream into a plan, to work on that plan and live your dream.

For years I dreamed of going to Bali, seeing Hindu temples, climbing volcanoes, snorkeling and surfing in the Indian Ocean. I finally did that last year, having saved money for a long time while working a mind-numbing, soul-crushing job in a call center. In other words, after I worked hard at it. While I was there I came up with an idea for a business and now I'm saving money and making contacts to start that.

I also dreamed of retiring in the tropics, but had no idea how to acheive that. Since I've been lucky enough to be in a mortgage for 12 years and I'm now working on a business there, I think I am on the way to living that dream.

For a long time it was just an idle dream, but I've worked at it. There have been setbacks and difficulties, but overall I've made progress towards it. If it never pans out, at least I can say that I got off my ass and made some progress toward living my dream.

[suranyi]

I kind of don't understand the point of the OP. If you don't have goals, and you aren't striving to achieve them, then what's the point of living?

[mswas]

BMax Agreed. I'd also say that it's better to have a dream and fail at its attainment than to not try to achieve it at all.

suranyi has won the thread.

[Voyager]

I understand what you're saying and I'll take it as a compliment, but I mean for this to be taken a little more seriously than SWPL. The problem with SWPL is that it doesn't serve as a good basis for genuine discussion, and that's what I'm looking for. I really want to talk about the merits of the "follow your dreams" idea.

You might not realize it, but following your dreams can take you away from the arts. My daughter was a successful actress at 11, starred in an NYU student film that won several awards, and made some films shown at festivals. Her dream, however, was to do research in economics and become a professor, and she is well on her way. Her husband's dream was to do space law - with a lot of effort he made it into law school is now busy establishing connections. I've had a very happy 30 year career in computer science and engineering, and before that I got to do a dissertation on a topic I was fanatical about.
I suspect that someone barely making it acting, but who is rapturous to the point of orgasm on stage, is a lot happier than a money making actor who hates every minute.

[The Bith Shuffle]

While people often have a variety of different goals, they collectively hold and are encouraged to hold dreams that are not even remotely representative of the real-world job market.

People dream mostly of these:

- Any kind of artist: actor, musician, painter, writer...
- Doctor
- Lawyer

These are the big dream targets. The number of people who believe that they want to be doctors is a lot lower than the number of people who will end up being doctors - not slightly lower, a lot lower. Many of these dreamers do not have a lot of knowledge of what being a doctor is like on a day-to-day basis, what it takes to get through medical school and residency, or what it takes to even get into medical school.

The same, to a lesser extent, could be said of lawyers. While it easier (only easier, not easy!) to get into and through law school, law is nevertheless a difficult and competitive field. Many people think that they want to be lawyers because they don't have any other ideas of how to make a living.

The sort of dream that I criticized in my OP was the artist dream. I criticized this sort of dream because it is where there is, in my opinion, the greatest discontinuity between the land of dreamers and the land of livers.

Many of you have shown an obscure aggressiveness towards me, suggesting that I have an unrequited crush on my New York-bound coworker (I do, but let's talk about that in MPSIMS) or that I just want to shit on the dreams of others.

I very much wish that the discontinuity between the number of people who dream of being doctors and the number of people who actually become doctors were smaller, just like I wish that the number of people who could become successful writers was closer to the number of people who wish they could. There are two ways to approach this: increase job availability in those fields or decrease the number of dreamers. I chose to advocate the latter.

Many people go through their early years dreaming of artist/lawyer/doctor because of inevitable youthful ambition. Some hearts have to be broken in their early-to-mid twenties - that's just how things are. Nevertheless, I think the following things could help more closely align what young people dream of and what they actually achieve:

- Increased awareness of jobs that don't have much notoriety.
- Increased awareness of the difficulties posed by certain professions (I met a woman at North Seattle Community College who said she wanted to be a neurosurgeon because they make tons of money. I wanted to lecture her on the sort of life a neurosurgeon actually lives.)
- Increased awareness of methods for keeping decent finances while working on your art on the side, for fun.

The third point deserves special attention. I do not begrudge the person who works at Tully's and works on electronic music at home. However, I think that many people get holed up in the "struggling artist" life stage because they are under the illusion that, within a relatively short period of time, they'll be able to get a job doing what they love. My closest friend works at a book store and works on his writing at home. He has told me that he hates his job. He has also told me that all through college he had dreams of becoming an artist. Any member of this board who met him would agree that he is employed below his intelligence. I think that, if he had been more cognizant of barriers facing artists in becoming successful, he might have been able to land a better job and still have time to work on his writing when he's not working.

So it's not bad to work some unglamorous job and work on your art during your free time. I just think it's unfortunate that so many people end up being stereotypically impoverished artists when they could have been not-so-impoverished artists. Not wealthy artists, mind you - just artists making more than ten dollars per hour.

I may have created the wrong impression when speaking of money. I do not believe that happiness increases linearly with income, but I do think that it increases logarithmically (http://www.onemathematicalcat.org/Math/Algebra_II_obj/Graphics/log_base_gt1.gif) with income. That is to say, I think that as your income increases, the value of more money becomes more and more negligible. But at lower levels of income, I do think that increases in income make a noticeable difference in one's quality of life.

So here is a more precise restatement of what I believe:

1. We need a greater diversification of dreaminess among people in their late teens to mid-twenties. The real world isn't just composed of artists, doctors, and lawyers. A demographic broadening of career goals would be great.
2. Stereotypically "struggling artists" might not have to struggle as much if they were more aware of the barriers facing them.
3. People should know that a step-by-step plan does not reduce the enjoyment of one's life - it inevitably improves it. Moving to New York is not a bad thing if you know how your finances will line up. It's a bad thing if you don't.
4. Dreamers tend to be too attached to one notion of what kind of life is the right life for them to live. This is almost always counter to reality. The job of doctor, lawyer, or director might seem exciting to someone, but there are tons of less-well-known jobs that the same person might enjoy just as or almost as much.

[mswas]

Many of you have shown an obscure aggressiveness towards me, suggesting that I have an unrequited crush on my New York-bound coworker (I do, but let's talk about that in MPSIMS) or that I just want to shit on the dreams of others.

I only knew this because I am a writer. ;p

I very much wish that the discontinuity between the number of people who dream of being doctors and the number of people who actually become doctors were smaller, just like I wish that the number of people who could become successful writers was closer to the number of people who wish they could. There are two ways to do this: increase job availability in those fields or decrease the number of dreamers. I chose to advocate the latter.

That's a very different thing though. I wish more people would follow their dreams too, that is also a wish for a discontinuity between dream and success. One can either temper their dreams or more fully commit to them either way it solves the problem.

Basically my problem with your OP is that you mentioned some odd things. Graphic Designer? That's some kind of pie in the sky dream where you come from? I could've been a professional graphic designer, like really truly, seriously I was on a path to get there. Do you know what stopped me? Lack of ambition. I have dreamed of being a Doctor and a Rock Star also, similarly I was stopped by lack of ambition. I could have been a famous DJ, I was on the track toward that, again stopped by lack of ambition. I had a following, a scene that I created with a handful of other people, there was a period where I couldn't go to a party without being stuck in one place saying hi to fifty people who passed by. It was brief, but do you know what? I didn't really want to be a famous DJ hard enough to work for it.

Anything that is worth doing, any career requires you to work for it, they are all competitive and none of them pay exactly what you expect them to. I have recently realized that I have half-assed my way past several pretty good opportunities to make serious money because I didn't have the ambition for it. I became moderately skilled in several fields and made a decent living. Basically, I did what you are suggesting that people do. You know what? I wasn't truly successful at anything.

Now I am working toward being a writer. I have a tiny bit of work, one regular client who I work for a few times a year, but it's real work in the field I want to be in. I still utilize some of my other skills, but even in those cases to be competitive I have to work up my skills and fight for the jobs.

Basically, what you haven't considered is what happens when you focus on your fallback career to the detriment of your dream, and then fail at your fallback. Haven't really considered that option much have you?

We are in complete agreement that becoming a neurosurgeon for the money is beyond retarded, so don't think I disagree with you entirely.

[The Bith Shuffle]

Basically, what you haven't considered is what happens when you focus on your fallback career to the detriment of your dream, and then fail at your fallback. Haven't really considered that option much have you?


I relate to most of what you say.

On this specific point, I think you bring up an important issue: the choice of a fallback. In my view, a fallback choice should be one that requires many of the skills needed for your "dream" job, but that has greater job security and allows for greater financial stability.

Nevertheless, I agree that it's entirely possible to fail at one's fallback position. This might mean that running straight for one's dream was a good idea. It might mean that one didn't pick the right fallback. Or it might mean that one had some serious life issues that would have prevented your success no matter what and which need to be overcome with care. It depends on a lot of different things.

[Voyager]

While people often have a variety of different goals, they collectively hold and are encouraged to hold dreams that are not even remotely representative of the real-world job market.

People dream mostly of these:

- Any kind of artist: actor, musician, painter, writer...
- Doctor
- Lawyer

Cite? (This being GD and all.) And the cite should be for people over six years of age.
I suspect many people think that being a doctor is cool before they take biology for the first time, that is.
I'm sure there are a set of people with rock solid C averages who have all sorts of dreams like this, but what is the problem with them having them? Someone with super low LSAT or MCAT scores are going to see the problem soon enough.

As for writing, there are a lot more writing jobs out there than "best selling novelist." My wife, who is a trained biologist, is now a freelancer doing medical writing and making a fairly decent amount of money at it. She's had three books published under her name, a few more ghost written, and one she sold which never got published. She makes most of here money writing for medical encyclopedia websites.

