Two questions about the economics of veterinarian bills

[Sampiro]

My dog- 8 year old rat terrier- has had to have major surgery; just got news that he came through all right though of course he's out of it. The surgery, which is about halfway to a gender reassignment, required major plumbing changes (a urethral reroute to be precise) and while I haven't gotten the final total yet the estimate was... rather high. It at least made for a memorable facebook post yesterday:

On this my birthday it is impossible to estimate the value and worth of my friends and family (the ones I speak to) and loved ones. It's very possible to estimate the value of having my dogs urethra re-routed through his taint: that's about $1800.

But the important thing is he's doing okay. He'll be recovering for a while. And I got to see a world class dog fight while there (a Golden Retriever attacked a big mut in the lobby of the vet clinic and damn- literally every employee- about 6- and the dogs' owners took minutes to pull them apart. The Retriever more or less won but the vet said the mut wasn't badly hurt at all, but all agreed it was the worst fight they'd seen in years; I was so thankful I was holding my rat terrier instead of the Jack Russell mix because that one- even if he'd been bandaged and catheterized like the Rat- would have screamed something you wouldn't have to be Dr. Doolittle to translate as "TODAY IS A GLORIOUS DAY TO DIE!" and would have leapt into the fray, and would at least have come in second. (With humans he's the sweetest dog ever, with other dogs he's hell on wheels- though currently he's depressed over his 'brother' being gone- really is, he's barely eating and looking for him constantly even though they rarely get along {they rarely fight, but they growl and fuss at each other constantly}).

Anyway, apologies for the digression. The questions and comments (and this may not be the right forum but I'll let the Mods decide):


1- Luckily for me and for my dog I was able to afford the $1800- I don't mind telling you that it stung like a bitch, but at least I can afford it. There have been many times, such as most of my life, when I couldn't. This is the only vet in town who performs this particular surgery and their payment plan is "Half down/half now" basically; they give you an estimate and you have to pay half up front and leave a credit card (or other proof) that you're good for the rest, and obviously when you build a Urethra Bypass it's a very necessary operation. (He couldn't pee without a catheter and this is the rather drastic cure.)

So this may be a naive and stupid question: what happens when a pet needs an operation and his owner/s can't afford it? (The vet recommended a particular petcare credit card, but that assumes you have good credit.) I completely understand that a vet has to pay their staff and their bills and their mortgage and all and is highly qualified and is not working a charity, but this has to be a frequent decision: is it common for animals who are unhealthy but can be helped to be put to sleep?
Or are there any agencies or charities that will help with this?
While my dog is incredibly important to me- moreso arguably than he should be- I don't pretend that their well being outweighs that of a human in terms of government aid, but I would argue til the cows come home that a human beings quality of life is definitely affected by the health of their pets, and being unable to provide emergency care would cause enormous pain and depression and yet there are tens of millions in this situation. If the bill had been $18,000 instead of $1,800 I'd have been. For this reason I'd love to donate (once I've paid this off) to an agency that provides this type of emergency assistance. Does anybody know of one?

2. Completely unrelated but something I've wondered before and even though it seems like a very stupid question I'll ask: this again was major surgery- requires anesthesia, qualified surgeon, post-op care, etc., and it was $1,800. If it had been done to me (God forbid) in a human hospital, it would have been closer to $180,000. Some of the same drugs are used in the IV and painkillers that would be used with me.

What is the biggest difference in price variation twixt veterinary procedures and human procedures? Is it the fees of the surgeon, the hospital, or what exactly?

[romansperson]

For this reason I'd love to donate (once I've paid this off) to an agency that provides this type of emergency assistance. Does anybody know of one?

Your vet's office would be a good place to ask about this. I don't know of any national organizations, but there is a local one here I know of, and I am sure there are others:

Ashley's Angel Fund (http://www.ashleyfund.org/)

There are vet's offices here who keep donation canisters on their counters for AAF.

Also, Ohio State University does a certain amount of free/low cost stuff specifically for greyhounds through their Greyhound Health and Wellness Program (http://www.vet.ohio-state.edu/GHWP.htm). I know someone who got free chemo for her dog through them (it's one of things that donations pay for), and I've gotten a no-cost consult from them.

Our local greyhound group will also donate funds to members who are having expensive medical treatment for their hounds if they know the person is having financial difficulties. I wouldn't be surprised if other breed-specific groups do the same thing for their members or people their members know.

What is the biggest difference in price variation twixt veterinary procedures and human procedures? Is it the fees of the surgeon, the hospital, or what exactly?

I'm not in the biz or anything, but I'd bet there is a significant difference in the cost of malpractice insurance, for one thing. And since there has been a trend of late in the court system of viewing pets more as family members and companions as opposed to property, I wonder if/how/when that may change.

Also, salaries and overhead are higher in human medicine, often by quite a lot.

Oh, and as far as folks putting pets to sleep because they can't afford treatment? I don't know how often it happens, but I sure know it does, and I'd bet it's not uncommon.

[StGermain]

Sampiro - When I was at the vet's office three weeks ago, having my dog Grace euthanized (end of life with congestive heart failure), another owner was there and made the decision to euthanized because he didn't want to pay for surgery. He signed the euthanasia release papers and left, then the vet told the receptionist he'd do the surgery on his own dime and rehome the dog. Obviously vets can't afford to tell everyone that they'll do surgeries for free, but in the case of my vet, he's told me straight out the the needs of the animals come before the wants of the owners if he's treating them. He also accepts payments if you can't pay for everything up front. I have known plenty of people who have made the decision to euthanize if the cost of treatment was prohibitively high. Every person needs to make the decision as to how far they'll go - do you pay hundreds for chemo that will only prolong life for another 6 months? Do you max out your credit cards when you're unemployed?

I'm lucky that although I'v had to make the call to euthanize my pets, money has never been the reason. I don't know how I'd stand that.

StG

[toodlepip]

Here in the UK there are charities that offer financial assistance to pet owners, or provide free treatment at charity run clinics. This is usually only available to pet owners who are on means tested government benefits, and there may be limits on the treatment offered. There are also charities that contribute towards neutering costs.

As for animals being put to sleep because of the cost of treatment? Happens a lot, in my experience. Either because of long term expensive medication, or a sudden unexpected cost. Money may not be the only factor, but it often affects treatment decisions, even for pet owners who appear to be well off




this again was major surgery- requires anesthesia, qualified surgeon, post-op care, etc., and it was $1,800. If it had been done to me (God forbid) in a human hospital, it would have been closer to $180,000.


I guess Americans have a slightly different attitude towards vet bills, in that you have an idea of the cost of your own healthcare. The attitude here is more "But why does it cost anything? I'm doing a good deed by looking after an animal!" We keep our prices as low as we can, but people still complain.

[Kkrose]

Sampiro - W He signed the euthanasia release papers and left, then the vet told the receptionist he'd do the surgery on his own dime and rehome the dog.

StG

This is how I got my pup. When he was four months old his previous owner stepped on his front leg and broke it. He was only about five pounds (pomeranian) so it was a very delicate surgery involving a metal plate. They couldn't afford the surgery to fix it so they signed the release to euthanize. The vet then did the surgery for free and adopted him out to me. All of his follow-up visits and everything were covered by the vet. All he got out of it was the adoption fee ($250 I think). He was also fostered out during his recovery before I got him. Unlucky for the owners, but lucky for me. He's a great little dog.

[truthbot]

Sampiro - When I was at the vet's office three weeks ago, having my dog Grace euthanized (end of life with congestive heart failure), another owner was there and made the decision to euthanized because he didn't want to pay for surgery. He signed the euthanasia release papers and left, then the vet told the receptionist he'd do the surgery on his own dime and rehome the dog. Obviously vets can't afford to tell everyone that they'll do surgeries for free, but in the case of my vet, he's told me straight out the the needs of the animals come before the wants of the owners if he's treating them. He also accepts payments if you can't pay for everything up front. I have known plenty of people who have made the decision to euthanize if the cost of treatment was prohibitively high. Every person needs to make the decision as to how far they'll go - do you pay hundreds for chemo that will only prolong life for another 6 months? Do you max out your credit cards when you're unemployed?

