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Livardo
11-23-2009, 02:40 PM
I had my cousin the evangelist visit and stay at my place this past weekend. I warn him evey time not to engage me into any kind of religious debate but he never learns.

During one of our conversations I asked him if someone (like a tribesman living in some remote jungle), having never been exposed to the Word of God, would go to Hell.

His answer was that if that somebody had been exposed to the Word and had subsequently rejected the message, then this person would surely be condemned to an eternity of torture. But if that someone (like my tribesman friend) had never had the opportunity to know the Lord, then that person would get a pass at the Pearly Gates and be forgiven. I told him the Bible says the only way to get to heaven is by accepting Jesus Christ into your heart. No exceptions. He gave me the ol' "I'll get back to you with the passage".

Not exactly being a Bible expert, is there a passage that jives with what he claims?

Ludovic
11-23-2009, 02:43 PM
Well, you could always with sufficient technology create a wormhole into Heaven and invade.

Then, God would wish he DID want a starship.

Find Friends
11-23-2009, 02:55 PM
Livardo,

From the part I emphasized here, I'm assuming that you are a mainstream Christian believer. Welcome to SDMB if you are new, BTW.)

...His answer was that if that somebody had been exposed to the Word and had subsequently rejected the message, then this person would surely be condemned to an eternity of torture. But if that someone (like my tribesman friend) had never had the opportunity to know the Lord, then that person would get a pass at the Pearly Gates and be forgiven. I told him the Bible says the only way to get to heaven is by accepting Jesus Christ into your heart. No exceptions. He gave me the ol' "I'll get back to you with the passage".

Not exactly being a Bible expert, is there a passage that jives with what he claims?(Emphasis mine.)

Well, first, where in the Bible does it specifically say: accepting Jesus into your heart?

ISTR* that Acts asks whether you have obeyed the truth.

There is a whole list of different things that the Bible says about salvation. I don't have it handy, maybe one of the fine folks here can help me out.

Meantime, just what did Jesus say in Matthew, chapter 25?

Have you fed the hungry? At least, to the best of your ability? Hmmmmmmm?

- - -


* for newbies: ISTR= I seem to recall

Livardo
11-23-2009, 03:19 PM
Livardo,

From the part I emphasized here, I'm assuming that you are a mainstream Christian believer. Welcome to SDMB if you are new, BTW.)

(Emphasis mine.)

Well, first, where in the Bible does it specifically say: accepting Jesus into your heart?

ISTR* that Acts asks whether you have obeyed the truth.

There is a whole list of different things that the Bible says about salvation. I don't have it handy, maybe one of the fine folks here can help me out.

Meantime, just what did Jesus say in Matthew, chapter 25?

Have you fed the hungry? At least, to the best of your ability? Hmmmmmmm?

- - -


* for newbies: ISTR= I seem to recall


Thanks for the welcome. been lurking for a while, started commenting a few months ago.

No, I'm not a believer. As a matter of fact, I'm one of those dirty atheists:D

Sorry, didn't mean to imply that the "into your heart" bit was a direct passage. I'm just going by what was continuously drilled into my head when we went to church. Accept the Lord Jesus Christ, get baptized, repent.

Livardo
11-23-2009, 03:24 PM
This site (http://www.allaboutgod.com/how-to-get-to-heaven.htm) mentions the following:

The Bible says that our efforts at doing “good deeds” are not acceptable in the sight of God (Ephesians 2:8-9). God alone is holy. God alone is good. So, God has made a way for sinful human beings to enter into His heaven.
[...]
How to get to heaven - Believe the truth!
The truth is that there is only one way for any human being to get to heaven and that is to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.


Seems to me like if you're one of the unlucky ones to have never been exposed to the Word of God, you're going to Heck!

RitterSport
11-23-2009, 03:38 PM
Seems to me like if you're one of the unlucky ones to have never been exposed to the Word of God, you're going to Heck!

If your cousin is right and someone can still get into heaven as long as he or she have never been exposed to the Word, then evangelists are putting people into serious danger by exposing them to the Word! I would be really pissed off if I was in my small village in Africa heading towards guaranteed salvation when, with no warning, some evangelist comes by and exposes his Word to me. Now, I have to either accept Jesus into my heart to be saved or risk going to hell! Before, I was definitely going to get in. Stupid evangelist!

Of course, if he's wrong about the loophole but right about the way into heaven, then God is condemning people (and lots of babies!) to hell without them even having the chance to find a way to find faith. Seems pretty arbitrary to me.

Livardo
11-23-2009, 03:41 PM
If your cousin is right and someone can still get into heaven as long as he or she have never been exposed to the Word, then evangelists are putting people into serious danger by exposing them to the Word! I would be really pissed off if I was in my small village in Africa heading towards guaranteed salvation when, with no warning, some evangelist comes by and exposes his Word to me. Now, I have to either accept Jesus into my heart to be saved or risk going to hell! Before, I was definitely going to get in. Stupid evangelist!

Of course, if he's wrong about the loophole but right about the way into heaven, then God is condemning people (and lots of babies!) to hell without them even having the chance to find a way to find faith. Seems pretty arbitrary to me.

Haha, brilliant.. this will drive him nuts! Leave those tribesmen alone you dangerous Word spreaders! You are potentially sending those people to hell!!

fuzzypickles
11-23-2009, 03:42 PM
Modern Christian dogma rarely reflects actual Scripture. Fundamentalist Christians will make up whatever rules best suit them, and then cherry-pick whichever Bible verses fit their delusional beliefs, even if they have to twist the words around a bit.

Regarding people who have never been exposed to Christ (such as Amazonian tribes who've never had contact with outside people) -- the most common rhetoric I've heard is that there are NO such people. Jesus Christ WILL reveal himself, in some manner or form, to every single human being on Earth, perhaps as a vision or a dream, and that person will have one chance to accept him as the Savior or reject him. There are no exceptions.

However, that's dogma not scripture. If you're looking for a bible verse that specifies such a thing, good luck finding one. (Not that such a petty thing as lack of scriptural support would ever prevent these idiot Christians from believing in such claptrap.)

Unauthorized Cinnamon
11-23-2009, 03:49 PM
There's always John 3:16 and following: "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[f] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

If Yahweh is real, and loving, and really sent his perfect son/part of himself to die for the sins of the world, it doesn't make much sense that you have to believe in Jesus to get the salvation.

On the other hand, if Yahweh is merely a meme, it makes perfect sense that it includes the concept that belief is required for salvation. Better replication that way.

Attack from the 3rd dimension
11-23-2009, 03:52 PM
A quick scan of the online NT for 'heaven' reveals the following hints from one Matthew:
Be poor in spirit, or be persecuted (Matthew 5)
Forgive people who sin against you (Matthew 6)
Do the will of god (Matthew 7)
Acknowledge Jesus, and he'll do the same for you in heaven (Matthew 10)
Don’t be rich/give to the poor (Matthew 19)

Most anything else would appear to be supposition and guesswork.

Oakminster
11-23-2009, 04:14 PM
Isn't there that bit about Jesus saying "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Light. There is no way to the Father except through me."? To me, that implies that the OP's tribesman is going to be in the same boat as all the other non-believers, if there turns out to be a Heaven as Christians envision it.....

robardin
11-23-2009, 04:50 PM
On the other hand, if Yahweh is merely a meme, it makes perfect sense that it includes the concept that belief is required for salvation. Better replication that way.

This can be much more effectively summed up with a Venn diagram (http://somethinkfun.blogspot.com/2009/10/venn-like-state-of-mind-part-4.html).

Clothahump
11-23-2009, 04:57 PM
First, one must show conclusive proof of the existence of heaven.

robardin
11-23-2009, 04:58 PM
BTW, you might also opt to quote the prophet Homer Simpson.

First, one might ask, "Why should I care?" The answer is usually along the lines of Pascal's Wager: that you can't afford NOT to care. Sure, if you're all materialist and turn out to be right, then no biggie; but if it turns out after you die that you SHOULD have worried about Salvation, it would be Too Late.

Then, I point out that many, many religions have existed in human history and thought, most of which purported to be the only way to a good outcome in an afterlife. So why listen to this particular spiel? Quoth Homer Simpson: "What if we pick the wrong religion, and every week we're just making God madder and madder at us?"

Now your friend brings in a third option: if you were never dealt a hand in the game (never got proselytized to), you can't lose (go to Hell)! So why ante up? And therefore, since proselytizing surely sends more people to Hell than to Heaven, aren't they doing more harm than good in so doing?

"A strange game. The only winning move is not to play. How about a nice game of chess?"

pbbth
11-23-2009, 04:59 PM
I think you're supposed to take the stairs.

Livardo
11-23-2009, 06:09 PM
I think you're supposed to take the stairs.


and then? Should I knock?

LeeshaJoy
11-23-2009, 06:11 PM
I think you're supposed to take the stairs.

I thought some lady already bought those stairs. Does she allow other people to use them?

SecretaryofEvil
11-23-2009, 06:12 PM
I'm agnostic but used to be Catholic. The official line from the priests was "We know you can get to Heaven by being a good Christian. We don't presume to know if God, with all of his mystery and vagueness and what not, provides other ways to salvation." Of course, lots of evangelicals would say I was listening to the Whore of Babylon, so what are you gonna do?

My favorite author, C.S. Lewis had Aslan (lion Jesus) say something along the lines of "All good you do is done in my name and counts towards heaven, even if you don't realize it." I always thought this made sense, but I don't know about the biblical basis of such a statement.

I believe that Christian groups which believe in predestination claim that people who haven't heard of Jesus weren't going to go to heaven anyway, but I always thought predestination was pretty stupid.

kanicbird
11-23-2009, 07:03 PM
God created that tribesman and knew exactly where he would be at every moment before God created the world. God is Love, and desires all to be saved. IMHO there is no way that God will condemn that tribesman for not being told about the Lord.

