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View Full Version : Small Plane Crashes into Building in Austin, TX


cmyk
02-18-2010, 10:56 AM
A few buildings are now burning. Unfolding story. (http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/02/18/texas.plane.crash/index.html?hpt=T1)

Broomstick
02-18-2010, 10:59 AM
When they say "small airplane" I always have to ask "how small"? Because the media would say a 40 passenger commercial plane is a "small plane", whereas to me a "small plane" would be 6 or fewer seats.

cmyk
02-18-2010, 11:01 AM
I think eye-witnesses said it was a single engine.

cmyk
02-18-2010, 11:04 AM
An eye-witness, who's a pilot, says it was a Blue & White Cherokee 140.

It was flying low, hit the top of a 30' parking lot lamp above him, then sailed right into the center of the building.

beowulff
02-18-2010, 11:17 AM
Two in as many days:
http://dealbook.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/02/18/tesla-employees-killed-in-plane-crash/

cmyk
02-18-2010, 11:36 AM
Uh-oh.

Looks like there might be a connection between a house fire in Austin about an hour before the crash. The homeowner is a pilot that possibly stole a plane he flew out of Georgetown. His family was inside the house while on fire, and I think their neighbors helped them escape.

Possible (intended) murder/suicide?

Broomstick
02-18-2010, 11:42 AM
An eye-witness, who's a pilot, says it was a Blue & White Cherokee 140.
OK. That's definitely a small airplane. It's a 2-seater (unless modified post-purchase).

Duke
02-18-2010, 11:57 AM
Quoth CNN:

"Criminal or terrorist activity" not indicated, Homeland Security spokesman says

Er, since when is stealing a plane and crashing it into a building not "criminal or terrorist activity"?

cmyk
02-18-2010, 11:59 AM
Ok, the plane was a single-engine Cirrus SR22. So, what... probably a 4-seater?

cmyk
02-18-2010, 12:01 PM
Quoth CNN:



Er, since when is stealing a plane and crashing it into a building not "criminal or terrorist activity"?

I think that was before they were able to make the connection between the house fire and the crash.

It's definitely criminal now.

elbows
02-18-2010, 12:05 PM
Any idea what building was hit?

Or why that detail isn't in the news broadcasts?

cmyk
02-18-2010, 12:07 PM
They were saying it's the Echelon 3 Bldg.

Apparently the IRS has offices in there as well. Not sure what else is in there. It looks to be an 8-10 story building.

Ferret Herder
02-18-2010, 12:08 PM
Any idea what building was hit?

Or why that detail isn't in the news broadcasts?
Link (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/chronicle/6873108.html):
The structure that was hit houses private firms and government offices, including the Internal Revenue Services' criminal investigation unit. The FBI is not a tenant, contrary to some initial reports.

Gray Ghost
02-18-2010, 12:11 PM
IRS Criminal Investigation Department was in the building. Not sure if their offices were actually hit by the plane. Cite (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/chronicle/6873108.html) (in the 4th paragraph).

Or you could just read Ferret Herder's account above.

Palo Verde
02-18-2010, 12:12 PM
My sister works there! She is at HMG Engineering which is http://maps.yahoo.com/map?q1=70%2BNe%2BLoop%2B410%2070%20N.E.%20LOOP%20410%20San%20Antonio%2C%20TX%2078216-5849&mag=2&lat=&lon=&ard=1#mvt=m&lat=29.519907&lon=-98.48909&mag=2&zoom=14&q1=70%20Ne%20Loop%20410%2070%20N.E.%20LOOP%20410%20San%20Antonio%2C%20TX%2078216-5849

I'm not sure if it is this building or another one close by. There are several in that area!

Lightnin'
02-18-2010, 12:17 PM
I interviewed in that very building, many years ago. Yikes!

A lot of people are theorizing that he did it because there was an IRS office there. I didn't know that- personally, if I were him, I would've gone for the main IRS building on south I35.