I'm lucky that although I'v had to make the call to euthanize my pets, money has never been the reason. I don't know how I'd stand that.

StG

Wow, St Germain; I love your vet. I know that my vet often does things like that, but just Wow that your vet did that. I have three rescue horses that get free care from my vet, because she's happy that the horses have a good home. We all do the best we can, no?

[mnemosyne]

If the vet is going to do a surgery anyways, why not do it for free for the person who couldn't afford it? Many owners can afford the day-to-day cost of pets, but can't drop $1000+ in one go on something.... So many vets don't have payment plans available, and a sudden unexpected surgery can really screw with someone's finances. It seems rather judgmental and unfair to tell someone their pet will be euthanized, and then treat the pet and give it away. Not being able to pay doesn't make them bad owners, it just makes them people with less disposable income. Yes, part of getting a pet is taking responsibility for it, and that means being willing to take care of the animal when it's sick, but where's the limit? $1000? $5000? $10 000?

Sorry, but in my mind, this pretty much amounts to theft. The owner paid for a service (euthanasia) and even though he doesn't expect anything tangible in return, he expected that the pet would be put down, but the fact is that service isn't being done and someone else is receiving a healthier animal for it. I'm happy the pets were rehomed into good homes, but if the vet is willing to do free work, then he or she should be willing to do it for the owners of the pet. It just sits wrong with me.

[truthbot]

Sampiro, PM me with your info. I'll gladly pay for your pet's care.

[StGermain]

mnemosyne - In reality, if it became known that vets were giving away care to those who couldn't afford it, people would all claim they were broke. This particular case was a prolapsed uterus. I doubt the surgery would've been much more than a normal spay. As I said, my vet makes payment plans for those who can't afford the cost upfront. This person chose not to treat their dog because they didn't want to incur the expense. Why should they get medical treatment for free?

Although the case could be made that the vet "stole" the dog, I have no doubt the euthanasia release allows the vet to take custody of the animal.

StG

[Hello Again]

mnemosyne - In reality, if it became known that vets were giving away care to those who couldn't afford it, people would all claim they were broke. This particular case was a prolapsed uterus. I doubt the surgery would've been much more than a normal spay. As I said, my vet makes payment plans for those who can't afford the cost upfront. This person chose not to treat their dog because they didn't want to incur the expense. Why should they get medical treatment for free?

This has been my experience - when the animal is surrendered it is because the owner has refused a relatively simple, inexpensive treatment.

My friend who is a vet got her dog this way. The owner had run over the dog's tail and it needed ampuation. Owner didn't want to bother, between the surgery and the at home aftercare (changing bandages, etc). Dog was young, healthy and friendly.

[kathmandu]

This is how I got my pup. When he was four months old his previous owner stepped on his front leg and broke it. He was only about five pounds (pomeranian) so it was a very delicate surgery involving a metal plate. They couldn't afford the surgery to fix it so they signed the release to euthanize. The vet then did the surgery for free and adopted him out to me. All of his follow-up visits and everything were covered by the vet. All he got out of it was the adoption fee ($250 I think). He was also fostered out during his recovery before I got him. Unlucky for the owners, but lucky for me. He's a great little dog.

I'm glad your dog got a good home, but IMO, this was a pretty dickish and dishonest thing for your vet to do. If the owners chose to euthanize because they honestly couldn't afford the surgery, your vet should have either euthanized the dog, done the surgery for free and returned it to them, or told them he was going to do the surgery and give the dog to someone else.

If my pet was injured and I was unable to pay for her treatment, I would be devastated if my only option was to euthanize her. Thankfully, I'm in a financial position that I don't have to worry about that, but a lot of people aren't so fortunate. This doesn't mean they don't love their pets. I would be beyond livid if I was told my pet was dead when it had really been given to someone else.

[Markxxx]

When I was 16 my mum died and since my father was already dead, I was in no position to keep the dog and cat alive. I had to put them both to sleep, which was a bit hard since they were still healthy but no one would take them. (The cat was 10 and the dog 15 so the shelters wouldn't take them and the pound said they'd just wind up euthanized anyway since no one wants old pets)

But I knew of a girl who worked for a vet and she said, that if you put your pets to sleep you should stay with them so the vet doesn't use them for anything, like she said the vet she worked for would use them for drawing blood out, before euthanizing them.

So I stayed with both pets while they were being put to sleep to know that what the vet said he was going to do, he actually did.

[Sampiro]

Sampiro, PM me with your info. I'll gladly pay for your pet's care.

I appreciate that more than you can possibly know, but it's not necessary. Since he had the good sense to be my mother's dog before mine (and is thus a holy relic) my sister is willing to help out if needed, but major major thanks.;)

[Sampiro]

Not being able to pay doesn't make them bad owners, it just makes them people with less disposable income. Yes, part of getting a pet is taking responsibility for it, and that means being willing to take care of the animal when it's sick, but where's the limit? $1000? $5000? $10 000?


Besides which pets can live for many years. Your financial position when you get the pet may not be the same as it is five or ten years down the road, and nobody really wants to give the pet away because they had a lay-off or something else that ate their finances. I agree- it's best for the pet and the owner that if you're going to do the surgery anyway then return it to the owner and work out a payment plan that they would probably gladly consent to pay.

[Hanna]

I'm glad your dog's equipment rerouting went A OK. Surgery is always hard since they don't understand what it's all for and what is going on. :(


For this reason I'd love to donate (once I've paid this off) to an agency that provides this type of emergency assistance. Does anybody know of one?
One I've donated to when I am flush is http://www.imom.org/

2. Completely unrelated but something I've wondered before and even though it seems like a very stupid question I'll ask: this again was major surgery- requires anesthesia, qualified surgeon, post-op care, etc., and it was $1,800. If it had been done to me (God forbid) in a human hospital, it would have been closer to $180,000. Some of the same drugs are used in the IV and painkillers that would be used with me.

What is the biggest difference in price variation twixt veterinary procedures and human procedures? Is it the fees of the surgeon, the hospital, or what exactly?
I'm not a vet but I wonder about this too. Most vets have to have their own facilities/hospitals and pay for all their equipment themselves. Plus, unlike human doctors, they have to be prepared for and know how to deal with more than one species! They probably have to price themselves as not to cut everyone off. I know if I had to pay $11,000 to get my dog's leg fixed, I'd probably not be able to do it and I don't know how many would. probably the lack of insurance coverage plays into it, too. I know there is pet insurance available, but IME once your pet hits a certain age, they don't cover at all, so I've never gotten it.

[toodlepip]

The legal position (here, at least, may be different elsewhere) is that if someone signs a consent form for euthanasia and pays for the procedure, then THAT'S what should happen. I know of at least one case where the original owner discovered that his dog had been rehomed by the vet without his consent, and took legal action.

In the clinic where I work, our policy is that if the animal can be rehomed, we will try to do so, but only with the owner's consent. Nobody ever says no. We usually then do the treatment for free, as long as it's a one-off.

Give free treatment and return the animal to the original owner? Then nobody would ever pay us for anything. And the animal would be in exactly the same position if it got sick or injured again; back with an owner that couldn't afford treatment.

[footballisplayedwithyourfeet]

I don't get the problem with not euthanizing pets and 'giving' them to someone else. Like others have said, if it would be known that vets pay for procedures, this might breed freeriders who would try to get procedures done for free. I actually think this is quite closely related to the thread (which is active at the moment) about doctors not being allowed to donate organs to patients.

In both cases there is a possibility of doctors bieng put on the spot (either to donate an organ or a vet to pay for a procedure) where they need to make a decision no one should be forced to make.

If somebody won't or can't (sadly it is impossible to distinuish between the two) pay for a procedure for a pet, and the vet (from his own goodness of heart) decides to save the pet anyway, then all the better. And I wouldn't think it was a bad thing if the pet ended up somewhere else.

[horsetech]

I agree that it is dishonest and probably illegal for the vet to lie to the owner like that (and most places charge for euthanasia, so they are stealing both an animal and the euthanasia fee).

There are a lot of things that go into the lower fees for animal surgeries, etc. As mentioned above, malpractice is one. Average vets earn a lot less than their people-doctor counterparts in the US, vet assistants/techs get paid a lot less than RN's, there's no dietary consultant/social worker/occupational therapist in house, space required is much less (you can fit a dozen animal cages into the space required for one person's hospital bed).

