Navel/waist relative position

[Nava]

In a MPSIMS thread (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=543632&page=3), I declared that "the waist is at your navel's height" and got promptly told "is not."

So, after verifying that my navel and my waist are indeed at the same height, now I'm curious.

The dictionary isn't very helpful about how to define the waist, all m-w says is "the typically narrowed part of the body between the thorax and hip." Me, I'm used to considering it as "the point in someone's torso where that person's silhouette is narrower, if any." I think that, based on the other thread, some people make it "the point where someone's torso has the smallest circumference."

So if I can get it right, this is a double poll: where is your waist relative to your navel, and how do you define it.

The poll is secret and multiple choice.

[MeanOldLady]

Waist is the narrowest part. No bullshit, I got up and looked at a mirror to determine where my navel was relative to my waist. My navel is about one inchish lower than my waist.

[Noone Special]

I consider the waist to be right here the pelvis ends -- so probably lower (maybe significantly so) than the definitions offered above. Using this definition, I'd say my navel is about ~3 cm above the waist.

[zweisamkeit]

You promptly got told that your natural waist is not. I will agree that in this era, the waist for clothing lines is considered around the navel area.

These capris go up to the natural waist (http://www.mybabyjo.com/clothes/capdenim_lg.jpg).

These pants are at the modern waist (or juuuust below) (http://activeladieswear.com/images/Nike-Be-Strong-Dri-FIT-Pants.jpg).

Notice how freaking high up the capris are. Hardly anyone wears pants or skirts that high. If you watch old movies (Humphrey Bogart is a good example), you'll see that men wear their pants much higher than men today.

For the most part, natural waist pants are not flattering on many, since it can lead to your butt looking big or droopy. However, when wearing skirts (http://www.bergdorfgoodman.com/products/mn/BG-10HF_mn.jpg), a natural waist can elongate your body and accentuate the narrowest part of you (your natural waist), leading to a slimmer look.


So yes, you're right in that today's fashion, "waist" is around navel point. But the waist itself is the narrowest part of you, whether or not you wear your pants or skirt there.

[pan1]

Your Waist is the circumference at the top of your hip bones.

[Nava]

So yes, you're right in that today's fashion, "waist" is around navel point. But the waist itself is the narrowest part of you, whether or not you wear your pants or skirt there.

Do you need a picture? My navel is at my narrowest point! Yours isn't, great. Mine is, great too, ok? I also happen to have short legs (or a long torso), wide hips (with tiny hands and feet) and my circumference over the boobs is 95cm with 107cm at the hips. There is such a thing as different body shapes: you're hourglass, I'm guitar-shaped, your waist is above your navel, mine isn't.

[MeanOldLady]

You know what's strange about me getting up to look in the mirror to examine my waist and navel? I'm at work, so I went into a shared bathroom to look. There were people in there. Yes, I lifted up my shirt and looked at my stomach while other people were around. They were surely thinking, "What the hell is wrong with this crazy lady?"

[DiosaBellissima]

I'd wager a lot of money that the people that are saying the waist his below the belly button are men. You need to specify this thread is for women, since that's what the dispute is over.

Also:

Waist = narrower part of the silhouette.
Waist = part with smallest circumference.

Isn't that the same thing?

Oh and for what it's worth, my belly button is significantly below my waist. Hell, looking at a picture, my belly button is a little higher than the widest point of my hips and my waist is much higher than that.

[MeanOldLady]

Also:

Waist = narrower part of the silhouette.
Waist = part with smallest circumference.

Isn't that the same thing?You know, I didn't even notice that. I don't read good. I put narrowest part of the silhouette since it is, but that's because it has the smallest circumference. I suppose there's someone out there whose stomach protrudes, but the waist is narrowest on the silhouette? I'm not sure how that would be, but it could happen.

[cmyk]

Is this a Women-Only question?

Women have a totally different shape there than men. For guys, I'd agree the waist is around and just above the hips/pelvis.

I would've said the same for ladies, but now you have me wondering.

[ENugent]

You know, I didn't even notice that. I don't read good. I put narrowest part of the silhouette since it is, but that's because it has the smallest circumference. I suppose there's someone out there whose stomach protrudes, but the waist is narrowest on the silhouette? I'm not sure how that would be, but it could happen.

Yup, that's why I checked silhouette. My waist is the narrowest part of my silhouette, but the smallest circumference is up at my bra band. I've got a tummy.

[amarinth]

Hmmm,
for me the smallest circumference and the narrowest part of my silhouette are both up at my bra band. I would never call that my "waist" (this is true even when I'm thinner). And there's no way that wearing a skirt that high (or even one that's lower, but still pretty high) is going to be remotely flattering.

When I do measure my waist, I measure at my navel.

[Nava]

I'd wager a lot of money that the people that are saying the waist his below the belly button are men. You need to specify this thread is for women, since that's what the dispute is over.

