NFL Week 15

[Omniscient]

Nothing too elaborate this week since I haven't really been that invested since getting shit canned in 3 of 4 fantasy leagues, but I've taken a few weeks off so I might as well get the thread started for Week 15.

Thursday, Dec. 17
Indianapolis 3 JACKSONVILLE 43
Lots of talk all week long about the Colts benching players this week and down the stretch. I think it's moot at least this week, the Colts will be starting everyone who matters and the only real worry is Reggie Wayne but even if he's at half speed or gets benched early to help him recover the Colts will have enough punch to move the ball. The Jags and Colts tend to play each other close and the point spread reflects that. The Jags are playing for their lives but I have a feeling that the Colts defense will exert itself this week. The Jags haven't exactly shown a ton of mettle when the going gets tough laying some eggs on the road and struggling to be prepared every week, and I suspect that playing on a Thursday will hurt them far more than it hurts the Colts.

The Pick: Colts 21 - Jaguars 10

[Omniscient]

What a catch and throw there. Dallas Clark is amazing for a goofy white dude from Iowa.

[Goblinboy]

Go Colts!

I just want to thank you, Omni, for posting these threads each week. I don't always get a chance to follow along on all the games and your synopsis are a handy summary of what games to look out for each week.

Simpson just ran the ball back for a touchdown! Special teams play hasn't been something Colts' fans have been too excited about, so this was more then a little eye opening. Fun stuff!

Hopefully, the starters will stay in long enough to put away the Jags, but I wouldn't be surprise to see some unfamiliar faces by the end of the game.

[garygnu]

I'm watching on NFL.com; what producer let this Mike Mayock guy wear a striped shirt AND a striped tie? The moire patterns are killing my eyes.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

I wish Dallas Clark played for the Bengals.

[Omniscient]

Hell of a game so far. Let's see if the final 2 minutes match.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

Hell of a game so far. Let's see if the final 2 minutes match.

If David Garrard was named Peyton Manning, the Jags could have won that game in the waning moments!

[Hal Briston]

Definitely one of the better games I've watched this year (in a year filled with really good games). How many lead changes were there? 10? 12?

Never mind -- just looked it up. Yep, ten lead changes. Day-um...

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

Reggie Wayne and Peyton Manning flat out went off. Of course, my only fantasy play last night was Addai, who didn't do squat.

[garygnu]

I wish Dallas Clark played for the Bengals.
I think that's the definition of "All-Star."

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

I think that's the definition of "All-Star."

Ha, yeah. Glad to be in this thread! I have to get out of that Chris Henry thread, I'm getting my head ripped off in there!

That said I am really looking forward to the Chargers v Bengals game, the outcome of which could very well lock in the AFC #2 seed, which would be nice for my team if they can manage it.

[Hal Briston]

That said I am really looking forward to the Chargers v Bengals game, the outcome of which could very well lock in the AFC #2 seed, which would be nice for my team if they can manage it.I had originally picked the Chargers, but I'm putting one of my key theories to the test here: Tragedy wins.

Show me a team who loses a player, a member of the coaching staff, whoever -- and I'll show you a team who wins that week. The test comes in that Henry was already on IR, so I'm not 100% certain he'll count toward my theory. Pretty sure he will, though. Go ahead Cincy -- win one for Chris.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

I had originally picked the Chargers, but I'm putting one of my key theories to the test here: Tragedy wins.

Show me a team who loses a player, a member of the coaching staff, whoever -- and I'll show you a team who wins that week. The test comes in that Henry was already on IR, so I'm not 100% certain he'll count toward my theory. Pretty sure he will, though. Go ahead Cincy -- win one for Chris.

The Bengals certainly have quite a bit to rally around this season. The tragedies: the death of defensive coordinator Mike Zimmer's wife suddenly the Thursday before the Ravens game at M&T Stadium (we won), the tsunami in Samoa (we have a pretty big Samoan contingent on our team, Maulauga, Peko, Vakapuna, Fanene...I know there's at least one more, but I can't think of it), the death of Henry.

There's also some other salient points that work in the Bengals favor this year. The fact that they are a widely mocked franchise accused of perrenial ineptitude (which pisses off and motivates the players), the fact that a large portion of the roster is comprised of second and third chance guys like Cedric Benson, Tank Johnson, Chris Crocker, Roy Williams, even Henry...or guys that are unproven and/or undrafted, like Nate Livings, Kyle Cook, Andre Caldwell, Quan Cosby, etc.

Then there's Hard Knocks. I believe that the Bengals are the first team to ever have a winning record after being the subject of that show. And the show was great and really showed the Bengals in a positive light.

There's a lot for me to like, and I'll reiterate what you said: Win one for Henry!

[garygnu]

The Eagles-49ers game has been pushed back to a 1:15pm start time (4:15pm in Philly). It's not the only game to have been pushed back, either. What makes this important is that it's my team, it makes it no longer an early-morning game for the visiting Best-Coasters, and also puts the 49ers and Raiders on TV at the same time in a long time.

[dalej42]

Hopefully that ass kicking on Monday night woke the Cardinals up. They've got two winnable games against Detroit this week and the Rams next week. Losing to either team would be a disgrace.

I'm hoping that the Cards can get off to a big lead and start resting some players. Not sure if Fitzgerald is going to play or not, but he should be very limited if he plays. I'd like to see Leinart in there for some time as well. Even if he just hands it off to Hightower and Wells, the Cards are going to need Warner 100% for the playoffs.