As for why people in the veterinary industry are paid so much less, it's because the pet-owning population as a whole doesn't value them as much as in the human health industry and are therefore willing to pay less. As others have mentioned, some people don't even want to pay a few hundred dollars for a simple procedure. Pet insurance exists, but many people (including those who spend a pretty penny on their own health insurance, car payment, etc.) don't consider the expense to be worth the benefit of peace of mind/saving their pet if need be. Hell, people don't want to put more money into the food animal industry so that there are more vets to protect the food supply (there is a shortage of food animal vets yet they are paid less than dog and cat vets, indicating a lack of demand), but that's a whole 'nother story.

Yes, animals do die when their owners can't or won't pay. I've seen owners wearing expensive clothing and driving a brand-new Lexus SUV who refused to have their puppy admitted so that its diarrhea could be treated with IV fluids. Other people are well-intentioned but just plain do not have the money. Vets generally become vets because they love animals and want to help them, but you can not save them all and you can not run a viable business, pay your bills, pay off your loans, and survive by giving away care all of the time. Most vets will try to work something out with you or give you a break on parts of the bill, but they have to make decisions about whom to help.

Somewhat OT, but as much as it pains me (as a future-I-hope vet) to have to euthanize an animal you could have saved, I do not think it is morally wrong to give them a peaceful death. I DO think it is wrong to refuse treatment and let them suffer.

[Ferret Herder]

Other cost considerations:

Most vet bills have to be paid up front, or you can sign up with a credit-type system there. Thus they'd have far fewer unpaid bills than many hospitals.

Few to no insurance companies to work through contracts and frequent renewals with, reducing overhead there.

Many human hospitals are non-profit, which requires them to give a certain amount of free or highly reduced health care to the poor.

Downside: People generally don't abandon a sick family member at the hospital - or at least, the patient can be sought after for payment in the case of humans. This can happen at vet offices if the bill is too high. I was at my vets' office one day (specializing in "exotic" pets - i.e., not dogs and cats) and listened to the tech diplomatically explain to a family new to that practice that they had a policy that if sick animals were brought in by new clients, the people couldn't leave the office without the animal, even just to "get a cup of coffee" as they'd had problems like that before. Fortunately the family understood.

[Sampiro]

I was at my vets' office one day (specializing in "exotic" pets - i.e., not dogs and cats) and listened to the tech diplomatically explain to a family new to that practice that they had a policy that if sick animals were brought in by new clients, the people couldn't leave the office without the animal, even just to "get a cup of coffee" as they'd had problems like that before.

A cousin who worked for a vet that dealt mostly with reptiles (mainly pythons and iguanas) said they had a major problem with stoner kids (whether 18 or 40) who would buy these animals because they thought they were cool and alternative, then panic the first time it either had a health problem (which for snakes and lizards is rarely cheap) or the first time it went snake or lizard and abandon it at the vet if they could. If they couldn't they'd abandon it at the animal shelter (which didn't take snakes or exotic pets) or just abandon it. This was on the Gulf Coast, and they still have a major problem with pythons and iguaners gone wild in some regions.

[SeaDragonTattoo]

None of the vets I work for would have an owner sign an authorization for euthanasia without every intention of carrying it out. If the pet is otherwise viable if this one thing (illness, injury) can be fixed, and it's only money that's in the way, then the owner can surrender the pet to the hospital.

This doesn't happen as often as it used to, though, because the pets for adoption got a bit out of hand and expensive. Now, if there's an employee present at the time of the surrender, who is willing to take on the expense (with their significant discount), and who will be taking the pet home themselves, only in that circumstance can the pet be surrendered. Basically, the hospital has to know the pet already has a home to go to as soon as it's healthy. Another sign of the current times.

Myself, I adopted the bestest kitty ever this year, I named him Chico. Two months after I adopted him he ended up with a urinary obstruction, and because of other complications during hospitalization that had to do with his liver shunt and the fact that the u-cath irritated his bladder to volcano-like inflammation, he was hospitalized for 4 days, and then again just 2 weeks ago.

If I didn't work at animal hospitals, between his time hospitalized, the ultrasounds he got, the bloodwork, the urinalysis, x-rays, urinary catheters, IV catheters, etc, etc, he would have cost me over $3,000 this year. With my discounts, my total outlay has been about $800.

As to the animal vs. human health care, especially in terms of surgery, don't forget pretty much ALL of the equipment, including surgical instruments, in human care are disposable. It all gets thrown out. That's very expensive. Vet hospitals clean, sterilize, and re-use their surgical equipment. Much less expensive in the long run when a $1,000 surgical pack can last 5 years or more with proper care!

[rhubarbarin]

Glad your pup is doing okay!

I think it's very common for pets to be put to sleep when owners can't afford treatment. I went through this as a child with a couple pets. Honestly, although I love my two dogs and two cats, there are few expensive medical treatments I would shell out for even if I had cash to burn (I don't - I have credit and essential savings). It depends on the situation, of course. For traumatic injury, or a condition such as severe hip dysplasia, where with the right surgery there's a good prognosis for being mobile and pain-free, I would spend quite a bit. Major cancer treatment beyond pain management, never. Most other degenerative conditions, ditto. I have few issues with euthanasia and animal death. I miss em, but it's not that hard for me to move on.

I do spend extra money on preventative care (feeding them the optimal diet carnivore diet), and the y all have zero health problems so far, thankfully.

[elelle]

Sampiro, here's some get well wishes for your pup, hope he heals up soon.

This summer I had a sad enmergency with a beloved cat, a brain infection, and had to take her in the middle of the night, on a Friday, of course.... to the Emergency clinic, and then to the State Vet School. Each step of treatment had to be decided and then an advance and credit card for the rest. I'd expect that sort of payment would help keep costs down.

She was at the Vet School for 10 days, and, yep, it cost a lot, and they ultimately weren't able to save her :(:( , but got tremendous care by the neurological docs there. One thing of great note; they said, "Well, we don't get many cats...." and, it was true, she was the only cat in the ICU. Just dogs, so that really says a lot about how people value one type of pet over the other. No judgement here, I just thought it odd.

That did give me extra reason to go ahead with her treatment, hoping for her to be saved, but then, to help other cats by allowing the student vets to get experience treating her, gaining knowledge with a weird problem, down to the MRIs and umpteen tests. They weren't able to save her, but I was so impressed by the level of care and compassion she recieved. In talking to one really outstanding resident neurologist, who had been up for a lonnnnggg rotation: He said that his brother was an MD resident, and they had compared notes, and the brother had said the Vet's rotations were rougher. He wasn't bragging, just related it lightly while looking tired, as I told him how much I appreciated all he had done for my sweet cat.

That experience really showed me, through all the emergency care freakout emotions had, how caring and committed people who go into Veterinary medicine are. They always called back to discuss options, even in wee hours after long shifts, listened at length to all questions and explained everything in detail. Getting all sniffly sad here again in remembering all that, but, veterinarians are really incredible people.

[KarlGrenze]

Just random thoughts from a former volunteer, vet student, and now resident (in pathology).

Malpractice insurance for pets exist, but is less expensive than the human counterparts. I think it is starting to be more and more recommended for veterinarians to have them, especially those that deal with horses (which themselves are insured).

Yes, I've seen animals put to death when it was something that could be treatable, manageable, give the animal months if not years, reduce the pain, AND the people seemed to afford it (heck, they were at the vet school, which is the main referral practice in the area). The owners have just said "no". I've seen people who don't even qualify for the CareCredit struggle and cry and look completely lost trying to figure out what to do when their pets are in trouble. Can you tell which set of owners gets my sympathies?

I'm keeping my mouth shut on euthanasia.

As to why some vets turn around and treat animals that have essentially been abandoned, and give them out to someone else... They're being (for better or worse) character judges, and in their minds, those owners didn't deserve the furry bundle of joy.

What is amusing (for me) with reptiles is that most of the basic problems they get are due to poor husbandry. This is true for most exotic (not dog or cat) species. Fix their habitat and their outlook improves. Now, keeping the proper husbandy for each species can be hard, and requires a bit of research and setting up before getting the animal. But it can be done.

