Should schools require phys. ed. class?

[SpartanDC]

This post in the IMHO thread Showering with Junior Highers (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=1046887#post1046887) got me thinking...

Originally posted by Spoons
At the school I attended for grades 7 and 8 (this was in the early 1970s), we had to shower after gym class. It was a communal shower, no separate stalls. Refusing to take one earned you a detention. We had one kid, Jeff, who racked up detentions like nobody's business. He always refused.

Most of the time, we could get away with wrapping a towel around ourselves and sticking our head under the shower head just inside the shower room. The teacher would see our wet hair and assume we had been in there.

But one day, somebody tipped him off that we weren't really taking showers. So he decided to make sure that everybody--including Jeff--took one.

So there we were, thirty naked 12-year-old boys, standing in a room that measured about nine feet square, embarrassed as hell and trying not to touch each other. (Not easy to do, let me tell you.) And we watched the gym teacher beg, plead, cajole, and coax Jeff in with us. Jeff refused, the teacher angered, Jeff cried, the teacher had had enough.

I don't remember what happened after that terribly well, but here's pretty much what went down: the teacher grabbed Jeff's towel and gave him a push in the door. And we saw why Jeff never wanted to take a shower.

He had no penis. Rudimentary testicles yes (he was only 12), but no penis. Just a little hole.

By this time, poor Jeff was on the shower floor bawling his eyes out and frantically trying to cover himself. The teacher, realizing what he had done, moved in to try to help. We all got out of there as fast as we could.
This is the extreme, but I wonder if this and other gym class traumas make it worth it. All gym ever seemed to me was an opportunity to play silly games like dodgeball and real games that would let those who were already athletes flaunt themselves and make unathletic kids feel bad about themselves and get made fun of continually.

I think there are few people who became athletes because of gym class. Let me state that I think grade schoolers should have gym so they get used to physical activity and like it and that I think health classes up to high school are very important. But when kids are going through the already stressful period of adolescence, isn't gym class the last thing they need to worry about?

[RickJay]

I'm glad I took gym class in Grade 9. But my gym teacher was terrific and took the approach of "teach them as many specific sports skills as possible."

So we spent a week learning how to throw a football. I don't mean we played touch football and the football players all dominated; I mean we learned how to throw a football. By the end of the week the least athletic kids were all throwing footballs with perfect spirals.

The following week: This is how you PUNT a football. By the end of the week every kid in class could punt a football at least 25 yards.

The following week: This is how you serve a volleyball.

This is how you volley a volleyball.

This is how you pass a basketball.

This is how you execute a backwards somersault.

There were also the standard classes on nutrition, rules of sport, proper exercise, stretching, the whole nine yards. All expertly taught according to strict lesson plans.

It was like that all year; all the students learned sports skills they'd never had before. Terrific class. I lucked out, I know, but I'm glad I did.

[Milossarian]

Well, that OP story is rather horrible. But gym class does serve a purpose.

We're a rather overweight, sedentary country, statistics tend to indicate. Even our kids. Does that problem get better or worse without gym?

And gym class provides a great deal of social interaction and 'teamwork-teaching' in addition to plain-old good exercise.

Like any other subject, if it's taught poorly, it won't be worthwhile. If it's taught well, it will be a positive thing for young people's development.

[Typo Negative]

Gym class in theory is important. In practice, it can suck.

If we all could have had instruction like in RickJay's example, it would be great. Sadly, it wasn't like that in my schools. We recieved almost no instruction on any sport. It was assumed that the kid would be familiar with the rules and intricacies of a particular sport. Gym class was basically an hour-long pick-up game. The only thing the 'teacher' wrote down in his book was dress-cuts (showing up without proper gym attire). I clued into this right away. If I don't show up at all, I don't get a dress cut. I skipped every class and got an A.

At least at our school, the old saying was true. 'Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach. Those who can't teach, teach gym'.

[Caliban]

Ah, dress-cuts. The memories.

Team sports aren't the only way to keep physically fit. I hated gym because I was lousy at organized sports and I usually got picked last for teams. Hell, they would sometimes get into arguments over which team would have to take me: "We got him last time, dammit you take him!" Then the coach would have to assign me, and I'd meet with groans of disappointment or outright threats: "You better not fuck up this time, loser!" My teammates would make sure to assign me to a position that required the least amount of participation in the game so I couldn't fuck things up. Then I'd stand around the whole hour watching other people exercise. The coach was no help either. He was a laissez-faire coach. He'd stand there with his thumb up his ass staring at the clouds while we "settled our own disputes". Gym was a nightmare for me and about ten other "losers" who couldn't catch a ball or kick a goal. At least we didn't have to take showers.

I was overweight in high school and I suppose that gym could have helped me lose weight had I been given the opportunity to actually work out. I would have preferred jogging around the track the whole hour. Anything was preferable to those damn sports. I did lose weight during my junior and senior years, no thanks to gym. I ended up taking matters into my own hands and getting my exercise *after* school.

Every once in awhile we had a kind of "free-for-all" day when we were allowed choose any activity we wanted as long as we kept active. Some people would form teams and play football. Many of us would jog around the track, play tennis, use the weight equipment, or do calisthenics. That was the only time I ever enjoyed gym, and I usually got one hell of a workout. Why can't gym be like that? Let the team sports be extracurricular, for Christ's sake.

--Caliban

[Stella*Fantasia]

Ugh, gym class. While I agree that something should be done to stop the ever-increasing obesity of Americans, I don't think it's the answer.

Like, who wasn't traumatized in some way by gym class? In high school, I was in excellent physical condition - I studied ballet, jazz, and modern dance & swam on the swim team. But I have asthma & I can't run very fast, & while I do very well with activities requiring endurance and control, I'm not very strong. Because of this, I sucked at just about everything we did in gym class. (I have served a volleyball over the net exactly one time in my entire life.) Doesn't mean I'm a couch potato, but gym class has very little to do with physical fitness.

[ticker]

P.E. (as we brits tend to call it, or Games) is a bit like English Lit. If E.Lit is taught badly it can turn people off reading good books. Gym done badly it can reinforce a negative image and lead to kids avoiding physical exercise.

My own experience is of teachers being only interested in team sports like rugby. I sucked at rugby 'cos I was small and if I ever got the ball all these big kids would jump on me. I got quite good at being where the ball wasn't. I was actually quite good at cross country running but we only did that when the rugby pitch was frozen over. If only the p.e. staff had bothered to cover a wider variety of sports I am sure many more would have found one that suited them enough to actually enjoy it.

