The Gor novels by John Norman

[jsgoddess]

I'm planning on sending my husband's small collection (I think it's the first 8 books) of Gor novels to a friend who is unfamiliar with them.

Did I mischaracterize or malign John Norman by calling the Gor novels "soft porn"? I read the first half of the first book (and saw some of the covers of the others) and thought it seemed like thinly, very thinly, disguised erotica (and I've got nothing against erotica, thinly disguised or no), but maybe there's a whole heap of plot and characterization that comes later or that I missed already?

[astro]

No so much "porn" as the novels are actually pretty chaste when it comes to talking about sex. The porn part to the extent you want to consider it "porn" is the endless, and ultimately tedious philosophical wanking on how good (Gorean) women really want to be slaves and need a good, strong master to guide them. There's also a lot of discussion on binding techniques and guides to properly enslaving a woman. The most explicit the novels ever got would be considered downright prudish by romance novel standards.

Woven through the enslaving meme there are a few decent adventure stories being told, but I don't think it's going to be any woman's cup of tea unless she enjoys submission fantasies as women are largely chattel in the Gorean universe.

You might also want to see about the value of the books before shipping them. The Gor books were out of print for some time and IIRC some of them (even the paperbacks) are quite valuable as collector's items

[jsgoddess]

That sounds positively... unenthralling. Um, no pun intended.

[The Second Stone]

No, they are not porn. I read them in the 70s as a teenager. They have good plotting for the action part of the narrative. The sex stuff is endlessly tiring. Even as a teenager I thought it was bad sex writing. For good sex writing back in the 70s I used to sneak a few passages from The Godfather (yes, by Mario Puzo) that someone had given to my Mom that she never opened. Now that had porn.

[Maserschmidt]

A lot of sex takes place, but only inferentially. The books do suggest over and over that most women secretly (or not so secretly) really want to be dominated.

[jsgoddess]

I think the person I'm sending them to is going to be disappointed. :D

[Busy Scissors]

As I recall the first half dozen or so Gor novels are pretty respectable as far as mass market fantasy goes, with the domination stuff unobtrusive. It was the later ones where he really went off the rails with it.

[Earl Snake-Hips Tucker]

An earlier thread (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=239837).

[silenus]

As novels:

Tarnsman of Gor - 7
Outlaw of Gor - 8
Priest-Kings of Gor - 6
Nomads of Gor - 10
Assassin of Gor - 9
Raiders of Gor - 9

After that they start to suck mightily.

[Qadgop the Mercotan]

As novels:

Tarnsman of Gor - 7
Outlaw of Gor - 8
Priest-Kings of Gor - 6
Nomads of Gor - 10
Assassin of Gor - 9
Raiders of Gor - 9

After that they start to suck mightily.
I'd switch the ratings on Tarnsman and Priest-kings, but otherwise that's about right.

[CalMeacham]

Send your friend a copy of Imaginative Sex by Norman. I suspected it's the Gor plots he never got a chance to use.



I never got into the Gor books after the first couple. I've read Otis Adelbert Kline, so I already had my re-tread Burroughs. So I never read the "sexier" Gor books.










At MIT, MITSFS put on a skit one year: Buckets of Gor; or Abbott and Costelo Meet the Priest-Kings

[Tim R. Mortiss]

Yes, the first eight or so novels were mostly adventure stuff (Priest Kings being my favorite). It wasn't until they hit double digits that he started going really deeply into the slavery thing. And it was never sexually explicit.

The first dozen or so are pretty easy to find in used book stores, but the later ones are really rare (I think there are about 26 all together). So I doubt that your collection has a lot of monetary value, unless they are pristine first editions. By the way, I don't think they were ever published in hardcover.

[jsgoddess]

So I doubt that your collection has a lot of monetary value, unless they are pristine first editions. By the way, I don't think they were ever published in hardcover.

I'm not interested in bothering with selling them, so it doesn't much matter what they're worth.

[jsgoddess]

One more question regarding this series. I thought my husband had the first 8 books, but so far I've found 5 of the first 9 on the bookshelves. Can they still be read without all the missing books filled in?

