Greatest American elimination game (game thread)

[MsWhatsit]

Well, at least the Wrights made it to the top 10.


New vote:

I'm sticking with Washington.

I'm changing my vote.

New vote:

Susan B. Anthony

[StusBlues]

Please change my vote from MLK to Thomas Edison.

[Gyrate]

Oooooh...dramatic tension!

[Tom Scud]

We appear to have another tie

Edison 4
Anthony 4
Douglass 2
Roosevelt (T) 1

[Elendil's Heir]

I will again break the tie. Edison was a jerk; Anthony wasn't. There are other men still on the list, but no other women. Edison has never been on a U.S. coin; Anthony has. Edison is now gone. That leaves:

Susan B. Anthony: Suffrage activist
Frederick Douglass: Abolitionist, orator
Benjamin Franklin: Scientist, statesman, inventor
Martin Luther King Jr.: Preacher, orator, humanitarian
Abraham Lincoln: President, emancipator, writer
Franklin D. Roosevelt: President, reformer, statesman
Theodore Roosevelt: President, conservationist, statesman
George Washington: President, general, statesman

Still one vote each, with one person eliminated each round. The current round will end at noon EST on Weds. March 17.

[StusBlues]

King.

[Tom Scud]

T Roosevelt

[faithfool]

Frederick Douglass

[Sternvogel]

Frederick Douglass

By the way, Edison has appeared on a U.S. coin (http://www.usmint.gov/mint_programs/commemoratives/index.cfm?action=edison), albeit a commemorative silver dollar not released into circulation.

[What Exit?]

Frederick Douglass

[MsWhatsit]

Douglass.

[Justin Credible]

MLK

[Gyrate]

Martin Luther King Jr.

[Elendil's Heir]

... By the way, Edison has appeared on a U.S. coin (http://www.usmint.gov/mint_programs/commemoratives/index.cfm?action=edison), albeit a commemorative silver dollar not released into circulation.

Thank you! Ignorance fought.

Frederick Douglass gets my vote this round.

[Sailboat]

Teddy.

[Red Skeezix]

Theodore Roosevelt

[What Exit?]

I thought this was Greatest American, not greatest President. Do you people know how ridiculously kick-ass Theodore was?

He propelled America onto the world stage.
Won a Nobel Peace prize for ending a war.
Wrote scholarly and popular books. The Naval war of 1812 was used as a war college text on both sides of the Atlantic.
Was a rancher, hunter, explorer, war hero, dandy, amateur scientist, reformer, diplomat, discoverer and several others things I am forgetting.
He was shot in the chest giving a speech but quickly accessed he could hold of immediate medical attention and gave a 45 minute speech that was said to be quite rousing and then got medical aid.
In the cold Dakota winter, he hunted down and captured live two desperadoes and brought them to justice with only the aid of two of his ranch hands.

There is a large river named for him as his expedition discovered this tributary to the Amazon.

The Panama canal was basically him.
The Great White Fleet was him.

Please check at least the wiki article for a quick review of how much more he was than just a top President. The man was simply amazing beyond belief.

Jim (all of the above was from memory, please excuse any small mistakes and omissions.)

[Gyrate]

You forgot the National Parks.

[What Exit?]

You forgot the National Parks.
Huge oversight on my part, thank you.

[It's Not Rocket Surgery!]

I'll back off of Teddy. I'd like to vote for FDR but it seems futile this round.
Therefore, my vote goes to:

Frederick Douglass

[Elendil's Heir]

You forgot the National Parks.

Plus trust-busting, clean food and drink legislation, and dining in the White House with Booker T. Washington despite Southern angst.

Quite a guy.

[Stowed Bob]

Franklin D Roosevelt. Eleanor was the one who pushed him into making his more fondly remembered policies.

[ToeJam]

Susan B. Anthony.

[Qin Shi Huangdi]

Susan B. Anthony

[Boozahol Squid, P.I.]

Douglass

[StusBlues]

It is interesting that the two leading contenders for bouncing this round are both (http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=31) buried (http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=6110193)in Mt. Hope Cemetery (Rochester, NY).

[Sternvogel]

Since it's past noon and there was a clear-cut choice this round, I'll post the tally:

Frederick Douglass 7

Martin Luther King, Jr. 3
Teddy Roosevelt 3

Susan B. Anthony 2

Franklin D. Roosevelt 1

If I correctly divine the intentions of Elendil's Heir, the deadline for the next round's votes will be noon EDT Friday, March 19.

Remaining contenders are:

Susan B. Anthony: Suffrage activist
Benjamin Franklin: Scientist, statesman, inventor
Martin Luther King Jr.: Preacher, orator, humanitarian
Abraham Lincoln: President, emancipator, writer
Franklin D. Roosevelt: President, reformer, statesman
Theodore Roosevelt: President, conservationist, statesman
George Washington: President, general, statesman

[It's Not Rocket Surgery!]

You know, if we spread out the voting just right, we could reach our Final Four at the same time as the NCAA.

Lincoln would be the best rebounder, too.

[What Exit?]

Next Round:
Franklin D. Roosevelt

[Tom Scud]

Teddy. Couldn't stand the thought of anyone not named Theodore Roosevelt being President of the US. (And to head off one response, the younger Roosevelt had sound reasons for thinking he was President at an unusual time.)

[Sternvogel]

To continue with the NCAA metaphor, the White House Conference seems over-represented in the Select Seven. Therefore, I'll go with the president I feel to be the weakest of the remaining four.

Franklin D. Roosevelt

[What Exit?]

Teddy. Couldn't stand the thought of anyone not named Theodore Roosevelt being President of the US. (And to head off one response, the younger Roosevelt had sound reasons for thinking he was President at an unusual time.)
Not true, his biggest mistake was thinking that his hand picked successor was going to continue reform and struck back hard when he proved a useless and effectively backstabbing toad. He is the only 3rd party candidate I believe to come in second for good reason. Taft was an ass.

[ToeJam]

FDR.

[Boozahol Squid, P.I.]

While I think Suzie BA is probably the least great among the candidates we haveleft, I'll vote FDR for tactical reasons.

[Elendil's Heir]

...If I correctly divine the intentions of Elendil's Heir, the deadline for the next round's votes will be noon EDT Friday, March 19.