[erislover]

I hated gym class, had to take two years of it and I always got in fights. Stupid jocks always thought they were so hot, which was just annoying, bu then they had to give the rest of us shit for it, which was infuriating. Nothing funnier than seeing a football player cringe from a skinny runt like I was, but man was I pissed. Rick, if my class was like that I would have taken it no problem.
Never had the communal shower problem...sheesh. I can't believe that. No penis?!?
I'll go with Stella, gym class isn't there to keep us in shape. If it was it would be aerobics class or something, not "flag football" and volleyball. Gym class is there...well, I really don't know why its there. I hated it. If my kids hate it I'll understand. F gym.

[Duck Duck Goose]

The OP is moot here in my downstate Illinois school district, where the voters have turned down, for the second time, a proposed tax increase to pay for school improvements. One of the first things to be cut for next year is The Cat's high school Phys Ed program. No great loss, IMHO.

[Spoons]

Ah, gym class. Didn't Calvin once call gym class, "Contemporary Studies in State-Sponsored Terrorism"?

In spite of the Jeff incident, I didn't mind gym class all that much. What bugged me about it was that the teacher never got to know my name--I was neither good enough nor bad enough to stand out. And after that one teacher, the rest of my PE teachers were pretty harmless.

The early years of high school were fairly standard, but in the later years of high school, the gym teachers at our school rotated around the classes so you got something from all of them. IIRC, there were three male teachers and three female, and we had each of them for some point of the school year. Some of them taught us skills, as RickJay mentioned, and those were useful in another way too--you got to know just what went into the pro sports we watched on TV. Others let us play the games the skills came from, and those were kind of fun as well. Still others gave us more individual things like track and field. We even had a few co-ed gym classes, for things like tennis. It was interesting to be able to learn about and try all kinds of different things, and I'd recommend the same kind of approach today.

However, I'd temper that attitude with a condition: if a student is participating seriously in some other kind of physical activity, that student can be exempted from gym class and get a PE credit for their outside activity. My sister, for example, was a serious figure skater. She would be at the rink for at least three hours a day after school, and more on weekends, and she hated gym class. She would have preferred to get a PE credit for her skating instead of suffering through yet another basketball or volleyball game sandwiched between Math and History. My parents and I tended to agree with her point--20-plus hours of figure skating per week sure seemed to be more physical activity than a couple of hours of gym class. But not in the eyes of the school, apparently.

[Polycarp]

In theory, physical education is a good idea -- teach kids some body skills, the importance of both halves of "mens sana in corpore sano" and all that good crap.

In practice, it nearly always turns into the sort of thing that has inspired threads here and in the Pit about how awful it is/was.

If a math teacher focused on his brightest students, ridiculed the stupidest and encouraged the bright students to do likewise, and told them they just had to grin and bear it, he'd be out the door in less time than it takes to hear a parental complaint. And good riddance!

So why do we allow it to happen in phys. ed.?

My experience was of being by 20 months the youngest kid in my classes, and of fairly small and puny build for my age on top of that. Hence, the song and dance you've all heard (and most have said) a hundred times before: last chosen, ridiculed, always picked on, etc.

I agree that a teacher who focuses on individual students and tries to teach skills is a valuable thing, in phys. ed. as in other disciplines. I had one in fourteen years of phys. ed. (it was a junior college requirement too). The rest of it I might better have simply painted a bullseye on me and offered potshots to all comers; at least that way I'd have at least initial control of the terms on which I was to be tortured.

Two options: Clean it up. Immediately. Or ban it.

[SpartanDC]

RickJay, I would have loved to have had a gym class like that. Since I was asthmatic as a kid, I never learned those skills and learning them in high school would have been a great self-esteem booster. Sometimes I wonder what I'm going to teach my kids to do since I can't do any of it myself.

The only good thing about my gym class was the teacher. He also taught freshman history, which I excelled at, so he liked me a lot. He even put the smackdown on some kids who were picking on me in class. And he'd joke around with me when I was just standing around during the games, because, of course, I was put wherever I'd have to do the least. Shockingly, he was also the varsity football coach.

But as I stated in the OP, I really don't care for this class. Make it an option, yes, but don't require it. Or totally revamp it to a system like RickJay's class, with some weightlifting and aerobics thrown in. If I have any choice in where I send my kids to school, I will ask about the PE program. I don't want my kids picked on, nor do I want them to pick on anyone else if they're blessed with physical talents.

[delphica]

I can't believe I am about to say this, but ... I do think schools should require some sort of phys. ed. class. This from the girl who claimed to have her period continuously for three straight years in order to skip gym. This from the girl who graduated without knowing where the school's pool was located. This from the girl who selected her college because it didn't have a gym requirement.

The key would be to eliminate the traumas associated with phys. ed. as we now know it. The getting picked last for teams, getting picked on by other kids, teasing in the locker rooms ... I think I'm having a retroactive anxiety attack while typing this.

In my perfect universe, all phys. ed would incorporate the following:
-- all teams picked by alphabet order, birthday order, something, anything other than letting kids pick their peers.
--focus on specific skills, as described by RickJay.
--teach the rules and general history of the sports. This does not mean the teacher stands around for the first 5 minutes of class and recites the rules. This means that a class time is scheduled to sit down and learn actual information.
--have options available for students, including team sports, weight lifting, track, and other more recreational-type activities, such as ping pong and archery. This would give students the ability to select an activity that doesn't involve changing clothes (and yes, I know you can break a sweat playing table tennis, I have watched the Olympics ... but I'm talking about the level of ping pong played by me).
--for students who don't want either the sweaty team sport, or the less active recreational activity, give them something sport-related to do, like organizing an elimination tournament. (I was going to add something about how to figure out a point spread, or setting up a football pool, but then I realized I was getting a little outside the realm of what can be taught in schools.)

I don't think phys. ed. has much actual use in making kids healthier or losing weight. As Caliban mentioned, this will most likely happen outside of school. But when I was teenager, I don't think I appreciated how much I needed a break from the more intellectual parts of my school day.