Broomstick
02-18-2010, 12:17 PM
Ok, the plane was a single-engine Cirrus SR22. So, what... probably a 4-seater?
Yep, that's a 4 seat. Although I think it's lighter in weight, it's capable of higher speeds so the total force of impact might be higher with a Cirrus than a PA-140. The Cirrus also comes standard with a ballistic recovery parachute, which in an emergency can be launched through the skin of the airplane to deploy it - this uses a small explosive charge which, unfortunately, tends to go off with heavy impact+fire, and which may account in part for how briskly and hot the resulting fire was. Then again, both types of airplane can carry a considerable amount of gasoline, which also burns quite well when ignited. Combine with paperwork and office furniture and the fire department is definitely needed.

I think by "not connected to terrorist or criminal activity" they mean organized groups of bad guys, not some lone kook with suicidal inclinations.

Between the house fire, stealing the plane, and the kamikaze run I'm inclined to think there are some sort of personal problem(s) at work. With the IRS offices in the building I'm wondering about financial troubles and hatred of taxes.... but who knows at this point if the nutball was actually targeting those people or just picked the building on a whim?

cmyk
02-18-2010, 12:21 PM
My sister works there! She is at HMG Engineering which is http://maps.yahoo.com/map?q1=70%2BNe%2BLoop%2B410%2070%20N.E.%20LOOP%20410%20San%20Antonio%2C%20TX%2078216-5849&mag=2&lat=&lon=&ard=1#mvt=m&lat=29.519907&lon=-98.48909&mag=2&zoom=14&q1=70%20Ne%20Loop%20410%2070%20N.E.%20LOOP%20410%20San%20Antonio%2C%20TX%2078216-5849

I'm not sure if it is this building or another one close by. There are several in that area!

Let us know if she's okay!

cmyk
02-18-2010, 12:27 PM
Between the house fire, stealing the plane, and the kamikaze run I'm inclined to think there are some sort of personal problem(s) at work. With the IRS offices in the building I'm wondering about financial troubles and hatred of taxes.... but who knows at this point if the nutball was actually targeting those people or just picked the building on a whim?

Yeh, it's anyone's guess right now. It could've been totally random. But since it's a suicide, I'm supposing he had a particular target in mind... especially since he also tried to kill his family. Either he worked there and was disgruntled, or was in trouble with his job or the IRS and was seeking vengeance or attempting to hide something, or of course something else entirely.

ETA: Also, thanks for your aviation insight... it adds a lot of perspective to an incident like this. Especially that bit about the explosive parachute charge that could've exasperated the damage.

LIONsob
02-18-2010, 12:31 PM
Latest news, pilots name is joe stack and it is a suicide/attack on the IRS see www.embeddedart.com for his manifesto.

cmyk
02-18-2010, 12:35 PM
Oh boy. The guy has a six-page rant up on his website about the IRS.

This morning he posted something to the effect of "Let's try something different. Take my pound of flesh and sleep well."

cmyk
02-18-2010, 12:36 PM
latest news, pilots name is joe stack and it is a suicide/attack on the irs see www.embeddedart.com for his manifesto.

oooooof.

Ferret Herder
02-18-2010, 12:37 PM
Oh boy. The guy has a six-page rant up on his website about the IRS.

This morning he posted something to the effect of "Let's try something different. Take my pound of flesh and sleep well."
From the website:
My introduction to the real American nightmare starts back in the early ‘80s. Unfortunately after more than 16 years of school, somewhere along the line I picked up the absurd, pompous notion that I could read and understand plain English. Some friends introduced me to a group of people who were having ‘tax code’ readings and discussions. In particular, zeroed in on a section relating to the wonderful “exemptions” that make institutions like the vulgar, corrupt Catholic Church so incredibly wealthy. We carefully studied the law (with the help of some of the “best”, high-paid, experienced tax lawyers in the business), and then began to do exactly what the “big boys” were doing (except that we weren’t steeling from our congregation or lying to the government about our massive profits in the name of God). We took a great deal of care to make it all visible, following all of the rules, exactly the way the law said it was to be done.

The intent of this exercise and our efforts was to bring about a much-needed re-evaluation of the laws that allow the monsters of organized religion to make such a mockery of people who earn an honest living. However, this is where I learned that there are two “interpretations” for every law; one for the very rich, and one for the rest of us… Oh, and the monsters are the very ones making and enforcing the laws; the inquisition is still alive and well today in this country.

