Poll: Which terms do your use for the two sides of the abortion debate?

[Annie-Xmas]

This (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=553122) thread has been sidetracked by terms used by me to describe the two sides of the abortion debate. Apparently anti-abortion people don't like being called "anti."

So what terms do you prefer?

[Czarcasm]

I went for choice #2.

[Giles]

I like "pro-choice" and "anti-choice" myself.

[Czarcasm]

I like "pro-choice" and "anti-choice" myself.I think she was just going with the most common terms used.

[MeanOldLady]

Agreed, but that wasn't an option.

[Rushgeekgirl]

I like "pro-choice" and "anti-choice" myself.

That's actually the two I use.

[Ferret Herder]

I know people who prefer to call themselves both pro-choice and anti-abortion, in that they feel the choice should be legal and easily available to women, but that they themselves are very much against having abortions and feel it's not a moral thing to do. That's why I tend toward "pro-choice" vs. "anti-choice."

[Cat Whisperer]

I used to say pro-choice and pro-life, but looking at the options, I realized that the actual debate is pro-choice and anti-abortion. I'd say most people who don't want anyone to get abortions aren't pro-life; they're just anti-abortion (and anti-choice too, frankly).

[One And Only Wanderers]

I go with pro-choice and pro-life, mainly because that seems to be what they call themselves. My opinion of whether the tag they have chosen fits them notwithstanding.

[LonghornDave]

None of those are good terms. It does not serve a rational debate to use any of them. You may as well use the terms baby killers and women en-slavers instead. The terms people should use are pro abortion rights and anti abortion rights.

Pro choice is a vaguely positive term that doesn't really mean anything. Anti-choice is just as ludicrous only it also serves to demonize the other side of the debate directly. Pro life doesn't work because it assumes that everyone agrees that a fetus is life. It's also way too vague. Pro abortion and anti abortion don't work because anyone with a moral compass should think that abortions are negative events; therefore who would be for them and who wouldn't be against them.

The debate is whether women should have the right to have an abortion and how extensive that right should be. People should not use loaded terms and the terms used should be as specific to the debate as possible.

[Tom Scud]

I prefer "anti-life" and "pro-female-slavery".

(in point of fact, I think pro-life and pro-choice are the names the movements have chosen and ought to be used, even though especially "pro-life" seems to me disingenuous).

[villa]

At the moment, pro-choice and pro-life. Because I am trying to be civil about it. Unfortunately the civility doesn't seem to run both ways, and I am close to the more accurate pro-choice and medieval.

[bengangmo]

I am both pro-choice and anti-abortion, so I am not sure that I like the choices offered./

I think abortion should be readily available, but not "easy" per se. But what defines "easy"? IF its akin to having a mole removed - too easy, if the woman has to face a veritable gauntlet - too hard.

At the end of the day, its a woman's decision to make, and that takes primacy, no matter how much I would prefer that babies not be aborted.

[DianaG]

I think abortion should be readily available, but not "easy" per se. But what defines "easy"? IF its akin to having a mole removed - too easy, if the woman has to face a veritable gauntlet - too hard.
I'm asking genuinely here... why should it be any harder than having a mole removed? Is it only okay to have an abortion if you have to suffer for it a little?

Personally I use pro-choice and anti-choice, because they are the most accurate. "Anti-abortion" is, however, far more accurate than "pro-life".

[Jackmannii]

"Pro-abortion rights" and "anti-abortion rights" work for me.

"Baby killers" and "Coercive fundamentalist swine" seem a bit...polarizing.

[LonghornDave]

Do you people honestly believe that pro choice is an accurate term? In my opinion it is a meaningless term. You may as well use the term Pro Good.

[bengangmo]

I'm asking genuinely here... why should it be any harder than having a mole removed? Is it only okay to have an abortion if you have to suffer for it a little?

Personally I use pro-choice and anti-choice, because they are the most accurate. "Anti-abortion" is, however, far more accurate than "pro-life".

I dunno, quite frankly I don't want to put myself into the camp of "life is sacred and begins the day of conception" but I do think there is something special going on, and once a pregnancy reaches the stage of needing "an abortion" (as opposed to morning after pill) I think there should be a little more going on than removing an annoyance.

Part of this might come from the fact that it took us four years to get pregnant, part might be that my wife had a miscarriage and had to go to hospital to have the "baby scraped out".

Part might also come from the fact that I think in this day and age I feel people get too wound up with the "right time" and "planning life" as though something can be planned - sometimes you just need to do things, whether the moment is perfect or not.