The thing you are missing is that all of these things take talent. There is a big difference between having a dream and refusing to face reality. The dream might be going to NY or LA and finding an agent, if you are an actor. Facing reality involves quitting if no agent is interested. But someone without a dream isn't going to try, and, if you are good, getting into the business is very, very easy.

[glee]

I was a computer programmer for 14 years, then I decided to follow my dreams.

Now I teach at a private school in England.

My subjects are chess, roleplaying and computer games. :eek: :cool: :D
I earn so much doing this that I could retire 10 years early. The only reason I keep working is that I enjoy it so much.

"OK, let's see how to mate with a King, Bishop and Knight."
"There are several ways to win in Civilisation IV."
"The gatekeeper looks grumpy. He wants to know why he should let you in after dark."

[Maeglin]

While people often have a variety of different goals, they collectively hold and are encouraged to hold dreams that are not even remotely representative of the real-world job market.

This is illogical. You are not thinking through the feedback between expectations and the job market.

If many people decided that dreaming of being a cubicle monkey were preferable than dreaming of a career in the arts, there would be greater competition for the former and less for the later. Some of the dreamers on the margin would drift back into dreaming their way into the arts, and thus the equilibrium restores itself. People want to be artists because they perceive the payoff is greater. And very often, they are simply right. It is.

Expectations about what is "representative of the real-world job market" are also often tragically wrong. I am about a decade older than you and went to one of the top five universities in the US. I was surrounded by hordes of budding computer scientists, all with ivy league educations, trained intellects, and dreams of glory. We graduated just in time for the dot-bomb in 2000. I ended up doing as well or better with my degrees in dead languages. I used to pass folks on my way to work on Park Avenue with "Will Code For Food" signs. I went to college with these people.

The same was true for finance thirteen years before. A lot of freshly minted MBAs got fucked when the demand for their labor dried up. Now one of my best friends got her JD months ago from a top school and still has not found a job. This is the worst time for attorneys, like, ever.

Hack jobs are the jobs you fall into and later discover maybe you like, not the ones you aspire to.

The sort of dream that I criticized in my OP was the artist dream. I criticized this sort of dream because it is where there is, in my opinion, the greatest discontinuity between the land of dreamers and the land of livers.

So what?


I very much wish that the discontinuity between the number of people who dream of being doctors and the number of people who actually become doctors were smaller, just like I wish that the number of people who could become successful writers was closer to the number of people who wish they could.

Why?


Many people go through their early years dreaming of artist/lawyer/doctor because of inevitable youthful ambition. Some hearts have to be broken in their early-to-mid twenties - that's just how things are.

Your authoritative tone foregrounds your complete lack of actual experience.


- Increased awareness of the difficulties posed by certain professions (I met a woman at North Seattle Community College who said she wanted to be a neurosurgeon because they make tons of money. I wanted to lecture her on the sort of life a neurosurgeon actually lives.)

Why does this offend you so much? Surely then she will fail early on and the problem will take care of itself. And after all, how do you know how neurosurgeons live?


- Increased awareness of methods for keeping decent finances while working on your art on the side, for fun.


Learning personal life skills is not exactly a controversial position.

So it's not bad to work some unglamorous job and work on your art during your free time. I just think it's unfortunate that so many people end up being stereotypically impoverished artists when they could have been not-so-impoverished artists. Not wealthy artists, mind you - just artists making more than ten dollars per hour.

Who should be doing the ten dollar an hour jobs? Why not artists?


So here is a more precise restatement of what I believe:

1. We need a greater diversification of dreaminess among people in their late teens to mid-twenties. The real world isn't just composed of artists, doctors, and lawyers. A demographic broadening of career goals would be great.

You keep repeating that "we need" this. Why?

The real world is not exclusively composed of writers, lawyers, etc. But very many of us really do work interesting, rewarding jobs that we dreamed of. Someone has to. Why not the dreamer? The odds are longer, but for many, the potential payoff is worth it.


2. Stereotypically "struggling artists" might not have to struggle as much if they were more aware of the barriers facing them.

Maybe, maybe not.


3. People should know that a step-by-step plan does not reduce the enjoyment of one's life - it inevitably improves it. Moving to New York is not a bad thing if you know how your finances will line up. It's a bad thing if you don't.

So says you. Some people benefit from this kind of plan; others don't. So plenty of people who move to New York fail and go home afterwards. This is hardly disastrous.


4. Dreamers tend to be too attached to one notion of what kind of life is the right life for them to live. This is almost always counter to reality. The job of doctor, lawyer, or director might seem exciting to someone, but there are tons of less-well-known jobs that the same person might enjoy just as or almost as much.

Maybe. But you also never know what jobs are actually like until you do them. Under such a veil of ignorance, you might as well aim for the little brass ring. If you fall short, you fall short. It is not the end of the world. Acceptance of these kinds of failures is perhaps are more useful life skill than financial planning.

[ultrafilter]

Jettboy What Bith is trying to do is validate his/her own decisions by invalidating the decisions of others. It's pretty simple.

I'm calling that Bith is a business major who can't understand why anyone wants to study something that's not practical.

[The Bith Shuffle]

I'm calling that Bith is a business major who can't understand why anyone wants to study something that's not practical.

I'm a Philosophy major who memorizes poetry in his free time.

[monstro]

In a small way, I agree with the OP. Many people sit around waiting for a "dream" job, letting many valuable opportunities pass them by because those jobs seem below them. Many young people also don't know about paying dues--which sometimes requires doing unrewarding, soul-sucking drudge work for many years before they've "made" it. They just want "it"--whatever "it" is--right now.

And I'll be the first person to say you don't have to have a dream to have some modicum of success. I have never really had a "dream", so to speak. I've just followed the opportunities that have come my way that have seemed interesting, and just kind of flowed with it. I'm not overcome with joy about my present job, but I make a decent living and I don't hate it. I'm good at it and have no regrets. So I kind of disagree with the notion that you must have a dream to be successful. Sometimes every day brings something new and you just have to go with it until you can figure out what you what you want. Sometimes that takes a very very long time.

But I do agree that life is easier if you have some kind of waypoint. So a C-average college student wants to become a marine biologist, does poorly on their GREs, and doesn't know a tunicate from a house cat. Loser material, might as well give up and flip burgers somewhere, right? No, because if they're really passionate about becoming a marine biologist, they can still become one--the road will just be harder. They may have to take a job as a lab technician in a marine biology lab for a few years while they bone up on their GREs and make contacts who will write stellar recommendation letters. Or maybe in the process of going down that road, they discover scuba diving in coral reefs and decide that's the dream they were looking for all along, and they become a diving guide. Either way, a dream is fulfilled. The road might not be simple and may take dead-end turns occassionally, but this is life. Nothing in life is simple.

Don't tell someone to give up on a dream. Give them encouragement and/or advice on how on to reach it. They will learn on their own whether their dream is really meant to be.

[Renton_lvr]

It's better to have a dream than not to have one.
It's better to take a step or two towards that dream and fall short of it than to just dream.
It's better still to have a dream, to make that dream into a plan, to work on that plan and live your dream.

You know, there are those of us who don't really have clear cut dreams or concrete goals. Are our lives not worth living? All I know is that as a young person I could have highly benefited from an adult telling me it was okay not to have a "calling", that in the absence of some burning passion for any particular path in life, following my aptitudes was a valid and fulfilling choice. I had to hit mid-thirties (having squandered a nice inheritance pursuing a dream that wasn't really a dream) before I realized that.

[Voyager]

I went to NYC right after college, with $17 in my pocket, no resume, and no idea what I'd do when I got there. I wound up living there for 25 years, and became the Creative Director and Partner of an ad agency. And yes, I had to work my ass off.

Excellent!

FTR, our plan is to live for a year in Manhattan after I retire. I'm from New York, so I know what we're getting into. I've lived all around the country, and there is no place like New York, so I understand the dream very well.

[BMax]

You know, there are those of us who don't really have clear cut dreams or concrete goals. Are our lives not worth living? All I know is that as a young person I could have highly benefited from an adult telling me it was okay not to have a "calling", that in the absence of some burning passion for any particular path in life, following my aptitudes was a valid and fulfilling choice. I had to hit mid-thirties (having squandered a nice inheritance pursuing a dream that wasn't really a dream) before I realized that.
I didn't mean to imply that someone without clear cut dreams or goals is in any way inferior. My dream was just idle curiosity and an unfulfilled desire to surf until I was 30. I spent much of my life without a real dream. That's how I know it's more rewarding to have a dream and work toward living it than not to have one.

Whatever you find fulfilling, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone or get you arrested, I think that's perfectly valid. If you find meeting your obligations to societal or family expectations fulfilling and rewarding, then do that. Just living a life void of fulfillment, that is really depressing.

[The Bith Shuffle]

This is illogical. You are not thinking through the feedback between expectations and the job market.

If many people decided that dreaming of being a cubicle monkey were preferable than dreaming of a career in the arts, there would be greater competition for the former and less for the later. Some of the dreamers on the margin would drift back into dreaming their way into the arts, and thus the equilibrium restores itself. People want to be artists because they perceive the payoff is greater. And very often, they are simply right. It is.

Expectations about what is "representative of the real-world job market" are also often tragically wrong. I am about a decade older than you and went to one of the top five universities in the US. I was surrounded by hordes of budding computer scientists, all with ivy league educations, trained intellects, and dreams of glory. We graduated just in time for the dot-bomb in 2000. I ended up doing as well or better with my degrees in dead languages. I used to pass folks on my way to work on Park Avenue with "Will Code For Food" signs. I went to college with these people.