[Stringer]

We could have a double-header on Monday night if the Bears are unable to make it to Baltimore (http://www.chicagobreakingsports.com/2009/12/bear-force-one-grounded-friday-team-looking-for-window-to-travel-saturday.html).

And regarding the Bengals. Has it ever happened before that a team in the playoff hunt had a player die weeks before the playoffs? It sounds callous, but my second or third thought when I heard the Henry news was that I can't wait to bet on Cincy in the playoffs. This kind of thing galvanizes a team so well.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

We could have a double-header on Monday night if the Bears are unable to make it to Baltimore (http://www.chicagobreakingsports.com/2009/12/bear-force-one-grounded-friday-team-looking-for-window-to-travel-saturday.html).

And regarding the Bengals. Has it ever happened before that a team in the playoff hunt had a player die weeks before the playoffs? It sounds callous, but my second or third thought when I heard the Henry news was that I can't wait to bet on Cincy in the playoffs. This kind of thing galvanizes a team so well.

I don't know if that's ever happened before, but I'd bet that it has at some point. I too, hope that the players play inspired football in the wake of Henry's death.

As an interesting aside, check out this article from Florio about Chad Ochocinco wanting to wear Henry's jersey in Sundays game against the Bolts, the NFL saying no, and now the NFLPA saying they will pay his fine if so: http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2009/12/19/nflpa-says-it-will-pay-ochocincos-fine-if-he-wears-no-15/

NFLPA says it will pay Ochocinco's fine if he wears No. 15
Posted by Mike Florio on December 19, 2009 12:21 PM ET

"Bengals receiver Chad Ochocinco wants to honor Chris Henry on Sunday by wearing his jersey. The NFL has said that Ochocinco won't be permitted to wear Henry's jersey. We've previously said that we support his efforts in this regard, even if it means that he'll be fined by the league.

Now, George Atallah of the NFL Players Association has announced on his Twitter page that the union "will cover any fine levied on [Bengals receiver Chad Ochocinco] . . . and match it with a gift to our Chris Henry memorial fund."

The situation sets up a potential legal battle between the league and the NFLPA, with the union undoubtedly hoping to score P.R. points in advance of a potential 2011 lockout.

NFL spokesman Greg Aiello previously has explained to us in relation to Saints running back Reggie Bush's past intention to wear non-conforming cleats that no other entity may pay the fine imposed on a player for violating the league's uniform rules. We've sent an e-mail to Aiello requesting confirmation that this policy still exists. (We assume it does.)

And if it does, the union could be treading on dangerous ground. Under the labor agreement, fines imposed by the league are collected directly from the player's salary. So the union wouldn't be paying the fine; it would be making a cash payment to Chad Ochocinco.

But since the union is a federally-regulated non-profit entity that must answer not only to the government but also to its members, a direct payment to a player who was fined for engaging in conduct that violates the unambiguous content of league rules might invite scrutiny from one or more federal agencies -- especially if neither NFLPA Executive Director De Smith nor the union's Executive Committee possess the authority to make such payments directly to individual players."

[Hal Briston]

Now, George Atallah of the NFL Players Association has announced on his Twitter page that the union "will cover any fine levied on [Bengals receiver Chad Ochocinco] . . . and match it with a gift to our Chris Henry memorial fund."Any fine? Hmmm...is there an upper-end cap that the league is allowed to impose for this? Wonder if the commish could announce a $100 billion fine, just to make an example of them.

[Ellis Dee]

As I understand it, the CBA has strict guidelines for how much a player can be fined.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

I don't know what the upper limit is, but I've never seen a fine larger than Belichek's for "videogate" and he isn't a player.

[kenobi 65]

I'm getting very tired of a Matt Millen catch-phrase: "That one's on (name)", uttered when a play doesn't go well. "That one's on Brees." "That one's on Williams." I think he's used it at least four times in this game.

[SenorBeef]

If NO wins this one, they will be the Team Of Destiny (tm)

[tnetennba]

Saints finally got the loss they've been practically begging for.

[Oakminster]

Sigh. No perfect season for my Saints. They looked horrible in the first half, and not very good in the second half. Really needed Ellis to help stuff the run, but he wasn't active. Neither was Shockey, and Bush looked like he pulled a hamstring on what otherwise could have been a TD reception. If the Superbowl ends up being Saints-Colts, it's gonna be a shootout....but the Saints need to get some people healthy, and play a hell of a lot better than they did tonight to make it there.

[Gorsnak]

Better to lay an egg in week fifteen than in the playoffs.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

Shit! There was a game yesterday? Man I'm getting old...I can't keep up!

[DSYoungEsq]

I remember when the Saturdays after college football ended there would be two games. I think the NFL is still missing a bet by not having those, too. <sigh of nostalgia for the old days>

[Hal Briston]

Far worse than a Saints loss is the fact that the damn Cowboys getting the win.

[Darth Sensitive]

Pobrecito :)

[SenorBeef]

Josh Cribbs is the greatest special teamer of all time.

[MadTheSwine]

Josh Cribbs is the greatest special teamer of all time.

He gets a LOT of chances

[dalej42]

Cardinals taking care of business. Time to start the Arizona Cardinals march to the Super Bowl thread again!

[MadTheSwine]

Cardinals taking care of business. Time to start the Arizona Cardinals march to the Super Bowl thread again!

I will be right there with ya dale...since I doubt the Rams are gonna make it this year.

[dalej42]

I will be right there with ya dale...since I doubt the Rams are gonna make it this year.