Part may also be that I myself would have been aborted if such things were around and easy when I was born, and then what of me?

[DianaG]

once a pregnancy reaches the stage of needing "an abortion" (as opposed to morning after pill) I think there should be a little more going on than removing an annoyance.
Not sniping, but just FYI, the "morning after pill" is, quite literally, a morning (or up to 3ish mornings) after pill. It's what you take if you had unprotected sex. Lots of pregnancies result from protected sex, and you don't know about them until it's far too late for the morning after pill.

- sometimes you just need to do things, whether the moment is perfect or not.
No offense dude, but maybe YOU "have to" do it. I'll choose for myself.

Part may also be that I myself would have been aborted if such things were around and easy when I was born, and then what of me?
Me too. And then, nothing of me, which, as it happens, is of no consequence to me at all. :)

[Really Not All That Bright]

"Pro-abortion rights" and "anti-abortion rights" work for me.

"Baby killers" and "Coercive fundamentalist swine" seem a bit...polarizing.
Do you people honestly believe that pro choice is an accurate term? In my opinion it is a meaningless term. You may as well use the term Pro Good.
Thises.

[bengangmo]

Not sniping, but just FYI, the "morning after pill" is, quite literally, a morning (or up to 3ish mornings) after pill. It's what you take if you had unprotected sex. Lots of pregnancies result from protected sex, and you don't know about them until it's far too late for the morning after pill.

Not to worry, and yeah - I know (I understand the pill is effective for up to 72 hours).

See my personal position is that there should ideally be a pretty strong reason for an abortion. I don't want to put myself into the position of judging just what is valid and invalid in the individual case, as every case will be different.

I do think though that "its inconvenient" or "I want to get settled in the new house first" or " I am close to a promotion at work" don't quite cut it as valid reasons - unless there are pretty extreme riders to those cases (as in - our old house is infested with dengue mosquitos making it positively dangerous to live there ourselves, let alone take a baby there)

Maybe there's a bit of logical inconsistency there - its just that it is, and should always be the ladies choice - so long as its a carefully considered and thought through choice.

I don't feel that a doctors visit, plus a visit to an appropriate (neutral) psychologist is too unreasonable?

[Skald the Rhymer]

I voted for "pro-abortion" and "anti-abortion."

[bengangmo]

No offense dude, but maybe YOU "have to" do it. I'll choose for myself.




Yep, you will, should and that's the way it should be - after all, you're the one that's gonna turn into a blimp :D, go up one (or maybe two) cup sizes :cool: pee six times a night :eek: and then try to squeeze a basket ball through a garden hose:(

[Czarcasm]

[Moderator Note]I suggest that any debate about abortion itself be taken to Great Debates.[/Moderator Note]

[DianaG]

See my personal position is that there should ideally be a pretty strong reason for an abortion.
Alternatively, I think that one should have a strong reason for having a baby. Certainly a better reason than "because I got pregnant".

It makes no sense to say "It's her choice as long as it's a good enough reason". The whole point is that it's her choice, and you don't get to decide what reason is good enough.

[Elendil's Heir]

I go with pro-choice and pro-life, mainly because that seems to be what they call themselves. My opinion of whether the tag they have chosen fits them notwithstanding.

Seconded, even though I'm pro-choice and concede I'm yielding a tactical point to the other side by giving them their term of, um, choice.

[Really Not All That Bright]

Seconded, even though I'm pro-choice and concede I'm yielding a tactical point to the other side by giving them their term of, um, choice.
You really are pro-choice. :D

[bengangmo]

Alternatively, I think that one should have a strong reason for having a baby. Certainly a better reason than "because I got pregnant".

It makes no sense to say "It's her choice as long as it's a good enough reason". The whole point is that it's her choice, and you don't get to decide what reason is good enough.

er? Poking finger at me for what?

Ain't I already said that I don't want to be sitting in judgement?

And that whatever you determine to be a good reason, is a good reason?

I simply feel that if you are pregnant, there should be a pretty strong (strong to the individual) reason for not progressing with the pregnancy. I feel the default should always be to continue with a pregnancy.

But hey - your body, your choice

[Czarcasm]

er? Poking finger at me for what?

Ain't I already said that I don't want to be sitting in judgement?

And that whatever you determine to be a good reason, is a good reason?

I simply feel that if you are pregnant, there should be a pretty strong (strong to the individual) reason for not progressing with the pregnancy. I feel the default should always be to continue with a pregnancy.

