What IYHO does "looks gay" correspond to?

[AHunter3]

Just curious. Inspired by this thread title (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=539165) (and OP I guess).

[The Bith Shuffle]

Any man that combines colorfulness, effeminacy, and over-the-top-ness is a candidate.

[Ruminator]

Lesbians, I'm not good at determining. There are several straight women with short hair that don't like to wear makeup.

For gay guys, I distinguish 2 categories: "pitchers" vs "catchers".

Some of the pitchers can be tough to pick out because they blend in easier with heterosexuals. The catchers are often flamboyant with effeminate clothing, wrist gestures, so they stick out very easily.

[Magiver]

Visually, it's a look that changes as styles change so there is no generic description that fits.

[astro]

Lesbians, I'm not good at determining. There are several straight women with short hair that don't like to wear makeup.

For gay guys, I distinguish 2 categories: "pitchers" vs "catchers".

Some of the pitchers can be tough to pick out because they blend in easier with heterosexuals. The catchers are often flamboyant with effeminate clothing, wrist gestures, so they stick out very easily.

Hmmm.. interesting. I never really thought about who was giving and receiving. So the more effeminate gay men typically will be penetrated (like females) by the more masculine gay men.

[Fetchund]

I picked "other" - I can often tell if a woman is a lesbian even if she isn't "totally looking for action" - in that case, she is just "family".

[Shagnasty]

The was a recent news slip on this:

http://www.theonion.com/content/video/how_to_find_a_masculine_halloween

[AHunter3]

I didn't answer my own question, did I?

The male stereotype seems more detailed and distinctive, and when I encounter someone who matches that stereotype to an overwhelming degree I do assume he probably is gay. Generically, though, I'm clueless on first impression. I'll more often get a sense over time, but then I can't explain why I think it one way or the other. (And I guess I do tend to assume hetero by default if I think about it at all)

[Markxxx]

You can tell by the mannerisms. Now I'm in no way saying, you can always tell a gay man. You can't, but some gay men you can tell.

For instance, if you look at the reruns of "Who's The Boss," it's fairly obvious early on that little kid is gonna grow up and be gay. Same for Neil Patrick Harris as "Doogie Howser."

Now I'm betting that little kid Dewey (Erik Per Sullivan) on "Malcolm in the Middle" will be gay.

Did anyone think Paul Lynde, Jim J Bullock, or David Hyde Pierce wasn't gay?

I'm sure there were people who thought so, but as I said, you can't always tell, but with certain people you can tell.

[Shagnasty]

Now I'm betting that little kid Dewey (Erik Per Sullivan) on "Malcolm in the Middle" will be gay.

I never thought about that but I wouldn't be so sure for that example. He and his family live close to me and they own a small local Mexican restaurant that we go to a lot and I am acquaintances with the whole family. His father looks just like Erik and acts like an older version of him. His mother a native Swede. They are just a quirky family. I never heard anyone else say that although it could be true I suppose.

[Chessic Sense]

It's usually clothing. If a woman wears look-at-me clothing, she wants guys to notice. If a man wears look-at-me clothing, he wants guys to notice. Such clothing includes tight jeans, trendy shoes (sandals?), any type of V-neck, accessories such as scarves (unless, of course, it's really cold and you're outside) or bracelets.

Naturally, there's no strict rule but that's the best generalization I've got.

[The Great Sun Jester]

As a straight guy who has been hit on numerous times by men I would never have guessed gay...who upon interrogation thought I was gay and not just a fun convert project...I am simply unable to participate in this pole. Poll, I mean.

[Shagnasty]

As a straight guy who has been hit on numerous times by men I would never have guessed gay...who upon interrogation thought I was gay and not just a fun convert project...I am simply unable to participate in this pole.

I know, sometimes you just have to find out these things about other guys the really long and hard way. You can get get caught up in a slippery slope sometimes if you worry about that that type of thing too much though.

[panache45]

Most of the people I know actually are gay. But if I see a stranger, and think he looks gay, it usually turns out to be wishful thinking on my part. Even though I'm in a monogamous relationship, I like to think that every hot man is gay. And I think I'm right, more times than not.

[Nava]

If there is a picture on their desk of themselves and someone from the same gender hugging, then I'll assume there's both gay going on and a long-term-relationship.

Unless I see something that blatant, I don't assume that a woman who isn't feminine is gay (I'm a female engineer, so that line of thinking would lead me to assume that 90% of the women I met profesionally are gay - heck, given how much I spend on makeup, I'd have to assume I'm gay) or that a man with wrist problems is gay. And I find the assumption that a gay guy with feminine behaviour will be a "catcher" absolutely hilarious; several of the gay couples I know would both be catchers according to that mindset, which poses some logistic problems :p I guess they could limit themselves to a life of 69s...

[Fetchund]

To balance out the world, I always assume someone is gay until proven not. Somebody has to do it!

[Ruminator]

And I find the assumption that a gay guy with feminine behaviour will be a "catcher" absolutely hilarious;

Its human behaviors so it's not an absolute but there are tendencies. Some guys are more "dominant" and other guys more "submissive" in their roles as a couple.