And a final thought ... sports are a part of our society. It's not required in my office that I play golf, but I wish I did when I see other people accepting the boss's invitation for a golf weekend. I think girls in particular might be quick to wiggle out of phys. ed. requirements in school. I certainly did, and I think I would have done that differently if I realized how often in life one encounters sports and recreation. It might not be fair, but I think it's realistic to say that it often plays a key part of social and business interactions. Being able to participate in sports in even the most minimal way gives people one more skill they can use outside of school.

[Podkayne]

As a student, I hated gym. I hated having to run laps. I hated participating in stupid team sports. I hated the boys hogging the ball and never passing to girls. I hated hated hated having to put on polyester gym shorts and get all sweaty in the middle of the day.

And most of all, I hated learning to square dance in junior high.

However, I think physical education, properly done, is important, and I'm glad I was forced to go through it. I had to do a lot of stuff I hated, but I also did some sports and activities that I enjoyed. I got some exercise, but I don't think that should be the primary purpose of phys ed. It should be learning the fundementals of team sports and sportsmanship, and also learning how to do things safely, like stretching out ahead of time, tracking your heart beat rate, and so forth.

That having been said, having a phys ed requirment in college is ridiculous. It exists only to employ phys ed majors.

[Guinastasia]

For the record, our football coach from my freshman and sophomore years was really pretty nice too, and VERY understanding.

I hated gym class, though. Most of the time, we had jock teachers who didn't get why we weren't very good at throwing a ball, and who forced us to lift weights without even training us first, who made us run the mile run after walking up two very steep hills, etc etc...
Gym was evil.

[Gregor Samsa]

Staying fit is key to becoming a well-adjusted individual. My biggest problem with phys. ed. is the fact that it seems to have teachers that are the most sadistic, unimaginative people around. My experience with phys. ed. goes back to the 1970s, so maybe things have changed, but it seemed in those days that gym class was given by whichever teacher drew the short straw. That was junior high (ages 11 to 15 or so) - by the time high school (ages 16 - 18) rolled around I was skipping pretty much every phys. ed. class I could without actually failing.

By all means teach kids to stay fit, but give them some options. I was never a sociable kid (I'm not a sociable adult either) which means I never got into team sports. I didn't hate them, I just couldn't see the point. But, if my jr. high phys. ed. teacher has given the class the option of splitting into two groups (this group works on basketball, this group works on track,) things might have been different. I enjoyed the solitary stuff - shotput, sprinting, discus, even lap running to some degree, but the forced comraderie and the expectation that I was supposed to give a rat's hind quarters whether my floor hockey team won or lost - forget it. I just didn't care. I enjoyed aspects of the games, just not playing the actual games themselves (if you see what I mean.)

Keep the classes, upgrade the teachers. Replace them with people who care about the kids and realize that different people are into different things. It seems so obvious.

[MsRobyn]

I hated gym class. I was one of the first to develop, I was overweight as it was, and I lacked self-confidence. Naturally, I dressed in the bathroom.

In high school, I had the fortune of being in the same class with other girls who felt the same way as I did about the whole thing, so it was a little more bearable. In Texas, just about any extracurricular activity will earn credit for gym, so we didn't have the problem of truly athletic people in the same classes with us peons. Later on, when I joined ROTC, we got dressed at home, so the problem was eliminated.

Consequently, I think that schools should offer alternatives, whenever possible. Allow marching band, ROTC, team sports, cheerleading and drill team, and if indicated, ice-skating, gymnastics, dance, and other competitive after-school activities to earn gym credit. Perhaps offer yoga and relaxation or a healthy-lifestyles class.

And, as for the OP, the kid's parents could've talked with the school and inform them as to their son's condition, and possibly gotten a waiver from showering.

Robin

[New & Improved Scott]

First things first, I was by far not the most athletic kin in school. By far.

But, I adored Phys Ed. It was the one class I could blow off steam. I had fun playing sports, and I wish I could stop in the middle of my shift at work and pelt the guy at the desk next to me with a dodgeball. Ah, the memories.

We had a crazy teacher too, but we regarded him rather humourously. He was in good shape for a man in his sixties, and his vocabulary for obscure cursewords is unparalled by any person I have met since (he called me a Bloody harpooned piece of meathead once, for missing a pass, and I missed the next few plays bent over in laughter). We were an ethnically diverse school, and very competative with each other, and much posturing went on after class, but mostly in good humour.

And as for horrible embarrasement, the kids at my school didn`t need to be in gym to get any of that.

[justwannano]

I'm sorry but I doubt the ops story about the kid named jeff.
Anyone disfigured like that could easily have obtained a MDs note to not take gym class. Or mearly not take showers.

When I was in Jr high in the catholic school we didn't
have gym class. I was a tall wimpy kid when we went to public school when I was in 8th grade. Gym class was hard and I wasn't very coordinated because I had no muscle tone. As the years went by I toned up. When I was in 11th grade I was a starter on the schools first football team. I still got beat by the opposing teams players but guts and determination kept me in there.I started both years and was in the best shape of my life when I graduated from high school.
Physical Education is supposed to be just that. How to get fit and how to stay that way. Tiddley winks may be a physical skill but it does not use much of the bodys muscles. Playing basketball uses many muscles and the harder you play the more good it does. If you hurt ,within reason, you are doing your body good. Too bad if you don't like to exert yourself.Perhaps you should ask yourself if you are just lazy.
As far as showers go why should you be ashamed of your body? You'll get over the embarrasment. If you are grotesquely obese as someone mentioned maybe you should begin getting serious about doing something about it.

[SpartanDC]

Justwannano, I think the problem that myself and other posters have with gym class is not that we're lazy, it's that no effort was ever made to teach us anything. As for your doubt of the Jeff story, that is between you and Spoons.

Making me play basketball when I don't know the basic rules and techniques involved is not going to make me a better athlete. It will only mark me as the kid who should never touch the ball. Thus begins the vicious cycle.

I don't agree with some of the posts saying you should be allowed to do non-physical activity in gym class. However, I think requiring sports that require a great deal of prior knowledge and experience should not be part of a required class.

You don't go into a basic, required math class expected to already know what you're going to learn. But having to play team sports in gym requires exactly that. In being taught to play basketball, most gym teachers already expect you to know how to play basketball. This is a fundamental flaw of educational philosophy that needs to be corrected.

But everyone can figure out how to lift a weight, or do aerobic exercises or run. And everyone can be taught how to live a healthy lifestyle. As it stands now, most gym classes inherenly favor those who need them the least -- the athletic. That is wrong from a health, educational and social perspective. And it has to change.