The same was true for finance thirteen years before. A lot of freshly minted MBAs got fucked when the demand for their labor dried up. Now one of my best friends got her JD months ago from a top school and still has not found a job. This is the worst time for attorneys, like, ever.

Hack jobs are the jobs you fall into and later discover maybe you like, not the ones you aspire to.



How do you really think your Ivy League classmates are actually doing with respect to the rest of the population? What do you suppose the average starting salary of a Computer Science graduate is from your institution?

The figures for job acquisition and starting salary for Computer Science majors and MBAs or JDs from top institutions really don't go along with what you're saying. Many graduates with degrees in Business, Law, or Engineering who didn't get good grades and/or didn't go to a very prestigious university have to fight hard for jobs after graduation. Many have to accept sub-optimal positions.

But there will never be an economy in which a B.S. in Computer Science is not significantly more useful than a B.A. in Classics. An average Computer Science graduate from my own university will make more money upon graduation and have greater short-term job prospects than any but the most top-notch of Humanities majors.

The single greatest danger - and one that deserves to be brought up - from pursuing MBAs or JDs is the accrual of immense debt. There's more debt in the case of a J.D. (law school is three years, MBA two years).

If there were fewer people following their dreams of becoming a lawyer, there might be fewer cases of people going to law school and accruing tons of debt only to not get high-paying positions.

---

Careers in the arts are better for some. The degree of luck, skill, and hard work required to make it in in such a career is often greatly underestimated, which inflates people's desires for such jobs.

My earlier statement (which you contradicted) that it takes more work to make it in an artistic field than in a higher-paying field is correct. An average college graduate with a bachelor's degree in accounting has a skill that is in much greater demand than the artistic skills of the average graduate with a B.F.A. in painting. He or she can expect a very livable starting salary if he markets himself with any sense.

By contrast, the artist with the B.F.A. needs to work incredibly hard (non-stop work) and have an amazing degree of artistic ability to make a living from his or her art. This can be said for all not-particularly-practical pursuits: you have to be really good, really persistent, and really lucky just to make a living.



The sort of dream that I criticized in my OP was the artist dream. I criticized this sort of dream because it is where there is, in my opinion, the greatest discontinuity between the land of dreamers and the land of livers.

So what?


So I singled it out in my OP.

I very much wish that the discontinuity between the number of people who dream of being doctors and the number of people who actually become doctors were smaller, just like I wish that the number of people who could become successful writers was closer to the number of people who wish they could.
Why?

Because then there would be fewer people who are delusional about the sort of career they might actually end up in.

Many people go through their early years dreaming of artist/lawyer/doctor because of inevitable youthful ambition. Some hearts have to be broken in their early-to-mid twenties - that's just how things are.
Your authoritative tone foregrounds your complete lack of actual experience.

Lots of people learn, in their mid-twenties, that they're not going to get into medical school or law school the way that they thought. While I wish this sort of disappointment could be minimized, a certain amount of it is inevitable.

- Increased awareness of the difficulties posed by certain professions (I met a woman at North Seattle Community College who said she wanted to be a neurosurgeon because they make tons of money. I wanted to lecture her on the sort of life a neurosurgeon actually lives.)
Why does this offend you so much? Surely then she will fail early on and the problem will take care of itself. And after all, how do you know how neurosurgeons live?


It doesn't offend me, it makes me wish that she was more informed of the hardship and stresses neurosurgeons have to go through.

I know something about the lives of surgeons generally because my mother has worked in the medical industry for the past thirty years and we often discuss how stressful the lives of her MD coworkers are, in some detail.

- Increased awareness of methods for keeping decent finances while working on your art on the side, for fun.
Learning personal life skills is not exactly a controversial position.


I think that our emphasis on "following your dreams" often keeps people distracted from the day-to-day reality of not having yet achieved their dreams.

So it's not bad to work some unglamorous job and work on your art during your free time. I just think it's unfortunate that so many people end up being stereotypically impoverished artists when they could have been not-so-impoverished artists. Not wealthy artists, mind you - just artists making more than ten dollars per hour.
Who should be doing the ten dollar an hour jobs? Why not artists?

They could be filled in by those with less education and ambition or the unemployed. In my area, I see a lot of competition for near-minimum-wage jobs. I imagine that this is the case in many other parts of America.

1. We need a greater diversification of dreaminess among people in their late teens to mid-twenties. The real world isn't just composed of artists, doctors, and lawyers. A demographic broadening of career goals would be great.
You keep repeating that "we need" this. Why?

The real world is not exclusively composed of writers, lawyers, etc. But very many of us really do work interesting, rewarding jobs that we dreamed of. Someone has to. Why not the dreamer? The odds are longer, but for many, the potential payoff is worth it.

I never suggested that those who dream of having certain jobs shouldn't get them - rather, it's a fact that many who dream of getting their dream jobs won't.

2. Stereotypically "struggling artists" might not have to struggle as much if they were more aware of the barriers facing them.
Maybe, maybe not.


It is not clear to me how being aware of the barriers facing them could do anything but help them sort out their career goals and options.

3. People should know that a step-by-step plan does not reduce the enjoyment of one's life - it inevitably improves it. Moving to New York is not a bad thing if you know how your finances will line up. It's a bad thing if you don't.
So says you. Some people benefit from this kind of plan; others don't. So plenty of people who move to New York fail and go home afterwards. This is hardly disastrous.

Walking towards the horizon with your possessions in a duffel bag hoping for the best is always an inferior idea. Do I support a Martha Stewart-like approach to everything? Of course not. One should keep one's eyes open for unexpected events or possibilities. But thinking ahead and considering the various possible challenges one might face or events one might experience is never a bad thing.

Youthful flights of fancy are not harmless. Some people walk towards the horizon and come back with a sack full of debt. The sorts of financial mistakes people make because of a lack of preparation may not seem serious to you, but they are serious to other, less Ivy League adventurers.

4. Dreamers tend to be too attached to one notion of what kind of life is the right life for them to live. This is almost always counter to reality. The job of doctor, lawyer, or director might seem exciting to someone, but there are tons of less-well-known jobs that the same person might enjoy just as or almost as much.
Maybe. But you also never know what jobs are actually like until you do them. Under such a veil of ignorance, you might as well aim for the little brass ring. If you fall short, you fall short. It is not the end of the world. Acceptance of these kinds of failures is perhaps are more useful life skill than financial planning.

Acceptance of failure does not remove financial burden, but financial planning can reduce the likelihood of cumbersome financial burden, allowing one to stay on one's feet after failure.

---

You've persistently tried to make my views seem more moralistic than they are. People have a right to live out their lives the way that they wish. I wrote the OP and my subsequent posts because I have met more than a few people who seem extraordinarily distraught by their dreams not coming to fruition. Unable to accept that they won't be a doctor or artist, they fail to latch on to more practical options that might help them both financially and emotionally.

I don't deny that many people actually are best suited to artistic jobs or heavily sought-after jobs like lawyer or doctor. I merely believe that too many people are distracted by thoughts of success in these fields when their chances of success are not great. I think that many of them do not recognize the amount of hard work and skill required to make it in these fields.

And I still hold on to the idea that, if young people had more realistic views on what is necessary to really achieve one's dream, they would be in a better place to actually pursue such a dream.

[Try2B Comprehensive]

The third point deserves special attention. I do not begrudge the person who works at Tully's and works on electronic music at home. However, I think that many people get holed up in the "struggling artist" life stage because they are under the illusion that, within a relatively short period of time, they'll be able to get a job doing what they love. My closest friend works at a book store and works on his writing at home. He has told me that he hates his job. He has also told me that all through college he had dreams of becoming an artist. Any member of this board who met him would agree that he is employed below his intelligence. I think that, if he had been more cognizant of barriers facing artists in becoming successful, he might have been able to land a better job and still have time to work on his writing when he's not working.

Meh. I don't think you really get it.
I'm not going to be very specific. I was an artist for a significant number of years. No, I didn't get a 'job' doing it- I was the job doing it. It didn't pay me a million dollars, but I get to remain the artist. It's gotta be the major contributing factor to my current position (which is mostly a job), though I couldn't explain exactly how. In the long run it probably actually is worth a million dollars, though it appeared rather worthless at the time.

[MrDibble]

I want to address this point made in the OP:
3. A life spent producing art is not fundamentally good in some way.I disagree strongly. Art, any art, adds to the human experience and is a fundamental good. This goes for Rembrandt as much as for Romero or Michael Bay. Nietzsche recognised this in making the central characteristic of his Overman be the creative impulse.

Dali was an amazing man - if you doubt me, look at the paintings he produced before he turned eighteen - but there's nothing fundamentally better about the life Dali lived than the life the average lawyer lives.I would argue that this is not true. The "average" lawyer is not anywhere near Dali in the amount contributed to the human experience. Dali articulated emotion and encapsulated in a way that still has an impact today. Far better to compare that lawyer to the "average" artist, where there'd be less difference in impact. Or compare Dali to , I don't know, Darrow or Scalia or someone.

If somebody goes their entire life without acting in a single play or writing a single novel, that's not a bad thing.
I agree, but this is not the same as the bolded point. You're inferring this judgment when it is the former that is intended, methinks.

[Maeglin]

How do you really think your Ivy League classmates are actually doing with respect to the rest of the population? What do you suppose the average starting salary of a Computer Science graduate is from your institution?

