Video game deletes files as you go

[Sunspace]

A new game has been released for the Mac. As you play, it deletes files (http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/09/11/04/art_project_video_game_attacks_apple_mac_machines.html). Symantec is describing it as malware.

[Arnold Winkelried]

Malware? How is that? When you run the program, at startup it supposedly tells you that it's going to delete files while you play!

[Sunspace]

Malware? How is that? When you run the program, at startup it supposedly tells you that it's going to delete files while you play!Well, that's how Symantec describes it. Supposedly someone else could modify it to be a real threat.

If I try it, I'll create a new user account for it.

[Arnold Winkelried]

You could modify it, sure, but then again you can easily write your own program to do a bunch of malicious stuff (if you're a programmer). The tricky part is convincing someone to download your program and run it.

I seem to remember, many many years ago, a Hypercard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypercard) stack that would show you black and white pictures of naked women (this tells you how long ago that was) and while you were viewing the pictures it would be silently deleting files in the background.

[LeeshaJoy]

A friend of mine linked me to the PC version of this a few weeks ago. Sounds to me like some pretentious college student shooting for profound insight and missing by a mile.

[Red Barchetta]

Malware? How is that? When you run the program, at startup it supposedly tells you that it's going to delete files while you play!

I haven't seen the "game" in question, but perhaps people simply wouldn't take the warning seriously? There have been numerous (actual) video games over the years that threaten to "delete your save file" (Banjo-Kazooie, for instance), and of course they don't.

[Yumblie]

I haven't seen the "game" in question, but perhaps people simply wouldn't take the warning seriously? There have been numerous (actual) video games over the years that threaten to "delete your save file" (Banjo-Kazooie, for instance), and of course they don't.

Actually, Banjo-Kazooie would delete your save file if you put in too many cheat codes at once, though it would warn you. Not that big a deal though, since it isn't deleting non-game files on your computer that would be important.

As for this game, what's the point? Why would anyone play a game that deletes their files? If the game's meant as a statement and not meant to be played, then...okay, but...why??

[Torpor Beast]

Ye gods, reading that alledged "news article" gives me The Rage. How is this piece of software "attacking" anything, when the author tells you quite openly what will happen if you run it? This kind of shite masquerading as journalism and getting accepted as the norm, is a much bigger threat to everyone than some random guy's art project.


But the security firm cautioned that the threat, called OSX.Loosemaque, could be modified by someone with "more malicious intentions" and passed on to unsuspecting users without the current warnings.


"Multi-Level Buildings Attack Unsuspecting Citizens! - Buildings with multiple floors can conceivably be used to commit suicide. "

Also,

rm -rf ~

If typed in a local terminal window, that line will delete everything in your home directory on your Mac, without asking for confirmation. Better alert Symantec, since it'd take someone only a few seconds to make a script file out of that and use it for some Unspeakable Devilry.

Speaking of Lose/Lose itself, I suspect Mr. Cage can count it as a success. Some people seem to be mightily annoyed by the fact that they're given the option to shoot the enemies, but are being penalized for it. Which shows how narrowly we view what computer games should be like.

I found this quote delicious, given the shitstorm the game has caused by doing something that people can't immediately categorize, but somehow feels negative, considering that it's their preshus files we're potentially talking about, even though nothing forces them to even download the game:


As technology grows, our understanding of it diminishes, yet, at the same time, it becomes increasingly important in our lives. At what point does our virtual data become as important to us as physical possessions? If we have reached that point already, what real objects do we value less than our data? What implications does trusting something so important to something we understand so poorly have?

[BigT]

I personally think all games should be sandboxed in such a way that they can't write files outside of their preferences/save game folder. There's no reason for the game to even see anything else in my home folder.

In fact, this should go for all programs. Except maybe that should be limited to "overwrite", and exclude the document you are explicitly opening (although that should have an automatic backup.)

[Kobal2]

I personally think all games should be sandboxed in such a way that they can't write files outside of their preferences/save game folder. There's no reason for the game to even see anything else in my home folder.

In fact, this should go for all programs. Except maybe that should be limited to "overwrite", and exclude the document you are explicitly opening (although that should have an automatic backup.)

For that matter, games shouldn't create anything outside their own damn folder. I hate hate hate hate hate games that create their own folder deep inside MyDocuments, and C:/Program Files (I don't use that folder. DON'T USE IT EITHER, especially after you've prompted me where I wanted to install the gorram game, and I answered "not in C:/Program Files.")

[bouv]

What you two ask isn't feasible. The way that operating systems and applications work these days is so complex that you're asking the impossible.