[justwannano]

SNeck
Run Run Run
Basketball is a physical game. It requires that you be somewhere near the basket to shoot.
Are you a runner? Not many people really are. How many people can even approach the times of todays super stars. They are coached. If you join the basketball team you might be trained to play basketball.
I have a 13year old daughter that thinks she should be on the basketball team. She is. The Jr high plays three games each time they play. The A team consists of 14 players. She is not one of them. The B & C team consist of 26 girls. She still looks at herself with blinders and still tries to shoot baskets from mid court.I don't know how many times I have told her to shoot from near the basket until she can make that shot every time. Then move to another spot.She sees herself as someday being the hero by making that shot.
Not many people can be an athletic hero. most never get close. It takes a lot of work and not much cheering when the largest amount of work is going on. You have to practice, Practice <practice and when you are done you have to Practice ,practice ,practice some more with someone else that may take the shot that makes him the hero.
Sneck
Just the running is doing your heart,lungs and leg muscles a great deal of good.I tried to play basketball and should have been good at You see I'm Tall, Thats all it takes isn't it? It wasn't until I was out of school that it dawned on me that if I could just beat the guy I was to guard I was winning weather the team was or not.
I've a feeling this is going to IMHO

[Spoons]

Originally posted by Justwannano
I'm sorry but I doubt the ops story about the kid named jeff. Anyone disfigured like that could easily have obtained a MDs note to not take gym class. Or mearly not take showers

Doubting is fine. I'd have a hard time believing it myself if I hadn't seen it. But it happened, and I did.

This was, if memory serves, 1972. The strap had only been outlawed for a few years in Toronto, where the incident occurred. Many people still were of the mind that the school knew best in matters of discipline, and teachers basically were in charge during the school day. Any parent's objections to teaching methods and other matters at school were routinely dismissed.

Moreover, this teacher was known as a hard case. Other teachers didn't force their male students to take showers; for all girls, showers were optional. But this teacher made it plain that the only thing that would get one out of gym or showers was hospitalization or death. And we all accepted it, because we knew no better. Let's face it; most of us had been told for years to obey the teacher. So we did.

Maybe a physician's note would have been useful, but maybe it wouldn't have--and it might have opened up the user to more of the teacher's ridicule.

Today, all of that wouldn't be the case, of course. If the incident I described occurred today, the teacher would have lost his job at the very least, and might be up on criminal charges. But the incident serves to show just how much attitudes have changed towards this sort of thing.

Now, if we could only change PE further, as SNenc suggested--do away with gym classes that favour the athletic (though I still vote for keeping the study of skills, as RickJay noted), and switch over to things everybody can do, as well as teach how to lead a healthy lifestyle.

[Mercutio]

Gym gives me my only chance to play sports. I am busy eitherwise. A little gym never killed anyone. If you dont play a sport in my class, you have to walk laps in the gym or outside depending on where the class is that day. Thats the only excercise kids get some days. I see nothing wrong with gym, just as long as kids aren't forced to do humiliating things, i.e. showers. Gym is fine. If some kids are humiliating other kids than they are jerks, but I hardly see it as the fault of the class.

[phouka]

Uh . . . Mercutio, it is the fault of the class if kids are humiliating one another. Or, more accurately, it is the fault of the teacher. It is the teacher's responsibility to create an environment where all students can learn and be successful. If the teacher allows that kind of verbal abuse and physical intimidation, then some number of children will be so busy trying to protect themselves, they'll close down to the learning process and disengage from the class. It is exactly that process that turns PE from it's purpose of creating fitness to a debacle that scares children away from the very concept. Perhaps if PE classes were taught better, then PE wouldn't be the only place students got exercise.

[SpartanDC]

Justwannano, I'm not sure what the argument is of your previous post, especially the extended basketball anecdote.

I wasn't asking to become an athletic hero in gym class. I wasn't asking to learn how to play basketball really well. But I could have at least been taught the proper way to shoot a basketball and some basic defensive positions.

And if you're saying I should practice outside of gym class, I don't see the point of that. Since I was involved in several other activities in high school that would later help me as an adult, praciticing for a gym class wasn't high on my priority list. Again, I was never asking to be an amazing athlete.

And if my heart and lungs can get a workout running or doing a variety of other things, why should I have to do those things in a basketball game that I was never taught how to play and that I'll be ignored in by those who do play on a regular basis?

Finally, justwannano, and I apologize if this is in a rude tone, please try to spell my screen name right. I've double-checked to make sure I got yours right.

[justwannano]

SNec
Sorry about the misspelling
My point is not very many know how to play basketball.
You are not alone.You are just verbal.
The anecdote was meant to point out that even the athletes do not know a lot about the game and even if they do it is usually just frustrating. You are not the only one that is frustrated.
Have you ever asked the coach to show you how to shoot?
He'll probably be surprised you don't know how. Also it would help if you have the strength to reach the rim with the ball.He has a bunch of guys that have some knowlege of basketball that take up his time. Show a little initative and maybe you'll be awarded with some knowlege.And who knows maybe if you take your time to show him maybe your son/daughter will be a basketball star.
First of all there has to be desire.
That is an inward thing.You must want to play more than anything. Thats the attitude those jocks have and that is what you have to contend with. Life ain't easy. You have to work at it.

[Guinastasia]

Why, pray tell, should the coach be surprised you don't know how to shoot a basket? That's like being suprised that a first grader doesn't know how to read when you start teaching him!

[epeepunk]

My experience with gym class is affected by the fact that I attended Quaker schools, where community and tolerance are expected.

My high school had required sports. There are several things that they do that make this work.
[list=1]
They happen after school, so there is less need to shower before returning to class - especially if you live on dorm (it is a boarding school)
There is a variety of sports available each term. Fall is soccer, cross-country, field-hockey. Winter is wrestling, basketball, swimming, volleyball. Spring is track, lacrosse, baseball, tennis. There is also dance, wieght-training, and theater set construction (really, that's what my sister did). This variety allows you to choose a sport you enjoy.
Not all sports are inter-scholastic, or are at several levels. Soccer has Varsity, Junior-Varsity, 3rd Association (mine) and 9th grade. There were several seniors on the 3rd Ass. team because we enjoyed soccer but couldn't play it at the varsity level.
The coaches are teachers, a requirement when you have this many sports at once. There are no full-time athletic coaches. I think that all teachers had to coach a sport, so in effect sports were required for all. And that helps the community thing too. I had one class with the baseball coach, and taking East Asian History from someone wearing a baseball uniform is amusing.
[/list=1]
I also agree with RickJay that there should be a class on fundementals. In 8th grade we did sample some of the sports, but not as intentionally.