About $15k higher than a humanities major, or at least it was when I a graduated. Then the rest of us catch up quickly, and many of us make far more. There is simply a ceiling to how much you can make writing code all day or designing ball bearings for the space shuttle. I looked at the highest mid-career salaries by college majors, and if I made $109k after 20 years in engineering, I would engineer a way to kill myself. I made more than that with less than five years in analytics.


The figures for job acquisition and starting salary for Computer Science majors and MBAs or JDs from top institutions really don't go along with what you're saying.

You are still not understanding the feedback between expectations and the demand for labor. If 20% of today's youth spontaneously took your paternalistic advice and transferred their hopes and dreams from the humanity-enriching arts to becoming bricks in the wall, the starting salaries for these formerly lucrative college majors would drop and competition for crappier work would be more intense. You'll see this happen once we figure out how to outsource low level white collar flunkies.

The starting salary for these "useful" jobs is not exogenous. It is higher because the jobs are either undesirable, have high barriers to entry, all impose prerequisite education costs, or have a great deal of competition. Usually all of the above are true. If any of the above are manipulated, say, the perceived desirability of a job, this change will drive a change in salary.

You might want to consider memorizing some economics along with that poetry.

But there will never be an economy in which a B.S. in Computer Science is not significantly more useful than a B.A. in Classics. An average Computer Science graduate from my own university will make more money upon graduation and have greater short-term job prospects than any but the most top-notch of Humanities majors.

It is by no means obvious why the metric of interest here by short-term job prospects.

If there were fewer people following their dreams of becoming a lawyer, there might be fewer cases of people going to law school and accruing tons of debt only to not get high-paying positions.

I do not think you know very many lawyers. Most don't dream of, say, spending 90 hours a week on the documents of structured financial transactions. They do it for the money, because it is (was) safe, and had good prospects. And they are miserable, just like most engineers I know as well. At least lawyers are much better paid.


Careers in the arts are better for some. The degree of luck, skill, and hard work required to make it in in such a career is often greatly underestimated, which inflates people's desires for such jobs.

How do you actually know this for a fact?


My earlier statement (which you contradicted) that it takes more work to make it in an artistic field than in a higher-paying field is correct. An average college graduate with a bachelor's degree in accounting has a skill that is in much greater demand than the artistic skills of the average graduate with a B.F.A. in painting. He or she can expect a very livable starting salary if he markets himself with any sense.

Do you have any idea what the life of a Big 4 accounting trainee is like? Alternatively, you don't think settling down when you are 22 years old to do other peoples' taxes is just a little bit sad?


Because then there would be fewer people who are delusional about the sort of career they might actually end up in.

You keep repeating this more or less, but it is not clear why this would be desirable or why it is even true.

Lots of people learn, in their mid-twenties, that they're not going to get into medical school or law school the way that they thought. While I wish this sort of disappointment could be minimized, a certain amount of it is inevitable.

I am sure I can speak for plenty of people out there who would prefer experiencing disappointment than settling for your brand of paternalistic mediocrity.

Youthful flights of fancy are not harmless. Some people walk towards the horizon and come back with a sack full of debt. The sorts of financial mistakes people make because of a lack of preparation may not seem serious to you, but they are serious to other, less Ivy League adventurers.

That was a cheap shot that missed the mark. I had my chuck-it-all and move experience. One of my only niggling regrets is that I did not actually go through with it.

Debts can be repaid. It's just money, really. It fills no natural need, and if you are somewhat awake, you can always make more. Experience, of a useful kind, typically cannot be so easily purchased.


Acceptance of failure does not remove financial burden, but financial planning can reduce the likelihood of cumbersome financial burden, allowing one to stay on one's feet after failure.

So you get knocked off your feet. It sucks. But then you get up. This is not a circumstance to be terrified of.


You've persistently tried to make my views seem more moralistic than they are. People have a right to live out their lives the way that they wish. I wrote the OP and my subsequent posts because I have met more than a few people who seem extraordinarily distraught by their dreams not coming to fruition. Unable to accept that they won't be a doctor or artist, they fail to latch on to more practical options that might help them both financially and emotionally.

Your views are not moralistic; they are paternalistic. They are the views of someone who has never actually tried to make it on his own, who has never really committed himself to something grand and wonderful because of a perceived high chance of failure. I hope for your sake that you will not find yourself full of regrets in a decade or two.

[MrDibble]

But there will never be an economy in which a B.S. in Computer Science is not significantly more useful than a B.A. in Classics.
Strong words, but, like all absolutes, I can hypothesise where it could fall down. Say Kurzweil is right, and strong AI is developed. Such an AI would be self-improving, and rather than being programmed by BS grads, they may need to be communicated with -by philology grads or linguists. And that's just one possibility.

[msmith537]

Not to mention that there are multiple millions worth of paying jobs in the United States of America for artists.

Evil Consultant (I put this in because I am actually being paid for this on a current contract)


What is that? You consult people on how to be evil?

[Malthus]

Heh, when I worked as an artist (a sculptor in a pottery studeo) I must admit I saw plently of people who lived up to the OP's diatribe.

My favorite example was one young lady hired out of a reputable art college who one day simply cracked. She was handed a mop and told to clean up: in a snit, she threw the mop down and said something like "I didn't get an education as an artist to mop. I'm an artist, dammit!".

We all sort of ruefully laughed: an "artist" who actually works as one does lots of stuff that, either literally or metaphorically, amounts to mopping up. A clay studeo naturally fills with dust if you don't.

Sadly, the life of a working artist can typically be filled with soul-destroying *work* as any accountant. The actual creative part is the tip of the iceburg, as above all you are running a *business* with all that implies - organizing shows, doing taxes, dealing with employees and customers; and above all marketing and promotion.

I'd say a goodly number of artists (probably the large majority) want to do the tip-of-the-iceburg stuff, and have distain or dislike of that below-the-visible-waterline stuff which is, unfortunately, the stuff that most often makes for actual real-world success.

An artist who is not an employee, but who is self-employed, has to be a jack of all trades as much as any small businessperson. This requires much gruntwork. Those unwilling to do the gruntwork had better be supremely talented (and have the luck to be discovered by someone who is both honest and willing to do gruntwork on your behalf), or go into something easier.

Another unfortunate fact is that there is lots of competition, even among people willing to do the work. This means that profits can be thin, even for those with lots of talent. The saving grace is of course being your own boss and producing your own product; but having done that, I personally found that, while I could survive doing it, I could not make it pay enough to be worth it to me; especially as after a while the marketing etc. becomes more and more significant and one might as well be selling any sort of widget: what I discovered was that I loved making art, not selling it. Also, I simply took too long on each product, which cut profits unrealistically.

I'm not saying that no-one should do it: far from it. I simply state that it requires certain attributes for success, of which talent at art is only one, and that not necessarily the most important; and that most starting down this path are not aware of this.

[mswas]

What is that? You consult people on how to be evil?

No, I consult on how to write a good villain.

[mswas]

I was a computer programmer for 14 years, then I decided to follow my dreams.

Now I teach at a private school in England.

My subjects are chess, roleplaying and computer games. :eek: :cool: :D
I earn so much doing this that I could retire 10 years early. The only reason I keep working is that I enjoy it so much.

"OK, let's see how to mate with a King, Bishop and Knight."
"There are several ways to win in Civilisation IV."
"The gatekeeper looks grumpy. He wants to know why he should let you in after dark."

Living the dream. No wonder you picked that username!

[Maeglin]

Heh, when I worked as an artist (a sculptor in a pottery studeo) I must admit I saw plently of people who lived up to the OP's diatribe.

My favorite example was one young lady hired out of a reputable art college who one day simply cracked. She was handed a mop and told to clean up: in a snit, she threw the mop down and said something like "I didn't get an education as an artist to mop. I'm an artist, dammit!".

While this is no doubt true, I would venture this mindset applies equally well even to more (or less) lucrative fields. If I had a dollar for every time I heard:

1) I didn't go to law school to review pointless and redundant documents. I'm an attorney, dammit!

2) I didn't get my MBA to do templates. I do strategy, dammit!

3) I'm not getting my PhD to grade horrible undergraduate quizzes, I'm a scholar, dammit!

The arts, law, business, whatever is full of people who simply do not want to do their time. I've worked with all of these people before in my various walks of life. A combination of a sense of entitlement and ignorance of what actual work entails cuts across every discipline I have ever seen. I have had the misfortune to spend time with cohorts of newly-minted MBAs, whose peculiar blend of entitlement and arrogance is equal to any starving artist's.

Some of the people wise up, other wash out, and further some get lucky and survive on the patronage of others.

[mswas]

The thing about becoming a successful artist is contained in the old addage, "It's not who you are, it's who you know.", which is funny considering that it's usually spat out as an epithet by people who don't know the correct people. The solution to this is to get out and know people. This is one of the things about New York with it's obsessive networking culture that I think sometimes is missing elsewhere. You can meet and know many, many people. Some of the most lucrative and long-lasting relationships I've had came out of things that I did for fun, whether it was playing RPGs or organizing Raves. You really just never know who you will meet along the way and how they might benefit you.

It's always better to shoot for the stars but be willing to take a little less if it comes across. The hardest thing of all though is when your dream job is offered to you and you feel some allegiance to a different lesser job that you worked so hard to get and the company would be screwed in the short term if you simply bounced.

You have to think of the safety issue like this. If you are working your safe job, you might just be keeping that job from someone else who dreams of having it. There are lots of people who dream of supporting a family with a nice home in the suburbs. If you are holding their accounting job, that might screw their dreams over.

It's optimal for people in society to be working in jobs they love.

A friend of mine quit his job as a dolphin trainer and turned down an opportunity to be a deep sea treasure hunter in order to pursue his career in acting. He just finished post-production on his first feature film where he is both the star and executive producer. If only our lives could all be so charmed!