I didn't mean it to be for women; the "no appreciable waist" lines are specifically based on several guys I know. One of my brothers is a rectangle, the other one's narrowest point is at his navel, higher than the top of the hipbones.

I guess I should have specified that I wasn't speaking of "the measurement your tailor calls waist," since that one changes with fashion and even by piece of clothing, but the poll is intended for both genders.

MeanOldLady, to find my mother's waist it's best to look from the back. From the back she has a clearly-defined waist; from the front, her Santa's belly kind of obscures the view; you can still see where the narrowest point is, but calling it a "waist" feels a bit like referring to "the richest guy" in an Amazonian tribe.

[Kaio]

Me, I'm used to considering it as "the point in someone's torso where that person's silhouette is narrower, if any." I think that, based on the other thread, some people make it "the point where someone's torso has the smallest circumference."

I don't understand how these two things are in any way different from each other. If your silhouette is narrower, your circumference would be also, by definition.

I'm very high-waisted; the narrowest part of my torso is right below my lowest set of ribs. My navel is about two inches below that.

[DiosaBellissima]

I didn't mean it to be for women; the "no appreciable waist" lines are specifically based on several guys I know. One of my brothers is a rectangle, the other one's narrowest point is at his navel, higher than the top of the hipbones.



Plenty of men, if not most, have visible waists. Fat or in shape, guys usually narrow down by their belly button. Think of an "in shape" guy- he's shaped like a V, not a block. So again, the male natural waist is lower than the female, which is going to skew your results here.

[Nava]

Apparently what you want to measure is not what I want to measure, Diosa.

Kaio, there's been several posts mentioning how it's possible for the narrowest point in the silhouette to not be the point with the smallest perimeter. My mother's smallest perimeter is directly under her breasts, the narrowest point in her silhouette is a couple inches lower.

[cmyk]

I've known some old men whose apparent wastline was under their armpits.

[Zjestika]

I see waist as where pants and especially skirts without elastic want to sit on my torso, and for me it's significantly, like 2 inches, above my belly button, right about where my rib cage starts. Skirts will ride themselves up to that point, and unless I want to belt at the hips I should belt a dress there, too, or the belt will ride up and perch.

[DiosaBellissima]

Apparently what you want to measure is not what I want to measure, Diosa.


Then what on Earth ARE you talking about? This beautiful, half dressed man here? (http://static-p4.fotolia.com/jpg/00/08/10/13/400_F_8101377_4ZSiUBUL0G8ZRCxKLDCQkByE0Bqsrgsl.jpg) Yeah, that's his waist he's measuring.

See this lovely half dressed woman? (http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/files/imagecache/news/files/20070111_waist.jpg) That big dent in above her belly button is her waist.

This drawing of different female body types? (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1b/Bodyshapes.svg/525px-Bodyshapes.svg.png) The waists on each are the most narrow part of the torso.

I don't get what you're talking about at all if you are saying we're discussing different things.

[Nava]

I want to have data for "human beings," with no gender separation. If I had wanted gender separation, I would have put it in.

[zweisamkeit]

Why on earth are you getting so defensive here, Nava? If you don't mean to sound defensive and shrill... well, you really are. You put a poll up asking where people think the waist is. People who disagree with you are apparently not measuring "what you want to measure". So basically, we're only allowed to agree with you?

[DiosaBellissima]

I want to have data for "human beings," with no gender separation. If I had wanted gender separation, I would have put it in.

Which is all well and good, but you realize men and women have distinctly different body types, yes? So, you're skewing your data by including both apples and oranges.

[DiosaBellissima]

If this isn't total clear, let me use this example:

Dopers, how often do you get your period?

Answers: open to all

Interpretation of data: Omg, whoa! 50% of Dopers never get their period! Crazy!

So, basically, rather than finding out how many women fall where on the 28 day scale, you're skewing your data by including a lot of pointless information. That is, unless you say: WOMEN, where is your waist? MEN, where is your waist?

[Fuzzy Dunlop]

Why on earth are you getting so defensive here, Nava? If you don't mean to sound defensive and shrill... well, you really are. You put a poll up asking where people think the waist is. People who disagree with you are apparently not measuring "what you want to measure". So basically, we're only allowed to agree with you?

Nava's problem is that DiosaBellissima keeps insisting this should only apply to women and Nava is interested in all people's waists. For instance, a few posts ago DiosaBellissima claimed men would skew the results by having lower waists on average. But Nava isn't interested in where only women's waists are, only DiosaBellissima is. We're 50% of the population so our lower than average waists aren't actually skewing what Nava is trying to get at.

[Fuzzy Dunlop]

If this isn't total clear, let me use this example:

Dopers, how often do you get your period?

Answers: open to all

Interpretation of data: Omg, whoa! 50% of Dopers never get their period! Crazy!


That would be the correct answer to that question. If you excluded men for some reason you would get dramatically skewed results by excluding half the population.

