No Dungeons and Dragons in prison

[Bricker]

In Singer v. Raemisch, the Seventh Circuit this month upheld a prison regulation forbidding inmates from playing Dungeons and Dragons, apparently because the game would encourage prisoners to escape.

I'm not sure I follow that reasoning. Is there something about Dungeons and Dragons that reasonable prison officials could believe would lead to increased security risks?

ETA: also mentioned as a rationale was the idea that D&D could foster gang activity because the game emulates gang strcuture. One player, the Dungeon Master, gives absolute guidance and direction to subordinate players, exactly as a gang boss gives direction to his subordinates.

[Lobohan]

In Singer v. Raemisch, the Seventh Circuit this month upheld a prison regulation forbidding inmates from playing Dungeons and Dragons, apparently because the game would encourage prisoners to escape.

I'm not sure I follow that reasoning. Is there something about Dungeons and Dragons that reasonable prison officials could believe would lead to increased security risks?I've played D&D since I was a teenager and I feel confident that no prison could hold me. :D

Honestly though, it's moronic. D&D or more generally any pencil and paper roleplaying game is a perfect vehicle to pour out an inmate's excess energy. Prisons should be promoting Pencil and Paper RPGs.

[Vinyl Turnip]

A 20-sided die has a lot of sharp corners.

[kidchameleon]

Well, once they find out about all those Dwarven abilities, they'd try to get all the people under 4 feet tall to help them tunnel out. ;)

[kidchameleon]

Though I should note that when I was last at the HQ for Catalyst Game Labs, license holders for Shadow Run, we all felt bad for the guy in prison who wrote asking for a donation of gaming materials. However it seemed to be somewhat counter productive to entertain the idea of sending him a game where the player characters tend to be criminals (though often of a noble sort).

[Simplicio]

They should be required to play lawful-good characters as part of their rebilitation.

I certainly don't see any harm in allowing prisoners to play D&D. If a game became a focus for some sort of prison gang then closing down that game would seem in order. But I don't think it would be any more likely to become such a focus as opposed to any other semi-structured social activity.

That said, how often are prison policies challenged in the courts? What grounds do you challenge them on? Certainly being banned from playing D&D isn't cruel and unusual punishment.

One player, the Dungeon Master, gives absolute guidance and direction to subordinate players, exactly as a gang boss gives direction to his subordinates.

I've admittedly never been in a gang, but I think I'd replace "exactly" in this sentence with "pretty much in no way similar to"

[Oakminster]

ETA: also mentioned as a rationale was the idea that D&D could foster gang activity because the game emulates gang strcuture. One player, the Dungeon Master, gives absolute guidance and direction to subordinate players, exactly as a gang boss gives direction to his subordinates.

This is just silly. The game does not work that way. The DM is not the player's boss, he's more of a referee/antagonist. He describes the setting, controls and/or creates the storyline, portrays all non-player characters, makes combat rolls for the monsters, and adjudicates the results of player actions under the rules.

[Mr. Excellent]

In Singer v. Raemisch, the Seventh Circuit this month upheld a prison regulation forbidding inmates from playing Dungeons and Dragons, apparently because the game would encourage prisoners to escape.

I'm not sure I follow that reasoning. Is there something about Dungeons and Dragons that reasonable prison officials could believe would lead to increased security risks?

ETA: also mentioned as a rationale was the idea that D&D could foster gang activity because the game emulates gang strcuture. One player, the Dungeon Master, gives absolute guidance and direction to subordinate players, exactly as a gang boss gives direction to his subordinates.

Yah, it's hard to follow - not least because DMs (good ones, anyway) really *don't* give "absolutely guidance and direction" to the other players. DMs don't give orders, other than purely mechanical instruction - "okay, roll to see if cast magic missile worked ..."

I could sort of see an argument that *any* activity which fosters social interaction between prisoners not mediated by prison staff could foster gang activity - but what of other board games? Sports? Prayer groups? In-prison employment? Good grief, I suspect there are common jobs in prison in which prisoner trustees really *will* give binding instructions to subordinate prisoners - "hey, you didn't clean this/assemble this/X properly - fix it!"

Courts have traditionally given a great deal of deference to prisons making decisions about security and correctional needs of the facility, and that's appropriate. But that shouldn't be *unquestioning* deference.

