NFL Hall of Fame Class of 2013 Thread

[Superhal]

Which NFL players, if they retired this year, would be in the Hall of Fame?

Take out the obvious ones: Farve, Peyton, Moss, Brady, Tony Gonzalez,

Possibly contentious: Tomlinson

My personal votes:
Michael Vick: the dude ran for 1k yards. 1k yards!! As far as I know, he's the greatest running QB of all time.
Ben Rothlisberger: to prove a point one time, I cut and pasted his NFL records to a message board from Wikipedia...it didn't fit in the window.
Jason Elam and Adam Vinatieri: not likely, but I like them.
Marvin Harrison: He's on lots of the all-time lists, but not on the top of them.
Casey Hampton: If he gets in, it would be on (a well-deserved) reputation, rather than stats, vote. Widely considered to be the best 3-4 nose tackle today, 2 SB rings.

[Oakminster]

I have a better shot at making the NFL Hall of Fame than Michael Vick does. I never played in the league, but then again, I never ran a dog fighting operation.

[VarlosZ]

Tomlinson is a lock. He was the best RB in the league for at least half a decade. Marvin Harrison is also a lock.

Other "hit by a freight train tomorrow" sure things:

Ray Lewis
Brain Urlacher
Terrell Owens
Champ Bailey
Orlando Pace


That's all I can think of at the moment. There are a lot of guys who are probables (Walter Jones), or who can become locks if they stay healthy and competent for another few years (Ed Reed). And I'm sure I'm forgetting some really obvious names.

[Marley23]

I think two of the most interesting candidates would be Donovan McNabb and Kurt Warner. McNabb's been consistently successful, and without much help at wideout, but I don't think he is viewed as one of the very best QBs by anyone, and Warner's had great stats but also has a New York-shaped hole in the middle of his career.

Vick would not get in in a million billion years. He had a couple of very impressive seasons, but between the enormous dogfighting scandal, his other, now-forgotten embarrassments (Ron Mexico, anybody?), and the fact that his Falcons teams were not that successful overall would keep him out. Flashes of brilliance are not enough. He may be a starting QB again next year, but I'm guessing he is not going to be on a good team and putting up crazy stats.

[Omniscient]

First off, they need to be retired for 5 years. I think technically, retiring now would be the same as retiring at the end of the year and they would be the class of 2015, not 2013.

Which NFL players, if they retired this year, would be in the Hall of Fame?

Take out the obvious ones: Farve, Peyton, Moss, Brady, Tony Gonzalez,

Possibly contentious: Tomlinson

There is no scenario where Tomlinson is remotely contentious. He's a lead pipe lock.

My personal votes:
Michael Vick: the dude ran for 1k yards. 1k yards!! As far as I know, he's the greatest running QB of all time.

So what? QBs are paid to throw the ball and win games. This is like voting a WR to the Hall because he ran the reverse better than anyone else.

Ben Rothlisberger: to prove a point one time, I cut and pasted his NFL records to a message board from Wikipedia...it didn't fit in the window.
He shouldn't get in based on numbers, but Bradshaw got in too. Ben wouldn't get in if he quit now, but if he plays the same way for 5+ more years he's a lock. As it stands I don't think he's been nearly good enough to get the Gale Sayers treatment.

Jason Elam and Adam Vinatieri: not likely, but I like them
No kickers. They probably are the most deserving though, of the two Vinatieri is more likely because of the playoff kicks.

Marvin Harrison: He's on lots of the all-time lists, but not on the top of them.

See Tomlinson.

Casey Hampton: If he gets in, it would be on (a well-deserved) reputation, rather than stats, vote. Widely considered to be the best 3-4 nose tackle today, 2 SB rings.

Widely considered? Really? He may get in, Steelers get an inordinate amount of love and Super Bowls matter, but I highly doubt he exceeds the credentials of about 5 or 6 other guys there. Hell, Wilfork and Shaun Rogers probably rank higher. For as good as the Steelers D is they haven't ever really been singular like the '85 Bears, '01 Ravens or '02 Bucs and Hampton probably isn't even the 3rd most notable player on that squad.