At least Kurt Warner will. :D

[MadTheSwine]

Hold the phone

[tnetennba]

The Ari-Det game isn't on here, but I was looking at Game Day. Is it accurate showing two concurrent 15-yard penalties against the same player, both enforced? What the hell did he do?

[garygnu]

The Ari-Det game isn't on here, but I was looking at Game Day. Is it accurate showing two concurrent 15-yard penalties against the same player, both enforced? What the hell did he do?
He said something not very nice to the head ref, then he did it again.

I knew I had to count on one of the two worst teams in the league to help out my 49ers, who need two Arizona losses to have a chance at the division, but I didn't know Bryan Robinson would help out, too.

[MadTheSwine]

Nice run by Beanie.

[tnetennba]

Speaking of the refs, what will they do in the Packers-Steelers game? How will they know which team to favor?

[MadTheSwine]

Speaking of the refs, what will they do in the Packers-Steelers game? How will they know which team to favor?

Depends on who holds Harrison.

[dalej42]

OK Cards, time to run out the clock and win

[DSYoungEsq]

No can do.

[dalej42]

Cardiac Cardinals! Let's lock up this win

[tnetennba]

I'm not sure what to expect from the Cardinals week after week. They played really well against the Vikings, but lost to the Panthers, barely got past the Lions... which team will show up for the playoffs?

[MadTheSwine]

I'm not sure what to expect from the Cardinals week after week. They played really well against the Vikings, but lost to the Panthers, barely got past the Lions... which team will show up for the playoffs?

It wont be the Steelers.

[dalej42]

Cardinals/Colts in the Super Bowl. Cards get their first Super Bowl win.

[garygnu]

Cardinals/Colts in the Super Bowl. Cards get their first Super Bowl win.
You never stop being delusional, I'll give you that.

[SenorBeef]

I am actually enourmously pissed off about Jerome Harrison's performance today. I have been his #1 pimp in the world for 3 years now, telling anyone who will listen to me how talented he is.. AND APPARENTLY I AM THE ONLY PERSON IN THE WORLD WHO RECOGNIZES THIS because he spent the last 4 years on the bench as we watched Jamal "tip toe into my guard's back for 2 yards" Lewis get 90% of the carries.

What a squandered opportunity - he's been on the roster for four years and has only had double digit carry games 4 times. Every time he touches the ball he does something well with it. Every game he'll come in, he gets 2-5 touches, turns them into 8+ yards per carry, and then gets benched for the rest of the game and then gets deactivated for the next two games.

What the FUCK?

[SenorBeef]

Incidentally, I wonder if any team has scored 41 points while getting 66 yards/0 TDs from the QB. It was an utterly dominant rushing/special teams performance with no help from the passing game.

[tnetennba]

Cardinals/Colts in the Super Bowl. Cards get their first Super Bowl win.

I'll have what he's smoking.

[Hal Briston]

Fricking snowstorm.

The broadcast schedule here (near Philly) was Eagles/Niners at 1:00, GB/PIT and CIN/SD at 4:00. Well woohoo, the two 4:00 games are very important to me in my pool, so I'd love to see them. That way I can ignore the Scumbird game and watch a couple good games in the afternoon.

Whoops, snowstorm! The Scumbirds game goes to 4:00, so sorry, local viewing audience -- the schedule if fuxxored and you get no competing games!

Remind me again why I haven't subscribed to Red Zone Channel?

[Least Original User Name Ever]

I'm getting very tired of a Matt Millen catch-phrase: "That one's on (name)", uttered when a play doesn't go well. "That one's on Brees." "That one's on Williams." I think he's used it at least four times in this game.

The man shouldn't be allowed near a football stadium. I swear, if he is commentating during the draft, I'm writing the nastiest of letters to anyone that matters one bit: to my Senators, my Congressmen, the Ford family, the TV studio. I don't care. I will officially have flipped my shit and will bitch to anything, animal, vegetable, or mineral, about how Matt Millen is unfit for football.

[Least Original User Name Ever]

The Ari-Det game isn't on here, but I was looking at Game Day. Is it accurate showing two concurrent 15-yard penalties against the same player, both enforced? What the hell did he do?

There were also 4 false-start penalties on the Lions in the first 13 minutes of the game. 2 of them were on back-to-back plays on two different offensive linemen.

Please shoot me.

[garygnu]

Somebody tell me again why I watch football...

[tnetennba]

Note to Chargers: I think upon beating the Bengals this week, the appropriate attitude would have been somber dutifulness.

[tnetennba]

I was about to say the refs had decided to favor the refs with a lame holding call, when they come back with an even lamer call against the Packers that negates a game clinching INT.

[tnetennba]

There should be a penalty for lobbying the refs. I hate it when players do that.

[tnetennba]

I can't wait for the statheads to explain how the onside kick was actually an excellent idea.

[MadTheSwine]

I can't wait for the statheads to explain how the onside kick was actually an excellent idea.

No shit...dumb fucking move.Stealers stole another one.

[Jman]

No shit...dumb fucking move.Stealers stole another one.

Another one? It's about time the Steelers stole one at all. They've been busy giving the game away the last half of the season. It was a ridiculously stupid move. Ben bailed out the defense...seems that's about the only time we win any more, as the defense can't hold a 4th quarter lead without Polamalu.

[tnetennba]

Based on other sports boards, coaches might make decisions like that so a bunch of meathead fans thinks it proves they have balls.

[Least Original User Name Ever]

Thank you, Tampa Bay Buccaneers for winning. We're one step closer to winning the Suh Sweepstakes.

[kenobi 65]

Fricking snowstorm.