[The Bith Shuffle]

While this is no doubt true, I would venture this mindset applies equally well even to more (or less) lucrative fields. If I had a dollar for every time I heard:

1) I didn't go to law school to review pointless and redundant documents. I'm an attorney, dammit!

2) I didn't get my MBA to do templates. I do strategy, dammit!

3) I'm not getting my PhD to grade horrible undergraduate quizzes, I'm a scholar, dammit!

The arts, law, business, whatever is full of people who simply do not want to do their time. I've worked with all of these people before in my various walks of life. A combination of a sense of entitlement and ignorance of what actual work entails cuts across every discipline I have ever seen. I have had the misfortune to spend time with cohorts of newly-minted MBAs, whose peculiar blend of entitlement and arrogance is equal to any starving artist's.

Some of the people wise up, other wash out, and further some get lucky and survive on the patronage of others.

This is completely true.

[even sven]

But there will never be an economy in which a B.S. in Computer Science is not significantly more useful than a B.A. in Classics.

Well, for me, there will always be an economy where a B.S. in Computer Science is significantly less useful than a B.A. in Classics.

I have no aptitude or interest in the technical side of Computer Science. Assuming I even managed to finish my degree without dropping or failing out, my career would mostly like be a long string of jobs that I either quit or got fired from. My best option would be to find a job outside of IT, or maybe a non-technical IT job. That, of course, would negate the value of my CS degree.

Or, put this way, even if you could implant the information you learn as a CS major into my head and give me the degree, I still wouldn't work a programming job unless the pay difference was enormous (as in hundreds of thousands.) I simply loathe staring at a screen all day.

But I am a great teacher.

Funny how things can work out well like that!

[mswas]

Heh I didn't go to college I went straight into the job market in 1996. Otherwise I would've graduated when Maeglin did. The dot-bomb shit came down hard on me as well because I worked in IT as my fall-back, at the time I was really into it. But because it failed I was suddenly competing wiht all of Maeglin's CompSci friends for the jobs. Became a lot tougher to get work than it was in the free-wheeling dotcom era.

[Maeglin]

Speaking of people unwilling or unable to do their time, I give you this gem. You just can't make this stuff up.

Georgetown sophomore seeks personal assistant (http://blog.georgetownvoice.com/2009/10/16/georgetown-sophomore-seeks-personal-assistant-takes-premature-self-importance-to-whole-new-level/)

I am a Georgetown undergrad student and part time employee in the financial services industry. I am looking for someone to take care some of my everyday tasks for 1 hr a day, 5 hrs/ week, $12/hr. I live on campus which would make things very easy convenient for a Georgetown student. The normal pay per week will be $60 ($300/month), even though on occasion it will be possible to work additional hours and/or receive bonuses at my discretion.

Additional bonuses at my discretion.

[Ann Hedonia]

Often, at the time "dreams" are developed, the dreamer does not have a full idea of the real world options available to them. My friend Ann had an early ambition to be a theatrical costume designer and actually did that for a while but one thing lead to another and she actually ended up being an engineer that designed sewing machines.

If everyone followed their childhood dreams then no one would end up doing things like engineering sewing machines because that's just not the kind of thing you think of when you are young. However, she likes it just fine.

It's very easy to let your dreams become the enemy of reality and if you are working at Wal-Mart at age 35 while still pursing your dream of becoming a ballerina chances are it isn't going to end well, you may be letting your dreams sabotage your life. Something similar happened to a young woman I know.

She had pursued her dream of becoming an actress for 14 years, while basically being supported by a very nice man with a successful business in New York City, who wanted nothing more than to marry her and start a family.

After 14 years of nothing, at age 36 she finally got 1 voiceover job that yielded a real paycheck. In her excitement, she decide that it was now "her turn" and she insisted that her boyfriend close up his business and move to LA with her where she thought her career would have a better chance.

He refused and they broke up, among lots of bitterness regarding his failure to support her "dreams".

She has now been living in LA for 2 years, in a studio with a roommate and has yet to get another acting job. The ex-boyfriend is happily married to a woman who shares his life goals and they are expecting a child.

[Voyager]

3) I'm not getting my PhD to grade horrible undergraduate quizzes, I'm a scholar, dammit!

Really? Someone went through four years of college and lots of years of grad school and is surprised that professors teach? And is too dumb to get a TA to do it? You seem to know lots of stupid people.

In nearly 30 years of engineering, I've met very few miserable people, except for a few who were incompetent, knew it, and were stuck at the bottom. They'd be miserable anywhere. Someone forced into a field they don't like, either business or law or computer science, is of course going to be miserable - which is why following your dream is a good thing. I write code and I write funny columns for a magazine, and the pleasure in a clever program and a clever column are pretty close. Inventing something is every bit as creative as writing a novel.

The engineers I know get joy from figuring things out and solving problems. I've worked for top tier companies all my life, so maybe the story is different in little third tier ones. Just because you have no interest in field X doesn't mean that everyone working in field X is a miserable cubicle dwelling wage slave.

[Voyager]

Often, at the time "dreams" are developed, the dreamer does not have a full idea of the real world options available to them. My friend Ann had an early ambition to be a theatrical costume designer and actually did that for a while but one thing lead to another and she actually ended up being an engineer that designed sewing machines.

If everyone followed their childhood dreams then no one would end up doing things like engineering sewing machines because that's just not the kind of thing you think of when you are young. However, she likes it just fine.


That's a great point. One of the biggest benefits of college is the exposure to all kinds of stuff you don't get to see in high school. No wonder little kids want to be doctors and lawyers - that is all they see on TV. Getting a new dream and acting on it is just as rewarding as following an old dream.

BTW, did your friend have an agent? Did she get auditions? The delusional will always be with us, alas.

[Tamerlane]

WRONG Monstro! Wrong, wrong, wrong.

and doesn't know a tunicate from a house cat.

You should have written ...doesn't know a tunicate from a cat in a tunic. See how much better that is :p?

I otherwise completely endorse your post.

Err...carry on, the rest of you.

[Maeglin]

Really? Someone went through four years of college and lots of years of grad school and is surprised that professors teach? And is too dumb to get a TA to do it? You seem to know lots of stupid people.

This is a distortion, intentional or otherwise, of what I am saying.

I refer to the administrative burden not placed on professors but on grad students, hence the "I'm not getting my PhD to grade quizzes" is in the present tense. Almost every grad student expects to teach, but the volume and actual time commitment surprises many people and they burn out quickly. They just need to suck it up if they want to learn the trade.

I do know a lot of stupid people because I simply know a lot of people. I also know a lot of intelligent people with enormous senses of entitlement. Perhaps it is a generational thing, I do not know.


In nearly 30 years of engineering, I've met very few miserable people, except for a few who were incompetent, knew it, and were stuck at the bottom.

I suspect there is more than a little survivorship bias operating here, given you are presumably at the peak of your career and have spent the past two decades or so working mostly with senior, committed people.

I would contrast this with my own experience: I have worked with many intelligent, highly motivated people who left all subfields of engineering because, in their own words, "it sucked". Most of these folks were non-miserable by disposition. It should be noted that we worked together at a highly prestigious and highly competitive Fortune 50 corporation in New York City. My sample is not exactly drawn from personnel at the bottom of the barrel.


The engineers I know get joy from figuring things out and solving problems. I've worked for top tier companies all my life, so maybe the story is different in little third tier ones. Just because you have no interest in field X doesn't mean that everyone working in field X is a miserable cubicle dwelling wage slave.

I don't know where you are getting the idea that I think people live miserable lives if they work in areas that do not necessarily interest me. I have never said anything approaching that. I spend all day figuring out things and solving problems, too, and I adore what I do. I also spend a nontrivial part of my life writing code, which I also enjoy.

Plenty of people have left financial services because it sucks. I am one of them.

[Boyo Jim]

I kind of don't understand the point of the OP. If you don't have goals, and you aren't striving to achieve them, then what's the point of living?


Because the alternative is less appealing. If I could do what I REALLY wanted I'd be an astronaut porn star, but that never worked out.

I have a long history of failing to accomplish my goals. It seemed the harder I tried, the farther away they got. Maybe that makes me a bad person. Maybe that just makes me stupid or inneffectual.

So my experience in life is not to push, but to just keep an eye out for opportunities that drift by me like logs in a river. It's worked out pretty well. I've lived in some interesting places and I've done some interesting things, including directing performances at the Kennedy Center, and I can't say I've worked real hard for any of it.

Right now I'm a faceless drone in a monolithic bureaucracy, and that's ok too.

[furt]

I think that people (especially white people) tend to overemphasize the idea that you should "follow your dreams."I'm curious as to why you added "especially white people."

I'm white, but I've spent most of my adult life working with kids and young people, a many of them minorities. IME, the phenomenon you speak of is far, FAR more common, and far more damaging, among the poor (who are disproportionately minority). Middle-class kids may give up on their real dreams a bit too quickly, but they have "secondary dreams" that they pursue. Poorer kids are taught to dream big, when they might be better off with more humble goals.

For example, my (white) nephew's dream of all dreams is to work on Mythbusters. But he also understands that that is very unlikely to happen, and so he is sensibly pursuing a career that will enable to to at least some of the things he likes to do -- and so he is studying hard in school and majoring in engineering. It may be that when he is 45 he'll conclude he should have gone for the TV thing harder ... but he'll probably have a solid, reasonably satisfying career to content himself with. His younger brother dreams of being a shooting guard or a concert violinist ... but also knows that he needs a backup plan, and so also dreams of being a historian or writer.