That little lesson in patriotism cost me $40,000+, 10 years of my life, and set my retirement plans back to 0.
Translation: I tried to game the tax codes for my own benefit, took the advice of other attempted tax-dodgers, and got caught.

Duke
02-18-2010, 12:38 PM
FAA officials now say it was a Piper Cherokee PA-28.

As an aside: Those are powered by Lycoming O-360 engines, some variants of which were partly designed by my father when he worked at Textron Lycoming.

BrainGlutton
02-18-2010, 12:39 PM
Latest news (http://www.statesman.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/austin/blotter/entries/2010/02/18/austin_police_say_a_plane.html) from the local daily, the Austin American-Statesman. No deaths reported yet.

Palo Verde
02-18-2010, 12:40 PM
I've e-mailed my sister, but I haven't heard back yet.

Does anyone know if the building that was crashed into is

9606 North Mopac Expressway

http://maps.yahoo.com/map?q1=9606%2BN%2BMo%2BPac%2BExpy%209606%20North%20Mopac%20Austin%2C%20TX%2078759-5932%20us&mag=2&lat=&lon=&ard=1#mvt=m&lat=30.384755&lon=-97.736395&mag=2&zoom=14&q1=9606%20N%20Mo%20Pac%20Expy%209606%20North%20Mopac%20Austin%2C%20TX%2078759-5932%20us


That map I gave in my first post was wrong, it was their San Antonio office

LIONsob
02-18-2010, 12:42 PM
I've e-mailed my sister, but I haven't heard back yet.

Does anyone know if the building that was crashed into is

9606 North Mopac Expressway

http://maps.yahoo.com/map?q1=9606%2BN%2BMo%2BPac%2BExpy%209606%20North%20Mopac%20Austin%2C%20TX%2078759-5932%20us&mag=2&lat=&lon=&ard=1#mvt=m&lat=30.384755&lon=-97.736395&mag=2&zoom=14&q1=9606%20N%20Mo%20Pac%20Expy%209606%20North%20Mopac%20Austin%2C%20TX%2078759-5932%20us


That map I gave in my first post was wrong, it was their San Antonio office
They are saying on the news that it is building 2.

Broomstick
02-18-2010, 12:44 PM
Well, it appears there is some confusion over the exact type of airplane, whether or not it was stolen, and various other details... so lets all keep in mind that when more facts come out our viewpoints may need adjusting.

Although that manifesto does give a motive....

Broomstick
02-18-2010, 12:45 PM
Latest news (http://www.statesman.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/austin/blotter/entries/2010/02/18/austin_police_say_a_plane.html) from the local daily, the Austin American-Statesman. No deaths reported yet.
I'm going to nitpick that slightly - it's a pretty sure bet Mr. Joe Stack did not survive the impact. So, at least one death.

Really, I'm getting a Tim McVeigh/Murrah Federal Building vibe off this story, anyone else?

cmyk
02-18-2010, 12:45 PM
They are saying on the news that it is building 2.

Really? CNN has been reporting it's Echelon Bldg #3.

cmyk
02-18-2010, 12:47 PM
I'm going to nitpick that slightly - it's a pretty sure bet Mr. Joe Stack did not survive the impact. So, at least one death.

They're also having trouble accounting for one person. Doesn't mean he/she's dead, but it's not a good sign.

Johnny L.A.
02-18-2010, 12:51 PM
Really, I'm getting a Tim McVeigh/Murrah Federal Building vibe off this story, anyone else?

1. Guy's from Texas.

2. Guy has a hatred of the Catholic Church.

3. Guy tries to re-interpret the tax code to his advantage.

I'm getting a profile of the guy, that matches a lot of what I read in a gun forum I lurk at.

Mehitabel
02-18-2010, 12:54 PM
That's a chilling rant, and it's especially nasty that he signs it with his death year.

But there's something else going on, because why try to take your family with you if you're mad at the IRS?

Magiver
02-18-2010, 12:56 PM
FAA officials now say it was a Piper Cherokee PA-28.