But hey - your body, your choice[Moderator Note]I strongly suggest that any debate about abortion itself be taken to Great Debates, because I'd rather not start handing out warnings.[/Moderator Note]

[iamthewalrus(:3=]

Trying to frame the debate with labels is, in my opinion, a fairly cheap and shallow tactic that sets you up to belittle and dismiss. I use the labels that most adherents choose for themselves, and argue for what I think is right with substantive arguments.

[Giles]

Trying to frame the debate with labels is, in my opinion, a fairly cheap and shallow tactic that sets you up to belittle and dismiss. I use the labels that most adherents choose for themselves, and argue for what I think is right with substantive arguments.
There's one big problem with that: allowing one side to label itself "pro-life" suggests that the other side is "anti-life". Using labels can define what the argument is all about.

[boytyperanma]

I generally use pro-choice and pro-life. I respect people having in opinion on either side. Those two options seem to be ones chosen by each side to describe their position.

[Malacandra]

There's one big problem with that: allowing one side to label itself "pro-life" suggests that the other side is "anti-life". Using labels can define what the argument is all about.

And indeed allowing one side to label itself "pro-choice" suggests that the other side is "anti-choice" and indeed that the "pro-choice" side is all about anything other than one particular choice. So I'll play fair and refer to both sides by the term they prefer for themselves, and neither side by the term the other prefers for them, and if there's any arguing to be done, we can pick it up from there.

[DianaG]

Erm... the terms refer to a discussion about one particular choice. People who are against offering that choice are anti-choice. People who are in favor of offering that choice are not anti-life.

[Superfluous Parentheses]

I don't see an "abortion debate" in the terms that the OP stated; there are a few people who are categorically against abortions over here, but I haven't met any of them - but that's mostly because I don't live in the US.

[Cat Fight]

I voted for Pro-Choice and Pro-Life, though I'm sure I've used Anti-Abortion before, and as I mentioned before I'd probably use Pro-Reproductive Choice more often if it weren't so wordy. Anti-Reproductive Choice would be its equivalent, I guess. I don't mind using Pro-Life so much, because at this point I think it's got more than a hint of irony considering some of the people who go by the term.

[The wind of my soul]

My friend sends me e-mails using the term anti-choice, which enfuriates me to no end since I'm pro-life. That's when my officemate suggested that I responded to her by calling her anti-life.

I generally use the term pro-choice, but when people start to get obnoxious ....

[Malleus, Incus, Stapes!]

I don't spend a lot of time talking about abortion, but I guess in my head I use #4. I mean, that's what it comes down to. Not lofty abstract ideals like "life" or "choice"- but abortion or no abortion.

[Chessic Sense]

Unfortunately the civility doesn't seem to run both ways, and I am close to the more accurate pro-choice and medieval.

Damn right, it doesn't run both ways. One side is completely civil while the other side thinks it's OK to kill a baby so long as they've never seen it.

See how easy that was? It wasn't a substantive point. It was a paper-thin attack on the other side. That's the problem with using labels that the other side doesn't like. As soon as you call me "anti-abortion" or anything other than "pro-life", you've set yourself up as a person not interested in debating or discussing anything.

Calling my side "pro-life" doesn't mean that you acquiesce to my belief that a fetus is alive anymore than me calling someone a Muslim makes me worship Muhammad. When you say "He is pro-life", it means "He holds views consistent with the pro-life side of the abortion debate." There's no mystery to what that term means, so there's no danger in using it.

It all comes down to politeness and civility. Do I run around calling the Democrats "the Demagogues", even though I think it's a much more accurate term? Not unless I'm trying to be insulting. So when you start a thread by using a term for one side that they don't use themselves, it automatically creates a non-civil atmosphere.

[DianaG]

So if the pro-choice side chose to call themselves The Ones Who Are Right, you'd be perfectly willing to go along with that, for the sake of civility?

[Der Trihs]

"Pro-choice & Anti-abortion" generally. "Anti-choice" is accurate but just sounds awkward to me for some reason.

[Todderbob]

I generally use "Pro-Choice" and "Anti-choice" when referring to the legal issue as to whether or not a woman should be allowed to choose to have an abortion.

However, I use "pro-abortion" and "anti-abortion" when I'm talking about whether we actually should abort fetus'.


I'm anti-choice, pro-abortion. Damnit woman, you don't get a choice. No go make me a sammich.




What? Not funny? I thought it was hilarious. I'm Pro-choice, but against abortions, personally.