Remaining contenders are:

Susan B. Anthony: Suffrage activist
Benjamin Franklin: Scientist, statesman, inventor
Martin Luther King Jr.: Preacher, orator, humanitarian
Abraham Lincoln: President, emancipator, writer
Franklin D. Roosevelt: President, reformer, statesman
Theodore Roosevelt: President, conservationist, statesman
George Washington: President, general, statesman

You are correct, sir.

My vote: Susan B. Anthony, a giant in the field of women's suffrage, but the least great of those remaining.

[MsWhatsit]

Anthony.

[faithfool]

Teddy

[ToeJam]

While I think Suzie BA is probably the least great among the candidates we haveleft, I'll vote FDR for tactical reasons.

Welcome to the Dark Seedy Underside of Elimination Games, Boozy :D

[Gyrate]

FDR

[StusBlues]

FDR

[Sailboat]

Susan B.

Can't vote against Franklin. FDR was twice the president any of the rest of them were!

Uh...going by number of terms, anyway.

[It's Not Rocket Surgery!]

Franklin D. Roosevelt.

[Justin Credible]

I guess it doesn't matter at this point. FDR.

[Sternvogel]

Once again we have a clear choice:

Franklin D. Roosevelt 8

Susan B. Anthony 3

Theodore Roosevelt 2

That leaves the following as the Super Six:

Susan B. Anthony: Suffrage activist
Benjamin Franklin: Scientist, statesman, inventor
Martin Luther King Jr.: Preacher, orator, humanitarian
Abraham Lincoln: President, emancipator, writer
Theodore Roosevelt: President, conservationist, statesman
George Washington: President, general, statesman

Unless Elendil's Heir has another deadline in mind, voting for this round will conclude at noon EDT Monday, March 22.

[What Exit?]

Sorry Susan B. Anthony but it is your turn I think.

[StusBlues]

Martin Luther King Jr., for reasons I've cited.

[MsWhatsit]

Susan B. Anthony.

[Sternvogel]

Looks like we're going to eliminate one of the two who aren't members of the white male group.

King helped ensure that blacks got to exercise the franchise that had been granted them a century earlier, while Anthony was instrumental in enshrining women's suffrage in the Constitution.

Tough call, but I'll try to help keep Susan around for a few more days. Thus, my vote is for:

Martin Luther King, Jr.

[faithfool]

I'm going out on a limb and saying just because he did it first doesn't mean he's our Greatest American, so Washington.

[Elendil's Heir]

Once again we have a clear choice:

Franklin D. Roosevelt 8

...

That leaves the following as the Super Six:

Susan B. Anthony: Suffrage activist
Benjamin Franklin: Scientist, statesman, inventor
Martin Luther King Jr.: Preacher, orator, humanitarian
Abraham Lincoln: President, emancipator, writer
Theodore Roosevelt: President, conservationist, statesman
George Washington: President, general, statesman

Unless Elendil's Heir has another deadline in mind, voting for this round will conclude at noon EDT Monday, March 22.

Correct, and thank you.

Susan B. Anthony again for me.

(A little surprising that TR is more popular here than FDR; most presidential rankings put FDR higher. Not that I'm complaining - I like TR more myself).

[MsWhatsit]

Susan B. Anthony.

Screw it, I'm changing my vote to Washington.

[Justin Credible]

Washington for me too.

[Elendil's Heir]

We would not have the country we have today, were it not for Washington. As commander-in-chief of the Continental Army (leading it through eight years of the Revolution, sometimes by sheer force of will), as president of the Constitutional Convention, and of course as the first President of the United States, he was of vital and irreplaceable value to the early republic. Susan B. Anthony, for all her many qualities, is just not in his league, IMHO.

[MsWhatsit]

I agree, but 1) I don't think Washington is THE greatest American, and 2) I think it will be a more interesting final round if it's not just Washington v. Lincoln, therefore for tactical reasons I am leaving my vote with Washington.

[What Exit?]

OK, I'll join the party, sorry EH.
Anthony
Washington

[StusBlues]

I'm tempted to change my vote to Washington as well, but I'll hold off unless I need to save Suzie Monday morning.

ETA: No, I won't! Change my vote from MLK to George Washington.

MLK is still overrated, but let him stand now for the great Americans who have already gone, like Jackie Robinson and Frederick Douglass. Hell, that's what he's been doing for 40 years anyway.

[Elendil's Heir]

I have to say, I'm baffled and a little saddened by the sudden anti-Washington bandwagon, given his vital role in the establishment of the nation. He clearly ought to be in the final three, and IMHO has an excellent claim to the top spot.

[It's Not Rocket Surgery!]

Susan B. Anthony.

[What Exit?]

I have to say, I'm baffled and a little saddened by the sudden anti-Washington bandwagon, given his vital role in the establishment of the nation. He clearly ought to be in the final three, and IMHO has an excellent claim to the top spot.
Well in my case I put Ben and Theodore ahead and favor Lincoln by a little, so if people are willing to dump GW a little early, I'll go along to help my other 3. I'm reasonably sure Susan B is gone next.

[Gyrate]

Susan B Anthony

[Sailboat]

I agree that it's more interesting if Washington does not take the top spot as Greatest American president and the same spot as Greatest American. I think he could be knocked off by Franklin waving a beer mug, or held at arm's length by Lincoln, the only contender left who's got reach on him.

But I can't see him being picketed out of the top spot by Susan B. Anthony. So I'm voting against Susie B. this round.

[Elendil's Heir]

The Father of His Country loses in a squeaker. What a shame:

George Washington 5
Susan B. Anthony 4
Martin Luther King Jr. 1

That leaves:

Susan B. Anthony: Suffrage activist
Benjamin Franklin: Scientist, statesman, inventor
Martin Luther King Jr.: Preacher, orator, humanitarian
Abraham Lincoln: President, emancipator, writer
Theodore Roosevelt: President, conservationist, statesman

Same rules as before, folks. Our new deadline is noon EST on Weds. March 24.

[What Exit?]

Top five for Susan B. Anthony is pretty impressive, I think it is her time to go.

[Sailboat]

I will bid farewell to Washington with my all-time favorite mental image of him: the only time I know of in which he allowed himself to appear undignified (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11318339&postcount=10).

[MsWhatsit]

Anthony. No question this time.

