Canada - what makes Canada great [Archive] - Straight Dope Message Board

Mahna Mahna

11-11-2009, 09:55 AM

I love that we're home to the most multicultural city in the world. I can have Chinese buns for breakfast, Lebanese takeout for lunch, French pastries for snack and Jamaican oxtail stew for dinner. I can go catch the latest Bollywood blockbuster at the Indian cinema, or go watch the old Greek guys smoke and play backgammon in the park, or catch a soccer game at the Brazilian sports bar down the street.

I love that we have so many beautiful unspoiled places that take my breath away. I've climbed up Grouse Mountain, watched the sun set at Peggy's Cove, canoed through Algonquin Park and hiked along the edge of the St Lawrence... it never fails to make me proud that this is home.

I love that even our politicans are relatively scandal free. Sure, there's the usual minor scandals involving kickbacks, payoffs and name-calling (anyone remember the "clucking faster" incident?).... but when was the last time you heard about full blown corruption like an affair with an intern, an illegitimate love-child, or random gay sex in public bathrooms? Hell, the last time things started to get interesting in government, they just prorogued Parliament for a few weeks so that everyone could simmer down. Does it get more polite than that?

And I know the OP wants to avoid the health care debate, but I love that we have socialised health care, that same-sex marriage has been embraced, and that gun ownership isn't nearly as widespread. It warms the pinko liberal cockles of my heart.

otternell

11-11-2009, 10:00 AM

Grey

11-11-2009, 10:15 AM

Well that was obviously a park (the causeway/pier thing at the opening). Actually I thought it might be somewhere in Ottawa's green belt.

Health Care is sufficiently loved to have the prime mover (Tommy Douglas) voted Greatest Canadian. Are there continual discussions about cost/benefit, waiting times, private/public ratios and everything else? Yeah, of course. There are entrenched positions which make altering the system harder to do - well of course. But since it's a public system, the future is mainly in the hands of the electorate instead of corporate interests.

Athena

11-11-2009, 10:19 AM

We Otters luvs teh clear running streams! :D

Our honeymoon was camping in Canada and it seemed like a really nice place for the outdoorsy kind of people that we are, but to be fair I haven't given WI, MN or MI the chance yet.

C'mon up to da UP sometime. We have plenty of outdoors for ya. Plus, we're about as Canadian as you can get without actually, you know, moving to Canada. We say "eh?", we say "aboot", Hockey is more popular than Football, and we even get CBC on the TV.

Can't help on the Health Care, though. Hubby and I have often thought we'd love to figure out how to get Canadian citizenship and make the move. It really wouldn't be that big of a change for us culturally, and the benefits would be enormous.

The Lurker Above

11-11-2009, 10:22 AM

[
Re: gun ownership: is it not allowed, or more tightly regulated?

You and everyone you know happy with the health care system? any trouble getting in to see a Dr. for an annual exam? any trouble getting medical care if you fall off a roof or nearly slice off a fingertip? (hubby is accident prone!)

As I understand it handguns are very, very hard to get legally, but rifles/shotguns are pretty common (outside urban areas) and easy to get.

Some areas have a shortage of GPs so it can be hard to get a regular doctor; you may have to make do with urgent care clinics and/or emergency rooms. Almost slicing off a fingertip is an ER trip I'd imagine and there's no (financial) trouble in going to one of those. Honestly we may have some complaints about healthcare but no one has to worry about switching/losing a job having an effect on thier healthcare.

Ludy

11-11-2009, 10:27 AM

Mahna Mahna its not that I wanted to avoid the health care debate, I just didn't want the whole thread to turn into one. (there are already plenty of those)

Re: gun ownership: is it not allowed, or more tightly regulated?

You and everyone you know happy with the health care system? any trouble getting in to see a Dr. for an annual exam? any trouble getting medical care if you fall off a roof or nearly slice off a fingertip? (hubby is accident prone!)

Gun control is regulated. Basically if you want to own a hunting rifle you have to take a non-restricted gun course. Get a licence and you are done. The same is true for handguns but it is a restricted gun course. There are gun storage laws. You can't just get a gun and keep it next to your bed, it has to be locked and unloaded at all times. Transporting of restricted firearms can only be between your home and the firing range. There is more to it, but that is the basics.

I love Canada because I live in a major city, take a train into work that is run off of wind power, and on a clear day I can see the Rockies from my house.

I don't have to lock my doors during the day. In fact one summer I lived in a brutally hot small town and the house has no air conditioning. My roommate and I left the windows (and sometimes the door) open all day. Even when we were not home.

I had a baby this summer. For the delivery I had a private room (standard practice) with my own bathroom and shower. I also splurged and got a private room for recovery and the grand total was $40. I had to pay for the recovery room. My daughter was born with hip dysplasia and had to wear a harness. She had x-rays done of her hips before she was even alive for one whole day, and two sets of ultrasounds before we could stop puttering in the harness. Grand total $0.

I have driven across the country a few times, and every single day of the drive I was amazed by how beautiful and diverse this place is.

otternell

11-11-2009, 10:53 AM

Ludy sealed the deal! of course since there is sure to be a huge PITA process involved in becoming a Canadian (I must be immature, but when I say Canadian, I think of the Ren and Stimpy episode!) Athena wins on practicality and outdoorsy-ness! Grab the dogs, the man, the canoe, and look out UP, cause the Otters want yur clear running streams! (only for frolicking in of course!)

Larry Mudd

11-11-2009, 10:54 AM

Re: gun ownership: is it not allowed, or more tightly regulated?I think that one of the most striking cross-border differences on certain issues is the way that Constitutional issues muddy things in the US and emotionalize the debate beyond rationality.

It's much rarer for gun owners to object to common-sense gun control issues, here. Similarly, it's only a tiny minority that can find it in their hearts to object against laws against advocating genocide & whatnot.

If an issue comes close to the 1st or 2nd amendments down South, there tends to be a lot of hysteria and slippery-slopism, because there's an almost religious feeling about the Constitution. Up here, the argument is a little more balanced.

For example, we have legislation intended to address circumstances similar to the Rwandan genocide here, and I've often heard this criticized as a violation of free speech, as though the public interest is better served if groups like the RTLM are allowed to diseminate their views unmolested, and that it's only appropriate for the law to intervene once the machetes have actually been picked up. This is a huge cultural difference, in my opinion.

Athena

11-11-2009, 10:58 AM

Grab the dogs, the man, the canoe, and look out UP, cause the Otters want yur clear running streams! (only for frolicking in of course!)

We actually have a clear running stream in our backyard, and yes, we do frolic in it, in the summer at least.

In the winter, we frolic from the sauna to the snowbank. And sometimes to the vodka bar that Mr. Athena builds out of snow on our deck :D

otternell

11-11-2009, 11:03 AM

We actually have a clear running stream in our backyard, and yes, we do frolic in it, in the summer at least.

In the winter, we frolic from the sauna to the snowbank. And sometimes to the vodka bar that Mr. Athena builds out of snow on our deck :D

aaahhh frolic! The frolicking you got going on sounds divine!

I am in Iowa (hangs head in shame) and you do not frolic in our rivers/streams unless you want to take a bleach bath when you get home. Pretty yucky stuff down here, comes from all that agricultural run-off, I believe. Hubby canoed in WI (Kickapoo River) last year with his buddies and talked on and on about how clear the water was. (soo jealous!)

otternell

11-11-2009, 11:06 AM

LM what you describe sounds pretty nice too! seems like the debates here are so shrill and no one is willing to give even an inch of ground.

So far, while I definitely need to be fair to my own country and give WI/MN/MI a try; Canada sounds like an awfully cool place. A chance to let my inner hippie/liberal fly free!

Mr. Moto

11-11-2009, 11:43 AM

I love that even our politicans are relatively scandal free. Sure, there's the usual minor scandals involving kickbacks, payoffs and name-calling (anyone remember the "clucking faster" incident?).... but when was the last time you heard about full blown corruption like an affair with an intern, an illegitimate love-child, or random gay sex in public bathrooms? Hell, the last time things started to get interesting in government, they just prorogued Parliament for a few weeks so that everyone could simmer down. Does it get more polite than that?

Uh, no. The sex stuff is the minor stuff, there and here. The real corrupting force in politics involves abuse of power and money, and it seems that your system isn't immune to either.

The sponsorship scandal wasn't a minor scandal, some high ranking politicians and bureaucrats went to jail, Paul Martin lost control of the Liberals and the Conservatives won power. That's pretty big by consequences alone.

Le Ministre de l'au-delà

11-11-2009, 12:18 PM

There are many things in Canada that I'm proud of, but I would say first and foremost, I'm proud of our culture, in all its bizarre, contradictory glory.

I love it that our two best jazz guitarists started out doing country music in Winnipeg.

I love it that the Group of Seven includes ten painters, and Tom Thomson, arguably the most famous painter associated with them, isn't actually a member.

I love it that our comedy shows have a now established tradition of punking our politicians, right up to the Prime Minister.

I love it that our country's history is full of nuggets like Sir John A. MacDonald's drunken filibuster on the floor of House of Commons or the fact that John Graves Simcoe, Upper Canada's first Liuetenant Governor, passed legislation in 1793 that allowed for the gradual abolition of slavery and yet, it remains an underexplored story to most of the country's population.

I love it that our best known popular historian demonstrated the best way to roll a joint on national television.

I love it that our Prime Minister grabbed a pesky demonstrator by the neck (thus giving the world the term "A Shawinigan handshake".) but when someone broke into the Prime Minister's residence, it was his wife who went downstairs to investigate, armed with only an Inuit sculpture.

I love it that for the last few World Cups, there has been an established community in Toronto for every country competing, and that that community parades the streets in joy and pride for every game.

I love it that Toronto was chosen for the World Pride day in 2014 and the Pan American games in 2015.

I could go on, and probably will, but there is much to love about Canada...

Larry Mudd

11-11-2009, 12:28 PM

I love it that our best known popular historian demonstrated the best way to roll a joint on national television.YouTube link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFxCqXwBZ28). (God bless the CBC.)

The Lurker Above

11-11-2009, 12:37 PM

I love it that our comedy shows have a now established tradition of punking our politicians, right up to the Prime Minister.

Not to mention getting politicians to go skinny dipping on national TV.... well, one politician at least.

This_Just_In...

11-11-2009, 12:44 PM

The biggest difference between Canada and the US is the sheer amount of untouched and unspoiled nature. And it is not just the far north that is empty. You can easily drive a half hour out of a place like Calgary - a city of a million people - and literally be in the middle of nowhere! I`ve driven across both the US and Canada and this is the single most striking difference. Sure, places like southern Utah are pretty and fairly unpopulated, but the US does not come close overall. There are just more people in America - everywhere. And in Canada there is much more wildlife. I joke to people who I work with in here in Oregon that in order to bag a deer in Saskatchewan all they really need to do is go there, rent a big SUV and get all the insurance on it. Then start driving around. I`m actually only half joking. My cousin live in North Vancouver and just had a bear on their porch. That doesn`t happen to my knowledge in Portland.

And then there is the Canadian healthcare, which is awesome and the one other thing I truly miss since moving to the US.

Ogre

11-11-2009, 12:58 PM

Livardo

11-11-2009, 01:07 PM

I think our identity is exemplified by the background of our Governor General. She's a black immigrant woman from Haiti. And I'm very happy about that.

otternell

11-11-2009, 01:09 PM

I'm sure it's very nice (I've been there. Enjoyed it, except for Thunder Bay, where we were treated like pariahs). But for this Southern kid who can't stand winter light even at 33 degrees north, brrrrrrr...no thanks. It ain't the cold. It's the darkness.