There's quite a few Defensive guys who'd be locks. Lewis, Urlacher, Ed Reed, Champ Bailey, Dwight Freeney, Darren Sharper, Jared Allen maybe, Jason Taylor for starters, Polamalu is getting close but probably needs more time.

There are a bunch of OLs that would get in too. Steve Hutchinson, Orlando Pace, Jeff Saturday off the top of my head. Antonio Gates probably is a lock too.

[ElvisL1ves]

Tom Brady hasn't even been mentioned yet?

[Tom Scud]

Tom Brady hasn't even been mentioned yet?

The OP:


Take out the obvious ones: Farve, Peyton, Moss, Brady, Tony Gonzalez,

[VarlosZ]

There's quite a few Defensive guys who'd be locks. Lewis, Urlacher, Ed Reed, Champ Bailey, Dwight Freeney, Darren Sharper, Jared Allen maybe, Jason Taylor for starters, Polamalu is getting close but probably needs more time.

There are a bunch of OLs that would get in too. Steve Hutchinson, Orlando Pace, Jeff Saturday off the top of my head. Antonio Gates probably is a lock too.
Agree on Hutchinson and Saturday. Taylor is a "probably" and Sharper is a "maybe." Freeney and Jared Allen need at least a few more seasons (and Freeney will get dinged for not playing the run).

Gates is interesting. Of course if he puts in a few more good seasons he's a lock, but is he in if he wakes up dead tomorrow? Hmmm. Yeah, probably.

[kenobi 65]

I think Vinatieri stands a reasonable chance, for being such a clutch kicker in the playoffs, and in lousy weather.

[gonzomax]

Vick added a dimension to the game. he was fun to watch. He also lost a lot.
His career is short. He would have to flesh it out in his comeback ,but that is not happening. He has been a place filler.

[kenobi 65]

Vick added a dimension to the game. he was fun to watch. He also lost a lot.
His career is short. He would have to flesh it out in his comeback ,but that is not happening. He has been a place filler.

Absolutely. Even if you were to set aside the off-the-field issues, he hasn't been good enough, for nearly long enough, to merit even serious consideration.

Yes, he may well be the best running QB in NFL history...but that's only one dimension of what a QB does (and most would argue that it's of secondary importance). His career passer rating is only 75.5. He's never completed more than 55% of his passes, in an era where anything under 60% really isn't acceptable. And, before his legal troubles, he only played in 4 full seasons, plus parts of two others.

[Omniscient]

Another obvious lock I forgot, Junior Seau.

[Omniscient]

Vick added a dimension to the game. he was fun to watch. He also lost a lot.
His career is short. He would have to flesh it out in his comeback ,but that is not happening. He has been a place filler.

Vick has a career winning percentage of .588, which is really impressive considering he was a #1 overall draft pick and went to a team that not only had a crappy record when he arrived but also shipped picks to move up and get him. Vick was a lot of things, but saying he "lost a lot" is just false.

ETA: The guys Wiki page is totally nuts, just tons of stuff there.

[Darth Sensitive]

Welker?

[Omniscient]

Welker?

He hasn't even played 6 seasons yet and has only been a starter for two and a half. You're kidding, right?

[Darth Sensitive]

He hasn't even played 6 seasons yet and has only been a starter for two and a half. You're kidding, right?

Apologies, thread title says 2013, but I was just thinking generic "future". Yes, he'll have to continue producing on this level to keep going.

[BuzzSaw101]

If Ben Rothlisberger doesn't get in, he would be only the second quarterback with 2 Super Bowl rings not in the Hall. Jim Plunkett is the other one.

[Superhal]

Hmm, for some strange reason I thought it was 2008. Yes, it should be class of 2014.

