John Wayne Throwdown: Rio Bravo vs. El Dorado (50 year old spoilers)

[Nars Glinley]

For reasons that I don't understand (probably money), John Wayne made the same movie twice. Rio Bravo (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0053221/) in 1959 and El Dorado (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0061619/) in 1966. The plot of both movies is: The Duke helps an old, drunken sheriff friend keep a bad guy in jail. The Duke is aided by a young gun slinging sidekick with a state nickname and a crusty old deputy.

My thoughts:
John Wayne's character is the same in both movies. Push.
Drunken sheriff: Robert Mitchum (ED) has a slim edge over Dean Martin (RB).
Sidekick: James Caan's (ED) Missippi character is funnier and more likeable than Ricky Nelson's (RB) Colorado.
Crusty old deputy: Clear winner to Walter Brennan (RB) over Arthur Hunnicutt (ED) who although he was very good, he was no Walter Brennan.
Ladyfriend: I give the edge to Angie Dickinson (RB) over Charlene Holt (ED). Both were extremely sexy but Angie Dickinson is, well, Angie Dickinson.
Bad guy in prison: Again, very close but I'm going with Ed Asner over Claude Aikens.

The voters on IMDB apparently favor RB giving it 8/10 stars versus ED's 7.6/10. I have to give the edge to ED, I'd give it 9 and RB 8.

What say you old time Dopers? Don't get me started on Rio Lobo.

[mlees]

I like both films. I have to object: John doesn't play the same character in both films.

In Rio Bravo, Wayne is a Sheriff. In El Dorado, Wayne is a gun for hire.

I think it's a little creepy watching a young Angie Dickensen necking with a 52 year old Duke, but since I'm fast approaching 50, I reserve the right to change my attitude in the future.

[aceplace57]

I always questioned the decision to put pop stars in Wayne's movies. Ricky Nelson, Glen Campbell etc.

The only 60's Wayne movie I really like is Sons of Katie Elder. El Dorado was ok. War Wagon was terrible. True Grit good, but painful seeing a fat J. Wayne.

[silenus]

Mississippi: [examining J.P.'s leg after he's been shot] I gotta cut this pant leg.
Sheriff J. P. Harrah: Well, go ahead and cut it! Have you got a kni...
[Mississippi pulls out his knife from its hiding place on his back]
Sheriff J. P. Harrah: A knife? Uh, I suppose I've asked this before, but just who?
[looks at Cole instead]
Sheriff J. P. Harrah: Who is he?
Cole: Tell him your name, Mississippi.
Mississippi: [sighs and looks up] Alan Bourdillion Trehearne.
Sheriff J. P. Harrah: Well, no wonder he carries a knife.

El Dorado in a walk. I never liked Walter Brennan much, except maybe in Support Your Local Sheriff!

[MovieMogul]

Gotta go with Rio Bravo all the way. Mitchum & Caan are fun, but are hamming it up. Martin actually convinces more as the reformation case, and Nelson is the exact opposite of a young turk--playing things cool and close to the vest, something Caan would've been incapable of. Ricky's not a great actor, but he delivers exactly what that character needs--there's a reason Pat Wheeler (Ward Bond) has such confidence in him. Plus, he doesn't get a love interest, which is a distraction for Mississippi in ED.

Plus, two perfect moments of brilliance that Dorado can't touch: The flowerpot through the window, and "My Rifle, Pony, and Me." (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IpEnsdXwFM)

[aceplace57]

The wikipedia article mentions the similarity between these two films. There are plot spoilers!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Dorado_%28film%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rio_Bravo_%28movie%29

Hawkes Sheriff trilogy never matched his Cavalry trilogy.

[MovieMogul]

Hawkes Sheriff trilogy never matched his Cavalry trilogy.Probably because it was Ford's Cavalry trilogy, not Hawks'.

[aceplace57]

oops... you're right. So much for my memory.