Now how that plays out, perhaps a form of reincarnation, perhaps a last minute visit by the Lord, perhaps Jesus will come to him directly. Also the Word states that if you seek God with all your heart you will find Him.

Markxxx
11-23-2009, 07:04 PM
You have to remember in a way God has politely told you it's really none of your business

He says "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. By the same hand I mold the righteous, I mold the unrighteous."

In otherwords, mind your own business and let God handle it :)

Nava
11-24-2009, 01:23 AM
The RCC doesn't consider you need to have been told about Jesus and accepted Him as savior; basically, you have to not have rejected him (being a decent human being is a plus) and you can accept the Infinite Love and Mercy until the latestestest instant. Nowadays there's theologians who say we can't even consider Judas as being surely condemned, and he was the classical example.

They celebrate the feasts of Esther, Queen (March 23); Solomon, King (March 13); David, King; a whole slew of prophets...

Livardo
11-24-2009, 01:33 AM
The RCC doesn't consider you need to have been told about Jesus and accepted Him as savior; basically, you have to not have rejected him (being a decent human being is a plus) and you can accept the Infinite Love and Mercy until the latestestest instant. Nowadays there's theologians who say we can't even consider Judas as being surely condemned, and he was the classical example.

They celebrate the feasts of Esther, Queen (March 23); Solomon, King (March 13); David, King; a whole slew of prophets...


That'd suck for some Muslim dude to end up in Christian heaven after devoting his whole life to Islam. Hey, wait a minute!

Nava
11-24-2009, 01:42 AM
Well, considering all those jokes about the different rooms in Heaven, I'm sure we can work up a few rooms for the Muslims.

Czarcasm
11-24-2009, 01:58 AM
Moving thread from IMHO to Great Debates.

Crowbar of Irony +3
11-24-2009, 02:19 AM
The soundest thelogical answer I ever got is 'don't attempt to guess if someone is saved'.

Der Trihs
11-24-2009, 02:27 AM
If your cousin is right and someone can still get into heaven as long as he or she have never been exposed to the Word, then evangelists are putting people into serious danger by exposing them to the Word! I would be really pissed off if I was in my small village in Africa heading towards guaranteed salvation when, with no warning, some evangelist comes by and exposes his Word to me. Now, I have to either accept Jesus into my heart to be saved or risk going to hell! Before, I was definitely going to get in. Stupid evangelist!A Pratchett fan?

The gods of the Disc have never bothered much about judging the souls of the dead, and so people only go to hell if thatís where they believe, in their deepest heart, that they deserve to go. Which they wonít do if they donít know about it. This explains why it is so important to shoot missionaries on sight.

adhay
11-24-2009, 08:04 AM
Modern Christian dogma rarely reflects actual Scripture. Fundamentalist Christians will make up whatever rules best suit them, and then cherry-pick whichever Bible verses fit their delusional beliefs, even if they have to twist the words around a bit.


This.

Jesus is quoted roughly as saying, forgive and be forgiven, condemn and be condemned. To me, this is the whole of the Law and to know oneself forgiven is THE Christian goal.

Matthew 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

Matthew 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Imo, this is allegorical. The idea that the Creator could ever condemn a part of Creation is simply silly. But while a person believes condemnation is justified in any situation, he will believe himself condemned, project that on "god" and need forgiveness. The so-called Golden Rule is actually a statement about human psychology ... as you do unto others, you do to yourself.

mswas
11-24-2009, 08:55 AM
Like through the Kitchen where you can get past the hoi polloi and the Paparazzi?

RitterSport
11-24-2009, 08:56 AM
A Pratchett fan?

Hmmm. I am a Pratchett fan, but I don't think I got the idea from him. Seems pretty obvious from that loophole about babies and tribesman getting into heaven.

There was some book that stipulated that you go where other religions think you should go. So, if any religion thought that all people other than them would go to hell, you were doomed if you weren't in that religion. Then, all it would take is another religion thinking those adherents go, and there you have it -- everyone is doomed to an eternity of suffering.

Actually, I love South Park's take on it. There a scene where pretty much everyone is in hell and all the newly damned were clamoring for answers -- "I was a devout Christian...Jew...Buddhist [whatever]...where did I go wrong? What was the answer?" And, there a guy with a clipboard who looks at it and says, "The correct answer was...the Mormons." That's about as biblically accurate as anything I've seen.

RitterSport
11-24-2009, 08:58 AM
This.

Jesus is quoted roughly as saying, forgive and be forgiven, condemn and be condemned. To me, this is the whole of the Law and to know oneself forgiven is THE Christian goal.


Imo, this is allegorical. The idea that the Creator could ever condemn a part of Creation is simply silly. But while a person believes condemnation is justified in any situation, he will believe himself condemned, project that on "god" and need forgiveness. The so-called Golden Rule is actually a statement about human psychology ... as you do unto others, you do to yourself.

I'd like a little from that tray, some of that. And, ooh, that dessert looks fabulous! I love this cafeteria!

adhay
11-24-2009, 09:30 AM
I'd like a little from that tray, some of that. And, ooh, that dessert looks fabulous! I love this cafeteria!

You help yourself.

adhay
11-24-2009, 10:13 AM
You help yourself.

But please take no more than you need. It's just good manners.

I recommend the self-realization. It's an acquired taste but seasoned with some humor, it goes down easy, a great low calorie energizer, anytime.

gonzomax
11-24-2009, 11:55 AM
God created that tribesman and knew exactly where he would be at every moment before God created the world. God is Love, and desires all to be saved. IMHO there is no way that God will condemn that tribesman for not being told about the Lord.

Now how that plays out, perhaps a form of reincarnation, perhaps a last minute visit by the Lord, perhaps Jesus will come to him directly. Also the Word states that if you seek God with all your heart you will find Him.

God is love like Dahmer is love. Eat meat on Friday, commit a sin according to his evolving list and you will be charbroiled for eternity. How is a cruel god ,love? This is such a distortion of love. I see a ruthless, cruel, and vengeful god.

Nilesta
11-24-2009, 12:03 PM
I read a book, once, called Only Begotten Daugter, when The devil says that the only way to get into heaven is to have no other group say you're going to hell. So there are like three people in heaven, cause the bible said they did, everyone else went to hell.

kaylasdad99
11-24-2009, 02:53 PM
Can't they just build a ladder?

jayjay
11-24-2009, 03:38 PM
Can't they just build a ladder?

Or a tower. Of course, you might want to hire some translators, just in case...

Tom Scud
11-24-2009, 04:00 PM
Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, Select, Start.

Lord Mondegreen
11-24-2009, 06:43 PM
I think you're supposed to take the stairs.

Can't they just build a ladder?

Or a tower.

I seem to recall that the back passage is completely out of bounds as an entry method.

Chronos
11-24-2009, 06:49 PM
Very generous of you, Tom, to use the multiplayer version of the code, when you could have been selfish, left out the "select", and just saved yourself.


Personally, the way I see it: OK, so you have to accept Jesus as your Lord to get into Heaven. But what does it mean to accept Jesus as your Lord? Near as I can figure, it means you do what Jesus wants you to do. And what does Jesus want us to do? He wants us to feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, shelter the homeless, and otherwise do whatsoever for the least of His people. Now, whether we do those things specifically because Jesus wants us to, or because Buddha or Brahma or whoever wants us to, or just because we think it's the right thing to do, I don't see that that matters: If you do what Jesus wants you to do, then you're accepting Jesus as Lord, whether you know it or not.

Attack from the 3rd dimension
11-24-2009, 07:15 PM
Very generous of you, Tom, to use the multiplayer version of the code, when you could have been selfish, left out the "select", and just saved yourself.


Personally, the way I see it: OK, so you have to accept Jesus as your Lord to get into Heaven. But what does it mean to accept Jesus as your Lord? Near as I can figure, it means you do what Jesus wants you to do. And what does Jesus want us to do? He wants us to feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, shelter the homeless, and otherwise do whatsoever for the least of His people. Now, whether we do those things specifically because Jesus wants us to, or because Buddha or Brahma or whoever wants us to, or just because we think it's the right thing to do, I don't see that that matters: If you do what Jesus wants you to do, then you're accepting Jesus as Lord, whether you know it or not.

Buddhism has a pretty open door policy on this sort of thing. In general, it is better to have a religion than not, don't become a Buddhist if you already have a religion, and if you continue to follow your version of the moral precepts, eventually you'll be born a human again, learn about Buddhism, and have a shot at enlightenment. In the meantime, follow the manual you were issued.

That said, in Buddhism heaven is a transitory state as well, so it's no big deal to be there.

YogSothoth
11-24-2009, 07:58 PM
Since its probably impossible to convince everyone of god's word, wouldn't it be easier to simply remove all references of god in every context so that everyone is ignorant of god, thus assuring heaven?

monavis
11-25-2009, 07:11 AM
I had my cousin the evangelist visit and stay at my place this past weekend. I warn him evey time not to engage me into any kind of religious debate but he never learns.

During one of our conversations I asked him if someone (like a tribesman living in some remote jungle), having never been exposed to the Word of God, would go to Hell.

His answer was that if that somebody had been exposed to the Word and had subsequently rejected the message, then this person would surely be condemned to an eternity of torture. But if that someone (like my tribesman friend) had never had the opportunity to know the Lord, then that person would get a pass at the Pearly Gates and be forgiven. I told him the Bible says the only way to get to heaven is by accepting Jesus Christ into your heart. No exceptions. He gave me the ol' "I'll get back to you with the passage".