Going to veterinary school costs about as much as going to medical schools, I did comparison in terms of tuition prices at some point. The student debts are about the same as our human medicine counterparts. Yet the starting salary is much less than that of a trained doctor. And if you think a specialization improves the salaries... it does, but nowhere near the human counterpart. AND doctors during their residencies get paid more than veterinarians during their residencies.

They are trying to give out incentives for students to move into food animal specialties, and I think last year's AVMA's economic survey showed an increase in the starting salaries for food animal- primary veterinarians.

There are charities and funds that help some people. Most of them are local, or associated with big referral practices (or veterinary schools). Low cost spay/neuter programs are available in many places for those who qualify. Or you could get lucky and the veterinarian work out a payment plan or something like that on an individual basis.

[kayaker]

The legal position (here, at least, may be different elsewhere) is that if someone signs a consent form for euthanasia and pays for the procedure, then THAT'S what should happen. I know of at least one case where the original owner discovered that his dog had been rehomed by the vet without his consent, and took legal action.

There was a case in my area where a veterinarian rehomed a dog that was left for euthanasia when the owner could not afford treatment. A month or so after all this happened, the dog got loose and ran off. Days later the dog showed up at the original owners house.

There was threat of legal action and a few days of local TV news stories. The state licensing board investigated. In the end, the veterinarian retired amidst all the controversy.

My veterinarian (different dude) once told me that for every 10 dogs that present needing a C-section, he euthanizes 8. Most people that can afford it have their dogs spayed. Those that choose not to often have no money. The few cesareans he does do are mostly breeders.

[Sampiro]

My veterinarian (different dude) once told me that for every 10 dogs that present needing a C-section, he euthanizes 8. Most people that can afford it have their dogs spayed. Those that choose not to often have no money. The few cesareans he does do are mostly breeders.

Out of curiosity (my dogs are both male), any estimates on how much a cesarean costs? I wouldn't think it would be one of the more expensive but I have no basis greater than a hunch for wondering.

Great post all around KarlGrenze. So what's the most complicated surgery you've ever witnessed? Do vets do transplants for instance?

[KarlGrenze]

Out of curiosity (my dogs are both male), any estimates on how much a cesarean costs? I wouldn't think it would be one of the more expensive but I have no basis greater than a hunch for wondering.

Great post all around KarlGrenze. So what's the most complicated surgery you've ever witnessed? Do vets do transplants for instance?

There are some cases of having done transplants (IIRC, kidney transplants), but those reports are few and far in between. They're expensive surgeries, after all, and I don't know how they found donor dogs or their criteria for getting the kidneys, etc. I'm sure the owners got a big discount in what probably was a very expensive surgery, because of the risks and novelty.

I don't think a C-section is among the most expensive surgeries out there, though certainly more expensive than a regular spay. In fact, depending on how it is done, the surgery IS a spay, just with the side benefit of getting squirmy little pups too.

Among the most complicated (and expensive) surgeries are orthopedic and ophthalmic surgeries. Both deal with nifty expensive instruments, and require a bit more knowledge of biomechanics and optics, respectively, than regular surgery. Cool to observe, I don't want to do it.

[kiz]

Three years ago we spent close to 2K for treatments/operations on my husband's beloved malamute who had cancer. A treatment/operation would be done, Missy would be fine for a couple of months, then tumors would suddenly reappear. The only way we could pay for it was through Care Credit, which not only had a low interest rate, but was accepted by nearly all vets in my area.

Unfortunately we had to put down Missy when her cancer started spreading. We were told by the vet oncologist that her treatment would add on another 2K or thereabouts; in our case, it was a quality of life question since no promises could be made that Missy would go into indefinite remission after the operation. Our vet charged us, I believe, around $100 for both the euthanasia and cremation fee. It's usually around $300, but she gave us a discount since we'd gotten to be good friends through Missy.

[Shodan]

So this may be a naive and stupid question: what happens when a pet needs an operation and his owner/s can't afford it? (The vet recommended a particular petcare credit card, but that assumes you have good credit.) I completely understand that a vet has to pay their staff and their bills and their mortgage and all and is highly qualified and is not working a charity, but this has to be a frequent decision: is it common for animals who are unhealthy but can be helped to be put to sleep? My father was a veterinarian in small animal practice for almost forty years. IME and his, generally the animal is euthanized. This is rather common.

Because, as mentioned, it is not a charity. I am not aware that my father or his partner ever agreed to euthanize a dog that needed an expensive operation and then operate on the animal and try to find a home for it. It wouldn't have been ethical, since the client had to pay for the euthanasia, and generally it is unethical to charge for a service and not provide it.

He also didn't generally vary his fees based on ability to pay, because, as also mentioned, many people will claim poverty if they think they can get away with it. Lots of other people are better at promising to pay than actually forking over. In emergency care, this is especially marked - folks who will say "cure my poor doggie and hang the expense!" sometimes change their tune when they are required to come up with the fee before service is rendered.
Or are there any agencies or charities that will help with this?Yes, there are some. I recommend talking to them before having the pet treated rather than after.
Completely unrelated but something I've wondered before and even though it seems like a very stupid question I'll ask: this again was major surgery- requires anesthesia, qualified surgeon, post-op care, etc., and it was $1,800. If it had been done to me (God forbid) in a human hospital, it would have been closer to $180,000. Some of the same drugs are used in the IV and painkillers that would be used with me.

What is the biggest difference in price variation twixt veterinary procedures and human procedures? Is it the fees of the surgeon, the hospital, or what exactly?There are a number of factors. Malpractice insurance is certainly one. The much lower cost of drugs is another. You can often buy the same drugs from the same salesmen, and if it is formulated for humans it costs five or ten times more than for a dog or a cat. Partly that is because dogs and cats are smaller, Partly that is because the standards for animals are not nearly as stringent as for humans. Partly that is because dogs and cats don't sue. When my dad was in practice, the most you could sue for in cases of veterinary malpractice (that may not be the correct legal term, but you know what I mean) was the fair market value of the animal, and a used dog is not worth that much. And I don't believe you can recover for the "pain and suffering" of a pet. A cow or race horse or some animal that generates revenue for someone is one thing; Whiskers the kitty is another. A vet might have to pay a few thousand if he shoots a race horse for a hoof infection that could have been treated with a shot of antibiotics, but the same mistake with a mutt doesn't cost nearly as much.

The major factor in lower vet costs than human medical costs, IMO, is that people tend to value their pets less than humans. Certainly there are any number of folks who will say "my cat is just like my child", but when the rubber meets the road and they are confronted with the possibility of dropping a significant amount of money on the cat, they don't really mean "I will spend my life savings on the cat". Some do, but most are more realisitc.

It is fairly easy to justify spending $18,000 on a child or a spouse. A pet? Most people won't spend more than they can afford, however much they may regret it.

Regards,
Shodan

[KarlGrenze]

The much lower cost of drugs is another. You can often buy the same drugs from the same salesmen, and if it is formulated for humans it costs five or ten times more than for a dog or a cat. Partly that is because dogs and cats are smaller, Partly that is because the standards for animals are not nearly as stringent as for humans. Partly that is because dogs and cats don't sue. When my dad was in practice, the most you could sue for in cases of veterinary malpractice (that may not be the correct legal term, but you know what I mean) was the fair market value of the animal, and a used dog is not worth that much. And I don't believe you can recover for the "pain and suffering" of a pet. A cow or race horse or some animal that generates revenue for someone is one thing; Whiskers the kitty is another. A vet might have to pay a few thousand if he shoots a race horse for a hoof infection that could have been treated with a shot of antibiotics, but the same mistake with a mutt doesn't cost nearly as much.


Depends on the drug. With the advent of generics and some places offer $4 for a month's worth of prescription drugs, sometimes the veterinarians write the prescription and tell the owners to go get it at the same human pharmacies. Thanks to (IIRC) AMDUCA, veterinarians can prescribe human drugs if there are no equivalent species-specific drugs. They can also prescribe them even if there is an animal specific drug, but that would be "outside" or off-label use... the vet is on his/her own if something happens to the animal. Note that this last use is not rare. Many treatments that are considered standard of practice include use of human drugs (at an appropriate dosage)... The reason is that some pharmaceutical industries have decided that once a drug is approved for human use, they don't want to go into the research and paperwork to get it animal-labeled.