[Mr. Excellent]

This is just silly. The game does not work that way. The DM is not the player's boss, he's more of a referee/antagonist. He describes the setting, controls and/or creates the storyline, portrays all non-player characters, makes combat rolls for the monsters, and adjudicates the results of player actions under the rules.

As he often does, Oakminster makes the point more succinctly, and persuasively, than I could. :)

[Agent Foxtrot]

The only issue I see is prisoners could potentially cross the line between in-character and out-of-character, leading to fights caused by some in-character slight. I think the benefits of socialization and problem-solving far outweigh those risks, though.

If prisoners have the desire and means to escape, they don't need D&D as a catalyst.

[Vinyl Turnip]

Could it just stem from a misunderstanding? The prisoners are already in a dungeon of sorts; perhaps the objection was only to the introduction of dragons.

[Blalron]

In Singer v. Raemisch, the Seventh Circuit this month upheld a prison regulation forbidding inmates from playing Dungeons and Dragons, apparently because the game would encourage prisoners to escape.

I'm not sure I follow that reasoning. Is there something about Dungeons and Dragons that reasonable prison officials could believe would lead to increased security risks?

No. Nothing about the game of D&D would give a person any real life guidance about how to escape from prison. A game scenario would be something like this:

Player 1: I try to escape from prison!
(Dungeon Master rolls dice)
DM: You successfully escape!

ETA: also mentioned as a rationale was the idea that D&D could foster gang activity because the game emulates gang strcuture. One player, the Dungeon Master, gives absolute guidance and direction to subordinate players, exactly as a gang boss gives direction to his subordinates.

The Dungeon Master creates the setting of the game, but he's not supposed to direct players how they act. Whether a player succeeds at a particular action depends upon his character's statistics and the roll of the dice.

[muldoonthief]

The only issue I see is prisoners could potentially cross the line between in-character and out-of-character, leading to fights caused by some in-character slight. I think the benefits of socialization and problem-solving far outweigh those risks, though.

If prisoners have the desire and means to escape, they don't need D&D as a catalyst.

"Stop digging - there's a guard coming!"

"Nah it's OK - I've maxed out my Silent Tunnelling attribute, and I've got a +3 modifier on my Evasion rolls!"

[Kobal2]

I'm not sure I follow that reasoning. Is there something about Dungeons and Dragons that reasonable prison officials could believe would lead to increased security risks?

Well, on paper it gives any convict unlimited access to medieval weaponry and armor, possibly enchanted to boot. Vorpal mithril shivs present a real security concern. Jack Chick also warned us direly about the hobby's potential to unlock magical powers in players.

OK, serious answer : the only way I could see roleplaying as presenting a security risk would be if the DM organizes a "dungeon crawl" using the prison's floorplan, monsters that would have *exactly* the guards' routines, etc...
In that sense, it could be construed as a planning tool. But no more than allowing convicts to doodle in the sand. Or talk.

[Oakminster]

Overheard on shower day:

I'ma cast Polymorph Self and change into something that ain't got no butt hole....

[The Second Stone]

This thread would be perfect for trolls.

[GoodOmens]

A 20-sided die has a lot of sharp corners.

No it doesn't, you silly. A 20-sider is almost a sphere. Now, the 4-sided dice...they're like godddamn caltrops!

[Projammer]

D&D promotes original thinking, and rewards finding creative solutions to problems. In this case, how to get out of jail.

And do you have any idea just how many spells there are that can be used to escape confinement?

Start with the basic knock spell to open the doors and go from there. Dozens of levitation and flight incantations. Stone to mud. Summon Earth elemental.

Then you add in all the glamours, charms, and illusions.

The prisons would be empty in mere days.

I imagine Dopers could fill pages of this thread with ideas.

[Gagundathar]

Standard caltrops ARE tetrahedral, just like 4 sided dice but with points (obviously).

As a D&Der from WAY back (1974), I can't imagine what the officials were thinking.
Maybe they were afraid that the inmates would have too much fun.
After all, I can name a couple of folks who would be perfectly happy to spend a few years just playing AD&D. No job, no bills, just pure fantasy role playing day in and day out.