Not exactly being a Bible expert, is there a passage that jives with what he claims?

I do not recall the exact passage, but Jesus was quoted as saying not he who says Lord,Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my father.

There is no proof that the Bible is the Word of God. Humans gave it that title. It was written, decided what was God's word or not at the council of Trent at the request of Constantine (300+ years after Jesus's time). who needed a unified Christianity. Humans also stated it was inspired, so it is his belief and if it helps him to think that way I see nothing wrong with it, but he isn't any more correct than people who believe the Koran was said to be dictated to Muhammad by an angel .

kanicbird
11-25-2009, 07:32 AM
There is no proof that the Bible is the Word of God. Humans gave it that title. It was written, decided what was God's word or not at the council of Trent at the request of Constantine (300+ years after Jesus's time). who needed a unified Christianity. Humans also stated it was inspired, so it is his belief and if it helps him to think that way I see nothing wrong with it, but he isn't any more correct than people who believe the Koran was said to be dictated to Muhammad by an angel .

Do you think God is under the authority of the council of Trent? or perhaps that despite the council of Trent God is still perfectly able to get His Word to us exactly as He wants it? Is the council of Trent a threat to God?

God tells/warns us 'lean not on your own understanding', 'His ways are not our ways', and He will teach us His ways. The above quote, if God is God, really logically doesn't make any sense.

adhay
11-25-2009, 08:32 AM
... The above quote, if God is God, really logically doesn't make any sense. I think you mean that if your finite idea of God is correct then the quote makes no sense. That your conception (or anyone else's) of God actually encompasses the infinite is what makes no sense.

And if someone can give me a clear picture of just wtf Heaven looks like, I'd appreciate it.

FriarTed
11-25-2009, 12:47 PM
I

There is no proof that the Bible is the Word of God. Humans gave it that title. It was written, decided what was God's word or not at the council of Trent at the request of Constantine (300+ years after Jesus's time). who needed a unified Christianity.

The Council of what???

Time to research your history. You're about 1200 years off.

Captain Amazing
11-25-2009, 02:21 PM
I'm assuming he meant the Council of Nicea.

Polycarp
11-25-2009, 02:38 PM
Isn't there that bit about Jesus saying "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Light. There is no way to the Father except through me."? To me, that implies that the OP's tribesman is going to be in the same boat as all the other non-believers, if there turns out to be a Heaven as Christians envision it.....

The intresting point here is that Jesus says this, not, as usually quoted by evangelcial Christians, as proof that only Christians are gonna be saved, but in answer to the worries of a disciple:

When [Judas] was gone, Jesus said, "Now is the Son of Man glorified and God is glorified in him. 32 If God is glorified in him, God will glorify the Son in himself, and will glorify him at once.

33 "My children, I will be with you only a little longer. You will look for me, and just as I told the Jews, so I tell you now: Where I am going, you cannot come.

34 "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."

36 Simon Peter asked him, "Lord, where are you going?" Jesus replied, "Where I am going, you cannot follow now, but you will follow later."

37 Peter asked, "Lord, why can't I follow you now? I will lay down my life for you."

38 Then Jesus answered, "Will you really lay down your life for me? I tell you the truth, before the rooster crows, you will disown me three times!

1 "Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going."

5 Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?"

6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

8 Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."

9 Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10 Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. (John 13:31-14:11

Bottom line, Jesus says to trust in God and in Him, that He's going away, and they cannot yet follow Him, but will follow Him later, because they know the Way. Mistaking this Way for something He'd taught, Thomas asks Him what the Way is ... and He says that He Himself is the Way, and the Truth and the Life as well.

Remember that for John this is not some itinerant Jewish rabbi but the co-eternal Son, the incarnate Word of God, through whom everything came into being, who is present wherever God is. It is God's love, God's mercy, God's grace, mediated through Jesus and His Atonement, that saves. And it is freely available -- you do not have to jump through any denominational hoops to have access to it.

begbert2
11-25-2009, 05:41 PM
And if someone can give me a clear picture of just wtf Heaven looks like, I'd appreciate it.It looks like Burbank.

jayjay
11-25-2009, 06:17 PM
It looks like Burbank.

He said Heaven, not the other place.

Find Friends
12-01-2009, 03:33 PM
God tells/warns us 'lean not on your own understanding',unless it's kanicbird's understanding.

'His ways are not our ways',unless it's kanicbird's ways we are talking about.

and He will teach us His waysthrough his prophet, kanicbird.

... really logically doesn't make any sense.
:dubious::confused::rolleyes:

Ahhh, the irony!

Tom Scud
12-01-2009, 03:47 PM
It was written, decided what was God's word or not at the council of Trent at the request of Constantine (300+ years after Jesus's time). who needed a unified Christianity.

The Council of what???

Time to research your history. You're about 1200 years off.

I'm assuming he meant the Council of Nicea.

Which of course is also not correct as the date when the Biblical canon was set - a quick glance through wikipedia isn't helping much, though the (shaky-looking) biblical canon article seems to indicate it was more or less set by the mid-200s.

Perils of learning your church history from Dan Brown.

Revenant Threshold
12-01-2009, 03:59 PM
Also the Word states that if you seek God with all your heart you will find Him. How would one go about finding something you don't know and aren't motivated to look for?

Chief Pedant
12-01-2009, 05:30 PM
I am not aware of any passage in the New Testament which provides very direct evidence that the category of People Who Have Never Heard somehow make it into heaven.

In general, the theme for salvation is to believe and behave. It's not enough to just believe; "You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder." James 2:19 NIV Nor is it enough to just behave. Briefly, works are neither sufficient nor absolutely required; they are a manifestation that belief has been embraced in such a way that one's core nature is changed from a predisposition to sin without caring to a predisposition to try and behave (that's my paraphrase of a lot of theology).

At the time of Christ, the preceding history was that of a chosen people versus everyone else. Christianity opened up a way of salvation to all--not just the Jews--but that way was still through Hearing the Word, Believing it, and Manifesting that Belief with a change in behaviour. The reason for the Great Commission to spread this good news was to save the lost; they wouldn't be lost and need saving if it were simply sufficient to have Never Heard.

"How, then, can people call on someone they have not believed? And how can they believe in someone they have not heard about? And how can they hear without someone preaching?" Romans 10:14 NIV

In short, the lost are lost, from a Scriptural standpoint.

Because this conflicts with our sense of fairness, there are many who believe that Jesus Christ's redeeming work redeemed all mankind, or that those who never heard will not be condemned--it just doesn't seem fair. You will not find direct support for that notion in the Bible, however, and will have to rely on drawing inferences from such passages as "In the same way, it is not the will of your Father in heaven that one of these little ones should be lost." Matthew 18:14 NIV

I might add that the whole concept of heaven and hell is a titchy bit vague, but that's another story. With the exception of John's Revelation (and he seems pretty far out on a limb) the constructs are a little vagueish.

begbert2
12-01-2009, 05:46 PM
Because this conflicts with our sense of fairness, there are many who believe that Jesus Christ's redeeming work redeemed all mankind, or that those who never heard will not be condemned--it just doesn't seem fair. You will not find direct support for that notion in the Bible, however, and will have to rely on drawing inferences from such passages as "In the same way, it is not the will of your Father in heaven that one of these little ones should be lost." Matthew 18:14 NIVIn my opinion, huge chunks of Christian theology (omnibenevolence, I'm looking at you) is contructed to satisfy some desire on the part of the followers, be it for fairness, security, morality, or whatever. The ability to cherrypick passages that can be read to support your preferred beliefs is helpful but not strictly necessary.

Chief Pedant
12-01-2009, 05:55 PM
In my opinion, huge chunks of Christian theology (omnibenevolence, I'm looking at you) is contructed to satisfy some desire on the part of the followers, be it for fairness, security, morality, or whatever. The ability to cherrypick passages that can be read to support your preferred beliefs is helpful but not strictly necessary.

All passages are cherry-picked. The Bible does not read as a coherent, internally-consistent text since it was written by so many people over such a long period.

kanicbird
12-01-2009, 06:26 PM
How would one go about finding something you don't know

I believe within the heart of each person is the desire for their creator. It may take years, or lifetimes (yes many lives IMHO), but the desire is there and will activate one day.

As for where to search it doesn't matter, as long as you search as best as you know how. It's God's job to recognize that and lead you.

and aren't motivated to look for?

Well then it would be hard to seek the Lord with all your heart, may get some brownie points for trying.

adhay
12-01-2009, 06:30 PM
I believe within the heart of each person is the desire for their creator. It may take years, or lifetimes (yes many lives IMHO), but the desire is there and will activate one day.

As for where to search it doesn't matter, as long as you search as best as you know how. It's God's job to recognize that and lead you.
...


I suggest looking within.

BobLibDem
12-02-2009, 07:32 AM
All you need to do is make that turn at Albuquerque.

Revenant Threshold
12-02-2009, 07:44 AM
I believe within the heart of each person is the desire for their creator. It may take years, or lifetimes (yes many lives IMHO), but the desire is there and will activate one day. But if you have no knowledge of what you search for, then essentially all you would have would be some sense that there is something missing from your life, I would guess - which isn't very specific. As for where to search it doesn't matter, as long as you search as best as you know how. It's God's job to recognize that and lead you. Well, it kind of does matter, since I believe you've posted in the past about the ability for people to be misled, either by other people, by organisations or philosophies, or by demons. And if you have no knowledge on what you're looking for, you're particularly susceptible to someone coming over and saying, "Here. This is what you're after. Trust me." As you yourself are doing now. Well then it would be hard to seek the Lord with all your heart, may get some brownie points for trying. I would argue that it is impossible to seek something with all your heart - if you don't understand what something is, you can't ever have the entirety of your being on the hunt for it. Logically, if you're hunting something you don't know, you're actually looking for something other than the actual thing. If I go looking for my keys, but I don't know or only know a bit about what a key is, then the idea I have in my head, the parameters by which i'm searching, are going to be different.