Also, animal drugs can be more expensive if they have to be compounded due to the animal's size (too small or too big), or if they have to be put into suspension instead of in a pill or tablet.

Veterinary malpractice is the correct term. I think the exact laws regarding how an owner can sue the vet for damages and malpractice varies by state, with some being like you mentioned, and others also adding suing for the medical costs. There was talk some of my classes about movements to include a "pain and suffering" clause.

[Ferret Herder]

A cousin who worked for a vet that dealt mostly with reptiles (mainly pythons and iguanas) said they had a major problem with stoner kids (whether 18 or 40) who would buy these animals because they thought they were cool and alternative, then panic the first time it either had a health problem (which for snakes and lizards is rarely cheap) or the first time it went snake or lizard and abandon it at the vet if they could. If they couldn't they'd abandon it at the animal shelter (which didn't take snakes or exotic pets) or just abandon it. This was on the Gulf Coast, and they still have a major problem with pythons and iguaners gone wild in some regions.
Yeah, I can believe that. This was a dad and daughter with their bunny, but they had to treat everyone like potential abandoners. And for all I know, maybe they did have respectable-looking families giving fake info and leaving their critter behind.

I had a college roommate who bought an iguana of all things, and sure enough, within two years she had (fortunately) found him a home with a reptile owner with a lot of experience and plenty of room for large reptiles.

KarlGrenze, I had a ferret with a heart problem who needed digoxin in liquid form. They recommended either a veterinary compounding pharmacy, or just going to a human pharmacy, as human infants/toddlers with heart problems might be prescribed digoxin as well. I work at a medical center, so I went to the outpatient pharmacy at work, and handed over the prescription, with the name "Regina Herder" (Regina was the ferret's name, 'Herder' being my own surname). The pharmacist looked at the scrip, did a double-take, and asked what the weight was of the infant. I told him it was an under-two-pound ferret, not a human, and he visibly relaxed. He thought it was a prescribing error.

[Kingspades]

"TODAY IS A GLORIOUS DAY TO DIE!"
Thank you for this - any thread where I have to stifle laughter to prevent unwanted coworker attention is a winner.

[Shodan]

Veterinary malpractice is the correct term. I think the exact laws regarding how an owner can sue the vet for damages and malpractice varies by state, with some being like you mentioned, and others also adding suing for the medical costs.
Quite true - I should have said this.

Regards,
Shodan

[Sigmagirl]

Sampiro, I don't know about donating to help dogs in general, but most breeds have breed rescue organizations in need of support. Romansperson mentioned greyhound rescue; I support CorgiAid (http://www.corgiaid.org/), which provides medical care for corgis and corgi mixes in rescue so they can get healthy enough to be adopted. As your dog is a rat terrier, you might be interested in contributing to American Rat Terrier Rescue (http://www.americanratterrier.com/); their web site says their dogs are "evaluated for general health and inoculated against distemper, corona, bordetella, paravirus, parvo and rabies. After the Rat Terrier is restored to good physical and emotional health and spayed or neutered the search begins for the best and most appropriate home."

Look at the "Rescues" link and you'll see some of the dogs they've sponsored: Louie, with his badly broken leg, Lucy with bad skin problems, Earl with epilepsy. Somebody has to pay for that. You say For this reason I'd love to donate (once I've paid this off) to an agency that provides this type of emergency assistance. Does anybody know of one?

There you go.

[Long Time First Time]

There are some cases of having done transplants (IIRC, kidney transplants), but those reports are few and far in between. They're expensive surgeries, after all, and I don't know how they found donor dogs or their criteria for getting the kidneys, etc. It.

The University of Pennsylvania has a kidney transplant service for cats. A suitable donor is found at an animal shelter. One aspect of the program is that the owner of the cat that needs the transplant must adopt the donor kitty.
So, it's sort of win-win.

It would be unethical for a veterinarian to tell someone that their pet was being euthanized and then so something else with it. A euthanasia permit does not transfer ownership and does not give the vet the right to do whatever he or she feels like doing with the animal. As matter of fact - most laws/ethics guidelines very clearly state that ownership or co-ownership of an animal IS NOT an acceptable form of payment for veterinary services. {This is to prevent the following set of circumstances from happening: A race horse with good potential as a brood mare has a medical problem. The vet. would love to own a piece of her so that he can get a portion of the price of all her foals. So the vet gives some extremely elevated price for treatment, but agrees to co-ownership instead}.

However, there are a fair number of people who would like their pet to get fixed, they just can't afford it. They bring up the possibility of the vet. fixing it and finding a home for it. The vet. may have them sign over ownership of the animal along with a euthanasia permit. Then, when the animal becomes the property of the veterinary practice, it can be placed.

Where I practice we do it both ways - Either the owner signs a euthanasia permit or they sign a donation form. If their animal is donated they are told that we now hold all rights to the animal and we may try to fix it, or we may euthanize, or anything we please. I tell people that if they really want to know what the animal has and need a post mortem report, they should not donate it.

[Contrapuntal]

Oh, and as far as folks putting pets to sleep because they can't afford treatment? I don't know how often it happens, but I sure know it does, and I'd bet it's not uncommon.An ex co-worker of mine had a puppy put down because he had mange. It made me so angry I couldn't speak. I would have taken the dog in a heartbeat.

When I was at the vet's office three weeks ago, having my dog Grace euthanized (end of life with congestive heart failure), another owner was there and made the decision to euthanized because he didn't want to pay for surgery. He signed the euthanasia release papers and left, then the vet told the receptionist he'd do the surgery on his own dime and rehome the dog.
My vet has done the same thing.

Sampiro, PM me with your info. I'll gladly pay for your pet's care. Holy Cow! You just jumped to the top of the Coolest Dopers Ever list.

[Sampiro]

Holy Cow! You just jumped to the top of the Coolest Dopers Ever list.

Seconded. I'm just sorry for all the times I saw that "astride my Arabian" status and mistakenly cursed her for giving physical comfort and sensual rewards to terrorists.;) Were it not for my sister having my back I'd have availed myself.

I spent a long time at the vet's today. Mardi's doing as well as he's supposed to be, zonked out but recognized me and crawled into my lap, though they said he's being an ornery patient (which gives me more pride than it should; it's such a cool thing that a defining family trait passed into our dogs [my mother once woke up from a coma to attack an orderly* and the 18 pound rat terrier fights against a sedative then clings to the bars with his mouth and paws to delay going to sleep and when the assistant removed his cone to bathe him and left to answer a phone call thinking he was passed out she returned to find he had pulled his IV out- sorry for the trouble to them but I love that little boy]).

I had a long talk with the Lesbian on Duty. (Not a judgment call, just an observation and one for which I'm glad-

GODFATHER:
Amerigo Bonasera: "For justice, you to Don Corleone."

NORTHERN EXPOSURE:
Maurice Minnifield: "You want the best car you can get, you get you a Cadillac from Dee-troit and get a Cadillac, you want the best doctor, you get you a Jew from New York City."

ME:
"You want the hightest caliber of post-op dog care, get you a middle aged lesbian vet assistant (and a Trekkie to boot)."

Anyway, we talked for a long while, super cool super caring woman. I asked about a couple of the things in this thread, including the ratio of cats to dogs. She's been in the business for many years and said it's the same here- way more dogs in the hospital than cats. She also said that while she herself is a dog person and while she loves cats she's very grateful, because while Mardi has been 'difficult' (good boy!) he's docile as a newborn pup compared to most cats who she says are by far the worst patients of household mammalian pets. (This particular clinic doesn't treat birds or reptiles.)

Because they're so much closer to the jungle or the savannas than dogs and are much more independent and feral they're not likely to show pain until it's unbearable, which often means by the time they come to the vet they require major surgery. She said that cats fight surgery every step of the way and that if they haven't been declawed they often have to be as they'll scratch and bite and attack any way they can from the time they're brought in til they leave; she still has scars from a Persian years ago who didn't particularly want to be anesthetized. After surgery they're much harder to control, much more skilled at getting out of their cones or other restraints, and like my mother they only know that "I'm uncomfortable as hell and that bitch over there has something to do with it" [pretty much her words].