[Jules Andre]

I think two of the most interesting candidates would be Donovan McNabb and Kurt Warner. McNabb's been consistently successful, and without much help at wideout, but I don't think he is viewed as one of the very best QBs by anyone, and Warner's had great stats but also has a New York-shaped hole in the middle of his career.
I'm an Eagles fan, and as big a McNabb supporter as there is, and I don't think he belongs in the Hall. If he wins a ring, he would probably get in.

I honestly don't understand how anyone could leave Warner out. I can't fathom it. Okay, yeah I can. That four year hole is pretty bad, but a lot of it was injuries. Personally, I give him even more credit for coming back from it and being so effective now. Either way, he's a two-time MVP and a Super Bowl MVP. Tough to leave him out.

I think a Brian Dawkins has a shot as the leader of a defense with a good reputation for a decade. Even aside from that association, he was a top guy at his position for close to a decade too. He's the only one I come up with that hasn't yet been mentioned.

[Superhal]

Wow, TO only holds one record and no rings. I could have sworn he won one with the 49'ers.

One thing I'm noticing about this thread: there appears to be a consensus that if you have stats or rings, you deserve to go into the HOF. Ben has both, so the what's the issue?

We should name them:
The Marino rule: If a player holds multiple all-time records but no rings, they deserve to go into the hall.
The Montana Rule: If a player holds 3 or more rings, but mediocre stats, they deserve to go into the hall.

[Ellis Dee]

Vick has a career winning percentage of .588, which is really impressive considering he was a #1 overall draft pick and went to a team that not only had a crappy record when he arrived but also shipped picks to move up and get him. Vick was a lot of things, but saying he "lost a lot" is just false.All that applies to Eli Manning just as much (if not more) than Vick.

[Hawkeyeop]

We should name them:
The Marino rule: If a player holds multiple all-time records but no rings, they deserve to go into the hall.
The Montana Rule: If a player holds 3 or more rings, but mediocre stats, they deserve to go into the hall.

Montana has mediocre stats?

Mcnabb's a yes though it is close. I'll throw Mcnair in as well, who is likely to still be on the ballot at that point.

Warner, Big Ben are no's though Ben could still prove worthy. They are good players in great environments rather than great players.

[Omniscient]

Ben has both, so the what's the issue?

He's only been playing since 2004. And it's not like he carried them to that first SB, they were defense first teams. There's no way he gets in right now.

All that applies to Eli Manning just as much (if not more) than Vick.

So? What's your point? Was someone somewhere saying that Eli loses a lot?

[Really Not All That Bright]

Tomlinson is a lock. He was the best RB in the league for at least half a decade. Marvin Harrison is also a lock.

Other "hit by a freight train tomorrow" sure things:

Ray Lewis
Brain Urlacher
Terrell Owens
Champ Bailey
Orlando Pace
I don't understand why there could be any doubt about Tomlinson. He's not only the best running back of the last 15 years, he's arguably the best in every facet of the game. Straight-up rushing? 7 straight 1,200+ yard seasons (including six straight 1,400+ yard seasons). Short yardage and scoring? He's fourth on the all-time list (including Jerry Rice) and needs 7 more touchdowns to pass Marcus Allen for third... oh, and he holds the all-time season scoring/touchdown record. Receiving? Only running back in history with a 100-catch season, he's caught 50+ passes in eight straight seasons, and he's caught more than 500 passes in his career. Ball security? He's lost 12 fumbles on over 3300 career touches. Durability? He missed one start in his first 8 seasons; even Curtis Martin wasn't that tough. Oh, and he's got a 154.4 career passer rating and 7 touchdown passes on 11 attempts.

Brian Urlacher? Too much flash, not enough sizzle. He's the most overrated player in the league, and he's not even the second-best middle linebacker of his era. Of course, he probably will get in.

Much as I'd like for Owens to be shut out, the man has 145 total touchdowns. Considering that at wide receiver there's Jerry Rice and everyone else, that might as well be considered an NFL record at the position.
I think two of the most interesting candidates would be Donovan McNabb and Kurt Warner. McNabb's been consistently successful, and without much help at wideout, but I don't think he is viewed as one of the very best QBs by anyone, and Warner's had great stats but also has a New York-shaped hole in the middle of his career.
Warner's had great stats, but he's also had four of the best receivers of the last 20 years to throw the ball to. I think his New York hole shows what kind of quarterback he is without elite talent around him.