Gyrate
12-02-2009, 08:15 AM
My understanding is that you can't get to heaven on roller skates 'cause you'd roll right by those pearly gates, you can't get to heaven in a rocking chair 'cause a rocking chair won't get you there, you can't get to heaven in a limousine 'cause the Lord don't sell no gasoline and you can't get to heaven in a motorcar 'cause a motorcar won't go that far.

Maybe there's a bus...

Tom Scud
12-02-2009, 09:54 AM
I'm pretty sure there's a stairway.

(You're welcome for the earworm).

Diogenes the Cynic
12-02-2009, 10:54 AM
25On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"

26"What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"

27He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"

28"You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."
(Luke 10:25-28)



Further along in this story, Jesus is asked to define "neighbor" and he tells the parable of the Good Samaritan, in which a hated Samaritan (bitter enemies of the Jews at the time) shows himself to be more worthy of the title by his actions (showing mercy and compassion) than the priest and the Levite do by their ethnic and religious identities (this was a more radical idea to Jesus' audience, for whom tribal identity was paramount, than it sounds like to us).

There is also the parable of the Sheep and the Goats. "whatever you do for the least among you, you do for me."


So Jesus is pretty clear about what it takes, and specific belief does not enter into it.

FriarTed
12-02-2009, 11:11 AM
25On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"

26"What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"

27He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"

28"You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."
(Luke 10:25-28)



Further along in this story, Jesus is asked to define "neighbor" and he tells the parable of the Good Samaritan, in which a hated Samaritan (bitter enemies of the Jews at the time) shows himself to be more worthy of the title by his actions (showing mercy and compassion) than the priest and the Levite do by their ethnic and religious identities (this was a more radical idea to Jesus' audience, for whom tribal identity was paramount, than it sounds like to us).

There is also the parable of the Sheep and the Goats. "whatever you do for the least among you, you do for me."


So Jesus is pretty clear about what it takes, and specific belief does not enter into it.

Well, except for this-

" 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'

"The Lord your God" in question being YHWH.

Revenant Threshold
12-02-2009, 11:56 AM
Well, except for this-

" 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'

"The Lord your God" in question being YHWH. Only if that requires belief, which that particular quote alone doesn't seem to specify.

Diogenes the Cynic
12-02-2009, 12:00 PM
Well, except for this-

" 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'

"The Lord your God" in question being YHWH.
That's one of the reasons I cited the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats. Jesus defined loving God as loving "the least among you."

monavis
12-04-2009, 08:21 AM
God created that tribesman and knew exactly where he would be at every moment before God created the world. God is Love, and desires all to be saved. IMHO there is no way that God will condemn that tribesman for not being told about the Lord.

Now how that plays out, perhaps a form of reincarnation, perhaps a last minute visit by the Lord, perhaps Jesus will come to him directly. Also the Word states that if you seek God with all your heart you will find Him.

If God wanted all people to be saved,why did Jesus say He spoke in parables so that some would not understand, lest they understood and be saved?

Sounds like God didn't want some to be saved or Jesus would have made his message clear to everyone.

monavis
12-04-2009, 08:28 AM
The Council of what???

Time to research your history. You're about 1200 years off.

Yes I did write the Council of Trent, but I meant Nicaea,thanks for correcting me!I did know that it was in the 300+ that was Constatine's time.

monavis
12-04-2009, 08:46 AM
Which of course is also not correct as the date when the Biblical canon was set - a quick glance through wikipedia isn't helping much, though the (shaky-looking) biblical canon article seems to indicate it was more or less set by the mid-200s.

Perils of learning your church history from Dan Brown.

Constantine was responsible for setting a standard for Christian beliefs when he had the Bishops of Rome and the Orthodox meet and form the creed. Many books were discarded as not being inspired, but that doesn't mean any writings were inspired.

I personally believe all that is written is the word of humans, and humans decide what is God's word or what is claimed to be inspired,or holy. It is a matter of what human you believe in. To me a supreme being would not need slaves, servants or anything as he would have no needs being complete in Him , her, or it self.

The writings have been written and translated so much over the centuries and so much conflicting translations that it is nothing to worry about, like Aesop's fables the storys have some good to tell. No original writings exist so we have no way of knowing for sure what anyone really said,just trust and believe in the translators.

Oh by the way, Dan Browns books are not considered history, just fiction!

raindog
12-04-2009, 09:14 AM
I do not recall the exact passage, but Jesus was quoted as saying not he who says Lord,Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my father.

There is no proof that the Bible is the Word of God. Humans gave it that title. It was written, decided what was God's word or not at the council of Trent at the request of Constantine (300+ years after Jesus's time). who needed a unified Christianity. Humans also stated it was inspired, so it is his belief and if it helps him to think that way I see nothing wrong with it, but he isn't any more correct than people who believe the Koran was said to be dictated to Muhammad by an angel .
Haven't you read the bible 24 times? Isn't that what you told me? Why would you not remember that? Isn't in Matt 7:21ish?

Skammer
12-04-2009, 10:39 AM
Wow, a lot of ignorance in this thread about pretty well established orthodox (but by no means universal) Christian thought.
I told him the Bible says the only way to get to heaven is by accepting Jesus Christ into your heart. No exceptions. You're close, but wrong. The Bible says that Jesus is the only way to heaven:
John 14:6 "Jesus answered, 'I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.'"
Acts 4:10-12 "Then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed. He is
'the stone you builders rejected,
which has become the capstone.' Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."
Most Christian traditions believe and teach that knowing and placing one's faith in Jesus is the a sure ticket to salvation. However, God is Just, and does not condemn people who have never heard of Jesus. The apostle Paul went on to say that certain things about God can be known in Nature or in ourselves, and we are judged by God according to how we respond to what God has revealed to us.

In C.S. Lewis' Narnia books, there is a character who is not a Narnian and does not belive in the Christ-character Aslan. He worships a false God, Tash. But in the book he is saved because, as Aslan tells us, everything he worshipped in Tash was actually Aslan, only the man did not recognize his true identity.

So why do Christians evangelize? Well, the first reason is that is was the last command of Jesus. Also because Christians believe that people are better off in the here-and-now the more they know about Jesus. It's not all about what happens when you die, it's just as much about reconciled with God today.

ETA: To answer your question "Is there any other way to get to heaven?" Most Christian traditions would say 1) No, it is not possible to get to heaven apart from Jesus, but 2) It is not necessarily required to know that Jesus is the way God has saved humanity.

Most Christian theologians would say "We know who is saved (those who have placed their faith in Jesus). We really don't know who hasn't been saved, but we trust God to be that judge and not us."

adhay
12-04-2009, 11:30 AM
...
Most Christian theologians would say "We know who is saved (those who have placed their faith in Jesus). We really don't know who hasn't been saved, but we trust God to be that judge and not us."

What makes this so difficult?

Matthew 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

Matthew 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Tom Scud
12-04-2009, 11:39 AM
Constantine was responsible for setting a standard for Christian beliefs when he had the Bishops of Rome and the Orthodox meet and form the creed. Many books were discarded as not being inspired, but that doesn't mean any writings were inspired.


Creed =/= canon - the Council of Nicea set a common creed, which involves how the books in the canon are interpreted; it did not address the canon, which was more-or-less set by the early 200s (cite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_of_the_New_Testament_canon) to a better wikipedia article than the one I looked at earlier, which goes into considerable mind-numbing detail about the "more-or-less" above).

SteveG1
12-04-2009, 11:41 AM
I had my cousin the evangelist visit and stay at my place this past weekend. I warn him evey time not to engage me into any kind of religious debate but he never learns.
Not to sidetrack or derail, but if he refuses to respect your wishes in YOUR home, why do you put up with it?

Tom Scud
12-04-2009, 11:44 AM
What makes this so difficult?

Seems like a good illustration of the difference between "simple" and "easy".

kanicbird
12-04-2009, 11:57 AM
If God wanted all people to be saved,why did Jesus say He spoke in parables so that some would not understand, lest they understood and be saved?

Sounds like God didn't want some to be saved or Jesus would have made his message clear to everyone.

One aspect of a 'god' is the ability to create reality. The person has been given free will to chose his own god. When someone who chooses a god that is not the Lord God, that god gets to define reality for that person, which includes the ability to hide certain things from the believer of this lesser god. It is God allowing the gods to be gods, or else they wouldn't be gods.

The person has to open their heart to the Love of the Father in order to start hearing and seeing the things of God.

Parables allow a association between their situation and the story, hopefully they will start seeing the patterns if they are starting to open themselves. It's easier to here a story about a servant then to be told you are a servant when that person can't see how he is serving anyone.

Attack from the 3rd dimension
12-04-2009, 12:10 PM
It is God allowing the gods to be gods, or else they wouldn't be gods.

If you liked this sentence, you may also enjoy: "Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo_buffalo_buffalo)

SteveG1
12-04-2009, 01:33 PM
I kind of like the Pratchett idea - shoot em before they can do any harm.

Predestination? If it's predestination, your fate is already decided.
Acts vs faith? One says faith is all, another says faith must be accompanied by acts, another says acts matter more.
Vengeful God? Forgiving God? Right church? Wrong church? Everyone has a chance at salvation? Only 300 (or is it 3000?) will be saved?

It all sounds too much like it depends on which idividual or religion you listen to, what their "agenda" is, where they got their ideas from, and what they cherry picked or disarded along the way.