Just like it's possible for the wife to "wear the pants" in a heterosexual marriage. It's certainly possible for the woman to earn the big money and whip her hogtied husband in bed, but it's not typical.



that a man with wrist problems is gay.

Well, there are 3 billion males in this world and I haven't met them all and anything is possible but personally, I've never met a male with feminine wrist gestures to be heterosexual.

[Unauthorized Cinnamon]

First, I'm sure many people are homosexual without being identifiable by sight. But the men and women who make me pause and think, "probably gay" typically demonstrate a lack of concern for appearing masculine or feminine, respectively. Guys who move in stereotypically feminine ways, care about "girly" things, and don't try to be "tough." And women who don't bother to get feminine haircuts, wear makeup, or wear clothing that emphasizes the female figure. (I know lots of mothers of small children who wear jeans and t-shirts and no makeup, but they don't have butch haircuts or sport a lot of flannel.)

[panache45]

Its human behaviors so it's not an absolute but there are tendencies. Some guys are more "dominant" and other guys more "submissive" in their roles as a couple.

Yes, but without evidence, there's literally no way to tell whether a given person is a top or bottom. It doesn't correlate with any non-sexual behavior. I know quite a few people in the Leather community, and there's really no way to tell other than checking out their hankies.

[Alex_Dubinsky]

You can tell by the mannerisms. Now I'm in no way saying, you can always tell a gay man. You can't, but some gay men you can tell.

For instance, if you look at the reruns of "Who's The Boss," it's fairly obvious early on that little kid is gonna grow up and be gay. Same for Neil Patrick Harris as "Doogie Howser."

Now I'm betting that little kid Dewey (Erik Per Sullivan) on "Malcolm in the Middle" will be gay.
See, there are two ways to go with this. On the one hand, you have people who exhibit gay cultural traits, etc, and look as gay as they try to look.

On the other hand, you have people being BLATANTLY HATEFUL OF CERTAIN BYSTANDING INDIVIDUALS AND ATTRIBUTING TO THEM COMPLETELY UNWARRANTED TRAITS DUE TO A NONDESCRIPT WEIRDNESS. Usually, the target male is attractive but not in the butch way. Often he won't be as confident or have some other defect of demeanor. And, automatically, he's a fag.

Yeah, you just knew Neil Patrick Harris was gonna grow up gay. :rolleyes: How many little boys do you eyeball while imagining them to be gay, exactly? Is this a pursuit that takes up a significant portion of your day?

[Alex_Dubinsky]

Why is it in this thread, and another recent thread ("Why are stupid-looking people stupid"), are there so few people saying not to fucking prejudge (ie, be prejudiced) based on how someone looks. Shouldn't this be a staple of liberal ideology?!

[Ruminator]

Why is it in this thread, and another recent thread ("Why are stupid-looking people stupid"), are there so few people saying not to fucking prejudge (ie, be prejudiced) based on how someone looks.

The human race prejudges and stereotypes because it's effective to some degree. Even infants form opinions and prejudge adult faces. We seemed to be hardwired for it. Our reptilian brain continues to prejudge while our cortex keeps trying to convince our civilized ego not to stereotype. The cortex seems to be losing that battle.

[JR Brown]

First, I'm sure many people are homosexual without being identifiable by sight. But the men and women who make me pause and think, "probably gay" typically demonstrate a lack of concern for appearing masculine or feminine, respectively. Guys who move in stereotypically feminine ways, care about "girly" things, and don't try to be "tough." And women who don't bother to get feminine haircuts, wear makeup, or wear clothing that emphasizes the female figure. (I know lots of mothers of small children who wear jeans and t-shirts and no makeup, but they don't have butch haircuts or sport a lot of flannel.)

I'm a heterosexual female, and that describes me, and the kind of guys I want to date, in the reverse order. Does that mean I'm secretly a butch lesbian who likes gay men?

[Hilarity N. Suze]

I have a friend, we've been friends for 25 years or so. When we first met she was married, but she got divorced. Since then, pickin's have been slim for her.

Why? Because she looks like a lesbian.

We've sat around on more than one occasion trying to figure out how to fix this. Longer hair? She doesn't like longer hair. Anyway it's not just her hair. It isn't particularly butchy hair, and not even that short. And she wears makeup, not a lot, but she's a blonde so...mascara, eyeliner. Dangly earrings.

At one point she worked in a bank where they had uniforms, a different one each day. A couple of them featured frilly blouses. The frilly blouses on her were just...wrong. Bad bad wrong. (I should note that each separate version of the uniform was wrong for somebody in that bank, so it was equal opportunity fashion oppression.) The frilly thing looked like if you put a dog in a tutu, to use a really bad similar, because my friend is not a dog. That just wasn't her good look. The tailored navy blue suit with the buttoned-down Oxford shirt was her good look.

She ended up getting the dress code changed because she finally pointed out that the GUYS didn't have to wear the frilly blouse, so it was discrimination.