No kidding. The Packer/Steeler game was going to be on here in Chicago...that is, until the snowstorm caused the Bear/Raven game to get pushed back.

Ah, well, it meant I didn't have to watch the Pack lose on the final play of the game. :p

[borschevsky]

I can't wait for the statheads to explain how the onside kick was actually an excellent idea.Already done (http://www.advancednflstats.com/2009/12/should-steelers-have-kicked-onside.html). I have to say I'm surprised at the 60% success rate for surprise onside kicks. I wouldn't have thought it was nearly that high.

Tomlin's explanation after the game was interesting too. If people thought Belichik threw his defense under the bus, I don't know what they'll call this. Tomlin explicitly said that they did the onside so that if they lost it, it wouldn't take as long for the Packers to score, and they'd have time to come back. And, to be fair, that's exactly what happened.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

Curse you Bengals, for being just good enough to keep my interest level up, but not good enough to beat the better teams in the NFL, not because other teams kick your asses, but because you kick your own asses with stupid penalties, bad clock management, bad turnovers and various other miscues.

You can beat anybody, but yet you choose to beat yourselves, which in this fan's view, is the worst way to lose games.

Please fix the highly correctible errors so we can make the playoffs and have a shot at winning at least one game while we are there.

[MadTheSwine]

Tomlin's explanation after the game was interesting too. If people thought Belichik threw his defense under the bus, I don't know what they'll call this. Tomlin explicitly said that they did the onside so that if they lost it, it wouldn't take as long for the Packers to score, and they'd have time to come back. And, to be fair, that's exactly what happened.

I wish I had the ability to explain something exactly how it happened after I did it.

[Hamlet]

Ah, well, it meant I didn't have to watch the Pack lose on the final play of the game. :pI couldn't watch any part of the game EXCEPT for the last couple drives, and boy was that exciting. And maddening. But, in the end, if we beat Seattle next week, we'll be in good shape for the playoffs, so it wasn't that horrible of a loss.

We all knew that beyond Woodson and Collins, our secondary needed someone to step up, but Bush sucks (we knew that too) and Josh Bell is clearly not ready for NFL football (when you have 3 deep safeties in the end zone, you need to be in FRONT of your man), so we're still weak there. And we knew we can't really trust Mason Cosby anymore (and I liked him) or his holders. No real surprises.

It's tough losing 3 CB's, including one Pro Bowler, for the season, and it's tough having to start a street free agent in the dime package. But such are the vagaries of injuries in the NFL. I'm heartened by the fact that they sacked Ben 5 times (although it should have been 7 or 8), so against not so tough to bring down QB's they should fare better.

Still, a tough game to lose, especially in the midst of a playoff hunt. But it will all be forgotten with a win against the Seahawks next week and a hopefully resting their starters Cardinals in Week 17. GO PACK!

[DSYoungEsq]

Actually, it was the worst possible kind of loss. Had the Packers won, they would have had a conceivable chance of winning the division, as the Vikings suddenly seem to be in implosion mode. A couple more games of Favre fighting with the head coach would result in 11-5, and a 12-4 Packers team would have blown right by.

Now, the Packers cannot get by the Vikings, no matter how badly the Vikings implode. :mad:

Losing this game shows why the Packers are going to win at most one playoff game. But then, we knew that going in to the game, so it's no shock. Just disappointing. :(

[Hamlet]

Actually, it was the worst possible kind of loss. Had the Packers won, they would have had a conceivable chance of winning the division, as the Vikings suddenly seem to be in implosion mode. A couple more games of Favre fighting with the head coach would result in 11-5, and a 12-4 Packers team would have blown right by.

Now, the Packers cannot get by the Vikings, no matter how badly the Vikings implode. :mad:I seriously never thought the Pack would catch the Vikings. Even if Favre does his Favre thang, they still have the pathetic Bears on their schedule, they still have All Day, they still have a pretty good defense, and they still have their lawsuit to keep their cheaters playing this season.

Losing this game shows why the Packers are going to win at most one playoff game. But then, we knew that going in to the game, so it's no shock. Just disappointing. :(The Packers have flaws, yes, but the O Line is better in pass protection (seeing as how McCarthy has once again given up the run), they have the potential defensive rookie of the year and potential defensive player of the year, and they lost on a last second play by the Super Bowl champs who really NEEDED to win at their own stadium. I think it's a bit too early to say they'll only win one playoff game (especially if they get the Vikings in the divisional round). Hell, it's too early to even say they'll win that one.

One game at a time.

[Hentor the Barbarian]

Ah, Hamlet, you're a Packers fan! No wonder I haven't seen you in the Steelers thread today. Since I know you were watching, did you enjoy the first Packers touchdown? Specifically, did you enjoy the iso on James Harrison, and the arm around the neck holding that allowed Rodgers to avoid being sacked?

That's the exact holding on James Harrison that I've been talking about. And the exact failure to call it holding that I've been talking about.

At least now I know for sure that you've seen it when you do come around again to talk shit.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

Clearly there's a league-wide conspiracy against Harrison. I mean, the refs call those same types of holds against all the other elite pass rushers in the NFL, right?

[Hentor the Barbarian]

Clearly there's a league-wide conspiracy against Harrison. I mean, the refs call those same types of holds against all the other elite pass rushers in the NFL, right?If they are not, I hope those elite pass rushers are making their case to the league as well. There should not be types of holds that are okay.

Of course, I haven't heard any announcers describing other elite pass rushers as the one getting held most often in the league, and I see the very play that Fox chose to return to in isolation occurring with regularity against Harrison.