Maybe the escape the officials were worrying about was a mental escape.
Prison is supposed to be unpleasant, right?

[Marley23]

This is very, very, very, very, very stupid.

For the record, though, the court didn't agree that D&D fosters gang activity. It said the D&D player (Singer) failed to prove that the prison was acting irrationaly when it decided D&D might lead to gang activity in the future and undermine prison security. He had to do that in order to show the officials were out of bounds and that they had to return his gaming materials. It's not that much of a difference, but it's a judicial ruling, so the truth is nitpicky: it's not enough that this interpretation of prison policy was incredibly moronic, and that not only did the prison officials not prove D&D is linked to gang activity, they straight-up admitted it hasn't lead to gang activity in the past. Singer also had to prove that the officials didn't have a rational basis for their belief that it the game could undermine authority in the prison and run counter to the goal of rehabilitation, and the court says he didn't do that.

Link to a PDF of the actual decision. (http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data2/circs/7th/073400p.pdf)

The FindLaw summary:
In an inmate's 42 U.S.C. section 1983 action against prison officials alleging that the confiscation of his Dungeons and Dragons game materials and imposition of a ban on D&D play violated his First Amendment right to free speech and his Fourteenth Amendment rights to due process and equal protection, district court's grant of summary judgment in favor of the prison officials is affirmed as, despite the inmate's large quantum of affidavit testimony asserting that D&D is not associated with gangs and that the game can improve inmate rehabilitation, he has failed to demonstrate a genuine issue of material fact concerning the reasonableness of the relationship between the ban and the prison's clearly legitimate penological interests.

[Phatlewt]

I read about this at the Above the Law Blog, and I thought this closing paragraph was spot on.

Obviously, this is where my bleeding heart gets the best of me. Because all this is about is punishment. It’s not about rehabilitation, it’s not about security, it’s about old-school vengeance carried out by state actors. He killed somebody, and we as a society found something else he liked that we can take away. So we’re going to take it away. It’s Christopher Lloyd playing a Klingon in Star Trek 3 telling Kirk he won’t beam up Spock “because you wish it.”

I guess that is our right. I guess there is no compelling interest in making the life imprisonment of a murderer a little less horrible. But vengeance, even when legal, is still ugly. The Seventh Circuit just made a Lawful Evil decision here.

[Dissonance]

The case suddenly makes a lot more sense to me, it's a prisoner grudge. From Marley's link:This all changed on or about November 14, 2004, when Waupun’s long-serving Disruptive Group Coordinator, Captain Bruce Muraski, received an anonymous letter from an inmate. The letter expressed concern that Singer and three other inmates were forming a D&D gang and were trying to recruit others to join by passing around their D&D publications and touting the “rush” they got from playing the game. Muraski, Waupun’s expert on gang activity, decided to heed the letter’s advice and “check into this gang before it gets out of hand.”

[Little Nemo]

Speaking as someone with actual experience in running prisons, that is one ridiculous regulation. I can't imagine any reason why I would forbid prisoners from playing role-playing games.

[Hello Again]

The fact is, the prison didn't have to be "right" about whether or not D&D fosters gang activity. They just had to think it did in such a way as that their decision to remove the game was not aribitrary. Waupun, where the event took place, is a Maximum Security prison. The D&D playing plaintiff bludgeoned someone to death with a hammer. I'm just saying, you can't always get what you want after you murder someone. Does anyone really disagree with the idea that the prison has the right to say what privileges and pastimes are permitted within its walls, especially its Maximum Security walls?

The judge(s) didn't say that D&D fostered gang activity, they said it was reasonable for the prison to believe it might. Is that stupid? Yes, probably.

Lawful Evil strikes again.

[Scuba_Ben]

Well, once they find out about all those Dwarven abilities, they'd try to get all the people under 4 feet tall to help them tunnel out. ;)

I wouldn't use kinder / hobbits / halflings for that. Gnomes if absolutely necessary, but no halflings.

And do you have any idea just how many spells there are that can be used to escape confinement?

Start with the basic knock spell to open the doors and go from there. Dozens of levitation and flight incantations. Stone to mud. Summon Earth elemental.

Then you add in all the glamours, charms, and illusions.