Looking at a map, and 33 degrees isn't all that "north" to me! How can you stand it being so hot all the time! ;) I spent a week in Brownsville in October a couple of years ago and I was miserable; every time I went outside it was 90! Granted that's like 26 degrees north (or thereabouts - oh excuse me: thereaboots!) :p

Ogre

11-11-2009, 01:12 PM

Looking at a map, and 33 degrees isn't all that "north" to me! How can you stand it being so hot all the time! ;) I spent a week in Brownsville in October a couple of years ago and I was miserable; every time I went outside it was 90! Granted that's like 26 degrees north (or thereabouts - oh excuse me: thereaboots!) :pOh man, I love the hot weather and long summer days. Cold, dark weather makes me feel all cramped and miserable. I can stretch out and enjoy myself when it's 95 and 90 percent humidity. :)

FloatyGimpy

11-11-2009, 01:12 PM

I'm sure it's very nice (I've been there. Enjoyed it, except for Thunder Bay, where we were treated like pariahs). But for this Southern kid who can't stand winter light even at 33 degrees north, brrrrrrr...no thanks. It ain't the cold. It's the darkness.

I learned something when I was in the US in September. I live on Vancouver Island. Here in the summer it's so nice because it can stay light till 10 pm. I went to Arizona and it gets dark almost the same time every day at about 6:30-7:00.

It does suck in the winter though when it's dark by 5:00.

Livardo

11-11-2009, 01:22 PM

otternell

11-11-2009, 01:27 PM

When we camped in Canada (Eagle Lake Ontario) it was early July and I was surprised at how chilly it got at night, compared to what I am used to. but the long sunlight in the summer that floatygimpy described sounds nice.

Now livardo may have hit the nail on the head. the political debates here are enough to make me want to scream - so angry all the time. (quite frankly, this is exactly why pot should be legal!) Hey, is pot legal in Canada?

Cat Whisperer

11-11-2009, 01:33 PM

I Am Canadian! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRI-A3vakVg)
For the record, only Torontonians and Newfies say "aboot." The rest of us say "abowt." Eh.

Yeah, we have nice, natural areas, but this thread seems to be giving the impression that all Canadians wear lumberjack shirts and sleep in tents. I live in Calgary, and the last time I was in a tent was maybe 20 years ago, and I like it that way. In fact, the vast majority of Canadians live in large cities. We go visit nature.

I wish we had locations for guests, so you could see that you will get different perspectives from different regions of Canada. The BC experience is not the same as the prairie experience or the Toronto experience or the Montreal experience or the Maritimes experience or the northern experience.

What makes Canada great? I think in a nutshell we don't get in each other's faces too much. That goes a long way.

Cat Whisperer

11-11-2009, 01:36 PM

Pot is kind of a grey area legally (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabis_legalization_in_Canada)- I've seen people walking down the street smoking a joint, but if you went out of your way, you could probably still get arrested for it. I think it has been de-criminalized but still not technically legalized. My take on it - if you want to smoke a joint or two in the privacy of your own home, no one is going to bother you.

otternell

11-11-2009, 01:37 PM

Pot is kind of a grey area legally (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabis_legalization_in_Canada)- I've seen people walking down the street smoking a joint, but if you went out of your way, you could probably still get arrested for it. I think it has been de-criminilazed but still not technically legalized. My take on it - if you want to smoke a joint or two in the privacy of your own home, no one is going to bother you.

that settles it! ;)

Hypnagogic Jerk

11-11-2009, 01:43 PM

I guess it's that for the most part it's a liberal country, though I live in Alberta and they are very un-liberal.
Well, you live there and I don't, but in my experience Alberta, while more conservative-minded than most other Canadian provinces, still offers a wide variety of political opinion.

he means conservative, but the Canadian conservative party would not be considered conservative in the US
I'm not sure of that. I've heard Canadians say that Stephen Harper would be a liberal Democrat in the US, and Barack Obama an extreme right-winger in Canada, but it just isn't true. Harper would definitely be a moderate Republican in the US, same as how he is a moderate Conservative in Canada. True, there are some important/wedge issues in American politics that aren't at all discussed in Canada (abortion may be the main one), and true, the Canadian political spectrum does lie somewhat to the left -- however we define this -- of the American one, but the Conservative Party of Canada is still conservative, in the American sense.

If an issue comes close to the 1st or 2nd amendments down South, there tends to be a lot of hysteria and slippery-slopism, because there's an almost religious feeling about the Constitution. Up here, the argument is a little more balanced.
Americans are very individualistic, and consider individual rights to be paramount. This "religious feeling about the Constitution" you mention also does exist, probably because the Founding Fathers and their having build a perfect union is one of the founding myths of the American nation. Canadians may be said to be more communautarian and recognize more the existence of collective rights, inasmuch as it is possible to define Canadian identity. (Not to say that Canadians do not have some strange -- and often conflicting -- national myths.)

I love it that our comedy shows have a now established tradition of punking our politicians, right up to the Prime Minister.
To be honest, I don't believe this is especially Canadian. I think we could find this in most Western democratic societies.

I think our identity is exemplified by the background of our Governor General. She's a black immigrant woman from Haiti. And I'm very happy about that.
To be fair, the Governor General's role is to serve as a cheerleader for Canadian identity and culture. Paul Martin chose a black immigrant woman from Haiti for this job because he knew Canadians would have the same reaction as you, seeing how this pride in "multiculturalism" is an important part of how Canadians define themselves today. But could a black immigrant woman from Haiti be elected Prime Minister? I'm not so sure, not yet anyway.

Sunspace

11-11-2009, 01:43 PM

I Am Canadian! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRI-A3vakVg) The beer company that made that ad merged with Coors a couple of years ago, and all of a sudden the ads disappeared.For the record, ...Torontonians ...say "aboot."No. No, we don't. I live in Toronto and I've never said it. I wish people would stop saying this.

Cat Whisperer

11-11-2009, 01:48 PM

Okay, I'll happily adjust that to "Only Newfies say aboot." :)

Cat Whisperer

11-11-2009, 01:54 PM

<snip> (Not to say that Canadians do not have some strange -- and often conflicting -- national myths.)
<snip>
I read a book that puts this in perspective - Canada has regional myths, not national ones.

(The book was "It's The Regime, Stupid!: A Report from the Cowboy West on Why Stephen Harper Matters" (http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/books/Its-Regime-Stupid-Report-Cowboy-Barry-Cooper/9781554701568-item.html) - *there's* an interesting read if you want to get a peek into how western Canada differs from eastern Canada.)

BMada

11-11-2009, 01:56 PM

I Am Canadian! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRI-A3vakVg)
For the record, only Torontonians and Newfies say "aboot." The rest of us say "abowt." Eh.

that's news to me. I (a torontonian) say about the way it's supposed to be pronounced. Not aboot.

I think another thing we have going for us is the fact that we have more than two major political parties. I would hate to be an american and only have two real choices. Although I think our voting turnout isn't all that great.

BMada

11-11-2009, 02:03 PM

Indistinguishable

11-11-2009, 02:05 PM

The whole "aboot" thing is an erroneous description of the real phonological phenomenon of Canadian raising (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_raising) (the use of a more centered initial starting position in the diphthongs "aye" and "ow" when they precede unvoiced consonants as compared to otherwise (compare the vowels in "knife" vs. "knives", or "out" vs. "loud"); many Americans have the same phenomenon for the first but the not the second of these).

Cat Whisperer

11-11-2009, 02:10 PM

oh and this is on the "bad" side of our laws. well at least to me

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2009/11/03/chen-shoplifter.html

a known shoplifter gets tracked down and tied up and the storeowner gets charged for kidnapping (dropped now), concealed weapon and more. Where as the thief gets only 30days in jail. How exactly would you think US laws would play this out? Seems as if the criminals here have a free pass with this news story.
Well, there's definitely down side to Canada (I like to celebrate multiculturalism, but I consider Canadian to be a valid culture, too, not something to be dismissed), but this thread is about what makes us great.

Spoons

11-11-2009, 02:11 PM

I think it has been de-criminalized but still not technically legalized.No, it's still illegal. Controlled Drugs and Substances Act, s. 4(1) (http://laws.justice.gc.ca/eng/C-38.8/page-2.html#anchorbo-ga:l_I-gb:s_4)--note that marijuana is a Schedule II substance. The confusion over whether marijuana is decriminalized or not may come because possession under 30 g; or for resin, under 1 g; mandates a lesser punishment upon conviction that possession of larger amounts. But to the best of my knowledge, even a conviction for this small amount is still a criminal conviction. In other words, it's still criminalized.

Given this state of affairs, I would recommend users to not walk down the street smoking a joint; since while a cop might look the other way, there is also a chance that the cop just might get it into his or her head that you're breaking a law that is still on the books and decide to do something about it. I should add that the process of court appearances etc. can take a long while and be costly. More importantly, for our American friends, if you're arrested, and there is a chance you'd just up and leave Canada (which is a reasonable assumption to make if you're a tourist), bail will most likely be denied. Cat Whisperer has the right idea--for now, keep it private.

BMada

11-11-2009, 02:14 PM

I really do not want this to turn into a health care debate, but I wouldn't mind hearing about what you do and don't like about it.

This is the time to let your national pride shine!

bolded the part where my last post would be valid in the thread, assuming the "it" is canada and not our healthcare system.

otternell

11-11-2009, 02:29 PM

I have no problem with pros or cons about Canada, its healthcare system, wildlife etc. there are lots of great things about the US and like everything else there are bad things.

It does not have to be a one sided list of only the things that make Canada good.

Cat Whisperer

11-11-2009, 02:31 PM

Oh, okay. In that case, bring on the bad stuff!

(Spoons, I think the cops in Vancouver only hassle you if you don't share your weed. :D )

Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor

11-11-2009, 02:35 PM

Lately, Canada has been producing some pretty nice animation.
6Teen
Stoked
Total Drama Island.
To name a few.

BMada

11-11-2009, 02:39 PM

Battle of the Blades!

you make the call on if it's pro or con.

http://www.cbc.ca/programguide/program/battle_of_the_blades_hd

Mr. Moto

11-11-2009, 02:44 PM

I Am Canadian! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRI-A3vakVg)

My wife grew up in Plattsburgh - she was more familiar with this version. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1-XbZL7Lns&feature=related)

;)

Saintly Loser

11-11-2009, 02:52 PM

For the record, only Torontonians and Newfies say "aboot." The rest of us say "abowt."

I hear (from my wife, who is one) that Newfoundlanders really don't like that word ("Newfie", I mean, not "aboot"). I have never, though, heard her say "aboot".

EmAnJ

11-11-2009, 03:03 PM

Every Newfie that I've called a Newfie has never mentioned a problem with the term. They call themselves that, ffs!

Saintly Loser

11-11-2009, 03:06 PM

Every Newfie that I've called a Newfie has never mentioned a problem with the term. They call themselves that, ffs!

No doubt. I haven't spent that much time there over the years (my wife lives with me in the United States). But I have heard a number of them object to the word (and not only my in-laws).

Le Ministre de l'au-delà

11-11-2009, 03:06 PM

I said -
I love it that our comedy shows have a now established tradition of punking our politicians, right up to the Prime Minister. to which Hypnagogic Jerk responded

To be honest, I don't believe this is especially Canadian. I think we could find this in most Western democratic societies.