Just curious: is this the experience of others who've worked at vets?



*My mother was in ICU on amnesiac drugs and floating in and out of consciousness, rarely had any idea where she was or when it was on those occasions she had consciousness. When she came too after her medication had been reduced and she was in her first lucid moment in days it was to see a black male respiratory therapist with gold capped teeth hovering over her and checking her ventilation tube [she'd had a tracheotomy]. She reverted to wrestling training from 40+ years before to attack. He was stunned not just at the attack but the strength of the old woman. When she calmed down she apologized, and the nurse himself said "Look, you're an old white lady, don't know where you are except you're in a bed, and there's a big black guy with gold teeth in your face and holding you down... no offense taken, I'd have done the same thing. But damn baby, for a woman your age you got some serious adrenoline...".

[jay-c]

Also, Ohio State University does a certain amount of free/low cost stuff specifically for greyhounds through their Greyhound Health and Wellness Program (http://www.vet.ohio-state.edu/GHWP.htm). I know someone who got free chemo for her dog through them (it's one of things that donations pay for), and I've gotten a no-cost consult from them.



Ohio State provides free chemotherapy medications for all greyhounds, as well as free consultations for vets and owners on any greyhound health issue. I volunteer with the Greyhound Health and Wellness Program, and have seen firsthand how much time these consultations take out of their "normal" day... 3-4 hours, and they have clinic duty 7am-6pm every day on top of that. The stories of the dogs they have helped financially or paid for entirely is amazing, especially considering it is entirely funded by donations and the school itself does not pay a dime of it. These people truly are selfless, and spend their own money traveling to speak in educational forums around the world on top of all of that. As a greyhound owner, I feel very fortunate to live in Ohio and have Dr. Couto and his staff available for my pets. I know that they could not be in better hands.

One of my greyhounds was attacked by another dog the evening before Thanksgiving, and has already had 2 reconstructive surgeries in an attempt to save his leg. Though they are not involved in his care (he's a surgical case), the doctors in the GHWP have all sought him out and spent time with him, even if it was just to get him out of his cage for a while and scratch behind his ears. Without us even asking, the GHWP offered to help allay some of the cost of his care as well, knowing that it would be astronomical.

We've already paid $1000 for his first surgery, and he's been in the ICU since last week. We were told this morning that we still owe $2500, and that's after the GHWP covered some of the cost. We've had a very tough year - we've had 2 greyhounds die since February, and just managed to pay off the over $10k in credit card debt we'd racked up in paying for their care. At Christmas, and at a time when we can ill afford any additional expenses, the GHWP has truly been a godsend. Without their assistance, we would have been in a situation where we would have had to seriously consider euthanizing.

[jsgoddess]

Ask at your vet if they have programs for helping people who can't afford bills. I occasionally also will throw some money toward the Humane Society's account at my vet.

[Munch]

Holy Cow! You just jumped to the top of the Coolest Dopers Ever list.
Uh, yeah. My jaw dropped. That was the coolest thing I've seen on these boards in my 8+ years, truthbot.

Does anyone have pet insurance? This thread made me look up some quotes. ASPCA seems to have decent rates that I wouldn't feel ridiculous paying.

[Sampiro]

I wonder if it's possible to get sick dogs and cats signed up for a "clinical trial" type thing if it's in your area- for example experimentation involving stem cells that aren't quite ready for use on humans. Will research.

Does anybody use 1800PetMeds? Does it save you significantly?

I know that the government appropriated and private citizens and agencies raised millions for Katrina pets. I wonder if that money was all used and if not where the remainder went.

[KarlGrenze]

I wonder if it's possible to get sick dogs and cats signed up for a "clinical trial" type thing if it's in your area- for example experimentation involving stem cells that aren't quite ready for use on humans. Will research.

Yes, depends on the disease. If it is a school hospital, for example, they may have notices everywhere in the clinics reminding staff that if an animal meets xyz criteria, they're eligible for project ABC.

In the case of smaller private practices, they may team up with the school hospitals so that they can get a bigger pool of patients for their field projects. Similar thing may happen between private practices and private industries.


I know that the government appropriated and private citizens and agencies raised millions for Katrina pets. I wonder if that money was all used and if not where the remainder went.

I don't know how much of it was used, but I know it was used. That money covered recovery, boarding, and/or treatment for numerous companion animals (dogs, cats, and horses). They were housed in facilities provided by LSU, and attended mostly by Baton Rouge area veterinarians, including faculty from LSU, as well as many veterinary students (not just from LSU, but from other schools), and other volunteers.

[Hello Again]

The best veteriinary pharmacy I know of is smartpakcanine.

They don't carry as many products as 1-800-petmed.com, but for the products they do carry the prices are superior. Example:
Baytril (an antibiotic) taste tabs, 136mg
1800petmeds -- $4.49 per pill = $224 for 50
smartpakcanine -- $185 for bottle of 50
**however petmeds sells three other dosages, which smartpak doesn't.

I used this company all the time when I had a horse (the original line of business was equine nutraceuticals, then they added equine pharmacy, then canine/feline) and they are stellar to work with.

[horsetech]

Disclaimer: I'm a horsetech, not a cat tech. That said, I've spent some time shadowing a vet friend who does GP and emergency practice for dogs and cats and spent many hours talking shop with friends who have been dog/cat techs for years.

Yes, cats tend to be more freaked out and difficult to handle than dogs, on average, and most small animal techs do sport battle scars from cat claws. However, I have never heard of declawing as a method of dealing with a difficult patient. There are techniques -- scruff n' towel, cat bags, special ninjas with calming powers (just kidding, although some people are better than others at soothing wild beasts), and drugs to sedate cats for procedures like bandage changes.

[CrazyCatLady]

FWIW, fixing and rehoming an animal that needs something complex or expensive is vanishing rare. I've only ever seen it happen once, with my shepherd. She was a stray someone brought in to get checked out before they took her home and she turned out to have both heartworms and pyometra. Doc did the pyo surgery out of her own pocket, and I used my employee discount on the hw treatment.

Usually the pets I've seen rehomed have needed fairly minor things done--a few weeks ago I spent the better part of a day looking for placement for a cat that just needed some pain meds and a few weeks of cage confinement. And even with minor stuff, it's pretty rare for us to try to fix and rehome an animal rather than putting it down. It's rather hard to justify trying to adopt out one with health problems when a dozen perfectly healthy ones are dying at the shelter that very day, you know? But every once in a while there's one that just...has a certain something about them and you just can't bear to do it.

Mind you, I've never worked at a place that didn't ask the owner for permission to rehome the pet and offer to refund the cost of the euthanasia. I've also never heard of an owner saying no; they're generally delighted the critter's getting a second chance even if it's with someone else. Hell, a lot of them tell you to put the cost of the euthanasia toward the new owner's part of the treatment.

[Sampiro]

special ninjas with calming powers (just kidding,

Like Ninjas would stand a chance against a scared and pissed off cat.

[whatami]

Ohio State provides free chemotherapy medications for all greyhounds, as well as free consultations for vets and owners on any greyhound health issue. I volunteer with the Greyhound Health and Wellness Program, and have seen firsthand how much time these consultations take out of their "normal" day... 3-4 hours, and they have clinic duty 7am-6pm every day on top of that. The stories of the dogs they have helped financially or paid for entirely is amazing, especially considering it is entirely funded by donations and the school itself does not pay a dime of it. These people truly are selfless, and spend their own money traveling to speak in educational forums around the world on top of all of that. As a greyhound owner, I feel very fortunate to live in Ohio and have Dr. Couto and his staff available for my pets. I know that they could not be in better hands.

One of my greyhounds was attacked by another dog the evening before Thanksgiving, and has already had 2 reconstructive surgeries in an attempt to save his leg. Though they are not involved in his care (he's a surgical case), the doctors in the GHWP have all sought him out and spent time with him, even if it was just to get him out of his cage for a while and scratch behind his ears. Without us even asking, the GHWP offered to help allay some of the cost of his care as well, knowing that it would be astronomical.