Admittedly there's no kill like overkill. For a standard cell door, though, I expect the unlock cantrip to work just fine.

[pravnik]

I'd roll to bend bars.

[Scuba_Ben]

I'd roll to bend bars.
Nothing like the quick and obvious solution.

[Bricker]

This is very, very, very, very, very stupid.

For the record, though, the court didn't agree that D&D fosters gang activity. It said the D&D player (Singer) failed to prove that the prison was acting irrationaly when it decided D&D might lead to gang activity in the future and undermine prison security. He had to do that in order to show the officials were out of bounds and that they had to return his gaming materials. It's not that much of a difference, but it's a judicial ruling, so the truth is nitpicky: it's not enough that this interpretation of prison policy was incredibly moronic, and that not only did the prison officials not prove D&D is linked to gang activity, they straight-up admitted it hasn't lead to gang activity in the past.

Yet a further wrinkle: this was a summary judgment against Singer, which means that the court was obliged to treat resolve all factual disputes in Singer's favor. In other words, they had to decide that if there were a trial, and if at that trial everything Singer said was found to be true, and every time Singer's opponent made a factual claim that contradicted Singer, Singer's version was the correct one.... that if all that were true, then Singer would still lose.

[kenobi 65]

Waupun, where the event took place, is a Maximum Security prison.

Ironic, since Waupun is only about 90 miles from Lake Geneva...which any good D&Der knows is the birthplace of the game. :)

[ZPG Zealot]

Speaking as someone with actual experience in running prisons, that is one ridiculous regulation. I can't imagine any reason why I would forbid prisoners from playing role-playing games.

Some role-playing games, D&D among them, encourage a group to work together to achieve goals and use intelligence and creativity to solve problems. I don't think that is a good reasons to ban them at all, but I can see why the prison administration would prefer the prisoners dumb and unwilling to work together

[pravnik]

I can see security problems. Ever seen a gamer meltdown because his 17th level thief didn't make his poisoned weapons saving throw? Now picture a 250 pound mentally unbalanced offender on a 40 year stretch for manslaughter doing the same. :D

[Kobal2]

Some role-playing games, D&D among them, encourage a group to work together to achieve goals and use intelligence and creativity to solve problems. I don't think that is a good reasons to ban them at all, but I can see why the prison administration would prefer the prisoners dumb and unwilling to work together

Yay, rehabilitation ! Social behaviour is overrated, anyway.

[Malthus]

The fact is, the prison didn't have to be "right" about whether or not D&D fosters gang activity. They just had to think it did in such a way as that their decision to remove the game was not aribitrary. Waupun, where the event took place, is a Maximum Security prison. The D&D playing plaintiff bludgeoned someone to death with a hammer. I'm just saying, you can't always get what you want after you murder someone. Does anyone really disagree with the idea that the prison has the right to say what privileges and pastimes are permitted within its walls, especially its Maximum Security walls?

The judge(s) didn't say that D&D fostered gang activity, they said it was reasonable for the prison to believe it might. Is that stupid? Yes, probably.

Lawful Evil strikes again.

Similar here in Canada.

In Canada at least, a judicial review of an administrative decision like that would depend on a couple of factors:

1. Did the prision official violate any of the the prisoner's rights under the Charter of Rights? I assume the answer here is likely to be "no"; and

2. Was the decision not rationally based?

On the latter point, the courts tend to defer to the decision-maker, assuming where that person has expertise in that area that the decision-maker has insight into how to do their job.

In short, they will not substitute their decision for that of the decision-maker merely because they would decide otherwise on the point, but only where there was no reasonable basis on which the decision could have been made; a fairly high onus to meet.

Edit: think of judical review as the prisioners' saving throw. In this case, they had to roll a "20". No surprise that they failed.

[Tapioca Dextrin]

The FindLaw summary:

An alternative summary (http://www.gameculture.com/2010/01/26/wisconsin-prisons-ban-dampd-over-quotgangquot-worries-courts-agree)

So there you have it, geek felons, leveling up is a privilege, not a right. And your clandestine efforts to steal control of the joint from the Aryans and Nortenos by forming a nerd herd have been thwarted, so say farewell to that +6 Shank of Many Uses and stop carving polyhedra out of soap. Too bad, 'The Rolling 20s' is a great name for a prison gang.