In terms of satire, parody, impressions - yes, shows like SNL and Spitting Image have a tradition of skewering politicians.

I believe Canada is unique in having shows like Air Farce, This Hour has 22 Minutes, the Rick Mercer Report and La Fin du monde est a 7 heures take on the actual politician up to and including the sitting Prime Minister. I stand to be corrected, but I don't think Bill Clinton, Al Gore or George W. Bush were ever 'cornered' at a press conference, conned into giving a 'celebrity headlock', going to Harvey's for a burger, putting into a water glass in the PMO's office, etc. by any of the American news parody shows. Yes, there was the time George W. Bush got tricked into gratefully accepting Jean Poutine's endorsement, but that was Rick Mercer and This Hour has 22 Minutes.

I say we have a different standard of of access to our politicians, and we expect them to be good natured when they end up surprised on camera.

Cat Whisperer

11-11-2009, 03:19 PM

Don't forget "Corner Gas" which had two Prime Ministers and a Governor General on it (Stephen Harper even lampooned himself (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVAKYsHo5-s)).

By the way, I kept that front page picture of PM Jean Chretien giving the "Shawinigan Handshake." What a mobster. :)

perfectparanoia

11-11-2009, 03:38 PM

I hear (from my wife, who is one) that Newfoundlanders really don't like that word ("Newfie", I mean, not "aboot"). I have never, though, heard her say "aboot".

My entire family are Newfs and they call the island 'Newfie' and the people 'Newfs.' Just my experience.

Thinking to both sides of the fam, none of them say 'aboot.' They say 'baat.' Could be regional...

(Luckily I was born in Torono. That's right, don't say the 't' and the last letter is pronounced with an 'o' not an 'a' as some report.)

Saintly Loser

11-11-2009, 03:53 PM

My entire family are Newfs and they call the island 'Newfie' and the people 'Newfs.' Just my experience.

Thinking to both sides of the fam, none of them say 'aboot.' They say 'baat.' Could be regional...

(Luckily I was born in Torono. That's right, don't say the 't' and the last letter is pronounced with an 'o' not an 'a' as some report.)

Never heard "Newfs."

Who knows, maybe it's a regional thing. My in-laws are from a particularly remote part of Newfoundland (where there is indeed a pronounced accent, to the point where I could barely understand some older people). Perhaps it's a leftover from times past, and in, say, St. John's, it's all forgotten. But it's not in their town.

Boyo Jim

11-11-2009, 04:21 PM

America makes Canada great! By comparison, I mean.

Fetchund

11-11-2009, 05:13 PM

Where I grew up (small town in southern Ontario) "aboot" was standard. That was a long time ago, though - and there were no TV stations to be had. I wonder if the language could shift that far from more outside influences?

From what I've heard, it is nearly impossible to emigrate to Canada, unless you have a rare and valuable skill. Which I certainly do not.

Boyo Jim

11-11-2009, 05:19 PM

Isn't being an American a rare and valuable skill?

RickJay

11-11-2009, 05:37 PM

From what I've heard, it is nearly impossible to emigrate to Canada, unless you have a rare and valuable skill. Which I certainly do not.
That's about as far from true as you can get. Canada is a very immigrant-dependent country, and I believe has a higher percentage of immigrants as its population than any other industrialized nation.

It certainly is easier to get in if you meet the requirements of an economic immigrant, but you dont need a "Rare or valuable skill." A young, educated, English-speaking person starts out with a lot of points right there.

Poysyn

11-11-2009, 05:38 PM

I am a prairie girl, and strenuously recommend this book -

http://www.amazon.com/Youre-Not-Prairie-David-Bouchard/dp/1895714664/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257982302&sr=8-1

I live in Winnipeg and I love it, although it certainly has it's downside. Currently we retain the dubious honors of being the Murder Capital of Canada and I think we are still the Car Theft Capital of Canada (keeping in mind it's per capita). I blame the Young Offenders Act - it pretty much gives most repeating young offenders no deterrent to continue committing crimes.

Now the good part...

I love our festivals. We have pretty much full summer weekends of local fairs and festivals to choose from and continue having fall suppers and community socials in the winter. There is so much to do, if you are inclined.

People are friendlier here. I don't know if it's something in the air, but we are generally smiley and kind to each other.

I would like to extend an invitation to come to the Festival du Voyageur. It's in February in Winnipeg, MB. This will give you the chance to see and experience some fo the good and the bad - a huge weeklong celebration of French Canadian culture and food and also Winnipeg in February.

:)

I don't have anything bad to say about our healthcare. I know that sometimes the wait can be long (especially for non-life-threatening problems), but having a six year old and a migraine problem, I have never had an issue with it - when my daughter was born it became necessary to have a c-section. I shudder to think what my bill would've been if I had to pay for the care I received.

Mindfield

11-11-2009, 05:49 PM

I've never heard anyone from Toronto say "aboot," and I've lived here all my life. But every Newf I've ever met refers to themselves that way; they seem to be good natured about it. They're Newfs, they know they're Newfs, and they've proud of being Newfs. They're the only ones I know of who have a pronounced accent that isn't the result of French being their first language.

That said, I don't know that I think Canada is particularly great, but never having spent any significant amount of time anywhere else I don't really have much basis for comparison. I appreciate our health care system, though we do pay for it in other ways. Our politics is relatively bland; no massive controversies (the biggest in recent memory seems to have been the sponsorship scandal a few years back during the Cretien administration, though Cretien himself was the butt of no few jokes, especially late in his administration, mostly for his gaffes and his accent, especially the way he said "pooblicitee") and our sociopolitical makeup is fairly tame; we're not quite so gung ho over politics I think.

We're very strict with guns, and lacking any Canadian form of NRA or constitutional right to bear arms, we don't have any sort of "gun culture," which suits me fine. Canada does have a great deal of gorgeous scenery, though I'm a born-and-bred city slicker so I prefer the bright lights and 24-hour activity. :) On the whole we Canadians are a friendly and accommodating bunch.

I dunno. It's hard to say what's so great about it when you take most of it for granted. It's a nice place though. And we have good beer. :)

notfrommensa

11-11-2009, 10:09 PM

What are the immigration laws going to Canada from the USA?

Would it be easier for someone whose Mother was born in Canada?

Cerowyn

11-11-2009, 10:44 PM

What are the immigration laws going to Canada from the USA?

Would it be easier for someone whose Mother was born in Canada?There are several different ways to apply (http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/index.asp) for Canada, depending on the situation that most closely describes your own.

For the child of a Canadian citizen, it appears that you are deemed Canadian automatically. Per Wikipedia's article:Bill C-37[4] came into effect on 17 April 2009, which changed the rules for Canadian citizenship. All individuals born outside Canada in the first generation born abroad to a parent who was a Canadian citizen at the time of the birth, are automatically recognized as Canadian citizens (retroactive to date of birth or date citizenship was lost) if the parent was born in Canada, or if the parent became a Canadian citizen, that is, by immigrating to Canada and being granted citizenship through naturalization.[4] The second generation born abroad can only gain Canadian citizenship by immigrating to Canada; this can be done by their Canadian citizen parents sponsoring them as dependent children, a category with fewer requirements, which would also take less time than most other immigration application categories.

Muffin

11-11-2009, 10:59 PM

I already have the canoe and a kayak
(That area looked too tame and populated for me... Upper Wisconsin, Michigan and Minnesota are prettier)
aaahhh frolic! The frolicking you got going on sounds divine!

I am in Iowa (hangs head in shame) and you do not frolic in our rivers/streams unless you want to take a bleach bath when you get home. Pretty yucky stuff down here, comes from all that agricultural run-off, I believe. Hubby canoed in WI (Kickapoo River) last year with his buddies and talked on and on about how clear the water was. (soo jealous!)

If you like canoeing and kayaking, and think the UP, Wisconsin and Minnesota are pretty, then Ontario will blow your socks off. The drive along the North Shore of Superior is truly lovely (and I’m lucky enough that I get to drive about half way along it tomorrow and back again on Friday). There is a great expanse of terrific paddling country here in Ontario where you can go for weeks without coming across anyone (http://my.tbaytel.net/culpeper/KattawagamiRiver.html). Rivers, small and large lakes, and even the Arctic Ocean – it’s all here in Ontar-i-ar-i-ar-i-o. And better yet, Ontario is just one patch of a huge country in which each region has equally wonderful but very different features.

A Monkey With a Gun

11-11-2009, 11:01 PM

What I want to know about Canada is why everything is "A" this and "A" that. "How you doing, A?" "Bit cold outside, A".

It's like every other letter in Canada is "A".

sorry, I'll move along now

Muffin

11-11-2009, 11:03 PM

If you get the chance, watch a few episodes of the Red Green Show. It says it all about being a Canadian.

Cat Whisperer

11-12-2009, 12:19 AM

Actually, I though "Corner Gas" said it all about being a Canadian. ;)

Sunspace

11-12-2009, 01:01 AM

If you get the chance, watch a few episodes of the Red Green Show. It says it all about being a Canadian.The scary thing is, I know people like that. :)

otternell

11-12-2009, 07:50 AM

There is a great expanse of terrific paddling country here in Ontario where you can go for weeks without coming across anyone (http://my.tbaytel.net/culpeper/KattawagamiRiver.html). Rivers, small and large lakes, and even the Arctic Ocean – it’s all here in Ontar-i-ar-i-ar-i-o. And better yet, Ontario is just one patch of a huge country in which each region has equally wonderful but very different features.

now that's what I am talkin' about! Where the cell phone can't be relied upon, and you better have what you need, cause its a long way back!

We really enjoyed Eagle Lake, we went to several campgrounds which were exactly the way they are here, but finally we found a campground on the lake shore that was totally unoccupied! At that time, we didn't have our canoe, now we would definitely do things differently!

An Gadaí

11-12-2009, 09:10 AM

Things I like about Canada:

Trailer Park Boys
Corner Gas
Da Vinci's Inquest
The Beachcombers
Danger Bay

Anonymous Coward

11-12-2009, 10:10 AM

I'm in Prince Edward Island, Canada's smallest province. I'm speaking of someone who's from Charlottetown, PEI's capital city with a whopping population of 58,000.

Click here (http://maps.google.ca/?ie=UTF8&ll=46.225453,-63.50647&spn=3.108675,8.453979&t=h&z=8) for a map, and here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Edward_Island) for the Wikipedia entry.

The entire province has a population of about 130,000 people, which doubles during the summer tourist season. What I like about it here is that the whole province has a small town feel to it.

Of course, this is the downside as well. Specialty shops are uncommon, so I need to order online for things like a certain brand of saw blade or a specific brand of BBQ equipment. Big name concerts rarely hit us, so we usually end up driving to Moncton (2 hours) or Halifax (4 hours).

The Island currently has a doctor shortage, which means quite a few people don't have a full time family doctor. However there are clinics run every day around town where you can see a doctor (free of charge of course) if you don't mind waiting in line for an hour or two. Even if you have a family doctor you usually just can't just drop in. For a physical you need to book it months in advance, and my doctor's nurse is especially annoying as she takes her phone off the hook for hours at a time so you can't book appointments. I now only use my family doc for ongoing issues and physicals, and if I need an antibiotic I go to a walk-in clinic. That said, I can't count the number of times I have just dropped in and gotten same day service.