Edit: And how do you not use the program files folder? There's shit in there right from the get go from the Windows install. Since those things have to be there, might as well put all your other applications in there that want to be, right?

[Bosstone]

I found this quote delicious, given the shitstorm the game has caused by doing something that people can't immediately categorize, but somehow feels negative, considering that it's their preshus files we're potentially talking about, even though nothing forces them to even download the game:Delicious? I can't even parse it. I have no idea how what he said links up to his game at all.

[Chronos]

Ages ago, there was a mod for Doom (or maybe Doom II) where every time you killed an enemy, it killed a process on your computer, with the final boss corresponding to the process for the game itself. This is nothing new.

[Electronic Chaos]

Delicious? I can't even parse it. I have no idea how what he said links up to his game at all.

Essentially he's asking "Have we gotten to the point where something so precious to us is contained in things we don't really understand?" Which is kind of silly, in my opinion. There's quite a bit we put our trust in that we don't always understand.

For example, I'd be surprised if the average Joe could tell you how air bags, anti-lock brakes, and other car safety features work, and yet we for the most part trust them to keep us safe.

[Electronic Chaos]

Ages ago, there was a mod for Doom (or maybe Doom II) where every time you killed an enemy, it killed a process on your computer, with the final boss corresponding to the process for the game itself. This is nothing new.

I remember that, too. It was actually for Unix, and a "tool" for system administration. Each baddy represented a process and they were labeled, though. Here's a link (http://www.cs.unm.edu/~dlchao/flake/doom/)

[Kobal2]

What you two ask isn't feasible. The way that operating systems and applications work these days is so complex that you're asking the impossible.

Edit: And how do you not use the program files folder? There's shit in there right from the get go from the Windows install. Since those things have to be there, might as well put all your other applications in there that want to be, right?

My app folder is not on c:\, and neither is MyDocs - in fact, as little as possible is on c:\. It's a habit I took up when I worked as a sysadmin. Makes it much easier to scrap and reinstall the OS if (or rather, when) it craps over itself.

So, when it does, I hardly think about it, format the system drive and reinstall a clean Windows from scratch... only to find that all my saves have disappeared, because the game used the general c:\MyDocs folder instead of X:\Kobal2\Documents which is the default on this machine. Or because half of the game was in c:\ProgramFiles, or whatever. It's just bad form.

[BigT]

What you two ask isn't feasible. The way that operating systems and applications work these days is so complex that you're asking the impossible.

I think you are misunderstanding me. Have you used a Mac? All the files for an app are in one folder (that ends in .app). Even on a PC, the only time a program usually WRITES outside of it's directory (or the appropriate AppData directory, now that we are being more careful with account restrictions) is when it is installed. And all it really needs to write are shared DLLs, which should be signed anyway. You need to know they are safe to install, so you won't mess up some other program that needs it.

Once a game is installed, the only time it needs to write to disk is when you save or modify configurations. Other apps may need to edit a shared document, but that allowance could be explicit by letting the OS handle file selection. It wants to overwrite a file? The user has to specifically tell the OS which file it's allowed to touch.

And of course there would be exceptions, like antivirus software, that really need to have access to the whole system. I would also expect these to be signed. The user should get a dialog box like "This Antivirus Software has been signed by XYZ company. If you trust this company, click Install. If not, click Cancel." And allow only an Administrator to edit the allowed list. Yes I realize this would require a complete overhaul of how OS's currently work. But, right now, the best security model we have was designed over 11 years ago.

My app folder is not on c:\, and neither is MyDocs - in fact, as little as possible is on c:\. It's a habit I took up when I worked as a sysadmin. Makes it much easier to scrap and reinstall the OS if (or rather, when) it craps over itself.

I used to do that, back before I realized I'd have to wind up reinstalling most of those programs anyways. (I could try to keep track of registry changes, but that's a lot of work.) But, instead of changing the default directories, I turned them into Junction Points (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTFS_junction_point) (aka folder symlinks before the stupid Vista implementation). That way, any program that tries to write in the wrong folder still gets redirected. Vista on up comes with a command line program to do it, but Windows XP doesn't. There are two different programs for this (one command line, one an Explorer extension) in the external links section of the Wikipedia link above.

I still do this for MyDocs, as there are still some programs that expect it to be on the C drive. I probably should do it for my entire profile folder.

[badlyburnttoast]

I personally think all games should be sandboxed in such a way that they can't write files outside of their preferences/save game folder. There's no reason for the game to even see anything else in my home folder.