In contrast, walk into any inner-city high school and talk to a dozen poor black high school freshman about their dreams, and you'll have nine of them tell you they're gonna be NBA stars or rappers. When you point out that he's 5'2" and can't get off the bench for his high school JV team, and thus probably needs a backup plan, he'll blow you off. I've had multiple kids tell me that they didn't need to do well in school because they'd be getting a scholarship to college. None of them were especially athletic.

The causes of this are another issue (and certainly multiple), but IME the leaders in inner-city communities are very conversant with "reach for the stars" rhetoric, and less inclined to steer kids toward more realistic goals.

[Malthus]

While this is no doubt true, I would venture this mindset applies equally well even to more (or less) lucrative fields. If I had a dollar for every time I heard:

1) I didn't go to law school to review pointless and redundant documents. I'm an attorney, dammit!

2) I didn't get my MBA to do templates. I do strategy, dammit!

3) I'm not getting my PhD to grade horrible undergraduate quizzes, I'm a scholar, dammit!

The arts, law, business, whatever is full of people who simply do not want to do their time. I've worked with all of these people before in my various walks of life. A combination of a sense of entitlement and ignorance of what actual work entails cuts across every discipline I have ever seen. I have had the misfortune to spend time with cohorts of newly-minted MBAs, whose peculiar blend of entitlement and arrogance is equal to any starving artist's.

Some of the people wise up, other wash out, and further some get lucky and survive on the patronage of others.

I strongly disagree that it is as prevelant in the law field, which is where I work now, and have for the last decade.

The reason is quite simple: by the time one is actually accepted into an apprenticeship position (here in Canada known as "articling"), the harsh reality of the necessity do "do one's time" is well driven home to you. Those who are unwilling or unable to do it have already as it were been weeded out, since surviving law school requires a considerable amount of doing "one's time".

Which isn't to say that newly minted lawyers don't have senses of entitlement, but it certainly does not manifest itself in that manner. On the contrary. Low level lawyers are likely rather to take a perverse and exaggerated pride in sheer quanity of busy-work, boasting of all-nighters and missed weekends.

The difference between law and the arts is that the latter in general lacks the sort of structure of a law career. This lack of structure is both a benefit (in that it allows for greater freedom) and a drawback (in that there is greater difficulty and confusion in starting out). What it also means is that there is no *formal* barriers to entry of vetting process, so anyone who wants can *claim* the (seemingly) high status 'cool factor' of claiming to be an "artist" without actually doing any business as one; it is actually illegal in most jurisdictions to hold oneself out to be a lawyer without having gone through the formal process.

That, combined with the inherent subjectivity of what constitutes "art", leads to an aggrivated sense of entitlement acting itself out in a different manner - it is much more likely to take the form of wanting the status of 'artist' without the hard grindwork required to actually do business as one (and indeed many 'artists' i have known would have insisted that being an artist is fundamentally a state of mind and doing business isn't required to consider oneself one - few lawyers make that sort of claim for the practice of law!).

[Maeglin]

I strongly disagree that it is as prevelant in the law field, which is where I work now, and have for the last decade.

I take your point and acknowledge your greater experience.

Years ago I thought I would investigate being an attorney, so I spent nearly two years as a paralegal at two heavy hitting law firms in NYC. I would just venture that what your junior attorneys would say to you (or each other) and what they would say in front of staff might be quite different. They definitely did compete for who could process the most busywork, but this always struck me as just another way for people conditioned to be highly competitive to keep score.

How many of them really felt was another matter entirely. Everyone knows that working at a big 50 firm is not a picnic. But all of these people were wined and dined as summer associates, and sure, they worked hard, but were given largely substantive work to keep them interested in the firm. Once they got there, it was another matter. Even though they typically did know what they were getting into, many of the attorneys complained bitterly anyway and were certain that they deserved better. For a 25 year old making just south of $150k per year, this struck me as slightly perverse. The job probably would not pay so well if it were more fun.


That, combined with the inherent subjectivity of what constitutes "art", leads to an aggrivated sense of entitlement acting itself out in a different manner - it is much more likely to take the form of wanting the status of 'artist' without the hard grindwork required to actually do business as one (and indeed many 'artists' i have known would have insisted that being an artist is fundamentally a state of mind and doing business isn't required to consider oneself one - few lawyers make that sort of claim for the practice of law!).

I certainly agree with all of this, save that I do not think that being an artist carries all that much cachet, at least around here. Once upon a time, being a flavor of artist was subject to the professionalization and regulation of your particular guild, so the comparison with the profession of lawyer would probably have been more apt. The breakdown of the "profession" of the arts, for good and for ill, just opened the door for this kind of ambiguity.

[Malthus]

I take your point and acknowledge your greater experience.

Years ago I thought I would investigate being an attorney, so I spent nearly two years as a paralegal at two heavy hitting law firms in NYC. I would just venture that what your junior attorneys would say to you (or each other) and what they would say in front of staff might be quite different. They definitely did compete for who could process the most busywork, but this always struck me as just another way for people conditioned to be highly competitive to keep score.

How many of them really felt was another matter entirely. Everyone knows that working at a big 50 firm is not a picnic. But all of these people were wined and dined as summer associates, and sure, they worked hard, but were given largely substantive work to keep them interested in the firm. Once they got there, it was another matter. Even though they typically did know what they were getting into, many of the attorneys complained bitterly anyway and were certain that they deserved better. For a 25 year old making just south of $150k per year, this struck me as slightly perverse. The job probably would not pay so well if it were more fun.

There is no doubt some truth in that; there is plenty of bitching and moaning about the cruel fate of working in law; I am guilty of some of that myself, sometimes - because it is quite stressful. The pay is of course part of the answer to that, as there are plenty of jobs just as stressful and less intellectually rewarding that pay a lot less!

Though I do think that lawyering can be a lot of fun, as it poses enormous challenges. It is "fun" in the way I would imagine something like rock climbing is fun - only the challenge is intellectual and not physical.

Thing is, as you learn the ropes of lawyering, much of that stress comes from not knowing where your next billable hour is comming from. So having a lot of boring document review to do, so long as someone is willing to pay for you to do it, can actually be welcome. Of course it isn't as much fun, but it can fill the times between fun work, as it were.

I certainly agree with all of this, save that I do not think that being an artist carries all that much cachet, at least around here. Once upon a time, being a flavor of artist was subject to the professionalization and regulation of your particular guild, so the comparison with the profession of lawyer would probably have been more apt. The breakdown of the "profession" of the arts, for good and for ill, just opened the door for this kind of ambiguity.

It carries some arguable cachet - certainly more than "I dunno what , really - living with the 'rents and figuring my shit out", which is in many cases the less embellished answer to the question 'what do you do?'.

To my mind at least there is absolutely nothing wrong with a period of confusion in early adulthood - aside from a very few focused people who always knew what they wanted, it seems to be more or less the default position for most in our society. Even into later adulthood for some. For me, it was working at various different lifestyles - I was a student academic, then a junior sculptor, then backpacked around the world for some months, all looking for what I wanted to do and who I wanted to be - finally I decided I wanted to do something intellectually challenging and which paid enough for me to, finally, be able to support others rather than be supported myself, family-wise. For me, the answer was lawyering, since in Canada at least at the time the start-up costs were small (our law school fees were trivial compared to those in the US) and it was a career open to those who did well writing standardized tests (the LSAT). Certainly not the answer for everyone, I would stress!

The problem as I see it is what happened to many of my friends. For lack of a better term, they got stuck in a rut, pursuing a lifestyle - successful artist - to which they were not suited -- not because they lacked artistic talent, but because they lacked the aptitude for the sort of grindwork that success in that field requires. To me at least this seemed a bit of a tragedy, as it leads to a life of prolonged dependence on either other people or joe-jobs, which as one ages becomes less and less satisfying - or at least, so it would seem to me.

To my mind the issue is this: knowing what your dreams truly are (something that, for us not-super-focused types, changes all the time) and having some appreciation of one's own ability to achieve them, in light of the actual efforts one must make to do so and one's objective abilities.

[Angel of the Lord]

Yes. Yes it is. Because, usually, "pursue your dreams" is code for "do what we think is awesome."

I have dreams. I want to live somewhere near an ocean or large, preferably in a small town, and I want to work at somewhere low-stress, like a store. Maybe I could own it, maybe not. I want low-stress. I want a low cost of living. I want to be able to write on the side, and I want to pretty much be away from a lot of things.

The problem is--and this is going to sound arrogant--is that I'm really, really damn smart. National Merit Scholar, won writing awards in high school, AP Classes, OMG smart. And so, growing up--and even now--I have had no shortage of people who've been wanting to tell me what, exactly, I should be doing with my life. Be a doctor, be a journalist, be a lawyer, do technical writing, be a famous novelist, go into finance, be a scientist--blah blah blah blah blah.

I used to want to do this in the city, too--but then I realized that the city is expensive and full of things and fashion and distraction and, while those things are fun--especially the cultural events--they make it a lot harder to live simply, which is what I want to do. The thing is, explaining to someone that, yeah, I pretty much want to do something simple, and be brilliant on my own, and be away from the crowd and kind of isolated, leads to "but you're so smart."

I'm smart, but I have very little traditional ambition. If I'd realized this a hell of a lot sooner, I'd probably be happier.

[Voyager]

This is a distortion, intentional or otherwise, of what I am saying.

I refer to the administrative burden not placed on professors but on grad students, hence the "I'm not getting my PhD to grade quizzes" is in the present tense. Almost every grad student expects to teach, but the volume and actual time commitment surprises many people and they burn out quickly. They just need to suck it up if they want to learn the trade.