I'm not saying he's a sort of NFL Ken Dorsey, just that he can't put a team on his back.

McNabb, on the other hand, has put his team on his back for his entire career. He won't get in without a ring or an MVP award, but he ought to.
Agree on Hutchinson and Saturday. Taylor is a "probably" and Sharper is a "maybe." Freeney and Jared Allen need at least a few more seasons (and Freeney will get dinged for not playing the run).

Gates is interesting. Of course if he puts in a few more good seasons he's a lock, but is he in if he wakes up dead tomorrow? Hmmm. Yeah, probably.
Taylor was a defensive player of the year and had more sacks than anyone else from 2000-2009 (barring some unlikely occurrences in the remainder of this season). He's in.

Sharper won't be in. He's a terrific player, but All-Pro free safeties seem to be everywhere nowadays. Polamalu, Ed Reed, Dawkins, Bob Sanders... Now, if Sharper plays three or four more years (unlikely) and keeps up this level of play (really unlikely) then all bets are off.

Freeney is too one-dimensional to make the HoF. If his numbers were truly eye-popping, then yeah, he'd be in, but they really aren't; in 8 seasons he has 80 sacks. He does have a DPOTY under his belt, which helps.

Gates is not worthy right now. That said, he's averaged 10.2 touchdowns over the last five seasons (ie., his career, not including his rookie year or this one) and if he keeps that up, it'll be awful hard to keep him out. On the other hand, Shannon Sharpe set every record that Gates and Gonzo are currently rewriting, and the voters didn't put him in last year (which is a fucking travesty on the level of keeping Black Sabbath out of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame).
Wow, TO only holds one record and no rings. I could have sworn he won one with the 49'ers.

One thing I'm noticing about this thread: there appears to be a consensus that if you have stats or rings, you deserve to go into the HOF. Ben has both, so the what's the issue?

We should name them:
The Marino rule: If a player holds multiple all-time records but no rings, they deserve to go into the hall.
The Montana Rule: If a player holds 3 or more rings, but mediocre stats, they deserve to go into the hall.
The rings thing is silly. Are you going to vote Kevin Faulk into the Hall? He's got three rings. In fact, so has just about every longtime Patriot.

For my money, a player has to be in the discussion for the best player in the league at his position in order to be a Hall of Famer. That's why LaDanian Tomlinson is a lock and Corey Dillon isn't, even though Dillon's got a ring.

Here's an interesting candidate: the about to be retired Jamal Lewis. One monstrous season, and three very good ones - plus, he was the sum total of the Ravens offense in the Super Bowl year.

[Ellis Dee]

So? What's your point? Was someone somewhere saying that Eli loses a lot?I was trying to discredit your points in favor of Vick by noting another player who both meets all those same points and who is clearly not a hall of famer.

[Really Not All That Bright]

I thought he was kidding about Vick. He wouldn't get into the Hall of Fame even if he had a 4,000 yard passing season and hadn't gone to prison.

[gonzomax]

Vick has a career winning percentage of .588, which is really impressive considering he was a #1 overall draft pick and went to a team that not only had a crappy record when he arrived but also shipped picks to move up and get him. Vick was a lot of things, but saying he "lost a lot" is just false.

ETA: The guys Wiki page is totally nuts, just tons of stuff there.

Vick played 7 seasons. He played 8, 5, and 9 games in three of them. He played 4 full seasons and 3 partials. He does not qualify.

[Hamlet]

Here's an interesting candidate: the about to be retired Jamal Lewis. One monstrous season, and three very good ones - plus, he was the sum total of the Ravens offense in the Super Bowl year.Lewis is in there with Rickey Watters, Tiki Barber, Ottis Anderson, Shaun Alexander, and others who were good backs, maybe even great for a little bit, but not a great enough career for the HOF. And he's not got the "Gale Sayers" factor going for him either. Although Earl Campbell is in the hall, so there is hope.