In fact, this should go for all programs. Except maybe that should be limited to "overwrite", and exclude the document you are explicitly opening (although that should have an automatic backup.)

http://www.sandboxie.com/

You can run any program in it's own little sandbox and it can't run amok trashing your computer or leaving crap laying around everywhere. Just delete the sandbox and you delete everything the program created or changed.

I have no idea why windows does not do something like this automatically, or at least have a built in option for it.

[[cc]]

What bothers me about this game is not the security hazards it poses but the lofty airs the developer puts on claiming he wants to make people "think about what it means to be the aggressor in a video game". Utterly pretentious tripe.

[Disgruntled Penguin]

Speaking of Lose/Lose itself, I suspect Mr. Cage can count it as a success. Some people seem to be mightily annoyed by the fact that they're given the option to shoot the enemies, but are being penalized for it. Which shows how narrowly we view what computer games should be like.


I really don't feel that I have a narrow view of how computer games should be like but honestly, but randomly destroying system files would definitely be on the list of what computer games should not be like. Beyond that, I'm open for discussion.

[Kamino Neko]

Yeah, I don't think making 'don't play the game' and 'destroy your files' the only options are exactly expanding the definition of what a video game should be.

This isn't a sandbox game where violence is an option, but you suffer in-game penalties for it. It's a top-down shooter, where you suffer real world penalties for doing the only thing the game gives you an option to do, other than shut it down.

It's pretentious wankery at its most eyerolling, not a serious statement about...anything. Not about violence, not about 'expanding the definition of what a video game should be', not about what video games are.

[Kamino Neko]

That said, a video game as UI for file deletion, if implemented properly - ie, you delete the files you want, not random documents and preference files - could be neat.

I'm thinking a puzzle game that randomly generates the puzzle based on the file you choose (size, location, file type, just to name some aspects that could be used).

[Kobal2]

That said, a video game as UI for file deletion, if implemented properly - ie, you delete the files you want, not random documents and preference files - could be neat.

I'm thinking a puzzle game that randomly generates the puzzle based on the file you choose (size, location, file type, just to name some aspects that could be used).

Wasn't there a fighting game like that ? Or maybe an iPhone app. that would generate units stats from your music files ?

[Torpor Beast]

I really don't feel that I have a narrow view of how computer games should be like but honestly, but randomly destroying system files would definitely be on the list of what computer games should not be like. Beyond that, I'm open for discussion.

The destroying files-part is certainly not the point of the game. That was probably just the easiest way to create a "real world" punishment for destroying the "enemies".


This isn't a sandbox game where violence is an option, but you suffer in-game penalties for it. It's a top-down shooter, where you suffer real world penalties for doing the only thing the game gives you an option to do, other than shut it down.


Except of course shooting the enemies is not the only option you have, even though you can do that. It's presumably entirely possible to dodge the enemies.
The fact that nobody seems to think of that after given the option to shoot, is part of the point of the game, methinks.


It's pretentious wankery at its most eyerolling, not a serious statement about...anything. Not about violence, not about 'expanding the definition of what a video game should be', not about what video games are.


I'm in turn rolling my eyes at all the people who are quick to judge art that they personally don't enjoy as "pretentious wankery".

[Disgruntled Penguin]

Except of course shooting the enemies is not the only option you have, even though you can do that. It's presumably entirely possible to dodge the enemies.
The fact that nobody seems to think of that after given the option to shoot, is part of the point of the game, methinks.
Except it is the only option you have besides lose. Peace is not an option. You either play until all aliens are destroyed or you are. The only way to win is not to play. I'd rather watch Wargames to get this ancient message instead of destroying system files. I can't imagine who wouldn't.

[Torpor Beast]

Except it is the only option you have besides lose. Peace is not an option. You either play until all aliens are destroyed or you are.

Have you tried?


Is the player supposed to be an aggressor? Or merely an observer, traversing through a dangerous land?


Seems to hint that you should be able to complete the game without shooting.

I'm actually tempted to install this on a virtual machine to test it out. :D

[Kamino Neko]

I'm in turn rolling my eyes at all the people who are quick to judge art that they personally don't enjoy as "pretentious wankery".

I'm in turn rolling my eyes at people who think that pretentious wankery about a subject that clearly neither they nor the pretentious wanker know jack shit about is 'art', and that people who see it for the pretentious, and thoroughly ignorant bullshit that it is 'don't get it'.

I get the pretentious wanker's supposed point. Everybody gets the wanker's supposed point.