[aceplace57]

El Dorado J. Wayne seemed more vulnerable. He got shot and partially paralyzed. The character has more dimension than usual.

[RikWriter]

I liked El Dorado better, mostly because I like James Caan and his character.

[lissener]

I love that Hawks revisited the story, giving Duke a chance to play both roles. I never thought of Wayne as an actor till I'd seen both. But while El Dorado is a good movie, Rio Bravo is one of the greatest movies of all time.

[Oredigger77]

I like El Dorado better probably because I saw it first, give me a break I'm a young pup, but if nothing else Mississippi's poetry beats out Colorado's singing any day of the week.

[The Second Stone]

RB for Walter Brennan. Walter alone takes it. Stumpy.

[BrotherCadfael]

As alluded to in the OP, It actually was remade a third time in 1970, with Wayne as Wayne, Bill Williams (who?) as the sheriff, Jack Elam as the crusty deputy, Jennifer O'Neil as the young gunslinger, and Sherry Lansing as Wayne's love interest.

There's a Civil War subplot thrown in as well, but it's really not important.

[FallenAngel]

I have to soundly go with El Dorado. Wayne's characterization was better, Caan was far better than Nelson, the sidekicks were a draw, the girlfriend was hotter (apologies to Angie, but it's true) and, most surprisingly, Mitchum's drunken performance was better and more engaging than Martin's.

One of my favorite scenes is when it turns out Mississippi can't shoot worth a hill of beans and they go to visit The Swede. The way he tells the story about how he came to own the scatter gun is priceless.

[aceplace57]

Paul Fix (played the doctor) is another reason I prefer El Dorado. He's one of my favorite character actors. He was the Marshall in The Rifleman. Played the doctor in the Star Trek pilot. Fix was in a bunch of Wayne's films. He always did a good job.

[Ol'Gaffer]

As alluded to in the OP, It actually was remade a third time in 1970, with Wayne as Wayne, Bill Williams (who?) as the sheriff, Jack Elam as the crusty deputy, Jennifer O'Neil as the young gunslinger, and Sherry Lansing as Wayne's love interest.

There's a Civil War subplot thrown in as well, but it's really not important.

I heard a story (almost certainly apocryphal) about Wayne getting a call from Howard Hawks (who directed all three of the movies) asking if he'd read the script for Rio Lobo yet and Wayne reportedly responded something to the effect of "Why would I read it? I've already made the movie twice."

[C K Dexter Haven]

I don't think of EL DORADO as a remake of RIO BRAVO, I think of them as variations on a theme. (Way less successful was RIO LOBO, which reversed the roles: the bad guy is the sheriff holding one of Wayne's friends hostage, and Wayne and company are the ones trying to break into the jail.)

But sticking to the first two: I think RIO BRAVO is a great film, totally likeable, and we watch it at least once a year just to enjoy. EL DORADO has more pain than RIO BRAVO, and more violence. There's more emphasis on mortality, on aging, and on physical deterioration that comes with age. If you look at the scenes that are different (in EL but not in RIO), I think you'll see that. The boy's suicide, for example, has no parallel in RIO BRAVO; shot in the stomach, he kills himself because he can't bear the pain. Similarly, Wayne's physical disability (caused by a bullet against his spine) isn't found in RIO BRAVO: he clutches his side after every physical activity; he collapses twice, totally helpless, partly paralyzed.

The level of pain and violence is much higher: For compare/contrast, consider the scene where Wayne hits a lying bad guy in the face with a gun -- the violence level and pain in EL DORADO is way more extreme, it's not just a whollop (with a rifle, not a gun), it's a clearly supressed desire to kill. The bit where Wayne forces a gunman out through a door to face an ambush by shooting him in the shoulder and leg, has nothing comparable in RIO BRAVO.

Mitchum's alcoholism is seen primarily as physical, where Dean Martin's was psychological/spiritual. The cure for Mitchum's alcoholism is a physical remedy (James Caan's disgusting concoction) compared to the (much more realistic) self-will and spiritual growth for Dean Martin faces.