[Marley23]

I look forward to major D&D nerd Stephen Colbert getting a hold of this story. Anyway I understand the court's reasoning in backing the prison here but the confiscation itself does not make any kind of logical sense.

[Mr. Excellent]

I look forward to major D&D nerd Stephen Colbert getting a hold of this story. Anyway I understand the court's reasoning in backing the prison here but the confiscation itself does not make any kind of logical sense.

Clearly, Dr. Stephen Colbert, D.F.A., is now qualfied to serve as a consultant/talking head on prison reform. He enjoys keen insights into this little-understood, and highly dangerous, prison subculture.

[Oakminster]

Lawful Evil strikes again.

Depends on who you're talking about being Lawful Evil here. The prison officials may qualify, if they intended to harm or otherwise discomfit the prisoner. I'd say the 7th Circuit's action would be closer to Lawful Stupid Neutral. They appear to have decided the case according to the law, without malice or benevolence.

The prisoner is likely Chaotic by default, but could be Chaotic Neutral, Chaotic Evil, or possibly even Chaotic Good if his crime had similar motives to the one committed by Billy Jack...

[Mr. Excellent]

Depends on who you're talking about being Lawful Evil here. The prison officials may qualify, if they intended to harm or otherwise discomfit the prisoner. I'd say the 7th Circuit's action would be closer to Lawful Stupid Neutral. They appear to have decided the case according to the law, without malice or benevolence.

The prisoner is likely Chaotic by default, but could be Chaotic Neutral, Chaotic Evil, or possibly even Chaotic Good if his crime had similar motives to the one committed by Billy Jack...

Chaotic Good seems unlikely, given his history.

[Grumman]

Chaotic Good seems unlikely, given his history.
Agreed. Apparently the victim was his sister's boyfriend, and she testified against him during the murder trial.

[The Second Stone]

Yet a further wrinkle: this was a summary judgment against Singer, which means that the court was obliged to treat resolve all factual disputes in Singer's favor. In other words, they had to decide that if there were a trial, and if at that trial everything Singer said was found to be true, and every time Singer's opponent made a factual claim that contradicted Singer, Singer's version was the correct one.... that if all that were true, then Singer would still lose.

It's been a long time since you have practiced. You have described the way it works for the rich and powerful. Impoverished parties are routinely dismissed on summary judgment and appeals buried in quick unpublished decisions in California. The one good thing that has happened in recent years is that in federal court you can cite unpublished opinions. Many state courts do not allow that, including California. All sorts of interesting things happen in unpublished opinions: clear repeated objections in records suddenly do not exist and only one party's interpretation of the facts are considered.

That said, prison wouldn't be much of a punishment if people like me were allowed to play D & D to while away the time. It would be like getting lifetime appointment to District Court.

[Bricker]

It's been a long time since you have practiced. You have described the way it works for the rich and powerful.

It has, and I never practiced civil law at all, so the whole notion of summary judgement is theoretical to me -- I guess the closest criminal analog would be a motion to quash the indictment.

But I do remember that long-ago Civil Pro class and the distinction between Rule 56 and 12(b)(6) motions, at least, as I say, in theory.

[Merneith]

Obligatory Penny Arcade summation:

Gwaihir In The House (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2010/1/27/)

[Sitnam]

Yah, it's hard to follow - not least because DMs (good ones, anyway) really *don't* give "absolutely guidance and direction" to the other players. DMs don't give orders, other than purely mechanical instruction - "okay, roll to see if cast magic missile worked ..."
/*Incredibly nerdy pedantic nitpick*/

Magic Missiles don't require a 'to hit' role and allow no saving throw.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

How strange. I can possibly see the angle that Bubba would throw an almightily violent rage-fit when the DM killed off his 20th level Kobold thief, but still...isn't fantasizing about a world other than that which they are currently in what prisoners do to pass the time?

I can think of books that they are allowed to read that are quite a bit more subversive than playing D&D.

[Lobohan]

/*Incredibly nerdy pedantic nitpick*/

Magic Missiles don't require a 'to hit' role and allow no saving throw./*Incredibly nerdy pedantic nitpick*/ Under current 4th edition rules, you roll it Int against Reflex defense and do 2d4 plus Intelligence Modifier damage.