Still, I love it here. I was "away" for 7 years but for 5 of those I was looking for a way to come home.

Attack from the 3rd dimension

11-12-2009, 12:29 PM

Disclosure: Grew up in US, came North as an adult, now a Canuck.

Things that make Canada a great country:
- Decentralization that makes 'States Rights' proponents look like Federalists, but cooperation on the important stuff.

- Multiple political parties hamstring the government, such that decision making is pretty slow - this is usually good.

-Multiculturalism. The only places in the US that have a similar range to most of Canada would be Hawai'i and SoCal. Newfoundland would again be an exception to this rule, most people there are descended from Irish or English. Around MUN (the big university) you get a smattering of Chinese or African students - usually wearing parkas in the summer - as well as some people in healthcare who are of more diverse ancestry.

- Very liberal politics - In my opinion, the entire range of mainstream Canadian politics would fit comfortably within the Democratic tent. Even Harper would fit in as a Boll Weevil or Blue Dog Democrat (and I say this as a Yellow Dog).

- Very cautious approach to international affairs. Canada sat out Iraq and Viet Nam (mention this to Ann Coulter if you see her) but joined in for WW 1, 2, Korea and Afghanistan.

- Strong regional identities - Newfoundland is much more like a separate country relative to BC than, for example, North Carolina and California.
- Gun control
- Health care

Some downsides include:
-Weak national identity - Canadians spend a lot of time asking "What does it mean to be Canadian-aside from not being an American."
-Very limited surfing.
-The weather in Newfoundland. By the way, ''aboot" is not common there - I don't know if it is common on the mainland.

Here in Vancouver you can walk down the street toking up, or at least, people do. I'm not sure what it would take to bestir a cop to actually do something about it.

fubbleskag

11-12-2009, 12:34 PM

Things I like about Canada:

Trailer Park Boys
Corner Gas
Da Vinci's Inquest
The Beachcombers
Danger Bay

you're so old

Cat Whisperer

11-12-2009, 12:35 PM

Things I like about Canada:

Trailer Park Boys
Corner Gas
Da Vinci's Inquest
The Beachcombers
Danger Bay
What, Littlest Hobo isn't good enough for ya?

Attack from the 3rd dimension

11-12-2009, 12:41 PM

Every Newfie that I've called a Newfie has never mentioned a problem with the term. They call themselves that, ffs!

My lovely and talented spouse, Ms. Attack is from Newfoundland. Newfie is somewhat like the other N-word. If you are one, you can use it. If you aren't one, you should use it with extreme care or not at all. I might point out that the other N-word is commonly used by black people, but probably not used so much by their white friends.

In Hawai'i, people of European ancestry are commonly referred to as 'Haoles'. If you're a Haole, you can use it. If someone who is not a haole uses it, it is assumed to be an insult, so even "hey, haole!" is fighting words. Newfie is similar, but Newfoundlanders are generally really nice, really easygoing people, and tend to blow it off, or gently explain appropriate usage rather than to kick the shit out of tourists.

I don't use it. I use Newfun-LANDer, but hey, I'm at best a Mainlander.

An Gadaí

11-12-2009, 01:08 PM

you're so old

28 this coming Sunday. I suppose I am so old. :(

AskNott

11-12-2009, 01:19 PM

It's gotta be the geese.

fubbleskag

11-12-2009, 01:33 PM

28 this coming Sunday. I suppose I am so old. :(awww :(

so you mean, they actually play beachcombers reruns somewhere?

Spoons

11-12-2009, 01:38 PM

- Decentralization that makes 'States Rights' proponents look like Federalists, but cooperation on the important stuff.Thing is, federal and provincial responsibilities are spelled out quite clearly in the Constitution--we don't have an unless-otherwise-specified clause like the Tenth Amendment to the US Constitution in ours. We've quibbled over who looks after what through our history, and we still do sometimes; but it's often very plain when the feds step on the provinces' toes, and vice-versa. It may not be so much "decentralization," (though that certainly is the result) as it was good advance planning for a federated system when the Constitution was first drafted.

Attack from the 3rd dimension

11-12-2009, 01:41 PM

Thing is, federal and provincial responsibilities are spelled out quite clearly in the Constitution--we don't have an unless-otherwise-specified clause like the Tenth Amendment to the US Constitution in ours. We've quibbled over who looks after what through our history, and we still do sometimes; but it's often very plain when the feds step on the provinces' toes, and vice-versa. It may not be so much "decentralization," (though that certainly is the result) as it was good advance planning for a federated system when the Constitution was first drafted.

That's what I find interesting. The Constitution is written as a decentralized multi-mini-state plan, but the US is very centralized and driven from the capital. Canada is descended from a monarchical state, but is relatively decentralized.

wolfstu

11-12-2009, 01:56 PM

Thing is, federal and provincial responsibilities are spelled out quite clearly in the Constitution--we don't have an unless-otherwise-specified clause like the Tenth Amendment to the US Constitution in ours. Well, actually ( http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/const/3.html#codese:91): (http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/const/3.html#codese:91) It shall be lawful for the Queen, by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate and House of Commons, to make Laws for the Peace, Order, and good Government of Canada, in relation to all Matters not coming within the Classes of Subjects by this Act assigned exclusively to the Legislatures of the Provinces;In other words, the federal government can exercise jurisdiction over any and every thing not explicitly listed as being under provincial jurisdiction. So we do have an 'unless specified' clause, but it has the opposite effect to the US version (the tenth amendment) which gives unspecified powers to the states.

Spoons

11-12-2009, 01:59 PM

That's what I find interesting. The Constitution is written as a decentralized multi-mini-state plan, but the US is very centralized and driven from the capital. Canada is descended from a monarchical state, but is relatively decentralized.I find it interesting too. Why did things work out the way they did? I'm not sure, but I wouldn't be surprised if the US was examined by the British lawmakers who drafted our Constitution (then known as the British North America Act and passed as an act of the UK Parliament). They probably noticed that a set of smaller jurisdictions (states or provinces) joined together in a federation provided a good way to look after more local matters in a geographically-large area; but that in order to avoid some of the squabbles over who does what--like the US Civil War, which ended only a few years prior to the passing of the BNA Act--it might be best to spell each body's responsibilities out. I don't know for sure if the US and its Constitution was used as a model, but it would make sense.

Grey

11-12-2009, 02:00 PM

Even odder is the fact that the BNA was designed for a stronger federal government when compared to the US. Remember the American Civil War had just ended when Confederation was being framed.

Or what Spoons said. :)

Cat Whisperer

11-12-2009, 02:01 PM

<snip>
Some downsides include:
-Weak national identity - Canadians spend a lot of time asking "What does it mean to be Canadian-aside from not being an American." <snip>I feel much better since I gave up trying to have a Canadian one that simply didn't fit and realized that our regional ones are just fine.

Here in Vancouver you can walk down the street toking up, or at least, people do. I'm not sure what it would take to bestir a cop to actually do something about it.
Like I said earlier, don't offer to share. :)

rivulus

11-12-2009, 03:20 PM

Disclosure: Grew up in US, came North as an adult, now a Canuck.

Things that make Canada a great country:
- Decentralization that makes 'States Rights' proponents look like Federalists, but cooperation on the important stuff.

- Multiple political parties hamstring the government, such that decision making is pretty slow - this is usually good.

-Multiculturalism. The only places in the US that have a similar range to most of Canada would be Hawai'i and SoCal. Newfoundland would again be an exception to this rule, most people there are descended from Irish or English. Around MUN (the big university) you get a smattering of Chinese or African students - usually wearing parkas in the summer - as well as some people in healthcare who are of more diverse ancestry.

- Very liberal politics - In my opinion, the entire range of mainstream Canadian politics would fit comfortably within the Democratic tent. Even Harper would fit in as a Boll Weevil or Blue Dog Democrat (and I say this as a Yellow Dog).

- Very cautious approach to international affairs. Canada sat out Iraq and Viet Nam (mention this to Ann Coulter if you see her) but joined in for WW 1, 2, Korea and Afghanistan.

- Strong regional identities - Newfoundland is much more like a separate country relative to BC than, for example, North Carolina and California.
- Gun control
- Health care

My disclosure: Grew up in Canada, came south after college, now live in the US. My parents and brother (and his family) still live up in Saskatoon.

I would agree with all the above and add:

More of a live and let live attitude in Canada
Less tolerance for fundy religious moralizing/legislating
Gay marriage (an outshoot of points 1 and 2, I think)
Better maternity and other leave
OK, I know you (and others) already mentioned health care but... health care dammit!

BMada

11-12-2009, 03:27 PM

What I want to know about Canada is why everything is "A" this and "A" that. "How you doing, A?" "Bit cold outside, A".

It's like every other letter in Canada is "A".

sorry, I'll move along now

we came up with the name Canada like so,

C A?
N A?
D A?

blinkie

11-12-2009, 03:34 PM

When they look south they see Maine not Mississippi.

mnemosyne

11-12-2009, 04:15 PM

... and we even get CBC on the TV.

the CBC. You get the CBC on TV. If you're gonna claim to be like us, you still have a long way to go! :D

Saintly Loser

11-12-2009, 09:19 PM

My lovely and talented spouse, Ms. Attack is from Newfoundland. Newfie is somewhat like the other N-word. If you are one, you can use it. If you aren't one, you should use it with extreme care or not at all.

That's exactly how it was explained to me by my (also lovely and talented) spouse, who is also from Newfoundland.

gonzomax

11-12-2009, 10:15 PM

Da Vincis Inquest was based on a real Canadian cop. He now is pushing hard for legalization of drugs, all drugs. Police sometimes figure things out correctly.
Canadians do say aboot. But the best word is "organization". It is a dead giveaway.
I have lots of Canadian friends and relatives. They laugh at our medical insurance system and wonder why we are so stupid as to allow that crap to happen. It gives them an air of superiority that they don't mind showing when it comes up.
They have better beer . Canadian women have bigger boobs. (personal observation). They drive well over the speed limit.

Spoons

11-12-2009, 10:41 PM

Less tolerance for fundy religious moralizing/legislatingTrue, but I'd suggest that in Canada, it is not so much "freedom from religion" as the First Amendment to the US Constitution is often interpreted (rightly or wrongly); as "freedom of conscience and religion," as is stated at s. 2(a) of our Constitution. Emphasis mine in both cases, BTW.

The American approach seems to give rise to a number of disagreements. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion..." reads the First Amendment, and while we have seen such issues as school prayer settled, we have also seen arguments over whether "In God We Trust" should be on US currency, and whether "one nation under God" should be in the American Pledge of Allegiance. Those advocating the removal of such phrases often argue "freedom from religion" as their rationale; which, given the wording of the First Amendment, is a perfectly reasonable approach. (Emphasis added again.) Those advocating for the retention of such phrases point to more traditionalist approaches. Either way, what's being argued is a phrase on dollar bills, something schoolchildren say, or a sculpture on a courthouse lawn. The question arises: just what does the existence of such things mean to the average American in day-to-day terms? How are the average American's beliefs (or lack of them) compromised (or enhanced) by the existence (or not) of such things?

"Freedom of conscience and religion" is interpreted in more practical terms in Canada. It has been used to allow Orthodox Jewish furriers and grocers to open their stores on Sundays, to allow Sikhs and other whose religion requires them to wear special headgear to become police officers, and to allow a number of other practices that accommodate the people that make up Canada's multicultural mosaic. Parliament can still open its sessions with a prayer (it really does), but does not require members' attendance at such times. Nobody thinks anything of the members of Parliament who don't attend because--guess what?--the members who choose not to attend (and even those who do) are exercising their Charter rights according to their conscience. Remember, "of" not "from."