Okay, I took you as meaning someone with a PhD already, not, someone working for one. However, I never heard complaints when I was in grad school. One term I taught three classes, all for the first time, but I negotiated being made junior faculty and getting something approaching a decent salary. I did complain then, but only because the department chair promised me I wouldn't have to teach when I moved to that school, and then went back on his word.


I suspect there is more than a little survivorship bias operating here, given you are presumably at the peak of your career and have spent the past two decades or so working mostly with senior, committed people.

Past the peak, actually. :D My first ten years or so were spent in a department in Bell Labs which was growing, so there were very few senior people when we started. (This wasn't in research, so we did real work.) Any frustration came from top level mismanagement and the bumbling of Bullet Bob Allen, not from the work. I've worked in companies in great shape, growing stock price, and in terrible shape, and satisfaction with the engineering aspects of the job seems totally unrelated to the first derivative of the stock price.

I would contrast this with my own experience: I have worked with many intelligent, highly motivated people who left all subfields of engineering because, in their own words, "it sucked". Most of these folks were non-miserable by disposition. It should be noted that we worked together at a highly prestigious and highly competitive Fortune 50 corporation in New York City. My sample is not exactly drawn from personnel at the bottom of the barrel.


I'll venture a guess that the problem might have been New York. I love New York, and get the Times every day still, but it is not exactly an engineering town. I used to live near Princeton, in an area with a lot of research centers, and now I live in Silicon Valley, and around here being an engineer is still cool. We've got billboards which your average person wouldn't even understand. But when everyone you know is working on Wall Street making scads of money pushing paper around, I can see how it would be disheartening.

Plenty of people have left financial services because it sucks. I am one of them.

My hat's off to you. My daughter has an econ degree from the U. of Chicago, and she knew lots of people who went into commodities, but she thought is sounded soul deadening.

[Maeglin]

Though I do think that lawyering can be a lot of fun, as it poses enormous challenges. It is "fun" in the way I would imagine something like rock climbing is fun - only the challenge is intellectual and not physical.

Funny you should say that. One of the reasons I did not pursue a career in law is because I thought the physical challenges were not to my liking. I simply cannot function at the level required with so little sleep. One of my best friends has absolutely no problem sleeping four hours per night or putting several days at a time in at work with no rest. I found out pretty early that I just cannot do this.

It carries some arguable cachet - certainly more than "I dunno what , really - living with the 'rents and figuring my shit out", which is in many cases the less embellished answer to the question 'what do you do?'.

Just about everything carries more cachet than that, though. :)

To my mind at least there is absolutely nothing wrong with a period of confusion in early adulthood - aside from a very few focused people who always knew what they wanted, it seems to be more or less the default position for most in our society. Even into later adulthood for some.

I completely agree. It is usually very difficult to impossible to make a commitment to a particular career before you even experience it. I did a variety of things as well: political activism, pseudo-law, corporate finance, quantitative analytics, along with a year in grad school before I landed where I am now.

To my mind the issue is this: knowing what your dreams truly are (something that, for us not-super-focused types, changes all the time) and having some appreciation of one's own ability to achieve them, in light of the actual efforts one must make to do so and one's objective abilities.

Part of it us just finding an unquestionable level of commitment to your dreams that for me, only came from the experience of doing years of crummy things that were non-dreams.



The problem is--and this is going to sound arrogant--is that I'm really, really damn smart. National Merit Scholar, won writing awards in high school, AP Classes, OMG smart.

It does sound arrogant because it is arrogant. The size of the field in your high school is what, a few hundred people? National Merit recognizes about 15k out of 1.5 million people who take the PSAT. Supposing that 75% of the finalists from the past fifteen years are still in the workforce, that's already 170,000 people you are competing for jobs with in the US alone.

There are a lot of Chinese & Indians smarter than you.


I used to want to do this in the city, too--but then I realized that the city is expensive and full of things and fashion and distraction and, while those things are fun--especially the cultural events--they make it a lot harder to live simply, which is what I want to do.

You might find that it is both more difficult and more rewarding to live a simple life in the city than it is where life is simple by default.

[Maeglin]

Okay, I took you as meaning someone with a PhD already, not, someone working for one. However, I never heard complaints when I was in grad school.

I definitely believe you. I think there are two forces at work currently: the gradual deprofessionalization of academia as well as an increasing sense of entitlement among grad students, especially in a place like NY that often requires significant family or other support for grad students to live.

I am a little off the beaten path having done time in the private sector for a decade before going back for my PhD and having to consult part-time to make ends meet. I wake up every day and think, holy crap, these crazy people are paying me to do what I love to do. Complaining about it is inconceivable for me.


I'll venture a guess that the problem might have been New York. I love New York, and get the Times every day still, but it is not exactly an engineering town. I used to live near Princeton, in an area with a lot of research centers, and now I live in Silicon Valley, and around here being an engineer is still cool. We've got billboards which your average person wouldn't even understand. But when everyone you know is working on Wall Street making scads of money pushing paper around, I can see how it would be disheartening.

I'll buy that. The most typical complaints I have heard are: the companies are just crap places to work, and people don't like working on micro-projects of micro-projects. I remember one really happy engineer I went to college with: he quit his office job after two miserable years and went into civil engineering. I ran into him years later by chance as I was passing a work site and he just loved it. Overseeing the construction of skyscrapers is pretty awesome in a Howard Roark sort of way, so I can definitely see why it would be very fulfilling.



My hat's off to you. My daughter has an econ degree from the U. of Chicago, and she knew lots of people who went into commodities, but she thought is sounded soul deadening.

What I did was even less exciting. Now I have the privilege of studying the political economy of the ancient world, which won't make me rich and is interesting to about 50 people in the entire world. But it's the dream and I definitely love it.

[Kearsen]

Is it better to have a dream that lends itself to destroying one's earning potential later in life?

Look at any person who plays sports. If they are really good, they learn early on that being good is what counts. A majority of those focus solely on the sport of choice and choose to disregard studies which may lessen their dream but increase their long range earning potential.
I don't want to say that this is strictly a racial issue but it hits racial minorities harder than the average white dude (maybe because they excel in sports more than those same white guys)

Following your dream isn't necessarily a bad thing (in the philosophical sense)but it could be potentially disastrous (in the literal one)

[mswas]

Yes. Yes it is. Because, usually, "pursue your dreams" is code for "do what we think is awesome."

I have dreams. I want to live somewhere near an ocean or large, preferably in a small town, and I want to work at somewhere low-stress, like a store. Maybe I could own it, maybe not. I want low-stress. I want a low cost of living. I want to be able to write on the side, and I want to pretty much be away from a lot of things.

The problem is--and this is going to sound arrogant--is that I'm really, really damn smart. National Merit Scholar, won writing awards in high school, AP Classes, OMG smart. And so, growing up--and even now--I have had no shortage of people who've been wanting to tell me what, exactly, I should be doing with my life. Be a doctor, be a journalist, be a lawyer, do technical writing, be a famous novelist, go into finance, be a scientist--blah blah blah blah blah.

I used to want to do this in the city, too--but then I realized that the city is expensive and full of things and fashion and distraction and, while those things are fun--especially the cultural events--they make it a lot harder to live simply, which is what I want to do. The thing is, explaining to someone that, yeah, I pretty much want to do something simple, and be brilliant on my own, and be away from the crowd and kind of isolated, leads to "but you're so smart."

I'm smart, but I have very little traditional ambition. If I'd realized this a hell of a lot sooner, I'd probably be happier.

Move to Vieques, Belize, Costa Rica or Kawai and let the haters shut the fuck up. You can write a novel there. If your dream were feasible for me I could start living it by next week. You're lucky that you have such an easy dream. Go down to the Florida keys and get certified as a scuba instructor or something. Or sailing or whatever. Touristy vacation spots usually have room for shopkeepers, waiters, bartenders etc... The expense is food because it's an island. I mentioned Vieques cuz I love it but if you wanted to live somewhere cheap in PR Vega Baja is fucking amazing.

Don't be stupid. Don't let other people tell you how to live, be smart, follow your dream!

[Angel of the Lord]

It does sound arrogant because it is arrogant. The size of the field in your high school is what, a few hundred people? National Merit recognizes about 15k out of 1.5 million people who take the PSAT. Supposing that 75% of the finalists from the past fifteen years are still in the workforce, that's already 170,000 people you are competing for jobs with in the US alone.

There are a lot of Chinese & Indians smarter than you.

The ninety-ninth percentile is more than smart enough when you're talking about other people's expectations. I know that there are a lot of people smarter than me. That doesn't change the way that parents, teachers, friends, co-workers, and anybody-the-fuck-else treats you, nor does it lessen the expectations that they place on you.

And it doesn't necessarily lessen the expectations that you place on yourself, but that's a whole 'nother kettle of wax.

You might find that it is both more difficult and more rewarding to live a simple life in the city than it is where life is simple by default.

I might. And what I want might change. But a series of astoundingly bad life decisions (book smart != emotionally smart; book smart != sane, for that matter) has made it so that I still have time to figure that out.

[Malthus]

Yes. Yes it is. Because, usually, "pursue your dreams" is code for "do what we think is awesome."

I have dreams. I want to live somewhere near an ocean or large, preferably in a small town, and I want to work at somewhere low-stress, like a store. Maybe I could own it, maybe not. I want low-stress. I want a low cost of living. I want to be able to write on the side, and I want to pretty much be away from a lot of things.