[Ellis Dee]

I think Tiki Barber is head and shoulders above everyone else in that group, and even he would be a real stretch to make it. Tiki rushed for >10k, caught for >5k, and averaged 4.7 yards per carry.

Jamal Lewis rushed for the same basic yardage and touchdowns, caught less than half Tiki's receiving yardage, and averaged a full half yard less per carry.

Shaun Alexander really fell of a cliff. He scored double the touchdowns of Tiki, but a thousand fewer rushing yards, less than a third of Tiki's receiving yards and averaged .4 less per carry. Touchdowns alone don't make up the difference, especially when you factor in the lingering gimp image Tiki doesn't have due to early retirement.

Ricky Watters is real close. He basically got Tiki's same totals (minus 1000 receiving yards) but needed 400 more carries (a pedestrian 4.1 YPC) over a few more years to do it. He did score half again as many TDs as Tiki, though.

Ottis Anderson is a poor man's Ricky Watters. Same everything except only 4.0 per carry and a thousand fewer receiving yards.

Earl Campbell is worse than everyone listed, who all at least have 10k rushing yards. Earl has exactly 10,213 yards from scrimmage compared to >15k for Tiki, and a decent but not great 4.3 yards per carry.

[Marley23]

Brian Urlacher? Too much flash, not enough sizzle. He's the most overrated player in the league, and he's not even the second-best middle linebacker of his era. Of course, he probably will get in.
I second this.

Much as I'd like for Owens to be shut out, the man has 145 total touchdowns. Considering that at wide receiver there's Jerry Rice and everyone else, that might as well be considered an NFL record at the position.
And this. Nobody likes him and his personal flaws are extremely well documented, but even if he's dropped a lot of passes the last few years, he's done too much to be left out.

Warner's had great stats, but he's also had four of the best receivers of the last 20 years to throw the ball to. I think his New York hole shows what kind of quarterback he is without elite talent around him.

I'm not saying he's a sort of NFL Ken Dorsey, just that he can't put a team on his back.

McNabb, on the other hand, has put his team on his back for his entire career. He won't get in without a ring or an MVP award, but he ought to.
I can get behind this reasoning. Warner had some injuries in New York but he also had extreme fumble-itis, partly because he was holding on to the ball. If you put him in an offense with enough big play talent, he'll make the plays for sure. McNabb doesn't look as impressive but he's worked with much, much less, and he's never gotten enough credit for it in my opinion.

[Omniscient]

I was trying to discredit your points in favor of Vick by noting another player who both meets all those same points and who is clearly not a hall of famer.

Vick played 7 seasons. He played 8, 5, and 9 games in three of them. He played 4 full seasons and 3 partials. He does not qualify.

Have either of you read the thread? In no way shape or form am I hyping Vick or giving anything resembling an argument for him. All I did was discredit gonzomax's false statement about him losing a lot. For all the reasons to hate on Vick, the one and only thing he did do was win games.

[Omniscient]

Brian Urlacher? Too much flash, not enough sizzle. He's the most overrated player in the league, and he's not even the second-best middle linebacker of his era. Of course, he probably will get in.

This gets too much play. Urlacher probably gets a little too much attention due to being the great white hope, but he's a HoFer for sure. All the people who argue against him seem to misunderstand his purpose in the defense. Is he a Butkus, Singletary, Nitschke, Lambert type who blows guys up in the hole and unloads on guys across the middle? No. He gets compared to Ray Lewis who is great but plays a completely different style and scheme than Urlacher. Lewis essentially never is asked to go backwards and he blitzes and plays downhill, side-to-side and is asked to punish people. Urlacher is almost pure pursuit and coverage in the Bears scheme. He's got arguably the best range of any LB who has ever played and is maybe one of the best coverage LB that's ever suited up.