It is true that we recognize and mention God in the preamble to our Charter ("Whereas Canada is founded upon principles that recognize the supremacy of God and the rule of law"), but few are lobbying to get rid of it because, let's face it, the meat of the matter (which doesn't mention God and in which God doesn't factor anyway) is contained further down in the document. Nobody cares what the Charter's Preamble says when the police are at the door without a search warrant--the rights granted by s. 8 of the Charter grant the occupant the right to tell the police to get lost, God or no God. In other words, it seems to me that we tend to look at things more practically, rather than philosophically.

Overall, I'd suggest that we have less tolerance for religious, or other, extremism, as with fundamentalists; and more tolerance for other customs, religions, and points of view. In the end, we tolerate and accommodate each other, warts (and religion) and all. I'd suggest, in reference to the OP, that's another thing that makes us great.

BMada

11-12-2009, 11:06 PM

Canadians do say aboot. But the best word is "organization". It is a dead giveaway.

seriously where do these Canadians come from exactly that say "aboot", I really would like to know and hear it for myself.

and how do these said canadians pronounce "organization"?

I pronounce it OR-ga-nee-zay-shun or Or-ga-neye-zay-shun. No real and set way I say it, depends on the speed of speech. Like the toronto maple leafs are an oR-gan-ee-zay-shun that is inept. and The Or-gan-eye-zay-shun that runs the maple leafs are retarded jackasses.

from http://www.yourdictionary.com/organization

there are 2 ways of saying it.

or·gani·za·tion (ôr′gə ni zā′s̸hən, -nī-)

so i doubt that there's a "proper" way to say it.

Indistinguishable

11-12-2009, 11:10 PM

seriously where do these Canadians come from exactly that say "aboot", I really would like to know and hear it for myself.
I explained it above, but no one seems to have noticed, so I'll requote it:

The whole "aboot" thing is an erroneous description of the real phonological phenomenon of Canadian raising (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_raising) (the use of a more centered initial starting position in the diphthongs "aye" and "ow" when they precede unvoiced consonants as compared to otherwise (compare the vowels in "knife" vs. "knives", or "out" vs. "loud"); many Americans have the same phenomenon for the first but the not the second of these).

If you want to hear examples, try here (http://www.yorku.ca/twainweb/troberts/raising.html)

BMada

11-12-2009, 11:29 PM

I know for a fact that I pronounce "toronto" as traw-na

If i was speaking that'll most likely be my pronunciation of toronto.

However if someone were to ask me where I am from it'll most definitely be Toe-ron-toe, on-tare-ee-oh.

The stuff you linked to hear pretty much sounded normal, "about the house" sounds like about the house, not aboot the house. That's what baffles me. There is no "oo" sound.

Indistinguishable

11-12-2009, 11:47 PM

I know it's not an "oo" sound. That's why I labelled "aboot" as an erroneous description of the phenomenon. But the linked pronunciation of "about the house" is an initially-raised diphthong as compared to a typical American pronunciation of the phrase, or even to the same Canadian speakers' pronunciations of the vowels in "aloud the cows" or "a bow the how" or whatever (as illustrated by the difference in vowel quality between the linked pronunciations of "lout" and "loud"). There is a genuine phonological contrast here.

BMada

11-12-2009, 11:50 PM

i guess i need to find links to american pronunciation to have a comparison. Because there is no way for me to hear the difference.

Let the pros and cons continue, ignore my little rant on "aboot".

Indistinguishable

11-13-2009, 12:04 AM

Well, if you yourself are Canadian with full Canadian raising as an accent feature, consider whether there is a vowel quality difference in the pronunciations you would use for, say, "how sad" as opposed to "house ad". Or whether "rowdy" fails to rhyme exactly with "outie". If you can notice a slight difference between the qualities of the "ow" vowels in these contrasting cases, that's Canadian raising on "ow", and that's what Americans typically don't do (they use the "how sad"/"rowdy" vowel realization in all cases, even before voiceless consonants), although many Americans do at least share the analogous phenomenon for the vowel "aye".

Cat Whisperer

11-13-2009, 12:11 AM

I would say it is less a tolerance of religious differences than the belief that religion is a private matter. I don't know the religion of any of the people in my life beyond my immediate family and friends, and I don't ask. I certainly don't know the religion of my political leaders, doctors, dentists, bosses, etc.

Hypnagogic Jerk

11-13-2009, 01:25 AM

As a Canuck working in the states here's some things i've noticed: Seems like cultures in the states are accepted but not celebrated. There's a difference. Multiculturalism (a dirty word it seems amongst some conservatives) IMHO is embraced and celebrated in Canada.
There are some American cultures that are significantly different from the "norm"; the black and Latino cultures being good examples. It is true that white Americans, while they seem to be attached to their ethnic identifiers, have mostly subsumed their identity into the generic American. This said, while I know this thread is about "what makes Canada great", I'll say that I don't understand in which ways Canadians can be said to embrace or celebrate multiculturalism in a meaningful way. Sure, we all like to have people from many different countries, speaking different languages at home and eating different foods, contributing to our country, but that's just because it makes us feel open-minded. This acceptance and "celebration" stops when we start feeling not at home anymore in our country, just like it does everywhere else, and I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing.

For instance, we don't use the Liberal label the same way it's used in the states.
This much is true. I saw quite a few political ads in the last few weeks because of special elections in the US, and one of them was attacking the opposing candidate as "support Nancy Pelosi's liberal agenda". Why should I think this is a bad thing?

Well, there's definitely down side to Canada (I like to celebrate multiculturalism, but I consider Canadian to be a valid culture, too, not something to be dismissed), but this thread is about what makes us great.
Well, as you yourself said, there is not really any single Canadian identity and culture. But yes, our various identities are valid.

I believe Canada is unique in having shows like Air Farce, This Hour has 22 Minutes, the Rick Mercer Report and La Fin du monde est a 7 heures take on the actual politician up to and including the sitting Prime Minister. I stand to be corrected, but I don't think Bill Clinton, Al Gore or George W. Bush were ever 'cornered' at a press conference, conned into giving a 'celebrity headlock', going to Harvey's for a burger, putting into a water glass in the PMO's office, etc. by any of the American news parody shows.
So you mean having comedians "surprise" politicians? Yes, I agree it's been done here, and for now I can't think of anything equivalent in the US. A comedian like Stephen Colbert often has politicians on his show, but in his case they've agreed to meet him beforehand. I can't say anything about other countries though.

FTR, [i]La Fin du monde est à sept heures was cancelled in 2000, but I note that it featured Jean-René Dufort whose current show, Infoman, is famous for doing this very thing you're describing.

Well, if you yourself are Canadian with full Canadian raising as an accent feature, consider whether there is a vowel quality difference in the pronunciations you would use for, say, "how sad" as opposed to "house ad". Or whether "rowdy" fails to rhyme exactly with "outie".
You know, I don't believe I differentiate between these vowels. I'd probably need someone to listen to me to confirm though. English isn't my first language, so it's entirely possible that I sound American rather than Canadian.

gonzomax

11-13-2009, 10:41 AM

They say eye . Like organ eye zation.

Attack from the 3rd dimension

11-13-2009, 11:30 AM

That's exactly how it was explained to me by my (also lovely and talented) spouse, who is also from Newfoundland.

This makes you one of the two luckiest men on the Dope.

Ice Cream Man

11-13-2009, 11:52 AM

Larry Mudd

11-13-2009, 03:21 PM

The stuff you linked to hear pretty much sounded normal, "about the house" sounds like about the house, not aboot the house. That's what baffles me. There is no "oo" sound.This feature of Canadian pronunciation is called "Canadian raising." Nobody actually says "aboot," this is just the crude approximation of someone for whom the dialect is altogether foreign.

What they're actually on about is the way we tend to "raise" diphthongs slightly when they are followed by unvoiced consonants. This is a pretty subtle thing, and it is (very crudely) approximated by actually replacing the vowel sound with another, higher vowel sound.

Malthus

11-13-2009, 03:35 PM

Concerning the Canadian "about", I think it's definitely something that we do but don't/can't notice.

I grew up outside of Toronto and when I was in high school I went on a school trip to California. When we were in San Diego we stayed with various families from a school that we had paired up with. My friend and I happened to stay with a Korean family.

They had broken and thickly accented English and had never heard any stereotypes concerning Canadian accents. One of the first times I said "about" in a sentence they started laughing. They said I pronounced it oddly. My friend as well. Same thing for "house", "couch", "mouse", etc.

My friend and I could not for the life of us figure out how we were saying it any differently than Americans do to but they insisted it sounded like "aboot". We ended up telling them about the whole "aboot" thing and how Americans often claim that's how we pronounce things; that it was an established belief.

Before that event, I always assumed that the "aboot" stereotype was just a joke and that we didn't pronounce it any differently. Afterwards, I believe that we do pronounce it differently but just can't tell the difference for some reason.

I had a girlfriend from California (long ago), who found my Canadian pronouciation endlessly amusing. (I found her California accent both amusing and sexy, but that's another story ...).

Seemed to me that Californians had a tendancy to elongate or drawl their vowels (not sure if that is the linguistic term or not) - an exaggeration for "about the house": "abaaaaut the haaaause"; to her, I'd sound almost Scottish: "aboot the hoose". Again, an exaggeration of the difference, which is really more of a tendancy towards "aboot"-ness if you will than full-on saying "aboot".

Muffin

11-13-2009, 05:34 PM

I could not "hear" aboot (I'm a Canadian), but my American friends could. After being stumped for a few years, I finally figured out how to recoginize the difference. One day I came across a clip of Nancy Grace on the internet -- a one woman perfect storm of ignorance, offensiveness, and the most hideous accent I had ever heard. I figured that if I imitated her accent, I might then be able to hear the difference between it an my usual Canadian accent. Once I was thoroughly used to using her accent, I then tried comparing it to how I usually spoke. That's when I was first able to hear "aboot".

BMada

11-13-2009, 05:46 PM

trupa

11-13-2009, 05:49 PM

I find it amusingly paradoxical that the OP is asking Canadians what they think is great about our country, when being self-effacing is such a defining element of the Canadian psyche. It's actually difficult for many of us to say that something about us is "great". I find there is an element of striving for "good enough" & "pretty good" as opposed to trying to "be the best" in Canadians' way of thinking. Canadians are not very tolerant of people who are proud of themselves for some achievement, even justifiably (think tall poppy syndrome) . We don't really appreciate our artists and athletes until they're successful in another country, as if success at home isn't really a proof of excellence (except in hockey) We tend to shun risk and love compromise.

On other topics in this thread, the greatest feature I appreciate about my country is, actually, the health care system. I'm married to an oncologist, so I get kind of an inside view. Philosophically and politically, I sometimes feel I would be more comfortable in the US. But the health-care keeps me here. Yes there are some access problems, mostly for diagnostic imaging, getting a family doc, and elective procedures. The coming demographic crunch of ageing boomers will be a big problem. But urgent care and grave illness care is available to all in a timely fashion. My wife refused to contemplate practising in a setting where she could not offer the latest treatment to a patient because of financial considerations, so we staid here.