Basically, if you cherry pick the right things for yourself, you could either be saved no matter what, or damned no matter what.

begbert2
12-04-2009, 03:01 PM
One aspect of a 'god' is the ability to create reality. The person has been given free will to chose his own god. When someone who chooses a god that is not the Lord God, that god gets to define reality for that person, which includes the ability to hide certain things from the believer of this lesser god. It is God allowing the gods to be gods, or else they wouldn't be gods.I've never figured out if you think that these 'gods' already existed before they were believed in, or whether the belief actually creates the 'gods' ex nihilo. Either way it's quite odd; I mean, seriously, there was always a flying spaghetti monster floating around, adjusting global warming in inverse proportion to the number of pirates around? Or, when somebody started believing in this nutty thing, was the FSM created and was history retroactively altered so that the FSM had been manipulating pirates all along, when it hadn't been around and doing so, um, before?

And in either case, if I invented a god that can get me into heaven without your God's permission, wouldn't that be just as good as if I invented your God and then got into heaven by doing things his more difficult way?

adhay
12-04-2009, 03:10 PM
Seems like a good illustration of the difference between "simple" and "easy".

Quite.:)
Nonetheless, sufficient.

fiddlesticks
12-04-2009, 03:20 PM
It would have been so much easier if God had waited until the year 2000 to send Jesus...then he could have had a blog.

SteveG1
12-04-2009, 04:13 PM
It would have been so much easier if God had waited until the year 2000 to send Jesus...then he could have had a blog.

This. At least then we could cut through all the bullshit.

adhay
12-04-2009, 04:59 PM
...
And if someone can give me a clear picture of just wtf Heaven looks like, I'd appreciate it.
Please?

What would I accept as minimal amenities to die for in a place I will spend Eternity at the cost of major effort on my part right now. At the the very fucking least I don't want to live with assholes holding grudges. That's the hell we live in.

My Prayer
Forgiveness, Now.

E-Sabbath
12-04-2009, 07:12 PM
As I understand, there is exactly one way to get into Heaven. The Lord decides you belong there. And His ways are mysterious. All we have are the words of the prophets, etc, on how to live, but just because you live by them is no assurance you will enter heaven, nor is it sure that not following them will keep you out. To insist otherwise is to say that you have dominion over the Lord's choices. And that's just blasphemy.

Negative Lite
12-05-2009, 07:14 AM
I told him the Bible says the only way to get to heaven is by accepting Jesus Christ into your heart. No exceptions. He gave me the ol' "I'll get back to you with the passage".

Not exactly being a Bible expert, is there a passage that jives with what he claims?There is no Bible passage which talks about how to gain an afterlife in heaven. That's because Jesus and the First Century Christians did not believe in heaven as a destination for humans.

Early Christianity was an apocalyptic Jewish sect which taught of an end times in which the Kingdom of God would be revealed on earth. At that time, among other things, certain Christians would be resurrected in their bodies. A fully bodily resurrection, as opposed to a spiritual afterlife. Their graves would open up and they'd walk out, like Lazarus. They would then enjoy eternal life, not in heaven but on earth. This would be a restoration of Eden - kind of like a reboot to the conditions of Adam and Eve pre-Fall.

Early Christians did not teach of Hell. (Jesus mentions a Greek hell in one of his parables, but doesn't teach that it literally exists).

Thus, the Bible teaches that everybody dies forever and rots in their graves, *except* that *some* people might be resurrected in their bodies at the end times to live an eternal life on earth. Nobody goes to heaven. Nobody goes to hell.

So who gets resurrected? Now we enter the realm of educated conjecture. You see, Jesus was a Mystery Teacher and the methodology of preparing one's body for a bodily resurrection at the end times was a secret guarded behind parables and mysterious sayings. We have only hints. So, you'll find no Bible quotation that tells you point blank who gets resurrected and how.

But we can make some educated guesses based on what we know about the early Christians. For one, baptism must have been a prerequisite. This would have been a full body dunking in a body of running water, not just a few sprinkles on the forehead like some Christians practice today. The baptism was a ritual cleansing of sin. Since sin represented decay, you needed to be cleansed of that decay to be assured a resurrection. Second, partaking in the ritual of the Eucharist would prepare the body for a resurrection in imitation of Christ. By eating the body and drinking the blood of Christ you physically participate in the resurrection. Third, it appears that early Christians took a radical anti-sex stance. In fact, early Christians even preached against sex *within* marriage, because procreation is all part of the slavery of the cycle of birth, death, and decay. To resurrect bodily, we would have to break that cycle. And there may have been more steps needed.

So it looks like baptism + Eucharist + no sex gives you a shot at a bodily resurrection at the end times.

As for all this nonsense about heaven and hell, that all got invented later and got grafted onto Christianity. If you want to know about that stuff, ask a Sunday School teacher. But there's nothing in the Bible about it.

So, under the beliefs taught by Jesus, it would seem that our hypothetical Amazonian tribesmen have hardly any hope of getting resurrected. But then again, the early Christians thought that scarcely anybody would be resurrected anyway.

Negative Lite
12-05-2009, 07:24 AM
The Bible says that Jesus is the only way to heaven:

Acts 4:10-12 "Then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed. He is
'the stone you builders rejected,
which has become the capstone.' Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved." Skammer, this quotation has nothing to do with a spiritual afterlife in heaven. The statement is expressly directed at the Jews and refers to "salvation." For the Jews, "salvation" meant only one thing: a national salvation, i.e., liberation from Roman oppression. It did not refer to a spiritual afterlife. Just as Moses brought "salvation" to the Jews by delivering them from Egypt, the author of Luke/Acts is predicting that a resurrected Christ would destroy Rome and restore the nation of Israel at the end times.

FriarTed
12-05-2009, 08:21 AM
Skammer, this quotation has nothing to do with a spiritual afterlife in heaven. The statement is expressly directed at the Jews and refers to "salvation." For the Jews, "salvation" meant only one thing: a national salvation, i.e., liberation from Roman oppression. It did not refer to a spiritual afterlife. Just as Moses brought "salvation" to the Jews by delivering them from Egypt, the author of Luke/Acts is predicting that a resurrected Christ would destroy Rome and restore the nation of Israel at the end times.

Gotta be an "either/or" instead of a "both/and"?

In Luke & Acts, I see a lot of Gentiles & Romans called to faith in Christ, no warnings of destruction of the Empire, but a lot of warnings of destruction to Judea.

Also, no calls in any of the Gospels to radical celibacy. SOME early Christians advocated it, a few orthodox but more were Gnostic.

The concept of a spiritual afterlife was well known to the Jews, as the Apocryphal & Pseudipigrapha shows, and was accepted along with the physical resurrection and Earthly restoration by many Pharisaic Jews. Jesus also refers to a spiritual conscious Paradise & Hades in Luke 16, promises Paradise that day to the repentant thief at the Crucifixion, and throughout the Gospels teaches a general resurrection in which many peoples (all humanity perhaps) will rise to face Him, either for aionion life or judgement.

monavis
12-05-2009, 08:40 AM
Haven't you read the bible 24 times? Isn't that what you told me? Why would you not remember that? Isn't in Matt 7:21ish?

I didn't say I memorized the Bible so what is the point you are making? I also do not remember the names of all the kids I went to school with, so I am not going to argue the point, but I am glad that you were able to memorize it and save me time of looking it up.

monavis
12-05-2009, 08:44 AM
One aspect of a 'god' is the ability to create reality. The person has been given free will to chose his own god. When someone who chooses a god that is not the Lord God, that god gets to define reality for that person, which includes the ability to hide certain things from the believer of this lesser god. It is God allowing the gods to be gods, or else they wouldn't be gods.

The person has to open their heart to the Love of the Father in order to start hearing and seeing the things of God.

Parables allow a association between their situation and the story, hopefully they will start seeing the patterns if they are starting to open themselves. It's easier to here a story about a servant then to be told you are a servant when that person can't see how he is serving anyone.

How can you prove what you see or believe is truth? I respect your right to believe, but do not think much of your God, and try as I may, it makes no sense to me. I guess I could say God inspired me to not believe in your God.

adhay
12-05-2009, 09:27 AM
How can you prove what you see or believe is truth? I respect your right to believe, but do not think much of your God, and try as I may, it makes no sense to me. I guess I could say God inspired me to not believe in your God.

Believing is seeing,

Polycarp
12-05-2009, 11:23 AM
I thought some lady already bought those stairs. Does she allow other people to use them?

Well, it's inferrable from the text, which also has some evangelical points to it: "If you get there and find all the stores have been closed, with The Word you can get what you came for." :p

MacTech
12-05-2009, 11:45 AM
"Heaven" is an abomination unto Nuggan...

then again, what *isn't* an Abomination unto Nuggan....

raindog
12-05-2009, 12:59 PM
I didn't say I memorized the Bible so what is the point you are making? I also do not remember the names of all the kids I went to school with, so I am not going to argue the point, but I am glad that you were able to memorize it and save me time of looking it up.
Between memorizing it and recalling any of it is a lot of ground. I'm puzzled why you don't ever seem to occupy it.

Czarcasm
12-05-2009, 01:07 PM
Believing is seeing,Using what definition of "seeing"?

adhay
12-05-2009, 02:14 PM
Using what definition of "seeing"?

Let me rephrase: All perception is the reflection of projected belief. Seek not to change the world, but rather, change your mind.

Again, look within.

Diogenes the Cynic
12-05-2009, 04:07 PM
Let me rephrase: All perception is the reflection of projected belief.
No it isn't. Have you been watching that What the #$*! Do We Know movie or something?

kanicbird
12-05-2009, 05:40 PM
I've never figured out if you think that these 'gods' already existed before they were believed in, or whether the belief actually creates the 'gods' ex nihilo. Either way it's quite odd; I mean, seriously, there was always a flying spaghetti monster floating around, adjusting global warming in inverse proportion to the number of pirates around? Or, when somebody started believing in this nutty thing, was the FSM created and was history retroactively altered so that the FSM had been manipulating pirates all along, when it hadn't been around and doing so, um, before?