[Polycarp]

Have you ever asked the coach to show you how to shoot?
He'll probably be surprised you don't know how. Also it would help if you have the strength to reach the rim with the ball.He has a bunch of guys that have some knowlege of basketball that take up his time. Show a little initative and maybe you'll be awarded with some knowlege.And who knows maybe if you take your time to show him maybe your son/daughter will be a basketball star.
First of all there has to be desire.
That is an inward thing.You must want to play more than anything. Thats the attitude those jocks have and that is what you have to contend with. Life ain't easy. You have to work at it.

A nice philosophy for anything that motivates one, []justwannano[/b]. However, there are some remarkable points being brought up in this thread that are worth looking at:

1. In "academic" classes, the teaching level is pitched at the median or mode of the class ability level, with those capable of more advanced work and those who lag behind it getting extra help outside strict instructional time (e.g., while the rest of the class is doing an exercise, after school, etc.). In phys. ed., the teaching level is pitched at the outstanding, and the others are made to feel inadequate for what they have not learned on their own.

2. Agreed that a student who doesn't know a fundamental skill of a sport could ask for extra help, why should he/she? It's the teacher's job to identify and offer such help. (And the skilled players can get some ego-boost by being assigned to coach the less skilled one-on-one -- your mark depends not on how many baskets you can shoot, but on how good you do at showing Clarence here how to do a free throw competently -- which teaches teamwork.)

3. Enthusiasm for anything should be encouraged. But why should every child be expected to work himself/herself up an enthusiasm for some sport? If you are an outstanding stamp collector, amateur astronomer, skateboarder, fellatrix, etc., you are not encouraged to follow that up in school, nor are all your fellow students expected to share your enthusiasm for your chosen field of excellence. Why should this be so for sports?

[Zumba The Cat]

Count me in as one of the people who hated gym class and got nothing out of it. I was always a small for my age and uncoordinated. Being a girl didn't help me get picked for teams either. We did learn a little bit about basic sports (basketball, softball and volleyball) in eight grade. For 3 memorable weeks the boys learned football and the girls learned how to jump rope (I am not kidding!)

In high school it was basically the same thing. We only had to take one year of gym and you got out of it for six weeks to take driver's ed. I don't remember even sweating in gym class once. It doesn't take much energy to play outfield or stand on the edge of a volley ball court.

I would rather see kids get some real exercise in gym class. Why not aerobics and yoga and weight lifting like some other posters mentioned? These are the things that I do as an adult to stay fit.

[L714]

Always found gym teachers to be a strange breed. They had little tolerance for those of us who were in my schools arts program. We weren't sports people, not interested in *chasing the ball* and not particulary competitive. After much complaining from parents, the school set up dance as an option.

As for showers, I've never been in a school that had them. After gym we all reeked of spray deodorant or patchouli oil. I find it kinda weird to force kids into community showering. But as I said ... gym people are a strange breed in my opinion.

[amarinth]

Another "In theory yes, In practice no" answer.

In my school the first year of PE was supposedly like RickJay's class. We did have to learn (and were tested on) the rules of the sport. We supposedly picked up basic skills - but most instruction consisted of "you just throw it" followed by "throw it again until you get it right." Change the verb depending on which sport we were talking about. Then, of course, the instructor graded on a true curve (the only true curve I was ever subject to) - so the top athlete got an A, the next best or so got B's, most of us got C's, and the worst (despite effort and/or improvement) got D's and F's.

((I hated that class, usually I lucked out due to random flashes of ability (for example, for some reason, I could punt footballs really really well. So even though my throwing was erratic, and catching was even more so - the kicking saved my grade) on the other hand, I still have no idea how on earth someone can hit a tennis ball with a tennis racket in such a way that the ball goes over the net AND stays inside the general tennis playing area.))

On the other side, when I was in elementary - I had a teacher who loved sports, loved playing sports, and loved having his students play sports. Generally, when it came time to pick teams, the captains only got two or three picks - and the rest of us were split up at random, so no one ever had to be the last one picked. And twice a year, every year, he made (and as a consequence, everyone else made) a huge deal of the "Sportsmanship Award" for the person who had tried hardest, encouraged others, had the best attitude, etc. A lot of other things like that made being an uncoordinated klutz not quite so bad - and even though I didn't love PE, I never hated it, then.

[justwannano]

amarith

I still have no idea how on earth someone can hit a tennis ball with a tennis racket in such a way that the ball goes over the net AND stays inside the general tennis playing area.))


Amen,Brother/sister

I couldn't hit that sucker either.
And my golf balls still don't go straight.

Perhaps it is the school systems fault rather than the coaches that so much emphasis is spent on football,baseball basketball.
That gym is made to play basketball in. the best use of it is basketball.
You can play 20 people at a time if you play 1/2 court. with another XX waiting to play. and the rest of the class doesn't care because they just skip class or are always trying to get out of it.
I can already hear the "But ifs". A coach like everyone gets numb to the excuses. IF you want to play you will be there ready to play.

[New & Improved Scott]

You guys had tennis rackets?

My school was so small and poor, we had to stick to the bacics. Basketball, indoor soccer, volleyball, track. Thats it, Running shoes, a ball and sometimes a net was all we had.

[bdgr]

Originally posted by justwannano

As far as showers go why should you be ashamed of your body? You'll get over the embarrasment. If you are grotesquely obese as someone mentioned maybe you should begin getting serious about doing something about it.




well, first of all, some people hit puberty later then others, even into early high school. Kids are not all that understanding about such things. Luckily where I went to school, the showers were never used, so I never even thought about it, but I have talked to people who had to endure that sort of thing, and have heard horrors stories.

Personally, my experiances with PE were on the most part pretty bad. Even though I wanted to be good at sports, and worked at it constantly after school, I pretty much sucked at sports in general. I was much taller than the other kids in school, but I still wasn't any good at it.