As an aside: Those are powered by Lycoming O-360 engines, some variants of which were partly designed by my father when he worked at Textron Lycoming. No, it depends on what the rest of the numbers are. If it's a 140 then it's an 0-320. Pa-28 represents a series of aircraft including an Arrow.

The FAA said it was a PA-28 Cherokee so that should be a Cherokee 140 which is a 4 seat fixed gear, fixed prop plane with an 0-320 engine of 150/160 hp.

If he was strait and level then the max speed would have been around 115 knots and if he was diving then closer to 140/150 knots although if it was a one-way trip I suppose breaking VNE doesn't matter.

Cherrie
02-18-2010, 12:57 PM
I work about a mile from the building. The street address is 9420 Research BLVD. If the address you posted is the address for your sisters building, she should be fine, Palo Verde.

Ferret Herder
02-18-2010, 12:59 PM
That's a chilling rant, and it's especially nasty that he signs it with his death year.

But there's something else going on, because why try to take your family with you if you're mad at the IRS?
Sounds like he's bankrupt. Sadly it's not extremely uncommon for men to kill their families before killing themselves if they've lost their jobs/savings, etc., and are at the "screw the world/my boss/my employer/the government" mode of thinking. Link to article about "family annihilators" (http://www.newsweek.com/id/185440), called "Why Ordinary People Murder Their Families."
The killer is convinced that he no longer has the ability to take primary responsibility of his wife and his children. He may have lost his job in an economy that's going south. He may have lost almost every penny in the stock market like many other people today. The husband/father feels that he will never again be able to find another comparable job and thus won't ever be able to take care of his family. He feels a responsibility for the well being of his family and their current existence is so miserable that they would be happier in the hereafter where they can reunite after death.

carnivorousplant
02-18-2010, 01:00 PM
I'm getting a profile of the guy, that matches a lot of what I read in a gun forum I lurk at.

Don't annoy any of them.

Palo Verde
02-18-2010, 01:01 PM
I just got this message from my sister:

No, just immediately across the freeway. The plane flew 70 feet over the top of our building, clipped the Marie Calendar’s parking lot lights, and then turned immediately and slammed, full throttle into the first/second floor of the Echelon building. The guy set his house on fire first and then ran into the IRS office.



We can see it all from our parking garage.



So she's OK then. Great news!

Furious_Marmot
02-18-2010, 01:05 PM
From the website:

Translation: I tried to game the tax codes for my own benefit, took the advice of other attempted tax-dodgers, and got caught.

Then, after I was caught, I pretended that I was doing it as a political protest.

Duke
02-18-2010, 01:10 PM
No, it depends on what the rest of the numbers are. If it's a 140 then it's an 0-320. Pa-28 represents a series of aircraft including an Arrow.


And on further review (sorry 'bout that, Dad), some of the engines for the PA-28 weren't even built by Lycoming. Hopefully by tomorrow night when I see him the news agencies will have their story straight about which plane it was.

Duke
02-18-2010, 01:11 PM
So she's OK then. Great news!

Glad to hear your sister is well. Great news indeed!

Broomstick
02-18-2010, 01:20 PM
And on further review (sorry 'bout that, Dad), some of the engines for the PA-28 weren't even built by Lycoming. Hopefully by tomorrow night when I see him the news agencies will have their story straight about which plane it was.
Don't forget - there are also reports it was a Cirrus - another low-wing 4 seat airplane. I think we're better off waiting until there is a definitive identification of the airplane.

Chessic Sense
02-18-2010, 01:40 PM
I think President Obama knew this was going to happen, but he let it happen to justify a war against Texas. Then he'll use that as an excuse to invade New Mexico.

Anamorphic
02-18-2010, 01:43 PM
I think President Obama knew this was going to happen, but he let it happen to justify a war against Texas. Then he'll use that as an excuse to invade New Mexico.I'm hearing reports (which I just made up) that there was a van full of Nebraskans cheering when the plane hit.

fuzzypickles
02-18-2010, 01:46 PM
Thank goodness this guy wasn't Muslim, or Fox News would be claiming this was yet another terrorist attack that happened on Obama's watch. :rolleyes:

Then he'll use that as an excuse to invade New Mexico.
Hold on...there's a New Mexico??

