dachshunds vs. badgers?

[pluto]

Don't get me wrong! Like most dachshund owners I love the little rascals and I wouldn't trade them for the world, but...

Did anyone ever really pit dachshunds against badgers? I know the name means "badger dog" and every history of the breed states that they were bred to hunt badgers but just because an idea is widespread doesn't mean it's right!

My limited knowledge of badgers is that they are mean, ferocious, vicious and generally nasty. They easily outweigh a small dog and have sharp teeth and claws, a nasty disposition and loose skin to foil predators. My personal experience with dachshunds is that they are courageous ("to the point of recklessness"), tenacious and great diggers, but any contest between a badger and my two dogs would end very quickly with a score of Badger 2, Dachshunds 0.

Two possibilities spring to mind: 1) The modern breed is the "wimped down" version, with most of the ferocity, strength, etc. bred out so they are better companions than hunters; or 2) When hunting badgers they didn't really engage in battle but were just used to find them, lure them and/or dig them out and then leave the killing to the guy with the gun.

Can anyone give me the straight dope? My personal guess is that they were more often used to hunt smaller mustelids, like weasels or ferrets, and badger hunting is a slight exaggeration. (Who would want a "weasel dog"?)

BTW, this question arose from watching some nature show which showed a wolf tangling with a badger. The wolf retreated.


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"non sunt multiplicanda entia praeter necessitatem"

[DougC]

- - - I don't specifically know about Dachsunds, but I think if a wolf couldn't easily manage a badger, then your beloved doggie would become your dearly departed doggie. (no offense)
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- - - Along the same lines could be releasing doves for falconry, and using ferrets to hunt rabbits (both of these seem to be European endeavors mostly). - MC

[ChiefScott]

"O.K. I want you to get me a badger. A real mean one. One that'll kick a wolf's ass.
Pluto's already got the dachsund.
Now, get me some chain link fence. Oh, 'bout 20 feet or so.
Whaddaya think? Five, ten bucks a ticket?
He wants facts? We'll give 'im facts!"

-- Nickrz plans the office picnic.

[Undead Dude]

2) When hunting badgers they didn't really engage in battle but were just used to find them, lure them and/or dig them out and then leave the killing to the guy with the gun. -- pluto
Isn't this the general role of a hunting dog? Retrievers don't actually catch the birds. Bloodhounds don't actually catch the foxes. I would have assumed this role rather than thinking that they were actually used to kill.

[Capt. Spaulding]

Dachsunds are palatable with baked cinammon apples and a side of sauerkraut, but badger with bernaise is a far superior dish.

[tanstaafl]

I found this at
http://www.petcrest.com/dachshi.html



The very name of this loyal breed signifies its purpose ("dachs" meaning badger and "hund" meaning dog.) The Dachshund was bred to hunt and draw the badger, a formidable twenty to forty-pound vicious adversary. This dog possesses confidence and courage bordering on recklessness. He is well-suited physically and temperamentally to pursue his prey above the ground and also under the ground.


From the phrase "hunt and draw the badger" I am assuming that the dachshund was used to flush the badger out to where the hunter could get it as opposed to the dachshund attacking the badger itself.

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"You can't run away forever; but there's nothing wrong with getting a good head start." --- Jim Steinman

Dennis Matheson --- Dennis@mountaindiver.com
Hike, Dive, Ski, Climb --- www.mountaindiver.com (http://www.mountaindiver.com)

[Jophiel]

I would still doubt it would flush a badger. Badgers, at least European ones (and I'm assuming the dachshund got its skills in Europe) live in extensive tunnel systems known as setts. Some setts can be hundreds of years old and inhabited by generation after generation of extended badger families. My point being, we're not talking about a simple tunnel here, but an entire underground lair with multiple badgers living in it and ample wide spaces to turn and make a good fight. I'm putting my money the badger.

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"I guess it is possible for one person to make a difference, although most of the time they probably shouldn't."

[Stephen]

I would still doubt it would flush a badger. Badgers, at least European ones (and I'm assuming the dachshund got its skills in Europe) live in extensive tunnel systems known as setts. Some setts can be hundreds of years old and inhabited by generation after generation of extended badger families. My point being, we're not talking about a simple tunnel here, but an entire underground lair with multiple badgers living in it and ample wide spaces to turn and make a good fight. I'm putting my money the badger.

You're assuming that the badger would retreat into its tunnel and let the hounds dig at the opening unmolested. Badgers got much of their reputation for their tendency to scrap it out. I can easily imagine a handful of daschunds riling a badger to the point he moves just far enough out of the hole to get a clear shot.

Personally, I marvel at the cajones basenji show in the workplace.

[According to Pliny]

I can't find my German/English dictionary, right now, but are we sure that "dachs" literally translates to "badger" and isn't in fact a word that describes any large rodent?