[Sailboat]

That leaves:

Susan B. Anthony: Suffrage activist
Benjamin Franklin: Scientist, statesman, inventor
Martin Luther King Jr.: Preacher, orator, humanitarian
Abraham Lincoln: President, emancipator, writer
Theodore Roosevelt: President, conservationist, statesman


What's interesting about this list to me is that Franklin is the exception. Now that all the generals are gone, everyone on the list is famous for fixing (or trying to fix) one of America's great besetting social flaws:

[Lack of] Women's rights and equality
--
[Lack of] Civil rights, racial discrimination and Jim Crow laws
The sundered union AND slavery
Monopolies AND the destruction of public lands

Ben is probably the most well-rounded of the remaining figures (albeit in close competition with Teddy) but not especially a crusader against one of the great American weaknesses.

That said, I like ol' Ben. And he certainly was unique.

I'm still going to vote against Susan B. Anthony, using the questionable criterion that she simply didn't stand out as much above her peers as the remaining titans did. Maybe this is because of the way women collaborate, perhaps putting me at risk of being sexist, but Anthony worked so closely with Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Lucretia Mott, Amelia Bloomer, and others, that she doesn't seem to my memory to be as dominant a figure.

[Tom Scud]

Sorry I've been out of commission - busy weekend and a new Mafia game on top of it. Anyway, I think I'm going to have to give a vote to

Susan B. Anthony

as well.

[Sternvogel]

Although I stood alone last time, I'll once again cast my vote for

Martin Luther King, Jr.

while also bemoaning the fact that Washington is gone. Hey, I generally love such upsets as the one Northern Iowa scored over Kansas in the NCAA men's hoops tourney, but only if they're on merit. Although I wouldn't necessarily have voted him champion, I didn't see a credible case made to knock George out so early.

[It's Not Rocket Surgery!]

Susan B. Anthony.

[Elendil's Heir]

Also Anthony.

[StusBlues]

Martin Luther King, Jr.

[What Exit?]

Although I stood alone last time, I'll once again cast my vote for

Martin Luther King, Jr.

while also bemoaning the fact that Washington is gone. Hey, I generally love such upsets as the one Northern Iowa scored over Kansas in the NCAA men's hoops tourney, but only if they're on merit. Although I wouldn't necessarily have voted him champion, I didn't see a credible case made to knock George out so early.
It could be argued no slave owner should be in the final 5 at least. He was a great man, and unlike Jefferson he freed all his slaves upon his death so I hold it against him far less than Jefferson and others, but it is a big knock against Washington that should not be completely overlooked.

[Red Skeezix]

Martin Luther King, Jr.

Largely for real cultural impact. Susan B. Anthony and her contemporaries' actions benefit more Americans and had a larger cultural significance that MLK.

Also, I feel that MLK gets a lot of extra credit due for martyrdom and there is a hint of hypocrisy in that he was arguing for civil rights while marginalizing women and their role in the Civil Rights Movement. IMO, MLK has gone far enough in this game.

[Justin Credible]

MLK

Tally:
Anthony - 6
MLK - 4

[fusoya]

End woman's suffrage now! - Susan B Anthony.

[StusBlues]

It could be argued no slave owner should be in the final 5 at least. He was a great man, and unlike Jefferson he freed all his slaves upon his death so I hold it against him far less than Jefferson and others, but it is a big knock against Washington that should not be completely overlooked.

Now you know how I feel about plagiarists.

Lord knows I forgive MLK, and everyone should, but to see him exalted as one of the five greatest Americans makes me wince--especially when his accomplishments (or, honestly, lack thereof) do not seem to be well-understood.

[septimus]

Susan B. Anthony

[Gyrate]

MLK

[Justin Credible]

Susan B. Anthony - 8
MLK - 5

Susan B is out. Leaving:

Benjamin Franklin: Scientist, statesman, inventor
Martin Luther King Jr.: Preacher, orator, humanitarian
Abraham Lincoln: President, emancipator, writer
Theodore Roosevelt: President, conservationist, statesman

I will assume the new deadline is noon EST on Friday, March 26th.

[Really Not All That Bright]

Lord knows I forgive MLK, and everyone should, but to see him exalted as one of the five greatest Americans makes me wince--especially when his accomplishments (or, honestly, lack thereof) do not seem to be well-understood.
He wasn't an elected official. He was a preacher. His accomplishments - galvanizing a nation into rejecting bigotry and hate, no less - are astonishing, considering his resources.

George Washington and Abraham Lincoln had an army, remember.

Oh, I'm voting off Washington, by the way. If anyone's overrated, it's him.

[Sternvogel]

Oh, I'm voting off Washington, by the way. If anyone's overrated, it's him.

Too late -- he was eliminated Monday.

I've been voting the same way for the last few rounds, and think I'll finally be in the plurality this time.

Martin Luther King, Jr.

[Red Skeezix]

MLK
for the same reasons as yesterday

[Sailboat]

George Washington and Abraham Lincoln had an army, remember.

Well, Lincoln had an army once he pried it out of the hot little hands (and cold, cold feet) of McClellan. :)

[faithfool]

Roosevelt

[MsWhatsit]

TR.

[Justin Credible]

MLK

[What Exit?]

Martin Luther King

Come on people, remember Roosevelt was a greater man than any of them but maybe Franklin, smarter than all but Franklin, tougher than all but Washington, brought this country on to the world stage and was so kick ass that he was off the scale.

[Really Not All That Bright]

Looks like my post got eaten. Off with Roosevelt.

[septimus]

[MLK] wasn't an elected official. He was a preacher. His accomplishments - galvanizing a nation into rejecting bigotry and hate, no less - are astonishing, considering his resources.

I'm impressed by his oratory; "I have a dream" reads like poetry.

Can anyone point me to speech[es] by other American(s) with the spell-binding quality of MLK?

[StusBlues]

He wasn't an elected official. He was a preacher. His accomplishments - galvanizing a nation into rejecting bigotry and hate, no less - are astonishing, considering his resources.



Begging the question. As I've demonstrated earlier, most of the galvanizing was done by others. By the time King his his stride, Brown vs. Board of Education was law and most major institutions were integrated.

MLK. Again.

[StusBlues]

I'm impressed by his oratory; "I have a dream" reads like poetry.

Can anyone point me to speech[es] by other American(s) with the spell-binding quality of MLK?

Gladly!

Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation, conceived in liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.

Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation, so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battle-field of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field, as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this.

But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate...we can not consecrate...we can not hallow this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us—that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion—that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain—that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom—and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.

[What Exit?]

My first thought too StusBlues. FDR had some good ones too as I recall. Also oddly enough one sports figure by the name of Lou Gehrig, but MLK is right up there in the top 10 if not the top 5.

[Elendil's Heir]

...I will assume the new deadline is noon EST on Friday, March 26th.

Correct, and thank you.

We're down to the best of the best now. Each of these votes is gonna hurt. Still, of those remaining, I'm afraid it's Roosevelt. Franklin played a key role in bringing France in on our side in the American Revolution, in addition to all of his other many accomplishments. MLK should still be in the mix, for the reasons earlier stated - he more than any other leader helped transform American society after a century of segregation and bigotry. Lincoln's leadership in the Civil War, and the inspirational power of his oratory and writing, are rightly legendary. (Washington should still be in the mix, but what's done is done).

I love T.R. and consider him one of the greatest Americans ever, but my vote now is for Roosevelt, with regret.

[Elendil's Heir]

Other great American rhetoric:

Washington's Farewell Address: http://www.earlyamerica.com/earlyamerica/milestones/farewell/text.html
Webster's Second Reply to Hayne (esp. the conclusion): http://www.dartmouth.edu/~dwebster/speeches/hayne-speech.html
Sojourner Truth, "Ain't I a Woman?": http://www.feminist.com/resources/artspeech/genwom/sojour.htm
Lincoln's Second Inaugural Address: http://www.bartleby.com/124/pres32.html
FDR's First Inaugural Address: http://www.bartleby.com/124/pres49.html
Kennedy's Inaugural Address: http://www.bartleby.com/124/pres56.html
Kennedy's 1963 Civil Rights speech: http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/jfkcivilrights.htm
Barbara Jordan's statement on the Nixon articles of impeachment: http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/barbarajordanjudiciarystatement.htm
Clinton's speech at the Oklahoma City bombing memorial service: http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/wjcoklahomabombingspeech.htm
Obama on "a more perfect Union": http://constitutioncenter.org/amoreperfectunion/
Obama's Election Night acceptance speech: http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/11/04/obama.transcript/

[It's Not Rocket Surgery!]

Teddy Roosevelt.

[Sailboat]

I looked at that "American Rhetoric" site's "Top 100 Speeches" list and am somewhat baffled by Lincoln's entire absence from the list. I wonder what that deal is.

I'd throw Lincoln's First Inaugural into your list, particularly for the last few paragraphs.

[Gyrate]

MLK again.

[Tom Scud]

Teddy.

[Sailboat]

This is hard. I hate to throw anyone out, and I definitely hate to pitch MLK -- flawed as he was, I think he made possible for civil rights to come about peacefully, which is something of a historical anomaly. Anyone who serves as a major impetus for peace and freedom has earned enormous credit in my book, outweighing the womanizing, plagiarism charges, and even his willingness to permit people to give him so much of the credit for the work of so many others (a fault not uncommon on our list).

But Teddy is also a titan. And one for the 21st century: his principal areas of endeavor -- breaking up corporate monopolies, establishing national parks, promoting conservation, national defense, and even his promotion of physical fitness are all vitally, even increasingly, important issues for the presidency today, in a way that so many other issues from those days are not (gold standard, anyone?). He even added to our political lexicon: "bully pulpit."

I'm a huge Franklin fan, but I'm not sure he trumps either of the two candidates mentioned above. Still, the old rascal of the Founders remains a sentimental choice. Scientist, statesman, diplomat, legislator, humorist, writer, womanizer, drinker, and guardian of great national secrets (the Gulf Stream secret). Of the remaining candidates, he'd be everyone's favorite dinner guest.

If I tally correctly, MLK and TR are tied.

I guess that with considerable regret, I'm going to vote against Martin Luther King. It's taken me days to come to this point. I'm going to claim I'm basing it on the future -- I see environmental concerns as the looming crisis of our century, and TR, as an example, carries weight with exactly the political stripe of people most inclined to oppose and obstruct environmental legislation. We need MLK's example to live together; we may need TR's example to keep living on Earth.

.

[What Exit?]

Great post Sailboat and not just as you voted to preserve TR. It is really a well thought out and well explained reasoning.

[Tom Scud]

I count 7 for King and 6 for Roosevelt as of Sailboat's vote.

[Elendil's Heir]

OK, then. MLK is out, leaving:

Benjamin Franklin: Scientist, statesman, inventor
Abraham Lincoln: President, emancipator, writer
Theodore Roosevelt: President, conservationist, statesman

Of course, still one vote each. For those who are late to the party, you can vote even if you haven't participated in the thread before. The new deadline is noon EST on Mon. March 29.

My vote: TR again, although I love all three of these guys for very different reasons. He's just a tiny notch below their level of significance in American history, IMHO.

[Tom Scud]

Teddy.

[Gyrate]

Oh man. Do I go for the Founder, the Preserver or the Visionary? Tough call...

<grits teeth>

I'll vote off Ben Franklin, dear as he is, because I think Teddy deserves more of a fighting chance. Roosevelt doesn't have the same American mythology to help his cause here as the other two do.

[MsWhatsit]

TR again.

I can't vote against the man who gave us bifocals, volunteer fire departments, and the lending library. Franklin stands alone among our finalists as the only true Renaissance man - statesman, inventor, philosopher, scientist, philanthropist, and writer.

PS: Has anyone voted for Lincoln for the duration of this entire contest?

[StusBlues]

Roosevelt doesn't have the same American mythology to help his cause here as the other two do.

Well, there may be a reason for that :) TR has certainly had his detractors.

VERY tough call at this point. Lincoln--literally--never ceases to amaze me. The more I read about him, the more layers there are to how remarkable a man he was. Franklin, on the other hand, has become increasinly human to me. It it clear that we cannot measure him against 21st-century standards, and this helps and hurts him. Bluntly, it was much easier to be a polymath 250 years ago. He was a great achiever in many fields, but the sum of the modern experiment has been to reduce each of those fields to such a degree of specialization that only one who devotes a lifetime thereto can contribute substantially. Today, Franklin's abilities in physics would be "interesting" for a statesman, not remarkable.