Magiver
02-18-2010, 01:48 PM
And on further review (sorry 'bout that, Dad), some of the engines for the PA-28 weren't even built by Lycoming. Hopefully by tomorrow night when I see him the news agencies will have their story straight about which plane it was.CNN (http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/02/18/intentional.plane.crash/) interviewed an eye witnessed who has 4000 hrs of instructor flying time in a 140 and positively identified the plane. My experience with them is with the Lycoming 0-320 (my Piper Colt has an 0-320 pulled from a 140).

Tapioca Dextrin
02-18-2010, 01:48 PM
I just drove by coming back from the store and it's rubberneck city :rolleyes:

Death of Rats
02-18-2010, 01:57 PM
But there's something else going on, because why try to take your family with you if you're mad at the IRS?

So they don't have to pay the "death tax"? He was a tax protester, after all.

Tom Tildrum
02-18-2010, 02:26 PM
1. Guy's from Texas.

2. Guy has a hatred of the Catholic Church.

3. Guy tries to re-interpret the tax code to his advantage.

I'm getting a profile of the guy, that matches a lot of what I read in a gun forum I lurk at.

The denunciations of George W. Bush, for-profit health care, and capitalism may not fit that profile. This guy just sounds like he was angry at everything.

Biotop
02-18-2010, 02:29 PM
Geez. Not another nut using that tired "definition of insanity...blah blah...same actions expecting different results blah blah blah..."

A real definition of insanity I could get behind is "setting the family house on fire and then flying a plane into a building."

Magiver
02-18-2010, 02:30 PM
Wow, what a rant. Where to start. It sounds like he tried to scam the IRS with a phony church. Then he talks about not being able to fly (because of 9/11 security restrictions) and that hurt his ability to travel on business. Any pilot will tell you it costs more to fly privately than commercially. He then talks about NOT filing his taxes because he didn't make any money that year. He then blames the accountant for not including (his wife's) income of $12,700.

It looks like he suffered from serious mental problems.

Translucent Daydream
02-18-2010, 02:30 PM
If it hasn't been posted yet, here is a link to his manefesto/suicide letter. Language alert, but its not super bad.
http://www.star-telegram.com/news/story/1978748.html
(Fort Worth Paper)

BrainGlutton
02-18-2010, 02:34 PM
Wow, what a rant. Where to start. It sounds like he tried to scam the IRS with a phony church. Then he talks about not being able to fly (because of 9/11 security restrictions) and that hurt his ability to travel on business. Any pilot will tell you it costs more to fly privately than commercially. He then talks about NOT filing his taxes because he didn't make any money that year. He then blames the accountant for not including (his wife's) income of $12,700.

It looks like he suffered from serious mental problems.

In the sense that stupidity is a mental problem, yes.

Johnny L.A.
02-18-2010, 02:38 PM
The denunciations of George W. Bush, for-profit health care, and capitalism may not fit that profile. This guy just sounds like he was angry at everything.

I haven't had time to read his suicide note. I was just going on what was posted earlier.

Here are comments from that other board:
we could use a ot more comakaza pilots, especially about the white house
Another of a growing number of signs that people have had enough of predatory government.
I see very little in the treatise to disagree with, personally. The points he makes are VALID...like it or not.

It will be interesting to watch the pro-con debate.

For all you hand-wringers that abhor 'violence'...UNLESS, of course it comes from a jack-booted thug..the man took action to fight for what he considered right.

To be fair, there are those there calling him a coward and a murderer. But most of them seem to agree with the man's frustrations. So my earlier post was taking into account the sort of thing these guys write, along with the limited information I had at the time.

Magiver
02-18-2010, 02:52 PM
In the sense that stupidity is a mental problem, yes.When you read through the whole letter he comes off very narcissistic in the way he thinks he doesn't have to pay taxes.

Hippy Hollow
02-18-2010, 02:57 PM
Palo Verde, glad your sis is okay. My realtor's office is in Echelon IV, but they moved last week. :eek:

I live in the subdivision next to the kook's house. I actually could see the smoke plume from my house in Wells Branch. Drove down Mopac to work and could see the blown out side of the Echelon building.

Like several of you, I'm wondering why he targeted that small IRS operation when the big-assed facility is down south at 35 & Woodard.