Also it counts as a ranged basic attack.

:D

[villa]

You have described the way it works for the rich and powerful.

Hey - even the rich and powerful need justice in civil cases! :p And thank God for that, means I can pay my mortgage.

I'm always surprised at the success of summary judgment motions even between large parties, both ably (and expensively) represented. While it doesn't always get rid of the whole of the case, it's pretty common that the case gets trimmed down at that stage.

[Danimal]

If the prison officials had said openly: "Prison is for punishment; forbidding fun things makes the punishment worse, and thus more of a deterrent; D&D is fun, so we're forbidding it," I could respect that. I might not agree with it, but it would be rationally related to a penal purpose. And I certainly don't think that anybody, much less a prisoner, has a constitutional right to play D&D.

But D&D promotes gang activity or is a security risk? Nope. Not rational, not even remotely related to any existing evidence. If this is a rational basis, anything is; you might as well get rid of the rational basis test completely.

[Qadgop the Mercotan]

Prison security officials are given wide latitude in deciding what inmate group activities are and are not allowed. Period. The concept of "freedom of association" doesn't go very far in correctional institutions.

[Chronos]

That said, prison wouldn't be much of a punishment if people like me were allowed to play D & D to while away the time. It would be like getting lifetime appointment to District Court.That's because people like you probably don't go to prison in great numbers. I suspect most folks who end up in prison would view hanging out with nerds as itself a punishment.

Meanwhile, I think it's a great idea for prisoners to develop new, non-destructive hobbies in the Big House. Learning to spend their time rolling dice and talking about magic (and incidentally, getting along with other people) is probably a lot better than beating up random people for wearing the wrong clothes, or shooting up drugs, or whatever they were doing before they went in.

[Oakminster]

/*Incredibly nerdy pedantic nitpick*/

Magic Missiles don't require a 'to hit' role and allow no saving throw.

But, under 1st Edition rules, they may be blocked by magic resistance; absorbed by a broach of shielding; reflected by a ring (can't remember the name), absorbed by a Staff of the Magi (or Power), captured by a ring of spell storing; or blocked by minor globe of invulnerability, globe of invulnerability, or prismatic sphere.
:p

[SteveG1]

Well, once they find out about all those Dwarven abilities, they'd try to get all the people under 4 feet tall to help them tunnel out. ;)
Why tunnel? A teleportation spell is all you need.

[Tapioca Dextrin]

"okay, roll to see if cast magic missile worked ..."

I think the issue is not whether a MM can be dodged, but rather the fact that the spell itself has a chance of failing. If your mage is too dumb to reliably cast a 1st level spell, your party is in big trouble.

[Ají de Gallina]

It has, and I never practiced civil law at all, so the whole notion of summary judgement is theoretical to me -- I guess the closest criminal analog would be a motion to quash the indictment.

But I do remember that long-ago Civil Pro class and the distinction between Rule 56 and 12(b)(6) motions, at least, as I say, in theory.

(my bolding)
I have no idea what that means and I will report your post:D

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

Prison security officials are given wide latitude in deciding what inmate group activities are and are not allowed. Period. The concept of "freedom of association" doesn't go very far in correctional institutions.

Would that include gathering around a television for say, the Superbowl?

[dropzone]

(my bolding)
I have no idea what that means and I will report your post:DI'd guess they refer to some addendum to AD&D but I gave up on D&D when I opened the box and realized I needed more geekish friends and MUCH more spare time than I was willing to pretend to be someone else, this being decades before internet message boards.

My daughter has a friend who violated what even I know is the Cardinal Rule: Don't date your Dungeon Master. Yes, it turned out as badly as you might guess, though she managed to turn aside all of his spells, they not being real and all.

ETA: Okay, it was all the dice that first scared me. :(

[Little Nemo]

Don't date your Dungeon Master.Yeah, we have that rule in prison too.

[dropzone]

But IRL it's easier to enforce.

[pravnik]

(my bolding)
I have no idea what that means and I will report your post:DBriefly put:

Rule 56: "Even if that's true, you're still full of shit."

Rule 12(b)(6): "What in God's name are you talking about?"