Do you deny that Harrison was held on that play, in the very manner I've been describing all season long? Do you deny that the holding allowed a touchdown pass?

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

If they are not, I hope those elite pass rushers are making their case to the league as well. There should not be types of holds that are okay.

Of course, I haven't heard any announcers describing other elite pass rushers as the one getting held most often in the league, and I see the very play that Fox chose to return to in isolation occurring with regularity against Harrison.

Do you deny that Harrison was held on that play, in the very manner I've been describing all season long? Do you deny that the holding allowed a touchdown pass?

I didn't see the play in question. I was too busy watching/mourning the Bengals' preventable loss to the Bolts. I'm just joking anyway. This Harrison holding thing seems to have a life of its own.

[Hamlet]

Ah, Hamlet, you're a Packers fan! No wonder I haven't seen you in the Steelers thread today. Since I know you were watching, did you enjoy the first Packers touchdown? Specifically, did you enjoy the iso on James Harrison, and the arm around the neck holding that allowed Rodgers to avoid being sacked?If you actually read what I posted in this very thread, you'd see I missed all but the last two drives of the game. Nice reading comprehension.

And I see you still haven't gotten the point about the Harrison-Holding meme. Which is surprising to absolutely no one who reads your posts.

[Hentor the Barbarian]

If you actually read what I posted in this very thread, you'd see I missed all but the last two drives of the game. Nice reading comprehension.Awww. And it was right there, pretty as a picture, with commentary by Aikman and Buck, too. Dammit.

[MovieMogul]

Note to Chargers: I think upon beating the Bengals this week, the appropriate attitude would have been somber dutifulness.:(






















Whoop! Go Chargers! :)

[Hal Briston]

Note to Chargers: I think upon beating the Bengals this week, the appropriate attitude would have been somber dutifulness....and gratefulness that the check to the refs cleared.

[DSYoungEsq]

Re: Harrison Holding meme: Holding happens on every play of every NFL game. The strict definition is never called, just as the strict definition of Law XII in soccer is never adhered to in professional games. It's only certain egregious examples of holding that are usually flagged.

If Harrison is being "held" on every play (or, to be charitable, regularly on certain types of plays), then the officials MUST be seeing it (they cannot always be blind to it, or missing it). If they are seeing it and not whistling it, then the logical conclusion is that it is not considered "holding" by the league, or at least by the league's officials. This may be why the Steelers have reportedly discussed the issue with the league: to try and get the league to accept that the "holding" in question is truly penalizable.

Are there any stats to show if the number of holding calls for teams playing the Steelers is up this year over the last few years?

[SenorBeef]

It sort of balances out, because the Steelers' O-line gets away with way more holding than average IMO.

[tnetennba]

One thing that's kind of stupid is that penalties can't be reviewed. They are often both bad calls and game-changing. There's no reason the coaches shouldn't be allowed to ask the refs to look again. Of course the non-calls can also be bad and game-changing. See Pearson, Drew; Off, Pushed; and Mary, Hail.

[SenorBeef]

Looking for irrefutable evidence of a judgement call would lead to a lot of ambiguity and fan anger. Sometimes you would get legit overturns "oh, turns out that defender didn't touch the receiver after all", but most of the time you'd end up in a situation where you'd say "it's kind of weak, but I can see calling that penalty there, no irrefutable evidence otherwise..."

[tnetennba]

I disagree with the irrefutable evidence bit anyway. Look at it closer and make the best call. Or just get rid of the refs and let the players sort it out. As it is now, the refs decide too many games.

[DSYoungEsq]

How silly. Next you'll be saying that no penalties should ever be called.

Do you even know the history behind how the "referee" ended up on the field in football? You might look that up before opining on the subject.

You simply cannot expect every play to be called 100% accurately when the wording of the rules includes language that can be interpreted. One man's "intentional" is another man's "accidental" based upon exactly the same view of exactly the same behavior. If you review penalties, then all you do is substitute the judgment of the person doing the review for the person who saw the play in context. Either way, the determination will have an effect upon the result of the game. And meanwhile, while every play is reviewed down to the minutest detail to see what really happened, the players all stand around between each play, and the fans do what, exactly, while the game takes six hours to play? :rolleyes:

[tnetennba]

Yes, yes, it's all subjective, etc., etc. Game after game, though, it's hard to believe the refs are even doing the best they can. Not when they call a PI on one play where the defender didn't even make contact, then watch a player get impregnated a few plays later without throwing a flag. Not when they throw eighteen flags on a third and long, then get together for a long chat to decide what the flag is for, as if they decided one team needed help first and are casting about for explanations later. Not when they review a play with irrefutable evidence that they made a bad call, and let it stand. And the NFL can't be serious about fixing the problem when they introduce instant replay but exempt the single biggest problem, which is not ball placement or determining possession or fumbles, but the inconsistent leveraging of penalties. So either get the penalties right, or ease back on them until you can get it right.

[notfrommensa]

Wow, was that a pathetic half of football for the Redskins. They had absolutely no clue. I've been a Redskin fan for all my life. I think Billy Kilmer, John Riggins, and Charley Taylor could have done better on offense. And they are each at least 60.

[ZebraShaSha]

Wow, was that a pathetic half of football for the Redskins. They had absolutely no clue. I've been a Redskin fan for all my life. I think Billy Kilmer, John Riggins, and Charley Taylor could have done better on offense. And they are each at least 60.

That "field goal" attempt was the greatest worst play I think I have ever seen.