IMHO the idea, starting point, of a new god may represent the offspring of a established god, or it can be a remake of a existing one.

And in either case, if I invented a god that can get me into heaven without your God's permission, wouldn't that be just as good as if I invented your God and then got into heaven by doing things his more difficult way?

Saying to God's Son Jesus that you accept Him as you God is too hard?

jayjay
12-05-2009, 10:30 PM
Saying to God's Son Jesus that you accept Him as you God is too hard?

If it's intended to be sincere rather than an empty attempt to game the system, yes. I'm pretty sure that God, if he exists and has the attributes that the Abrahamic religions ascribe to him, would know the difference between sincere expression of belief and invitation and someone saying the words, "just in case".

SteveG1
12-06-2009, 12:42 AM
If it's intended to be sincere rather than an empty attempt to game the system, yes. I'm pretty sure that God, if he exists and has the attributes that the Abrahamic religions ascribe to him, would know the difference between sincere expression of belief and invitation and someone saying the words, "just in case".If He can't tell the difference, then He wouldn't be much of a God, would he? Makes me wonder about people who say "I have accepted Jesus" (mouth the words) and then proceed to violate pretty near all of his teachings.

BigT
12-06-2009, 03:39 AM
What makes this so difficult?

Why assume that one set of verses is the entire set of requirements? Why assume that you can know whether the other person has truly forgiven or not?

Most Christians I know base their indecisiveness on Romans 14:4

[quot]eWho are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.[/quote]

(I'm sure there are similar verses elsewhere, but I tried to memorize Romans as a kid*.)

*It's for something called Bible Quiz, where you they asked you quiz bowl like questions about the Bible. In your teen years, it focuses on a particular book, and all the best quizzers have the book memorized. I think it's cool that it didn't get into the theology.

adhay
12-06-2009, 04:33 AM
Why assume that one set of verses is the entire set of requirements?

Why not? If A then B, if not A then not B. Seems pretty cut and dried to me. But let me further explain.
... to know oneself forgiven is THE Christian goal.
....
Imo, this [these verses and the rest of the Bible for that matter] is allegorical. The idea that the Creator could ever condemn a part of Creation is simply silly. But while a person believes condemnation is justified in any situation, he will believe himself condemned, project that on "god" and need forgiveness. The so-called Golden Rule is actually a statement about human psychology ... as you do unto others, you do to yourself.

As to your other question,
Why assume that you can know whether the other person has truly forgiven or not? ..., I don't believe I have.

Superhal
12-06-2009, 05:13 AM
Your cousin's premise is so fundamentally absurd, it simply falls apart. There's no need to get a passage or anything.

If the only way to into heaven is through Jesus, that means Noah, Moses, Sampson, David, Joseph, Cain, Abel, Adam, Eve and everybody else who lived before Jesus is in Hell.

Malacandra
12-06-2009, 07:39 AM
Your cousin's premise is so fundamentally absurd, it simply falls apart. There's no need to get a passage or anything.

If the only way to into heaven is through Jesus, that means Noah, Moses, Sampson, David, Joseph, Cain, Abel, Adam, Eve and everybody else who lived before Jesus is in Hell.

That's an old (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrowing_of_Hell) one, that is.

Revenant Threshold
12-06-2009, 07:42 AM
That's an old (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrowing_of_Hell) one, that is. So far as I can tell, that only partially solves the problem; these righteous people were still in Hell for some period of time.

FriarTed
12-06-2009, 07:53 AM
So far as I can tell, that only partially solves the problem; these righteous people were still in Hell for some period of time.

They were in Sheol/Hades, which is not quite the same as today's conception of Hell. There was a more pleasant area for the righteous. They just were outside of direct fellowship with God.

kanicbird
12-06-2009, 08:06 AM
Your cousin's premise is so fundamentally absurd, it simply falls apart. There's no need to get a passage or anything.

If the only way to into heaven is through Jesus, that means Noah, Moses, Sampson, David, Joseph, Cain, Abel, Adam, Eve and everybody else who lived before Jesus is in Hell.
Jesus was before them as He is eternal:


"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

Along with John 1, show that Jesus was always there. Reading the life of King David and I am convinced that he knew Jesus personally, though those around him were blinded to Jesus.

kanicbird
12-06-2009, 08:12 AM
If it's intended to be sincere rather than an empty attempt to game the system, yes. I'm pretty sure that God, if he exists and has the attributes that the Abrahamic religions ascribe to him, would know the difference between sincere expression of belief and invitation and someone saying the words, "just in case".
You are right, in that it is a true request of the heart when also your mind allows it. In that respect it's not easy, as many have built walls around our hearts to protect us from pain in our lives. As such our hearts have become prisoner to our minds (reasoning, denial, etc.). For many it takes a time of total desperation that the mind actually listens to it's prisoner and takes the advice of the heart.

Our mind have to yield control to our heart, which is also our soul, for this to happen. It is also at this time where our hearts begin to heal.

Chief Pedant
12-06-2009, 08:42 AM
Wow, a lot of ignorance in this thread about pretty well established orthodox (but by no means universal) Christian thought.
You're close, but wrong. The Bible says that Jesus is the only way to heaven:


Most Christian traditions believe and teach that knowing and placing one's faith in Jesus is the a sure ticket to salvation. However, God is Just, and does not condemn people who have never heard of Jesus. The apostle Paul went on to say that certain things about God can be known in Nature or in ourselves, and we are judged by God according to how we respond to what God has revealed to us.

In C.S. Lewis' Narnia books, there is a character who is not a Narnian and does not belive in the Christ-character Aslan. He worships a false God, Tash. But in the book he is saved because, as Aslan tells us, everything he worshipped in Tash was actually Aslan, only the man did not recognize his true identity.

So why do Christians evangelize? Well, the first reason is that is was the last command of Jesus. Also because Christians believe that people are better off in the here-and-now the more they know about Jesus. It's not all about what happens when you die, it's just as much about reconciled with God today.

ETA: To answer your question "Is there any other way to get to heaven?" Most Christian traditions would say 1) No, it is not possible to get to heaven apart from Jesus, but 2) It is not necessarily required to know that Jesus is the way God has saved humanity.

Most Christian theologians would say "We know who is saved (those who have placed their faith in Jesus). We really don't know who hasn't been saved, but we trust God to be that judge and not us."

(Bolding mine: )

Per the OP's request, can you cite any Biblical support for this view? It has become more widely accepted only in recent Christian traditions and only, as I mentioned before in Post 53, if one takes a handful of passages and draws inferences from them to support this notion of fairness. It has no direct support in Scripture.

I might add that "knowing" is not enough, and neither is belief. There must be a conversion from wickedness.

kanicbird
12-06-2009, 09:06 AM
(Bolding mine: )

Per the OP's request, can you cite any Biblical support for this view? It has become more widely accepted only in recent Christian traditions and only, as I mentioned before in Post 53, if one takes a handful of passages and draws inferences from them to support this notion of fairness. It has no direct support in Scripture.

For one:

It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

I might add that "knowing" is not enough, and neither is belief. There must be a conversion from wickedness.

Which is repentance, This is the act of God, once someone received the Spirit of God in them, they will not be able to live with themselves in a state of sin, as God and sin can't co-exist. They will have to admit their mistake and surrender to the Holy Spirit which the Holy Spirit will take control and guide that person out of that sinful tendency.

monavis
12-07-2009, 09:21 AM
Between memorizing it and recalling any of it is a lot of ground. I'm puzzled why you don't ever seem to occupy it.

I do not understand what you mean by occupy it? I meant I did not recall the exact chapter, or verse. What it said was more important to me than what chapter ,author,or verse it was. I just remembered that I had read it in the Bible. Why does that bother you?

monavis
12-07-2009, 09:28 AM
Why not? If A then B, if not A then not B. Seems pretty cut and dried to me. But let me further explain.


As to your other question,
, I don't believe I have.

You can't know anything about God until you can prove it, it is just belief and is not in truth to state you know. If a god made you as you are, then of course he wouldn't punish you for your faults that he created you with,and you would not need his forgivness. Unless of course he would like to play games, create a being that had faults and punish him for having them.

adhay
12-07-2009, 11:42 AM
You can't know anything about God until you can prove it, it is just belief and is not in truth to state you know. =If a god made you as you are, then of course he wouldn't punish you for your faults that he created you with,and you would not need his forgivness. Unless of course he would like to play games, create a being that had faults and punish him for having them.
[emphasis mine]
Reality is changeless; that's how you distiguish it from perception.

"God" is a three letter word , a symbol which stands for a concept (finite by nature and incapable of containing or defining the Infinite) and there are as many of these concepts as there are people no matter what their religious (or non-religious) persuasions. Atheists simply deny the the reasonableness of their culturally derived concepts and with good reason.

My concept (faith/belief) is that God is the All In All, mathematically speaking, the set of all sets and nothing exists outside of Him. Creation is His One Son and each of us irrevocably share in that.

But from our finite human perspective, having a concept of God implies also a concept of a finite self and it's relationship to God. This "self", separate from and in competition with "the rest of Creation" is imaginary but because we believe it so it seems quite real. It is from this illusion that Jesus (another concept, of course) came to "save" us.

So, what is my conceptual relationship to God, Jesus and the Universe?

We are each His Son, just like Jesus. The only difference between JC and us is that in Him was developed the ability to forgive unconditionally which is how healing is accomplished. He also assures us in John 14:12
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father..