[dropzone]

Y'know, I sat in while too many of these extralegal debates took place. Eventually I wandered off to the vending machine and bought myself a grape soda, hoping against any form of hope a decision would be reached before I returned. I wasn't a player and had only a grape soda between me, you idiots (a generic term intended as descriptive, not overly offensive), and hitting the rack on the nearest sofa.

Took a call from my future wife: "Yeah, I'm sleeping with Cathy...but she's on the other el of the sofa." Wife didn't find it funny, and the game went on.

[MrDibble]

Maybe they should have asked a guard to DM.

[dropzone]

that could be really cool

[Miller]

Meh. Dude beat a guy to death with a hammer. I don't have a problem with him losing his Player's Handbook privileges. And the whole "D&D promotes gang behavior" thing gives me a warm glow of nostalgia for the '80s D&D Satanism panic. It's kind of amazing how many people back then thought that Jack Chick's "Dungeons of Darkness" was a reasonable scenario.

Anyway, the fact that this asshole needs a book and dice to run a game just shows what sort of tyro he really is.

[Kobal2]

Why tunnel? A teleportation spell is all you need.

Don't be silly. Waupaun is a maximum security prison. It wouldn't be much of a secure jail if it hadn't a permanent Enlarged Antimagic Field cast on it.

[Qadgop the Mercotan]

Would that include gathering around a television for say, the Superbowl?
It would.

However, wardens and other security folk like to keep the climate comfortable at an institution. So it'd be unlikely they'd restrict the general population from watching the super bowl. They'd watch it the same way they get to watch regular tv, in most cases: On the unit TV in relatively small groups. Act up and get sent to your cell. Where you may or may not have your own TV, depending on your privileges, etc.

[The Second Stone]

It has, and I never practiced civil law at all, so the whole notion of summary judgement is theoretical to me -- I guess the closest criminal analog would be a motion to quash the indictment.

But I do remember that long-ago Civil Pro class and the distinction between Rule 56 and 12(b)(6) motions, at least, as I say, in theory.

And I should apologize because I didn't mean to scold you and it came off that way. I'm sorry. The more I practice, the more cynical I get about courts. We were all taught that version of summary judgment (SJ ain't Society of Jesus in the law, despite being taught law by Jesuits).

[Evil Economist]

Does this mean they only took his materials? Can he (or the generic prisoner) continue to play using memorized rules? Can the warden prohibit him from playing even if playing consisted entirely of talking with other prisoners?

[tdn]

No. Nothing about the game of D&D would give a person any real life guidance about how to escape from prison. A game scenario would be something like this:

Player 1: I try to escape from prison!
(Dungeon Master rolls dice)
DM: You successfully escape!

To be fair, that's not a scenario I'd run or want to play in.

Player 1: I try to escape from prison!
DM: How?
Player 1: I bend back the bars.
DM: When you try, the guard threatens to skewer you with his spear.
Player 1: I try to bribe the guard.
DM: With what? You have no money.
Player 1: I tell him I have 100 silver pieces back home that I'll bring to him.
DM: He laughs in your face.

One of the first scenarios that I ever ran was a prison escape. I designed it to be impossible to escape. No found key, no hidden doors, nothing. The players figured out something on their own.

Damn liberal DM. Putting heros right back on the street.

[Kearsen]

Fundamental flaw in character creation, the dude in the OP's wisdom was too low.

[Little Nemo]

One of the first scenarios that I ever ran was a prison escape. I designed it to be impossible to escape. No found key, no hidden doors, nothing. The players figured out something on their own.They had the elf in the next building miswrite a magic a fireball spell for a magic competition and accidentally blow down the prison wall?

[DocCathode]

I agree that this is just stupid. D&D (and other role-playing games) enjoy great popularity among members of the military because they make being confined to base *, eating crap food, and the boredom of routine all more bearable. It really does sound to me, all humor aside, that they decided that the inmates had found a way to make life less horrible- so they banned it. If they were playing certain games that allowed or even encouraged the characters to behave like real world criminals (Say a Cainite running a street gang or selling drugs in Vampire The Masquerade, or a hacker performing cybercrimes in Shadowrun, or especially a character who is a hitman in GhostDog), I could understand the decision. But D&D is not like that. Even an evil thief character relies upon outdated methods of centuries ago and magics that just don't work in reality. A party of characters does work like a gang in some ways- as does any group of people. I find the decision cruel, stupid and ridiculous.