Then things got worse. In high school I was put in a class almost completely filled by seniors. Senior jocks, and me a freshman. I was constantly getting knocked around, things thrown at me, beaten etc. I went to the teacher, who spent all his time reading the paper inside the building, while all the kids were outside, and he did nothing. My parents went to the principle, who talked to the coach, who did nothing again. My parents had enough, and decided that it was a danger to my health to get assaulted everyday in school, and my doctor agreed with them. He wrote me a note every year excusing me from PE until I was a senior. After that, I didnt have a problem. After that experiance, I deveoloped an extreme dislike for sports, jocks, and PE teachers. If my sons winds up in a similar situation, I will probably wont be as nice as my parents were. I don't think I have really got into a football game since Stabauch stopped playing, and the last baseball player I knew anything about was Gaylord Perry.

PE if done right, could be benificial, but to most people I know it was just another thing to endure.

[justwannano]

New and Improved Scott said
You guys had tennis rackets?
No remember I said I was the first graduating class. In football WE were our only tackeling dummies.We basicly had nothing.Hell I remember going to the closet where the basketballs were kept and everyone of them were flat.

bdgr said
"well, first of all, some people hit puberty later then others, even into early high school. Kids are not all that understanding about such things"

Thats my point.Everyone went through that. There were two kids that were in my class that were one and two years older than the rest of us. They started school with everyone else so we didn't know.


bdgr said
PE if done right, could be benificial, but to most people I know it was just another thing to endure.

justwannano said
World Lit class,if done right, could be benificial, but to most people I know it was just another thing to endure.

Tuff world out there Huh

[bdgr]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by justwannano
[B]

bdgr said
"well, first of all, some people hit puberty later then others, even into early high school. Kids are not all that understanding about such things"

Thats my point.Everyone went through that. There were two kids that were in my class that were one and two years older than the rest of us. They started school with everyone else so we didn't know.


Well, you said
As far as showers go why should you be ashamed of your body? You'll get over the embarrasment. If you are grotesquely obese as someone mentioned maybe you should begin getting serious about doing something about it.

My point was about what you said about the shower situation, you put a kid in the shower that has not gone through puberty, with a bunch of students who have, and and that kid is going to go through hell, both in gym class and out. They aren't going to just "get over the embarrasment". You don't put them in that situation, they don't have to go through that. The schools in my area were smart enough to figure that one out.

bdgr said
PE if done right, could be benificial, but to most people I know it was just another thing to endure.

justwannano said
World Lit class,if done right, could be benificial, but to most people I know it was just another thing to endure.

Tuff world out there Huh

Yeh, but the object is to make it less of one.

[justwannano]

bdgr
you said


My point was about what you said about the shower situation, you put a kid in the shower that has not gone through puberty, with a bunch of students who have, and and that kid is going to go through hell, both in gym class and out. They aren't going to just "get over the embarrasment". You don't put them in that situation, they don't have to go through that. The schools in my area were smart enough to figure that one out.

Not so.
One of the latest ahm shall we say bloomers in my class was one of the smartest and one of the most popular with the ladies.

[kirsten]

I hated gym class. I hated it so much that I wouldn't even buy Anne Murray records because I read that she had once been a gym teacher. The usual story; small, younger than everyone, extremely uncoordinated and clumsy. I thought it absurd that I could easily get an A+ in English class but the kids who couldn't write poetry got graded on it anyway; meanwhile I couldn't hit any sort of a ball but got graded on it anyway, while talented athletes got the A's. Gym class should never be graded.
I loathed fitness, and I never saw the inside of a gym again until I was fifty. I still despise sports, but at least I am willing to exercise my own body. Incidentally, I learned nothing whatever about the rules of sports, so I ended up despising those who WATCH sports too, since I couldn't understand what the point was. When I read George Plimpton's "Paper Lion" I began to watch football for the first time, after forty years of loathing.
That's what gym class does to the untalented.

[Gambit]

I'm going to try and be polite when responding to this--as someone with his own ideas of what education should be, gym is a hotter topic with me--but forgive me if I lean toward almost becoming vulgar.

Gym is a damned joke as a class. It teaches nothing of any real substance that a kid can't learn in a playground with their peers, an equally competetive environment, but one that is certainly less judgemental. Of the five or so gym teachers I had to endure during my early education, only one of them was sane--and he had the common sense to recognize that not every child needs or wants to participate in organized sports, and the common sense to leave me alone. This nonsense that educational systems try to propose about gym fostering a sense of self-confidence is also a sham. About the only good that comes of gym is that teachers have a sixty minute block to prepare for other classes, which some will do if they're worth their titles.

If gym in early education is bad, imagine having to take a damned gym course to complete your Bachelor's degree. I run a 4.0 GPA as an undergrad, am on a track that will let me complete my Doctorate in two years, and I find out that I have to take a freaking GYM course before I can begin grad studies! (It's more than insulting. The system is saying, "Never mind that you're intelligent. You have to endure an idiot in a sweatsuit for five months before you can get anywhere in life.")My bottom line beef is this--not everyone is a damned athlete, and it's high time that the antiquated educational system we've adopted in this country do away with this ridiculous notion completely. Gym is fine as a course if you get something out of it, but to assume that everyone will attain some universal sense of "self-confidence" because a few have in the past is just plain wrong.

Let me also put in a good word for poor Jeff, who was the subject of the opening thread. Not every kid is the model of a perfect physical form--in Jeff's case, his experience in the shower will likely effect him for the rest of his life. Could he have told the teacher what his condition was? Certainly. Should he have been made to endure that in the first place? Not at all.

[SpartanDC]

Justwannano said:

World Lit class,if done right, could be benificial, but to most people I know it was just another thing to endure.

True, but the question is: Endure what? People are complaining about gym class not because we simply didn't like it. We're complaining because it doesn't teach you anything and opens unathletic kids up to ridicule and humiliation.

No one gets insulted in World Lit, mostly because the kids who do well are the least likely to insult people, either because they're non-violent or scared of getting beaten up. World Lit might be a pain in the ass for some kids, but you never hear of kids dreading it each day and getting knots in their stomach before it. And, of course, most World Lit classes teach you about World Literature.

But gym is different. Kids who are not athletically gifted are torn apart by their classmates, sometimes even by teachers. Some meaner kids just see it as a chance to beat up the smart kids. And most importantly, the way most gym classes are structured does not provide an equal learning opportunity for all involved.

[Ben]

Originally posted by Caliban
Hell, they would sometimes get into arguments over which team would have to take me: "We got him last time, dammit you take him!" Then the coach would have to assign me, and I'd meet with groans of disappointment or outright threats: "You better not fuck up this time, loser!"