Last I heard one person is not accounted for. One victim has been flown to San Antonio for burn treatment. I don't know why these nutjobs always have to take innocent people out. Or why we give them the ace spot on the evening news for their death rants. :(

suranyi
02-18-2010, 03:01 PM
I am an engineer who graduated from college at about the same time he did, and I have NO idea what he's talking about when he references the tax law changes in 1986 that caused him such problems. I'm sure it's just as idiotic as everything else he ranted about, but what is the real issue here?

Magiver
02-18-2010, 05:33 PM
His rant starts out saying that the letter was started months ago for therapeutic reasons. If he was under a doctor's care then his medical license was void.

fuzzypickles
02-18-2010, 05:51 PM
In the sense that stupidity is a mental problem, yes.
More selfish than stupid, I think. In fact, these mass murderers always seem to possess an overblown sense of self-entitlement, as if they are the only ones in the world who shouldn't be allowed to suffer hardship. They claim to be victims of "the system," but in fact they are the ones who are victimizing themselves.

At least we can take comfort in the fact that these murderous nimrods are very rare, no matter what the media wants us to think.

Kolga
02-18-2010, 09:39 PM
I posted this in the other thread about this event.

There are Facebook fan clubs about this guy. Some have been removed by Facebook, but others are popping up. "Joe Stark is a hero!" etc.

Fly a plane into a building because you're pissed at the American government's domestic policies, and you're a hero with fan clubs.

Fly a plane into a building because you're pissed at the American government's foreign policies, and we bomb your country. Well, not yours. One near yours. That has citizens who look like you. Kinda.

dhkendall
02-18-2010, 09:53 PM
I posted this in the other thread about this event.

There are Facebook fan clubs about this guy. Some have been removed by Facebook, but others are popping up. "Joe Stark is a hero!" etc.

Fly a plane into a building because you're pissed at the American government's domestic policies, and you're a hero with fan clubs.

Fly a plane into a building because you're pissed at the American government's foreign policies, and we bomb your country. Well, not yours. One near yours. That has citizens who look like you. Kinda.

And a couple thousand less deaths. And a difference in the nationality of the grudger.

But other than that, yeah, those defending Joe are nuts.

(Not being sarcastic (really), just pointing out more differences and truly believe that Joe doesn't deserve a fan club any more than the Taliban does.)

Hippy Hollow
02-18-2010, 10:15 PM
More selfish than stupid, I think. In fact, these mass murderers always seem to possess an overblown sense of self-entitlement, as if they are the only ones in the world who shouldn't be allowed to suffer hardship. They claim to be victims of "the system," but in fact they are the ones who are victimizing themselves.

At least we can take comfort in the fact that these murderous nimrods are very rare, no matter what the media wants us to think.

Especially given that their MO is usually to kill innocent bystanders. It's not like they're killing themselves, which is pretty selfish in its own right, but always whomever happens to be near their malfeasance. I doubt very seriously the person he killed had anything at all to do with his tax problem, but that didn't seem to matter.

Markxxx
02-18-2010, 10:37 PM
You have to realize when life knocks you back time and time again, you want to lash out.

I'm not saying it's right, but that's how you feel.

For instance, I've been out of work for a long time. Last Christmas I applied in a one month time at 130 places for Christmas work and got nothing. That's in addition to my regular job hunting. I got knocked back, treated rudely and wound up with nothing to show for my efforts.

I can understand how people run amok. I'm not saying it's right or I'd do it but I now can understand, if you get knocked back and treated shabby, even if you deserve it or it's your fault, then the natural reaction is to lash out.

Now you're saying, but that's different, this guy had weird and far out ideas, it's not like being out of a job. Correct it's not, but the feeling of being kicked around and knocked back is the same, whether the cause of that is legitimate or not

I'm not saying it's right, I'm saying it's how it is.

pravnik
02-18-2010, 10:49 PM
I have very little sympathy for a guy who says he has money troubles who thinks the solution is to burn down the house he owns (and that his wife and 12 year old daughter live in), drive the car he owns to the airport hangar space he rents, and try to murder people by crashing the airplane that he also owns.