As a rare Canadian hand gun owner & recreational shooter, I do feel a bit persecuted, and I hide this part of my life from most acquaintances. I don't mind the licensing and screening so much, but it's the constant fear of confiscation every time there's an election that more fatiguing, along with some of the sillier laws; for example, it's technically illegal for me to stop at a restaurant and eat a meal on the way back from the range, even if the gun is locked in a metal box and locked in my car trunk.

Oops, gotta run, my son is awake.

BMada

11-13-2009, 05:55 PM

. My wife refused to contemplate practising in a setting where she could not offer the latest treatment to a patient because of financial considerations, so we staid here.

If i were a doctor that would be a concern too, don't all doctors take the Hippocratic Oath? how does that affect american doctors? beats me, im not a doctor nor do i know the oath by heart. Seems like a conflict of interests to me, the american health care system that is.

Chefguy

11-13-2009, 06:01 PM

I'm not Canadian and haven't read the whole thread, but I can tell you that a drive through British Columbia and into the Yukon Territory on the Alaska Highway has no equal in the U.S.

Cat Whisperer

11-13-2009, 06:05 PM

trupa, I'm currently reading a book on the narcissism epidemic in the world, and it is much worse in the US than it is in Canada for just the reasons you have stated; we are happy with compromise and being good enough. You could make an excellent argument that the worldwide global collapse can be laid at the feet of American narcissism (you can also argue that the American reluctance to take the blame for it can also be traced back to that same cause).

Le Ministre de l'au-delà

11-13-2009, 06:08 PM

As a rare Canadian hand gun owner & recreational shooter, I do feel a bit persecuted, and I hide this part of my life from most acquaintances. I don't mind the licensing and screening so much, but it's the constant fear of confiscation every time there's an election that more fatiguing, along with some of the sillier laws; for example, it's technically illegal for me to stop at a restaurant and eat a meal on the way back from the range, even if the gun is locked in a metal box and locked in my car trunk.

An even stranger aspect of our gun control laws is that all of these rules and regulations apply to replicas as well as real guns. Many of my friends who work in theatre and film (some of whom are about as leftist as you can get) have also had to go through the screening and registration process in order to be allowed to carve bits of two by four to look like handguns!

And I remember being trained for a production in Banff in '95 where the gun wrangler just shrugged - he had long ago learned that he was best off to have someone drive with him from Calgary to Banff in a separate van, because he never knew from one visit to the next what all he would be allowed to take into the National Park.

Muffin

11-13-2009, 06:10 PM

nancy grace clip like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtWNVxnmG_4 ???

that is not "proper" pronunciation to me, that's southern drawl. There is in no way in hell that her way is the "real" way of pronunciation. That southern drawl of hers is noticeable.

But that's just the point. Her extreme accent was so different from my accent that I could actually tell the difference, whereas the difference between my accent and that of someone just a few miles away across the border is so subtle that I was unable to hear the difference. Having finally figured it out with the help of extremely different accents, I can now hear the difference locally despite the difference not being so big.

lexi

11-13-2009, 08:13 PM

We don't really appreciate our artists and athletes until they're successful in another country, as if success at home isn't really a proof of excellence (except in hockey).
I thought it was the other way around, look at the love for the Tragically Hip & hate for Celine Dion. Once someone becomes famous state side - it is almost as if they are traitors to the country.

But perhaps that is part of the left & right debate of us Canadians - I heard it once that left wing Canadians love CBC for its diverse range of programming & its Canadian content, and think Don Cherry is a joke. Right wing Canadians, hate the CBC and think all its cultural programming is a joke and love Don Cherry. Both watch Hockey Night in Canada though.

Muffin

11-13-2009, 08:26 PM

What's great about Canada? The skiing.

mnemosyne

11-13-2009, 09:00 PM

We don't really appreciate our artists and athletes until they're successful in another country, as if success at home isn't really a proof of excellence (except in hockey).

There's the answer. What makes Canada great? Wayne Gretzky!

I live in Montreal, and I have to say that I think Québec contributes to making Canada great. Some would say that it also causes a heck of a lot of trouble, but having a large amount of the population speak a completely different language and identify with a very different culture, and yet have it (mostly) work within the framework of the rest of the country...that's pretty cool. It just adds another level of diversity to the country and forces us to face the challenges of cooperation, tolerance, patience, and rhetoric! I think it's a large part of why Canadians are, as some people have already said, less extreme in their views or perhaps more willing to compromise...because that's been a part of how the country came about.

I have no idea if I'm expressing what I'm trying to say in that paragraph. :dubious:

I hear the "aboot" in the accents of Westerners...the couple of Albertans I know seem to do this Canadian Raising thing, at least to my ear. But then again, I am tone deaf.

Sunspace

11-13-2009, 09:23 PM

I like Canada because I have a app on my iPhone that lets me watch National Film Board/Office national du film cartoons. :)

RickJay

11-13-2009, 09:58 PM

The difference between the Canadian and "middle American" accents starts to become apparent if you spend a lot of time in both places. I never noticed it before that, but eventually it became pretty obvious.

Nancy Grace is a Southerner, but if you toned her drawl down a bit you'd have a Kansan or someone from upstate Indiana. It's very striking once you're used to listening for it. To me, as a Canadian, it sounds as if our accent is very clipped, shortening dipthongs to single vowels (I actually had the parents of an American girlfriend tell me "you're not speaking English correctly, you're not sounding your dipthongs") while the mid-American accent sounds as if the vowels are being exaggerrated and added to.

I like listening to U.S. weather reporters in the winter; they keep telling me about how we'll be expecting "sneaow." That's how "snow" sounds to me when someone from St. Louis says it. It's fun to listen for the differences once you're used to it.

Hypnagogic Jerk

11-13-2009, 10:12 PM

I live in Montreal, and I have to say that I think Québec contributes to making Canada great. Some would say that it also causes a heck of a lot of trouble, but having a large amount of the population speak a completely different language and identify with a very different culture, and yet have it (mostly) work within the framework of the rest of the country...that's pretty cool.
I dunno, I think Switzerland's doing that much better, and they've got three cantonal-level majority languages plus an indigenous language. Maybe it's because they've got more of a common culture with shared national myths, or maybe it's because the country is more decentralized with language being solely a cantonal responsibility. Clearly they're doing something right anyway.

It just adds another level of diversity to the country and forces us to face the challenges of cooperation, tolerance, patience, and rhetoric!
What I'd like is for my English-speaking (or English-integrated) compatriots to tell me once and for all what it is that they expect from us. Because what I get from them is a mix of your current attitude (praising this language duality as one of the things that supposedly makes Canada such a great diverse country, despite the fact that the French-speaking and English-speaking sides do not know and mostly do not care what the other side is doing, which isn't exactly what I'd call diversity) and the attitude that French-speakers in Quebec are responsible for all of Canada's woes and are racist, ethnocentric, incompetent and, it almost seems, all-around evil. As far as I'm concerned, English Canada is a beast with two heads: one who wants to claim me for its purposes and fit me into a mold without even knowing anything about me, and one who wants to blame me for all of our defects. So I want to know: what it is that you want me to do?

Maybe this isn't appropriate for a thread about what makes Canada great.

trupa

11-13-2009, 10:27 PM

I thought it was the other way around, look at the love for the Tragically Hip & hate for Celine Dion. Once someone becomes famous state side - it is almost as if they are traitors to the country.

But perhaps that is part of the left & right debate of us Canadians - I heard it once that left wing Canadians love CBC for its diverse range of programming & its Canadian content, and think Don Cherry is a joke. Right wing Canadians, hate the CBC and think all its cultural programming is a joke and love Don Cherry. Both watch Hockey Night in Canada though.

Here I will confess that I am unsure if my perspective is more representative of Canada as a whole, or more typical of French Canadians / Quebecers, since I grew up in French in Montreal. For example, Celine Dion was only one of a bunch of former child pop-stars (think Rene Simard and his little sister Natalie - I never got this fascination with kid pop stars to begin with). It was only when Celine made it big in the states, particularly after her first appearance on the Tonight Show, that she became Quebec Royalty. Because, despite what the arbiters of good taste in Toronto (hey, I'm in Calgary; I have to take a friendly shot at T.O. now and then ;) ) may think of her, she is indeed loved and revered by the French in Quebec.

And if it's any consolation, lexi, I'm pretty right wing for a Canuck, and I still think CBC has the best news coverage of any electronic media in North America, (just don't make me listen to "The Current") and that Don Cherry is a boor. In fact, I would submit that CBC Radio is one of the great things about Canada.

Cat Whisperer

11-13-2009, 10:41 PM

<snip>
Maybe this isn't appropriate for a thread about what makes Canada great.
Nah, probably not. Quebec isn't the only region with complaints.

BMada

11-13-2009, 10:58 PM

oh yea, we should add that to what makes Canada great, the unified bashing of Toronto!!!

mnemosyne

11-14-2009, 12:01 AM

I dunno, I think Switzerland's doing that much better, and they've got three cantonal-level majority languages plus an indigenous language. Maybe it's because they've got more of a common culture with shared national myths, or maybe it's because the country is more decentralized with language being solely a cantonal responsibility. Clearly they're doing something right anyway.

I'm sure there's something we can learn from them. I'm sure there are things they do or have done that we'd like to avoid. I'm not very familiar with Switzerland (though I did visit a couple of times when I was young!) so I can't really comment on this. Sorry, because it could be an interesting topic (for another thread)!

What I'd like is for my English-speaking (or English-integrated) compatriots to tell me once and for all what it is that they expect from us.

And they are waiting for Québec to tell them once and for all what Québec expects from them. Funny, isn't it? It's like an old married couple.....

Because what I get from them is a mix of your current attitude (praising this language duality as one of the things that supposedly makes Canada such a great diverse country, despite the fact that the French-speaking and English-speaking sides do not know and mostly do not care what the other side is doing, which isn't exactly what I'd call diversity) and the attitude that French-speakers in Quebec are responsible for all of Canada's woes and are racist, ethnocentric, incompetent and, it almost seems, all-around evil. As far as I'm concerned, English Canada is a beast with two heads: one who wants to claim me for its purposes and fit me into a mold without even knowing anything about me, and one who wants to blame me for all of our defects. So I want to know: what it is that you want me to do?

You've just put most of English Canada into the same type of mould you are trying to break out of. We can take this paragraph and line of discussion back to your identity thread, or a new one, if you'd like, because I agree that this isn't the proper thread for it. I warn you, though...I don't have a lot of time to post lately (at least not detailed, coherent sentences!), and that doesn't seem likely to change any time soon. If you're willing to drag it out, I am too! :)

One of these days, I'll end up in Sherbrooke for more than a day or two with some free time and you and I can meet for a beer and we can resolve these drive-by Quebecker discussions once and for all! :)

Spoons

11-14-2009, 01:28 AM

think Rene Simard .... Must we?

hey, I'm in Calgary; I have to take a friendly shot at T.O. now and then....I lived in Toronto; it deserves a friendly shot from time to time.

elbows

11-14-2009, 08:49 AM

Canadians are proud of their country and athletes and artist's achievements. But they don't get all lathered up about it, like they had a hand in it. The same with their Patriotism, a lighter touch.

Remember when the Canadian embassy in Tehran smuggled out a group of American's who'd gotten caught up in the overthrow? Yeah it was a great thing to do, and it was nice to see the American's treating us like heroes, but it was all just a little over done for most Canadian's, I think.