TR suffers from this effect as well, but not to the same degree. Convervationism has its specialists, too, but great achievement in the field is still more a function of energy and resources as opposed to specialization. In many ways, history has enhanced his standing, not diminished it.

All three men are alike in ways that I wish were typically American. None of the three led a live ruled by dogma. As Roosevelt said: "I believe that this Republic will endure for many centuries. If so, there will doubtless be among its Presidents Protestants and Catholics, and very probably at some time, Jews. … In my Cabinet at the present moment there sit side by side Catholic and Protestant, Christian and Jew, each man chosen because in my belief he is peculiarly fit to exercise on behalf of all our people the duties of the office. … In no case does a man’s religious belief in any way influence his discharge of his duties, save as it makes him more eager to act justly and uprightly in his relations to all men.”

So I'm voting for Ben this round. Very tough call.

[What Exit?]

Lincoln, he did one great thing and wrote some great speeches. The power of the North was overwhelming and many men would have done what Lincoln did. I feel he is top 3. Indeed the 3 left are my top 3 from the beginning. Ben is a Giant and is probably the main figure in the founding of this country. Roosevelt was so much more than Lincoln, maybe not as a great a President but a greater man.

So I cast the first vote against Lincoln.

[Elendil's Heir]

...Franklin stands alone among our finalists as the only true Renaissance man - statesman, inventor, philosopher, scientist, philanthropist, and writer....

Although he has my vote this round, TR was almost as much a Renaissance man as Franklin: author, boxer, cowboy, naturalist, police chief, conservationist, big-game hunter, explorer, philanthropist, diplomat (won the Nobel Peace Prize), civil service chief, asst. SecNav, VP, and President. No slouch he.

[Tom Scud]

Another thing worth pointing out - Franklin was the fifteenth child of a tradesman; Lincoln was the son of a small farmer; Roosevelt had to overcome the disadvantages of a privileged upbringing.

[What Exit?]

Could someone actually enumerate why Lincoln is greater than TR or Ben?

As to the privileged upbringing, that was at the time a disadvantage in politics; seriously it was, especially in NY. It sure beat being dirt poor, but it was no advantage. He traded on hard work and honesty like Abe.

[MsWhatsit]

Although he has my vote this round, TR was almost as much a Renaissance man as Franklin: author, boxer, cowboy, naturalist, police chief, conservationist, big-game hunter, explorer, philanthropist, diplomat (won the Nobel Peace Prize), civil service chief, asst. SecNav, VP, and President. No slouch he.

Truth, although seriously, the lending library thing tips the balance for me.

[Tom Scud]

As to the privileged upbringing, that was at the time a disadvantage in politics; seriously it was, especially in NY. It sure beat being dirt poor, but it was no advantage.

I call BS here. Hard work and honesty will carry you a ways, but not as far as hard work, honesty, and a couple million dollars.

This is my problem with Roosevelt, really - he had it easy, relatively speaking. He grew up as the scion of wealth; didn't win the Presidency on his own merits until he had the advantage of incumbency; inherited a party which had dominated the presidency for fifty years (and then nearly destroyed it); and faced no major foreign-policy or economic challenges as President. It is to his credit that he was as creative as he was, but nothing he faced remotely compares to what Lincoln overcame in his life.

[StusBlues]

Lincoln, he did one great thing and wrote some great speeches. [quote]

ONE great thing? Abraham Lincoln signed the Homestead Act. Abraham Lincoln signed the Morrill Land Grant Act, authorizing the creation of what are now the major universities of the American west. Abraham Lincoln signed legislation giving federal support to the transcontinental railroad. Abraham Lincoln, as executive, authorized the USDA. Abraham Lincoln was instrumental in founding the Republican Party. Abraham Lincoln established Thanksgiving as a national holiday. Abraham Lincoln recognized Haiti's independence over sixty years after the fact. Abraham Lincoln was the only US President to hold a patent. Let's face it: the guy was a mensch, though the western nature of most of his non-Civil War-related accomplishments has led to their being overshadowed in American historiography.

[quote]The power of the North was overwhelming and many men would have done what Lincoln did.

Many men wouldn't have, either, since many didn't. Federal policy until Lincoln was to acquiesce to the south while leaving the question of that peculiar institution unsettled. Lincoln didn't do that. With the exception of the vastly underrated Zachary Taylor, Lincoln was the only president since Jackson to show real courage in sectional matters, and his record on that score is much better than Jackson's. He was a president of singular accomplishment.

[What Exit?]

I call BS here. Hard work and honesty will carry you a ways, but not as far as hard work, honesty, and a couple million dollars.

This is my problem with Roosevelt, really - he had it easy, relatively speaking. He grew up as the scion of wealth; didn't win the Presidency on his own merits until he had the advantage of incumbency; inherited a party which had dominated the presidency for fifty years (and then nearly destroyed it); and faced no major foreign-policy or economic challenges as President. It is to his credit that he was as creative as he was, but nothing he faced remotely compares to what Lincoln overcame in his life.
Just a minor clarification: Not that it makes a big difference but Theodore's inheritance was never in the millions. He got less than $100k I believe in money and yearly earnings around the $10k range. He supplemented this with salary, book writing and investments. He was still very well off by the standards of the day and if we put it into today's dollars saying millions is correct I believe.

[Sternvogel]

Tough call, but although I'm glad some non-presidents have gotten their due (or even more than said due, in some cases), I like the idea of two Chief Executives facing off in the final round. So I'm going to cast my vote for

Benjamin Franklin

[JohnT]

Teddy Roosevelt.

[Qin Shi Huangdi]

Franklin.

[Justin Credible]

Teddy.

Teddy - 5
Ben - 4
Abe - 1

[Red Skeezix]

TR

[ToeJam]

Ben Franklin.

[Sailboat]

Wow, torn as usual. It's hard to argue against any of these guys.

Franklin and TR are on the list partly for the sheer variety of their endeavors. Ben was probably more naturally gifted than Teddy, who had to work harder at it; fortunately, hard work was something he excelled at.

After some last-minute cramming, I'm going to vote against Teddy Roosevelt. Originally, I was inclined the other way, due to my (possibly mistaken) impression that Franklin somewhat rested on his laurels and made quips during the drafting of the Declaration.