Broomstick
02-18-2010, 11:48 PM
Gotta agree with that - when I started having money problems the airplanes were the first thing I gave up. And I didn't hurt anybody. Nor will I.

Sure, life can suck. That doesn't excuse arson and murder.

PlainJain
02-19-2010, 12:04 AM
1. Guy's from Texas.
Spork thy, Johnny son. Like no one from anywhere else is bad. I really respect you but that's a bit of a broad brush.

: (

mhendo
02-19-2010, 01:45 AM
Spork thy, Johnny son. Like no one from anywhere else is bad. I really respect you but that's a bit of a broad brush.

: (Did you even read what he wrote?

Johnny was making a specific comparison to a person (or persons) that he encounters on another forum that he reads. He was not simply saying, "Well, the guy's from Texas, so what do you expect?"

Tom Tildrum
02-19-2010, 06:04 AM
Actually, the guy'd lived much longer in California than he had in Texas.

Vinyl Turnip
02-19-2010, 06:41 AM
When you read through the whole letter he comes off very narcissistic in the way he thinks he doesn't have to pay taxes.

Funny, I know quite a lot of people who share that narcissism! Guess I should be scanning the sky for planes more often.

lieu
02-19-2010, 07:52 AM
I just got this message from my sister:
<snip>
So she's OK then. Great news!I was glad to read this yesterday. With a sister and her family in Austin myself, I shared your concern. Mine are fine too but my niece came uncomfortably close to otherwise. She had turned off Mopac onto 183 yesterday morning, had the plane fly directly above her and witnessed it crash into the building. She told my folks it was surreal, like watching a movie unfold in front of you and that her ititial thought was that it was another 9/11 scenario unfolding. She's only 20 and I think it traumitized her pretty good. I'm so glad that in the shock of watching this unfold that she and the other drivers didin't inadvertently plow into each other.

I tried to call last night but haven't spoken to her yet. If she's anything else to share I'll update this later.

DiosaBellissima
02-19-2010, 10:21 AM
Typical tax protester that I see every week in my line of work.

Usually, they come in because the IRS is levying everything they've got (ie: 90% of their paycheck, draining their bank account, etc.) because of a back tax debt and the big scarlet A that goes along with being identified as a tax protester. See, the trick about it is that while the IRS can be a formidable force, the folks they really go after are the tax protesters. The people that get criminally prosecuted? Many of them are tax protesters and not regular tax payers. And it makes sense in theory at least- the tax protesters actively gather other folks, feeding them all kinds of inane bullshit (AND charging innocent- though dumb- folks tons of money for the pleasure of hearing their BS).

Anyway, often the tax protesters who come in will almost immediately start condescending me that I "don't know how the government works, honey" and ask me things like, "'Now, the 16th Amendment wasn't properly ratified. Do you know what the 16th Amendment is? And what ratified means?" I let them talk, then I point out I have a political science degree and I give them the counter arguments to all the wooey they say. Then, usually, they start accusing me of being a shill for the government, at which point I point out that I do believe our tax system is atrocious and people should be able to handle taxes themselves, BUT the way to change the system is not by breaking the law, but by working within it (just my personal philosophy).

The craziest thing I ever saw was when a tax protester brought in a bunch of paperwork he had gotten from Irwin Schiff (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irwin_Schiff) and left it with me because he claimed it would "blow [my] freakin' mind!" This was about 300 pages that this guy had sent to the government, wrought with spelling errors and grammar errors. To sum up the general idea (from what I remember):

I am not actually a US citizen. I don't agree to the laws of this country and even though I have a Driver's License, Social Security Card, and bank accounts- I was forced under literal violent duress to get them so they don't count. (You might notice that in this guy's manifesto, he uses similar wording-- tax protesters love to justify their use of system stuff by referring to it as coercion and duress).

The protesters believe that the 16th Amendment wasn't properly ratified (there is some basis for this argument, but you can read more about why this isn't the accepted legal position) and even if it was, it doesn't matter- it only applies to businesses, not personal income (also that the "lay and impose tax" part of the Constitution only refers to businesses as well). Case law directly opposes this stand point.