Thanks all for your help. :)

[kaylasdad99]

IIRC, yes they might as well be read in any order, or no particular order, and gaps don't really much matter. Also IIRC, there would occasionally be a passing reference to a plot point from an earlier story, but that happened in Bobbsey Twins books, too, and no one ever tried to argue against those being stand-alones.

BTW, the priest-kings are not really much like the Dalai Lama. :D

[DSYoungEsq]

The first book is a good fantasy book read. Norman knew he had to keep the bondage issues relatively low-profile to sell the first book. Books 2 and 3 are not bad reads, though the direction of the bondage issue becomes more ovbious. Book 4 (Nomads) was both the best book of the series (it's actually interesting seeing where he goes with his stylized nomadic peoples) and the worst of the series to that point (he takes the wrapping paper off and simply gets to the heart of the bondage issue). Books 5 and 6 were more of the same as 4, with pretty decent plots going on.

The whole thing went totally South starting with Book 7 (Captive), which is the first book not dealing with Tarl Cabot, the main protagonist. From that point forward, the plot-line of the books (the struggle of the Priest-Kings against the Kurii, and the efforts of Tarl Cabot to find his ex-"wife" from the first book, modified by his efforts on behalf of the Priest-Kings) takes back seat to the various philosophical wanderings by the author through the concept of sex and bondage, as applied to the "proper" role of men and women in life. As a teen in the 70s, I was hooked on the first books (both because of the plots and because of the implied sex). I simply gave up buying the books after about #12, though I seem to recall having read 13-16 either by borrowing or reading in the bookstore. I simply got tired of the message, and impatient with the plots, which never seemed to be headed towards any resolution of the underlying themes.

"John Norman", btw, is a professor of Philosophy at Queens College, CUNY.

[Odesio]

Did I mischaracterize or malign John Norman by calling the Gor novels "soft porn"? I read the first half of the first book (and saw some of the covers of the others) and thought it seemed like thinly, very thinly, disguised erotica (and I've got nothing against erotica, thinly disguised or no), but maybe there's a whole heap of plot and characterization that comes later or that I missed already?

I read the first Gor novel as part of a class where I was required to read some science fiction with gender roles and interpret it through anthropological theories. I really wouldn't describe the first book as being soft porn or erotica though looking at the cover of my copy of the book you'd certainly think that's what it was. If I were a 12 year old boy I think I would have enjoyed the book a whole lot more.

I had no desire to read any other Gor novel after the first one.

Odesio

[Voyager]

"John Norman", btw, is a professor of Philosophy at Queens College, CUNY.

Did he move? When I read the first few, at the time they came out, I thought he was somewhere in Pennsylvania. I would have remembered Queens college since I was born quite close to it.

I made it through the first five or so and gave up out of boredom. OTOH, a friend of my wife's (female) loved them - at least she did before she got married, I don't know about now.

In one of the Dray Prescott books, an early one, there is an aside about wiping out the kingdom of Gah because they were so obnoxious.

[Voyager]

At MIT, MITSFS put on a skit one year: Buckets of Gor; or Abbott and Costelo Meet the Priest-Kings

:confused: MITSFS didn't do drama when I was President and Skinner!

[jsgoddess]

I read the first Gor novel as part of a class where I was required to read some science fiction with gender roles and interpret it through anthropological theories. I really wouldn't describe the first book as being soft porn or erotica though looking at the cover of my copy of the book you'd certainly think that's what it was. If I were a 12 year old boy I think I would have enjoyed the book a whole lot more.

I had no desire to read any other Gor novel after the first one.

Odesio

It's funny that no one else saw these as quite as sexualized as I did, which makes me think that I was reading a hell of a lot more into it than intended. Plus, I know I was surprised since my husband tended to grumble when books had much in the way of sex in them.

[Malacandra]

Woven through the enslaving meme there are a few decent adventure stories being told, but I don't think it's going to be any woman's cup of tea unless she enjoys submission fantasies as women are largely chattel in the Gorean universe.

I, for one, was surprised to discover that there is a non-negligible number of these, even among those who would have called themselves feminists. :D

Also: It is repeatedly stated that there are about forty free women for every slave on Gor. This, though, is on a par with saying that Nottingham had a thousand faceless peasants for every Merry Man in Robin Hood's entourage: they're not the ones that make for entertaining stories.