Our US cousin's were way, way more pumped than we really were. I mean, honestly, what were our choices? Toss them back out into the streets? Canadians, though proud, weren't all worked up about it. Happy, none-the-less, to have our cousins buying us drinks in bars, of course.

I happened to interact with a recent immigrant from Columbia, not long ago. We got to talking, she was telling me about Canadian culture as she was finding it. I asked her why she'd chosen Canada for her family, especially over America. I figured the sense of America as the centre of the universe would loom large in South America, as opposed to Canada, with such a small image in the world.

She told me that coming from Columbia the amount of gun culture in America frightened her, and she said that it seemed to her that largely, Canada did no harm in the world. It was an interesting perspective to get a glimpse into.

Sometimes I love my country for what it's not, more than what it is.

Sunspace

11-14-2009, 05:14 PM

oh yea, we should add that to what makes Canada great, the unified bashing of Toronto!!!

I lived in Toronto; it deserves a friendly shot from time to time.Hey hey hey! Watch it! We resemble that remark!

:) :)

Cat Whisperer

11-14-2009, 05:55 PM

C<snip>
Our US cousin's were way, way more pumped than we really were. I mean, honestly, what were our choices? Toss them back out into the streets? Canadians, though proud, weren't all worked up about it. Happy, none-the-less, to have our cousins buying us drinks in bars, of course.
<snip>
It was the same way with 9/11, when Canadian communities hosted thousands of American (and world) flyers that couldn't get home. Of course we did - how could we not? It did get up my snoot a little when an American general (I think it was) was criticizing Canada's efforts in Afghanistan, though.

BMada

11-14-2009, 06:26 PM

you sure it was an american general that criticized the Canadian effort in Afghanistan? I thought we were one of the only few nations that have an active support there. Perhaps they were criticizing that we want out of there soon. Our commitment for troops is ending soon and they probably want us to step up to a bigger and longer commitment to the effort of aiding the Afghan nation.

Cat Whisperer

11-14-2009, 09:41 PM

I found it - it was U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates, criticizing other countries' contributions in Afghanistan. (http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/print/CTVNews/20080116/nato_gates_080116/20080116/?hub=CanadaAM&subhub=PrintStory)

Spoons

11-14-2009, 11:34 PM

Hey hey hey! Watch it! We resemble that remark! :) :)Fair enough, but what Torontonians have to realize is that they are not representative of Canada as a whole. I well recall my days in Toronto, where it was automatically assumed that what Toronto wanted, the rest of the country should have. Those idiots in Alberta, those French folks in Quebec, those stupid Maritimers, those perpetually-stoned BCers; they didn't know what they wanted. Torontonians had the answer!

This is why Toronto is disliked--because it often presumes to speak for the country as a whole. I submit that it cannot. How can the Torontonian know what's best for the prairie wheat farmer; for the BC businessperson who deals with the markets in Tokyo, Hong Kong, and Sydney; for the Quebec French-speaker who hates English-speakers; for the Maritime fisherfolk who are prevented from fishing; for the northern Dene and for the European-descended people who have made the North their home? Never having experienced the challenges these people face, it seems to me that Toronto cannot make rational, reasoned decisions concerning them, but puzzlingly, it seems to have the attitude that it can.

I have long argued that the best way to cement Canadian unity is for the people of the various regions to talk to each other. We do that, to a degree, on the SDMB. But we need better communication among those who are not Dopers. I do not believe that such communication could come from something like the central-Canada centered CBC; but I do believe that it can come at the grass-roots level. We need to go beyond the dialogue that we can do at the SDMB, and beyond what can be done on the Ontario/Quebec-centric CBC, and move towards something more widespread nationally.

I'd also like a pony .... :)

Muffin

11-14-2009, 11:40 PM

Katamivik.

Spoons

11-14-2009, 11:43 PM

Katamivik.Were you a participant?

Muffin

11-14-2009, 11:48 PM

Nope. Would have liked to have been. It helps counter the problem of Toronto being the centre of the universe due to its people not looking outside of Toronto.

Cat Whisperer

11-14-2009, 11:55 PM

Good post, Spoons. As a lifelong resident of the prairies, I have often experienced people who have moved out here and had an epiphany; "Hey, there's a whole country out here, and it's not like Toronto!" (and the people here don't much like Toronto). I like the idea of much more dialogue, but I don't know how to go about it, either.

Spoons

11-15-2009, 12:00 AM

Nope. Would have liked to have been.So would have I. Problem was, that the way the program was presented back in the 70s, it didn't sit straight with my Toronto parents, who were convinced that it was somehow communistical/socialistical, and thus not suited for their son.

It helps counter the problem of Toronto being the centre of the universe due to its people not looking outside of Toronto.Agreeed. But it has to overcome the problems specified above. As well as the waves of immigrants who believe that the way to success is through nonstop studying at U of T and York, rather than traipsing through Canada during a Katimavik year.

Declan

11-15-2009, 02:19 AM

What I like about Canada, is the women.

Declan

Muffin

11-15-2009, 04:41 AM

What I like about Canada, is the women.

Declan

That's what I like about Lower Canada in particular.

Muffin

11-15-2009, 04:53 AM

Agreeed. But it has to overcome the problems specified above. As well as the waves of immigrants who believe that the way to success is through nonstop studying at U of T and York, rather than traipsing through Canada during a Katimavik year.In the 70s I think that nonstop studying at U of T and York was the way to get ahead for brown immigrants. Toronto society was white society, and Toronto money was white money. The doors were closed, so the immigrants simply by-passed the powers that be, effectively forcing the powers that be to change their tune. In that respect, I think the city has changed for the better since then, and is continuing to change, but unfortunately, it did nothing to help Toronto look outside itself.

Malthus

11-15-2009, 11:15 AM

Fair enough, but what Torontonians have to realize is that they are not representative of Canada as a whole. I well recall my days in Toronto, where it was automatically assumed that what Toronto wanted, the rest of the country should have. Those idiots in Alberta, those French folks in Quebec, those stupid Maritimers, those perpetually-stoned BCers; they didn't know what they wanted. Torontonians had the answer!

This is why Toronto is disliked--because it often presumes to speak for the country as a whole. I submit that it cannot. How can the Torontonian know what's best for the prairie wheat farmer; for the BC businessperson who deals with the markets in Tokyo, Hong Kong, and Sydney; for the Quebec French-speaker who hates English-speakers; for the Maritime fisherfolk who are prevented from fishing; for the northern Dene and for the European-descended people who have made the North their home? Never having experienced the challenges these people face, it seems to me that Toronto cannot make rational, reasoned decisions concerning them, but puzzlingly, it seems to have the attitude that it can.

There is something in that.

There is however another side to it - the Canadian habit of, as it were, wishing to enforce equality by hammering down anyone standing too tall.

Toronto-bashing is a reaction against Toronto-arrogance - partly real and partly perceived. Most of all, it is a reaction against anything or anyone seen as "too big for their britches", with all that attitude implies.

I love Canada, and many of the good things about it have already been mentioned. One of the bad things about this great country - the dark side of our self-effacing habits as it were - is narrow parocialism and envy of exceptional achievement. As someone once put it, the perfect Canadian job would be an 'associate professor of sociology' - safe, uncontroversial, vaguely progressive, having a nice pension plan and tenure. If someone has ambitions to be more than that, they are likely to attract envy and dislike, moreso than(say) south of the border.

trupa

11-15-2009, 11:18 AM

Fair enough, but what Torontonians have to realize is that they are not representative of Canada as a whole. I well recall my days in Toronto, where it was automatically assumed that what Toronto wanted, the rest of the country should have. Those idiots in Alberta, those French folks in Quebec, those stupid Maritimers, those perpetually-stoned BCers; they didn't know what they wanted. Torontonians had the answer!

This is why Toronto is disliked--because it often presumes to speak for the country as a whole. I submit that it cannot. How can the Torontonian know what's best for the prairie wheat farmer; for the BC businessperson who deals with the markets in Tokyo, Hong Kong, and Sydney; for the Quebec French-speaker who hates English-speakers; for the Maritime fisherfolk who are prevented from fishing; for the northern Dene and for the European-descended people who have made the North their home? Never having experienced the challenges these people face, it seems to me that Toronto cannot make rational, reasoned decisions concerning them, but puzzlingly, it seems to have the attitude that it can.

I have long argued that the best way to cement Canadian unity is for the people of the various regions to talk to each other. We do that, to a degree, on the SDMB. But we need better communication among those who are not Dopers. I do not believe that such communication could come from something like the central-Canada centered CBC; but I do believe that it can come at the grass-roots level. We need to go beyond the dialogue that we can do at the SDMB, and beyond what can be done on the Ontario/Quebec-centric CBC, and move towards something more widespread nationally.

I'd also like a pony .... :)

Ooh that was well said, Spoons. It appears law-school failed in its endeavour to quash readable, eloquent writing, at least in your case. :D I have come to agree with what you say. Travelling to Newfoundland and the prairies, living outside Quebec for the first time, all were totally surprising experiences for me. I fell in love with the people of Alberta for some traits and attitudes that were completely opposite of the misconceptions I had when I came here.

I think we all could benefit from exposure like this, and that without them, we all tend to assume that the other parts of the country are just like us, or should be . It's just that there are more people in Toronto making that assumption than anywhere else, parked right on top of many big decision makers to boot. Thus the effects of this assumption made in Toronto ripple out to the rest of the country, making the rest of us grumble.

Wait, did I just defend Toronto? There must be some mistake...

Declan

11-15-2009, 05:16 PM

That's what I like about Lower Canada in particular.

I try so hard to keep my mind out of the gutter , I really really do lol.

Declan

Sunspace

11-15-2009, 06:54 PM

Katamivik.I read Spoons' excellent post and immediately thought 'Katimavik' as well. The wretched thing was, I never heard of it until I got to university and met people who'd been through it.

We do need a mixing program so people won't get stuck in their own silos eating the same old stuff over and over again. Gut knowledge that other people can be very different, and experience in dealing with those kinds of differences without causing a riot, helps to make society stronger and more flexible.

Kinda the opposite of my uncle in BC, who believed that the French were evil incarnate and went araound the air base at Comox and painted out the French on the signs. All the rest of us were ashamed of this. And the last time I saw him, I'd travelled from Banff, Alberta by bus, where I'd met a very cute Québecoise named Nancy at the youth hostel. I thought of her and looked at my uncle and wondered, "How can you believe the French are evil?"

Spoons

11-15-2009, 08:33 PM

I read Spoons' excellent post....Wow ... thanks, Sunspace. And thank you also, trupa and Cat Whisperer!

... and immediately thought 'Katimavik' as well.Katimavik's intentions are good, and it is indeed the kind of program that would address the concerns we've been discussing. But the problem with the program lies not so much in what it does, as in how it is presented. As I implied above, the idea that you work for a year, earning next to nothing, doesn't go over well with many parents; especially if there is a concern over being able to afford higher education and a hope that the child will somehow contribute through job earnings.

If Katimavik is to induce more participation from the people it could most help (those who rarely, if ever, leave their home city/province to travel to and through other parts of Canada), I'd suggest the following. Note that I'm basing my remarks on what I heard about the program when I was in high school thirty years ago; things may have changed since:

-- Communicate directly with parents. I'd guess few parents want to hear "you take a year off school and work in different parts of Canada, and they pay you nothing until you finish and then you get a thousand bucks," from their children. Don't trust the kids to pass on an accurate message; Katimavik should be informing parents directly of the benefits of the program, in other words--which shouldn't include "taking a year off school."