We've already paid $1000 for his first surgery, and he's been in the ICU since last week. We were told this morning that we still owe $2500, and that's after the GHWP covered some of the cost. We've had a very tough year - we've had 2 greyhounds die since February, and just managed to pay off the over $10k in credit card debt we'd racked up in paying for their care. At Christmas, and at a time when we can ill afford any additional expenses, the GHWP has truly been a godsend. Without their assistance, we would have been in a situation where we would have had to seriously consider euthanizing.

I was directly involved with gh adoption for about a year (placement, the wife was on the board and did placements and we fostered at home).

Even out here in the NW, the GHWP and OSU vet program were well known. One of the local adoption programs has just started a partnership with Oregon State University's vet program. I fully support this, especially as a Beaver fan!

[SeaDragonTattoo]

What HorseTech said.

The declawing thing must have been mis-heard. It had to have been a reference to declawed cats being less "lethal" to handle, but not that it's a method used as a first line of defense used by vets or their staff. That's really not right.

And I am one of those techs that others seek out for my special feline Ninja skills. I have been called The Cat Whisperer. If the cat's crazy and can't be gotten out of the carrier, it looks like the only option is to IM sedate it through the carrier door or dump it in an anesthesia chamber -go get SeaDragon first! (Not that I'm bragging or anything)
:D

[StGermain]

My vet's costs on meds are less than I could get on-line. When Grace (the doberman) was on vetmedin for congestive heart failure, she needed 1 1/2 pills twice a day. About 100 a month. 1-800-pet-meds charges $80 for 50. My vet charged me $52.

As for the dog he saved, perhaps he talked the guy into giving him the dog. I know the guy left, went out to the parking lot, and came back in. And all he paid for her care was $50 ( I was sitting talking to the receptionist as all this was going on), which wouldn't be much for euthanasia and cremation. All I know is the receptionist was crying because they were euthanizing both my old, sick dog and this young healthy one that evening. Later the vet told her they weren't going to have to euthanize the young dog, that he'd be doing the surgery and rehoming her.

My vets are a couple who retired to Tennessee from Oregon and started this practice to have a little side income. They've had to add a third vet to the practice and are thinking of expanding the office because they're so busy. The husband complains a little, because his hobby is restoring old tractors and he never has time to do it.

StG

[badbadrubberpiggy]

Does anybody use 1800PetMeds? Does it save you significantly?
.

I've used it, when my cat Seth was on a vet insulin, but it wasn't much cheaper than getting it directly from our vet, so we didn't bother. The needles were cheaper than through the vet, but when he switched to a human insulin, it was cheaper to get everything at Walgreen's. I think the savings just depend on what you're getting and what other sources you have available to get it.

We had insurance for him, he was diabetic when we got him so it made sense, and when he got sick (brain tumor) it was a lifesaver, since all our vet visits were covered. Our vet will also work out a payment plan if you need it, too. Fortunately, we didn't, but if he wasn't insured, we would have.

ETA: We also got some free testing, because our vet suspected he had Cushing's, which is incredibly rare in cats - he was thinking of writing up a paper on Seth if that was the case.

[Sigmagirl]

How is your boy doing, Sampiro? I have fond thoughts of him wiggling in your lap in your YouTube debut.

[Sampiro]

How is your boy doing, Sampiro? I have fond thoughts of him wiggling in your lap in your YouTube debut.

He's "good as can be expected", thanks for asking. He has a little (actually a big) Frankenstein belly with all the stitches. My main worry is that his 'brother' (no relation actually) will be so thrilled to see him he'll hurt him, so I've set up a crate for him.

Ollie, the jackmut (half Jack Russell, half itinerant day laborer who came to dinner) is usually the most hyper dog on Earth when he's not being a total beanbag, but ever since Mardi's been away he's been pitiful; he's not eating like he usually does, he's constantly looking for something (Mardi I'm pretty sure), clingier than usual, and not nearly as playful. They've lived together for about 3 1/2 years and constantly squabble (few actual fights) but have rarely spent more than a night apart and while I might be anthropomorphizing a bit much I think ultimately they care about each other and Mardi missing is responsible for Ollie's weirdness. (They definitely both had a sort of mourning for my mother.) I've been wishing I could do the Vulcan mind meld on him to assure him "Mardi's okay". (Ollie's the one in this video (http://www.youtube.com/user/Sampiro#p/a/u/1/gYNJqhasmmk), Mardi [who had surgery] is the fat boy from this one (http://www.youtube.com/user/Sampiro#p/a/u/0/mA3GE6oAgi8).)

[rhubarbarin]

FWIW, fixing and rehoming an animal that needs something complex or expensive is vanishing rare. I've only ever seen it happen once, with my shepherd. She was a stray someone brought in to get checked out before they took her home and she turned out to have both heartworms and pyometra. Doc did the pyo surgery out of her own pocket, and I used my employee discount on the hw treatment.

Usually the pets I've seen rehomed have needed fairly minor things done--a few weeks ago I spent the better part of a day looking for placement for a cat that just needed some pain meds and a few weeks of cage confinement. And even with minor stuff, it's pretty rare for us to try to fix and rehome an animal rather than putting it down. It's rather hard to justify trying to adopt out one with health problems when a dozen perfectly healthy ones are dying at the shelter that very day, you know? But every once in a while there's one that just...has a certain something about them and you just can't bear to do it.

Mind you, I've never worked at a place that didn't ask the owner for permission to rehome the pet and offer to refund the cost of the euthanasia. I've also never heard of an owner saying no; they're generally delighted the critter's getting a second chance even if it's with someone else. Hell, a lot of them tell you to put the cost of the euthanasia toward the new owner's part of the treatment.

My Shepherd has a $3000 artificial elbow paid for by the staff of the emergency hospital. He was such a sweetheart even half-starved in such enormous amounts of pain, with a shattered leg and extensive bruising... that they all chipped in a few hundred dollars to save his leg. One of the techs was going to keep him, but her girlfriend vetoed it, and I knew the girlfriend, so they gave him to me. :)

[rhubarbarin]

He's "good as can be expected", thanks for asking. He has a little (actually a big) Frankenstein belly with all the stitches. My main worry is that his 'brother' (no relation actually) will be so thrilled to see him he'll hurt him, so I've set up a crate for him.

Ollie, the jackmut (half Jack Russell, half itinerant day laborer who came to dinner) is usually the most hyper dog on Earth when he's not being a total beanbag, but ever since Mardi's been away he's been pitiful; he's not eating like he usually does, he's constantly looking for something (Mardi I'm pretty sure), clingier than usual, and not nearly as playful. They've lived together for about 3 1/2 years and constantly squabble (few actual fights) but have rarely spent more than a night apart and while I might be anthropomorphizing a bit much I think ultimately they care about each other and Mardi missing is responsible for Ollie's weirdness. (They definitely both had a sort of mourning for my mother.) I've been wishing I could do the Vulcan mind meld on him to assure him "Mardi's okay". (Ollie's the one in this video (http://www.youtube.com/user/Sampiro#p/a/u/1/gYNJqhasmmk), Mardi [who had surgery] is the fat boy from this one (http://www.youtube.com/user/Sampiro#p/a/u/0/mA3GE6oAgi8).)

Aw. That's so sweet, I bet they will be so happy to see each other again. My dogs are very attached and will get upset if they get shut in different rooms.

[lindsaybluth]

One of my greyhounds was attacked by another dog the evening before Thanksgiving, and has already had 2 reconstructive surgeries in an attempt to save his leg.

My dog was attacked the night before Thanksgiving as well. Amazingly, the other dog was a female 11 year old Golden mix, offleash. He had on a chest harness, not quite 4 and a bullboxer. By the end, he had three scratches, and she was bleeding profusely. It was incredibly bizarre; her owners claimed she'd never been in a fight, but tons of dogs aren't properly socialized, via walking or simply playing with a variety of other dogs, so I assume this was the problem.

As for vet prices fluctuating Sampiro, in my parent's small town of 30 thousand people, it does vary. The local vet in a nicer neighborhood quoted my mom a price of $200 for a few shots and a test that were done for $60 at an office a bit off the beaten path. My mom was hesitant to try a new place that wasn't as "nice", but it turned out very well. Price fluctuation is a result of a variety of factors, but certainly not ability. Apparently the vet off the beaten path also had many more large breed dogs (good for us), and was even more liked by our bullboxer.