But I didn't realize how active he became in abolitionist causes and advocacy in his later years. This marks him as one of the only Founders to really take up the task of fixing the great, glaring unresolved problem of American freedom. Of the men who wrote

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

few really worked to fix the slavery issue (Hamilton was also vocally antislavery but has already been eliminated).

It's worth noting that Franklin also led militia to disarm and quell a mob that had been killing Indians (Native Americans) and spoke out against the hatred.

This in my mind makes Franklin perhaps the most complete of the Founders.

[notfrommensa]

Teddy Roosevelt

[StusBlues]

Looks like it's Ben vs. Abe. Hell of a final.

[Sternvogel]

As I did last round, I vote to knock out

Ben Franklin

If Lincoln wins after losing the President Elimination Game to Washington, Abe will be reminiscent of a team which comes up short in the final of its conference tournament, only to take the NCAA crown a few weeks later.

[Justin Credible]

I have to vote to oust Lincoln. I've been quietly cheering Ben on for a while now, and I can't vote against him now.

[JohnT]

Sorry, Abe.

[What Exit?]

Lincoln goes. Ben is the greatest American.

[MsWhatsit]

Er, just to clarify, are we onto the final round now?

[What Exit?]

We think so.

[ToeJam]

I vote out Abe then if it's Abe vs. Ben

[Gyrate]

I'm confused. If Teddy is out and we're on Abe vs Ben, then I'm voting out Abe in favor of Ben. If we're still on the threeway match, I've already voted so please disregard.

[StusBlues]

Just in case we're underway, I vote to oust Ben Franklin. Abraham Lincoln is the Greatest American.

[faithfool]

My vote's against Ben also.

[MsWhatsit]

If this is really the final round, I'm casting a vote against Ben Franklin.

[notfrommensa]

My vote in the final round is against Abe.

[Justin Credible]

Well, since no one else is going to do this:

Abe - 6
Ben - 4

Assuming the deadline was today, it looks like Ben Franklin wins the game. If the deadline was supposed to last longer than two days, then I guess it's still up in the air.

[StusBlues]

Well, since no one else is going to do this:

Abe - 6
Ben - 4

Assuming the deadline was today, it looks like Ben Franklin wins the game. If the deadline was supposed to last longer than two days, then I guess it's still up in the air.

I'd say Ben wins at least a moral victory here just for keeping it close. The Polymath beats the Emancipator.* Like I said, damned interesting.


*And, yes, Lincoln was much more of a polymath than people give him credit for. And, yes, Franklin "snatched lightning from the sky and the scepter from tyrants". More overlap between the two than I would think at first blush, really.

[Elendil's Heir]

Well, since no one else is going to do this:

Abe - 6
Ben - 4

Assuming the deadline was today, it looks like Ben Franklin wins the game....


Sorry for the confusion, everyone; I've been on the road.

The vote as of Monday noon was:

T.R. 7
Franklin 5
Lincoln 1

That left the most recent, and final, round pitting Franklin vs. Lincoln. Justin's tally is correct. For the record, I would've voted (with great reluctance) for Franklin in this round, so it wouldn't have changed the results.

Thus, as of the deadline today, Benjamin Franklin is the Greatest American by vote of a bevy of historically-minded Dopers. Thanks, everybody, for an interesting game!

[MsWhatsit]

Very unexpected! I would have laid excellent money, back at the start, that we'd wind up with either Washington or Lincoln as our top guy.

[Gyrate]

Didn't Abe lose by one vote in the President game as well? Always a bridesmaid, never a bride...

[Justin Credible]

That left the most recent, and final, round pitting Franklin vs. Lincoln. Justin's tally is correct. For the record, I would've voted (with great reluctance) for Franklin in this round, so it wouldn't have changed the results.

Actually, if you had voted that way and closed the game at noon, it would have been tied. notfrommensa voted about a half hour after noon. Looks like Abe and Ben would have had to duel for the win.

[Tom Scud]

Looks like Abe and Ben would have had to duel for the win.

With cavalry sabers of the largest size, in a pit divided by a wide plank which neither participant was allowed to cross (http://www.failedsuccess.com/index.php?/weblog/comments/abraham_lincoln_duel/).

[Gyrate]

With cavalry sabers of the largest size, in a pit divided by a wide plank which neither participant was allowed to cross (http://www.failedsuccess.com/index.php?/weblog/comments/abraham_lincoln_duel/).I was thinking more of a cage fight (http://www.brandonbird.com/kingofcage.html). As you can see, Lincoln clearly has the edge.

[Elendil's Heir]

Maybe for the next elimination game, I'll do Greatest National Leaders or Greatest Military Leaders. In a few weeks, maybe.

[MsWhatsit]

Greatest scientists or greatest artists might be a fun one, considering that those guys (and girls) tended to get thrown out pretty early on in this game.

[Sailboat]

Well, I would have voted against Ben Franklin, I'm a huge Lincoln goob. But I didn't know there was a deadline yet for this round.

[Elendil's Heir]

The deadlines have been Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays up to now, so it would've followed the same schedule. Sorry.

[Red Skeezix]

How about a bracket game, with artists on one side and scientists on another, and have them show down at the end for Greatest Artist v Greatest Scientist? I think I might start that up, do you need permission to start a new game here?

[Justin Credible]

How about a bracket game, with artists on one side and scientists on another, and have them show down at the end for Greatest Artist v Greatest Scientist? I think I might start that up, do you need permission to start a new game here?

I give you my permission.

[What Exit?]

Yeah for Ben!
Fun game, thank you for hosting it Elendil's Heir

[Elendil's Heir]

...do you need permission to start a new game here?

Nope. Knock yourself out!

And thanks, What Exit?

[Qin Shi Huangdi]

Maybe for the next elimination game, I'll do Greatest National Leaders or Greatest Military Leaders. In a few weeks, maybe.

I would like to start an Elimination Game for the 100 most influential people (as determined by Michael Hart's book) with perhaps additions..