Which means,

The only choice free will offers in human experience is to forgive or not, to recognize our unity or to judge "others" on appearances The only way to recognize that you have forgiveness is to give it. Giving something is the only proof offered that you have received it. And, because God is merciful in that our tolerance for pain is finite, all will eventually come to this realization.

We are all we will ever know of God. Does He forgive? The answer is within.
Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

begbert2
12-07-2009, 02:11 PM
IMHO the idea, starting point, of a new god may represent the offspring of a established god, or it can be a remake of a existing one.Such odd effects this would have on pirates and global warming...

Saying to God's Son Jesus that you accept Him as you God is too hard?Actually it's completely impossible - I don't know who this Jesus of yours is, and how he differs from any number of other Jesuses, including any that I may cause to pop into existence by merely believing in them.

It's something like putting a full-page ad in the paper saying "Mike, I love you!" - which 'Mike' is that speaking to? All of them? Any of them? What if I don't know any Mikes - would I have just committed myself to the first one that wanderered to my door - even if it's not the same Mike that you found/created?

Of course, it gets even worse when you realize (which you won't) that as a general rule, no Mikes come at all. And absent a referent to accept, it's literally impossible to accept anything as your God. You have to know what you're accepting first, either my meeting it if it's real, or defining it in your mind if it's not.

jayjay
12-07-2009, 02:18 PM
You are right, in that it is a true request of the heart when also your mind allows it. In that respect it's not easy, as many have built walls around our hearts to protect us from pain in our lives. As such our hearts have become prisoner to our minds (reasoning, denial, etc.). For many it takes a time of total desperation that the mind actually listens to it's prisoner and takes the advice of the heart.

Our mind have to yield control to our heart, which is also our soul, for this to happen. It is also at this time where our hearts begin to heal.

Are you being metaphoric, or do you actually believe that your heart has anything to do with anything other than pumping your blood through your body? All of our emotions and thoughts come from our brains, with occasional help from the various glands, regardless of whether those thoughts are of the warm, tender variety or the cold, logical variety.

Does the soul reside in the bodily organ we call the heart? Could you point one out to me the next time the Learning Channel has an open-heart operation on?

Atheists are as capable of loving other people as anyone else is...how is the fact that they are apparently incapable of forcing themselves to love a being they have no evidence for an indication that their "hearts" aren't working if they can love another person?

kanicbird
12-07-2009, 03:51 PM
Are you being metaphoric, or do you actually believe that your heart has anything to do with anything other than pumping your blood through your body?
IIRC the Hebrew word for soul is heart, though it may be spirit/heart. Either way I believe our physical heart is just a part, or reflection of our soul. Our soul being spiritual but has a physical manifestation as our physical heart.

As such in coming to Jesus He has shown me that yes we can hear from our soul/heart and connect with others with our hearts. It is extremely awesome, sometimes you can actually be the other person in yourself.

I also believe much of the heart disease today is spiritual, a disconnection of the heart to our minds. Our heart is isolated and eventually dies.

All of our emotions and thoughts come from our brains, with occasional help from the various glands, regardless of whether those thoughts are of the warm, tender variety or the cold, logical variety.


I and many teachers of meditative practices would disagree. Yes we have been given means of physical detection and reactions from our physical minds.

Does the soul reside in the bodily organ we call the heart? Could you point one out to me the next time the Learning Channel has an open-heart operation on?

Well there are documented cases of heart transplant patients that recall memories of the donor. The soul AFAIK is our being, which the physical manifestation is the heart, which allows and supplies all the body through it's physical experience.


Atheists are as capable of loving other people as anyone else is...how is the fact that they are apparently incapable of forcing themselves to love a being they have no evidence for an indication that their "hearts" aren't working if they can love another person?

IMHO this is two fold:
1 - God has His people in every aspect of life, including Atheism, as John the Baptist was born with the Holy Spirit already upon him, as he was Elijah, there are many who have the Holy Spirit and who are Sheppards of the Lord, who know the Lord but in body don't. God uses them to steer people to the Lord even if they don't know it. They have already surrendered their life to God and God decides how to use them.

2 - Many people, including myself, assumed we knew what 'Love' is, and was able to express what we thought 'love' was to others. We have gone though life having parent/child form of love and g/f b/f marital partner form of love, that we assumes we love that person, which in a way we do. But since knowing the Love of God, I can tell you it is so much more. Love is the union, so much that you can feel your partner inside you at will, with mutual sexual desires, as you 2 are actually one, along with the parent/child bond where you can feel the love of your parent or the need of love of your child as they are also one with you.

kanicbird
12-07-2009, 04:01 PM
Actually it's completely impossible - I don't know who this Jesus of yours is

Too bad, as since His sacrifice He is you, if you only realize it.

Find Friends
12-07-2009, 04:15 PM
IIRC the Hebrew word for soul is heart, though it may be spirit/heart. Either way I believe our physical heart is just a part, or reflection of our soul. Our soul being spiritual but has a physical manifestation as our physical heart.

As such in coming to Jesus He has shown me that yes we can hear from our soul/heart and connect with others with our hearts. It is extremely awesome, sometimes you can actually be the other person in yourself.

I also believe much of the heart disease today is spiritual, a disconnection of the heart to our minds. Our heart is isolated and eventually dies.



I and many teachers of meditative practices would disagree. Yes we have been given means of physical detection and reactions from our physical minds.



Well there are documented cases of heart transplant patients that recall memories of the donor. The soul AFAIK is our being, which the physical manifestation is the heart, which allows and supplies all the body through it's physical experience.

- - -

You are correct. And not only is the herart what you say it is, but the kidneys (AKA reins) are the location of the conscience. :rolleyes:

http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2006/11/jesus-will-search-your-kidneys.html

jayjay
12-07-2009, 04:21 PM
Never mind...not appropriate GD behavior.

begbert2
12-07-2009, 04:31 PM
Too bad, as since His sacrifice He is you, if you only realize it.Oh, okay, that makes it easy - I can definitely accept me as my god - I, the fat lazy God who looks at porn, doesn't know hebrew, doesn't owe alleigence to any other diety, and who thinks you're wrong about nearly everything you believe in. I am totally your god!

Okay, actually I won't accept me as a god, because I don't have quite that large of an ego. But at least I'm capable of doing so, which is a step up from trying to accept or even believe in whatever diety you actually believe in.

kanicbird
12-07-2009, 04:35 PM
- - -

You are correct. And not only is the herart what you say it is, but the kidneys (AKA reins) are the location of the conscience. :rolleyes:

http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2006/11/jesus-will-search-your-kidneys.html

Interesting, today I was just reading a book (non-Christian, spiritual), where the emotional center was taken as the general area of the heart and consciousnesses the area of the kidneys (Summer Path by Scott Blum).

One thing I have learned is everything happens for a reason. Are you by any chance one of the shepherds I spoke about? :D:eek:

kanicbird
12-07-2009, 04:36 PM
Oh, okay, that makes it easy - I can definitely accept me as my god - I, the fat lazy God who looks at porn, doesn't know hebrew, doesn't owe alleigence to any other diety, and who thinks you're wrong about nearly everything you believe in. I am totally your god!

Okay, actually I won't accept me as a god, because I don't have quite that large of an ego. But at least I'm capable of doing so, which is a step up from trying to accept or even believe in whatever diety you actually believe in.

So you are not a child of God?

begbert2
12-07-2009, 04:40 PM
So you are not a child of God?I've met both my parents, and despite our ongoing jest that my Mom is older than time, I can say with a fair degree of certainty that neither of them actually created the universe.


(Also I saw you moving that goalpost from me being God, to me being just a child of God. Don't think I didn't.)

silenus
12-07-2009, 04:48 PM
Offered without comment. (http://www.gocomics.com/nonsequitur/2009/10/29/)

jayjay
12-07-2009, 04:48 PM
We've gone from run-of-the-mill religious argument, which I can take, into New Agey fluffy-bordered spirituality stuff that usually ends up dragging in angels, space aliens and ethereal chicken soup, which I cannot take without being VERY non-GD, so I'm bowing out.

kanicbird
12-07-2009, 05:03 PM
I've met both my parents, and despite our ongoing jest that my Mom is older than time, I can say with a fair degree of certainty that neither of them actually created the universe.

So your parents didn't define your universe for you? I think you really need to think this one over.


(Also I saw you moving that goalpost from me being God, to me being just a child of God. Don't think I didn't.)

Jesus is the Son of God and also God, so you being a child of God are also God, thanks to Jesus.

begbert2
12-07-2009, 05:13 PM
So your parents didn't define your universe for you? I think you really need to think this one over.If my parents had defined the world, my dad wouldn't have been forced to retire. Ever. (He likey the worky.)

And even metaphorically if they had "defined my universe", I would be Mormon like they wish I was. I'm not, though, because that reality thing? It existed independent of them and didn't comply with their presentation of it. So no, my parents didn't "define my universe" - that would require a level of sheltering that would be crippling and IMHO abusive.

Jesus is the Son of God and also God, so you being a child of God are also God, thanks to Jesus.If I was God, I wouldn't have to hold down a job to make ends meet. (Me no likey the worky.) However, I do have to hold down a job to make ends meet. Therefore, I am not God. QED.

ETA: (And even if we ignore that, my brother is my father's son and while I'm my father's child I'm still not my brother or my father, so OOPS, logical failure.)



Look, I know you are trying to be all allegorical and mystical and garbage, but I'm afraid I haven't dissociated myself from the real world, and so I'm not very receptive to mystic-sounding nonsense. Forget trying to convert me - if you want me to even stop scoffing, you're going to have to drop the meaningless and self-contradictory allegory-speak and revert to plain english.