[Undead Dude]

I plugged "badger" into Babelfish English -> German

The result ::drumroll::

dachs

[astorian]

I have no definitive answer to this question. I merely offer a question:

Is it possible that the name "dachshund" ("badger hound") does not mean that the dogs were useful in HUNTING badgers, so much as it means they had the attributes of badgers (Good at tunnelling, surly disposition)?

[Stephen]

Um, no. Go back to tanstaafl's post and read the quote.

[Stephen]

Um, no. Go back to tanstaafl's post and read the quote.

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Stephen
Stephen's Website (http://stephen.fathom.org)
Satellite Hunting 1.1.0 visible satellite pass prediction
shareware available for download at
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[Jophiel]

You're assuming that the badger would retreat into its tunnel and let the hounds dig at the opening unmolested.Actually, I was assuming that you'd find a sett and send the dog down there to go get you a badger. Badgers are big beasties so I figured the dog could get down there without digging. At which point, it's one dog against numerous badgers on (or in, rather) the badgers' home turf.

'Course, why anyone would want to catch a badger is beyond me. You can't eat it, it smells bad and I don't think the pelt is overly attractive. But I guess someone gets a kick out of hunting badgers.

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"I guess it is possible for one person to make a difference, although most of the time they probably shouldn't."

[moriah]

"Two million quatloos on the badger!"

[Temujin]

As long as Ron Dayne stays healthy, I'll bet on the Badgers.

[Mac]

While I was stationed in England, I remember seeing a documentary on BBC1 about badger hunting. What they showed was a small pack (four or five) of dogs were sent down a hole. The dogs would corner the badger and while doing so make a lot noise. The hunters would then start digging until the badger popped out of the hole they dug and BANG! Why they were hunting it, I don't know. I think it was considered a pest by the people hunting it.
As for what type of dogs I don't remember seeing any Dachshunds it was a mixed pack and the narrator called them terriers.
By the way mine tends to look a little overweight is that normal?

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The american people are very generous people and will forgive almost any weakness, with the possible exception of stupidity.---Will Rogers

[Northern Piper]

Mac,

put your dachsie on a diet! one of my heartbreaks growing up was when we had to put our dachsie down because he was so overweight, his back gave out, paralyzing the hind-quarters.

if the dachsie looks like a sausage, it's overweight. there should be a definite hour-glass shape: broad chest, narrow middle, broader hindquarters.

[According to Pliny]

I've got the answer!

According to this site, http://planetpets.simplenet.com/dachshnd.htm
the original dachshund weighed in at about 30-40 lbs instead of the 10 lbs that is common today. At the time the badger-dog got its name it was in the same weight class as the badger. Since nobody has really had any real need (or desire) to hunt badgers in about 500 years, the dachshund has been bred to better suit its modern role as a freakish looking lap dog.

[Mac]

Yep he is on a diet. We inherited him from my wife's uncle when he died. He was an overweight, alchoholic, weiner dog named Muffin. Talk about self esteem problems.
Had him on a diet and exercise program ( 7 yr old daughter ) for about two months. Now he has a waist and lots more energy.

[pluto]

I sense that no one here thinks a dachshund would ever really take on a badger. That's what I thought. I think the designation as a "badger dog" is more romantic than scholarly, and the whole badger hunting scenario is a 19th century UL. If anyone has any definitive evidence to the contrary, please let me know.

In the mean time I'll continue to let our dogs relive their heritage by chasing squirrels, which is good exercise and harmless to the squirrels because they will never in a million years catch one. But being dachshunds (German for "I never learn dog") they will never give up trying!

Pluto

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"non sunt multiplicanda entia praeter necessitatem"
-- William of Ockham

[Big Iron]

Fun factoid: the term "hot dog" is derived from that treat's former name -- dachshund sausages. Vienna, of course, is the source of the term "weiner," and frankfurter, well, you get the picture.

Which reminds me to start a thread on a related topic ...

[Temujin]

Badgers killed Murray State, of course. Go Badgers!

[Akatsukami]

Jophiel questions:'Course, why anyone would want to catch a badger is beyond me.
The fur makes excellent shaving brushes, and pretty good artists' brushes.


I'm not familiar with the way in which badgers dig setts; however, if they are anything like prairie dog towns, the way in which they would be discovered is by the local baron having his horse step in one whilst we was ridng across the fields. Assuming that he survived the experience, his next move would have been to go out and buy a pack of dachshunds.

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"Kings die, and leave their crowns to their sons. Shmuel HaKatan took all the treasures in the world, and went away."

[Bluepony]

My money's on the weinerdogs, only if they can be trained to use hand grenades.

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"...send lawyers, guns, and money..."

Warren Zevon

[TheoremHead]

The terriers that Mac was referring to were probably Wheaten Terriers. They are about 30-40 lbs and were bred for 'badgering'.