[ShadowFacts]

Wow, the Giants just got away with one big time on that scrum. Brandon Jacobs should have gotten a personal foul flag and ejected from the game, IMO. He blatantly throws a punch for no reason. Instead, Haynesworth gets the foul, Giants keep the ball, then score in two plays. Terrible officiating.

Not that the Redskins had a chance at all in this game, I just hate it when a blatant asshole move like that not only gets missed, but ends up benefiting the team. :rolleyes:

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

And meanwhile, while every play is reviewed down to the minutest detail to see what really happened, the players all stand around between each play, and the fans do what, exactly, while the game takes six hours to play? :rolleyes:

Drink extra beers?

[DSYoungEsq]

Drink extra beers?

How, dear sir, can a beer ever be "extra"? :D

[DSYoungEsq]

Yes, yes, it's all subjective, etc., etc. Game after game, though, it's hard to believe the refs are even doing the best they can. Not when they call a PI on one play where the defender didn't even make contact, then watch a player get impregnated a few plays later without throwing a flag. Not when they throw eighteen flags on a third and long, then get together for a long chat to decide what the flag is for, as if they decided one team needed help first and are casting about for explanations later. Not when they review a play with irrefutable evidence that they made a bad call, and let it stand. And the NFL can't be serious about fixing the problem when they introduce instant replay but exempt the single biggest problem, which is not ball placement or determining possession or fumbles, but the inconsistent leveraging of penalties. So either get the penalties right, or ease back on them until you can get it right.

Your rant is childish and silly. To assume that the officials aren't doing the best they can is nothing more than sheer stubborn refusal to accept facts. It also shows that you've never officiated a sporting event at anything like a high level (I have, I've officiated professional soccer, so I'm aware of what I am discussing). You are doing nothing but whining about something for no other reason than the fact that at certain times, you disagree with the calls being made when they have an impact upon the team(s) you root for; you might as well join the whiny Steeler fans who insist that Harrison is held on every play.

In matter of fact, there are generally two reasons why officials can make mistakes. First of all, the game happens only at one speed for them: now speed. They don't get to make their mind up based upon luxurious review of multiple angles; they get one shot at it happening fast. It is no wonder that, under the circumstances, slow motion replay with high definition cameras can spot things they didn't at the time. But unless you want to replay every freakin' play of the game, from every angle, involving every possible player who had an impact upon the result of the play, there's not much you can do about that.

Second of all, despite your bland confidence about spotting fouls (or the lack thereof) with the assistance of replay, since many of the fouls in the book involve some sort of "judgment" on the part of the officials, you will NEVER get agreement on what should be called, even when all parties are offered the opportunity to see the same slo-mo replays. I am quite certain that, even if we had hi-def cameras all over the Immaculate Reception, Raiders fans would be convinced they were jobbed, and Steelers fans would be convinced that the call was exactly correct as made on the field. So no amount of review will EVER eliminate your unhappiness with "bad" calls, because you will always see things based upon your biases.

I remember a great example of this at a seminar I was attending back in my attorney days. Right near the beginning of the seminar, someone came in and stole a purse that was sitting on the dais right near the end of the speakers' table. He then ran out of the room. Someone screamed about the purse being snatched, everyone looked to see what was going on. Despite most of the room having a clear view of the guy as he left, there was absolutely NO concensus on even the most basic details of the event (color of hair, skin, eyes, clothes, purse, etc.). It was, of course, a staged event, designed to show us attorneys that witnesses are not the best evidence providers, because what we see is subjective. This fact is amply demonstrated in every sports bar every Sunday of NFL season.

As for not calling the fouls, that would simply lead to chaos, as I'm sure you really are aware. At least, I hope you are.

[Hentor the Barbarian]

Re: Harrison Holding meme: Holding happens on every play of every NFL game. The strict definition is never called, just as the strict definition of Law XII in soccer is never adhered to in professional games. It's only certain egregious examples of holding that are usually flagged.Right, and this particular hold is egregious. It was plainly visible in the three-quarter shot, and Fox also chose to come back with an isolation replay of it after the commercial break. It's troubling because of its frequency against James Harrison.If Harrison is being "held" on every play (or, to be charitable, regularly on certain types of plays),Note that I am not claiming that James Harrison is held on every play....then the officials MUST be seeing it (they cannot always be blind to it, or missing it).I agree. They must be seeing it.If they are seeing it and not whistling it, then the logical conclusion is that it is not considered "holding" by the league, or at least by the league's officials.James Harrison stated that when the officials visited the Steelers training camp, he specifically asked about this type of hold. He claims he was told that it was illegal and that it should be called. He also claims that he has had officials tell him in-game that they would have called it if he had been close to the QB. Of course, the illogic of that is obvious.

Is there any way that you can imagine that restraining a rusher, whose entire body is past you, solely by your arm wrapped around his neck, should not be considered holding? I have said, in the past, that offensive linemen may be particularly susceptible to doing this against Harrison because they tend to be quite a bit taller than he is.

Didn't anyone here watch the Packers at the Steelers on Sunday? What did you think of the replay? Wasn't it very clear to you? Should that be called holding? If it regularly happens to Harrison and is not called, don't you think he has valid concern?This may be why the Steelers have reportedly discussed the issue with the league: to try and get the league to accept that the "holding" in question is truly penalizable.Perhaps. I have heard that they routinely send a video package to league offices. Sort of a highlight reel, if you will, of non-called holding against James Harrison.Are there any stats to show if the number of holding calls for teams playing the Steelers is up this year over the last few years?Shouldn't the stat be that holding calls for Steelers' opponents are down? Particularly, the stats for offensive tackles playing against the Steelers?