She is a tall blonde, and for awhile the only guys who were asking her out were shorter than she was, which she found unacceptable. But taller guys never asked her out, and at least once a guy she worked with told her, years later, that he didn't, because he thought she was into women.

[AHunter3]

First, I'm sure many people are homosexual without being identifiable by sight. But the men and women who make me pause and think, "probably gay" typically demonstrate a lack of concern for appearing masculine or feminine, respectively. Guys who move in stereotypically feminine ways, care about "girly" things, and don't try to be "tough." And women who don't bother to get feminine haircuts, wear makeup, or wear clothing that emphasizes the female figure. (I know lots of mothers of small children who wear jeans and t-shirts and no makeup, but they don't have butch haircuts or sport a lot of flannel.)

If we assume that more people are heterosexual than aren't, attitudes such as this end up having a political agenda whether you intend them or not: "Conform to sex role expectations, or our expectations of you will make you heterosexually ineligible".

Having been through that gauntlet most of my life, I tend to resent it. I suppose I probably overcompensate by being uninclined to categorize someone unless they conform to so many simultaneous stereotypes that I end up thinking that any person exhibiting that behavior is either emulating gay culture from being a part of it or is deliberately adopting signals for the explicit purpose of making the social statement "I am gay". Moving in graceful flowing ways, caring about things more conventionally considered womens' concerns, not trying to be 'tough', would NOT be anywhere near enough. Dub in certain emotive speech patterns, specific gestures, facial expressions, clothing choices, and eventually I do draw the conclusion, but hell, there has to be room for a person to flip off sex role expectations and not conform to that without failure to do so being equated with being gay.

[Beware of Doug]

If we assume that more people are heterosexual than aren't, attitudes such as this end up having a political agenda whether you intend them or not: "Conform to sex role expectations, or our expectations of you will make you heterosexually ineligible."

Having been through that gauntlet most of my life, I tend to resent it.
[...] hell, there has to be room for a person to flip off sex role expectations and not conform to that without failure to do so being equated with being gay.I agree (like you, mostly because of my own experiences with sex role expectations). But those who may want to inhabit that "room" may not get much sympathy from the gay community - at least not the activist, thinking/theorizing, identity-politics segment of it. That segment is probably not much troubled by the stereotyping of nongay people as gay - it raises consciousness as to what they've been up against through most of history.

It's too bad in some ways, but when a group addresses discrimination, group identity and consciousness tend to take precedence over the individual - just as it did with the people doing the discriminating.

There is also, in identity politics, a strong pressure to assume that all discrimination is more or less alike, and to draw a hard line between oppressor and oppressed groups. This helps form solidarity between oppressed groups, but if you're a disadvantaged member of the oppressor group, you really don't matter. Again, group trumps individual.

[AHunter3]

I dunno, I've found some gay folks to be strongly supportive. Sure, I've seen some of what you describe, also, but not as often among those who seem truly politically active. (The gay guys are also usually pretty supportive of women's struggles against patriarchy, btw)

[Beware of Doug]

I dunno, I've found some gay folks to be strongly supportive. Sure, I've seen some of what you describe, also, but not as often among those who seem truly politically active. (The gay guys are also usually pretty supportive of women's struggles against patriarchy, btw)OK. I'm probably selling them short. I'm a grad student and read all kinds of polemical twaddle. The gay friends I have had have all been very accepting of individuals as individuals - even the one or two who were academics.

[Argent Towers]

For younger guys, here's the look I have in mind: tight designer jeans, a button-down long-sleeve shirt of silk or some other showy fabric, with a striped or decorated design; a toned, trim physique; tanned skin; and "done" hair. That last part is particularly important because few straight guys around here seem to "do" their hair anymore. The shaggy mop style is very much in fashion for run of the mill straight guys.

███ SIT NOMINE DIGNA ███

[JR Brown]

For younger guys, here's the look I have in mind: tight designer jeans, a button-down long-sleeve shirt of silk or some other showy fabric, with a striped or decorated design; a toned, trim physique; tanned skin; and "done" hair. That last part is particularly important because few straight guys around here seem to "do" their hair anymore. The shaggy mop style is very much in fashion for run of the mill straight guys.

███ SIT NOMINE DIGNA ███

In other words, hot guys who dress up are gay. Thus making the straight guys even less willing to put any effort in. Sigh.

[Abby_Emma_Sasha]

Christian Siriano

:D

[Argent Towers]

In other words, hot guys who dress up are gay. Thus making the straight guys even less willing to put any effort in. Sigh.

No, not at all. There are different ways of "dressing up" and being "hot" than having gelled hair, tanning-bed skin and some showy silk shirt and pre-faded designer jeans. The look I'm talking about is slick, but IMO fairly gauche and lacking in any subtlety. There are like 100 clone-like guys that wear this "young, well-off, gay" uniform around here.

This kind of look used to be associated with frat guys, jocks and macho straight men, but this is not really any longer the case. The "metrosexual" thing was not really a long lasting fashion trend among younger men. Shaggy mop hair, beard stubble, khakis (or tight jeans, for the skinny hipsters) are "in" now, at least it seems to me. The "done up" look says - "gay, gay, gay."