[septimus]

Thanks for the game, Elendil's Heir !
I see no one's posted the final list; here's my unofficial list of the Greatest Americans in order:

1. Benjamin Franklin: Scientist, statesman, inventor
2. Theodore Roosevelt: President, conservationist, statesman
3. Abraham Lincoln: President, emancipator, writer
4. Martin Luther King Jr.: Preacher, orator, humanitarian
5. Susan B. Anthony: Suffrage activist
6. George Washington: President, general, statesman
7. Franklin D. Roosevelt: President, reformer, statesman
8. Frederick Douglass: Abolitionist, orator
9. Thomas Edison: Inventor, workaholic
10. Orville and Wilbur Wright: Aviation pioneers, inventors
11. James Madison: President, Framer, statesman
12. John Marshall: Fourth Chief Justice
13. Earl Warren: Chief Justice, governor
13. Roger Williams: Statesman, religious leader
15. Mark Twain (Samuel Clemens): Humorist, "Huckleberry Finn"
16. George Marshall: General, diplomat, statesman
16. Thomas Paine: Political theorist, pamphleteer
16. Harriet Tubman: Civil rights advocate
19. Dwight D. Eisenhower: President, war hero
20. Jackie Robinson: Athlete, activist, inspiration
21. Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.: Supreme Court Justice
21. Henry David Thoreau: Poet, naturalist, philosopher
21. Daniel Webster: Orator, advocate, statesman
24. George Washington Carver: Agricultural botanist
24. John Franklin Enders: Modern vaccines pioneer
24. Jonas Salk: Polio vaccine inventor
27. Walt Whitman: Civil War poet
28. William Lloyd Garrison: Abolitionist, writer
28. Edgar Allan Poe: Poet, writer, critic
28. William Seward: Diplomat; bought Alaska
28. Upton Sinclair: Author, muckraker
28. Harry Truman: President, statesman
33. Langston Hughes: Harlem Renaissance poet
33. Jim Thorpe: Native American athlete
35. Chief Joseph (Hin-mah-too-yah-lat-kekt): Leader, peacemaker, tactician
35. Will Rogers: Humorist, social commentator
35. Sitting Bull: Indian leader, warrior
38. George Gershwin: Prolific, versatile composer
38. Helen Keller: Redefined language, mind
38. John J. Pershing: Top WWI general
38. Eleanor Roosevelt: Reformer, writer, advocate
42. Robert Frost: Greatest American poet
42. Lewis and Clark (Meriwether and William, resp.): Louisiana Purchase explorers
44. Ralph Waldo Emerson: Philosopher, writer
45. Henry Bergh: Saved children, animals
46. John Adams: President, writer, statesman
46. Alexander Hamilton: Financier, economist, statesman
46. Edward R Murrow: Broadcaster
49. Thomas Nast: Editorial cartoonist, muckraker
49. Jesse Owens: Famed Olympic athlete
49. Eli Whitney: Inventor, cotton gin
52. John von Neumann: Mathematician, scientist, polymath
53. Albert Einstein: Scientist, activist
53. Thomas Jefferson: President, Declaration writer
55. Aaron Copland: Composer, musician
56. Joshua Chamberlain: Civil War hero
56. Tecumseh: Indian leader, uniter
58. Leonard Bernstein: Composer, conductor, educator
58. J.P. Morgan: Financial giant, tycoon
58. Audie Murphy: Decorated soldier, actor
61. Philo Farnsworth: TV piorneer, inventor
62. Andrew Carnegie: Industrialist, philanthropist
63. John Brown: Righteous, inspirational abolitionist
63. James K. Polk: President, statesman
65. George S. Patton: WWII general, orator
66. Willis Carrier: Air conditioning pioneer
66. Carrie Chapman Catt: Women's rights suffragist
66. Richard Feynman: Physicist, Renaissance man
66. John F. Kennedy: President, "New Frontier"
70. Cesar Chavez: Civil rights activist
71. Bruce Catton: Civil War historian
71. Kurt Godel: Mathematician, incompleteness theorem
71. Elvis Presley: Rock and Roller
71. Carl Sagan: Astronomer, science popularizer
75. Douglas MacArthur: WWII general
76. Babe Ruth: Legendary baseball icon
76. Orson Welles: Writer, director, actor
78. John Coltrane: Musician, composer
78. Margaret Sanger: Birth-control pioneer
78. Nikola Tesla: Inventor, engineer
81. Daniel Bliss: Educator, AUB founder
81. Jim Henson: Beloved children's programmer
81. Frank Lloyd Wright: Prairie School architect
84. Walt Disney: Animator, entrepreneur, icon
85. Walt Kelly: "Pogo" creator, humorist
86. John D. Rockefeller: Billionaire, philanthropist
87. P.T. Barnum: World's greatest showman
88. Andrew Jackson: President, general, populist
89. Richard Nixon: President, lawyer, author
90. Ambrose Bierce: Author, journalist, satirist, critic
90. Robert Heinlein: Science fiction author
90. Jimi Hendrix: Influential musician, activist
90. Babe Zaharias: Greatest female athlete
94. Jack Kirby: Comics pioneer
94. H.P. Lovecraft: Horror writer
96. Shel Silverstein: Author, humorist
97. James Branch Cabell: Author, marriage proponent
98. Lucille Ball: Actress, comedian, redhead
98. Charles Lindbergh: Aviator, American hero
100. Henry Ford: Inventor, industrialist, philanthropist
101. Marilyn Monroe: Legendary film star
102. Malcolm X: Civil rights leader

[septimus]

I would like to start an Elimination Game for the 100 most influential people (as determined by Michael Hart's book) with perhaps additions.

Let me recommend again that the Game use Hart's criteria with little or no change. It might seem good to replace "influence" with "positive influence" to get rid of Hitler, but where would one draw the line? The voting on Muhammed would no longer reflect his influence, but rather a comparison of Islamic Golden Age "goodness" versus modern jihadist "badness." The question of Constantine's influence is interesting, but disappears if the debate focusses on whether Christianization was good or bad. The vote on James Watt would be affected by quasi-Ludditism. These all might be interesting debates, but if one were to let them dominate the Hart's List Elimination Game one wonders why bother to start with Hart's List in the first place?

[StusBlues]

If you're basing this on voting, you should juxtapose Lincoln and TR.