[Quercus]

So, speaking of holding, was I the only one who watched the first quarter last night and wondered whether the NFL had legalized holding for the whole league, just Monday night games, or just the Giants?

[Sinaijon]

Is there any way that you can imagine that restraining a rusher, whose entire body is past you, solely by your arm wrapped around his neck, should not be considered holding?

Didn't see the play in question, and probably never will. But the thing with holding is how the hands got there, not just the fact that they are.

For example, I can picture very easily how it wouldn't be a hold. With a typical rip move, you punch your outside arm inside the block and rip it up, and push your hips through the inside of the blocker. The end result is your are past the blocker's inside hip with his arms extend out across your head/neck. But at that point, it isn't a hold if the lineman works to get his hands back inside the body.

Same concept when a defender turns his back on the blocker. It's not a block in the back because the defender initiated it.

It seems to me, that if you seem to think there is piles and piles of video evidence of holding, and the refs _still_ aren't calling it, that maybe you don't understand exactly the rules about holding or that maybe James Harrison actively tries to draw holding penalties by play acting and the refs see right through it, kinda like those wimpy punters who fall down whenever anybody gets within 5 yards of them.

[ShadowFacts]

Didn't anyone here watch the Packers at the Steelers on Sunday? What did you think of the replay? Wasn't it very clear to you?

Yep, I watched it. It sure looked like holding to me on that play. The hold kept Harrison away from Rodgers just long enough for him to get off the deep ball to Jennings. IMO, there should have been a flag on that play.

That said, I think the whole "Harrison is held more than others" theory is homerism, pure and simple. (I saw at least two other holds on Sunday that I thought should have been flagged, neither of them within 500 miles of James Harrison. Shit happens.)

[Ellis Dee]

If it regularly happens to Harrison and is not called, don't you think he has valid concern?Yes, of course. That's a huge "if", though, and nobody has ever presented any kind of compelling case that he is held like in Sunday's highight on a regular basis. I agree with Shadowfacts that it's nothing more than pure homerism on the part of Steelers fans.

[Hentor the Barbarian]

Yes, of course. That's a huge "if", though, and nobody has ever presented any kind of compelling case that he is held like in Sunday's highight on a regular basis. I agree with Shadowfacts that it's nothing more than pure homerism on the part of Steelers fans.I know that I've pointed this out before, but Dan Dierdorf stated his opinion that Harrison is held more than any other defender in the league. Opinion varies as to Dierdorf's opinion, but clearly he is neither a Steeler homer or fan. He is also one who would know what holding by an offensive lineman is.

[Hentor the Barbarian]

Didn't see the play in question, and probably never will. But the thing with holding is how the hands got there, not just the fact that they are.What I'm talking about arises because Harrison is very quick to get around the OT, whose last option is to leave his outside arm around Harrison's neck and restrain him from behind that way.

It's certainly possible that this happens a lot to other pass rushers in games I'm not watching. All I can say is that it happens routinely to Harrison, is not often called, has a big impact on games, and has been enough of an ongoing concern that Harrison, the league and others (mostly biased fans, to be sure) have made an issue of it.

[DSYoungEsq]

Again, while I'm not privvy to a bevvy of Harrison plays (though the Steelers do have a large fan base here in the Carolinas), I can only say that, if you think something illegal is happening regularly, but it's not being called, there should be a re-evaluation of your assumptions about the situation. After all, here are your two possible conclusions:

1) The league knows about it, and lets it happen.

2) The leauge knows about it, and knows it's not really holding.

Of the two, which do you consider the more likely scenario? <shrug>

[DSYoungEsq]

Here, by the way, is an article from last year (http://blogs.usatoday.com/gameon/2008/10/is-nfl-looking.html), asking if the league in general was simply limiting enforcement of the offensive holding call to cases where the hold had a material impact on the play. So it may be that Harrison is being held regularly, but that the league has decided that holding is only going to be called if/when it is deemed to have had a material effect upon the play. In which case, the "hold" the other night might be something one can complain about on the basis that what they missed was not the "hold", but the apparent effect it had on the play.

Or, it could be that they've redefined the foul in some other way to limit its application. As I've mentioned elsewhere, there is holding on every play in the NFL. If it was called every time it happened, the game would take forever.

[Hamlet]

You want holding, watch the last play of the Steeler Packers game where Hartwig grabs himself a big ole handful of Johnny Jolly's jersey, delaying him from getting in Rothlisberger's face.

The video. The holding starts at about 15 and gets worse for a few seconds (http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2009122006/2009/REG15/packers@steelers#tab:watch).

Clearly holding. Whether or not it was enough to stop Jolly from pressuring Ben is certainly debatable, but, then again, you don't see a whole lot of Packer fans here bitching about it. I'm beginning to think that Jolly gets held on every single play, but the NFL won't do anything about the clearly biased refs not calling it. :)

[Hentor the Barbarian]

You want holding, watch the last play of the Steeler Packers game where Hartwig grabs himself a big ole handful of Johnny Jolly's jersey, delaying him from getting in Rothlisberger's face.

The video. The holding starts at about 15 and gets worse for a few seconds (http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2009122006/2009/REG15/packers@steelers#tab:watch).