[figure9]

None of those are good terms. It does not serve a rational debate to use any of them. You may as well use the terms baby killers and women en-slavers instead. The terms people should use are pro abortion rights and anti abortion rights.
I agree.

[Strinka]

It depends on the context. I'm willing to call them "pro-life" when engaging in a debate, but I think "anti-abortion" is generally more accurate.

[iamthewalrus(:3=]

So if the pro-choice side chose to call themselves The Ones Who Are Right, you'd be perfectly willing to go along with that, for the sake of civility?I think, in that case, most pro-lifers would be only too happy to let those they disagree with make fools of themselves.

I'm not sure what I'd do if one side wanted to call itself "The Strawmen", though.

[The Great Sun Jester]

Picked option #1, but would like to have seen:

"Meddlesome, heartless, self-righteous fuck" and "Humans dealing as best they can with the cards they got dealt."

I've known a lot of women who've had abortions. None of them looked at it as "birth control" as much as "the less sucky choice."

[Hawkeyeop]

For me not being pro doesn't necessarily imply being anti. If I asked you if you wanted a brownie or cake for dessert, and you picked a brownie, doesn't mean you are anti-cake. I think women's rights is important. I think protecting an embryo is more important. Pro-life, although flawed, is a much more accurate term than anti-choice.

[Cat Whisperer]

Great debate thread to prevent warnings. :) (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=12154530#post12154530)

[thelurkinghorror]

What, no anti-choice and pro-death?

[Czarcasm]

Picked option #1, but would like to have seen:

"Meddlesome, heartless, self-righteous fuck" and "Humans dealing as best they can with the cards they got dealt."

I've known a lot of women who've had abortions. None of them looked at it as "birth control" as much as "the less sucky choice."[Stern Moderator note]And I would like you to dial it back to a level more appropriate for this forum immediately. If you can't act like an adult and control yourself, take it here (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=12154530#post12154530). The same goes for anyone else who feels they can't stick to the OP.[/Stern Moderator Note]

[rinni]

I chose that I say "pro-choice" and "pro-life". As to why, I do not use the terms with any hidden intent; it's honestly just because those are the most commonly used terms, as far as I've noticed. If I were to say "I'm pro-choice", or "She's pro-life", people would know what I was talking about.

[Nava]

Wrong question:

there are more than two sides.

[Dangerosa]

I call people what they choose to be called - so pro-choice and pro-life - understanding that there are many shades of grey and that someone can be personally pro-life and politically pro-choice - or you can be pro-choice, but support some limitations. Or you can be pro-life, but support abortion in some cases. People and their opinions don't tend to fit into little boxes.

[lindsaybluth]

I think she was just going with the most common terms used.

I like "pro-choice" and "anti-choice" myself.

I've given money to NARAL, and they use "anti choice" in their emails, so it's not uncommon. But in everyday conversation, I don't hear people use "anti choice". I try to, however.

[Crafter_Man]

I use Pro-life & Pro-death.

[Skald the Rhymer]

I use Pro-life & Pro-death.

Most persons I know who support abortion rights oppose capital punishment.

Most persons I know who oppose abortion rights support capital punishment.

You see a problem with your fomulation?

[Really Not All That Bright]

I use Pro-life & Pro-death.
Bit unfair to the anti-abortion crowd to label them as pro-death, isn't it? :dubious:

[Napier]

I use the terms "pro-choice" and "pro-life" to identify people who most often seem to use those terms to identify themselves, but I dislike both terms, because they appear to indicate that one group is against choice per se, and another group is against life per se. I think the most accurate terms would be "for legalizing abortion" and "for prohibiting abortion".

[Stratocaster]

Bit unfair to the anti-abortion crowd to label them as pro-death, isn't it? :dubious:Was that a typo or a whoosh? Pro-choicers would be the pro-death portion of that list (not that I'm suggesting that's the appropriate name).

If it was just a typo, then, yes, it's a bit unfair, similar to the term "anti-choice."

This debate always goes the same way. There's a certain tribe (I'm among them) who say, "Call 'em both what they prefer to be called." Then there are the factions who see their choice of term as unambiguous and logical, unlike those other guys who have chosen a politically charged non sequitur for their moniker. No one is ever convinced otherwise.

In reality, both sides selected a name that has positive connotations, implies something negative about the opposition, while being overly broad and imprecise. Both sides.

[Crafter_Man]

Pro-choicers would be the pro-death portion of that list
Correct.