His supposed point, unfortunately for him, is complete bullshit, and anyone who's ever played a single video game in their LIFE can see that it's complete bullshit with a single glance. Ergo, pretentious wankery, trying to make himself look smarter than those 'idiots' who actually know what the hell they're talking about.

Anyone who thinks that 'video games don't have to involve shooting things' is a shocking revelation is an idiot and a pretentious wanker.

Anyone who thinks creating a top-down shooter - where 'shooting things' is the only thing you can do (and, yes, it is the only thing you can do - attempting to dodge means you die, or at best, continue to dodge and make absolutely no progress, which is pretty much the same as 'don't play the game') - to 'demonstrate' that non-point by deleting the user's files is 'art' is an idiot and a pretentious wanker.

Therefor the creator of this program is an idiot, and a pretentious wanker.

Actually, no, I do take that back - to raise this to the level of pretentious wankery would be to claim that it had even a modicum of thought involved in it. (For instance, researching video games, and discovering that, hey, there are a metric shitton of genres, a significant number of which don't involve violence in any form, and another significant number of which allow it, but give other options, many of which actually penalize you for taking the easy, violent, way out.)

It barely rises to the level of the laziest of graffiti tags - a way of saying 'I was here' without making an actual point, or creating anything of worth.

So he's just an idiot.

Kobal - yes, there is an iPhone app like that. Created by SquareEnix, even. It's a really neat idea. Strategy game, your troops are created from your music files. You level them up by playing the songs, IIRC.

[Torpor Beast]

I'm in turn rolling my eyes at people who think that pretentious wankery about a subject that clearly neither they nor the pretentious wanker know jack shit about is 'art', and that people who see it for the pretentious, and thoroughly ignorant bullshit that it is 'don't get it'.


Oh, fuck you too.

BTW, nobody's saying that you "don't get it". Only that the fact that you don't see the value of the points he's making doesn't negate the art.

[Torpor Beast]

Anyone who thinks that 'video games don't have to involve shooting things' is a shocking revelation is an idiot and a pretentious wanker.


"video games don't have to involve shooting things" is probably not his primary point. Also, I'd think it's closer to "most people presume games have to be about shooting things".
I'm sure you've noticed how even in games with no real violence, like the Sims games, many people still want to find ways to kill stuff. Since that's still the most common way of interacting with things in games. Not to imply that ingame violence is inherently bad.

I personally find it more interesting, like I mentioned earlier, that many people seem to react emotionally and feel like this "game" is inherently dangerous, simply because it has the capability to delete files, even if you have to first download it and ignore the ample warnings. That seems to give weight to the creator's comments about people not really understanding technology.

The 2nd point gives it more artistic value in my opinion. Just the existence of these discussions on different forums seems to prove that people finding some positive/negative value in the "game".


(and, yes, it is the only thing you can do - attempting to dodge means you die, or at best, continue to dodge and make absolutely no progress, which is pretty much the same as 'don't play the game')


Cite?
Admittedly I haven't tested the game yet, but the description on the download paged doesn't lead me to believe that.


many of which actually penalize you for taking the easy, violent, way out.)


I assume you're talking about Japanese games? This seems to be pretty rare in western games from what I've seen.

[Disgruntled Penguin]

Cite?
Admittedly I haven't tested the game yet, but the description on the download paged doesn't lead me to believe that.


Here's the download page with a nice screen explaining the game and I'm not seeing any ambiguity. It says "If you manage to kill all the aliens without dying you will win the game. "

Now, it doesn't mention any other victory conditions but that only makes it worse. I mean, you know what will win the game at a cost but who would willingly engage in a game where you are only safe navigating a poor galaga clone and you have no idea if this has any bearing on the game?

The game doesn't have the graphical appeal to keep me trying and since no one has mentioned this paying off either no one has had the endurance or desire to bore themselves silly or there is no winning this way.

Thus is the message of the game not, the only way to win is not to play or is it actually, "life is mind numbingly boring without taking risks but at least it's safe"? If the latter, that makes no sense as in life we rarely have our dangers so neatly spelled out nor our goals so vague that there really is an all or nothing in the risk department. One game does, though, Russian Roulette which again, I'd much rather watch in Coming Home than actually play.

To me, if the answer to "would I play this" is no, then the amount of reflection I'm going to put into the "art" is extremely minimal so aside from our discussing it, I'm not sure that it's an effective way of conveying whatever it is the artist wants to convey.

If you could somehow determine at least what type of file you're shooting at then I could see some of the art because trying to get a high score by taking "acceptable losses" while risking more dire consequences might be a bit more thought provoking IMHO.

http://www.stfj.net/art/2009/loselose/