[Hamlet]

This gets too much play. Urlacher probably gets a little too much attention due to being the great white hope, but he's a HoFer for sure. All the people who argue against him seem to misunderstand his purpose in the defense. Is he a Butkus, Singletary, Nitschke, Lambert type who blows guys up in the hole and unloads on guys across the middle? No. He gets compared to Ray Lewis who is great but plays a completely different style and scheme than Urlacher. Lewis essentially never is asked to go backwards and he blitzes and plays downhill, side-to-side and is asked to punish people. Urlacher is almost pure pursuit and coverage in the Bears scheme. He's got arguably the best range of any LB who has ever played and is maybe one of the best coverage LB that's ever suited up.That must be why Ray Lewis has more interceptions and passes defended than Urlacher since Urlacher got in the league.

[VarlosZ]

I don't know about McNabb. I'm actually a pretty big defender of his, but he's never felt like a HOF'er to me. Should a guy who's consistently, say, the 4th-10th best QB in the league be in? Of course, he has played an awful lot of shitty receivers, so that may be coloring my judgement of him.

Anyway, I don't think he can get in without a ring. Even a very solid decline phase would only put him in Drew Bledsoe territory as far as counting stats go. He has been more efficient, though. Who knows?


I think if Antonio Gates can't play another down after this season, he gets the Gale Sayers treatment. Just my impression.

[ToeJam]

I think if Brees manages to win the Superbowl this year, and retired I think people would consider him for a chance at the HOF. Though then again, alot has to do with his team itself. But if the Saints run the table and he retires, I think he'd have a shot at the HOF.
Course that probably could be said for anyone who runs the table the entire season and chooses to retire probably. Just surprised to see he wasn't one of the eliminated people from the very start.

[Omniscient]

That must be why Ray Lewis has more interceptions and passes defended than Urlacher since Urlacher got in the league.

Ray Lewis is great, first ballot HoFer. Urlacher's numbers are very similar to Lewis', I'd say that speaks highly of him. Ironically, Urlacher has way more sacks than Lewis and a few more tackles if you toss out 2009.

[Really Not All That Bright]

Ray Lewis is great, first ballot HoFer. Urlacher's numbers are very similar to Lewis', I'd say that speaks highly of him. Ironically, Urlacher has way more sacks than Lewis and a few more tackles if you toss out 2009.
Er... what? Lewis has 1,003 career tackles over the last nine years, and Urlacher has 934... but that's because the NFL tackling statistics only go back to 2001. Lewis has 5 years' worth of tackles that aren't on his stat sheet.

If Urlacher can play for another five years at a Ray Lewis level, then he's a Hall of Famer. Do you really believe he will? He had no sacks, under a hundred tackles and only two picks last year. The decline has already begun.
Urlacher is almost pure pursuit and coverage in the Bears scheme. He's got arguably the best range of any LB who has ever played and is maybe one of the best coverage LB that's ever suited up.
That would be Mr. Derrick Brooks, although I certainly think you could make an argument that Urlacher is a better all-around player than Brooks.
I think if Brees manages to win the Superbowl this year, and retired I think people would consider him for a chance at the HOF. Though then again, alot has to do with his team itself. But if the Saints run the table and he retires, I think he'd have a shot at the HOF.
Course that probably could be said for anyone who runs the table the entire season and chooses to retire probably. Just surprised to see he wasn't one of the eliminated people from the very start.
As things stand, Brees has no shot. Kurt Warner is more deserving than Brees - he's got better career statistics and he's got a ring. Keep in mind that Brees has had 3 3/4 teriffic years for the Saints - but he only had one very good year with the Chargers. Not saying he can't get in, just that he can't get in if he retires at the end of this season - even if he wins the Super Bowl.

[Superhal]

I think McNabb will get in, the only people who don't love him are Philly fans.

I think if Brees held an all-time record, that would make the case.