In the future, if you have the option, try calling around for pricing on various procedures. You'd be surprised (as we certainly were) with what you'll find out.

[horsetech]

My dog was attacked the night before Thanksgiving as well. Amazingly, the other dog was a female 11 year old Golden mix, offleash. He had on a chest harness, not quite 4 and a bullboxer. By the end, he had three scratches, and she was bleeding profusely. It was incredibly bizarre; her owners claimed she'd never been in a fight, but tons of dogs aren't properly socialized, via walking or simply playing with a variety of other dogs, so I assume this was the problem.

As for vet prices fluctuating Sampiro, in my parent's small town of 30 thousand people, it does vary. The local vet in a nicer neighborhood quoted my mom a price of $200 for a few shots and a test that were done for $60 at an office a bit off the beaten path. My mom was hesitant to try a new place that wasn't as "nice", but it turned out very well. Price fluctuation is a result of a variety of factors, but certainly not ability. Apparently the vet off the beaten path also had many more large breed dogs (good for us), and was even more liked by our bullboxer.

In the future, if you have the option, try calling around for pricing on various procedures. You'd be surprised (as we certainly were) with what you'll find out.
(emphasis added)

Lindsaybluth, the underlined sentence may be true to a certain extent and for certain things (e.g., vaccines), but there are causes of variability in pricing that DO affect the experience and possibly outcome for the animal, even if it's not apparent up-front. Unfortunately, most pet owners are not aware of the differences in practices or what is considered by the profession at large to be modern standards of care -- they have to trust the vet. -I promise you, the cheap $75 spay is almost certainly NOT getting the same level of care and pain control as the $200 spay.
Some examples of things that are affected by price and can vary dramatically between practices:
- amount of pain control used
- use of modern drugs which are pricier but have fewer side effects (it's true that some old drugs are just as effective as their new counterparts, but when you are talking about things like anesthetic drugs, the new and expensive drugs often provide both greater efficacy and fewer side effects)
- whether a catheter is set and fluids run for anesthesia:
It saves money not to set a catheter, but if the animal has a problem and you don't have vascular access you can be up shit's creek - once their blood pressure has tanked, it can be near-impossible to secure an IV in a timely manner. IV fluids also help keep their blood pressure up and protect their kidneys from the effects of the anesthetic drugs. There should also be someone (at least a trained tech) dedicated solely to anesthesia, not just the doctor looking over now and then.

These things are often not apparent up front; you'd have to know what to look for and ask specifically.

To give you a situation from my own experience, my friend's equine vet (for whom I worked for several years) charges more than most horse vets in the area. Almost everyone else at her barn uses Dr. X, who charges less and has been in the area for a long time. He has some completely off-the-wall diagnostic and prescribing habits, but people love him because they don't know better, so when he says "Your horse need drug X," or, "No, he doesn't need an ultrasound or x-rays to diagnose his lameness, just give him some Bute (horse aspirin) and keep riding him" they believe him. Why wouldn't they? They didn't go to vet school. And yet, I've seen him give horses drugs that were completely inappropriate for even the imaginary diagnosis (imaginary as in none of the other, board-certified horse vets I talked to had heard of diagnosing a horse with such), as I confirmed by consulting veterinary textbooks and conversations with multiple other vets.

I guess my situation is not directly relevant to the idea of looking around for a better price on a specific procedure, but it shows you how animal owners are not in a position to accurately judge the quality of their pet's care, just as people are not very good at judging the quality (by which I mean general adherence to high standards of practice) of their health care.

I'm not denying that there are good vets who are cheaper than others and bad vets who are expensive, but high quality care is more expensive to provide (drugs, technical support) than minimal care. If you are on a tight budget, sure, minimal care is vastly better than no care, but don't pride yourself too much on getting a deal on vet care.

[needscoffee]

Does anybody use 1800PetMeds? Does it save you significantly?1800PetMeds is often one of the more expensive online sites, maybe because of how much they advertise. There are many cheaper ones. Google what you need and compare prices; they fluctuate often. I usually use Omaha Vaccine (http://www.omahavaccine.com/), but there are plenty of others. I found tremendous savings with them compared to the vet when I needed to get Atopica. Also, they carry a cheaper version of Advantage called Biospot which is less than 1/3 the price.

[lindsaybluth]

(emphasis added)
-I promise you, the cheap $75 spay is almost certainly NOT getting the same level of care and pain control as the $200 spay.
Some examples of things that are affected by price and can vary dramatically between practices:
- amount of pain control used
- use of modern drugs which are pricier but have fewer side effects (it's true that some old drugs are just as effective as their new counterparts, but when you are talking about things like anesthetic drugs, the new and expensive drugs often provide both greater efficacy and fewer side effects)
- whether a catheter is set and fluids run for anesthesia:

I guess my situation is not directly relevant to the idea of looking around for a better price on a specific procedure, but it shows you how animal owners are not in a position to accurately judge the quality of their pet's care, just as people are not very good at judging the quality (by which I mean general adherence to high standards of practice) of their health care.

I'm not denying that there are good vets who are cheaper than others and bad vets who are expensive, but high quality care is more expensive to provide (drugs, technical support) than minimal care. If you are on a tight budget, sure, minimal care is vastly better than no care, but don't pride yourself too much on getting a deal on vet care.

Thanks for pointing that out, I definitely should clarify. First of all, I was talking only strictly about cats and dogs; I know zero about horses and other exotic animals. I was referencing the OP, so specifically for dogs. Still though, for large procedures, I certainly would shop around and compare prices, obviously asking for what the procedure does and doesn't include. If one doctor has more training and a higher overhead (health care, building location, etc) than another, you're paying his or her educational costs and their increased overhead in every procedure, like shots and the like.

I guess I assumed people on the SDMB are a touch smarter (now sans joining fee, it's obviously up for debate) than the general populace - I was assuming they could better judge their pets care just as they would their own. I certainly know how rare this is, as my father is a physician with excellent results and pretty awful bedside manner; people often think his attitude is a reflection of their care. Heh, speaking of bedside manner, my mom was never told our dog was getting chubby by the first vet; the second one came right out and said in the first 5 minutes that he couldn't gain more weight, and told her point blank to stop giving him people food. Our more expensive vet wouldn't have dared to tell an owner so directly.

Incidentally, when my dog was neutered (he was abandoned, we adopted, etc) we went with the expensive procedure because it included anesthetic and they watched him for hours, both of which he wouldn't have received though a deeply discounted procedure available for bully breed pups.

Just as you'll get rogue doctors, you'll get rogue vets, but the vast majority aren't going to be like Dr. X.

[toodlepip]

Incidentally, when my dog was neutered (he was abandoned, we adopted, etc) we went with the expensive procedure because it included anesthetic and they watched him for hours, both of which he wouldn't have received though a deeply discounted procedure available for bully breed pups.


Someone's neutering dogs without anaesthesia?? :eek:

[Sampiro]

I'm glad to read this about mixed amount of attention.

There's a spay/neuter place here in town where that's all they do- no other services, just spaying and neutering- and they're a lot cheaper than vets (<$100 compared to >$200 at other places) and I've considered taking my Jack Russell mix there, particularly now that the other is neutered (and Ollie is wild so if there's even a chance it might make him a bit less agressive with other dogs it's worth it). Now I want to learn what they give by way of follow up.

[horsetech]

Lindsaybluth, good post. As you mentioned, more money often gets you better anesthetic drugs and better follow-up. Also, depending on the procedure and assuming I had the money, I WOULD consider it worth it to spend more on a vet with higher overhead and more education, because that higher overhead is likely to mean better paid and more experienced staff, and more education and experience with the particular procedure (e.g., complicated orthopedic procedures) means a higher likelihood of having a good outcome.

As for shots and such, some people feel better paying more for vaccinations at the expensive vet because it means that they have an established rapport before they have to use the vet's more expensive procedures in which the price difference does affect outcome (you'd be hard-pressed to argue that you are getting a better service if the vet charges $40 for a vaccine vs $15 for the same brand). It's also quite reasonable that some people would rather save money on routine visits so that they have more money to take their dog to a specialty hospital when something serious happens.