Clearly holding. Whether or not it was enough to stop Jolly from pressuring Ben is certainly debatable, but, then again, you don't see a whole lot of Packer fans here bitching about it. I'm beginning to think that Jolly gets held on every single play, but the NFL won't do anything about the clearly biased refs not calling it. :)At about 15 whats? At 15 seconds into that video, there's no way that's holding by Hartwig. Did you mean someone else?

That video does have the three-quarter shot of the holding of Harrison that I'm talking about. It's the second play, starting around 30 seconds in.

[Hamlet]

At about 15 whats? At 15 seconds into that video, there's no way that's holding by Hartwig. Did you mean someone else?Weird. That's the entire video (you can find the last play of the game on that video though at 4:12), not the one I had seen there. The one I was talking about was a video of just the last play of the game.

Go to the Analyze tab above the video, click it. Then, right below that, click on the Play by Play. Scroll down to the last play and click on the watch highlight, and you'll see the last play. At 15 sec., you can watch the center, Hartwig, grab himself a piece of Jolly's jersey, hold onto it while Jolly crosses over, and continue to hold it, turning Jolly to the side and not allowing him at Ben.

[Hentor the Barbarian]

Weird. That's the entire video (you can find the last play of the game on that video though at 4:12), not the one I had seen there. The one I was talking about was a video of just the last play of the game.

Go to the Analyze tab above the video, click it. Then, right below that, click on the Play by Play. Scroll down to the last play and click on the watch highlight, and you'll see the last play. At 15 sec., you can watch the center, Hartwig, grab himself a piece of Jolly's jersey, hold onto it while Jolly crosses over, and continue to hold it, turning Jolly to the side and not allowing him at Ben.Uh, if that's your best counter example, you're not doing well. Jolly turned sideways because he had to get between Hartwig and Trai Essex, the right guard who had nobody else to block.

For all the shit you've given me all season about the arm around the neck holding of Harrison, to have it featured on the Fox broadcast on a play that allowed the Packers to score, I'd have hoped you'd have something more substantial to say.

[Hamlet]

Uh, if that's your best counter example, you're not doing well. Jolly turned sideways because he had to get between Hartwig and Trai Essex, the right guard who had nobody else to block.I'll give your Steeler colored glassed opinion what it's worth.
For all the shit you've given me all season about the arm around the neck holding of Harrison, to have it featured on the Fox broadcast on a play that allowed the Packers to score, I'd have hoped you'd have something more substantial to say.And you STILL don't get the whole Harrison/Holding thing. Color me shocked.

[Hentor the Barbarian]

I'll give your Steeler colored glassed opinion what it's worth.That's fine. If you want to assume that Trai Essex is just going to stand there and do nothing instead of helping Hartwig block, that would be consistent with my impression of your football acumen.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

Looks like the Steelers signed Joey Galloway. Interesting. Where does he fit on game days for them? How does he get ahead of Ward, Holmes and Wallace at this point? Is someone hurt?

[Hentor the Barbarian]

Looks like the Steelers signed Joey Galloway. Interesting. Where does he fit on game days for them? How does he get ahead of Ward, Holmes and Wallace at this point? Is someone hurt?Looks like he's been brought in to replace Sweed who is out with a non-football related injury.

I have no idea what that might be. I'd guess maybe his pride is hurt, or perhaps it's been discovered that he is congenitally unable to catch footballs.

[Hamlet]

That's fine. If you want to assume that Trai Essex is just going to stand there and do nothing instead of helping Hartwig block, that would be consistent with my impression of your football acumen.Funny how I didn't even come close to saying anything like that. I'll add building strawmen to the list of Steeler fan attributes.

If you watch it, it's pretty clear Harwig has a handful of Jolly's jersey when they're at about the 22 yard line, and, if you pause it at 16/17 sec., you can see Hartwig's white gloved hand covering up part of Jolly's number because he still was holding him by the jersey.

But it's all kinda beside the point, which, once again, has eluded you.

[Really Not All That Bright]

Looks like the Steelers signed Joey Galloway. Interesting. Where does he fit on game days for them? How does he get ahead of Ward, Holmes and Wallace at this point? Is someone hurt?
Trying to fit in with Federal diversity guidelines, I guess. "You need more old people!"

[garygnu]

Moving to a different topic...

I've noticed in the last few years that Giants' coach Tom Coughlin's facial expression is always like he can't believe what's happening in front of him. Winning or losing, it's always a mix of incredulous and confused.
Last night I saw a similar expression on the Redskins' Jim Zorn. It was on display even more so two weeks ago against the Saints, but that was understandable given the way the game played out.

[Really Not All That Bright]

Huh. Coughlin's usual expression is that of a severely constipated man. Zorn's usual expression is the same as Emo Cat's (http://dearauthor.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/128371513645948735EmoCatNeedsLo.jpg).

[HongKongFooey]

Zorn's usual expression is the same as Emo Cat's (http://dearauthor.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/128371513645948735EmoCatNeedsLo.jpg).Holy fuck that made me laugh. Hahaha.

[Really Not All That Bright]

Huh. Coughlin's usual expression is that of a severely constipated man. Zorn's usual expression is the same as Emo Cat's (http://dearauthor.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/128371513645948735EmoCatNeedsLo.jpg).
Holy fuck that made me laugh. Hahaha.
I rest (http://thechinstrap.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/mad-tom-coughlin1.jpg) my case. (http://nothingfancy1.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/zorn.jpg)

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

I rest (http://thechinstrap.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/mad-tom-coughlin1.jpg) my case. (http://nothingfancy1.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/zorn.jpg)

I don't know. Zorn looks like he wants to lead a "hip-hip-hooray" chant or something.