The problem is--and this is going to sound arrogant--is that I'm really, really damn smart. National Merit Scholar, won writing awards in high school, AP Classes, OMG smart. And so, growing up--and even now--I have had no shortage of people who've been wanting to tell me what, exactly, I should be doing with my life. Be a doctor, be a journalist, be a lawyer, do technical writing, be a famous novelist, go into finance, be a scientist--blah blah blah blah blah.

I used to want to do this in the city, too--but then I realized that the city is expensive and full of things and fashion and distraction and, while those things are fun--especially the cultural events--they make it a lot harder to live simply, which is what I want to do. The thing is, explaining to someone that, yeah, I pretty much want to do something simple, and be brilliant on my own, and be away from the crowd and kind of isolated, leads to "but you're so smart."

I'm smart, but I have very little traditional ambition. If I'd realized this a hell of a lot sooner, I'd probably be happier.

Smart does not, however, also mean wise.

What I have found is that the ability to pursue your actual dreams, as opposed to chasing after bright shiny brass rings held out by others, has more to do with wise than smart.

Also, I've come to understand that having smarts in and of itself means very little. What matters is what you do with it.

[mswas]

Smart does not, however, also mean wise.

What I have found is that the ability to pursue your actual dreams, as opposed to chasing after bright shiny brass rings held out by others, has more to do with wise than smart.

Also, I've come to understand that having smarts in and of itself means very little. What matters is what you do with it.

You're very wise.

We should feed the dreamers to the capitalists eh Malthus?

[Malthus]

Funny you should say that. One of the reasons I did not pursue a career in law is because I thought the physical challenges were not to my liking. I simply cannot function at the level required with so little sleep. One of my best friends has absolutely no problem sleeping four hours per night or putting several days at a time in at work with no rest. I found out pretty early that I just cannot do this.

Not all forms of law require going without sleep. Certainly I have found it is not a 9 to 5 type job, but rare is the day I'm home after say 9.

I'd say the big drawback is not lack of sleep or the like from excess work, but the stress. I mostly do regulatory work, meaning my opinion is what the client has to go by on whether a particular course of action (often a very complex deal) is thorougly legal or not, and what the regulatory and litigation risks are; also, I'm suggesting changes they may make. If I'm wrong, there are all sorts of possibilities for various kinds of disaster, which is the sort of thing that does sometimes keep me awake at night: an error by me can cost literally millions of dollars in damages, result in my firm being sued, etc.

[Malthus]

You're very wise.

We should feed the dreamers to the capitalists eh Malthus?

What, as chops or in concentrated pill form?

Anyway, as a capitalist running dog lackey ... where can I buy me some? ;)

[mswas]

Not all forms of law require going without sleep. Certainly I have found it is not a 9 to 5 type job, but rare is the day I'm home after say 9.

I'd say the big drawback is not lack of sleep or the like from excess work, but the stress. I mostly do regulatory work, meaning my opinion is what the client has to go by on whether a particular course of action (often a very complex deal) is thorougly legal or not, and what the regulatory and litigation risks are; also, I'm suggesting changes they may make. If I'm wrong, there are all sorts of possibilities for various kinds of disaster, which is the sort of thing that does sometimes keep me awake at night: an error by me can cost literally millions of dollars in damages, result in my firm being sued, etc.

Heh, I'd have to go through a whole lot of schooling to get to the point of law school, the only law I could see really inspiring me is anti-trust/class-action, which I can only imagine requires sick amounts of hours, but if you get the right case it can make you a billionaire. ;)

[mswas]

What, as chops or in concentrated pill form?

How about as intellectual properties?

Anyway, as a capitalist running dog lackey ... where can I buy me some? ;)

I would say Wal Mart but I can see you are a higher pedigree of running dog, so you can get yours at Neiman Marcus. ;)

[Malthus]

Heh, I'd have to go through a whole lot of schooling to get to the point of law school, the only law I could see really inspiring me is anti-trust/class-action, which I can only imagine requires sick amounts of hours, but if you get the right case it can make you a billionaire. ;)

At least you didn't say "I wanna do international law". That's the standard "knows nothing about the actual practice but has decided it sounds cool" answer. :D

[The reason this causes rolled eyes in law firms is that actual real-life international law work tends to be either enforcement of foreign judgments, drafting of multi-jurisdiction transactions, or international arbitrations - all areas both arcane, complex and often tedious]

Plaintiff side class proceedings work is a bit of a contingency fee crapshoot and firms that do that work tend to work as litigation factories, pursuing a number of such cases at once.

I've done some defendant side class proceedings stuff, though nowadays I don't do much litigation. My practice is more designed to help people avoid litigation in doing useful things.

[mswas]

At least you didn't say "I wanna do international law". That's the standard "knows nothing about the actual practice but has decided it sounds cool" answer. :D

[The reason this causes rolled eyes in law firms is that actual real-life international law work tends to be either enforcement of foreign judgments, drafting of multi-jurisdiction transactions, or international arbitrations - all areas both arcane, complex and often tedious]

Plaintiff side class proceedings work is a bit of a contingency fee crapshoot and firms that do that work tend to work as litigation factories, pursuing a number of such cases at once.

I've done some defendant side class proceedings stuff, though nowadays I don't do much litigation. My practice is more designed to help people avoid litigation in doing useful things.

Yeah, this is more of a daydream than a dream. My desire to become a lawyer is very minimal. I'll stick with pursuing my dream as a writer, maybe one day write an episode of Law and Order or something. I get so many different dreams in my head that I think that's why writer has persisted because it's a way to pursue many dilettantish dreams all under one roof. Want to be a lawyer but not bad enough to go to law school and then deal with the tedium of preparing lots of briefs? Just write a character who is a lawyer!

I know some lawyers who do international law at the UN and yes, they tell me it's very tedious.

Law is very interesting in the retelling when a story can be encapsulated at a cocktail party but I just don't think I have the stamina for it. Probably for the same reasons I can't become a computer programmer.

[msmith537]

The engineers I know get joy from figuring things out and solving problems. I've worked for top tier companies all my life, so maybe the story is different in little third tier ones. Just because you have no interest in field X doesn't mean that everyone working in field X is a miserable cubicle dwelling wage slave.

I've worked for a number of different companies and what I've found is the culture of the company and the people there can make the difference between a job that you occassionally find frustrating and one that makes you frustrated with your entire life.

I've never really had a firm "dream" of what I wanted to do for a living. Growing up I was gifted smart, pretty artistic and had an interest in problem solving, tinkering with and building stuff. There was never any doubt I would go to college, but the question was what did I want to do with that? Over the years, my career goal morphed from the following:
Architect
Structural engineer
Accountant
Computer consultant
Investment banker
Management consultant
Lawyer
Collecting large paychecks

Now obviously I didn't do all these careers. But I looked into them and made significant steps towards figuring out what they actually were about and whether that was something I actually wanted to do. As it happens, it has led me to my current job as a manager in a management consulting firm specializing in computer forensics services for large corporations. Which actually combines many of the elements from most of the goals I listed.

Although I think I may have liked being an architect as long as I was successful at it.


Heh, I'd have to go through a whole lot of schooling to get to the point of law school, the only law I could see really inspiring me is anti-trust/class-action, which I can only imagine requires sick amounts of hours, but if you get the right case it can make you a billionaire. ;)

Considering there are less than a thousand billionares on the planet and most are industrialists and entrepreneurs, I don't think that's technically correct. You may have to be satisfied just getting by on tens of millions of dollars.

[zweisamkeit]

The problem is--and this is going to sound arrogant--is that I'm really, really damn smart. National Merit Scholar, won writing awards in high school, AP Classes, OMG smart. And so, growing up--and even now--I have had no shortage of people who've been wanting to tell me what, exactly, I should be doing with my life. Be a doctor, be a journalist, be a lawyer, do technical writing, be a famous novelist, go into finance, be a scientist--blah blah blah blah blah.


I know what you're saying. You know you're not literally saying you're the smartest person in the world, or anywhere near it. But you do have a higher intelligence and many people (parents, other relatives, teachers, etc.) noticed it. These people then think you'd be wasting your life if you didn't use that intelligence in the "right" way (aka - what they think you should do).

I'm in a similar boat. To my parents, using my intelligence meant going to college for something "good" like Computer Science (which I majored in), Engineering, Math, something like that. Then get a job in one of those kinds of fields. That's a smart job, that's something you should do.

Thing is, the intelligence I have is much, much more on the verbal/language/visual side. I'd consistently score in the 99th percentile for those areas in standardized tests and my math would (comparatively) nosedive. But for some reason, many people don't think this is good or useful intelligence. Smart == science, engineering or business to many.

And yes, it's obviously your life, but when you hear, over and over and over and over, from everyone in a position of authority that you need to do X, Y or Z and you actually want to do A, B or C, it's very hard to go against what's been drilled into you.

I'm in IT right now and honestly I hate it. It's not what I want to do; it's not where I want to be. But it's computers and it's in a corporate office, so it's "a good job". I've totally internalized so many of these pressures that the idea of trying to do what I actually want to do makes me feel like I'd be giving up and wasting opportunities. I have to fight that internal battle constantly and it's going to be a bit before I can finally not worry about what others think.

[mswas]

Considering there are less than a thousand billionares on the planet and most are industrialists and entrepreneurs, I don't think that's technically correct. You may have to be satisfied just getting by on tens of millions of dollars.

There's one dude from New Orleans whose name I have forgotten who made over a billion on a case, maybe that doesn't make him personally a billionaire but his firm's payout on one case or a couple big ones netted them over a billion. I saw him on the BBC documentary, "The Ascent of Money", by Niall Ferguson.