And if your beliefs can't be made comprehensible in english, the language probably isn't the thing to blame.

Czarcasm
12-07-2009, 08:18 PM
Too bad, as since His sacrifice He is you, if you only realize it.There is no objective evidence that there is a god to love you, if you only realize it.

Now what, besides your personal opinion and blind faith, makes your statement any more valid than mine?

kanicbird
12-08-2009, 08:08 AM
If I was God, I wouldn't have to hold down a job to make ends meet. (Me no likey the worky.) However, I do have to hold down a job to make ends meet.

You are working to make ends meet, therefor you have defined your provider (father) as your employer/company, so you will be doing their will, not your heavenly Father's will. It is a choice one makes, to do the work of God and trust in God to provide, or to do their own work and get the benefit of that. Jesus reverses the curse of Adam:

"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat of it
all the days of your life.

18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.

19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food


That is why you no likely the worky., and how Jesus reverses it:

25"Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes? 26Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life[b]?

28"And why do you worry about clothes? See how the lilies of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? 31So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' 32For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

Therefore, I am not God. QED.
Jesus disagrees:
John 10:34
Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods' ?



Look, I know you are trying to be all allegorical and mystical and garbage, but I'm afraid I haven't dissociated myself from the real world, and so I'm not very receptive to mystic-sounding nonsense. Forget trying to convert me - if you want me to even stop scoffing, you're going to have to drop the meaningless and self-contradictory allegory-speak and revert to plain english.

And if your beliefs can't be made comprehensible in english, the language probably isn't the thing to blame.

Here is it= "you are so much more then you believe you are."

Your image of yourself has been molded by others (parents, TV, piers, teachers, religious authorities, etc.), most don't have your best interest in mind. Those people have subjected you to their image of who you should be. When we are young, we have no defense and start to do things to please others, to gain acceptance, and we trust their view of us.

Once one decides for their self that there must be more and seek God, God reveals who He always wanted you to be.

kanicbird
12-08-2009, 08:21 AM
There is no objective evidence that there is a god to love you, if you only realize it.

Now what, besides your personal opinion and blind faith, makes your statement any more valid than mine?

begbert2, this is a perfect example of what I stated, how others push their view of reality in a way that discourages people from seeking, to mold one to their view, and once there it locks each other in to a group think. I a not suggesting that Czarcasm is intentional misleading, but also group-locked into the same pattern as I described above.

Though Czarcasm's statement may be actually true, as I don't know if there is 'objective evidence', but there is a God you can personally know, but in my experience you don't get to Him by 'objective evidence'.

So while it may be a true statement, is it also totally irrelevant, but designed to discourage seeking God (again not saying that this was designed personally by Czarcasm for this purpose, just he is repeating what has come from his background).

monavis
12-08-2009, 09:29 AM
You are right, in that it is a true request of the heart when also your mind allows it. In that respect it's not easy, as many have built walls around our hearts to protect us from pain in our lives. As such our hearts have become prisoner to our minds (reasoning, denial, etc.). For many it takes a time of total desperation that the mind actually listens to it's prisoner and takes the advice of the heart.

Our mind have to yield control to our heart, which is also our soul, for this to happen. It is also at this time where our hearts begin to heal.

What happens when one has a heart transplant? Are they then led by some one other that your mind?

kanicbird
12-08-2009, 10:40 AM
What happens when one has a heart transplant?
From:
http://www.med.unc.edu/wellness/main/links/cellular%20memory.htm

Which has many examples of memories/tendencies in organs from the donor including:
In one case, an 18-year-old boy who wrote poetry, played music and composed songs, was killed in an automobile accident. A year after he died his parents came across an audiotape of a song he had written, entitled, "Danny, My Heart is Yours," which was about how he "felt he was destined to die and give his heart to someone." The donor recipient "Danny" of his heart, was an 18-year-old girl, named Danielle. When she met the donor's parents, they played some of his music and she, despite never having heard the song, was able to complete the phrases.

begbert2
12-08-2009, 01:43 PM
You are working to make ends meet, therefor you have defined your provider (father) as your employer/company, so you will be doing their will, not your heavenly Father's will. It is a choice one makes, to do the work of God and trust in God to provide, or to do their own work and get the benefit of that. Jesus reverses the curse of Adam:

That is why you no likely the worky., and how Jesus reverses it:Actually I'm my company's provider - I do the work that keeps them alive. They come pleading to me, offering me gifts of money and insurance coverage in return for extending my powerful hand to them and giving them life. I guess that makes me the father, huh?

And I have no interest in being a shiftless do-nothing bum living in my parent's basement, thanks.

Jesus disagrees:He was just saying that to avoid getting stoned to death. (Quick thinker, that Jesus.) In actuality he's quoting Psalm 82 out of context. And let's look at that Psalm, shall we?

A psalm of Asaph.
1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the Most High.
7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

So. Who is God speaking to here? It says he's talking to gods. Is this metaphor? I think not. Take note of 82:7: "But you will die like mere men". If these gods were mere men, then God would not have said this. (Pause for desperate fanwanky "interpretation".)

When not wallowing in apologetics, it's clear that this Psalm presents to us a view of a level of beings above mankind and below God, who God is chewing out for helping the bad people. I have no doubt that you are well aware of this psalm, because it sounds a lot like the polytheistic worldview you've constructed, with false gods behind every rock. And it's also clear that when people quote this psalm and pretend it's talking about men, and say that it says that men are the son of God, then they are misinterpreting it, very possibly for the purposes of deception.

Of course, as noted, this deception saved Jesus's skin, so you can't really fault him for the subterfuge. Too bad this corruption of scripture has spread ever since.


Your image of yourself has been molded by others (parents, TV, piers, teachers, religious authorities, etc.), most don't have your best interest in mind. Those people have subjected you to their image of who you should be. When we are young, we have no defense and start to do things to please others, to gain acceptance, and we trust their view of us.

Once one decides for their self that there must be more and seek God, God reveals who He always wanted you to be.The word is "peers".

And my self-image is self-constructed. Don't project sheeplike attitudes on me.

begbert2, this is a perfect example of what I stated, how others push their view of reality in a way that discourages people from seeking, to mold one to their view, and once there it locks each other in to a group think. I a not suggesting that Czarcasm is intentional misleading, but also group-locked into the same pattern as I described above.

Though Czarcasm's statement may be actually true, as I don't know if there is 'objective evidence', but there is a God you can personally know, but in my experience you don't get to Him by 'objective evidence'.

So while it may be a true statement, is it also totally irrelevant, but designed to discourage seeking God (again not saying that this was designed personally by Czarcasm for this purpose, just he is repeating what has come from his background).Your statements are exactly the same, trying to push your view of reality in a way that discourages people from seeking other views - the only difference is that your flavor of group-think is different than his, and unlike his, yours misrepresents reality. (Heck, yours misrepresents the Bible.) You think yourself to be in some elevated state, speaking Truth with a capital T, but in actuality you are only another human expressing your own biased opinions. And given the choice of two humans' opinions, I'll pick the one that's biased by reality over the one that's biased by the personal voices in their head.

monavis
12-09-2009, 03:42 PM
From:
http://www.med.unc.edu/wellness/main/links/cellular%20memory.htm

Which has many examples of memories/tendencies in organs from the donor including:

The recipient is then using the dead person's heart...how nice!! Wonder what would have happened if one was bad but recieved another heart ot vise versa.

jayjay
12-09-2009, 03:48 PM
The recipient is then using the dead person's heart...how nice!! Wonder what would have happened if one was bad but recieved another heart ot vise versa.

Heh...

"I've raped, pillaged, murdered, blasphemed, burned churches to the ground, and foreclosed on 150 orphanages...but I have enough money and access to unethical MDs to pay to have the heart of a 12-year-old boy, raised by nuns from birth, transplanted into my chest. I'm goin' to HEAVEN, baby!"

kanicbird
12-09-2009, 05:23 PM
Heh...

"I've raped, pillaged, murdered, blasphemed, burned churches to the ground, and foreclosed on 150 orphanages...but I have enough money and access to unethical MDs to pay to have the heart of a 12-year-old boy, raised by nuns from birth, transplanted into my chest. I'm goin' to HEAVEN, baby!"

Works for me, if this guy can get we are all set.

kanicbird
12-09-2009, 05:52 PM
And I have no interest in being a shiftless do-nothing bum living in my parent's basement, thanks.

What makes you think your Father has nothing for you to do, even before the fall, God gave Adam stuff to do.

He was just saying that to avoid getting stoned to death. (Quick thinker, that Jesus.) In actuality he's quoting Psalm 82 out of context. And let's look at that Psalm, shall we?

I got a good laugh out of this. The scriptures testify about Jesus, and the Word is Jesus. Anyway the psalm and Jesus' context are both valid and not in conflict. Men are gods ever since Adam (Gen 3:22)

And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."




A psalm of Asaph.
1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the Most High.
7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

So. Who is God speaking to here? It says he's talking to gods. Is this metaphor? I think not. Take note of 82:7: "But you will die like mere men". If these gods were mere men, then God would not have said this. (Pause for desperate fanwanky "interpretation".)
God respects man as his own god, which He is, so He refers to man as a god, which is only fitting.

There is a time in the oppressed man's life where he will cry out to God, there are many instances of this in scripture. It is when the man surrenders his godhood and accepts the Lord as god, after which time the Lord reclaims His people by doing whatever it takes to rescue us from the other gods.


This goes for your company as well, if you oppress your workers to the point that they cry out to God, God will remove them from you, no matter what the cost is to you, they are His people at that point and you as a god are standing in between a parent God going to rescue His children.

Docta G
12-09-2009, 05:56 PM
I think you're supposed to take the stairs.

And raise a little Hell.