Finally, the zaniest (to me) is the idea that the United States of America doesn't exist. We're actually a confederation of independent nations, so the tax protester is a citizen of their independent state, not the US. In the case of the one I was reading, he actually said he was a citizen NOT of California, but of the Bear Flag Republic (o hai, 1846 26 day government). They use the state flag as evidence of this. Anyway, as a citizen of the State, they have no obligation to pay federal taxes. Oh, but they do toss in that, btw, they don't have to pay state taxes either because the Bear Flag Republic he said he was a member of earlier? Yeah, jk, that doesn't exist either.


Good gravy.

jayjay
02-19-2010, 10:31 AM
In the case of the one I was reading, he actually said he was a citizen NOT of California, but of the Bear Flag Republic (o hai, 1846 26 day government). They use the state flag as evidence of this.

Aren't these the same flag-obsessed people who claim that if the flag in the courtroom where you were convicted of tax evasion has gold fringe that proves it's not a valid government courtroom or something?

DiosaBellissima
02-19-2010, 10:33 AM
Aren't these the same flag-obsessed people who claim that if the flag in the courtroom where you were convicted of tax evasion has gold fringe that proves it's not a valid government courtroom or something?

Indeed they are.

jayjay
02-19-2010, 10:34 AM
Indeed they are.

It's like political calvinball.

Polycarp
02-19-2010, 10:41 AM
The Master speaks. (http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1115/is-u-s-income-tax-invalid-because-ohio-wasnt-legally-a-state-when-the-16th-amendment-was-ratified)

Johnny L.A.
02-19-2010, 10:58 AM
Spork thy, Johnny son. Like no one from anywhere else is bad. I really respect you but that's a bit of a broad brush.

: (

I knew someone was going to object to that.

I did not mean to impugn every citizen of Texas. But Texas is a 'red state', and taken as a whole it does have a stereotype (much to the chagrign of the liberals there). The other site I mentioned has some Proud Texans in it. Actually, many of those people are in the Midwest. Drive through central California, and you'll see similar attitudes.

So: I didn't mean to offend. I was just using 'shorthand'.

garygnu
02-19-2010, 11:01 AM
Not knowing the details, I wondered why this crash got more pub than the Palo Alto crash with the Tesla folks.
Then I heard the why's and wherefore's and thought, "Oh, death and taxes..."

cmyk
02-19-2010, 11:57 AM
Not knowing the details, I wondered why this crash got more pub than the Palo Alto crash with the Tesla folks.
Then I heard the why's and wherefore's and thought, "Oh, death and taxes..."

Well, that, and wasn't the former an accident, and the latter a murder/suicide (and an untypical, fiery one at that)?

When I first heard the initial reports on this one, I just felt there was something hinkey about it.

Waffle Decider
02-19-2010, 09:12 PM
Well, it looks like the media (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100220/ap_on_re_us/us_plane_crash_small_planes) has started pondering if general aviation is a security risk.

Pilots were not subject to baggage checks, metal detector scans or pat-downs. And they are usually not required to file flight plans.

Security check is pointless if the airport doesn't have any airline traffic. I also never quite understand the media's obsession with filing flight plans.

At the Georgetown airport, where 240 small aircraft are based, manager McLain said she hopes Stack's suicidal attack doesn't lead to an overreaction.

"I would hope that common sense and cooler heads would prevail," McLain said.

Indeed. Let's hope one nutcase doesn't ruin it for everyone. :(

Magiver
02-19-2010, 09:51 PM
Well, it looks like the media (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100220/ap_on_re_us/us_plane_crash_small_planes) has started pondering if general aviation is a security risk.
( And what would a security check or a flight plan do in this case? Honestly, reporters have no clue.

Broomstick
02-19-2010, 11:14 PM
Frankly, I'm surprised it took this long for that sort of "security risk" story to show up.

I think the flight plan business is connected to the weird idea a lot of the general public has that air traffic control somehow has a "remotely turn off airplane engine" button next to their desks.

Magiver
02-20-2010, 12:04 AM
I think the flight plan business is connected to the weird idea a lot of the general public has that air traffic control somehow has a "remotely turn off airplane engine" button next to their desks. that would explain a couple of flights I've been on. They should give more warning.