* I've heard, sadly without cite, that D&D is wildly popular on submarine crews.

[Maeglin]

Does this mean they only took his materials? Can he (or the generic prisoner) continue to play using memorized rules? Can the warden prohibit him from playing even if playing consisted entirely of talking with other prisoners?

My brother and I used to play RPGs when we were little kids. When we effectively stopped doing our homework, our parents took away our books on schoolnights. So we played from memory instead and used a deck of cards to generate random numbers. Our parents thought about it for awhile and just returned our materials during the week. It was kind of an interesting problem.

[needscoffee]

A friend of mine was involved with a case in Texas a year or two ago where the state was trying to execute a man whose attorney was claiming him to be mentally retarded. The D.A. was trying to gather evidence evidence to the contrary. In the prisoner's cell, they found a copy of one of the D&D players' handbooks. Apparently it's a popular game in Texas prisons, too. The D.A. tried to get the author of the book to come and testify that any inmate capable of reading and understanding that book and the game itself must not be mentally retarded. The author refused. We never found out if they found someone else to do the job.

[tdn]

They had the elf in the next building miswrite a magic a fireball spell for a magic competition and accidentally blow down the prison wall?

Wow, it's like you were there.

[Sitnam]

/*Incredibly nerdy pedantic nitpick*/ Under current 4th edition rules, you roll it Int against Reflex defense and do 2d4 plus Intelligence Modifier damage.

Also it counts as a ranged basic attack.

:D
I heard a rumor about this new accursed 4th Edition, I'm glad they never went forward with publishing it.

[Little Nemo]

Wow, it's like you were there.No, I just read the book.

[foolsguinea]

At first I was :rolleyes:, but then I remembered that D&D is pretty much roleplaying as graverobbers &/or thuggish "samurai" types (not a compliment).

Yeah, I can see why a prison wouldn't want to encourage that sort of antisocial power fantasy, & its unrealistic reward system (Sorting Algorithm of Evil (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SortingAlgorithmOfEvil), anyone?) I know too many people who use it just to play evil characters, & even the good characters aren't such hot role models.

[foolsguinea]

ETA: also mentioned as a rationale was the idea that D&D could foster gang activity because the game emulates gang strcuture. One player, the Dungeon Master, gives absolute guidance and direction to subordinate players, exactly as a gang boss gives direction to his subordinates.Oh, well, that's dumb. The DM is often the antagonist. That said, a DM who acted as wise leader & protector, acting in collusion with his charges, that could be ganglike.

Crap, that's not dumb after all.:eek:The Dungeon Master creates the setting of the game, but he's not supposed to direct players how they act. Whether a player succeeds at a particular action depends upon his character's statistics and the roll of the dice.Consider what happens if someone who's already a controlling 'gang boss' personality is DM, & does it his way, rather than the standard way.

[Malacandra]

But, under 1st Edition rules, they may be blocked by magic resistance; absorbed by a broach of shielding; reflected by a ring (can't remember the name), absorbed by a Staff of the Magi (or Power), captured by a ring of spell storing; or blocked by minor globe of invulnerability, globe of invulnerability, or prismatic sphere.
:p

MR yes; brooch (note spelling) yes; ring of spell turning (usually results in caster and target each taking partial damage); staff of the magi yes; staff of power no; ring of spell storing only if the spell is deliberately cast into it as a recharge (but a rod of absorption will do what you want); and to the listed spells add shield. Also a scarab of protection allows a special save (net 20, with automatic +1 for the scarab itself and any general saving throw bonuses from other items and spells).

Don't make me come over there. :D

[Auntbeast]

If people find out they can play D&D in prison, and if rumor shows they can have cheetos and mountain dew, watch the crime rate jump!


I've always been sort of interested in D&D, my first time actually playing, we spent 7 hours on character building, came back the next night for the (obviously sucky) GM to run a game that allowed his psycho girlfriend to derail the game and have everyone around the forest for 5 hours looking for a lost dog she "found."

Needless to say, there was no night 3.