[Big Iron]

[[According to this site, http://planetpets.simplenet.com/dachshnd.htm
the original dachshund weighed in at about 30-40 lbs instead of the 10 lbs that is common today. At the time the badger-dog got its name it was in the same weight class as the badger. Since nobody has really had any real need (or desire) to hunt badgers in about 500 years, the dachshund has been bred to better suit its modern role as a freakish looking lap dog.]] Papabear


Hmmm ... my recollection was that the breed was divided into "standard" (25-35 lbs) and miniature. I just figgered that, for either aesthetic or medical reasons, the miniature ones had greatly eclipsed the standards in popularity. I suppose the standard/miniature distinction is a bit artificial, though, from a biological perspective.

My grandfather definitely had one of the larger varieties, however -- that pooch had to weigh at least 25 pounds. His ultimate replacement was less than half his size.

[Mac]

Yep the winer dogs come in two sizes and three flavors toy and standard / long,short and wire hair. The toys run about 10 lbs. and the standard about 25 lbs. Mine weighed in at 22.5 lbs last week ( he still looks fat )

[DWestphal]

Found these interesting photos: LINK (http://terriermandotcom.blogspot.com/2006/01/german-raccoon-dog-badger-and-raccoon.html)

[kenobi 65]

Look! Zombie badgers!

(Seriously...DWestphal, you're new here, but did you note that you resurrected a 13-year-old thread to post that?)

[Mangetout]

Look at the caption of the second photo. Tell me the first word that enters your mind...

[mbh]

Goose!

[JBDivmstr]

Look! Zombie badgers!

(Seriously...DWestphal, you're new here, but did you note that you resurrected a 13-year-old thread to post that?)

Hey, you gotta at least give DWestphal credit for providing the most definitive answer to the OP's question.

Up until DWs post, every answer in the thread was based on what somebody read or heard about, somewhere. ;)

And just in case nobody else has yet...

Welcome to the Straight Dope DWestphal, good to have you aboard. Enjoy the ride! :D

[Bozuit]

Wikipedia seems to be pretty certain on the fact that dachshunds were bred to hunt badgers. Pet dogs might not have a reputation for being vicious but I don't see any reason why a dog of similar size to badger should lose a fight so easily. Let's not forget that dogs are still canis lupus (a wolf) and while they might be bred to be friendly now, hunting dogs were not pets and were bred specifically to fight. The same can't be said for badgers. Also, although badgers have a reputation for fierceness, do they really fight any battle that comes to them, or would they prefer to retreat? If a dog comes into their sett are we sure they wouldn't prefer to turn around and leave by another exit? A strange-smelling, barking animal invading your home must be a little weird.

If you want an unfair fight, have you ever seen a bulldog?

Edit: somehow I didn't notice the age of this thread....

[Ludovic]

Look at the caption of the second photo. Tell me the first word that enters your mind...ZOMBIE! Ahhhh, it's a zombie!

[hibernicus]

Also, although badgers have a reputation for fierceness, do they really fight any battle that comes to them, or would they prefer to retreat?

Anecdotally, I can say they prefer to retreat. My little dog (a 10 kg Spitz) met a badger one day. The badger ran away with my dog in pursuit.

[Filbert]

I think a lot of the point here is that European badgers really are not known for being aggressive to the same degree as American badgers.

They just ain't that similar, and the dogs were bred in Europe.

European badgers, though they will sometimes fight back, will generally just leg it from attackers. They also don't hunt anything much bigger than a frog. Badger baiting with dogs was common in the UK at least- and is still occasionally reported, despite being banned for decades.

[Yllaria]

Hey, you gotta at least give DWestphal credit for providing the most definitive answer to the OP's question.. . . :D

Yep. That pretty much nailed it. It's good to have a final answer even if it took longer than we thought.

[Bozuit]

I think a lot of the point here is that European badgers really are not known for being aggressive to the same degree as American badgers..

Good point. I've seen captive European badgers (in a kind of zoo) and the person who feeds them was easily able to pick them up in a demonstration. Members of the public could even touch the more docile ones (I think it was mostly the males). They were fairly tame (although by no means pets) but they seemed way too cuddly to be such ferocious beasts in the wild.

Wikipedia says:

Although ferocious when provoked, a trait which was once exploited for the blood sport of badger-baiting, the European badger is generally a peaceful animal, having been known to share its burrows with other species such as rabbits, red foxes and raccoon dogs.

[astro]

ZOMBIE! Ahhhh, it's a zombie!

And what a zombie circa 1999! Threads hunted with clubs back then.

[kenobi 65]

Good point. I've seen captive European badgers (in a kind of zoo) and the person who feeds them was easily able to pick them up in a demonstration. Members of the public could even touch the more docile ones (I think it was mostly the males). They were fairly tame (although by no means pets) but they seemed way too cuddly to be such ferocious beasts in the wild.


Up until a few years ago, I didn't even know that there *was* such a thing as a European badger. Then, one day, my wife was watching a program on Animal Planet, about a European family which had several badgers living with them in the house. I boggled -- "they live with *badgers*?? Are they crazy??" Then, I did a little research...not the same animal, or the same disposition. :D

[Slithy Tove]

Zombie badger don't give a shit.

[tanstaafl]

Look at the caption of the second photo. Tell me the first word that enters your mind...
Mushroom?