You would say, "Weird!!! All dopers have periods????? That would imply 100% of all dopers are pre-menopausal post-pubescent women even though the question in the poll was open to everyone. I bet someone skewed the data by excluding men old ladies and girls!"

[DiosaBellissima]

Nava's problem is that DiosaBellissima keeps insisting this should only apply to women and Nava is interested in all people's waists. For instance, a few posts ago DiosaBellissima claimed men would skew the results by having lower waists on average. But Nava isn't interested in where only women's waists are, only DiosaBellissima is. We're 50% of the population so our lower than average waists aren't actually skewing what Nava is trying to get at.

Which is fine and I'll bow out of this thread after this post, my point is simply this: there is a legitimate argument to be made that most male waists fall below the belly button, while most female waists fall above. So, what good is done by a pole that doesn't identify which group you fall under?

I suppose I'm just missing the point. I wont thread shit any further.

[Fuzzy Dunlop]

Which is fine and I'll bow out of this thread after this post, my point is simply this: there is a legitimate argument to be made that most male waists fall below the belly button, while most female waists fall above. So, what good is done by a pole that doesn't identify which group you fall under?

I suppose I'm just missing the point. I wont thread shit any further.

I don`t really know what Nava's point is either but you're definitely missing it. I don't really have a vested interest in waist locations but it seemed unfair of zweisamkeit to call Nava defensive and shrill when it was pretty clear you were actually talking about 2 different things and that for whatever reason Nava wants non-gender based data.

[zweisamkeit]

I don`t really know what Nava's point is either but you're definitely missing it. I don't really have a vested interest in waist locations but it seemed unfair of zweisamkeit to call Nava defensive and shrill when it was pretty clear you were actually talking about 2 different things and that for whatever reason Nava wants non-gender based data.

Actually, I'm calling Nava defensive because of a lot of what she's said in the two threads regarding waists.

She started with Hourglass? Belted at the waist. Yes. The waist. No, not under the boobs. The waist is where your navel is.

which sounds a bit snarky if, like me, your waist is above where your navel is. When she starts this thread, she says
Navel/waist relative position
In a MPSIMS thread, I declared that "the waist is at your navel's height" and got promptly told "is not."

I said no such thing. I said The waist is where the narrowest part of you is. :p It's not right under your boobs, but it's usually above where your navel is. That's a low or drop waist.

Note that I agreed that it is not directly under your boobs. But I specified that the waist is the narrowest part of you (torso was not stated but implied) and that for most people with boobs, it will be above your navel, even just by an inch. But I apparently said "is not" in a snotty way. The :p was tongue in cheek.

Then, after she decides to start this thread since I told her that, I reply a bit snarkily because, quite honestly, her tone in that first sentence was snarky as well. But I continue to explain my position and include pictures of natural waist versus "fashion waist". What does she respond with? Do you need a picture? My navel is at my narrowest point! Yours isn't, great. Mine is, great too, ok?

That is defensive. It didn't respond to any part of what I said. Also, if the narrowest part of her torso is at her navel, then it's the same freaking definition that I use, which is "the narrowest part of your torso". She just happens to have a really low waist.

So fine: Nava, sure, I'd like a picture. Because I had insisted for years that my waist was at my navel, too. That's where my pants went and that's where my hips grew (widely!) out of. Then I found out that my natural waist is actually 3-4" higher. It's the narrowest part of my torso by about 4". It just didn't look like it because the difference between my hips to my navel was so much more dramatic (15" instead of 4").

[Manda JO]

There are two possible questions here:

One: What do you, as an individual, define as "the waist"? (we've had threads like that, "what do you define as 'poor?'" or "what do yo mean when you say '___________'")

Two: where is your personal waist? (Which assumes everyone agrees on what "the waist" is, which I don't think is the case)

I think some people are answering the first question and some the second, and that's causing the confusion.

[Nava]

The poll includes both questions, but I didn't want to create two separate threads. It's multiple choice so people can give two answers, one for each question.

So far we've got one definition of waist I hadn't thought of (which was one of the things I wanted, to see what other definitions popped up), and although most of the people who've answered that part have gone for "narrowest," we've got a more-than-significant amount of "smallest perimeter." We've also got several people whose typed-out responses ask "what, you mean they aren't always the same?" And since adding an extra definition requires typing, we also know that this third definition of "waist" came from a man. I personally don't think that "whether people of different genders use different definitions of waist" can be analyzed properly without accounting for other sociological factors, but to account for those we'd need an "old style" poll.

The "where is your waist" part of the question is intended to be answered using the respondent's own definition of waist.

[Nava]

which sounds a bit snarky if, like me, your waist is above where your navel is. When she starts this thread, she says

It was never my intention to offend you; since I did, I apologize.

[Rico]

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Off track. OP asks for closure.

Granted. Although it's a bit of a "waist."

:)

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