One mild clue: When Wayne first meets Maudie (Charlene Holt), she says that he helped her when her gambler-husband was killed: that was the story of Feathers (Angie Dickinson) in RIO BRAVO. I read that as saying that EL DORADO is basically RIO BRAVO ten years later, with the characters older and mortality more imminent.

One more point: at the end of EL DORADO, both Wayne and Mitchum are on crutches. Yes, it's funny, but there's a dark undertone to EL DORADO that's absent in RIO BRAVO. I'm not saying it's a dark film -- to the contrary, the dark is well hidden under the action and humor. But it's there, for sure.

It can be argued that this is just the trend in movies, towards more violence, but I don't think that's a sufficient explanation.

[glee]

In a shallow male way, I'd like to say that El Dorado has Michele Carey (http://www.imdb.com/media/rm1217894400/nm0137004) in the cast and so it gets my vote. :D

[carnivorousplant]

True Grit good, but painful seeing a fat J. Wayne.

Fill your hand, you son of a bitch!
:)

[don't mind me]

Rio Bravo for the slash: Wayne kisses Brennan's bald head, Brennan whacks him in the butt with a broom. Clearly a long-established pattern of foreplay.

[Khadaji]

Rio Bravo was a favorite of my dad's. I like it best for the memories it brings. And Angie Dickenson is smoking hot.

[TV time]

It's Rio Bravo for me, but I love them both. The scenes that always stick in my mind are the gun fights (Yeah, I know that makes me a barbarian). But the one where Nelson tosses Wayne the Winchester, and Nelson really does draw and shoot twice while it's in the air. I was impressed. And Stumpy blasting the guy from the jail cell...And the final dynamite scene with Stumpy throwing and Wayne and Martin shooting...Yep, as a fun shoot-um-up Western. Rio Bravo wins. Yeah... and Angie Dickinson.

The final in the trilogy was ...Rio Lobo. That just sucked.

[TV time]

I always questioned the decision to put pop stars in Wayne's movies. Ricky Nelson, Glen Campbell etc.Wasn't Bobby Vinton in two of them? The Train Robbers and Big Jake. And Fabian in North to Alaska. Thank heavens he went with Opie Cunningham in The Shootist. We're probably lucky it wasn't Michael Jackson.

[NDP]

Wasn't Bobby Vinton in two of them? The Train Robbers and Big Jake. And Fabian in North to Alaska.

Also, Frankie Avalon in The Alamo.:rolleyes:

[Roadfood]

I like them both, but really prefer Wayne's character in El Dorado. He just has such a commanding presence in that movie. My favorite scene is when he brings the dead lookout-boy back to the ranch. All those gunhands around, and Wayne is in total command. "But if THIS bunch is the best you've got . . ." And then the way he backs his horse out. Just great.

[carnivorousplant]

I must go for El Dorado. Arthur Hunnicutt is from Gravely, Arkansas. :rolleyes:

[wedgehed]

It's a shame that a young Clint Eastwood was never cast in one of Duke's movies. I suppose he was already too big a star to play 2nd fiddle by the time True Grit was made, but he would have made that movie perfect by playing Le Boeuf.

[carnivorousplant]

It's a shame that a young Clint Eastwood was never cast in one of Duke's movies...he would have made that movie perfect by playing Le Boeuf.

He certainly would. I recall there was some hype over choosing Campbell who couldn't act worth spit because he was from the same state as the author, Charles Portis. Campbell starred in the film version of Charles Portis' Norwood.





Why the hell did I have to mention Gravely, why?:)

[aceplace57]

Some Triva, anyone notice the Kid John Wayne shoots in El Dorado was Johnny Crawford?

That's right J. Wayne shot Lucas McCain's boy. The Rifleman would be a serious threat against anyone with a pistol.