Isn't it funny that the coach never let guys like you and me pick the teams? In Jeezoid High, it was always 2 of the same 3 or 4 bullies whom he allowed to pick.


The coach was no help either. He was a laissez-faire coach. He'd stand there with his thumb up his ass staring at the clouds while we "settled our own disputes". Gym was a nightmare for me and about ten other "losers" who couldn't catch a ball or kick a goal. At least we didn't have to take showers.

Sheesh... I think that if we had had to take showers, I would have been sexually assaulted by the guys who picked the teams. Anyway, at least your coach didn't laugh at you. My perverse fantasy is to track down my old coach and send him a letter:

Dear Coach,

remember how you laughed at me in front of the class because I couldn't do a single situp? Well, now I can do several of them in a row.

Incidentally, can you find the area under a curve yet? No? Ha!


-Ben

[Ben]

Originally posted by ticker
P.E. (as we brits tend to call it, or Games) is a bit like English Lit. If E.Lit is taught badly it can turn people off reading good books. Gym done badly it can reinforce a negative image and lead to kids avoiding physical exercise.

I would have to agree with this. If it weren't for gym class I probably would have taken karate a lot earlier, both because I would have had a less negative opinion of sports, and because I would have had an extra hour each day for it.

-Ben

[bdgr]

Originally posted by justwannano
bdgr
you said


My point was about what you said about the shower situation, you put a kid in the shower that has not gone through puberty, with a bunch of students who have, and and that kid is going to go through hell, both in gym class and out. They aren't going to just "get over the embarrasment". You don't put them in that situation, they don't have to go through that. The schools in my area were smart enough to figure that one out.

Not so.
One of the latest ahm shall we say bloomers in my class was one of the smartest and one of the most popular with the ladies.



The school I came from, being one of the smartest was deffinately not a social plus. Anyway, it has nothing to do with what I am talking about.

[Grok]

I am a male elementary Physical Education teacher, and have read the posts on this thread with much interest.

First let me say I am always sad to hear the horror stories most people have about PE. Even I have a few because the fact is, you're right - lots of the teachers do stink. I became a PE teacher because my background is a bit different than the jock types that normally come to mind when you think of a PE teacher. So here are a few thoughts on the subject in general:

1. Yes, PE should be taught in schools. Kids are more overweight now than ever in our nation's history. We also have a great temptation into sedentary lifestyles (fer cryin' out loud I'm a PE teacher and am I out exercising - no I'm typing on a computer!!!!). It's important that people understand that exercise = greater chance of living a healthy and active lifestyle.

2. Yes, serious fundamental changes should be made in PE. I teach only at the elementary level, and will not work above 5th grade (except for coaching, which is another matter entirely - more on that later). I feel the way we teach PE in the secondary level is beyond flawed in most cases - it's a catastrophe, and accounts for most of the horror stories I hear. Think about that - not many people have horror stories about elementary PE. That's because our approach down there is to introduce kids to a variety of activities and skills, and emphasize enjoyment of them.

3. The showering thing isn't around much anymore. Thank God.

4. Dress cuts. Yes, that's still around and there are actually some good reasons for it. When you go to math class you need to bring your textbook, a pencil, notebook, maybe even a protractor or scientific calculator. Well PE is a class too, (stop snickering)so you may need to come with some materials. Sneakers and clothes appropriate to physical activity aren't too much to ask. And I don't think I need to mention the possibility of lawsuit from kids attempting to run around in dress shoes and such.

5. We should phase out team sports in favor of "life time activities". Lots of controversy on this one, even within my profession. I'm something of a radical in that I don't believe team sports has much place in a PE curriculum. I agree with some of the posts that said it simply favors jocks and such. I'd rather see kids learning swimming, rock climbing, biking, roller blading, juggling, golf, and other such actitivies that are now being taught in some of the more forward thinking school districts. The college level has already moved toward this area. Team sports have their place in after-school activities, of which I'm a coach (volleyball, track & field). But I don't think people should be made to play them, apart from learning basic skills. Also, they waste a lot of time. Think about this - in a game of "real" 6-on-6 volleyball (more like 9 against 9 because of overcrowded classes, how many times are you likely to touch the ball in a 15 minute game? Not a lot, and that means it's a waste of time. No learning opportunities.

I could go on, but I think I've made my point. I am saddened by the lack of change in my field, and only remain in the hopes of being allowed to continue doing things a little differently. Feel free to contact me to talk more on this subject.

[The Flying Dutchman]

Boy does this bring back memories of high school in the mid sixties. I loved PE. I hated high school. I didn't have the best social skills, but I could hold my own in sports. Some of us showered, some didn't. I was embarrassed at first, but my dad said get over it, be a man. Hell, he told me when he was in the army they openly sat next to each other while shitting. So I did, and it was no big deal. The biggest problem of course was not getting caught looking at someone else's dick.

Then one day in grade 9 a commotion arose in the far corner of the dressing room. Several guys had removed Grants underwear. "Look at the size of his cock" someone gleefully exclaimed. Its a f...ing horsecock. Sure enough it was the biggest limp penis I had or have ever seen in my life. Now Grant was struggling and angry, but clearly embarrassed. I don't think he nor me nor many of us in the room realized how truly fortunate he was or how proud he could be.

[justwannano]

I wasn't going to comment further but I just can't let gambits "problem " go by without commenting.
A 4.0 in and you are afraid of a gym class??
It will take a while but you will see what keeping in shape is about when you are 50. You will probably be surprised to know that most of the jobs in the world require some kind of physical work. Gym class,PE or whatever you call it is all about fitness.

I don't know how many times I've heard "If you've got your health you've got everything".I'm more and more convinced it is true.

I used to like to read until I had a few teachers try to teach me an "appreciation "of literature. I still can't figure what Will Shakespear is talking about. I remember getting in trouble in jr high lit because I wasn't paying attention. Hell I was four stories ahead of everyone else and she wanted me to slow down and"pay attention."

My point is the same thing goes on in other classes but if you are good at them you don't mind the hassles.

I've done just fine without billy shakespear but without some kind of physical conditioning I know I wouldn't be as healthy as I am today.

[anya marie]

I was the girl who was picked last, I was the chubby kid without cooordination, and i would have killed for a gym class like RickJay's back in the day !!

Some of the things that come to my mind that made me loathe gym class...