Thanks for the game, Elendil's Heir !
I see no one's posted the final list; here's my unofficial list of the Greatest Americans in order:

1. Benjamin Franklin: Scientist, statesman, inventor
2. Theodore Roosevelt: President, conservationist, statesman
3. Abraham Lincoln: President, emancipator, writer
4. Martin Luther King Jr.: Preacher, orator, humanitarian
5. Susan B. Anthony: Suffrage activist
6. George Washington: President, general, statesman
7. Franklin D. Roosevelt: President, reformer, statesman
8. Frederick Douglass: Abolitionist, orator
9. Thomas Edison: Inventor, workaholic
10. Orville and Wilbur Wright: Aviation pioneers, inventors
11. James Madison: President, Framer, statesman
12. John Marshall: Fourth Chief Justice
13. Earl Warren: Chief Justice, governor
13. Roger Williams: Statesman, religious leader
15. Mark Twain (Samuel Clemens): Humorist, "Huckleberry Finn"
16. George Marshall: General, diplomat, statesman
16. Thomas Paine: Political theorist, pamphleteer
16. Harriet Tubman: Civil rights advocate
19. Dwight D. Eisenhower: President, war hero
20. Jackie Robinson: Athlete, activist, inspiration
21. Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.: Supreme Court Justice
21. Henry David Thoreau: Poet, naturalist, philosopher
21. Daniel Webster: Orator, advocate, statesman
24. George Washington Carver: Agricultural botanist
24. John Franklin Enders: Modern vaccines pioneer
24. Jonas Salk: Polio vaccine inventor
27. Walt Whitman: Civil War poet
28. William Lloyd Garrison: Abolitionist, writer
28. Edgar Allan Poe: Poet, writer, critic
28. William Seward: Diplomat; bought Alaska
28. Upton Sinclair: Author, muckraker
28. Harry Truman: President, statesman
33. Langston Hughes: Harlem Renaissance poet
33. Jim Thorpe: Native American athlete
35. Chief Joseph (Hin-mah-too-yah-lat-kekt): Leader, peacemaker, tactician
35. Will Rogers: Humorist, social commentator
35. Sitting Bull: Indian leader, warrior
38. George Gershwin: Prolific, versatile composer
38. Helen Keller: Redefined language, mind
38. John J. Pershing: Top WWI general
38. Eleanor Roosevelt: Reformer, writer, advocate
42. Robert Frost: Greatest American poet
42. Lewis and Clark (Meriwether and William, resp.): Louisiana Purchase explorers
44. Ralph Waldo Emerson: Philosopher, writer
45. Henry Bergh: Saved children, animals
46. John Adams: President, writer, statesman
46. Alexander Hamilton: Financier, economist, statesman
46. Edward R Murrow: Broadcaster
49. Thomas Nast: Editorial cartoonist, muckraker
49. Jesse Owens: Famed Olympic athlete
49. Eli Whitney: Inventor, cotton gin
52. John von Neumann: Mathematician, scientist, polymath
53. Albert Einstein: Scientist, activist
53. Thomas Jefferson: President, Declaration writer
55. Aaron Copland: Composer, musician
56. Joshua Chamberlain: Civil War hero
56. Tecumseh: Indian leader, uniter
58. Leonard Bernstein: Composer, conductor, educator
58. J.P. Morgan: Financial giant, tycoon
58. Audie Murphy: Decorated soldier, actor
61. Philo Farnsworth: TV piorneer, inventor
62. Andrew Carnegie: Industrialist, philanthropist
63. John Brown: Righteous, inspirational abolitionist
63. James K. Polk: President, statesman
65. George S. Patton: WWII general, orator
66. Willis Carrier: Air conditioning pioneer
66. Carrie Chapman Catt: Women's rights suffragist
66. Richard Feynman: Physicist, Renaissance man
66. John F. Kennedy: President, "New Frontier"
70. Cesar Chavez: Civil rights activist
71. Bruce Catton: Civil War historian
71. Kurt Godel: Mathematician, incompleteness theorem
71. Elvis Presley: Rock and Roller
71. Carl Sagan: Astronomer, science popularizer
75. Douglas MacArthur: WWII general
76. Babe Ruth: Legendary baseball icon
76. Orson Welles: Writer, director, actor
78. John Coltrane: Musician, composer
78. Margaret Sanger: Birth-control pioneer
78. Nikola Tesla: Inventor, engineer
81. Daniel Bliss: Educator, AUB founder
81. Jim Henson: Beloved children's programmer
81. Frank Lloyd Wright: Prairie School architect
84. Walt Disney: Animator, entrepreneur, icon
85. Walt Kelly: "Pogo" creator, humorist
86. John D. Rockefeller: Billionaire, philanthropist
87. P.T. Barnum: World's greatest showman
88. Andrew Jackson: President, general, populist
89. Richard Nixon: President, lawyer, author
90. Ambrose Bierce: Author, journalist, satirist, critic
90. Robert Heinlein: Science fiction author
90. Jimi Hendrix: Influential musician, activist
90. Babe Zaharias: Greatest female athlete
94. Jack Kirby: Comics pioneer
94. H.P. Lovecraft: Horror writer
96. Shel Silverstein: Author, humorist
97. James Branch Cabell: Author, marriage proponent
98. Lucille Ball: Actress, comedian, redhead
98. Charles Lindbergh: Aviator, American hero
100. Henry Ford: Inventor, industrialist, philanthropist
101. Marilyn Monroe: Legendary film star
102. Malcolm X: Civil rights leader

[septimus]

If you're basing this on voting, you should juxtapose Lincoln and TR.

Oops! Of course it was based on the voting but somehow the top places were harder for me to double-check than the rest. :confused:

I'd repost the list with that correction, but perhaps someone else will want to triple-check the whole list.

[Qin Shi Huangdi]

Let me recommend again that the Game use Hart's criteria with little or no change. It might seem good to replace "influence" with "positive influence" to get rid of Hitler, but where would one draw the line? The voting on Muhammed would no longer reflect his influence, but rather a comparison of Islamic Golden Age "goodness" versus modern jihadist "badness." The question of Constantine's influence is interesting, but disappears if the debate focusses on whether Christianization was good or bad. The vote on James Watt would be affected by quasi-Ludditism. These all might be interesting debates, but if one were to let them dominate the Hart's List Elimination Game one wonders why bother to start with Hart's List in the first place?

Because for the most part I agree with his listing and ranking.

[notfrommensa]

Actually, if you had voted that way and closed the game at noon, it would have been tied. notfrommensa voted about a half hour after noon. Looks like Abe and Ben would have had to duel for the win.

Was my late vote a deciding vote? Didn't mean to vote late. but I am happy about the results.

FTR, Ben Franklin has always been my favorite historical American.