[Odesio]

I must go for El Dorado. Arthur Hunnicutt is from Gravely, Arkansas. :rolleyes:

The problem is they don't have true grit in Gravely like they do in Dardanelle in Yell County Arkansas.

[carnivorousplant]

The problem is they don't have true grit in Gravely like they do in Dardanelle in Yell County Arkansas.

But they are so close. (http://www.mapquest.com/maps?1c=Dardanelle&1s=AR&2c=Gravelly&2s=AR)..:)

[BrotherCadfael]

It's a shame that a young Clint Eastwood was never cast in one of Duke's movies. I suppose he was already too big a star to play 2nd fiddle by the time True Grit was made, but he would have made that movie perfect by playing Le Boeuf.Yeah, but if I recall correctly, Le Boeuf was killed. You simply can't have Eastwood killed in a movie.

[silenus]

You simply can't have Eastwood killed in a movie.

High Plains Drifter

Gran Torino

[balibago]

gotta go with el dorado,james caan was so superior to nelson,martin was ok he held his own but so did mitchum,nothing against dickinson but charlene holt was a truly beautiful woman

[Khadaji]

Rio Bravo. I saw it in my youth and have a fond memory of a generally good family-together time.

[don't mind me]

Kismet: Just as I opened this thread, Get Along Home, Cindy Cindy came on the radio. Rio Bravo is my all-time favorite movie.

[Face Intentionally Left Blank]

Rio Bravo in a walk. James Caan's character wasn't that interesting to me, Robert Michum was great in everything he did, but Dean Martin was more interesting to me, and was great in that role. Angie Dickinson had the better role. Ricky Nelson was middlin' in his performance (but much better than Glen Campbell in True Grit), but an interesting wild-card as a character.

Interestingly, the Sci-Fi writer Leigh Brackett wrote the screenplay for Rio Bravo, Rio Lobo, and El Dorado (and several other well-known movies).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leigh_Brackett#Screenwriter

I forget where I read it (maybe in the foreword to a collection of her short stories in a library book I took out), but as I recall, she was well aware of the similarities, but that's what they wanted her to wrote, so she wrote 'em anyway.

[TriPolar]

It's a toss up for me. I'd watch either movie. I really prefer Walter Brennan, but for the other characters I don't have a great preference. I don't think either Martin or Mitchum gave their finest performances here, but they were stuck playing second fiddle to the Duke.

[Mtgman]

I like both films. I have to object: John doesn't play the same character in both films.

In Rio Bravo, Wayne is a Sheriff. In El Dorado, Wayne is a gun for hire.

I think it's a little creepy watching a young Angie Dickensen necking with a 52 year old Duke, but since I'm fast approaching 50, I reserve the right to change my attitude in the future.Angie Dickinson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angie_Dickinson)(b . 1931) was either twenty-seven or twenty-eight years old at the time of the filming of Rio Bravo(1959) (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0053221/). While she's clearly an adult and in fact had been married since 1952, the general formula for non-creepiness in romantic relations is [Elder's Age] / 2 + 7 <= [Younger's Age] This sets a lower bound for the elder partner's prospects. I didn't invent the formula, but I've seen it around for some time and it maps fairly cleanly to my own squick meter. I'm not saying it's never workable to have larger differences, and it obviously doesn't hold up when both parties are very young.

So in this case we have Wayne, 52, and Dickinson, 28. 52/2 = 26 + 7 = 33 is the lower bound for necking with the Duke at this point in life without running afoul of the creepy calculation.

Now that we're in the future, and your own age has crept up on you, how do you feel about a 28 year old?

Enjoy,
Steven

[longhair75]

Mtgman asks:
Now that we're in the future, and your own age has crept up on you, how do you feel about a 28 year old?

I am fifty eight, six years older that the Duke in Rio Bravo. I think that women in their twenties and thirties can be decorative, but I really don't find women under forty to be really attractive. The other, more complete answer to this question: I have never found Angie Dickenson attractive at all, no matter what her age was at the time.

Just one man's opinion.