[Odesio]

It's funny that no one else saw these as quite as sexualized as I did, which makes me think that I was reading a hell of a lot more into it than intended. Plus, I know I was surprised since my husband tended to grumble when books had much in the way of sex in them.

It's there. The driving need for the men of Gor to dominate everything around them has some sexual aspects I think. Talbot's physical dominance of the female lead is mirrored in his physical dominance of his male friend.

[astro]

I, for one, was surprised to discover that there is a non-negligible number of these, even among those who would have called themselves feminists. :D

Also: It is repeatedly stated that there are about forty free women for every slave on Gor. This, though, is on a par with saying that Nottingham had a thousand faceless peasants for every Merry Man in Robin Hood's entourage: they're not the ones that make for entertaining stories.

Interestingly there are some that take the Gorean lifestyle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorean)very, very seriously.

The Gorean Lifestyle (http://www.goreanliving.com/lifestyle.php)

[kenobi 65]

Though I never read any of the Gor books, I did want to share this little anecdote:

I started playing D&D in high school, in the early 1980s. Back then, Dragon Magazine (published by TSR, which also published D&D) contained a book-review section.

In one of the very first issues of Dragon which I ever purchased, the reviewer covered one of the latter books in the Gor series. I mostly remember the review for the headline: "Norman Gors Us Again" (the review largely echoed what's already been said here about the series). I'd not heard of the Gor books before reading that review, and decided that I really didn't want to or need to read them, either. :)

[astro]

Though I never read any of the Gor books, I did want to share this little anecdote:

I started playing D&D in high school, in the early 1980s. Back then, Dragon Magazine (published by TSR, which also published D&D) contained a book-review section.

In one of the very first issues of Dragon which I ever purchased, the reviewer covered one of the latter books in the Gor series. I mostly remember the review for the headline: "Norman Gors Us Again" (the review largely echoed what's already been said here about the series). I'd not heard of the Gor books before reading that review, and decided that I really didn't want to or need to read them, either. :)

Until Norman ran off the rails on the BDSM themes the books were actually pretty decent fantasy adventure.

[_xiao_wenti_]

The earlier volumes were rather enjoyable. Kind of an Edgar Rice Burroughs feel. I don't own the original editions, but I have the first 5 volumes translated into Spanish (Argentinian translation - Vosotros. Yuk.)

[dropzone]

Did that member who was into bondage porn get banned? Why else would he not be riding his white stallion, wearing a latex body suit and with a rubber ball in its bit, into this thread to support Norman?

[Talon Karrde]

Well, the thread linked to in this one was started by him and it says "guest" under his name, not "banned". I've noticed he hasn't posted lately and wondered the same thing until I saw it.

[kaylasdad99]

His last post was on September 6.

And he appears to indulge his predilections elsewhere these days.

[DrFidelius]

Though I never read any of the Gor books, I did want to share this little anecdote:

I started playing D&D in high school, in the early 1980s. Back then, Dragon Magazine (published by TSR, which also published D&D) contained a book-review section.

In one of the very first issues of Dragon which I ever purchased, the reviewer covered one of the latter books in the Gor series. I mostly remember the review for the headline: "Norman Gors Us Again" (the review largely echoed what's already been said here about the series). I'd not heard of the Gor books before reading that review, and decided that I really didn't want to or need to read them, either. :)

I remember when Dragon ran stats on various fictional characters (to help integrate them into the game). Tarl Cabot was given an alignment of Lawful Evil, and the letter columns for the next few months were blistering with fanboy scorn that he was characterized as evil. They wanted him to be more Lawful Neutral, but the argument that he promotes slavery (which is Not A Good Thing) seems to have won.

[Malacandra]

Interestingly there are some that take the Gorean lifestyle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorean)very, very seriously.

The Gorean Lifestyle (http://www.goreanliving.com/lifestyle.php)

You're not telling me anything I don't know. I'm not a lifestyler myself, but I've long been on first-name terms with one or two. :)

[astro]

His last post was on September 6.

And he appears to indulge his predilections elsewhere these days.

IIRC he seemed like pretty good guy. Aside from the BDSM stuff he was pretty solid SDMB member that participated and helped fighting ignorance-wise where he could.