[Omniscient]

Er... what? Lewis has 1,003 career tackles over the last nine years, and Urlacher has 934... but that's because the NFL tackling statistics only go back to 2001. Lewis has 5 years' worth of tackles that aren't on his stat sheet.

Read Hamlet's statement. My reply was in that context. And I specifically said "if you toss out 2009". Pay attention to details.

[Really Not All That Bright]

Well, the 2009 thing is fair, but my point is that Urlacher isn't good enough to get in on his current accomplishments, so the "since he entered the league" bit is irrelevant.

[Omniscient]

Well, the 2009 thing is fair, but my point is that Urlacher isn't good enough to get in on his current accomplishments, so the "since he entered the league" bit is irrelevant.

I think it's pretty close. Lewis is one of the best to ever play the game and Urlacher is in the vicinity of him on a lot of stats after a shorter career. That means he's been really productive since he's been in the league. If he performs at a similar level for another 5 years, then he's a lead pipe lock, but I think between his reputation and popularity he'd even get in tomorrow since his stats are close enough to not disqualify him.

[Really Not All That Bright]

I'll admit that his statistics are a bit better than I'd assumed when I said he was overrated (and he's missed a lot less games than I thought- I was under the impression that he'd been on IR three or four times).

I did say he'd probably get in just because he is so popular. However, I still don't think he's as good as he gets credited with being; I look at him like Ronde Barber - a perfect player for a specific system, but not a guy you could stick in anywhere and expect him to be a star.

That said, if Barber doesn't retire after this season, he might get in. He's arguably the best all-around football player ever to play his position.

[Omniscient]

I did say he'd probably get in just because he is so popular. However, I still don't think he's as good as he gets credited with being; I look at him like Ronde Barber - a perfect player for a specific system, but not a guy you could stick in anywhere and expect him to be a star.

That said, if Barber doesn't retire after this season, he might get in. He's arguably the best all-around football player ever to play his position.

Agreed, but I don't think being a perfect guy for a perfect system is a demerit. There's any number of players who wouldn't thrive in different systems, and being one of the best at what you do and having a system built around you is a hell of a credit. And while I agree that Urlacher would probably have struggled as a MLB on some old school, plug the middle schemes he'd almost certainly be a All-Pro and potential HoFer as a OLB, his speed, timing on the blitz and tackling ability would translate perfectly.

I'm not sold on Barber, he's very very good but I think he'd be too overshadowed but more traditional and higher profile corners. I'm not sure any CB will get in without being a lockdown corner, there's too much bias at that position and too many other guys who he'd compare poorly to.

[Superhal]

That said, if Barber doesn't retire after this season, he might get in. He's arguably the best all-around football player ever to play his position.

There's two ways a Cb can get in: being a great cover CB, or being a playmaker beyond his listed position.

In the former category, his stats and reputation aren't good enough. In the latter category, he will be compared to Ronnie Lott and Rod Woodson, and there's no way he's in that company. I think Aeneas Williams will create a new precedent if he gets in, and may help Ronde, but we'll see.

[Really Not All That Bright]

Lott was a safety, not a corner. As far as Woodson goes, his most impressive statistic is the all-time record for returning takeaways for scores, with 13. Guess who's second all-time, with 11? Also, guess who the all time sack leader among cornerbacks is?

[Hamlet]

Lott was a safety, not a corner. As far as Woodson goes, his most impressive statistic is the all-time record for returning takeaways for scores, with 13. Guess who's second all-time, with 11?Hitler?Also, guess who the all time sack leader among cornerbacks is?Stalin?

[Ellis Dee]

Have either of you read the thread? In no way shape or form am I hyping Vick or giving anything resembling an argument for him. All I did was discredit gonzomax's false statement about him losing a lot. For all the reasons to hate on Vick, the one and only thing he did do was win games.Gee, so sorry your highness. Maybe try expressing your positions more clearly and they won't be misconstrued.

[Jimmy Chitwood]

Lott was a safety, not a corner.

He was a (great) corner first.

And Ronde Barber can go into the Hall of Fame of biting me.