In elementary school, being singled out for playing
dodgeball and told to go and cheerlead with the rest of the girls.
Never mind that I had about as much enthusiasm for cheer as as i had for washing dishes, and may actually have been good at dodgeball. "Anya, get out of here and go cheer with the other girls!" I still hate that guy even if he is dead now, the goat-felching sonofabitch!!!

Gymnastics---- Thanks for pointing out that while i am still having trouble with my somersaults, what all the other kids can do. You are the reason why I loathe exercise now, and I do hope you are HAPPY with YOURSELF!!

Square dance-- Anybody who teaches this to children should be shot. First for not teaching us a dance we can use later in life and, second for not having the forethought to assign partners, and leaving us to choose our own partner.
Freshman year-- What in the nameof ZEUS'S BUTTHOLE makes you think that teenagers want to learn square dancing?
How many teenagers actually use this even though it was a small rural school? While all of us were listening to rap, dance, or metal, you had your heart set on us being experts at the Virginia Reel.
Polka? Proof positive that you had lost the last few brain cells you owned. Especially when you made people go out and polka several times, as if we were going to merrily polka on for the rest of the class.

Volleyball-- Junior high, for not teaching the sport very well and not helping me with my serve.
10th grade-for placing me on the team which got slaughtered every time and for taking the only good server off of our team, thanks buddy for making it easier to lose, thanks for assuming that we would not want to win.

Football- For assuming everyone knows the rules, and for not teaching us how to throw the football.


Now I know why i love soccer. Because the other teacher taught much better that you ever could hope to.

[Gambit]

Justwannano--I completely agree with you when you say that physical health is important. I just don't necessarily agree with the idea that all physical activity has to take place in an organized, team-oriented setting. I've devised a routine where I walk at least two miles daily, and take stairs rather than elevators, often walking as many as twenty one flights a day. I will on occasion lift weights.

What strikes me as genuinely absurd is why a college would have a physical education requirement at all. I keep MYSELF in fairly good shape without having to do it all the time. Here's another thing that puzzles me. How can one adequately "grade" a gym course? If I can't for example throw a football, or have no interest in doing push-ups, should that really be counted in my GPA? Should I have to worry that failing my gym course will put me a semester behind in graduate studies? I might be wrong, but getting my Ph.D is just slightly more important in the long run than participating in something I do on my own time, with my own standards.

[Guinastasia]

I remember when gym class WAS fun. Prior to fourth grade. Scooters, hopscotch, relay races, that sort of thing. It was fun, then.

[zwaldd]

i agree with grok that p.e. has the potential for value but would require some tweaking first. i participated in many physical activities as a kid - baseball, soccer, basketball, tennis, skiing, you name it. as an adult i continue to enjoy as many sports and activities as time and weather permit. i can honestly say that the pitiful excuse for sports participation that my p.e. classes provided was pretty worthless in comparison to the activities i did outside of school and had zero bearing on my desire to be active as an adult. i remember classes that consisted entirely of sitting around on the floor while the teachers tried to organize some activity that never got off the ground. i think what our ever-fattening country needs is not p.e. classes, but parents who encourage their kids to be active and not let them spend hours in front of the tv or the playstation. parents need to make time to play sports with their kids and take them on active/adventure type trips where there are no tv's or computers.

[DeskMonkey]

Man, this thread is making me want to curl up into a fetal position. Oh, how I hated gym class. Throughout grammar school and Jr. High, whenever gym day came, I would stand at the top of the stairs at my house at think about throwing myself down them so I could get out of it. I was serious too. I would hold the railing and rock back and forth, but I never had the guts to let go. I always hoped I would just slip and fall. I was simply overjoyed that I had to have an operation in 4th grade because I didn't have to go to gym for 2 whole weeks. Bliss.

I was the textbook example of shy chubby kid who was always picked last. I still remember somehow being the last person on my team in dodgeball one time. I was terrified, hiding behind the lunch tables that had been stacked against the wall because I knew I was going to get pelted and the gym teacher didn't care. From then on, I tried to catch the ball early in the game so I could be out. I had to square dance ALONE. No partner. How a "teacher" could allow a kid to do-si-do by herself is beyond me. High school was no better, but I learned to just be invisible in class. I never caught a ball or made a home run, I was too scared to try. The only time I ever enjoyed gym was for a couple of weeks when we did archery. Lo and behold, there was something I could actually do. For the first time, I really wanted to participate. But of course, we went back to volleyball or something.

The point is, I was in desperate need of activity and social interaction, but all that gym taught me was that yes, indeed, I was a loser and a nerd. Kids just aren't very nice when left to their own devices and most gym teachers let them talk all the trash they wanted. Hopefully it's changed since then, but to me, it was a chance for mean-spirited little brats to pick on quiet, unathletic kids for an hour a day.

Man I hated gym.

[DeskMonkey]

Oh, and my answer is "No, I don't think it should be required." But if offered, there should be better supervision of students and better qualified gym teachers who understand how scary it can be for some kids. (They should have to read Lord of the Flies at least three times.)

Perhaps there should be different types of gym classes. One that focuses more on competetive sports and one that focuses more on non-competetive ones, something where the entire class is working together rather than against each other. (team-building excercises, aerobics, jogging . . .)

[The Flying Dutchman]

Originally posted by DeskMonkey
Oh, and my answer is "No, I don't think it should be required." But if offered, there should be better supervision of students and better qualified gym teachers who understand how scary it can be for some kids. (They should have to read Lord of the Flies at least three times.)


I've always wondered why the gym teacher completely avoids going in to the dressing room when every one is changing back. A lot of rough horseplay occured then, but the teacher always retired to his office.

Many posters mention being shy and the last person picked etc. resulting in hatred of P.E. My recollection is of the guys who spent their time souping up their 57 chevies by getting their cylinders bored out etc. (in other words the tough crowd like perhaps Travolta in Grease) who made a deliberate show of hating P.E. by a lack of cooperation on the court and getting into trouble for leaving their gym bag at home a lot of times.

[justwannano]

Hey Gambit
Why don't you just find a friendly jock and ask him/her to show you how to do the things you don't know how to do?
Maybe you could help him/her with some other academic stuff.

[Guinastasia]

Perhaps because not all of them are likely to help.

[justwannano]

guin
Perhaps because not all of them are likely to help.

So what. Welcome to the world. Find someone that will help.