-- Similar to the above, stress the educational aspects of the program. They're there, and we've been discussing them: at all levels (the individual participant's and nationally), a better understanding of the internal challenges that Canada and its people face. It's not necessarily a year off school, if it is thought of as a year in a different kind of school.

-- Pay participants more money. Looking back, it really was a pittance for a year's work--as I recall things, I made approximately three times as much working a summer job for three or four months. Katimavik's pay scale practically guarantees it will only attract participants from well-off families, who don't need the money; or dirt-poor kids, who can get need-based school grants and loans. I'd guess that those in between simply cannot afford to consider Katimavik.

Whoa! Really digressing from the OP's original question, aren't we? Well ... one of the things that make Canada great is that it has a program called "Katimavik," even though that program has room for improvement.

How's that for trying to return to the OP? :)

Larry Mudd

11-15-2009, 09:40 PM

I'd met a very cute Québecoise named Nancy at the youth hostel. I thought of her and looked at my uncle and wondered, "How can you believe the French are evil?"My father was francophobe to the point that he honestly believed that the Bosnian war was a "preview" of Canadian history.

He would probably spin in his grave if he knew that I married a Québécoise, and that the only one of his grandchildren that carries on his name will be raised bilingually. I hope against hope that there is some sort of afterlife, just so that he might know this. :)

RickJay

11-15-2009, 10:34 PM

Fair enough, but what Torontonians have to realize is that they are not representative of Canada as a whole. I well recall my days in Toronto, where it was automatically assumed that what Toronto wanted, the rest of the country should have. Those idiots in Alberta, those French folks in Quebec, those stupid Maritimers, those perpetually-stoned BCers; they didn't know what they wanted. Torontonians had the answer!

This is why Toronto is disliked--because it often presumes to speak for the country as a whole.
Having lived in the Toronto area for some time no,w I'm struck by how far your impression is from, well, reality.

I've never, not once, got the sense that "Torontonians" think they know what's best for the rest of the country; that's just silly. Most people in general don't think such things, and in Toronto, specifically, half the population's not even from Canada anyway.

The Toronto MEDIA can be very navel-gazing, but what's insular about them is not that they think Toronto knows what's best for BC, but that they're only concerned about matters in Toronto. If you write for the Toronto Star, you write solely about Toronto, and maybe the suburbs (and if you write about the suburbs it has to be really negative.) It's not that Toronto knows what's best for BC, it's that it doesn't matter; issues outside Toronto aren't issues of importance to the Toronto media.

This is, of course, common to all very large cities, not just Toronto, but that doesn't make it any less irritating. But "Torontonians knows what's best for the rest of Canada" is just fantasy. They don't care. Why should they? Do people in Kimberley or Red Deer give a shit about TTC fare hikes? I sure hope not.

As well as the waves of immigrants who believe that the way to success is through nonstop studying at U of T and York, rather than traipsing through Canada during a Katimavik year.
Yah, those stupid immigrants... oh, wait. They're right. An education IS a better route to success than schlepping around doing menial work for a year in an old hippie program.

No offense, but which do you think looks better on a resume? I've never seen a want ad that said "Katimavik experience required." Maybe those immigrants aren't quite as stupid as you think.

Cat Whisperer

11-16-2009, 01:17 PM

I don't have a problem with Toronto media being Toronto-centric; it's the federal media being Toronto-centric that I have a problem with.

Malthus

11-16-2009, 01:20 PM

I don't have a problem with Toronto media being Toronto-centric; it's the federal media being Toronto-centric that I have a problem with.

To the extent that's true, it hardly seems a good reason to dislike Toronto or Torontonians.

(What exactly is "federal media"?)

Cat Whisperer

11-16-2009, 01:41 PM

The national stuff - the Weather Channel, TSN, CBC, CTV, etc. If you live in Toronto I'm sure you don't notice the near-constant Toronto slant/Toronto bias, but the rest of us do.

Malthus

11-16-2009, 01:48 PM

The national stuff - the Weather Channel, TSN, CBC, CTV, etc. If you live in Toronto I'm sure you don't notice the near-constant Toronto slant/Toronto bias, but the rest of us do.

Really? Of all of those I use the Weather Channel most frequently (not being a sports fan or much of a TV watcher), and it covers the whole country.

Of course, we may be getting the whole-country version, and for some obscure reason they broadcast the Toronto-only version to you. ;)

http://www.theweathernetwork.com/?ref=topnav_weather_homepage

Muffin

11-16-2009, 01:54 PM

Federal media? Perhaps the CBC with its cuts to local radio -- I don't think most folks in large cities can comprehend how important the CBC is to smaller communities.

Muffin

11-16-2009, 02:06 PM

To the extent that's true, it hardly seems a good reason to dislike Toronto or Torontonians.OK, quick poll: who dislikes Malthus?

Let's face it, pretty much everyone likes Malthus, and the few who don't are best patted on the head and ignored anyway.

Now how about Sunspace? Same thing.

Or RickJay? Despite his being a Burlingtonian (correct me if I am mistaken), it's hard to find someone who dislikes him.

The simple fact is that no matter how much we try to dislike Torontonians, we can't come up with any individuals whom we actually dislike.

That's one of the things that makes Canada great -- terrific people wherever you go. (Except Pickle Lake (http://my.tbaytel.net/culpeper/PickleLakeLow.htm).)

Malthus

11-16-2009, 02:49 PM

OK, quick poll: who dislikes Malthus?

Let's face it, pretty much everyone likes Malthus, and the few who don't are best patted on the head and ignored anyway.

Now how about Sunspace? Same thing.

Or RickJay? Despite his being a Burlingtonian (correct me if I am mistaken), it's hard to find someone who dislikes him.

The simple fact is that no matter how much we try to dislike Torontonians, we can't come up with any individuals whom we actually dislike.

That's one of the things that makes Canada great -- terrific people wherever you go. (Except Pickle Lake (http://my.tbaytel.net/culpeper/PickleLakeLow.htm).)

Except that we occasionally get the supposed imbalance in the Weather Channel's reporting on cold fronts over Etobicoke held up as evidence for why we should be "disliked" en masse. ;)

Muffin

11-16-2009, 04:27 PM

Cold front in Etobicoke? That's just the snow making equipment in use on the garbage pile.

Sunspace

11-16-2009, 04:43 PM

Cold front in Etobicoke? That's just the snow making equipment in use on the garbage pile.The garbage pile's in Mississauga. Sheesh.

Spoons

11-16-2009, 06:13 PM

The garbage pile's in Mississauga. Sheesh.Well, Wikipedia says it's Centennial Park (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centennial_Park_(Toronto)) in Etobicoke:

Centennial Park is a large regional park located in westend Toronto, in the former city of Etobicoke. It is maintained by the City of Toronto Parks and Recreation.

The park has a variety of features including

<snip>

-- Centennial Hill (formerly Mount Garbage and Mount Trashmore), a hill that was the site of as a municipal dump and the south end is used as a transfer station.Of course, Mississauga could always grow its own garbage pile if it wants to. ;)

Muffin

11-16-2009, 06:29 PM

Sunspace, I take it that you are neither a skier nor a garbologist. Don't worry, we still love ya for what you are. http://www.toronto.ca/parks/parks_gardens/centennialdetail.htm

orcenio

11-16-2009, 06:35 PM

What I hate most about Canadians is that they are very regionalistic/divisive: West vs East, English vs French, Natives vs Canada, urban vs rural, the provinces vs all the other provinces, everyone vs Toronto. It seems that everyone, everywhere likes to gripe about something

Newfoundlanders - Generally they dislike how the economic history of the Island turned out. There's a strong "Newfoundland first" streak due to this
Labrador - Feel they are ignored by Newfies
Nova Scotia - is generally calm, but cape Breton feels like Labrador
New Brunswick - The Acadians fear they are on the wrong side of losing linguistic culture war with the Anglophones
Quebec - Volumes of books are written on the cultural/political hangups of the Quebeckers. Lately it seems that they don't even understand each other, old paradigms such as rich/English/Protestant Quebecker vs poor/French/Catholic Quebecker are being replaced by English Quebecker vs French Quebecker vs Black Quebecker vs Native Quebecker vs Arab/Muslim Quebecker. Red-necked/blue-blooded rural Quebecois have had enough of it all and are voting Conservative to show it. Jacob Levy said it best with thisrural voters, religious voters, working-class voters, cultural-majority voters eventually get sick of pro-trade, pro-immigration, pro-accommodation of multiculturalism policies pursued by urban and professional and political elites. (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opinions/article686132.ece)
Ontario - Feels that they are top dog (they're 40% of Canada); but they secretly hates that the other provinces can use the federal government to boss them around.
Manitoba/Saskatchewan - slight hurt feelings that they are being over shadowed by the rise of Alberta.
Alberta - Hates that the Conservatives haven't got a majority yet, that they have to send massive amounts of money to the other provinces, that they are not as politically influential as they would like to be...
British Colombia - Not really annoyed at all. Just happy to get to host the freaking winter games (Vancouver 2010!).

ETA...

PEI/The North - so off the radar that they are always forgotten by the rest of Canada...

Polycarp

11-16-2009, 06:51 PM

Nice dsummary, orcenio.

Except for BC: "Not really annoyed at all" is accurate, but that's because they've mellowed out, ifyaknowwhatimean. :D

Cat Whisperer

11-16-2009, 08:31 PM

Really? Of all of those I use the Weather Channel most frequently (not being a sports fan or much of a TV watcher), and it covers the whole country.

Of course, we may be getting the whole-country version, and for some obscure reason they broadcast the Toronto-only version to you. ;)

http://www.theweathernetwork.com/?ref=topnav_weather_homepage
Sorry, I meant to say national media, not federal media.

I can see what the weather is doing in southern Ontario any time of the day or night on the Weather Channel - they do regularly intersperse local weather in with the Toronto weather, I'll give you that. :D

Muffin

11-16-2009, 08:44 PM

I drove down to Toronto last August. I didn't check the weather. I should have. (http://www.blogto.com/city/2009/08/massive_storm_hits_toronto_tornados_reported_across_gta/)

Sunspace

11-16-2009, 09:17 PM

Sunspace, I take it that you are neither a skier nor a garbologist. Don't worry, we still love ya for what you are. http://www.toronto.ca/parks/parks_gardens/centennialdetail.htmAh, but the one in Mississauga is bigger. :)

Spoons

11-16-2009, 09:37 PM

... they do regularly intersperse local weather in with the Toronto weather, I'll give you that. :D"... And for you 905ers in Mississauga, that's what you can expect over the next couple of days. Alberta, expect snow. Turning to Pickering, Ajax, Oshawa, and Bowmanville, we're looking at some cold temps, so do the kids up well for school. BC, it's gonna be mild. Expect snowflurries across the GTA tonight, but nothing serious; MTO crews are on alert and ready to go. Saskatchewan, high winds and snow. York Region including Markham and Stouffville, heavier accumulations, so give yourselves some extra time in the morning. Nova Scotia, watch that wind chill. TTC expects no weather delays, but GO Transit may have problems on the Meadowvale line. Quebec, snow. Don't forget, the Spadina exit from the Gardiner is closed for construction, so with this weather coming, you probably want to find an alternate route now. Newfoundland, snow...."

Naw, that's an exaggeration. :D Another great thing about Canada: we may disagree with each other, but we can often have a good laugh doing it.